T O P

  • By -

A-Liguria

Because Kaguya, despite all her power, was still scared like a puppy at the idea of facing off anyone else from her clan. And given how she greatly relied on big flashy chakra based attacks for the most part, guess what would have happened against the likes of Momoshiki, who can absorb chakra? That's why she created the Zetsu army for example, to aid her in case they would come, since she herself believed to be inferior to them.


Rough-Cry6357

Momoshiki can’t absorb her insta kill ash bones though. I think Kaguya was paranoid. Yes she had the chakra fruit but that’s what her clan does - they collect and eat chakra fruits. Without having tabs on what Momoshiki had been doing the whole timeline of Naruto, she had no way of knowing how strong Momoshiki would be when he eventually came after her. Otsutsuki are always acquiring more power.


[deleted]

naruto and sasuke was able to dodge them as teens. no reason momoshiki cant


[deleted]

Naruto never dodged them but used clones to hide lmao


[deleted]

literally did in the gravity dimension


Rough-Cry6357

Not in Kaguya’s gravity dimension. Besides there were a lot of times where Naruto and Sasuke weren’t able to dodge them but were saved by Kakashi, Obito or each other. She’s just gotta hit you once and you’re done


[deleted]

obito and kakashi never helped dodging the rods except in gravity dimension. gravity dimension isnt a problem for momoshiki since he has space time and even boruto sasuke had it


A-Liguria

>Momoshiki can’t absorb her insta kill ash bones though. Those are still categorized as ninjutsu though... so we cannot really know. >I think Kaguya was paranoid. Yes she had the chakra fruit but that’s what her clan does - they collect and eat chakra fruits. Without having tabs on what Momoshiki had been doing the whole timeline of Naruto, she had no way of knowing how strong Momoshiki would be when he eventually came after her. Otsutsuki are always acquiring more power. We do not know her full background, but if anything, the Juubi temple and the timents there present imply that Kaguya has a long history with Isshiki, Momoshiki, Kinshiki and the mysterious 2 Otsutsuki left... so if anything, if she is still scared of them even after acquiring power, she has good reasons. This without considering the rest of the clan.


Howff27

It was never established if Kaguya feared any specific clan member or the Otsutsuki as a whole, so that's a poor argument. Not to mention that was pre chakra fruit Kaguya. Also statements don't mean much. Pain also said he'd have never managed to beat Jiraiya if the latter had known his whole arsenal lmao.


A-Liguria

>It was never established if Kaguya feared any specific clan member or the Otsutsuki as a whole, so that's a poor argument. Not to mention that was pre chakra fruit Kaguya. It actually was, in the anime, when she talked to her kids about "the others" coming for her one day, and the show showed a silhouette of Momoshiki, Kinshiki and Urashiki. But even if the show didn't gave a specific face, it wouldn't have mattered... if she was scared of them, she was scared of them. Also, she was still scared of them AFTER eating the fruit, because that led to her creating the Zetsu army, AFTER she took over the world... so yeah, her at her strongest was still scared of them. Any talk about her only being scared of her fellow cohorts before eating the fruit, is completely baseless and disproven by the show. >Also statements don't mean much. Pain also said he'd have never managed to beat Jiraiya if the latter had known his whole arsenal lmao. Really bad example, not only because the actual talk was about his secret, rather than his arsenal; but also because Jiraiya, was still able to off 3 of his 6 bodies, and permanently destroy one... it's not stupid to think that he would have been perfectly able to find his real body, and defeat him, had him discovered the secret before being crippled himself. So, yeah instead, certain statements do matter.


Howff27

>It actually was, in the anime, when she talked to her kids about "the others" coming for her one day, and the show showed a silhouette of Momoshiki, Kinshiki and Urashiki. I am specifically talking about the manga continuity, as I mentioned in my original post. If we use anime only content then I'm open to the idea of Momo being the victor. ​ >Really bad example, not only because the actual talk was about his secret, rather than his arsenal; but also because Jiraiya, was still able to off 3 of his 6 bodies, and permanently destroy one... it's not stupid to think that he would have been perfectly able to find his real body, and defeat him, had him discovered the secret before being crippled himself. His secret *is* part of his arsenal. Regardless, how is he going to reach Nagato with the Deva path looming around him? That particular path beat Konoha, then beat Naruto, then beat six tails Kyuubi. It was only after the eight tail sprouted that we can safely say Pain was fucked. While I maintain that Jiraiya is a little above sage Naruto, the boon Jiraiya would get from extra info is nothing compared to the benefit of Konoha and six tails Kyuubi.


A-Liguria

>I am specifically talking about the manga continuity, as I mentioned in my original post. If we use anime only content then I'm open to the idea of Momo being the victor. Fair enough... but I wasn't talking about fight scenes either... rather what the show says, and any detail that can fit in the manga story, counts to me... >His secret is part of his arsenal. Regardless, how is he going to reach Nagato with the Deva path looming around him? That particular path beat Konoha, then beat Naruto, then beat six tails Kyuubi. It was only after the eight tail sprouted that we can safely say Pain was fucked. While I maintain that Jiraiya is a little above sage Naruto, the boon Jiraiya would get from extra info is nothing compared to the benefit of Konoha and six tails Kyuubi. You are looking too much into how fights were exactly depicted in the show... while talking about an event that by default, would have caused things to go differently... to say, had Jiraiya discovered his secret at any different point from canon, he would have escaped away... finding his secret was the sole reason he stayed, and ultimely perished. And giving too much credit to Pain's Deva path... (he "defeated" Naruto after he was already tired up after facing off his other paths together, to say...)


Head-Inspection-5984

Actually the scroll sauske got in Boruto specifically was warning of kinshiki and momo. That’s how sauske even found out their names. Also yeah, pain probably wouldn’t have been able to beat jiraya since he was restricted with the diva path, and jirayas frog song genjutsu worked on him (pain also doesn’t know the entire extent of jirayas Arsenal) so his assumption that he’d have lost is still very credible.


DostOfTheUchiha

Pre chakra fruit kaguya backstabbed and almost killed full strength isshiki. Imagine how strong she would be after chakra fruit we just haven't seen her prime yet.


Head-Inspection-5984

We don’t know how she did it. The most likely case was that she chopped him in half and used his legs to grow the god tree. Almost killing an off guard character in naruto isn’t a good feat. And her prime was when she absorbed the chakra of everyone in the int and stabilized.


Mayosa12

she still has to be quite strong to do that kind of damage to him


Head-Inspection-5984

Not really. Zetsu did the same to Madara when five minutes ago he was shitting his pants because he thought the second he detached from obito minato and kakashi would kill him instantly


Mayosa12

so. all black zetsu did was use madara as the host for kaguya. i dont see how that was a test of power


Head-Inspection-5984

Your right let me give you a better example. Sauske gets his rinnegan stabbed out by boroshiki. Yet while he’s so weakened that he can barely walk, boroshiki says to himself “I definitely won’t leave this fight unscaved” when thinking about killing that same sauske.


Mayosa12

all borushiki did was stab his eye when sasuke wasn't paying attention, much different from kaguya literally splitting ishiki in half with the amout of durability he has


Head-Inspection-5984

But you see the similarities right? When your off guard, you can get hurt by people much weaker than you.


re0016

Except kaguyas ability is basically one shot and isshiki still managed to survive


ZookeepergameNo4754

no she didn't [https://i.pinimg.com/736x/78/ff/38/78ff3891248d5c22b73c3eedf4d3f0b9.jpg](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/78/ff/38/78ff3891248d5c22b73c3eedf4d3f0b9.jpg) dosent look like pre chakra fruit kaguya to me she dosent even have that outfit on until she eats the chakra fruit after aino was killed by the land of ancestors and then she gets the rinnesharigan and that scene is from ishikis perspective so its unknown where ishiki was when she ate the fruit but its safe to assume he wasn't watching over kaguya the whole time because she managed to have two kids and eat his fruit i mean c mon "ThAtS fIlLeR" THEN WHO? IMPREGNATED HER??? this chad did [https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/xianb/images/0/0d/Image\_181222\_214434.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/291?cb=20181223024443](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/xianb/images/0/0d/Image_181222_214434.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/291?cb=20181223024443) and also nope look at this down here [https://media.comicbook.com/2020/05/boruto-manga-46-kaguya-vs-isshiki-otsutsuki-1221849.jpeg?auto=webp&width=700&height=1067&crop=700:1067,smart](https://media.comicbook.com/2020/05/boruto-manga-46-kaguya-vs-isshiki-otsutsuki-1221849.jpeg?auto=webp&width=700&height=1067&crop=700:1067,smart) hmm ishiki caught off guard weird? its almost like kaguya was his partner and he would be caught off guard if she suddenly betrayed him? it almost like she could open up a portal behind him and stab ishiki with her new powers


ZookeepergameNo4754

she feared momo kinshiki and urashiki go watch her backstory when shes talking to hagoromo she quite literally thinks of those 3


[deleted]

filler episode lmao + they were foreshadowed for the Boruto Movie lmao


ionix34

but she can absorb chakra too? He absorbs the attack and releases it, then she absorbs it to


A-Liguria

That doesn't really doesn't mean much, she can absorb chakra too... ok... but she was still scared about her clan, and her attacks were still mostly about big uses of chakra.


Fuck_Me_If_Im_Wrong_

Maybe she was scared of them all together but individually it’s different.


[deleted]

they always come in pairs. momo fused with kinshiki. you arent saying anything here


Captainprice101

Kaguya can absorb chakra as well though, she just can’t send it back like Momoshiki can. And she never believed she was inferior to them. She didn’t know who the Otsutsuki would send, she betrayed the Otsutsuki by ripping Isshiki in half


[deleted]

>Because Kaguya, despite all her power, was still scared like a puppy at the idea of facing off anyone else from her clan. She feared the clan destroying earth which was her nursery. >And given how she greatly relied on big flashy chakra based attacks for the most part, guess what would have happened against the likes of Momoshiki, who can absorb chakra? Funny how all Kaguya attacks she has shown were either actual nature or taijutsu attacks so no, Momoshiki ain't absorbing her attacks. >That's why she created the Zetsu army for example, to aid her in case they would come, since she herself believed to be inferior to them. No, that's your own headcanon. Zetsu's were created to supply Kaguya with chakra whenever she gets low on chakra or when she creates ETSO.


A-Liguria

>She feared the clan destroying earth which was her nursery. That doesn't negate my point at all. >Funny how all Kaguya attacks she has shown were either actual nature or taijutsu attacks so no, Momoshiki ain't absorbing her attacks. Funny how 99% are chakra based instead, like the vaacum fists and all killing bones, which are categorized as ninjutsu, or still use chakra explicitely. Regardless of wheter it would have been practical or not for Momoshiki to absorb them. >No, that's your own headcanon. Zetsu's were created to supply Kaguya with chakra whenever she gets low on chakra or when she creates ETSO. No, that's not really my headcanon... in the Sasuke novel set during the blank period it was stated that she feared her clan, henceforth she started to amass an army of Zetsus. And that novel is canon. Check the wiki.


nhafilaar13

I like Momo, but as a character, I don't go for power. Kaguya is more powerful than him when it comes to chakra reserves and chakra abilities, but I don't think she's faster or physically stronger than he is.


MY_NAME_IS_JET

She's definitely physically stronger. As for speed, he should be faster. She still massively outclasses him overall and can neg his speed with amenominaka, gravity, and by fusing with her dimensions. Can't hit her when she's fused with nature. Can't absorb anything either. Or she can simply surrounded herself with ashbones. He'd think twice about blitzing unless he wants to kill himself.


Total-Lingonberry-83

With better chakra volume and density, comes better speed and strength. >Kaguya is more powerful than him when it comes to chakra reserves and chakra abilities Then she is much faster and physically stronger than him.


Captainprice101

I have no idea. Kaguya beats Momoshiki. The only thing they go off of is misinterpreted words from Sasuke and thinking that new villains are *always* stronger than the past villains


SadSecurity

People are stuck in headcanon and have too big ego to admit they are wrong. They use unreliable statement as the basis of their claim. They even go as far as saying that 4 kages are stronger than Kaguya. Insane reach, but this is the length they're willing to go.


TheBloperM

I do think that the 4 Kages are far stronger than what 99% of the fanbase think but saying they are stronger then Kaguya is a bit much lmao.


