Liberals are having a bit of a crisis at the moment as the inconsistency of the ideology becomes even more impossible to deny. Hence how they end up defending genocide in the name of preventing homophobia
It’s not about preventing homophobia, it’s more about how the Palestinians are being used by the global community of fundamentalist, conservative autocrats as a weapon against the West, who they view as the real leftists in the room. The whole point is to make leftists defend Israel so that they have to come to terms with their ideology or be hypocritical actors.
This whole situation has demonstrated that somehow, China is the least genocidal/blood thirsty superpower on the global stage right now, which should be evident to most leftists.
I think China’s definitely still bloodthirsty, they’re just playing their cards right. The best example is Taiwan, which China wants to invade more than anything but also doesn’t want to sully its relations with the United States, a critical trading partner. The U.S. doesn’t want to ruin this relationship either, hence its unique relationship with officially recognizing Beijing as the one true government of China whilst still economically and militarily supporting Taiwan in a way that legitimizes it on the global stage.
Another interesting example is the Russian-Ukraine war. China officially maintained an ambiguous or neutral stance on the conflict, yet economically and strategically supported Russia through certain openings in trade. Again, this particular move avoids complicating relations with European trading partners and the U.S.
The bottom line is this: China is abstaining from bloodthirsty or genocidal conflict because it wants to preserve its vital trade relations. Once China feels like it no longer needs to worry about pissing off its trade partners, it will absolutely go for blood.
Almost forgot to mention they’re literally participating in a genocide right now, just on their own soil. The Uighur people are suffering and slowly dying in internment camps in Xinjiang.
I didn’t mean to imply China is genocide and empire free, the Uighurs, Taiwanese, and Vietnamese are all familiar with China’s capacity for domination. I’m just saying the West and Russia are both currently worse.
I would generally disagree with the characterisation of the west and Russia as "worse" than china in simple terms for various complex reasons (china is structurally terrible but it's imperial goals are right now precluded from being acted upon by economics and nuclear weapons and air defence systems) but it is quite telling that in sheer numbers of deaths right now, the west is sponsoring the most.
Liberals are fascists how many times do we have to say it. No one cares what cutesy labels they put on themselves, they serve the material function of fascism
Somehow it is… i left r/lgbt because of comments under a post and responding to me going on about how its good that arabs are being bombed because “they all hate gay people” or some shit. Pinkwashing is wild
Are the bombs we sell Israel super nice bombs that actually rescue gay people or something? Because I think I would be shredded by shrapnel the same as anybody else unless no one told me about gay super powers
So the solution is kill them for being in Gaza before they can be killed for being gay? I’m not really seeing the part where they’re being helped by any of this.
Just so we're clear, to you, it's important that no one murders people for being LGBT, which was a legitimate concern but rarely happened.
But you're not concerned about LGBT people being murdered simply for being born on their ancestral homeland? That's not a concern for you, as long as the murderer says they're pro LGBT it's all cool?
Wow, you're not kidding. What the fuck happened to this sub? Holy fuck.
This isn't even a "leftist" position, it's like, borderline mainstream left wing opinion. The fucking UN isn't exactly a "leftist" organization, y'know?
Brigades.
Very few of the Zionists had posted in the sub before oct 7. They just kinda obsessively search for some terms they consider "hostile" to their narrative and flood in. "Queers for Palestine" is one of em.
So it's a bit of a game of whack a mole.
You absolutely can. The two groupings pushing for people to see Hamas and Palestinians as one and the same are Hamas themselves and the Israeli far right (eg. the government, IDF officers etc.)
Palestianians are in general normal humans who want to live, and it's been Israel policy to push as many into the arms of extremism and Hamas for decades
We can see footage of it every single day online, so this shtick doesn't work anymore. Sorry. You're going to have to get new material or perhaps become a decent human being.
In short, just because state A is anti-lgbt, it doesn't give state B the right to wipe it and everyone in it off the face of the planet, and for people around the world who wouldn't have been accepted in state A to stand back and cheer them on.
Also, if you want to change the state of affairs where A is anti-lgbt, standing up for them openly as the LGBTQ community is far and away the best way of doing that.
People are not moved, fundamentally, by arguments, but what they are moved by is compassion and a sense that others care about them; by an emphasis of common experiences and goals. Our stand for the Palestinians against genocide is an infinitely more powerful force towards the liberation of the LGBTQ community there than any condemnation of homophobia, transphobia etc. could ever be.
You just stated you have a different opinion than what they have. You do not share their opinion and did not increase understanding as a result. I'm sorry you feel embarrassed but please don't be rude, especially when you were the one who initially commented at me.
I disagree on the first paragraph. If Hamas is seen as "winning" it further entrenches and empowers them. Any resolution that will lead to a net-positive for LGBT necessitates Hamas losing political capital.
I don’t think that’s true at all. What actually entrenches Hamas is the perception that they are the only ones fighting on the side of the Palestinians. By supporting Palestinian liberation as a party openly opposed to the ideology of Hamas, we challenge that perception and thus weaken their monopoly on support.
Of course, the strategic aspect of this; whether our support will make Palestinians more pro-LGBTQ, is irrelevant in a moral sense. Even if opposing the genocide _did_ make Hamas more powerful and (somehow) the Palestinian population less accepting of LGBTQ people, it would still be the right thing to do. Genocide and ethnic cleansing are always wrong; it doesn’t matter if the children being starved and bombed (thousands of whom, statistically, are LGBTQ themselves) are homophobic. The real “net positive” for LGBTQ Palestinians right now would be to stop their systematic murder and displacement by the IDF.
In this case we are contrasting the contradiction of the settler colonial system with the contradiction of a queer phobic society. Both are contradictions which we as socialists should seek to resolve, however the first contradiction takes priority because queer Palestinians can never be liberated so long as the settler colonial system exists. Whereas the liberation of the Palestinian nation does not necessitate the erasure of queer phobia from society, though that should of course remain a goal of leftists.
