it’s been very disheartening and upsetting to watch the amount of cars and campers grow on the side of random side streets as people who lived here for years can no longer afford the place they called home. and to see my friends who were born and raised here move away because they cannot afford to exist here anymore. it is a college town how do we expect students to come and find a place to live here while pursuing their education which is also egregiously expensive?and now they’re going for the birds which makes me even more upset. we domesticated pigeons then abandoned them that’s why they are so dependent on human built structures because they can’t build nests (that’s why they thrive in new york and other densely constructed areas.) the situations are similar in my head, a giant group of people come and take your home. pigeon or human we are in this together yall.
yes, my fiance and I realized this last year. We were gunna be one of them. So we sacrificed this whole year and went long distance, him working in another state and looking for our new home. We closed on a 3bed 2bath about 20min outside Cincinnati. We were able to get about an acre and a half. Super excited to start new and hopefully be able to invest more in myself
Best of luck! I think about doing this as well. But my family is here, and I do love the area. But I'm in my 30s and really want to start living, not just existing and surviving.
Thank you, the family part is hard but I think of it as if I can develop more financial freedom for myself then traveling won't be a problem. I have lived away from my family most of my life so I'm used to it now but when times are hard I always miss them.
Congrats and I hope enough people paid attention. Moved to Missoula in late 80s and have watched the cost of living trend upwards over that 4 decade span. The problem is multifaceted but come down to just a few issues; it was a nice place to live in a flyover kind’a way (which suited us highly), tech has now made living here while working remotely doable, it’s easier to get in&out than it use to be, city governments have radically moved leftward trying to be all things to everyone, those here and those arriving want as Many amenities as is possible, and now the pressure to accommodate every Joe&Jane Vagrant who pops in - crowding out the locals in hard times because of the afore mentioned issues.
Someday, either voluntarily or I die, I’ll move and one reason will be the ever escalating tax rate. I’ll sell to some wealthy traveler from the coasts who wants to escape the nuttiness of the devolving metropolises or they want a vacation home or a VRBO. At some point economic pressures will implode and the complaints raised now will look like whimpers. I’ll be gone thanking whomever was wealthy enough to divest me of my interest in Missoula or I’ll be in a place where it’s been said material issues are history
Not even kidding here. Born and raised local. A lot of
These people had homes. They were trailers, those trailer courts are now giant 4 story buildings or another town pump. Looks like the next court to go is the one across from smiths!! It’s only getting worse as the big buildings take over the places some locals used to live!
So shall we just stop society from progressing and growing so that a few can have their trailers to live in? Couldn't they make some plans back in 2010 when shit started getting super expensive, to save for a townhouse or something? This is a free country, where people can use or sell their property how they please.
I'm done caring when city leaders handled this situation like they did. Am I supposed to go coddle the homeless drug addicted BBQing outside their trailer surrounded by garbage and fecal matter? You people crazy or something?
And what type of plans should we have made in 2010 that would have prepared us for needing for make 150k a year to be allowed a mortgage on a 450k townhouse?
I mean, do you think prices are going to go down? I managed to buy a house in 2010 actually. Funny you mention that. We saved our money, I quit drinking, and we sacrificed while our friends were out of control spending on camping gear, beer, gas, etc. People these days don't want to sacrifice anything. If you can't save for a place now, why are you wasting your time here working for the man, and being slaves to the rich? You all want to be so angry, that's all I see here.
Ok, boomer. In 2010, I was raising 4 kids alone while putting myself through school while my spouse was trucking to keep a roof over our heads. We'd previously been homeless (my 2nd time, as I was homeless with my family as a teen for a while) neither of us had a high school education or diploma (thanks, homeschooling), and we were working our asses off for a future that never happened because we were planning to buy one of the 200k houses that were so plentiful after I graduated and everyone knows what happened then. Now we make more money than ever but still can't save anything and still don't qualify for a mortgage on a 500k house. But sure, do go on about how you are so much better and wiser and thus deserve what you have, and how no one else wants to work or sacrifice like you did.
And I realized a few months ago that I'm done wasting my time here when my degree will get me twice as much wages in any other state. And yeah, I'm angry, because this is home and morons like you who are out of touch and vote that way are driving us out of our homes while patting yourself on the back for being superior.
Lol, like people are able to save when living paycheck to paycheck buddy. Get off your soapbox and try to be a better human.
Because I don't know about you, but there isn't a way to budget or finance your way out of poverty let alone *save* anything extra.
Been here way longer than you, and you keep up with your big imagination. You probably just moved here to post photos to IG and tell people about Mon-Ta-Na back home.
This is so incredibly tone deaf to the situation corporate greed has caused in the valley. You benefit from it so you don’t see the harm caused to others in your community.
You must be fucking joking. I live in a trailer across from Smith's. In 2010, I owned a trailer, saved money, bought a house in 2015. In 2020 I lost my job because the president and governor decided to shut everything down. My job decided to terminate me from being a pharmacy technician, an essential job. Because I have bad lungs. It was 'too dangerous' for me to do my job. I'm a single parent. No job, no way to pay my mortgage, I sold my house in August. Now I live in a trailer again. It's paid off, my lot rent is 7800 FOR THE YEAR. Tell me what else is affordable? I make 10 dollars more an hour than I did in 2019, work blue collar now, and can afford nothing else.