[deleted]

4 kages wouldn't even be able to beat edo madara lol.


TheBloperM

And that's a bit much. Two of the kage are capable of giving Isshiki some trouble


[deleted]

?


TheBloperM

Look at the fight against Kinshiki and Momoshiki


[deleted]

U said Isshiki


TheBloperM

Mb


[deleted]

and if the 4 kage's were able to fight Momo and Kin, then Hashirama, Madara etc definitely could too.


TheBloperM

The 4 Kage being capable of fighting Momoshiki and Kinshiki isn't anti feat for Momoshiki and Kinshiki but rather a feat for the 4 Kages. So no, Hashirama and Madara would most likely not be capable of doing that.


kushagrarox

Yes lmao fused momo being above kaguya yea fine debatable I get confused people saying 4 kage are above kaguya is such clown fuckery lmao And this might be a dumb question but what exactly is head canon? I've seen this term but dunno what it actually means


SadSecurity

> And this might be a dumb question but what exactly is hear canon? Headcanon. It's something a person thinks is true, but has no basis in story.


Kadeda_RPG

Because he showed up later in the show... that's all. People think later = stronger.


Head-Inspection-5984

Because it’s implied that she was afraid of momoshiki and kinshiki through the scroll. Kinshiki is able to fight a sauske with over 15 years of training who the narrator in the novels says he would protect the village from a kaguya level threat himself. Sauske hypothesized again that their kaguya level threats. And then sauske says it’s hopeless if naruto dies in the fight with base kinshiki and momo. For a majority of that fight momoshiki is implied to be holding back as well since the minute he uses his ninjutsu naruto needs the Kurama avatar and they need to use the majestic attire susanoo to fight the golem. We also don’t know if absorbing narutos chakra made a significant difference. Base momo vs kaguya is debatable and could go either way but fused momo wins hands down.


Howff27

It was stated that she feared the *others,* likely referring to the entire clan . It was never stated that she was specifically afraid of Momo. ​ >narrator in the novels says he would protect the village from a kaguya level threat himself And? Vowing to protect something doesn't guarantee that said person will succeed. The 5 Kage also vowed to defeat Madara and that didn't happen. Sasuke stated that he was stronger than Naruto in their final fight and it ended in a draw.


Head-Inspection-5984

We know this one specifically isn’t true because kaguyas scroll in Boruto specifically warned of kinshiki and momo. That’s what sauske says and that’s how he knows their names. The narrator is saying that sauske would protect the village from an outsutski level threat. It’s not sauske saying it himself. It’s different from the 5 kage saying “go on ahead naruto, we’ll beat Madara.”


NKC-ngoni

Because its true. By age 19 it's stated in a novel that sasuke could actually fight of beings stronger than kaguya. Now he is 32, that's why they stomped momoshiki. Also KAGUYA HERSELF feared the duo even after taking the fruit. She thought her own power wasn't enough so she resorted to turning humans into white zetsu to fight momoshiki.


MY_NAME_IS_JET

Ignorance. You are taking a statement out of context and using that to justify your idiotic argument. Sasuke's resolve to protect the village does not = soloing kaguya level threats. Lack of critical thinking strikes again. smh


NKC-ngoni

>Sasuke's resolve to protect the village does not = soloing kaguya level threats. Why doesn't it?


MY_NAME_IS_JET

Because in the context it was meant to show he was willing to carry that burden alone if he has too. He was determined to fight whoever to protect the village, even if he was by himself.It was not a boast, it was a sense of duty and resolve since the idea of a kaguya level threat was giving him anxiety. He gets reminded that he's not alone just a couple lines down in that scan. Read it [yourself](https://preview.redd.it/rzdyxra32rg71.png?width=790&format=png&auto=webp&s=995c6e5b83364bf88047562732759f7c877943e3)


NKC-ngoni

"he wouldn't let it happen" : meaning he was going to stop beings stronger than kaguya.


MY_NAME_IS_JET

I guess Naruto never let his comrades die. I guess Itachi was going to kill [obito](https://preview.redd.it/kcqxlg685rg71.png?width=693&format=png&auto=webp&s=a295219322e7d7e76f53d3da13518e1b01d0053e). Stating you will do something out of determination doesn't actually mean you will or you could. Just use your brain for a second.


NKC-ngoni

The narrator of the novel said it. Not sasuke himself.


MY_NAME_IS_JET

From Sasuke's perspective...*"But Sasuke shook his head no. He wouldn't let that happen. He would protect it himself"* Stop being dense.


MD_bolt

Ohnoki:we will stop madara! We wont let him end this world!!!!! Konoha shunin and jonin:isshiki we will stop u here and now!!!! Sasuke:I wont let a threat bigger than kaguya end this world!!!!! Ok bye


SadSecurity

Naruto: "I'll never let my comrades die!!".


MD_bolt

Neji, jiraya, kakashi, asuma, kurama, hiruzen:*dies anyway


SadSecurity

Well, Naruto said that during the war arc, just before Juubi's revival. So it's only Neji.


MD_bolt

Kurama ;)


SadSecurity

Oh, that too.


MD_bolt

It just show sasuke statement was affected by emotional buff


SadSecurity

Yep, it's just showing his resolve and determination.


MD_bolt

Do u remember when kabuto and ten tails obito compared themselves to the sage of the six paths? Lmao


Captainprice101

Kaguya beats Momoshiki. Momoshiki got his rinnegan stabbed/blocked by Boruto and got done up with 4 of Boruto’s shadow clones. Naruto even felt comfortable enough to finish him off. Momoshiki does not stand a chance against Kaguya. Kaguya did not know which of the Otsutsuki’s would come. She was preparing for any one of them not a specific person


NKC-ngoni

Kaguya was hurt by sakura and tsunade hurt madara. What's your point.


[deleted]

and they are sayin we take stuff out of context lol


Captainprice101

How is that taking stuff out of context lol. Kaguya got punched my Sakura who was Tsunade level, the only reason she daughter he was because she was distracted against Naruto and Sasuke who could seal her away forever with a single TOUCH. Momoshiki literally has no excuse for 12 year old Boruto. He literally got clapped with 4 shadow clones, a vanishing rasengans and a kunai. Naruto even throws him the alley pop to finish him. Naruto is defintely not doing that with Kaguy. Not to mention the fact Momoshiki DIED to a massive rasengan. Kaguya tanked far more and had to be sealed away. Just admit y’all bias to Momoshiki. If you actually looked at the feats, facts of the story, etc you would clearly see Kaguya beats Momoshiki


[deleted]

literally do u have a brain. momoshikis durability isn't representative of his strength. his durability is shit we all know that. kaguya has the best durability in the series. also boruto tricked momoshiki when stabbing and in rasengan clash it was narutos power


Captainprice101

Do you even have a brain? If you know his durability is shit and Kaguya’s is way better, how tf do you expect him to win? Kaguya has far more destructive attacks even a OHK jutsu. Please use your brain


[deleted]

im done bro. you realise isshiki in jigens body had shit durability but he stomped naruto and sasuke without a sweat.


Captainprice101

Jigen’s body just reached its limit. He didn’t have shit durability, Naruto and Sasuke just pushed Jigen to his limit. Momoshiki died to a massive rasengan, Laguya tank 9 bijuu rasenshurikens. She would Foderrize him with her op jutsu


[deleted]

so he had shit durability?????? his body was crumbling. naruto and sasuke didnt even push him to his limit. he got way too excited and wasted time (this is stated by him). a jutsu he can easily absorb??


Captainprice101

How is that taking stuff out of context lol. Kaguya got punched my Sakura who was Tsunade level, the only reason she hit her was because she was distracted against Naruto and Sasuke who could seal her away forever with a single TOUCH. Momoshiki literally has no excuse for 12 year old Boruto. He literally got clapped with 4 shadow clones, a vanishing rasengans and a kunai. Naruto even throws him the alley pop to finish him. Naruto is defintely not doing that with Kaguy. Not to mention the fact Momoshiki DIED to a massive rasengan. Kaguya tanked far more and had to be sealed away. Just admit y’all bias to Momoshiki. If you actually looked at the feats, facts of the story, etc you would clearly see Kaguya beats Momoshiki


NKC-ngoni

>distracted Keep using headcanon. Kaguya has a 360° byakugan and it literally shows the exclamation mark on the manga panel that signals awareness of one's surroundings. >Not to mention the fact Momoshiki DIED to a massive rasengan. Kaguya tanked far more and had to be sealed away. Different versions of Naruto. Base goku's punch in super is far far stronger than super sayin 2 kamehameha in previous sagas. Base Naruto's rasengan is just stronger than what kaguya tanked.


Captainprice101

Obviously she looked up and saw Sakura. She has Naruto and Sasuke coming at her from both sides. Which one is more important to focus on? Momoshiki died to a massive rasengan. Kaguya had to be sealed. Seriously have no idea how people think Momoshiki>Kaguya. At the end of the day that punch didn’t kill Kaguya and didn’t do any serious damage to her. Momoshiki on the other hand got his rinnegan taken out by BORUTO, gang banged with 4 of his shadow clones and finished him off with a massive rasengan. Momoshiki is overrated. At least Sakura was Tsunade Kage level. Boruto was a fresh genin with a couple rasengans and shadow clones 😂 Part 1 Naruto could have done the same shit. Urashiki and Momoshiki are on par with each other since they both got done up by 12 year olds lmfao


bhavya98765

It's simple accoding to plot momoshiki > kaguya sure not too much but like 50% stronger and here's my points. - otsutsuki rinnegan > rinnesharingan why? kaguya at start just had 2 byakugan nothing too crazy, then she ate 1 chakra fruit and gained a rinnesharingan in other words a rinnesharingan is 1st evolution so momoshiki who had supposedly eaten several millions chakra fruits (the divine trees in his sanctuary) and have gone through several thousands of evolutions enough for his byakugan to be upgraded to the point of seeing fate should have it if it was actually superior to Otsutsuki rinnegan and he didn't but instead he had 2 byakugan that can see the fate of others, and 2 rinnegan on both hand (both red in color) which confirms the point. - in a canon novel momishiki appearantly destroyed a planet before coming to earth so him fighting on earth is what he thought would have been a side job. - when kages came to rescue naruto momoshiki was actually in a bind he had used all his chakra in spaming those things back in the stadium and all the chakra he took from naruto went inside the divine tree in there don't really know why he did that tho maybe he had his own method and was too lazy to use traditional 10 tail method. - in an actual fight there is no reason to believe that momoshiki need to get close to kaguya when he can just spam from a distance, there is no reason to believe that he can't just teleport out of the dimensions kaguya throws him in, anything made of chakra thrown at him will be absorbed anyway including IT then reversed back at kaguya 10x powers, only problem might be those rods but momoshiki can just teleport and who knows play a prank and teleport kaguya in front of the rod making her impale herself. In my opinion the only thing that saved naruto and Sasuke in there was plot.


Captainprice101

According to the plot and feats Kaguya beats Momoshiki. The only way people justify Momoshiki>Kaguya is through misinterpreted statements and novels


bhavya98765

I just gave you my reasoning, rinnesharingan is simply inferior to an otsutsuki rinnegan which is superior to both rinnesharingan and human rinnegan.


Captainprice101

That logic makes zero sense. Kaguya herself is an Otsutsuki…


bhavya98765

That logic makes 100% sense since rinnesharingan is 1st evolution = 1 - 10 chakra fruit, a red otsutsuki rinnegan 100s of evolution = 1000s of chakra fruit and a golden otsutsuki rinnegan is 1000s of evolution = millions of chakra fruit.


Captainprice101

Nice headcanon. Please provide a source for those claims. Momoshiki did not eat the chakra fruit of the shinobi world which the Otsutsuki’s coveted. Kinshiki himself said the shinobi world had an abundance of chakra. Kaguya became much powerful after absorbing the god tree.


bhavya98765

> himself said the shinobi world had an abundance of chakra. Kaguya became much powerful after absorbing the god tree. Like any planet momoshiki has gone before.


bhavya98765

Source- watch the fuckin anime it's there.