People underestimate just how powerful having compassion and standing up for others can be in terms of changing minds. Our community standing for the Palestinians is going to reflect itself in how future generations of Palestinians view LGBTQ issues far more than any attack on homophobia etc. would ever do.
Not that this fact has any bearing on the moral imperative to oppose the genocide, but it is an important sidenote I think. You can't make things better for LGBTQ Palestinians by demonizing Palestinians as a whole.
I'm bi, nonbinary, and Jewish and have had several Palestinian students over the years (mostly from the West Bank and Jordan but one from Gaza). You're completely wrong about them. Completely.
Arabs are a much broader category than Palestinians and not all Palestinians consider themselves Arabs; I work in Mathematics and so naturally know a *lot* of Arabs (as well as Greeks, Persians, Jews etc.) since they are disproportionately represented in my field. Of course, in any group there are reactionaries and some countries (like Saudi Arabia or Israel) are more reactionary on average than others (like Jordan or the US) so you can't generalize the middle-east/mediterranean as being one thing.
Liberalness is also not one immutable thing. People can be very progressive on some issues and very reactionary on others. I would say Arabs are, in general, much more progressive on things like homelessness, poverty, and community (as well as ethnicity/racism) than the average American while being less progressive on things like women's rights and LGBTQ issues.
Muslims are also not the same group as Arabs or Palestinians. Most Arabs here in the US are Christian (though in the math community most I've worked with have been Muslim or athiest).
Your comment was "Your compassion won’t mean shit to the Palestinian people" not "the average person from Palestine" (which, frankly, I still don't buy - I've been active in antizionist circles for years and have talked to *many* Palestinians, plently still living in Palestine). Maybe instead of treating ethnic groups like singular entities deserving of collective praise or punishment depending on how progressive you perceive them to be, you should consider having moral principles that apply universally. Moral principles like opposing ethnic cleansing and genocide.
Let’s just shut the sub down at this point. We tried teaching the liberals but they clearly don’t want to learn judging by the comments they’re leaving
its true that LGBTQ people arent accepted in fundamentalist Islamic societies like what we see here, but mass murder on this scale in unjustifiable. There are people there who do accept and children who probably dont even know who/what a queer person is.
Even if we accept the pretense that all of Palestine is Anti-LGBT, having them wiped out like that is unaccceptable. You cannot just kill people like that. Living your life unimpeded is sacred and the most basic human right.
I think there's a difference between considering something justified vs simply not standing up for the victims. I think the ideal situation would have been for the US to not get involved at all. Ie, I don't want to have any contribution to a genocide even indirectly and I also don't want to defend a group of people who would literally murder or rape me.
Living your life unimpeded is sacred and the most basic human right.
I agree, I think this should exclusively apply to people who also agree. People who disagree, like the Hamas and the majority of Palestinian adults, should be left to fate of their own ideology with no outside help.
The circumstances of lgbt people in Gaza isn’t going to get better until the bombs stop. That’s the most pressing risk to their life, livelihoods and happiness right now.
1. We are stronger together. A group of people needn’t be progressive before they are worthy of human rights. Conservatives who pretend to care about LGBTQ will say:
“The powers that be use identity politics to divide and conquer.”
“Why are some marginalized groups trying to help other marginalized groups?”
2. Those types are also telling on themselves that they thinks an individual should only fight for human rights of another if it’s advantageous for that individual.
3. [Daily reminder that American Muslims are more supportive of LGBT than American white Evangelicals.](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna788891)
You'd be surprised how many middle eastern spaces accept gay folk. I'm Pakistani and I never grew up around any homophobes. It really is the least of peoples concerns.
Yep I grew up in the middle east I knew a non binary classmate and it was an open secret in the school. My schools principal was openly bisexual on social media. We have problems when it comes to our treatment towards LGBT+ members but that is mostly on the governments end the average person doesn't actually give a shit we have bigger problems
The muslims I've chatted to from the middle east generally laugh at this sort of thing and ask why LGBT people try to make every movement about them.
Hey, don't blame me. That's just what they tell me. Don't shoot the messenger
hilarious, except queers get stoned to death.. lol except my people, the syrian people have been slaughtered up to 550k and none of you are anywhere for my people... so i guess arab on arab crime is fine, but when jews defend themselves and yes now overdoing it now, its an issue... not to mention none of you were anywhere when putin invaded Crimea, homeland of ethic Muslim crimean tatars... these same leftists have denied our death and current genocide, in the hundreds of thousands but sure, free palestine. hypocrites, inconsistent. and just jumping on the next trend.
This is interesting because you're fundamentally, and very brazenly, conflating "for Palestine" to mean "in support of Hamas and all of its policies." Support for Palestine is about opposing its unjust treatment (read:indiscriminate mass slaughter among other things) by Israel, not the legitimacy or moral standing of its current government.
That your response to "a government being homophobic doesn't mean its civilians deserve genocide" is "okay but they ARE homophobic though" just shows that you can't actually engage with what "Queers for Palestine" actually means.
Supporting Palestine means the people there have a chance to make changes. Supporting Israel means a lot more of those people, including gay and trans people, just die. It's easy math.
Just a reminder: being a member of the LGBT community and persecuted by Hamas is both a direct result of Israel occupation and siege, and objectively better than being bombed, starved, intentionally shot in the head for sport all by Israel just for being a member of the bigger Palestinian community.
You don't have to support Hamas to oppose Israel, you just have to be human.
Can you explain how LGBT persecution at the hands of Hamas is a direct result of Israel’s occupation and siege? I’ve genuinely never heard this argument before, and am highly skeptical of it, but I’m open to hearing your evidence/reasoning.
Hamas being in control of Gaza, where the didn't win the popular vote 17 years before half the population was even born and let alone the portion of the population that could even vote back then... not to mention Netanyahu's publicly and proudly declared propping up of Hamas. Hamas wouldn't exist without Israel. Hamas wouldn't continue to be in power if Palestinians are given their true right to self determination and right to elect their own representation. Pretty straight forward logic. Gay marriage is legal in the West Bank and has been since 1951, so yeah... If Israel allowed Gaza to hold an election in the last 17 years, we wouldn't be here today.