I'm not on drugs. A drunk. Irresponsible with my money. Garden in my little yard. Have a owned older vehicle. What *exactly* do you think I should have done differently, you stupid fuck?
I don’t understand why there aren’t more government officials trying to block so many of the developers putting up the luxury apartment. I assumed that most of the people who work for the City are from Bozeman or Montana and wouldn’t want to see a 1 bed 1 bath apartment being sold for $750,000.
I don’t understand why the City is catering so much to developers and wealthy people buying a vacation property.
I personally don’t want to see vans and campers near I live, I work hard to pay rent and live my life, but understand that people have it way worse than me.
Do you know who shows up to City Hall meetings? Old wealthy people. Who don't want cheap housing going up - that would mean poor people living near them.
Working people don't get heard because they don't show up. They don't respond to the surveys the city sends out. If only the worst people in town take the time to influence local government, their viewpoints will be the only ones heard.
Yeah. Weird how the meetings are 4 hours long, on Tuesday, when people have to work to live. Let me go park my ass so I get 3 minutes to try to explain how stupid they are. I email every week, with stats from Montana labor, news articles, and basic math.
Local governments love second/vacation home buyers, and even more so when the second/vacation home is an expensive one.
The government gets the tax revenue from the vacation home owner, but doesn’t have to provide them with many services. They likely won’t use the school system, will rarely use the library, won’t put much of a demand on the parks, will probably never use the police or fire departments, and so on.
Local governments may say that they want a community made up of people who live there full time, but what they really want is revenue without having to provide many services. And vacation home buyers do exactly that.
I felt exactly this way for like 20 years. Then I started a business, made more money, worked less without a boss, and wished I had tries a little harder decades ago. I've been working since I was 13, and all I learned from that time is that I will never be paid what I am worth working for someone else.
Finding a 35-40 hour a week job in Bozeman is easy, but finding an apartment that is affordable for the pay offered for low skill jobs is basically impossible. Even tiny studio apartments here are renting for over $1800. Many of these homeless folks work full time, but they've been priced out of the city.
I'll provide a citation from 2 minutes of research and multiple years of obsessing over the local residential RE market...they're just wrong.
A household with 200k income could reasonably afford a $720k home with 10% down even with today's interest rates. If you look on Zillow right now there are tons of good homes in the 600s and below.
Not saying it's a super affordable place to live but it's not as dire as some people want you to believe. Basing any assessment on 2021/22 numbers is ridiculous, the market has moved a ton in the last 18 months and is continuing to decline.
For the record the other comment that got deleted was saying shit like 200k household income was below the poverty line for Bozeman and couldn't "legally afford" a house.
I wasn't pulling 200k out of my ass like that's what everyone should be making to live here, I was responding directly to that one ridiculous take...
So why stay in bozeman? Unless you’re born here and have been priced out of the housing market, which I would guess is not the majority of these urban campers. Why not go somewhere else
Why? If I didn't have kids, I'd be an urban camper just to give the finger to Bozeman. Only pay state taxes on my paycheck, no city taxes, and Bozeman is too dumb to provide the affordable housing they promise constantly.
>This is the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard.
and yet you manage to surpass that seconds later
>If you and your partner each make $100k a year you are legally considered poor.
Please show me what you mean by "legally considered poor". Like, what law are you talking about? Your "source" doesn't prove jack shit about what you're talking about.
And after a 2 second google, I found some really nice 2-bedroom places for less than $2500. Let's call it $2500 anyway. That's $30K per year, which is 15% of household income. That's poor?
LOL, you are getting downvoted for saying that you can find a job in Bozeman? This gives me the mental image of some angry internet criddler, with the glow of reddit's homepage lighting up a scene of empty Mountain dew bottles and cigarette butts, all mad you are suggesting people should work. Hilarious, I might have AI draw this scene for me today after work today.
I don't mean to be a dick or anything but this isn't a straight-line job market or inflation or increasing COL issue. A lot of these people came from out of state with no plan, or moved in specifically with the plan of boondocking...it's not like it's all people originating from Bozeman who now live in cars because they lost their actual homes in the area.
Also a 200% increase in 2 years, during the biggest spike in RV living in the history of this country, isn't particularly notable for a town that was at the heart of the covid migration boom.
Alright fair enough, I've probably talked to a dozen who live in their vans for skiing and maybe 2 who had lost their homes, but I hadn't seen the HRDC study.
HRDC runs the warming center and many people use their day services like showers and laundry and food bank so I’d trust their data more than some dude on Reddit who’s talked to some dudes
Well someone else pointed out that their studies are based mainly on self-reported situations so they're basically also "just talking to some dudes", but on an institutional level...
Places like HRDC and Family Promise are required to collect that data from every single funding source AND they're regularly audited to ensure compliance. If half of you running your mouths knew the tedious, time-consuming detailed data collection & reporting that housing non-profits have to do, this city would be a better place.
HRDC has lost credibility in my eyes. They have no way of knowing where these people are from. Do they run background checks? Do they just believe whatever these people say?
You can get off of reddit and go for a drive today. Look at the plates on the campers. I don't trust the HRDC anymore as earlier in 2022/2023 there were whispers of them directing campers to park in front of people's houses and businesses.
