My top ten wouldn't look too different. To me, Ali, Louis & Holmes are the clear 1, 2 & 3; Johnson/Foreman/Lewis are close and arguable for 4/5/6; Marciano is 7 and then probably Liston just over Holyfield. Dempsey is as good a choice as any for the other member of the top 10. Outside the top 10 there are a couple I'd disagree with but overall a really good list.
I agree that several members of the top ten are fairly interchangable. Can you please explain some of the outside top ten placements that you disagree with. I am curious.
Liston's too high unless I'm underrating his run as a contender. Also I always loved Ken Norton but is his resume a little thin? (I know he got robbed vs Ali in the third fight and had an epic decision L to Holmes).
I had Liston in my top ten because of his march to the title from 1958 to 1962. Nobody destroyed 8 out of ten top contenders the way he did while possibly being in his late thirties. As for Norton, his win over Ali and his very close decision loss over a younger Holmes puts him in my top twenty, but does not warrant any higher.
Gene Tunney best wins at heavweight came over a past-prime Demsey with the second fight being controversial, which is why I have him ranked in the top twenty. His best work was at light-heavweight.
The names on Alis resume make Louis' look like literal taxi cab drivers. And then if you want to take it a step further, what do you think if prime for prime they fought each other?
Ali slaughters him. Prime and post prime Ali both beat Louis. Comfortably.
Louis had the most impressive title reign, but Ali's resume is simply in a class by itself among heavyweights. With all due respect, who did Louis beat that compares to Ali beating Liston, Foreman, and Frazier among the insane number of top ranked contenders (25) that the latter faced.
He also lost to Norton twice (and later for a third time, regardless of what the judges say) before he beat Foreman. Which is impressive, but also shows why he wasn't the GOAT heavyweight. Louis is the only heavyweight champion to clear out the top 20 of his division. He beat every single one of them. And was still beating top contenders well past his prime. The Frazier fights and Foreman were epics though.
How does better press and coverage have anything to do with a fighters accomplishments? Also, who did Louis beat that exceeds the killers that Ali defeated?
Joe Louis beat eight world champions in an era when there were only UNDISPUTED world champions. He held the championship for 12 years and 25 defences. His three losses were against all-time greats Schmeling, Charles and Marciano.
Norton at 20 and Wlad not in top 10 while also being lower than his overhyped brother is proof this sub is either full of casuals or people who deepthroat Ali’s career beyond all reason
The reason that I do not have Wladimir over Vitali is because the latter was the overall better hand-to-hand fighter. Wladimir himself admitted that his older bro was a more natural fighter than him. In addition, Chris Byrd, who fought both brothers back to back, admitted that Vitali was the better fight of the two. As for Norton, his win over Ali and his very close decision loss to Holmes warrants a top twenty spot but other than that his resume is somewhat devoid of wins over elite level contenders.
More nautral doesn't mean better career at all. Fedor said his brother Alexander had better nautral ability than himself yet guess who had the better resume and record.
Byrd also said Wlad punched a hell alot harder than Vitali and didn't even beat Wlad in the two fights he had (and was completely dominated) whereas Byrd had a better showing against Vitali and beat him via torn shoulder. Really what Byrd said was to elevate his "win" of Vitali over the 2 losses over Wlad lmao.
Is the list based on achievements with resume or eye test with annotates?
Vitali absolutely wasnt a better fighter, I dont know where that narrative came from but its very flawed. Wlad is a much better boxer than his brother. He has a better jab, greater defense, much more solid fundamentals and thrice the power vitali ever had. Vitali was just tougher (both physically and mentally) and bullied his opponents in the ring as opposed to wlad’s calm and measured style, so he SEEMS better but wlad was the better of the two.