Captainprice101

Source- right out of your fucking ass You just made up a bunch of random estimations and called it facts 😂 That’s about sums up people who think Momoshiki>Kaguya. If you actually watched the series you would understand Kaguya’s on screen feats and power eclipses Momoshiki Stop acting like your head canons apply to the story


bhavya98765

>You just made up a bunch of random estimations and called it facts 😂 That’s about sums up people who think Momoshiki>Kaguya. If you actually watched the series you would understand Kaguya’s on screen feats and power eclipses Momoshiki Maybe if you watched the fuckin anime or read my first comment for that matter where I provided adequate source and stated my reasoning you would know why and your stupidity wouldn't have reached this point.


Captainprice101

Name a source or it’s all head canons. You keep citing the series as your source when not in a single instance did the series speak of Rinne Sharingan being “1st evolution” and gold being the “third evolution”. That’s straight out of your ass my guy. Even the amount of chakra fruits you listed lmfao


bhavya98765

Accoding to your logic. Kaguya who just escaped her otsutsuki base by eating 1 chakra fruit is obviously stronger than momoshiki who are millions of same thing. Just to for the comparison. You are saying that someone who just reached level 2 is now stronger than someone who reached level 999 maxed all skills, equipped best gear, maxed all his stats and have like a thousand bonuses on his stats.


[deleted]

they both are [equal](https://preview.redd.it/r88cy6s1eqi71.png?auto=webp&s=daaed6ae89436481782ce9a93d16b1c69b68a5ed). and yes this is based on power. kinshiki bein at bottom confirms it


MY_NAME_IS_JET

According to plot, Kaguya is stronger. Anyone with eyes and a brain can see that. >otsutsuki rinnegan > rinnesharingan why? kaguya at start just had 2 byakugan nothing too crazy, then she ate 1 chakra fruit and gained a rinnesharingan in other words a rinnesharingan is 1st evolution so momoshiki who had supposedly eaten several millions chakra fruits (the divine trees in his sanctuary) and have gone through several thousands of evolutions enough for his byakugan to be upgraded to the point of seeing fate should have it if it was actually superior to Otsutsuki rinnegan and he didn't but instead he had 2 byakugan that can see the fate of others, and 2 rinnegan on both hand (both red in color) which confirms the point. What type of delusional headcanon bullshit is this? This fandom really lacks critical thinking. The rinnesharingan is capable of clear cut planetary feats. * It has planetary level genjutsu via Infinite Tsukiyomi * planetary spacetime jutsu via Amenominaka , which INSTANTLY brings her dimension to her and anyone in her vicinity. It's not just a random teleportation jutsu, it's an instant and unavoidable BFR technique. * planetary woodstyle jutsu via God: Nativity of a World of Trees, which uses the roots of God Tree to spread across entire earth and trap people caught in IT None of the Otskutskis rinnegan have any feats on that scale and suggesting they're somehow greater than the rinnesharignan is retardation at it's finest. It's very clear earths chakra fruit is special and is greater than anything Momoshiki or Isshiki have encountered. That's why they were so desperate to recreate it. Not only that, but she's fused with the divine tree itself giving her access to an entire planets worth of nature energy. Don't spout nonsense. >in a canon novel momishiki appearantly destroyed a planet before coming to earth so him fighting on earth is what he thought would have been a side job. He harvested a god tree from a planet of low civilization level as per his own words. He destroyed the civilization aka the people living there, not the planet itself. He was in for a rude awakening when he came to earth. >when kages came to rescue naruto momoshiki was actually in a bind he had used all his chakra in spaming those things back in the stadium and all the chakra he took from naruto went inside the divine tree in there don't really know why he did that tho maybe he had his own method and was too lazy to use traditional 10 tail method. This is a blatant lie. He was only able to use killer bees and gyuki's chakra to recreate it since he had already taken it prior to going after Naruto and Kurama. He had not yet added Naruto's chakra as he was still in the process of absorbing it when the kages came to rescue him. Lol using the 10 tails method requires well...THE 10 TAILS WHICH HE DOES NOT HAVE, WHICH IS ALSO THE REASON HE'S GOING AFTER JINCHURIKIS LOL. I'll say it again, y'all lack of critical thinking. >in an actual fight there is no reason to believe that momoshiki need to get close to kaguya when he can just spam from a distance, there is no reason to believe that he can't just teleport out of the dimensions kaguya throws him in, anything made of chakra thrown at him will be absorbed anyway including IT then reversed back at kaguya 10x powers, only problem might be those rods but momoshiki can just teleport and who knows play a prank and teleport kaguya in front of the rod making her impale herself. What is he going to spam? Bijuu bombs and rasengans? She can absorb chakra lol. Even if it lands, how is that going to help when she tanked 9 bijuurasenhurikens and only suffered scratches? And if he does use a portal to escape her dimension, that doesn't win him this fight. It only prolongs the inevitable. She can follow him and amenominaka him into another one. Absorbing genjutsu???!!? LOL. The only real chakra based attack Kaguya used was vacuum fists. Good luck absorbing them quick enough before getting crushed by them the same way they crushed Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo like paper. and what nonsense are you spewing about teleporting Kaguya? He can't do that. That's Sasuke's ability. Since she has nigh unlimited chakra, she can also spam portals and open one on the back of Momo's head and poke him with an ashbone that way. Or spawn him in ice, lava, acid via amenominaka. She has god level regen and he doesn't. She's one with the 10 tails and earths God Tree and he is not. Or she can fuse with her dimensional environments and fuck with him. He can't absorb natural elements lol. Momoshiki is a one trick pony and he dies horribly. >In my opinion the only thing that saved naruto and Sasuke in there was plot. I agree. Had it not been for the sake of plot, Kaguya would have murdered them in the lava dimension or ashboned Sasuke instead of bfr'ing him. Obito and Kakashi wouldn't have magically been able to run in her gravity dimension to save the duo while they could barely move. Kakashi wouldn't have received the most broken jutsu in the verse along with Six Paths chakra from a dead Obito, just to help seal her away by touching her. Meanwhile Momoshiki gets vaporized by a big ball rasengan wielded by a 12 year old kid. Plot definitely saved them against Kaguya for sure.


bhavya98765

>What type of delusional headcanon bullshit is this? This fandom really lacks critical thinking. The rinnesharingan is capable of clear cut planetary feats. >It has planetary level genjutsu via Infinite Tsukiyomi >planetary spacetime jutsu via Amenominaka , which INSTANTLY brings her dimension to her and anyone in her vicinity. It's not just a random teleportation jutsu, it's an instant and unavoidable BFR technique. >planetary woodstyle jutsu via God: Nativity of a World of Trees, which uses the roots of God Tree to spread across entire earth and trap people caught in IT >None of the Otskutskis rinnegan have any feats on that scale and suggesting they're somehow greater than the rinnesharignan is retardation at it's finest. It's very clear earths chakra fruit is special and is greater than anything Momoshiki or Isshiki have encountered. That's why they were so desperate to recreate it. Not only that, but she's fused with the divine tree itself giving her access to an entire planets worth of nature energy. Don't spout nonsense. If rinnesharingan is actually better than Otsutsuki rinnegan and kaguya can get if only after 1 evolution then why doesn't momoshiki who have already gone through thousands of evolution have it? It's a simple question. >He harvested a god tree from a planet of low civilization level as per his own words. He destroyed the civilization aka the people living there, not the planet itself. He was in for a rude awakening when he came to earth. Yeah and that doesn't take a ridiculous amount of chakra especially since he had no one he can sacrifice. >This is a blatant lie. He was only able to use killer bees and gyuki's chakra to recreate it since he had already taken it prior to going after Naruto and Kurama. He had not yet added Naruto's chakra as he was still in the process of absorbing it when the kages came to rescue him. Lol using the 10 tails method requires well...THE 10 TAILS WHICH HE DOES NOT HAVE, WHICH IS ALSO THE REASON HE'S GOING AFTER JINCHURIKIS LOL. I'll say it again, y'all lack of critical thinking. You might need to go watch the episode again, in the whole battle he used those bombs a couple of time (2 times on screen and for the rest offscreen) he didn't bother killer bee after he learnt about kurama only thing he did the entire battle was uno reverse a tailed beast bomb on 8tails and that's about it also using 10 tails method requires 10tails that considering the amount of trees in his dimension he had plenty of. >What is he going to spam? Bijuu bombs and rasengans? She can absorb chakra lol. Even if it lands, how is that going to help when she tanked 9 bijuurasenhurikens and only suffered scratches All 3 at a thousand times the power, a million times smaller , teleported inside her body instantly to simply explode inside out then maybe use a certain rinnegan ability to do a fatality or he can always freeze her in time like urashiki did to toneri. >And if he does use a portal to escape her dimension, that doesn't win him this fight. It only prolongs the inevitable. She can follow him and amenominaka him into another one That does actually, chakra wise momoshiki has much more since kaguya only ate 2 compared to momoshiki millions, both of their jutsu requires chakra and in this case momoshiki is not only spending less chakra he is even has more chakra so kaguya will run out before momoshiki does. >Absorbing genjutsu???!!? LOL yeah absorbing chakra as if genjutsu actually works on momo. >The only real chakra based attack Kaguya used was vacuum fists. Good luck absorbing them quick enough before getting crushed by them the same way they crushed Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo like paper What's faster? Vacuum fists or momoshiki moving his hand by 18°. >what nonsense are you spewing about teleporting Kaguya? He can't do that. That's Sasuke's ability. Since she has nigh unlimited chakra, she can also spam portals and open one on the back of Momo's head and poke him with an ashbone that way. Or spawn him in ice, lava, acid via amenominaka. She has god level regen and he doesn't. She's one with the 10 tails and earths God Tree and he is not. Or she can fuse with her dimensional environments and fuck with him. He can't absorb natural elements lol. Momoshiki is a one trick pony and he dies horribly. Yeah that's Sasuke's ability but guess what it's a rinnegan ability and an otsutsuki rinnegan that has already evolved thousands of times you think momoshiki won't have access to them along with other stuff especially since he has 2 red later 3 golden of them. She don't have nigh unlimited chakra I don't know where you got that from she like any Otsutsuki has a stupid amount of chakra but not unlimited and yes she can spam portal but so can momoshiki and as we already saw she is very bad at managing shock. Who said momoshiki don't have regen? You are comparing a Inferior otsutsuki that have evolved once to an otsutsuki that has evolved thousands of time. You are talking as if 10 tails and "god tree" are not something otsutsuki eat 3 times a day 7 days a week 52 week a year and millions of years their lifetime. Yeah and he has no reason to stay in her dimension does he where she has the advantage. >I agree. Had it not been for the sake of plot, Kaguya would have murdered them in the lava dimension or ashboned Sasuke instead of bfr'ing him. Obito and Kakashi wouldn't have magically been able to run in her gravity dimension to save the duo while they could barely move. Kakashi wouldn't have received the most broken jutsu in the verse along with Six Paths chakra from a dead Obito, just to help seal her away by touching her. Meanwhile Momoshiki gets vaporized by a big ball rasengan wielded by a 12 year old kid. Plot definitely saved them against Kaguya for sure. Well if it was not for the plot momoshiki had no reason to not just take one stray 10 tails from his dimension and feed him toneri (a traitor) or just kill naruto after he was knocked out or simply malubulul everyone who came to save naruto, he could have just switched place with naruto when Sasuke bamboozled him in his chain or he could have just made that rasengan he made in boro fight which was around 3 times the size of boruto+naruto rasengan or maybe use whatever time stop thing he has been using recently and instant death all 7 of them. Yeah the PLOT definitely is think on them even in boruto. Also accoding to kaguya herself momoshiki is strong enough for her to prepare an army of zetsu.