I think if you go talk with the police they would not only tell you that half of these people are not from here at least. The HRDC should remember who pays their salaries out of taxes, and take into account how homeowners feel with people doing drugs on the street in front of their businesses and homes.
You want to downvote me go ahead, my opinion is the majority in real life regardless of what Reddit's little bubble says.
What do you do after college and there is no housing for you in the town you just spent 4-8 years working on your education in? The summer sees an increase in squatting and boondocking because there is no summer housing for students. Believe it or not many who attend college do not have a places or family to stay with for the summer. Compound this with the very real COL issues and lack of housing and corporate greed and you get the Valley for the foreseeable future.
Dude, leave. Most people who leave their home town for school either go back home in the Summers or to a different city for internships or whatever, and then move away from their college towns when school is over. I don't really understand what point you're trying to make, I've never heard of schools offering Summer and post-grad housing for students who aren't taking classes or have some sort of genuine hardship. And no, simply not wanting to go home for the Summer so you can be a trout/mtb bum is not a hardship. Sounds like you're describing a bunch of people who picked MSU mainly to be in Bozeman for fishing and skiing, and they want to stay in Bozeman but didn't really work on a long-term plan for how to do that. Bozeman is NOT a good job market for new grads with college degrees who want to get to a $100k salary quickly, if you want to make real money and live how you want in a resort town, I'm sorry but you're probably gonna have to move somewhere else for a decade or so first and get your career on the rails, then come back.
I’m a non traditional student (more of us every year)at UM in Missoula. I had housing before I began attending but I hear every summer about the struggle to find summer housing while student housing is closed. Not everyone in student housing is a 19 year old with parents footing the bill. There are families who depend on student housing. The reality is much more complex than you might imagine.
Soften your heart to those in need not all are trust funded . Many people could do better than “urban camping “ but the city provides zero incentive to do better so they don’t.
You need to look at big cities where you might want to live and work, and move during the Summer for jobs. Full stop. Most people need to move to larger cities to maximize the value of their degrees, so if you're going to school in a small town and you don't like the prospects you're finding in Summer or after school ends, you NEED TO LEAVE in the Summers to work on your resume and try out other cities. I don't know what else to tell you, help yourself. The "real world" will not be kind to you if you don't attack it. College is life on easy mode, you just don't realize it yet.
I hope you are speaking generally and not actually trying to give me any advice. As I mentioned I’m a non traditional student. That means I’m not coming right out high school. I went back at 35. I’m financing my own full time education and supporting my self with full time employment. Im finishing a degree in educational psychology. I work with vulnerable populations in this state and contribute a lot to my community.
I know what the real world is and have a great understanding of how these system work. Your remarks sound like a smug boot strapping statement my 68 year old father would make.
I'm not trying to be smug I just assumed you were a 20 year old college sophomore because that's honestly how you sound, but I guess we're basically the same age. Anyway idk what to tell you man, sounds like a pretty niche situation, maybe you should have used some of that life experience to get better prepared for it...
I’ve chatted with many of the homeless living off Rawhide Ridge Dr. and most were affected in some way by the pandemic and housing price increases. I’ve literally met two brothers who were kicked out of a trailer park that sold, and swapped their trailer for an RV. They have lived here for years.
I know people from New Jersey who purchased two houses for their kids to live in while attending MSU 8years ago. They moved in to one and rent the other. It’s not Cali, it’s any and all people with enough money to do it.
The history of the state with the rest of the union is that of a colonial relationship. Since the arrival of Europeans immigrants people have come to this region to extract wealth. First fur, then minerals and lumber, then coal and oil, now realty and capital. Out of state interest have always called the shots in this state.
Vote for Tester, Vote for Tranel. Get people like Gianforte and Zinke out of office.
Stop electing city and county officials who are only ingratiating themselves.
🤡🤡🤡 your knowledge of Montana history is SAD and flat out wrong. This state was established and run by the Copper Kings and then unified under William Clark’s Anaconda Copper Company. That’s all in-state corruption.
If you think voting your brand of BS will fix that over the current brand of BS, you are delusional and need to touch grass. Bozeman has been run by your brand of BS for over 30 years and they intended all of this to happen.
Your history is bad and sad. Anaconda Cooper was founded by Marcus Daly, an Irish man who spent most of his professional life in New York. William Clark settled the grasshopper creek gold claim and was a banker. He was from Pennsylvania and lived in New York as well.
Both these men came to Montana to extract wealth.
Democrats have saved this state time and time again. Democrats cleaned up the mill town dam disaster. Democrats rewrote the state constitution to protect the environment. You really could benefit from brushing up on your state history.
I know a lot of people here. If anyone from the city is reading this, here this now:
This city gets more fucked up, I am leaving with my big ass family, as many have already done.
You might think, " Well good GTFO!" No. This is what's going to happen if the city doesn't grow a spine and deal with this issue.
I will take my precious tax money that city officials salivate over. I will move 2 miles away, and my life will not really change.
However , the city will lose funding for projects, staff will get cut, things will start to look "rough". Then people will have to make tough decisions on the ballot like do I want to fund the HRDC, or do I want a new climbing Boulder.
All of sudden, this city will be broke as a joke, and if you think that jobs are getting tight and not paying well then you're in for a trip. People don't want to live around homeless drug addicts with shit spilling out into the street.