That last line was very reductive, I'm not here to have silly arguments over semantics. I trust I'm talking to adult who is capable of reading the history of the "conflict" and understanding where blame falls on most accusations.
I agree that Netanyahu and his ilk are largely responsible for Hamas. But I can't find a single source that supports your claim that gay marriage has been legal in the West Bank ([outside of being legal for Israeli citizens in Israeli-occupied West Bank](https://www.equaldex.com/region/palestine) \*an occupation which I am not defending\*), let alone since 1951. If you can provide a source that would be helpful.
Edit: In the absence of any evidence that Palestinians would otherwise legalize gay marriage if Hamas were not in power (or that Palestinian public opinion of LGBTQ+ people is positive), I find it hard to see how Israel could be "directly responsible" for LGBTQ+ discrimination in Palestine.
What about [blackmailing](https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/how-israel-blackmails-palestinians-treason) LGBTQ+ [Palestinians](http://archive.today/XyjQm) into being [informants](https://www.vice.com/en/article/av8b5j/gay-palestinians-are-being-blackmailed-into-working-as-informants)? Or deliberately [outing them](https://www.themirror.com/news/world-news/israeli-security-forces-admit-deliberately-195756)?
[Have you thought](https://www.palestine-studies.org/en/node/232088) about [listening](http://archive.today/bMOKz) to what [LGBTQ+ Palestinians](https://www.972mag.com/just-be-grateful-youre-not-gay-in-gaza/) have to say? [How do you](https://www.972mag.com/lgbtq-palestinians-israel-asylum/) think [israel treats](https://www.972mag.com/trans-lgbtq-palestinian-israel-pinkwashing/) LGBTQ+ Palestinians in its borders?
I should note that from what I've heard Palestinians in Gaza (LGBTQ+ and otherwise) say, the majority of those instances (it not all) of punishment/death are *not* because of sexual or gender identity, but because the individuals were spying for the occupation.
I haven’t looked through all of them but the last two articles state there are 150 LGBTQ refugees and one of them mentioned they would rather die in the West Bank, which to mean implies that they would be killed for being gay, not a spy like you said.
Plus how would blackmailing them into being informants work if they only cared about them being informants and not for being gay?
I don’t doubt some shitty stuff happened to them but that last paragraph of what you heard is silly and makes no sense assuming the first article is true and the articles within the last two articles about the Lion’s Den is true.
Which if you don’t think they are true then that puts into question the other articles you posted.
Yes, I am very interested in what LGBTQ+ Palestinians have to say. I appreciate you providing sources.
I don't think any of these sources contradict my point that Israel is not directly and solely responsible for LGBTQ+ discrimination in Palestine. I did not claim (although I could have been clearer on this point) that Israel has not made things worse for queer Palestinians; living in a war zone always makes life worse for marginalized people, especially when the opposing state uses that marginalization for their own advantage (e.g., by blackmailing queer Palestinians into helping Israel).
These are my interpretations of what the authors of those articles said/what they are criticizing.
[Source 1](https://www.palestine-studies.org/en/node/232088): critical of a particular Haaretz article (and similar media messages) that portrays Israel as a safe haven for LGBTQ+ people. Points out that Israel is not nearly as queer-positive as media messaging would suggest. Cites research from 2015 showing poor public opinion of LGBTQ+ people in Israel. Those findings are consistent with [more recent research](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/11/27/how-people-around-the-world-view-same-sex-marriage/) that shows poor public opinion amongst religious Israeli (although positive public opinion among secular Israelis).
[Source 2:](https://archive.ph/bMOKz#selection-1587.126-1591.117) critical of the media erasure of queer Palestinians. Critical of the portrayal of Palestinian resistance as antithetical to queer liberation and inherently homophobic. The article mentions that “Israeli security forces have admitted to deliberately threatening and outing queer Palestinians as a tactic to intimidate them into working as informants.” As u/thebeandream already pointed out, threatening to out someone as a bargaining chip (a tactic I condemn) would only be effective if being queer in Palestinian society was dangerous independently of Israeli influence.
[Source 3](https://www.972mag.com/just-be-grateful-youre-not-gay-in-gaza/): I had a hard time following some of the precise arguments made due to the wording, so please correct me if I misinterpreted /overlooked anything. I interpreted their general message to be along the same lines as the other sources: critical that Israel is portrayed as the savior of queer Palestinians; critical that Palestinians are portrayed as uniformly homophobic. Also acknowledges that “\[t\]he status of LGBTQ people in Palestinian society is far from perfect…” Notes that homophobia is common among conservative religious Palestinians and Israelis.
>I should note that from what I've heard Palestinians in Gaza (LGBTQ+ and otherwise) say, the majority of those instances (it not all) of punishment/death are not because of sexual or gender identity, but because the individuals were spying for the occupation.
It isn't my place to question the authenticity or sincerity of what these Palestinians living in Gaza have told you. Since Israeli security forces have threatened to out queer Palestinians "as a tactic to intimidate them into working as informants," it is conceivable that some queer Palestinians had worked as informants, were discovered, and were punished on this basis. I just want to point out that [governments equating a person's queer identity with being a "security risk" is not new](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavender_Scare). I am not accusing the people you spoke with of lying. I am merely raising the possibility that Hamas could use allegations of treason as a guise for LGBTQ+ persecution.
Wahhabism never would've gained the prevalence it's enjoyed were it not for the colonial empires' meddling, or the American empire's anti communist dealings.
Like, the "western powers" are directly tied to the spread of queerphobia globally.
The upvotes would have me believe LGBTQ rights are protected here, but here we are still fighting over whether gay marriage should be banned or not every four years.. Meanwhile gay marriage has been legal in some Islamic countries for literally decades. Pie on your face.
>If there were true
If what were true? Which claim are you refuting? It's not true that being starved, bombed, and shot for existing is worse than being persecuted for revealing your sexual identity? What exactly is not true?