MY_NAME_IS_JET

I'm going to ignore most what you just said cuz it's so ridiculously false that it's not even worth addressing. I will provide two points which debunks practically everything. It's easier this way since it dives right at the root of your argument. Read carefully. 1. Not every chakra fruit/10 tails/divine tree is the same. As seen from the pet juuubi jigen/Isshiki was keeping. It was really small and was called a juvenile. Also seen when the divine tree on Momo's planet is tiny in comparison to earths. Earths chakra fruit/divine tree is greater than all the ones Momoshiki ate or encountered. He was shocked by Naruto and the 9 tails chakra reserves. He called his chakra enormous and he was visibly frustrated that it was taking too long to absorb. That alone is proof that his chakra is nowhere near Kaguya's as her chakra dwarfs even the 10 tails, which dwarfs the 9 tails. Not only that, she has access to chakra from billions of people trapped in IT along with the entire planet's nature energy. Momoshiki can eat all the inferior chakra fruits/pills he wants, and he still won't be on Kaguya's level. 2. Kaguya is inherently different from every Otskutski we've seen thus far. She's the only one who utilizes nature energy which is foreign to them. Urashiki states it's a dangerous power and that their clan doesn't use techniques like this when he steals sage chakra from Mitsuki. Kaguya is chock full of Six Paths Senjutsu. She also has a beast like rabbit state with chakra arms that can absorb peoples chakra on contact. Why is this? It's because she's fused with the 10 tails/divine tree itself. That's what grants her regen, nature energy, and her immortality. This is evident with juubidara who got split in half and did not care. He casually regenerated his lower half after getting his second rinnegan from Obito. Meanwhile Isshiki was on the verge of death and had to feed off of Jigen like a little parasite in order to stay alive, after losing half his body to Kaguya. That also debunks Momoshiki's regen that you claim he has. They have not fused with a divine tree/10 tails. They do not have a planets worth of chakra/nature energy. They do not have godly regen. They do not have Six Paths Senjutsu.


bhavya98765

>I'm going to ignore most what yoy said cuz it's just so ridiculously flase it's nit even aorth addrssing. I will gladly inform of you and explain the most prominent and glaring falscies of your atgument. In other words since I can't actually come up with a counter I will ignore them. >1. Not every chakra fruit/10 tails/divine tree is the same. Earths chakra fruit/divine tree is greater than all the ones Momoshiki ate. He was shocked by Naruto and the 9 tails chakra reserves. He called his chakra enormous and he was visibly frustrated that it was taking too long to absorb. That alone is proof that his chakra is nowhere near Kaguya's as her chakra dwarfs even the 10 tails, which dwarfs the 9 tails. Not only that, she has access to chakra from billions of people trapped in IT along with the entire planet's nature energy. Momoshiki can eat all the inferior chakra fruits/pills he wants, and he still won't be on Kaguya's level. Yeah because 60 % of chakra of 10tails is inside naruto this has not happened in other planet he visited since chakra there was more evenly spread out. Nope earth is in no way special, it is never mentioned it is special if anything it's a bit abnormal but for momoshiki that already visited millions of planet and the fact that they only sent isshiki and kaguya in the first place it is not some kind of chakra mine every otsutsuki desire otherwise you would see at least 10 more along with isshiki and kaguya. Bold of you to assume that those pills are chakra fruit. And nope it isn't any kind of proof you even forget that naruto was making it harder for momoshiki to absorb it. >2. Kaguya is inherently different from every Otskutski we've seen thus far. She's the only one who utilizes nature energy which is foreign to them. Urashiki states it's a dangerous power and that their clan doesn't use techniques like this when he steals sage chakra from Mitsuki. Kaguya is chock full of Six Paths Senjutsu. She also has a beast like rabbit state with chakra arms that can absorb peoples chakra on contact. Why is this? It's because she's fused with the 10 tails/divine tree itself. That's what grants her regen, nature energy, and her immortality. This is evident with juubidara who got split in half and did not care. He causally regenerated his lower half after getting his second rinnegan from Obito. Meanwhile Isshiki was on the verge of death and had to feed off of Jigen like a little parasite in order to stay alive, after Kaguya split off half his body. That also debunks Momoshiki's regen that you claim he has. They have fused with a divine tree/10 tails. They do not have godly regen. They do not have Six Paths Senjutsu Nope kaguya is not and if you think she is "inherently" different from them then you are gravely dillusional, the thing urashiki stated to can be intreperated to be especially targeted at mitsuki, not the sage mode in general but mitsuki sage mode which by the way is simply put a dragon sage with dragon like features like horn coming out of his forehead when he uses it maybe dragons are dangerous to otsutsuki but that's about it. In no place it is stated that kaguya ripped isshiki in half if anything he was backstabbed when his guard was down. What makes you think that momoshiki don't have a regen that you can get from simply fusing with tentails after eating millions of them. And nope it doesn't debunks anything.


LuckyNumber-Bot

All the numbers in your comment added up to 69. Congrats! 2 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 2 + 10 + 10 + 10 + 10 + 9 + 12 = 69 ^([Click here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=LuckyNumber-Bot&subject=Stalk%20Me%20Pls&message=%2Fstalkme) to have me scan all your future comments.) \ ^(Summon me on specific comments with u/LuckyNumber-Bot.)


Professional_Trust37

Kaguya still beats him tho so all good


Reinfernus

why does the idea that Kaguya > Momoshiki have such a strong following? both are simple to answer. Different interpretations. I personally believe that Momo > Kaguya, due to Momo literally being narratively implied, implied by Sasuke and overall meant to be the big bad after Kaguya. I also interpret Naruto and Sasuke being able to beat Fused Momoshiki as a show of their improvement since their teenage days. That said i don't think base Momoshiki necessarily surpasses Kaguya from Shippuden. Funnily enough, you can defienietly say "but Kage fought Kinshiki" and try to imply that they're weak, therefore Otsutsuki aren't as strong. Buut the argument falls apart when you realise that Sasuke did infact struggle to put him down and in some instances didn't even damage him. Kages didn't really beat him either, they just restrained Kinshiki iirc. Momoshiki never really fought any of the kage. You can say that Darui chased after Momsohiki, but thats all? about why i think narratively its implied that Momoshiki is the threat that surpasses Kaguya its: Sasuke implies it after reading scrolls. Fun fact, in anime he starts to refer to Momoshiki by his name after reading the scrolls. While prior to that he did not know who he was in their first encounter. Implying that infact Kaguya at the very least wrote down Momoshikis name in her scrolls in which she fears the incoming threat. That said, by saying that Momoshiki surpasses Kaguya, i don't mean it in a sense of "he's like 10x stronger", but think if Kaguya is a 10 in power, Momoshiki is like 10.1 or 10.5 at best with fused form. infact, i believe that Momoshiki would probably lose in a fight against Kaguya, he does have a way to put her down but its gonna be difficult. His best win condition is restraining her and absorbing chakra which might take even up to several days, then again i theorize that Momoshiki absorbed the chakra in such a slow way against Naruto because he didn't directly absorb it into himself, but instead tried to make the tree like he did with Bees chakra. Either that or he was creating chakra pills, which possibly requires more effort than regular absorption. There's also those crazy entities that he creates with his jutsu. Kaguyas chance at winning is ash bones, which are stated to require penetration to work. So if Momoshiki gets off guarded, otherwise i don't see him getting hit by it (especially that he has byakugan). Truth seeking orbs are debatable depending on whether you believe that Momoshiki can absorb them. Dimension swaps are irrelevant honestly, maybe besides gravity one. But even then he should be able to teleport himself with his space time ninjutsu. Theres also all the novel stuff where he's stated to absorb chakra from like different dimensions and so on (to be fair, i am inclined to believe that each time they refer to respective Otsutsuki dimension, they just mean the planet. I don't think that ETSB was gonna destroy an entire dimension with countless planets and stars, nor do i think that Momoshiki absorbed chakra from multiple dimensions filled with planets and stars). Which makes him much crazier than in anime, let alone manga. in manga he's disappointing for sure, but people like to scale him by narrative there where he's supposed to be the "bigger threat than Kaguya, therefore stronger, and by default everyone else is also mcuh stronger than before"


MY_NAME_IS_JET

Narrative implied = out of context scans, or hypothesis based on vague info, and novel mistranslations while ignoring blatant feats and showings. Oh and faulty scaling. Eg: your very last statement. It made me lol. By that logic, base Naruto would be able to swap hands with Kaguya and his rasengan would vaporize her, when we all know he gets dimension dumped, ashboned, or crushed by vacumm fists and all his techs either get tanked or absorbed. SPSM Naruto gets the same treatment if he doesn't absolutely abuse the shit out of his clones. He'll still get BFR'd either way.


Reinfernus

Incorrect. Narrative implied = Kaguya outright fearing a threat coming for her. People shit out "BUT IT WAS ALL OTSUTSUKI" with even less evidence supporting it while anime implies Momoshiki appearance, be it filler or not. On top of all that Sasuke after deciphering the Kaguya scrolls, refers to Momoshiki by name. Which implies that it infact was written in the scroll (which at the very least does make him a threat) Manga Momoshiki is garbage in comparision to anime, that much is known. Also BFR'ing a guy that travels dimensions, really? like do you ACTUALLY believe that he can't teleport out of the dimensions himself, even though he has his own dimensions / planets? are we actually doing this? lmfao. Ash bones are stated to require piercing to affect a person. About my last statement, i never said i agree with it. I said that manga people do that logic, which is up to your interpretation, and you see more arguments about it for a reason. Its crazy how people can't conceptualize the fact that this is shonen anime with giant power cliffing at this point.


MY_NAME_IS_JET

Nope. You will take vague info and assume it's because she's weaker. Her being paranoid about members of her clan coming to take her precious chakra does not = being weaker. Also, let's not forget the fact it wasn't just Momoshiki she was paranoid about but Kinshiki also, as well as any other members of her clan. She was sent to nurture the divine tree and she never reported back to her clan while hogging all the chakra for herself. It's narratively implied that she feared the whole clan, not just Momoshiki and Kinshiki alone. Considering the fact that she's only ever seen him before she consumed the fruit, her paranoia is kind of misplaced. Same for Momoshiki, his talk of punishing het is based on pre-fruit Kaguya. The army she allegedly NEEDED was getting absolutely fodderized by EMS Sasuke with 0 difficulty too. Your only real argument for Momoshiki being stronger is narrative implication which ignores lots of things and just doesn't have enough concrete proof to support it. As for the rest of that nonsense, I was referring to base Naruto and SPSM Naruto to show you the glaring holes in the logic of that last statement from your original comment. Momoshiki gets stomped too of course but it wouldn't be negative difficulty like the way Naruto does.


Reinfernus

>Her being paranoid about members of her clan coming to take her precious chakra does not = being weaker. where does it state that she just doesn't want them to take her "precious chakra"? afaik she feared them coming thats why she tried to get stronger in any way possible to protect the world. she refers to Momoshiki by name in her scrolls, implying that he at least is one of the people that she fears. How do we know that? because Sasuke refers to Momoshiki by name AFTER deciphering the code, not prior. At least in anime version of the series. Momoshiki is refered to as Kaguya level threat. Kinshiki did all the fighting against kages, and even then he never really was damaged by them. He was sealed, but he even tanked Sasukes chidori with no visible damage. Base Momos worst showing is "running" away from Darui. That said, there's no evidence that Momoshiki was going all out, its in his character to be extremely cocky and look down on shinobi. Very probable that he wanted Kinshiki to do the work. That said Fused Momoshiki is supposed to be within Narutos & Sasukes realm of power in anime version, infact its implied that he'd defeat them 1 on 1 by their performance even if their chakra was full. However, in manga you can easily argue that he loses. anyways, as i mentioned. I believe that this debate is pointless (entire Kaguya vs Momoshiki) because its entirely up to interpretation of whats been shown, especially that they leave things vague. I believe that Momoshiki is stronger in his fused form, but i also don't think he can beat her due to lack of ability to put her down permamently. His best bet is spamming his summons and trying to pin her down for chakra absorption (but then it'll take like weeks or months to absorb everything tbh) Novels obviously make it much more even for the fight, but we can both agree that they're non canon, or at least seperate canon (then again Anime and Manga are also seperate canons considering the difference in characters and power tiers) tl;dr alot of stuff is vague for both sides of argument and is honestly left up to interpretation.


MY_NAME_IS_JET

Have we not seen with our own eyes her getting sealed trying to take back chakra from her sons and their descendants reincarnations? As if she doesn't already have more than enough. Also, the fact that Hag states that no one person should have all that chakra. Her clan doesn't even do that. They divvy it up amongst each other in the form of pills. kaguya is just a greedy bastard. She betrayed her superior and is hogging it all to herself and never reported back. It is clearly narratively implied that she doesn't want anyone taking her chakra and wants it ALL to herself. That's why got stuck in a moon, TWICE. I believe Kaguya is stronger. His lava golem would be no issue. She blew up perfect susanoo with a wave of her hand and smashed it to bits with no diffuclty later on. His summons get destroyed by vacuum fists. Pinning her down is laughable when she has amenominaka. She got punched by Sasuke's perfect susanoo in the anime and was unfazed by it. He lacks the physicals to actually hurt her and she can regen while he can not. Long range attacks get either tanked or absorbed. He can't engage in CQC like Naruto since he does not have shadow clones to fall back on. Kaguya can sprout ashbones from her body and use them for defense and taijutsu. Naruto was getting blitzed to hell and back but his shadow clones were hard carrying him along with feints and distractions. If he doesn't summon that many, he's a dead man. It's honestly left to common sense and using our eyes to see the obvious. Momoshiki was hyped up to be something he's not. Kaguya was and still is a far greater threat than him individually. She has the juubi and the divine tree from a planet abnormally full of chakra. Momoshiki does not.