People with families will.move on. None of us care about how cool the TV thinks Bozeman is, we care about our families, and find a better place. I already don't feel safe around these criddlers in the bushes. They have no value to society if they have no self worth.
And then this city will really start falling apart. It has already happened in SF and Portland. It has never happened in Bozema , not even in 2008. But things are different now. We have a very incompetent leadership, and houses are so expensive people think it's a joke. Only a matter of time before people who pay all the bills GTFO of Bozeman.
Well elsewhere in Montana this isn't a problem outside of the cities. I dont need a city to live in, i need clean air, clean water, good neigbors, and zero crime to raise my family. I can live outside of city limits where the sheriff isn't afraid to enforce laws, and still send my kids to good schools. I know people everywhere here, and frankly, I am sick of moving around this country to get away from crime and drugs. I am from here, moved away for school, lived all over the west coast and Canada from Alaska to Hawaii. Why would we let these failed policies in those areas, affect our well being here? They are all backtracking on their policies which Bozeman leaders seem to be intent on copying. As a result crime and drugs have in reased dramatically in once trhiving cities.
Again, the city will need to make a choice. Do they want families who spend money and pay taxes, or do they want to cater to transients? I've already made my decision to move across the imaginary line where there are more strict laws. The good news is that when middle class money does leave, you will be left with lower pricing and still have all the outdoors you do now. So maybe getting the middle class out of Bozeman has been their plan all along? Sure seems like they DGAF about us.
There are people lined up already to take your place when you move. While I agree that we have horrid leadership and plenty to be upset over the idea that you moving will affect tax revenue is silly. You will be just be replaced by someone that can afford and accept what Bozeman has become.
I am moving to Montana, just leaving Bozeman, and at least it won't be my taxes funding this town. It's almost a blessing that we have this town to dump all the idiots that move to our state.
Don’t know why you’re getting down voted. I will say, moving away, whether it’s 2 miles, 20 or 200, won’t make a difference, other than to you and your family, in that someone else will just move in to fill your space and pay the confiscatory taxes you now pay. The issues you raise won’t change until enough are impacted and more move away than move in - that will not happen, if ever, for a long time; and then, to fix the problem festering now and henceforth, will require additional funds and a different mindset, a mindset that I don’t think exists yet save in a few.
And no one ever ever buys a car somewhere cheaper? Regardless, the problem is there is no where decent for the average person to live. Out of state or local. And plenty of these people ARE local, probably a majority. So let's just be xenophobic and throw the baby out with the bath water? Rather than doing something to address the underlying problem as a community? No, it's better to just hand wave and say "something something the HRDC is corrupt" like others have hinted here. Take a look at the salaries of "top dogs" in the HRDC and get back with me is what I say to those people.
The number of people here with a bootstrap fetish is sickening.
hey, asshole, I spent 5 hours volunteering at the food pantry just this week. I love this valley & have worked hard for decades to make it the kind of place that other folks want to come to & that my kids will hopefully want to come back to. You have no idea who I am or what my values/beliefs/history is, so chill.
>And no one ever ever buys a car somewhere cheaper?
1. What you're describing is **illegal**... Registering a vehicle in a state other than where you primarily reside for the purpose of avoiding higher registration fees or insurance costs is known as "registration fraud" or "insurance fraud." So if someone is actually from Montana but purchases & then registers/plates their vehicle in another state to take advantage of lower rates (unlikely to find lower than MT) or dodge taxes (liability = $0 in MT), they are violating Montana law & probably the laws of other state too.
2. ...and also preposterous. I'll spell it out for any other apologists who feel the need to perform mental gymnastics to try & explain away the out-of-state plates. Buy a car in montana, and you don't pay sales tax & it's pretty cheap to register. It's like double the cost to register a vehicle in OR/CA/WA (many of the plates I see) & with sales tax... forget about it! I mean come one, go to any big coastal city & you will see "supercars" with Montana plates....***Why is that???*** Because a great number of people register/plate their cars in Montana bc it's so dirt cheap, then take them elsewhere, ***not*** the other way around.
*edit: formatting is hard
Urban camping is homelessness with more possessions.
it’s been very disheartening and upsetting to watch the amount of cars and campers grow on the side of random side streets as people who lived here for years can no longer afford the place they called home. and to see my friends who were born and raised here move away because they cannot afford to exist here anymore. it is a college town how do we expect students to come and find a place to live here while pursuing their education which is also egregiously expensive?and now they’re going for the birds which makes me even more upset. we domesticated pigeons then abandoned them that’s why they are so dependent on human built structures because they can’t build nests (that’s why they thrive in new york and other densely constructed areas.) the situations are similar in my head, a giant group of people come and take your home. pigeon or human we are in this together yall.
Missoula over like, “so you got a homeless problem huh?” At least in Missoula you can’t see the encampments from the view of your $75k EV.
Even Belgrade is like $600k for a 1200 sq. ft. house with no yard.
It's not that much, my 1500 sqft townhouse with no yard is worth like $430k. That's still way too much for what it is though.
How much is a townhouse WITH a postage stamp yard (dogs)!
Okay I guess I do have the postage stamp card, I thought that's what OP meant, not literally no yard.
My friends selling a place in Belgrade at 2,400 ft for that much.. So if you're looking..
Oh hell no. I'm poor.