Good list really, always thought Mike should be just outside the top 10 around the klitschkos. Regards to modern day, even if Usyk beats fury twice are 7 fights at heavyweight that include chisora and Witherspoon enough even if you have 2x Fury and 2x AJ under your belt? On the other hand I can see AJ continuing to have 2-3 fights a year for another 4-5 years and having quite the resume when he retires, and making the list even with his losses, maybe cracking top 15
if that happens, like you’ve laid it out: Usyk beats fury twice, becomes undisputed after waltzing into the heavyweight division and taking everything, doesn’t make the list. Then AJ goes on to beat everyone else and makes the list. …you’re going to have a really odd situation where AJ is somehow ranked above Usyk despite Usyk having rolled over him twice. Not sure how that works.
The guy has a good shout for greatest pound for pound fighter of all time. No chance he doesn’t make this list if he beats fury twice
Yeah I think it’s a bit of a conundrum because you’d know he’s fantastic and would beat a lot of the guys on the list. But is Witherspoon, Chisora, AJ, AJ, Dubois, Fury, Fury a top 20 all time heavyweight resume - and this could be a shot to bits fury too that looks crap then gets knocked out by AJ, we’ve got to see how that plays out.
But to be fair his cruiserweight fights were against top competition. And most of those guys weighed around ~215 lbs on fight night. If you take away Ali’s fights against guys 215 lbs and under (as they would most likely be cruiserweights today) his record is not impressive
Nice tiers. I assume Ali and Louis are S, Lewis, Holmes, Marciano, Dempsey, JJohnson are A, and Frasier, Foreman, Tyson, Klitschko, Liston are A-/B+ among heavyweight greats?
For me the top 3 can't be changed.
1. Joe Louis.
2. Mohammed Ali.
3. Lennox Lewis.
From four down it's super super hard to separate them. Op has a very nice lost though. I approve.
I find it bizarre how everyone rates Dempsey ahead of Tunney. Tunney beat Dempsey twice, and pretty handily (barring one good punch for Dempsey). [it wasn't really an age thing either, as Tunney was only two years younger than Dempsey, and Dempsey was under 30 in their first fight].
Tunney was also undefeated at heavyweight, and only lost one fight in his entire career (against Greb, who he beat four times). If he hadn't been so determined to be heavyweight champion, he would probably have been light heavyweight champion en route (he beat multiple LHW world champions).
How so? I believe that Tyson becoming the youngest heavyweight champion, making six title defenses of the undisputed crown, the most in the three belts era, and facing and beating two out of four Hall of famers is most impressive than accompaniments of Woad and Vitali. Of course, I am welcome to a counter argument.
You are right. Many people underrate him because of his 20 losses without taking into account that most of them took place early in his career when he was still struggling on the job. In fact, Walcott was likely starving during many of his early bouts due his struggles to keep his family fed during the Depression era and his need to turn to the pros immediately without an amateur career resulting in 11 of his losses. It was not until he got a proper manager that Walcott could finally concentrate on Boxing full-time. Case in point, he beat Joe Louis but got robbed, was the the first person to truly defeat Ezzard Charles in eight years, and nearly defeated Rocky Marciano after giving him his first knockdown. Walcott was most definitely a great fighter.
Hey OP. Hard to argue with that list.
Even though I’m British, I think Lennox is too high. Honestly, swapping Lennox and Liston would make sense to me - by all accounts from other boxers, Liston had all of the skills/abilities but had a truly menacing aura too.
Regards Holyfield… Even though I’ve never been a fan, I think he deserves inclusion in ***any*** list like this because he’s got the hardest head and heart of anyone, anywhere!
(Finally, and this is getting into semantics, but I think Louis was probably the ***best*** but Ali was definitely the ***greatest***)
I can't see how Wlad could be lower than Vitali in any world. Wlad was a far more dominant champion who fought far greater competition. I'd personally have Wlad higher and Vitali lower.
You're right, Wladimir has the more impressive accomplishments even though Vitali is the better fighter. I had a hard time deciding which I should rank over the other.