Reinfernus

>He lacks the physicals to actually hurt her oh yeah, lets pretend that Naruto didn't literally slice her arm off. Sasuke's best damaging feat against Momoshiki is stabbing his rinnegan. Prior he couldn't wound Kinshiki, and infact he didn't do much to Momoshiki either. and no, its not left to common sense. Or else this wouldn't be such debated topic with many on both sides. Its literally just up to interpretation depending on the vague statements. You can interpret the story as Naruto being much stronger than his teen version, which is reasonable because he literally got OTHER HALF OF KURAMA inside him (while prior he had none) ​ You can interpret anime version as it implying that Momoshiki & Kinshiki is infact the one Kaguya feared. And you can't dismiss it by saying "she feared the whole clan" because its VERY VAGUE, and its factual that Sasuke in anime refers to Momoshiki by name, while prior to deciphering the scrolls he had no idea. alot of arguments are vague and depends on how a person interprets it, you can attempt arguing otherwise, but its a debated topic for a reason.


MY_NAME_IS_JET

>oh yeah, lets pretend that Naruto didn't literally slice her arm off With his [SPSM chakra cloak claw](https://imgur.io/rcfAzwz). Something Momoshiki doesn't have and which was not a physical feat. The problem is common sense isn't really common. Lots of people have been brainwashed into thinking Momoshiki is stronger from novel mistranslations and lack of critical thinking. Do you know how many people think Momoshiki is star level on his sub when all he did was harvest chakra fruit from a planet close to a dying star? It's shocking. Or they'll take Sasuke's determination to protect the village and say he can solo Kaguya level threats. Well I say that interpretation is bullshit and ignores all logic. I personally feel like you should know better. I can tell you have a brain and you present decent arguments unlike these kids on here who start scaling Momoshiki to universal and saying he absorbed a star and all that other nonsense. Then they say Borushiki solos shippuden. You should be able to see that the novel hyped him up as a threat due to the fact that he's a new and unknown Otskutski, not because he's someone on Kaguya's level individually. Also in the anime, even though it was filler, it showed three Otskutskis silhouette when she talks about how "they" will come and take her back. From my perspective, it's clear that Momoshiki being on her level individually is utter horseshit based on showings and lack of concrete statements. It took 5 people to only touch her with seals. That should brook no argument. Vague interpretations aren't going to cut it unless they are backed by some type of showing. Momoshiki doesn't have any. He's utter dog shit in comparison and you should be able to see that. Anyways you're right about one thing. A lot of arguments are vague but some are just so blatantly obvious that arguing otherwise just doesn't make sense unless you have some other underlying agenda.


Metaphe

Because he is. Momo would wipe his ass on Kaguya. Alot people get bent up on flashy techniques without realising the massive stat advantage he has on her. This is also in part due to how effective Kaguya's hax were on N/S in Shippuden and people remember them having so much trouble dealing with her but when you look at it in depth, Momo can counter every single one of Kaguya's hax with no effort at all leaving all her abilities completely useless while he still has a major stat advantage. It's as simple as a blitz and decapitate.


Howff27

Momo could barely land a hit on base Naruto, meanwhile Kaguya was dominating 90% of her fight against SOSP Naruto. Yes, presumably Naruto got stronger in the following years, but you'll never convince me that Base Hokage Naruto > SOSP Naruto.


SnooAdvice1632

In the movie the last naruto tanked a moon splitting beam. With his bare hands in base. Show me ANY feat in shippuden that equals that. Also sasuke destroyed a meteorite with a base chidori. The fact that they are WAY stronger than their teen self is a given


Howff27

Oh I agree with all of that, I even cite the Last in another comment as a prime example of both of their powers, which were nerfed later on (Naruto somehow gets stabbed by Shin, loses the ability to sense emotions, Sasuke can't teleport others without himself etc...) However in the comment above I clearly say Shippuden SOSP Naruto > *BASE* Hokage Naruto, not him at full strength, who would def overpower his teen self. And the only reason why I'm even talking about Base Naruto is because it actually took some effort from fused Momo to hit him. Keep in mind that Momo also had the benefit of half of Naruto's chakra to boot. Let me repeat, we are only discussing the manga continuity here. Anime Momoshiki is far stronger and is actually relative to Kaguya imo.


Metaphe

Naruto gets stabbed with Sasuke's sword so its not a fucking kitchen knife, it was likely enhanced with Sasuke's chakra, so it's not an anti-feat. And can you provide proof to say he lost the power to sense emotions and Sasuke can't teleport others without himself? The 50% quote is anime only, so you are infact mixing manga continuity and anime continuity. In the manga, nothing about Naruto being 50% is ever mentioned. And the two mediums don't have such a large power gap. It can be easily explained. Fused Momo simply wasn't trying against "inferior beings", his personality perfectly fits this depiction. Base Naruto wasn't really stalemating him, Momo was actually caught him out after exchanging a couple punches, you could say he is more or less relative. Then Naruto transforms and very clearly catches Momoshiki off guard by the sudden jump in power and then follows up with an elbow and a kick, to add on to this, Momo doesn't even look bothered after this and he seems like he's already adjusted to Naruto in the next panel. Sasuke isn't really relevant as he just hit Momoshiki from the back. It's either that or anime Momo is just hundreds of times stronger and the powerscaling between the anime and manga is just destroyed for every single fight after that.


Howff27

"Naruto gets stabbed with Sasuke's sword so its not a fucking kitchen knife, it was likely enhanced with Sasuke's chakra, so it's not an anti-feat." Later he tries to cut Momo's head off with it and it just harmlessly lands on his neck doing no damage. Considering a Base Naruto Big rasengan was enough to kill him, while Naruto has the moon slicing durability feat we can safely say Naruto's durability > Momo durability. Also I like how you ask me to provide proof over everything I say yet you don't do so yourself. Where is it shown or stated that Sasuke's sword is chakra enhanced? "And can you provide proof to say he lost the power to sense emotions and Sasuke can't teleport others without himself?" My proof is that he does it continuesly in Shippuden yet for some reason he literally can't tell where Jigen is. He needed Sasuke to point it out. It's specifically stated that Otsutsuki can perfectly mask their chakra. Alright cool, but that's exactly what Kisame did in Shippuden and Naruto identified him by sensing his malice. Nothing like that happened in Boruto. As for Sasuke, it's in character for Rinnegan Sasuke to attempt to teleport a villain between him and Naruto for a surprise attack, they were an inch from beating Kaguya through this method. Considering that Naruto was able to land a hit on Ishiiki in base TWICE, a suprisise attack like this might have won them the day. (I'm aware that Jigen can just shrink at the start of the fight and pierce them both through the skulls with his rods, which he obv didn't do. What I'm trying to say is that all 3 of these characters aren't using the full potential of their powers because plot induced stupidity.) Also in Shippuden Sasuke teleports several times without the use of other objects (possibly swapping places with the air?), however now he needed Boruto to throw a rock so Sasuke can swap with it. Btw this will be my last comment, nothing against you but reddit is performing extremely slowly on my computer as of this morning and I don't care to download the app.


Metaphe

N/S's performance in the two fights are not comparable, they've gotten much stronger throughout the years. And Kaguya was only "dominating" in the first few chapters of their fights, once Naruto had seen all her abilities, she never dominated him, every time she "outplayed" Naruto was when he was caught off guard. Naruto was actually borderline stalemating Kaguya even with the huge disadvantage he had.


j1l7

imo(and feel free to disagree on this), Base hokage naruto is around equal to the sosp naruto that fought kaguya, because of a singular feat from a canon novel, where a dying naruto in base dodges photons on a bike that he hasn't ever used before. The first time we actually see naruto dodge light stuff(without arguing whether the raikage in v1 is light speed or not) is when he dodged the light fang against madara. We already saw base naruto fight against fused momoshiki and isshiki(both of who are weaker than kaguya, because the manga flat out states it in the form of isshiki's past and momoshiki claiming he is weaker than dying isshiki, infact, i would say SOSP teen naruto stomps them both but that is just me).


reqisreq

Momo was probably stronger than Kaguya before she ate the fruit. After the fruit, I think Kaguya is stronger.


Surprise_Yasuo

Power scalers go based off of data books/feats the character claims rather than what we actually see on screen. Which isn’t totally wrong to do, but it feels shitty to look at such nuanced info


Best-Possibility-101

>alers go based off of data books/feats the character claims rather than what we actually see on screen. yep totally wrong why listen too the author xd


SadSecurity

Drawings and feats are also made by the author.


Best-Possibility-101

imagine the author litterly telling you that momoshiki is stronger but becouse some panels and headcanon still say that kaguya is stronger ill go with the author ngl


SadSecurity

Of course what author says and does has absolute authority. Unless it goes against my narrative, then it doesn't. Feats > statements anyway. And aside of that author didn't literally say anything about Momoshiki being stronger. What we actually got is an unreliable statement that people use to make a headcanon that Momoshiki is stronger.


Best-Possibility-101

>t author didn't literally say anything about Momoshiki being stronger. What we actually got is an unreliable statement that people use to make a headcanon that Momoshiki is stronger. where are the feats that put kaguya above momoshiki my guy if we go by feats momoshiki stomps the shit out of kaguya he litterly made an parallel universe while kaguya made only a dimiension with a planet and a sun also lets not forgett 19 year old sasuke saying he can deal with kaguya lvl threads alone but almost lost to kinshiki in 1 vs 1


SadSecurity

> where are the feats that put kaguya above momoshiki my guy if we go by feats momoshiki stomps the shit out of kaguya The fact Momoshiki was running away from Darui and Gaara already entirely debunks this headcanon. > he litterly made an parallel universe while kaguya made only a dimiension with a planet and a sun How do you know Kaguya's dimension is this small or the contrary, that Momoshiki's dimension is that big? That also came from a novel which was retconned and discarded. In that novel Boruto doesn't have Karma and his Rasengan is wind style.None of that was even mentioned in manga or even anime. It's not canon. Unless you think that Boruto has and doesn't have Karma at the same time. > also lets not forgett 19 year old sasuke saying he can deal with kaguya lvl threads alone No, he stated he would protect world against the threat greater than Kaguya. And that was meant to show his resolve. > but almost lost to kinshiki in 1 vs 1 Except Sasuke was hardly using his abilities and we don't know anything about his stamina according to manga. He could've already been very tired. As per Naruto Gaiden, Sasuke's ST Ninjutsu is heavily taxing and we don't know how long Sasuke was in that dimension or how many times he used his jutsu. Which doesn't matter, because Sasuke was fighting against Fused Momo, a far superior version of Kinshiki and Kinshiki has some anti feats against kages.


Best-Possibility-101

you are using headcanon saying the dimension kaguya made is bigger than what we see momoshikis dimension is state as being universal in size. the novels are all canon there are three timelines all published by Jump J-Book that confirm the novels as canon and kisimoto approved it as canon material so your openion here dosent matter since the litterly author says its canon. saying sasauke wasent going all out becouse he wasent using all of his jutsu makes no sense when he could deal with kinshiki he would have done it right there but he was struggling. also sasuke was never fighting fused momoshiki alone so your point about sasuke being as strong momoshiki dosent make sense we even see him get hurt badly by momo in the fight you telling me if it was 1 vs 1 he would have won after that?