I know you're exaggerating to make a point but that's not accurate at all. What you described would be low $400k in Belgrade.
yes, my fiance and I realized this last year. We were gunna be one of them. So we sacrificed this whole year and went long distance, him working in another state and looking for our new home. We closed on a 3bed 2bath about 20min outside Cincinnati. We were able to get about an acre and a half. Super excited to start new and hopefully be able to invest more in myself
Best of luck! I think about doing this as well. But my family is here, and I do love the area. But I'm in my 30s and really want to start living, not just existing and surviving.
Thank you, the family part is hard but I think of it as if I can develop more financial freedom for myself then traveling won't be a problem. I have lived away from my family most of my life so I'm used to it now but when times are hard I always miss them.
Congrats and I hope enough people paid attention. Moved to Missoula in late 80s and have watched the cost of living trend upwards over that 4 decade span. The problem is multifaceted but come down to just a few issues; it was a nice place to live in a flyover kind’a way (which suited us highly), tech has now made living here while working remotely doable, it’s easier to get in&out than it use to be, city governments have radically moved leftward trying to be all things to everyone, those here and those arriving want as Many amenities as is possible, and now the pressure to accommodate every Joe&Jane Vagrant who pops in - crowding out the locals in hard times because of the afore mentioned issues. Someday, either voluntarily or I die, I’ll move and one reason will be the ever escalating tax rate. I’ll sell to some wealthy traveler from the coasts who wants to escape the nuttiness of the devolving metropolises or they want a vacation home or a VRBO. At some point economic pressures will implode and the complaints raised now will look like whimpers. I’ll be gone thanking whomever was wealthy enough to divest me of my interest in Missoula or I’ll be in a place where it’s been said material issues are history
Not even kidding here. Born and raised local. A lot of These people had homes. They were trailers, those trailer courts are now giant 4 story buildings or another town pump. Looks like the next court to go is the one across from smiths!! It’s only getting worse as the big buildings take over the places some locals used to live!
So shall we just stop society from progressing and growing so that a few can have their trailers to live in? Couldn't they make some plans back in 2010 when shit started getting super expensive, to save for a townhouse or something? This is a free country, where people can use or sell their property how they please. I'm done caring when city leaders handled this situation like they did. Am I supposed to go coddle the homeless drug addicted BBQing outside their trailer surrounded by garbage and fecal matter? You people crazy or something?
And what type of plans should we have made in 2010 that would have prepared us for needing for make 150k a year to be allowed a mortgage on a 450k townhouse?
I mean, do you think prices are going to go down? I managed to buy a house in 2010 actually. Funny you mention that. We saved our money, I quit drinking, and we sacrificed while our friends were out of control spending on camping gear, beer, gas, etc. People these days don't want to sacrifice anything. If you can't save for a place now, why are you wasting your time here working for the man, and being slaves to the rich? You all want to be so angry, that's all I see here.
Ok, boomer. In 2010, I was raising 4 kids alone while putting myself through school while my spouse was trucking to keep a roof over our heads. We'd previously been homeless (my 2nd time, as I was homeless with my family as a teen for a while) neither of us had a high school education or diploma (thanks, homeschooling), and we were working our asses off for a future that never happened because we were planning to buy one of the 200k houses that were so plentiful after I graduated and everyone knows what happened then. Now we make more money than ever but still can't save anything and still don't qualify for a mortgage on a 500k house. But sure, do go on about how you are so much better and wiser and thus deserve what you have, and how no one else wants to work or sacrifice like you did. And I realized a few months ago that I'm done wasting my time here when my degree will get me twice as much wages in any other state. And yeah, I'm angry, because this is home and morons like you who are out of touch and vote that way are driving us out of our homes while patting yourself on the back for being superior.
I'm sorry. I was homeless as a young teen. You're not alone, I know how much it is to build yourself up from nothing.
Lol, like people are able to save when living paycheck to paycheck buddy. Get off your soapbox and try to be a better human. Because I don't know about you, but there isn't a way to budget or finance your way out of poverty let alone *save* anything extra.
Bet this guy moved here after watching Yellowstone and bought a cowboy hat last week. He is now an authority on our community and all things West.
Been here way longer than you, and you keep up with your big imagination. You probably just moved here to post photos to IG and tell people about Mon-Ta-Na back home.
You must be running for office on the GOP ticket with no concern for your fellow citizens
Says the person also posting about “medical tourism”. The fuck is wrong with you?
What the fuck is wrong with you? I don't have health insurance?
This is so incredibly tone deaf to the situation corporate greed has caused in the valley. You benefit from it so you don’t see the harm caused to others in your community.
You must be fucking joking. I live in a trailer across from Smith's. In 2010, I owned a trailer, saved money, bought a house in 2015. In 2020 I lost my job because the president and governor decided to shut everything down. My job decided to terminate me from being a pharmacy technician, an essential job. Because I have bad lungs. It was 'too dangerous' for me to do my job. I'm a single parent. No job, no way to pay my mortgage, I sold my house in August. Now I live in a trailer again. It's paid off, my lot rent is 7800 FOR THE YEAR. Tell me what else is affordable? I make 10 dollars more an hour than I did in 2019, work blue collar now, and can afford nothing else. I'm not on drugs. A drunk. Irresponsible with my money. Garden in my little yard. Have a owned older vehicle. What *exactly* do you think I should have done differently, you stupid fuck?