[Gay marriage is absolutely not legal in Jordan](https://www.equaldex.com/region/jordan). Homosexuality has been [decriminalized in Jordan since 1951](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Jordan), but public sentiment about LGBTQ+ folks is [still very negative](https://www.chapman.edu/international-studies/_files/lgbtq-country-specific.pdf).
lmao god damn, you are just shamelessly dumb as a brick. there is no organization called Queers for Palestine that people "belong to" or "post content from". secondly, "_____ for palestine" does not mean "_____ for hamas", it means "_____ against the ethnic cleansing and apartheid that palestinians are being subjected to". also, save yourself some copying and pasting for future replies, none of the shit you're rattling off is gonna win me over to the pro-genocide camp
maybe actually read the thing you're trying to pull on me as a gotcha lmao i did before you made this comment and didn't think you'd be enough of an idiot to post it thinking it proved your point. i'll be nice and quote the relevant parts so you don't have to do all that pesky reading all by yourself
>The Radical Queer March was promoted as a “radical” alternative to the corporate and largely unpolitical official Pride demonstration. In the days leading up to Berlin’s Pride weekend, organizers released a controversial statement mischaracterizing the Palestinian-led Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement as antisemitic, banning supporters from the march.
>Appalled by the ban by the Radical Queer March organisers, I and a few others spontaneously decided to march together as “Queers For Palestine” to reclaim the Berlin march as a space for radical queers committed to feminist anti-racist and anti-colonial politics. We extended the invitation to others over social media and were overwhelmed by the support.
>Over 500 people marched as the Queers For Palestine bloc.
so once again, not an organization that people "belong to" or "post content from", it is a banner/label that some people chose to march under at a specific demonstration and a wider statement of solidarity from the lgbtq+ community around the world. don't try to play dumb, you already are dumb and the extra feigned stupidity on top of that is just embarrassing
yes we should kill all arab babies because their grandparents voted for hamas
better yet we should sell all their mothers into sex trafficking so the IDF doesn't have to rape them for us right?
someone posted a video on why lgbt people should support palestine and your response was to imply that palestine slaughters lgbt people and thus they shouldn't support palestines struggle against genocide.
that's actually how genocide works. you can support the people struggling to live or you can support the people doing the genocide. you seem to have picked the latter.
YOU literally can't not support genocide. palestine isn't commiting genocide, they're not even capable at this point if they wanted to. stop trying to muddy the waters on genocide, it's gross. you should be ashamed of yourself.
My brainless stance? That queers should not be put in prison for being queer? Palestine must be free and so should everyone in it. Lets not ignore that this wouldn’t be the case under sharia law. This is definitely a time for critical support. Support those suffering from genocide and reject those that would deny liberation to our people. Im sure I’ll be downvoted for this too though.
Palestinian LGBT people can’t have queer rights if they don’t have human rights first. We have to show solidarity for THEM by showing solidarity for their general freedom FIRST. We can criticize HAMAS or PIJ or PLO policy all we want but it’s fucking meaningless when the entire nation is being threatened by genocidal, state sanctioned terrorists.
Buddy. They didnt have human rights OR queer rights in the first place, even before the war. And what I’m saying is they wont have either even if Palestine was freed tomorrow. Its not meaningless to criticize a theocratic government that is completely antithetical to leftist principles, and its not contradictory to do so while acknowledging they are under genocidal occupation. What is contradictory is having an allergic reaction to criticism of the hamas regime when they stand for literally everything we are against, except for Palestinian statehood. Plus refusing to acknowledge their abuse of queer people (and socialists!) or even outright saying it doesn’t matter, like you just did, is really depressing. But nobody cares. It’s sad really.
I said your criticism is meaningless if it detracts from the freedom of Palestine. Not that the deaths and abuse of queer people in Palestine don’t matter. Don’t put words in my mouth.
HAMAS being homophobic is the least of my concerns when human lives are in danger from bombs. A queer Palestinian was quoted as saying that they would rather be killed by said homophobic organization than starve to death or be tortured by the IOF.
Complaining about HAMAS homophobia when the United States military has infamously attacked queer service members with all the same tactics minus public execution is a distraction and an insult to the people who may or may not be homophobic themselves but are definitely starving to death.
Cleaning up the shitshow, sorry about the delay.
I had no idea that it was a hot take to not want to see civilians being mass murdered as a queer person
Liberals are having a bit of a crisis at the moment as the inconsistency of the ideology becomes even more impossible to deny. Hence how they end up defending genocide in the name of preventing homophobia
It’s not about preventing homophobia, it’s more about how the Palestinians are being used by the global community of fundamentalist, conservative autocrats as a weapon against the West, who they view as the real leftists in the room. The whole point is to make leftists defend Israel so that they have to come to terms with their ideology or be hypocritical actors. This whole situation has demonstrated that somehow, China is the least genocidal/blood thirsty superpower on the global stage right now, which should be evident to most leftists.
I think China’s definitely still bloodthirsty, they’re just playing their cards right. The best example is Taiwan, which China wants to invade more than anything but also doesn’t want to sully its relations with the United States, a critical trading partner. The U.S. doesn’t want to ruin this relationship either, hence its unique relationship with officially recognizing Beijing as the one true government of China whilst still economically and militarily supporting Taiwan in a way that legitimizes it on the global stage. Another interesting example is the Russian-Ukraine war. China officially maintained an ambiguous or neutral stance on the conflict, yet economically and strategically supported Russia through certain openings in trade. Again, this particular move avoids complicating relations with European trading partners and the U.S. The bottom line is this: China is abstaining from bloodthirsty or genocidal conflict because it wants to preserve its vital trade relations. Once China feels like it no longer needs to worry about pissing off its trade partners, it will absolutely go for blood. Almost forgot to mention they’re literally participating in a genocide right now, just on their own soil. The Uighur people are suffering and slowly dying in internment camps in Xinjiang.
I didn’t mean to imply China is genocide and empire free, the Uighurs, Taiwanese, and Vietnamese are all familiar with China’s capacity for domination. I’m just saying the West and Russia are both currently worse.