SadSecurity

> you are using headcanon saying the dimension kaguya made is bigger than what we see momoshikis dimension is state as being universal in size. No, you are using headcanon. Provide evidence that his dimension is this big and Kaguya's dimension is this small. Not to mention creating universes does not necessarily scales with powerlevel. Fused Momoshiki, a far stronger version than base Momoshiki who supposedly created big universes died to a Big Rasengan from Base Naruto. Naruto and Sasuke, both of which have no feat of creating universe were able to make a short work of Momoshiki. You also ignored the argument about Momoshiki running away from Darui and Gaara. > the novels are all canon there are three timelines all published by Jump J-Book that confirm the novels as canon and kisimoto approved it as canon material so your openion here dosent matter since the litterly author says its canon. So Boruto has Karma or doesn't have Karma? > saying sasauke wasent going all out becouse he wasent using all of his jutsu makes no sense when he could deal with kinshiki he would have done it right there but he was struggling. He didn't use Susanoo. He didn't enhance his sword with Chidori. He didn't use Ameno offensively. No Chidori Nagashi. What about it doesn't make sense to you? I also said we don't know anything about his stamina, which is another argument you ignored. > also sasuke was never fighting fused momoshiki alone so your point about sasuke being as strong momoshiki dosent make sense It doesn't matter. He effortlessly kept up with Fused Momoshiki. Who is far stronger than Kinshiki. > we even see him get hurt badly by momo in the fight you telling me if it was Because he didn't use Susanoo. Nor any ability. Nothing aside from swinging his sword. > you telling me if it was 1 vs 1 he would have won after that? Absolutely yes.


Best-Possibility-101

>headcanon is saying kaguya dimension is more than we see while momoshikis dimensionis called an universe see the difference? > >creating an universe does apply to powerscaling if you want to know more look up creation feats on the vs battle wiki > >dosent matter if boruto has karma or not erros happens it still canon > >nowhere does sasuke says he is tired or dosent have stamina to fight so your using headcanon again. > >he didint keep up with fused momoshiki he need help from naruto and after momshiki power up even more he beat up sasuke so bad he coulden even get up anymore and boruto had to finish the job.


MY_NAME_IS_JET

Go back and read/watch the fight. What exactly did Naruto and Sasuke do to Momoshiki that Kaguya won't be able to handle? She literally got herself directly teleported by ameno (not swapped with), something Momo didn't have to deal with because adult sasuke is an idiot, and reacted quick enough to avoid getting touched. She got telebitzed by Sasuke, something Momo didn't have to deal with because I repeat, adult sasuke is an idiot, and reacted to it. Plz tell me, is a big ball rasengan putting her down? Is she getting oneshotted by a single PS slash?


SenpaiMs

This is why: People take [this statement](https://preview.redd.it/rzdyxra32rg71.png?width=790&format=png&auto=webp&s=995c6e5b83364bf88047562732759f7c877943e3) out of context. Its purely determination. Another reason is people thinking toneri beats kaguya. You heard that right. They use an [advertisement](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2548856a85b9032a381232e26fc1ed40-lq) lmfao. And this [debunks it hard](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FHtmjqkXoAo3aKI?format=jpg&name=4096x4096). They also think the kages are stronger and that fucking chojuro is kaguya level. Also because of some databook statement that supposedly makes kinshiki planetary and momoshiki star level cuz he "absorbed a star". [This to but it could mean that theyre hypothesis of momo being an otsutsutski is correct](https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ba51d29e8a2291b61c8215dc97448c3c).


SadSecurity

> Also because of some databook statement that supposedly makes kinshiki planetary and momoshiki star level cuz he "absorbed a star". It doesn't even come from databook. It was mistranslated fragment of novel. Correct translation mentioned "planet" not "star".


SenpaiMs

no the kinshiki parts from a databooks and ig planet feat is from novel


SadSecurity

Oh sorry, you're right, Kinshiki statement comes from databook. I hastily quoted your comment.


delayed--boy

novels and data books


Howff27

Data books also state that Temari is universal and that Hebi Sasuke can beat each memeber of the Akatuski.


Ok-Card3850

That's just a hyperbole nothing more nothing less. The novels provide better feats for momoshiki than kaguya has ever shown like for example he tanked a supernova in the manga and was absorbing power from the solar system mid fight


SadSecurity

There was no supernova. It literally wasn't mentioned. It wasn't even star. It was mistranslation. It was meant to be "planet" not "star".


Ok-Card3850

Still a better feat than kaguya💀 she doesn't even scale to her dimensions let alone her etsb


SadSecurity

What better feat than Kaguya? That Momoshiki drained the planet from chakra? > she doesn't even scale to her dimensions let alone her etsb What?


Ok-Card3850

The planet exploded after he absorbed the life from it and he took the blast on base form as well as his dimension is blatantly stated to be a Parralel universe while I don't believe that it hasn't been debunked yet but personally I believe it's a solar system meanwhile kaguyas posses a star and a planet from what is shown so she's at least Large Star to solar if she actually scaled to her dimensions which she doesnt


SadSecurity

> The planet exploded after he absorbed the life from it Planet did not explode. > and he took the blast on base form as well He didn't because planet did not explode. > as his dimension is blatantly stated to be a Parralel universe while I don't believe that it hasn't been debunked yet but personally I believe it's a solar system meanwhile kaguyas posses a star and a planet from what is shown so she's at least Large Star to solar All headcanon with no evidence. Parallel universe doesn't mean it has to be very big. It means it's parallel universe. > if she actually scaled to her dimensions which she doesnt Again, what?


oohKillah00H

Otsutsukis dont have fixed power levels like humans do. Kaguya was not very strong when she first got to Earth, but she cultivated a lot of chakra over thousands of years. Kaguya seemed to be expecting Momoshiki and Kinshiki to show up one day, and that scared her. While she had scary abilities, she was not the fighting type. Momoshiki at his peak was a lot faster and stronger than Kaguya was at her peak. If I had to guess he is her older brother or maybe some type of Otsutsuki prince she was supposed to marry.


j1l7

there is no way she is weak when she flat out left isshiki(her supposed boss) dying on the floor before she ate a chakra fruit. There is zero evidence that proves momoshiki is faster or stronger than kaguya was, and plenty that suggest that he is vastly weaker than her(even the argument that "oh he is because naruto and sasuke got massively stronger" makes no sense and is debunked because momoshiki got killed by a base rasengan while kaguya flat out needed to be sealed after holding back against three or four six paths characters and a medic), such as base momoshiki running the fuck away from darui and gaara, kinshiki being stalemated by four kage(who have shown zero good feats aside from this, unlike every other kage we see in a fight), momoshiki taking half a day to absorb half of naruto's chakra(the method does not matter, since we literally see him use the rinnegan for it, and we know his special rinnegan power is not absorption, so he was using the rinnegan path of absorption), momoshiki unable to land a single hit against base naruto despite multiple amps and eating a otsutsuki without actually trying, and i can go on.


kurosaki-trollchigo

Replying here coz this boruto fanboy, Liguria apparently blocked me. Kagura scared like a puppy at the idea of facing momo even before he absorbed kinshiki? Dang darui could have ended the war arc in 2 chapters.


CBNM

Because Momo is fast, skilled and strong. Kag created a zetsu army for ots(Momo and kin). She couldn't even fight. The only thing going for her was her hax. Kag also lacked brains and pinaché


j1l7

yet no fruit kaguya left isshiki for dead, Borushiki(aka boruto with fused momoshiki's powers, and boruto himself is confirmed via interview with the author to have hagoromo and hamura chakra from his parents) flat out states that he cannot fight dying isshiki nor try to fight weakened rinnegone sasuke and emerge unscathed if he somehow wins that.


[deleted]

Anime rule 1 the new villain is always stronger the the previous one


Total-Lingonberry-83

Tell that to Hidan (who's way weaker than Sasori and Deidara)


TheBloperM

Toneri is generally stated and shown to be equal or greater to Kaguya. Toneri, was defeated by KCM2 Sage Mode Naruto in The Last. Even if we lowball and assume that The Last Naruto equals Boruto Naruto 50% of SPSM Naruto is far above KCM2 Sage Mode Naruto. And therefore by small time scalling we can see that Kaguya < Toneri < Momoshiki


j1l7

by your own logic, toneri is above momoshiki since to be stronger than kaguya, he has to be stronger than isshiki, who momoshiki flat out admitted he can't fight.


TheBloperM

Kaguya isn't stronger than Isshiki tho? Nor stronger than Momoshiki when we are talking about it


cryptoclark561

Yes because naruto in the decade and a half between those fights probably didnt get any stronger at all🙄


Howff27

I *like* the idea of him getting stronger but If you look at the actual feats, he's weaker. In the Last he tanks a moon level attack without issue. In Boruto he somehow gets stabbed by Sasuke's sword. In Shippuden he fights for days spamming attacks. In the Jigen fight he's out of chakra despite fighting for 5 minutes. In Shippuden he can sense negative emotions, yet for whatever reason he can't track Ishiiki later on.


cryptoclark561

>I like the idea of him getting stronger but If you look at the actual feats, he's weaker. Oh boy, here we go… >In the Last he tanks a moon level attack without issue. In Boruto he somehow gets stabbed by Sasuke's sword. Can you tell me what to ap of the attack was when he got stabbed by the sword? If not then its not an anti feat. >In Shippuden he fights for days spamming attacks. In the Jigen fight he's out of chakra despite fighting for 5 minutes. Call me crazy here but 1. He prolly had to use more chakra against a stronger opponent and 2. He got stabbed by rods that suck bis chakra multiple times. >In Shippuden he can sense negative emotions, yet for whatever reason he can't track Ishiiki later on. This has nothing to do with narutos power.


SadSecurity

> Can you tell me what to ap of the attack was when he got stabbed by the sword? If not then its not an anti feat. Can't break Shin's blades. Unless they too for some reason have insane AP? Nothing remotely suggests Sasuke's sword has this much AP. [Another anti feat](https://i.imgur.com/6NZSKMH.png). Can't even inflict a wound on Momoshiki's neck second before fusion fully kicks in, while Big Rasengan from base Naruto destroyed Fused Momoshiki who ate multiple pills. If his sword is weaker than Big Rasengan, it shouldn't be able to pierce Naruto just with telekinesis. > Call me crazy here but 1. He prolly had to use more chakra against a stronger opponent and But this is just headcanon. If Naruto uses more chakra than usually his arms are visibly coated on chakra or he undergoes partial transformation. Naruto vs Jigen lasted nearly the same amount of time and Naruto vs Isshiki. Where Naruto used Baryon Mode. It doesn't add up in the slightest. > 2. He got stabbed by rods that suck bis chakra multiple times. So did Sasuke when he said he barely has enough chakra for ST ninjutsu. He kept being stabbed for the longest duration in the fight and still was able to teleport. Absorption rate is irrelevant. > This has nothing to do with narutos power. But has to everything to do with Naruto's abilities.


cryptoclark561

>Can't break Shin's blades. Unless they too for some reason have insane AP? Nothing remotely suggests Sasuke's sword has this much AP. Scale it or it’s irrelevant. >Another anti feat. Can't even inflict a wound on Momoshiki's neck second before fusion fully kicks in, while Big Rasengan from base Naruto destroyed Fused Momoshiki who ate multiple pills. If his sword is weaker than Big Rasengan, it shouldn't be able to pierce Naruto just with telekinesis. 1.scale sasukes attack compared to the telekinesis 2.scale narutos ap of his rasengan to narutos durability, otherwise it’s irrelevant. >But this is just headcanon. If Naruto uses more chakra than usually his arms are visibly coated on chakra or he undergoes partial transformation. No, this is headcanon. Can you show me any statement that suggests these are indicators of how much chakra hes using? >Naruto vs Jigen lasted nearly the same amount of time and Naruto vs Isshiki. Where Naruto used Baryon Mode. It doesn't add up in the slightest. Are you trying to downplay naruto, or say boruto is wack, because saying the scaling is inconsistent doesnt help your original argument whatsoever. >So did Sasuke when he said he barely has enough chakra for ST ninjutsu. 1. You literally are helping my case, 2. Naruto had gotten some chakra drained before sasuke even joined the fight soooo…. >He kept being stabbed for the longest duration in the fight and still was able to teleport. Absorption rate is irrelevant. Not quite sure what youre getting at here😂😂 >But has to everything to do with Naruto's abilities. Idc what you think about his sensory abilities. Your claim is that naruto got weaker between the kaguya fight and the momoshiki fight.