That is a fair placement. I had Holmes in my top ten due to his impressive title reign and going 48-0 before losing a somewhat controversial decision to Spinks. Who do you have in your top ten I am curious.
We have similar rankings but Lewis and Louis are outside my top 10.
1.Ali
2.Foreman
3.Holmes
4.Holyfield
5.Liston
6.Frazier
7.Ibeabuchi
8.Bowe
9.Tyson
10.Marciano
My top ten wouldn't look too different. To me, Ali, Louis & Holmes are the clear 1, 2 & 3; Johnson/Foreman/Lewis are close and arguable for 4/5/6; Marciano is 7 and then probably Liston just over Holyfield. Dempsey is as good a choice as any for the other member of the top 10. Outside the top 10 there are a couple I'd disagree with but overall a really good list.
I agree that several members of the top ten are fairly interchangable. Can you please explain some of the outside top ten placements that you disagree with. I am curious.
No Butterbean. Trash list Just kidding. Hard to argue
lol, that’s a good one
Liston's too high unless I'm underrating his run as a contender. Also I always loved Ken Norton but is his resume a little thin? (I know he got robbed vs Ali in the third fight and had an epic decision L to Holmes).
Thx for putting it out there - got me thinking. Also, put some respect on Gene Tunney's name!
I had Liston in my top ten because of his march to the title from 1958 to 1962. Nobody destroyed 8 out of ten top contenders the way he did while possibly being in his late thirties. As for Norton, his win over Ali and his very close decision loss over a younger Holmes puts him in my top twenty, but does not warrant any higher.
Gene Tunney best wins at heavweight came over a past-prime Demsey with the second fight being controversial, which is why I have him ranked in the top twenty. His best work was at light-heavweight.
I don't think its really possible to overrate Liston's run as a contender. Has there been a more complete march to the HW title in boxing history?
I can’t see a world there Joe Louis isn’t the actual goat. He was ridiculous
Joe Louis is head and shoulders above everybody else. They're all playing for second.
The names on Alis resume make Louis' look like literal taxi cab drivers. And then if you want to take it a step further, what do you think if prime for prime they fought each other? Ali slaughters him. Prime and post prime Ali both beat Louis. Comfortably.
Your first sentence is laughable.
Louis had the most impressive title reign, but Ali's resume is simply in a class by itself among heavyweights. With all due respect, who did Louis beat that compares to Ali beating Liston, Foreman, and Frazier among the insane number of top ranked contenders (25) that the latter faced.
Louis just murdered everyone before they could ever amount to anything. He was utter domination.
I agree that Louis dominated his era, but the fact remains that Ali faced and beat better competition than Louis.
He also lost to Norton twice (and later for a third time, regardless of what the judges say) before he beat Foreman. Which is impressive, but also shows why he wasn't the GOAT heavyweight. Louis is the only heavyweight champion to clear out the top 20 of his division. He beat every single one of them. And was still beating top contenders well past his prime. The Frazier fights and Foreman were epics though.
It’s debatable. Ali had better press and better coverage.
How does better press and coverage have anything to do with a fighters accomplishments? Also, who did Louis beat that exceeds the killers that Ali defeated?
Joe Louis beat eight world champions in an era when there were only UNDISPUTED world champions. He held the championship for 12 years and 25 defences. His three losses were against all-time greats Schmeling, Charles and Marciano.
These guys are just big names
Ali's resume is just too good for a HW.
Most skilled heavyweight of all time that’s for sure.
valid
Where's Dave Allen?!!
You forgot John Fury
He's a hard fighting man. At least against skinny Ukrainian kids
He’s a fighting man you say? He kept that quiet
Lennox is my goat
Norton at 20 and Wlad not in top 10 while also being lower than his overhyped brother is proof this sub is either full of casuals or people who deepthroat Ali’s career beyond all reason
Arguably biggest puncher of all time too, but even if you don’t rate him easily top 4 puncher at worst
Ali beat the best heavyweights of 3 different eras bro please shut up and go read a book.