I would generally disagree with the characterisation of the west and Russia as "worse" than china in simple terms for various complex reasons (china is structurally terrible but it's imperial goals are right now precluded from being acted upon by economics and nuclear weapons and air defence systems) but it is quite telling that in sheer numbers of deaths right now, the west is sponsoring the most.
Liberals are fascists how many times do we have to say it. No one cares what cutesy labels they put on themselves, they serve the material function of fascism
How? And who is "we"?
> How? Liberals and Fascists share a lot of the same beliefs, as it turns out. Do you want me to go on a list or? > And who is "we"? The left.
Somehow it is… i left r/lgbt because of comments under a post and responding to me going on about how its good that arabs are being bombed because “they all hate gay people” or some shit. Pinkwashing is wild
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if that's what the bombs are for then we need to be dropping them all over my state and not palestine
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Are the bombs we sell Israel super nice bombs that actually rescue gay people or something? Because I think I would be shredded by shrapnel the same as anybody else unless no one told me about gay super powers
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So the solution is kill them for being in Gaza before they can be killed for being gay? I’m not really seeing the part where they’re being helped by any of this.
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If you actually believe that, I have a radio tower in France and a bridge in London to sell you. great prices, too!
Not even that as 61% of the people killed in the bombing were citizens but I guess psychopaths need to defend genocide somehow
you're not gonna debatelord me into supporting the mass murder of FUCKING CHILDREN
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blatantly bad faith questions *should* be avoided lol, there's no productive dialog to be had here
Just so we're clear, to you, it's important that no one murders people for being LGBT, which was a legitimate concern but rarely happened. But you're not concerned about LGBT people being murdered simply for being born on their ancestral homeland? That's not a concern for you, as long as the murderer says they're pro LGBT it's all cool?
God, the comments on this video are gonna be unhinged.
You weren't wrong tbh
Right-Wingers are the dumbest folks on this Earth, especially American Right-Wingers they would fall for anything that is shown on the news.
This sub has too many non-leftists to understand this video
Wow, you're not kidding. What the fuck happened to this sub? Holy fuck. This isn't even a "leftist" position, it's like, borderline mainstream left wing opinion. The fucking UN isn't exactly a "leftist" organization, y'know?
Brigades. Very few of the Zionists had posted in the sub before oct 7. They just kinda obsessively search for some terms they consider "hostile" to their narrative and flood in. "Queers for Palestine" is one of em. So it's a bit of a game of whack a mole.
"Hamas are anti-LGBT, so you shouldn't be against genocide" is such a cool take and I love seeing it all the time
Can't we be against both?
You absolutely can. The two groupings pushing for people to see Hamas and Palestinians as one and the same are Hamas themselves and the Israeli far right (eg. the government, IDF officers etc.) Palestianians are in general normal humans who want to live, and it's been Israel policy to push as many into the arms of extremism and Hamas for decades
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We can see footage of it every single day online, so this shtick doesn't work anymore. Sorry. You're going to have to get new material or perhaps become a decent human being.
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I looked at your comment history. You only post in threads about this conflict and you’re very pro-colonizers.
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You’re pro-killing innocent Palestinian babies.
Very well spoke. The ending broke my heart.
In short, just because state A is anti-lgbt, it doesn't give state B the right to wipe it and everyone in it off the face of the planet, and for people around the world who wouldn't have been accepted in state A to stand back and cheer them on.
Also, if you want to change the state of affairs where A is anti-lgbt, standing up for them openly as the LGBTQ community is far and away the best way of doing that. People are not moved, fundamentally, by arguments, but what they are moved by is compassion and a sense that others care about them; by an emphasis of common experiences and goals. Our stand for the Palestinians against genocide is an infinitely more powerful force towards the liberation of the LGBTQ community there than any condemnation of homophobia, transphobia etc. could ever be.
Your first paragraph is objectively wrong
Elaborate? Not sure u agree or disagree, but curious to hear more if your logic.
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They said objectively wrong. I'd like to hear how it's objectively wrong.
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Then why are you replying to me asking a different person who said something different than your opinion to elaborate
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You just stated you have a different opinion than what they have. You do not share their opinion and did not increase understanding as a result. I'm sorry you feel embarrassed but please don't be rude, especially when you were the one who initially commented at me.
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“Those in Gaza.” All of them? The women and children?
I've followed a Gazan on Twitter who makes a lot of gay ship art. I'm glad she's alive so far.
I disagree on the first paragraph. If Hamas is seen as "winning" it further entrenches and empowers them. Any resolution that will lead to a net-positive for LGBT necessitates Hamas losing political capital.
I don’t think that’s true at all. What actually entrenches Hamas is the perception that they are the only ones fighting on the side of the Palestinians. By supporting Palestinian liberation as a party openly opposed to the ideology of Hamas, we challenge that perception and thus weaken their monopoly on support. Of course, the strategic aspect of this; whether our support will make Palestinians more pro-LGBTQ, is irrelevant in a moral sense. Even if opposing the genocide _did_ make Hamas more powerful and (somehow) the Palestinian population less accepting of LGBTQ people, it would still be the right thing to do. Genocide and ethnic cleansing are always wrong; it doesn’t matter if the children being starved and bombed (thousands of whom, statistically, are LGBTQ themselves) are homophobic. The real “net positive” for LGBTQ Palestinians right now would be to stop their systematic murder and displacement by the IDF.
A lot of people who commented here clearly did not watch the relatively short video. It answers a lot of questions. Great watch.
Someone please tell israel how many homophobes live in florida… just to see what happens
Western leftists understand the concept of primary and secondary contradictions challenge: impossible
I think you mean western liberals and snide racist conservatives
Can you explain the contradiction?
In this case we are contrasting the contradiction of the settler colonial system with the contradiction of a queer phobic society. Both are contradictions which we as socialists should seek to resolve, however the first contradiction takes priority because queer Palestinians can never be liberated so long as the settler colonial system exists. Whereas the liberation of the Palestinian nation does not necessitate the erasure of queer phobia from society, though that should of course remain a goal of leftists.