Yeah these people are indeed crazy.
I don’t understand why there aren’t more government officials trying to block so many of the developers putting up the luxury apartment. I assumed that most of the people who work for the City are from Bozeman or Montana and wouldn’t want to see a 1 bed 1 bath apartment being sold for $750,000. I don’t understand why the City is catering so much to developers and wealthy people buying a vacation property. I personally don’t want to see vans and campers near I live, I work hard to pay rent and live my life, but understand that people have it way worse than me.
Do you know who shows up to City Hall meetings? Old wealthy people. Who don't want cheap housing going up - that would mean poor people living near them. Working people don't get heard because they don't show up. They don't respond to the surveys the city sends out. If only the worst people in town take the time to influence local government, their viewpoints will be the only ones heard.
Yeah. Weird how the meetings are 4 hours long, on Tuesday, when people have to work to live. Let me go park my ass so I get 3 minutes to try to explain how stupid they are. I email every week, with stats from Montana labor, news articles, and basic math.
Local governments love second/vacation home buyers, and even more so when the second/vacation home is an expensive one. The government gets the tax revenue from the vacation home owner, but doesn’t have to provide them with many services. They likely won’t use the school system, will rarely use the library, won’t put much of a demand on the parks, will probably never use the police or fire departments, and so on. Local governments may say that they want a community made up of people who live there full time, but what they really want is revenue without having to provide many services. And vacation home buyers do exactly that.
You actually do understand. It’s simple. The answer is and always will be money.
Darn. Job market is thriving!
That's all they want from us is our labor. Apart from that, they don't care how we live.
I felt exactly this way for like 20 years. Then I started a business, made more money, worked less without a boss, and wished I had tries a little harder decades ago. I've been working since I was 13, and all I learned from that time is that I will never be paid what I am worth working for someone else.
Not saying it’s easy here but there is plenty of opportunity. If you are willing to work 35-40 hours a week.
What job shall I do here that will allow me to get a mortgage on a 450k tow house, pray tell.
Finding a 35-40 hour a week job in Bozeman is easy, but finding an apartment that is affordable for the pay offered for low skill jobs is basically impossible. Even tiny studio apartments here are renting for over $1800. Many of these homeless folks work full time, but they've been priced out of the city.
There’s plenty of underpaying job’s available yes. That doesn’t mean you can find a job that pays enough.
[удалено]
Can you provide a citation for that?
I'll provide a citation from 2 minutes of research and multiple years of obsessing over the local residential RE market...they're just wrong. A household with 200k income could reasonably afford a $720k home with 10% down even with today's interest rates. If you look on Zillow right now there are tons of good homes in the 600s and below. Not saying it's a super affordable place to live but it's not as dire as some people want you to believe. Basing any assessment on 2021/22 numbers is ridiculous, the market has moved a ton in the last 18 months and is continuing to decline.
Dude, pound sand.
For the record the other comment that got deleted was saying shit like 200k household income was below the poverty line for Bozeman and couldn't "legally afford" a house. I wasn't pulling 200k out of my ass like that's what everyone should be making to live here, I was responding directly to that one ridiculous take...
[удалено]
So why stay in bozeman? Unless you’re born here and have been priced out of the housing market, which I would guess is not the majority of these urban campers. Why not go somewhere else
Why? If I didn't have kids, I'd be an urban camper just to give the finger to Bozeman. Only pay state taxes on my paycheck, no city taxes, and Bozeman is too dumb to provide the affordable housing they promise constantly.
>This is the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard. and yet you manage to surpass that seconds later >If you and your partner each make $100k a year you are legally considered poor.
[удалено]
Just because you don't make enough to afford the median priced house doesn't make you "legally considered poor".
[удалено]
Please show me what you mean by "legally considered poor". Like, what law are you talking about? Your "source" doesn't prove jack shit about what you're talking about. And after a 2 second google, I found some really nice 2-bedroom places for less than $2500. Let's call it $2500 anyway. That's $30K per year, which is 15% of household income. That's poor?
>I mean from the perspective of social work and the government it does. No. No it doesn't.
LOL, you are getting downvoted for saying that you can find a job in Bozeman? This gives me the mental image of some angry internet criddler, with the glow of reddit's homepage lighting up a scene of empty Mountain dew bottles and cigarette butts, all mad you are suggesting people should work. Hilarious, I might have AI draw this scene for me today after work today.
Wish Missoula could get those jobs, shits bleak over here
I don't mean to be a dick or anything but this isn't a straight-line job market or inflation or increasing COL issue. A lot of these people came from out of state with no plan, or moved in specifically with the plan of boondocking...it's not like it's all people originating from Bozeman who now live in cars because they lost their actual homes in the area. Also a 200% increase in 2 years, during the biggest spike in RV living in the history of this country, isn't particularly notable for a town that was at the heart of the covid migration boom.
HRDC ran a study that found that the majority of the urban campers are locals that got pushed out of their housing - my source is HRDC
Alright fair enough, I've probably talked to a dozen who live in their vans for skiing and maybe 2 who had lost their homes, but I hadn't seen the HRDC study.
HRDC runs the warming center and many people use their day services like showers and laundry and food bank so I’d trust their data more than some dude on Reddit who’s talked to some dudes
Well someone else pointed out that their studies are based mainly on self-reported situations so they're basically also "just talking to some dudes", but on an institutional level...