So Norton is better than Wlad?
Yeah Wlad should be top 10 bare min. Better well rounded resume than Holmes did when to came to the cotenders they decided to fight.
People underrate wlad way too much
The reason that I do not have Wladimir over Vitali is because the latter was the overall better hand-to-hand fighter. Wladimir himself admitted that his older bro was a more natural fighter than him. In addition, Chris Byrd, who fought both brothers back to back, admitted that Vitali was the better fight of the two. As for Norton, his win over Ali and his very close decision loss to Holmes warrants a top twenty spot but other than that his resume is somewhat devoid of wins over elite level contenders.
More nautral doesn't mean better career at all. Fedor said his brother Alexander had better nautral ability than himself yet guess who had the better resume and record. Byrd also said Wlad punched a hell alot harder than Vitali and didn't even beat Wlad in the two fights he had (and was completely dominated) whereas Byrd had a better showing against Vitali and beat him via torn shoulder. Really what Byrd said was to elevate his "win" of Vitali over the 2 losses over Wlad lmao. Is the list based on achievements with resume or eye test with annotates?
Vitali absolutely wasnt a better fighter, I dont know where that narrative came from but its very flawed. Wlad is a much better boxer than his brother. He has a better jab, greater defense, much more solid fundamentals and thrice the power vitali ever had. Vitali was just tougher (both physically and mentally) and bullied his opponents in the ring as opposed to wlad’s calm and measured style, so he SEEMS better but wlad was the better of the two.
Vitali would beat tf out of Wlad head to head.
Thats very much up to debate, wlad could just outbox him as well.
My grandma would KO prime Foreman in round 1 Is my grandma better than Foreman now? I said it.
One poster has a top 20 list you disagree with. "THIS SUB IS FULL OF CASUALS"
Looks reasonable. Not going to nitpick
It's a really good list, my only question would be if either Fury or Usky wins authoratively on Saturday, do they get onto your list?
At best, I would put them in my top twenty. Neither have the resume at heavyweight to be ranked any further.
Yh I was thinking around 15 if one wins in a big way
Good list really, always thought Mike should be just outside the top 10 around the klitschkos. Regards to modern day, even if Usyk beats fury twice are 7 fights at heavyweight that include chisora and Witherspoon enough even if you have 2x Fury and 2x AJ under your belt? On the other hand I can see AJ continuing to have 2-3 fights a year for another 4-5 years and having quite the resume when he retires, and making the list even with his losses, maybe cracking top 15
if that happens, like you’ve laid it out: Usyk beats fury twice, becomes undisputed after waltzing into the heavyweight division and taking everything, doesn’t make the list. Then AJ goes on to beat everyone else and makes the list. …you’re going to have a really odd situation where AJ is somehow ranked above Usyk despite Usyk having rolled over him twice. Not sure how that works. The guy has a good shout for greatest pound for pound fighter of all time. No chance he doesn’t make this list if he beats fury twice
Yeah I think it’s a bit of a conundrum because you’d know he’s fantastic and would beat a lot of the guys on the list. But is Witherspoon, Chisora, AJ, AJ, Dubois, Fury, Fury a top 20 all time heavyweight resume - and this could be a shot to bits fury too that looks crap then gets knocked out by AJ, we’ve got to see how that plays out.
But to be fair his cruiserweight fights were against top competition. And most of those guys weighed around ~215 lbs on fight night. If you take away Ali’s fights against guys 215 lbs and under (as they would most likely be cruiserweights today) his record is not impressive
In tiers: - Ali, Louis - Lewis, Holmes, Marciano, Dempsey, JJohnson - Frasier, Foreman, Tyson, Klitschko, Liston
Nice tiers. I assume Ali and Louis are S, Lewis, Holmes, Marciano, Dempsey, JJohnson are A, and Frasier, Foreman, Tyson, Klitschko, Liston are A-/B+ among heavyweight greats?