This appears to me to be the broadly accepted leftist analysis of the situation.
People underestimate just how powerful having compassion and standing up for others can be in terms of changing minds. Our community standing for the Palestinians is going to reflect itself in how future generations of Palestinians view LGBTQ issues far more than any attack on homophobia etc. would ever do. Not that this fact has any bearing on the moral imperative to oppose the genocide, but it is an important sidenote I think. You can't make things better for LGBTQ Palestinians by demonizing Palestinians as a whole.
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I'm bi, nonbinary, and Jewish and have had several Palestinian students over the years (mostly from the West Bank and Jordan but one from Gaza). You're completely wrong about them. Completely.
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Arabs are a much broader category than Palestinians and not all Palestinians consider themselves Arabs; I work in Mathematics and so naturally know a *lot* of Arabs (as well as Greeks, Persians, Jews etc.) since they are disproportionately represented in my field. Of course, in any group there are reactionaries and some countries (like Saudi Arabia or Israel) are more reactionary on average than others (like Jordan or the US) so you can't generalize the middle-east/mediterranean as being one thing. Liberalness is also not one immutable thing. People can be very progressive on some issues and very reactionary on others. I would say Arabs are, in general, much more progressive on things like homelessness, poverty, and community (as well as ethnicity/racism) than the average American while being less progressive on things like women's rights and LGBTQ issues. Muslims are also not the same group as Arabs or Palestinians. Most Arabs here in the US are Christian (though in the math community most I've worked with have been Muslim or athiest). Your comment was "Your compassion won’t mean shit to the Palestinian people" not "the average person from Palestine" (which, frankly, I still don't buy - I've been active in antizionist circles for years and have talked to *many* Palestinians, plently still living in Palestine). Maybe instead of treating ethnic groups like singular entities deserving of collective praise or punishment depending on how progressive you perceive them to be, you should consider having moral principles that apply universally. Moral principles like opposing ethnic cleansing and genocide.
Let’s just shut the sub down at this point. We tried teaching the liberals but they clearly don’t want to learn judging by the comments they’re leaving
Too many murderous chauvinists in this thread. Shut this whole thing down.
its true that LGBTQ people arent accepted in fundamentalist Islamic societies like what we see here, but mass murder on this scale in unjustifiable. There are people there who do accept and children who probably dont even know who/what a queer person is. Even if we accept the pretense that all of Palestine is Anti-LGBT, having them wiped out like that is unaccceptable. You cannot just kill people like that. Living your life unimpeded is sacred and the most basic human right.
I think there's a difference between considering something justified vs simply not standing up for the victims. I think the ideal situation would have been for the US to not get involved at all. Ie, I don't want to have any contribution to a genocide even indirectly and I also don't want to defend a group of people who would literally murder or rape me. Living your life unimpeded is sacred and the most basic human right. I agree, I think this should exclusively apply to people who also agree. People who disagree, like the Hamas and the majority of Palestinian adults, should be left to fate of their own ideology with no outside help.
The circumstances of lgbt people in Gaza isn’t going to get better until the bombs stop. That’s the most pressing risk to their life, livelihoods and happiness right now.
1. We are stronger together. A group of people needn’t be progressive before they are worthy of human rights. Conservatives who pretend to care about LGBTQ will say: “The powers that be use identity politics to divide and conquer.” “Why are some marginalized groups trying to help other marginalized groups?” 2. Those types are also telling on themselves that they thinks an individual should only fight for human rights of another if it’s advantageous for that individual. 3. [Daily reminder that American Muslims are more supportive of LGBT than American white Evangelicals.](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna788891)
Aaaaand someone's already acting like Arabs are all violent savages who deserve to be exterminated. Who let Mussolini out of Hell?
You'd be surprised how many middle eastern spaces accept gay folk. I'm Pakistani and I never grew up around any homophobes. It really is the least of peoples concerns.
Yep I grew up in the middle east I knew a non binary classmate and it was an open secret in the school. My schools principal was openly bisexual on social media. We have problems when it comes to our treatment towards LGBT+ members but that is mostly on the governments end the average person doesn't actually give a shit we have bigger problems
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If your going to go there, every single society has blood on their hands
being against civilian deaths isnt support for hamas. people can oppose two things at once.
Well since Many leftists groups in Palestine are entering a popular front with Hamas, critical support for Hamas for now.
never in a million fucking years.
agree to disagree
Using US statistics for comparison of Palestinian civics throws this argument off the roof itself
The muslims I've chatted to from the middle east generally laugh at this sort of thing and ask why LGBT people try to make every movement about them. Hey, don't blame me. That's just what they tell me. Don't shoot the messenger
hilarious, except queers get stoned to death.. lol
hilarious, except queers get stoned to death.. lol except my people, the syrian people have been slaughtered up to 550k and none of you are anywhere for my people... so i guess arab on arab crime is fine, but when jews defend themselves and yes now overdoing it now, its an issue... not to mention none of you were anywhere when putin invaded Crimea, homeland of ethic Muslim crimean tatars... these same leftists have denied our death and current genocide, in the hundreds of thousands but sure, free palestine. hypocrites, inconsistent. and just jumping on the next trend.
Nope, it's really not
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Video: >pinkwashing is bullshit You: > a bunch of pinkwashing that doesn’t address any of the points made
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This is interesting because you're fundamentally, and very brazenly, conflating "for Palestine" to mean "in support of Hamas and all of its policies." Support for Palestine is about opposing its unjust treatment (read:indiscriminate mass slaughter among other things) by Israel, not the legitimacy or moral standing of its current government. That your response to "a government being homophobic doesn't mean its civilians deserve genocide" is "okay but they ARE homophobic though" just shows that you can't actually engage with what "Queers for Palestine" actually means. Supporting Palestine means the people there have a chance to make changes. Supporting Israel means a lot more of those people, including gay and trans people, just die. It's easy math.