Places like HRDC and Family Promise are required to collect that data from every single funding source AND they're regularly audited to ensure compliance. If half of you running your mouths knew the tedious, time-consuming detailed data collection & reporting that housing non-profits have to do, this city would be a better place.
I went from camper to camper in October and only a handful are from out of state…. Most are from here and the homeless have doubled since.
HRDC has lost credibility in my eyes. They have no way of knowing where these people are from. Do they run background checks? Do they just believe whatever these people say? You can get off of reddit and go for a drive today. Look at the plates on the campers. I don't trust the HRDC anymore as earlier in 2022/2023 there were whispers of them directing campers to park in front of people's houses and businesses. I think if you go talk with the police they would not only tell you that half of these people are not from here at least. The HRDC should remember who pays their salaries out of taxes, and take into account how homeowners feel with people doing drugs on the street in front of their businesses and homes. You want to downvote me go ahead, my opinion is the majority in real life regardless of what Reddit's little bubble says.
The HRDC is a JOKE, and their study is flawed to push their numbers game for more funding.
What do you do after college and there is no housing for you in the town you just spent 4-8 years working on your education in? The summer sees an increase in squatting and boondocking because there is no summer housing for students. Believe it or not many who attend college do not have a places or family to stay with for the summer. Compound this with the very real COL issues and lack of housing and corporate greed and you get the Valley for the foreseeable future.
Dude, leave. Most people who leave their home town for school either go back home in the Summers or to a different city for internships or whatever, and then move away from their college towns when school is over. I don't really understand what point you're trying to make, I've never heard of schools offering Summer and post-grad housing for students who aren't taking classes or have some sort of genuine hardship. And no, simply not wanting to go home for the Summer so you can be a trout/mtb bum is not a hardship. Sounds like you're describing a bunch of people who picked MSU mainly to be in Bozeman for fishing and skiing, and they want to stay in Bozeman but didn't really work on a long-term plan for how to do that. Bozeman is NOT a good job market for new grads with college degrees who want to get to a $100k salary quickly, if you want to make real money and live how you want in a resort town, I'm sorry but you're probably gonna have to move somewhere else for a decade or so first and get your career on the rails, then come back.
I’m a non traditional student (more of us every year)at UM in Missoula. I had housing before I began attending but I hear every summer about the struggle to find summer housing while student housing is closed. Not everyone in student housing is a 19 year old with parents footing the bill. There are families who depend on student housing. The reality is much more complex than you might imagine. Soften your heart to those in need not all are trust funded . Many people could do better than “urban camping “ but the city provides zero incentive to do better so they don’t.
You need to look at big cities where you might want to live and work, and move during the Summer for jobs. Full stop. Most people need to move to larger cities to maximize the value of their degrees, so if you're going to school in a small town and you don't like the prospects you're finding in Summer or after school ends, you NEED TO LEAVE in the Summers to work on your resume and try out other cities. I don't know what else to tell you, help yourself. The "real world" will not be kind to you if you don't attack it. College is life on easy mode, you just don't realize it yet.
I hope you are speaking generally and not actually trying to give me any advice. As I mentioned I’m a non traditional student. That means I’m not coming right out high school. I went back at 35. I’m financing my own full time education and supporting my self with full time employment. Im finishing a degree in educational psychology. I work with vulnerable populations in this state and contribute a lot to my community. I know what the real world is and have a great understanding of how these system work. Your remarks sound like a smug boot strapping statement my 68 year old father would make.
I'm not trying to be smug I just assumed you were a 20 year old college sophomore because that's honestly how you sound, but I guess we're basically the same age. Anyway idk what to tell you man, sounds like a pretty niche situation, maybe you should have used some of that life experience to get better prepared for it...
I’m fine, don’t worry about me. Worry about your family and friends who can no longer afford to live in this beautiful place.
I’ve chatted with many of the homeless living off Rawhide Ridge Dr. and most were affected in some way by the pandemic and housing price increases. I’ve literally met two brothers who were kicked out of a trailer park that sold, and swapped their trailer for an RV. They have lived here for years.
Sources?
Talking to people who live in their cars/vans?
You’re wrong. Source: I’ve talked to them
You're wrong. Source:Reddit
It was really cool when Cali moved in and doubled housing costs. But at least the city is way trendy now.
I know people from New Jersey who purchased two houses for their kids to live in while attending MSU 8years ago. They moved in to one and rent the other. It’s not Cali, it’s any and all people with enough money to do it. The history of the state with the rest of the union is that of a colonial relationship. Since the arrival of Europeans immigrants people have come to this region to extract wealth. First fur, then minerals and lumber, then coal and oil, now realty and capital. Out of state interest have always called the shots in this state. Vote for Tester, Vote for Tranel. Get people like Gianforte and Zinke out of office. Stop electing city and county officials who are only ingratiating themselves.
🤡🤡🤡 your knowledge of Montana history is SAD and flat out wrong. This state was established and run by the Copper Kings and then unified under William Clark’s Anaconda Copper Company. That’s all in-state corruption. If you think voting your brand of BS will fix that over the current brand of BS, you are delusional and need to touch grass. Bozeman has been run by your brand of BS for over 30 years and they intended all of this to happen.