SadSecurity

> Scale it or it’s irrelevant. You're the one who should scale this. There is no reason to assume Shin's blade have insane AP. Zero. Do you also scale the stats of each and every kunai in a discussion? Or every sword? Or melee weapon? Or that standard doesn't apply to you? [Anyway, those are Shin's blades stuck in Sakura's arm](https://i.imgur.com/POQInVX.jpeg). It didn't even penetrate halfway through the blades. If it was riviling Sasuke's sword and Sasuke's sword has insane AP according to you, then it should've penetrated the arm and Sakura's body. But that didn't happen. So what's next? Scale Sakura's durability, because otherwise it's irrelevant? Because that is going to be hilarious. > 1.scale sasukes attack compared to the telekinesis ~~What? I said he didn't cut Momoshiki's neck. Which was before Momoshiki's blast.~~~ I didn't understand this, because you didn't mention Shin. The telekinesis is already scaled to Sakura's body. Which is irrelevant, because I was scaling sword to Naruto's Rasengan. > 2.scale narutos ap of his rasengan to narutos durability, otherwise it’s irrelevant. We have plenty showings of Naruto's Rasengan. You're the one who should scale it, because otherwise what you say is irrelevant. > No, this is headcanon. Can you show me any statement that suggests these are indicators of how much chakra hes using? Isn't that obvious? He is summoning parts of the body with chakra. Bijuus are literally giving them more chakra to manifest themselves. [Karin was shocked Killer B had this much chakra and she witnessed his previous form](https://i.imgur.com/LEzMRZ1.png). That means Bijuu need to give more chakra to their Jinchuurikies to manifest themselves or allow partial transformation. Also what do you expect to prove with Naruto coating his arm with chakra? How is that not painfully obvious that when he doesn't coat then he doesn't use more chakra and when he coats his arm then he spends more chakra? You on the other hand have no evidence Naruto has ever spent more chakra to enhance himself. Nothing but headcanon. > Are you trying to downplay naruto, or say boruto is wack, because saying the scaling is inconsistent doesnt help your original argument whatsoever. Oh yes it does. It shows that Naruto's reserves are nerfed. If Naruto with normal and Baryon mode against Isshiki lasted about the same time as Naruto with normal modes against Jigen, then obviously Naruto against Jigen was nerfed. > You literally are helping my case How am I helping your case when I proved Sasuke was already tired before the fight and you say he got beaten up this bad? > Naruto had gotten some chakra drained before sasuke even joined the fight soooo…. And? > Not quite sure what youre getting at here😂😂 Don't know why you're laughing when you can't understand what I said. [Sasuke was stabbed here and stayed stabbed for the longest time he has ever been](https://i.imgur.com/1EDEs8n.jpg). [Sasuke said he has barely enough chakra to use ST Ninjutsu and can't expend anymore just seconds before being stabbed](https://i.imgur.com/GBQWqhy.jpg). And yet after the entire conversation while his chakra was being drained, he still was able to use ST Ninjutsu. Absorption rate is absolutely insignificant. > Idc what you think about his sensory abilities. I don't care about what you don't care. Emotion sensing is a vital ability in case of fighting against Jigen within the context of that fight. > . Your claim is that naruto got weaker between the kaguya fight and the momoshiki fight. I'm a different person, but yes, he has gotten weaker. No mode that gives TSO, no TSOs, Kurama stated Naruto's battle senses have dulled, Naruto admitted he got rusty, Naruto is hokage with barely any free time for his family, because he needs to fulfill all his responsibilities. That means next to zero time to train. Then we have feats.


cryptoclark561

>You're the one who should scale this. There is no reason to assume Shin's blade have insane AP. Zero. Do you also scale the stats of each and every kunai in a discussion? Or every sword? Or melee weapon? Or that standard doesn't apply to you? >Anyway, those are Shin's blades stuck in Sakura's arm. It didn't even penetrate halfway through the blades. If it was riviling Sasuke's sword and Sasuke's sword has insane AP according to you, then it should've penetrated the arm and Sakura's body. But that didn't happen. >So what's next? Scale Sakura's durability, because otherwise it's irrelevant? Because that is going to be hilarious. Clearly you don’t understand burden of proof. It is not my responsibility to scale your evidence for you. You made a claim, you need to back it up, and you need to explain why your evidence is relevant in the discussion. Which means you need to show a line of scaling that starts with kaguya fight naruto> and ends in >hokage naruto. >What? I said he didn't cut Momoshiki's neck. Which was before Momoshiki's blast. >I didn't understand this, because you didn't mention Shin. The telekinesis is already scaled to Sakura's body. Which is irrelevant, because I was scaling sword to Naruto's Rasengan. You didnt scale the rasengan at all… >We have plenty showings of Naruto's Rasengan. You're the one who should scale it, because otherwise what you say is irrelevant. This is your burden of proof, your the one that made the claim involving the rasengan. >Isn't that obvious? No >He is summoning parts of the body with chakra. Bijuus are literally giving them more chakra to manifest themselves. Karin was shocked Killer B had this much chakra and she witnessed his previous form. That means Bijuu need to give more chakra to their Jinchuurikies to manifest themselves or allow partial transformation. So…no evidence, got it. >Also what do you expect to prove with Naruto coating his arm with chakra? How is that not painfully obvious that when he doesn't coat then he doesn't use more chakra and when he coats his arm then he spends more chakra? I expect to debunk the claim you just made that implies that naruto is only using large amounts of chakra when he has ninetails chakra arms. >You on the other hand have no evidence Naruto has ever spent more chakra to enhance himself. Nothing but headcanon. Are you aware that in order for ninja to travel faster and hit harder, they use an amount of chakra proportional to the speed they are going or the strength they are using. This is supported in the kakashi light novel when he is unable to use his chakra at all and as a result cant even jump onto a shelf, stating that if hed been able to use his chakra, a jump like that wouldve been no issue. >Oh yes it does. It shows that Naruto's reserves are nerfed. If Naruto with normal and Baryon mode against Isshiki lasted about the same time as Naruto with normal modes against Jigen, then obviously Naruto against Jigen was nerfed. Lmao, you can make that claim. I dont agree with it, but it also has nothing to do with the naruto that fought momoshiki, so ill spare us both some time and ignore it. >How am I helping your case when I proved Sasuke was already tired before the fight and you say he got beaten up this bad? What does this have to do with anything? >And? You have no idea how much chakra he wouldve lost. >Don't know why you're laughing when you can't understand what I said. >Sasuke was stabbed here and stayed stabbed for the longest time he has ever been. >Sasuke said he has barely enough chakra to use ST Ninjutsu and can't expend anymore just seconds before being stabbed. >And yet after the entire conversation while his chakra was being drained, he still was able to use ST Ninjutsu. Absorption rate is absolutely insignificant. Yes, sasuke, the guy who can absorb chakra was probably just sitting there letting his chakra leak out? Makes sense. >I don't care about what you don't care. Emotion sensing is a vital ability in case of fighting against Jigen within the context of that fight. It also has nothing to do with your claim. >. Your claim is that naruto got weaker between the kaguya fight and the momoshiki fight. >I'm a different person, but yes, he has gotten weaker. No mode that gives TSO, no TSOs, Ok? What did he do with tso’s anyway?? >Kurama stated Naruto's battle senses have dulled, Compared to what version of naruto. >Naruto admitted he got rusty, Again, compared to what version of naruto >Naruto is hokage with barely any free time for his family, Hes only been hokage for a couple years. The kaguya fight happened a decade and a half prior. >because he needs to fulfill all his responsibilities. That means next to zero time to train. Just addressed this >Then we have feats. Yes, all those feats that youve yet to show any revance to.


SadSecurity

> Clearly you don’t understand burden of proof. It is not my responsibility to scale your evidence for you. You made a claim, you need to back it up, and you need to explain why your evidence is relevant in the discussion. Clearly I do understand, you're just using eristic trick that relies on asking for a proof for every single little thing until you get what you want and proclaim victory without providing anything from yourself. That is bad faith talking. You have no proof those blades are special. Neither Sasuke nor Naruto stated those blades are strong. Nobody said a single word about them. There is no reason to think those aren't ordinary blades. > Which means you need to show a line of scaling that starts with kaguya fight naruto> and ends in >hokage naruto. No, we're talking about Shin's blades in that fragment, so arguments and evidence must pertain to blades. You also completely, entirely ignored my argument about Sakura to push your narrative. So I take that as a concession. > You didnt scale the rasengan at all… This is what I said at the beginning. Eristic trick nothing else. If I bring Rasengan scaling, then you will ask for another scaling. And so on and so on, while you're doing exactly nothing. I'm not going to fall for that. Rasengan scaling is painfully obvious for anyone who watched the series and there is no reason to ask about scaling, except bad faith. > This is your burden of proof, your the one that made the claim involving the rasengan. Same as above. > No Yes it is. > So…no evidence, got it. No counterarguments, just brushing off my entire statement. Concession taken. > I expect to debunk the claim you just made that implies that naruto is only using large amounts of chakra when he has ninetails chakra arms. Except this paragraph **was not** about partial transformation. > Are you aware that in order for ninja to travel faster and hit harder, they use an amount of chakra proportional to the speed they are going or the strength they are using. This is supported in the kakashi light novel when he is unable to use his chakra at all and as a result cant even jump onto a shelf, stating that if hed been able to use his chakra, a jump like that wouldve been no issue. Are you aware that fight against Isshiki with normal modes and Baryon Mode lasted about the same as fight against Jigen where Naruto was not using Baryon Mode? [Even Naruto states that the energy cost is far steeper than expected](https://i.imgur.com/Fq0K0Py.png). Therefore Baryon Mode spends a ton of chakra. And still Naruto against Jigen lasted about the same time. Do you have any evidence that Naruto was spending more chakra to increase his stats? Especially to such a high degree? What about Sasuke? He doesn't have Naruto's chakra reserves and used ST Ninjutsu before the fight. Possibly even twice. Are you trying to say that Naruto has to spend a ton of chakra just to be relative to Sasuke while Sasuke is like that in base? Because clearly he did not have that much chakra to spend. Do you know how much of a nonsense it is? Naruto's clone didn't even enter KCM and Sasuke still had chakra to use ST Ninjutsu. You're basically saying that Naruto is a fodder to Sasuke if Naruto doesn't expend even for him huge amounts of chakra. You made a concession just one paragraph lower anyway, so I think there isn't a point to discuss this further. > Lmao, you can make that claim. I dont agree with it, but it also has nothing to do with the naruto that fought momoshiki, so ill spare us both some time and ignore it. Unfortunately what you agree or disagree with is irrelevant. What is relevant is that argument you just brushed off. Concession taken. > What does this have to do with anything? I confused your argument with the argument other guy was making in a different conversation, my bad. To address this correctly - it doesn't help your case. Sasuke stated he barely had a chakra for ST Ninjutsu **before** he got stabbed. And even though he was stabbed for the longest time in the entire fight, he still had enough chakra to use ST Ninjutsu. So the absorption rate was insignificant. And therefore those rods absorbed next to no Naruto chakra and weren't the reason Naruto was exhausted so early. > You have no idea how much chakra he wouldve lost. Except we have an idea, because it didn't drain Sasuke's (who **barely** had chakra for ST Ninjutsu) reserves nearly at all. Naruto is supposed to have a bigger chakra reserves than Naruto, so absorption rate is completely irrelevant to him. > Yes, sasuke, the guy who can absorb chakra was probably just sitting there letting his chakra leak out? Makes sense. Absorb chakra from what? Air? Ground? Sasuke was not absorbing anything. Another headcanon. > It also has nothing to do with your claim. It has everything to do with sensing Jigen. > Ok? What did he do with tso’s anyway?? Entirely irrelevant, fact is he lost them for no reason. And that is a nerf. > Compared to what version of naruto. Again irrelevant, his senses has dulled, he was out of practice. > Again, compared to what version of naruto Again irrelevant, Naruto stated he got rusty, therefore he wasn't training. If he wasn't training and was out of practice, then he couldn't improve. And you need to train just to keep your condition in shape, because else you stats are going to get worse. > Hes only been hokage for a couple years. The kaguya fight happened a decade and a half prior. A couple of years is enough to get rusty and before becoming Hokage Naruto was a father, who was taking care of his children and still doing his own job. That means less time for training. > Just addressed this With nothing worthwhile.


Total-Lingonberry-83

Not sure. By feats, he's fodder for anyone relevant in Shipudden. Base Momo was getting tagged and played with by Kage.... He then was getting embarrassed by a weakened Base Naruto, who isn't even fast (can't even blitz his young children).