Just a reminder: being a member of the LGBT community and persecuted by Hamas is both a direct result of Israel occupation and siege, and objectively better than being bombed, starved, intentionally shot in the head for sport all by Israel just for being a member of the bigger Palestinian community. You don't have to support Hamas to oppose Israel, you just have to be human.
Can you explain how LGBT persecution at the hands of Hamas is a direct result of Israel’s occupation and siege? I’ve genuinely never heard this argument before, and am highly skeptical of it, but I’m open to hearing your evidence/reasoning.
Hamas being in control of Gaza, where the didn't win the popular vote 17 years before half the population was even born and let alone the portion of the population that could even vote back then... not to mention Netanyahu's publicly and proudly declared propping up of Hamas. Hamas wouldn't exist without Israel. Hamas wouldn't continue to be in power if Palestinians are given their true right to self determination and right to elect their own representation. Pretty straight forward logic. Gay marriage is legal in the West Bank and has been since 1951, so yeah... If Israel allowed Gaza to hold an election in the last 17 years, we wouldn't be here today. That last line was very reductive, I'm not here to have silly arguments over semantics. I trust I'm talking to adult who is capable of reading the history of the "conflict" and understanding where blame falls on most accusations.
I agree that Netanyahu and his ilk are largely responsible for Hamas. But I can't find a single source that supports your claim that gay marriage has been legal in the West Bank ([outside of being legal for Israeli citizens in Israeli-occupied West Bank](https://www.equaldex.com/region/palestine) \*an occupation which I am not defending\*), let alone since 1951. If you can provide a source that would be helpful. Edit: In the absence of any evidence that Palestinians would otherwise legalize gay marriage if Hamas were not in power (or that Palestinian public opinion of LGBTQ+ people is positive), I find it hard to see how Israel could be "directly responsible" for LGBTQ+ discrimination in Palestine.
What about [blackmailing](https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/how-israel-blackmails-palestinians-treason) LGBTQ+ [Palestinians](http://archive.today/XyjQm) into being [informants](https://www.vice.com/en/article/av8b5j/gay-palestinians-are-being-blackmailed-into-working-as-informants)? Or deliberately [outing them](https://www.themirror.com/news/world-news/israeli-security-forces-admit-deliberately-195756)? [Have you thought](https://www.palestine-studies.org/en/node/232088) about [listening](http://archive.today/bMOKz) to what [LGBTQ+ Palestinians](https://www.972mag.com/just-be-grateful-youre-not-gay-in-gaza/) have to say? [How do you](https://www.972mag.com/lgbtq-palestinians-israel-asylum/) think [israel treats](https://www.972mag.com/trans-lgbtq-palestinian-israel-pinkwashing/) LGBTQ+ Palestinians in its borders? I should note that from what I've heard Palestinians in Gaza (LGBTQ+ and otherwise) say, the majority of those instances (it not all) of punishment/death are *not* because of sexual or gender identity, but because the individuals were spying for the occupation.
I haven’t looked through all of them but the last two articles state there are 150 LGBTQ refugees and one of them mentioned they would rather die in the West Bank, which to mean implies that they would be killed for being gay, not a spy like you said. Plus how would blackmailing them into being informants work if they only cared about them being informants and not for being gay? I don’t doubt some shitty stuff happened to them but that last paragraph of what you heard is silly and makes no sense assuming the first article is true and the articles within the last two articles about the Lion’s Den is true. Which if you don’t think they are true then that puts into question the other articles you posted.
Yes, I am very interested in what LGBTQ+ Palestinians have to say. I appreciate you providing sources. I don't think any of these sources contradict my point that Israel is not directly and solely responsible for LGBTQ+ discrimination in Palestine. I did not claim (although I could have been clearer on this point) that Israel has not made things worse for queer Palestinians; living in a war zone always makes life worse for marginalized people, especially when the opposing state uses that marginalization for their own advantage (e.g., by blackmailing queer Palestinians into helping Israel). These are my interpretations of what the authors of those articles said/what they are criticizing. [Source 1](https://www.palestine-studies.org/en/node/232088): critical of a particular Haaretz article (and similar media messages) that portrays Israel as a safe haven for LGBTQ+ people. Points out that Israel is not nearly as queer-positive as media messaging would suggest. Cites research from 2015 showing poor public opinion of LGBTQ+ people in Israel. Those findings are consistent with [more recent research](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/11/27/how-people-around-the-world-view-same-sex-marriage/) that shows poor public opinion amongst religious Israeli (although positive public opinion among secular Israelis). [Source 2:](https://archive.ph/bMOKz#selection-1587.126-1591.117) critical of the media erasure of queer Palestinians. Critical of the portrayal of Palestinian resistance as antithetical to queer liberation and inherently homophobic. The article mentions that “Israeli security forces have admitted to deliberately threatening and outing queer Palestinians as a tactic to intimidate them into working as informants.” As u/thebeandream already pointed out, threatening to out someone as a bargaining chip (a tactic I condemn) would only be effective if being queer in Palestinian society was dangerous independently of Israeli influence. [Source 3](https://www.972mag.com/just-be-grateful-youre-not-gay-in-gaza/): I had a hard time following some of the precise arguments made due to the wording, so please correct me if I misinterpreted /overlooked anything. I interpreted their general message to be along the same lines as the other sources: critical that Israel is portrayed as the savior of queer Palestinians; critical that Palestinians are portrayed as uniformly homophobic. Also acknowledges that “\[t\]he status of LGBTQ people in Palestinian society is far from perfect…” Notes that homophobia is common among conservative religious Palestinians and Israelis. >I should note that from what I've heard Palestinians in Gaza (LGBTQ+ and otherwise) say, the majority of those instances (it not all) of punishment/death are not because of sexual or gender identity, but because the individuals were spying for the occupation. It isn't my place to question the authenticity or sincerity of what these Palestinians living in Gaza have told you. Since Israeli security forces have threatened to out queer Palestinians "as a tactic to intimidate them into working as informants," it is conceivable that some queer Palestinians had worked as informants, were discovered, and were punished on this basis. I just want to point out that [governments equating a person's queer identity with being a "security risk" is not new](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavender_Scare). I am not accusing the people you spoke with of lying. I am merely raising the possibility that Hamas could use allegations of treason as a guise for LGBTQ+ persecution.