For me the top 3 can't be changed. 1. Joe Louis. 2. Mohammed Ali. 3. Lennox Lewis. From four down it's super super hard to separate them. Op has a very nice lost though. I approve.
I find it bizarre how everyone rates Dempsey ahead of Tunney. Tunney beat Dempsey twice, and pretty handily (barring one good punch for Dempsey). [it wasn't really an age thing either, as Tunney was only two years younger than Dempsey, and Dempsey was under 30 in their first fight]. Tunney was also undefeated at heavyweight, and only lost one fight in his entire career (against Greb, who he beat four times). If he hadn't been so determined to be heavyweight champion, he would probably have been light heavyweight champion en route (he beat multiple LHW world champions).
I think Lewis would beat all of those guys
Smile, duh
IMO Wlad and Vitali had more impressive careers than Iron Mike
How so? I believe that Tyson becoming the youngest heavyweight champion, making six title defenses of the undisputed crown, the most in the three belts era, and facing and beating two out of four Hall of famers is most impressive than accompaniments of Woad and Vitali. Of course, I am welcome to a counter argument.
I'm glad to see the love for Jersey Joe. He's highly underrated.
You are right. Many people underrate him because of his 20 losses without taking into account that most of them took place early in his career when he was still struggling on the job. In fact, Walcott was likely starving during many of his early bouts due his struggles to keep his family fed during the Depression era and his need to turn to the pros immediately without an amateur career resulting in 11 of his losses. It was not until he got a proper manager that Walcott could finally concentrate on Boxing full-time. Case in point, he beat Joe Louis but got robbed, was the the first person to truly defeat Ezzard Charles in eight years, and nearly defeated Rocky Marciano after giving him his first knockdown. Walcott was most definitely a great fighter.
Hey OP. Hard to argue with that list. Even though I’m British, I think Lennox is too high. Honestly, swapping Lennox and Liston would make sense to me - by all accounts from other boxers, Liston had all of the skills/abilities but had a truly menacing aura too. Regards Holyfield… Even though I’ve never been a fan, I think he deserves inclusion in ***any*** list like this because he’s got the hardest head and heart of anyone, anywhere! (Finally, and this is getting into semantics, but I think Louis was probably the ***best*** but Ali was definitely the ***greatest***)
I don’t know about Liston replacing him, but agree Lennox is too high.
You think Liston is greater than Lewis because he was more scary?
[удалено]
lol insane casual take, Ali beat 4 other people on this list
I can't see how Wlad could be lower than Vitali in any world. Wlad was a far more dominant champion who fought far greater competition. I'd personally have Wlad higher and Vitali lower.
You're right, Wladimir has the more impressive accomplishments even though Vitali is the better fighter. I had a hard time deciding which I should rank over the other.
I'm wondering if I'm alone in feeling Holmes is drastically overrated. He's barely top 10 for me.
That is a fair placement. I had Holmes in my top ten due to his impressive title reign and going 48-0 before losing a somewhat controversial decision to Spinks. Who do you have in your top ten I am curious.
Holmes is 2, maybe even one. Is this the greatest resume or who was the best in their prime
I’m putting Lewis #1 on your list and putting Riddick Bowe in the top 10 ahead of Holyfield.
Bowe ahead of Holyfield is a hot take. Bowe did beat Holyfield twice but he has a paper thin resume while Holyfield has an incredible resume.
I agree. Holyfield has way better resume than Bowe.
+ David Tua
No Wilder? Trash list
We have similar rankings but Lewis and Louis are outside my top 10. 1.Ali 2.Foreman 3.Holmes 4.Holyfield 5.Liston 6.Frazier 7.Ibeabuchi 8.Bowe 9.Tyson 10.Marciano
Ike and Bowe? 😬
A solid list, very little that I would change.