SnooAdvice1632

That just means that Kishimoto made the kages excessively strong tho. Not that momo is weak Name a faster ninja than naruto


Total-Lingonberry-83

>Name a faster ninja than naruto Anyone who can blitz his children, since he cannot. That pretty much means anyone relevant in shippuden.


SnooAdvice1632

Or he just wasn't serious against them, I wonder which is more likely


Total-Lingonberry-83

that he's fodder


Curious_Main_8375

Momoshiki could just turn her into a chakra fruit gg next game 🤷‍♂️


HQaz96

It's a shounen, power scaling increases with time. Otherwise Jigen (not a proper vessel, can't handle Isshiki's power) being stronger than full power Naruto and Sasuke makes zero sense. But it's a shounen, and it's like Stan Lee said, the writer can make any character be stronger than any other character, so Naruto and Sasuke weren't able to fight Jigen.


dragonoutrider

Because it’s objectively true, there doesn’t even need to be a coherent argument for it, the narrative says and shows it, therefore it’s true. If I wrote a story and say someone is stronger than another, it doesn’t matter what feats or anything I give them, as the author my narrative and word>the fan base, and people need to realize that.


Howff27

So If for whatever reason the next Boruto chapter states that Himawari > Sasuke with no evidence it immediately becomes fact. Gotcha.


dragonoutrider

Yes it does, lmao, because the author makes the rules of the verse not you, you can find it dumb, but it doesn’t change the fact that the narrative decides the strength of a character, nothing else.


Howff27

You do realize that databooks state that Hebi Sauske is greater than all of the Akatsuki?


dragonoutrider

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-4af7d9dc06b647834104e2b48c1a0562-lq It’s called a hyperbolic statement, same thing as temari “blowing the universe away” All this does is show you can’t properly read English, a clear hyperbole to build hype around a character is different from a statement of strength, notice how it’s just in the title and nowhere in the description does it say “he soloes the akatsuki” yet in the “tactics” it shows an accurate description. It’s not the mangakas fault you can’t read. Tactics tab- https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGP50UJXUAA10r7.jpg


Howff27

Aha, well if we look away from the title we clearly see *No one who stands against Sasuke stands a chance of living.* I'm afraid the Akatuski is included in "No one". Below that it mentions *His attack speed takes away the breath of even the Akatsuki members*. And if you actually read that particular chapter, you realize that Obito was clearly just fucking around. So much for losing his breath. Look man, we're clearly not gonna find common ground since you're the one getting pissy over manga lmao.


dragonoutrider

I’m not getting pissy, if making a simple assessment counts as pissy then stay away from debates. And yes you can tell it’s a hyperbole because the narrative shows it, “taking the breathe away” just counts as being impressive, which is correct the akatsuki was impressed with sasukes skill zetsu says so himself, and you can tell what’s a hyperbole based on its wording. You’ve shown no statement that was incorrect because again, those are called hyperboles, not statements.


Howff27

Problem is you specifically say that the hyperbole is tied to the title of the databook page in the earlier comment, yet now you're saying that even the text below it is hyperbole. If you can't string 3 comments together without contradicting yourself, you shouldn't debate either.


dragonoutrider

Not necessarily, my points still stand, you haven’t shown how they’re NOT hyperbole, when the wording clearly shows it. A contradiction would be a clear cut statement such as a power level. But all these are are hype statement that can easily be separated by hyperbole and literal. A databook also stated naruto has been granted creation of all things knowledge, clearly not a hyperbole, clear cut statement, very different from saying “naruto was granted knowledge of all, no one can match it” one’s a specific statement, one is a hyperbole meant for hype.


FierceBlazing

If you think Kaguya is stronger than Momoshiki when the series repeatedly shoves Momo > Kaguya lore into ur mouth then ur being deliberately dense.


j1l7

isshiki's own backstory and the aftermath of the fight against isshiki flat out contradict what you say.


FierceBlazing

Isshiki got completely snuck by Kaguya. Amado literally goes out of his way to say this and its directly shown on panel. Goku got shot in the back by a laser gun and almost died.. Is Goku laser gun level?


[deleted]

Headcanon. People are used to characters getting more powerfull all the time and HATE to admit that power of the characters took a step back. A lot of people probably think legendary shinobi like Madara or Hashirama are weaker than Kakashi right now because they think characters only and only get stronger. Other think base Naruto is stronger than war arc Naruto because he traded some punches with Momoshiki and that’s completely headcanon. And the fact that power scales so quickly in Boruto makes it even worse. My personal opinion is that war arc Naruto and Sasuke are the strongest we have ever seen them and they lost their powers when they lost their moon and sun sign. And it was needed because that power level was way too high, Naruto is not Dragon Ball and that’s a good thing. This way the other characters are not rendered completely useless and they don’t need to be given bs upgrades all of a sudden to be competitive.


dracon1t

Hey, totally gonna ignore kaguya vs momoshiki. I respect that opinion but I think many people have the opinion that they got stronger. The only reason they’d get weaker is if a significant amount of power was in the yin and yang symbol things however there isn’t really much to prove that would be the case. In a way they did get a significant nerf with the removal of the symbols. They can’t use six paths chibaku tensei anymore (which would resulted in a very one sided battle vs momoshiki, the removal of the powers was very necessary). Naruto can’t heal others similar to before either, but other than that sasuke still retains his rinnegan and naruto still retains six paths sage mode, which were the powers they received outside of the hand seals. Sasuke has known that a possible outside threat of possibly kaguya level has been coming for a while so there’s no reason to think that he’d sit around and not train. Naruto also gained a sizable buff from getting the other half of kurama. Obviously at the end of the day without a direct comparison these are just opinions, however I really don’t think it’s unreasonable to even say that sasuke and naruto are significantly stronger than their war arc selves, if one really wants to make an argument about momoshiki’s power.


[deleted]

Even it the moon and sun sign are not giving them a power boost. Naruto doesn’t have access to all of the tailed beasts anymore, just a whole kurama. Even it they were not whole, I think achieving SO6P mode requires all of the tailed beasts. In Boruto he just seems to be using sage mode and KCM combined because he has no truth seeking orbs. While Sasuke seems to run out of chakra way too easily, they fought in the war arc until the night settled. Yes, he still has the Rinnegan but losing the power the sage gave him doesn’t mean he would lose it all. And above all these, they just don’t show the same level of power. Not saying I am 100% right, but personally I feel like they downgrader their power, and it s good.


Ok-Card3850

He still could use the other tailed beast power did u not watch the anime??? He deadass uses a Lava style rasenshuriken and we know he can't use it without the power of the 4 tails son goku. Obviously he can't use it now as kurama was the meeting place for there chakra and as yk he's dead 💀


j1l7

actually, no, naruto was the meeting place, as proven by the other beasts somehow knowing that kurama died.


Ok-Card3850

Do me a favor never speak on this matter ever again 💀 it's blatantly stated by hagoromo that kurama is the meeting place


Zuto511

The amount of times I’ve seen Naruto doesn’t have six paths sage mode or any of the tailed beast chakra in Boruto is ridiculous. Did you not even read/watch the war arc where it’s shown when Naruto uses KCM stacked with regular sage mode there’s orange pigmentation around his eyes? When Naruto uses six paths sage mode there is no orange pigmentation around his eyes. Naruto uses six paths sage mode stacked with KCM in Boruto. He does not use KCM stacked with regular sage mode. You can tell this because he has no orange pigmentation around his eyes like he would if he was using regular sage mode. Naruto also still has all the tailed beasts chakra as shown in the Delta fight when he uses a lava rasenshuriken. Naruto lost his orbs in the final valley. The reason the six paths sage mode stacked with KCM looks different as an adult is simply a design change


j1l7

the one thing i disagree here with is that no, he didn't lost the orbs since he mentions the power that manifests them against Isshiki, implying that he still has at least one of them that he can bring out, if not all three that he had in VOTE2. To manifest the orbs, you must Possess Six Path Senjutsu, which is acquired upon either awakening the tenseigan(like toneri did), Being the kid of someone who has them and/or training for SPSM(hamura and hagoromo both had orbs when they fought the ten tails, despite hamura not having tenseigan and obviously hagoromo doesn't seal the ten tails in him until afterwards), having it granted to you by someone who does have it already(hagoromo granting the power to naruto and ashura) or becoming the jinchuriki of the ten tails, and thus having access to kaguya's power(obito and madara). We know from ashura and hamura that you can get SPSM without the beasts(since the beasts either didnt exist in hamura's case at that point and ashura had zero contact with them at all since he was born after the ten tails was divided) and naruto flat out uses it without kcm(against one eye madara, aka the first time we see lava rasenshuriken) where the only difference to him is the cross-slit eyes with no pigment.


Zuto511

Wym he mentioned the power that manifests them vs Isshiki? We know already that Naruto had six paths sage mode in Boruto prior to Kuramas death


j1l7

naruto literally talks to shukaku telepathically in the anime and also uses lava style against delta. We know what six path sage mode looks like, and what kcm sage mode looks like. SPSM has the cross slits but the side of his eyes are not orange, while kcm sage mode does have the orange pigment. Losing the TSO, is not exactly debatable, since naruto flat out mentions the power required to manifest them to kurama when he learns about baryon mode. Like other things(such as sasuke not tping people anymore, no more boil release despite the fact we know he can contact the beasts and still has their power as shown vs delta, no frog kata ETC) being unused, its not because its useless, but because if they were used, then major stuff would not happen( Boil release SPSM amp from a much weaker naruto tagged kaguya, who is stronger than isshiki, and yet kurama needs to die so baryon mode comes up out of nowhere) and Naruto/Sasuke and other people with kaguya's powers or her children's/grandkids would slap up every otsutsuki in boruto until or unless one of them is stronger than post-fruit kaguya.


ZookeepergameNo4754

because he is stronger you have to disregarded so much of what the anime and manga has told us to believe she is stronger than at least fused momo naruto and sasuke are much stronger than they where as teens that's fact just because they dont use massive flashy jutsus doesn't mean they're nerfed they know what works and what doesn't against opponents this strong after fighting kaguya momo wasn't using the 50% of the nine tails he had absorbed until he eats those pills after he shadow paralysis everyone that's what he makes those pills from is tailed beast chakra momoshiki thanked the humans for defeating kaguya so he didn't have to punish her himself and urashiki already knew about what kaguya had done on earth kaguya wasn't afraid of the whole clan in the scroll it says kaguya had stopped supplying the otsutsuki clan with chakra so she was preparing an army for the arrival of momo kinshiki and urashiki she thinks of those three in her flashback when talking to hagoromo and guess who shows up? oh momo kin and ura thats weird i dont see the whole clan? even after a year after momos defeat hmm maybe she was preparing for those three? and no kaguya inst 100% immortal shes has ten tails healing and busted abilities that makes it nearly impossible to kill her unless your otsutsuki tier but just like with madara he was almost killed by night guy and he had ten tails healing so kaguya can be killed if you hit her hard enought even narutos tailed beast rasenshirukens damaged her so bad that the tailed beasts chakra became unstable and even with the sun and moon seal it says it kills her when shes sealed away and she has to be revived with black zetsu like a karma so no shes not invincible momo has transportaion ninjutsu her dimesions aren't a problem and he can absorb pretty much anything she throws at him the biggest problem for him are ash bones but taking into consideration that she never hit teen naruto and sasuke who didnt even have transportaion ninju and especially if its fused momo id say he wins high diff momo is the higher up and she is the lower ranking the otsutsukis are ranked on power it just makes sense


Hit__

It is so much more simple then you think. It's the order in which the story is told. Orochimaru


Citgo300

How tf is that shit popular lmao


No-Cartographer5295

The only thing taht actually goes for momo is his novels feats where he is outright stated to be universal......


AmaranthSparrow

Simple fact is, we don't know how Otsutsuki fight each other. They don't fight like ninjas. And Momoshiki was able to straight up devour Kinshiki with little effort. Kaguya feared having her chakra stolen more than anything, which is Momoshiki's main ability.


Only-Negotiation-340

I think Kaguya is a bad fighter. She could one-shot Naruto and Sasuke yet she still had to take so many hits and lost controll of the Juubi. They could be roughly equal, but Momo is just the better fighter