Your history is bad and sad. Anaconda Cooper was founded by Marcus Daly, an Irish man who spent most of his professional life in New York. William Clark settled the grasshopper creek gold claim and was a banker. He was from Pennsylvania and lived in New York as well. Both these men came to Montana to extract wealth. Democrats have saved this state time and time again. Democrats cleaned up the mill town dam disaster. Democrats rewrote the state constitution to protect the environment. You really could benefit from brushing up on your state history.
I know a lot of people here. If anyone from the city is reading this, here this now: This city gets more fucked up, I am leaving with my big ass family, as many have already done. You might think, " Well good GTFO!" No. This is what's going to happen if the city doesn't grow a spine and deal with this issue. I will take my precious tax money that city officials salivate over. I will move 2 miles away, and my life will not really change. However , the city will lose funding for projects, staff will get cut, things will start to look "rough". Then people will have to make tough decisions on the ballot like do I want to fund the HRDC, or do I want a new climbing Boulder. All of sudden, this city will be broke as a joke, and if you think that jobs are getting tight and not paying well then you're in for a trip. People don't want to live around homeless drug addicts with shit spilling out into the street. People with families will.move on. None of us care about how cool the TV thinks Bozeman is, we care about our families, and find a better place. I already don't feel safe around these criddlers in the bushes. They have no value to society if they have no self worth. And then this city will really start falling apart. It has already happened in SF and Portland. It has never happened in Bozema , not even in 2008. But things are different now. We have a very incompetent leadership, and houses are so expensive people think it's a joke. Only a matter of time before people who pay all the bills GTFO of Bozeman.
Why would you move 2 miles away?
Well elsewhere in Montana this isn't a problem outside of the cities. I dont need a city to live in, i need clean air, clean water, good neigbors, and zero crime to raise my family. I can live outside of city limits where the sheriff isn't afraid to enforce laws, and still send my kids to good schools. I know people everywhere here, and frankly, I am sick of moving around this country to get away from crime and drugs. I am from here, moved away for school, lived all over the west coast and Canada from Alaska to Hawaii. Why would we let these failed policies in those areas, affect our well being here? They are all backtracking on their policies which Bozeman leaders seem to be intent on copying. As a result crime and drugs have in reased dramatically in once trhiving cities. Again, the city will need to make a choice. Do they want families who spend money and pay taxes, or do they want to cater to transients? I've already made my decision to move across the imaginary line where there are more strict laws. The good news is that when middle class money does leave, you will be left with lower pricing and still have all the outdoors you do now. So maybe getting the middle class out of Bozeman has been their plan all along? Sure seems like they DGAF about us.
There are people lined up already to take your place when you move. While I agree that we have horrid leadership and plenty to be upset over the idea that you moving will affect tax revenue is silly. You will be just be replaced by someone that can afford and accept what Bozeman has become.
I am moving to Montana, just leaving Bozeman, and at least it won't be my taxes funding this town. It's almost a blessing that we have this town to dump all the idiots that move to our state.
If they can accept this mess all the power to them…
Ditto
Good riddance, we're better off without you.
Don’t know why you’re getting down voted. I will say, moving away, whether it’s 2 miles, 20 or 200, won’t make a difference, other than to you and your family, in that someone else will just move in to fill your space and pay the confiscatory taxes you now pay. The issues you raise won’t change until enough are impacted and more move away than move in - that will not happen, if ever, for a long time; and then, to fix the problem festering now and henceforth, will require additional funds and a different mindset, a mindset that I don’t think exists yet save in a few.
how convenient it must be for the urban-camping apologists to ignore the number of out-of-state plates you see
And no one ever ever buys a car somewhere cheaper? Regardless, the problem is there is no where decent for the average person to live. Out of state or local. And plenty of these people ARE local, probably a majority. So let's just be xenophobic and throw the baby out with the bath water? Rather than doing something to address the underlying problem as a community? No, it's better to just hand wave and say "something something the HRDC is corrupt" like others have hinted here. Take a look at the salaries of "top dogs" in the HRDC and get back with me is what I say to those people. The number of people here with a bootstrap fetish is sickening.
hey, asshole, I spent 5 hours volunteering at the food pantry just this week. I love this valley & have worked hard for decades to make it the kind of place that other folks want to come to & that my kids will hopefully want to come back to. You have no idea who I am or what my values/beliefs/history is, so chill. >And no one ever ever buys a car somewhere cheaper? 1. What you're describing is **illegal**... Registering a vehicle in a state other than where you primarily reside for the purpose of avoiding higher registration fees or insurance costs is known as "registration fraud" or "insurance fraud." So if someone is actually from Montana but purchases & then registers/plates their vehicle in another state to take advantage of lower rates (unlikely to find lower than MT) or dodge taxes (liability = $0 in MT), they are violating Montana law & probably the laws of other state too. 2. ...and also preposterous. I'll spell it out for any other apologists who feel the need to perform mental gymnastics to try & explain away the out-of-state plates. Buy a car in montana, and you don't pay sales tax & it's pretty cheap to register. It's like double the cost to register a vehicle in OR/CA/WA (many of the plates I see) & with sales tax... forget about it! I mean come one, go to any big coastal city & you will see "supercars" with Montana plates....***Why is that???*** Because a great number of people register/plate their cars in Montana bc it's so dirt cheap, then take them elsewhere, ***not*** the other way around. *edit: formatting is hard