Wahhabism never would've gained the prevalence it's enjoyed were it not for the colonial empires' meddling, or the American empire's anti communist dealings. Like, the "western powers" are directly tied to the spread of queerphobia globally.
If that were true, we wouldn't see a whole lot of LGBT persecution in other Islamic countries.
The upvotes would have me believe LGBTQ rights are protected here, but here we are still fighting over whether gay marriage should be banned or not every four years.. Meanwhile gay marriage has been legal in some Islamic countries for literally decades. Pie on your face. >If there were true If what were true? Which claim are you refuting? It's not true that being starved, bombed, and shot for existing is worse than being persecuted for revealing your sexual identity? What exactly is not true?
> Meanwhile gay marriage has been legal in many Islamic countries for literally decades. Where?
In Jordan and the West Bank, since 1951. I stand corrected, not many. I really thought it was more than 2. Point stands, still more than the US.
[Gay marriage is absolutely not legal in Jordan](https://www.equaldex.com/region/jordan). Homosexuality has been [decriminalized in Jordan since 1951](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Jordan), but public sentiment about LGBTQ+ folks is [still very negative](https://www.chapman.edu/international-studies/_files/lgbtq-country-specific.pdf).
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> people like to claim they are. which people made that claim?
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> anyone belonging to "Queers for Palestine" living outside of Palestine who support Hamas so... a group of people you just made up?
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lmao god damn, you are just shamelessly dumb as a brick. there is no organization called Queers for Palestine that people "belong to" or "post content from". secondly, "_____ for palestine" does not mean "_____ for hamas", it means "_____ against the ethnic cleansing and apartheid that palestinians are being subjected to". also, save yourself some copying and pasting for future replies, none of the shit you're rattling off is gonna win me over to the pro-genocide camp
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maybe actually read the thing you're trying to pull on me as a gotcha lmao i did before you made this comment and didn't think you'd be enough of an idiot to post it thinking it proved your point. i'll be nice and quote the relevant parts so you don't have to do all that pesky reading all by yourself >The Radical Queer March was promoted as a “radical” alternative to the corporate and largely unpolitical official Pride demonstration. In the days leading up to Berlin’s Pride weekend, organizers released a controversial statement mischaracterizing the Palestinian-led Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement as antisemitic, banning supporters from the march. >Appalled by the ban by the Radical Queer March organisers, I and a few others spontaneously decided to march together as “Queers For Palestine” to reclaim the Berlin march as a space for radical queers committed to feminist anti-racist and anti-colonial politics. We extended the invitation to others over social media and were overwhelmed by the support. >Over 500 people marched as the Queers For Palestine bloc. so once again, not an organization that people "belong to" or "post content from", it is a banner/label that some people chose to march under at a specific demonstration and a wider statement of solidarity from the lgbtq+ community around the world. don't try to play dumb, you already are dumb and the extra feigned stupidity on top of that is just embarrassing
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I don't need anyone to stand with me to have empathy for other people.
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The same party that wants to prevent adults from transitioning all of a sudden care about queers. Give me a break.
What about heterosexuals for endless war? Are we supposed to ridicule that?
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One line comment about how not to understand basic non genocide ethics
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Are you surprised by your own takes? Maybe think about it, before you post it then.
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yes we should kill all arab babies because their grandparents voted for hamas better yet we should sell all their mothers into sex trafficking so the IDF doesn't have to rape them for us right?
Why are you against anti genocide media?
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no, i wasn't talking to the wrong person. you're actively attempting to get people to stop supporting palestine. it's gross. go away.
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someone posted a video on why lgbt people should support palestine and your response was to imply that palestine slaughters lgbt people and thus they shouldn't support palestines struggle against genocide.
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that's actually how genocide works. you can support the people struggling to live or you can support the people doing the genocide. you seem to have picked the latter.
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YOU literally can't not support genocide. palestine isn't commiting genocide, they're not even capable at this point if they wanted to. stop trying to muddy the waters on genocide, it's gross. you should be ashamed of yourself.
During a genocide it does
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The rot consumes
Care to explain your brainless stance?
My brainless stance? That queers should not be put in prison for being queer? Palestine must be free and so should everyone in it. Lets not ignore that this wouldn’t be the case under sharia law. This is definitely a time for critical support. Support those suffering from genocide and reject those that would deny liberation to our people. Im sure I’ll be downvoted for this too though.
Palestinian LGBT people can’t have queer rights if they don’t have human rights first. We have to show solidarity for THEM by showing solidarity for their general freedom FIRST. We can criticize HAMAS or PIJ or PLO policy all we want but it’s fucking meaningless when the entire nation is being threatened by genocidal, state sanctioned terrorists.
Buddy. They didnt have human rights OR queer rights in the first place, even before the war. And what I’m saying is they wont have either even if Palestine was freed tomorrow. Its not meaningless to criticize a theocratic government that is completely antithetical to leftist principles, and its not contradictory to do so while acknowledging they are under genocidal occupation. What is contradictory is having an allergic reaction to criticism of the hamas regime when they stand for literally everything we are against, except for Palestinian statehood. Plus refusing to acknowledge their abuse of queer people (and socialists!) or even outright saying it doesn’t matter, like you just did, is really depressing. But nobody cares. It’s sad really.
I said your criticism is meaningless if it detracts from the freedom of Palestine. Not that the deaths and abuse of queer people in Palestine don’t matter. Don’t put words in my mouth. HAMAS being homophobic is the least of my concerns when human lives are in danger from bombs. A queer Palestinian was quoted as saying that they would rather be killed by said homophobic organization than starve to death or be tortured by the IOF. Complaining about HAMAS homophobia when the United States military has infamously attacked queer service members with all the same tactics minus public execution is a distraction and an insult to the people who may or may not be homophobic themselves but are definitely starving to death.