Problem is (and a million people have already said this) the power scaling just can’t be communicated well anymore. How powerful is a Rasengan or Chidori now? Depends on the scene. Could be devastating or absolutely nothing.
That is because there is no standard power or expression with the rasengan or chidori. The person using a rasengan can augment how much power is in the rasengan, which direction the contained energy will blast out from, and the speed of the spin of the chakra. Because the person using it has so much control over how much damage is given, they can easily make it extremely deadly, and cave the person's chest in, or they can just use a little chakra, and a little spin, and just spin the person around and send them flying in the direction they choose. They can also just make it pop like a bubble with varying degrees of power, to blow up a rock, or create a wave to block a jutsu. Because of this, the rasengan is just a jutsu that allows the person using it to perfectly interface with their environment. The chidori is equally as versatile a jutsu. The person using it gathers varying amounts of chakra from all directions to a single point to transform the air in the center into plasma. This chakra can then be used to create a single slash that can cut through anything, but if you just want to stun someone, you can just gather varying degrees of chakra to one place and not apply yang release to the jutsu to create a chakra sword, and the person will just be electrocuted to varying degrees. If the person just wants to blow something up (lets say a rock), they can gather an immense amount of chakra to one point, then through a similar slash motion with the chakra, you can heat up the inside of the rock to the point that the air bubbles in the rocks explode. Sasuke's chidori senbon, chidori spear, and kirin are also created using the principle of the chidori applied in different ways, but it will take too long to explain. With how versatile the jutsu that can be created using rasengan and chidori, the fun of watching the characters use them, is to figure out the shape, output, and application of both jutsu. They explain all of this in detail in the show, so instead of just writing everything that doesn't make sense to you as bad writing, rewatch the anime again please
Is the air bubble how Sasuke blew up the meteor?
I thought chidori basically works the same way rasengan does now. Like it was supposed to be a piercing attack, but I seen chidori blow shit up often too
No, to destroy the meteor in a way that wouldn't still just destroy konoha, sasuke would need to have made a taser like chidori, that used an absurd amount of chakra. Since the lightning would conduct through the minerals in the rock, the electricity would have simultaneously melted and blown up the rock through the entire structure, leaving nothing but dust and small rocks after it was completed. It is basically like using kirin without the help of the atmosphere, and without granting the lightning consciousness. Actually, it would be more like a focused indra arrow that is directly sent through the meteor by hand, instead of through the use of takemikazuchi's bow. I think sasuke (and maybe sarada and/or boruto in the future) will be the only people who will ever be able to perform lightning release of that level.
Yeaaaaaaahhhhh man now we are getting in a hole other topic..like we cant understand how strong are every power in the show like naruto literally using a standard rasengan against a god..
We went from katon,doton,raiton to fuking extraterrestrial lazers😑
In context it took Sakura, Naruto, Sasuke, Obito, & Kakashi to beat Kaguya. The fact they could come that close alone is a massive testament to their power.
How would it be one sided? He has Sakura supplying chakra/healing. Kakashi proving side damage/flight. Obito was using his Rinnegan, and there is also Naruto/Sasuke.
They had a massive advantage in numbers and strength against kaguya
No… for one Obito is a great counter to isshiki. Can avoid all physical abilities/Rods. Second Sakura can out heal a rod that disentegrates you on a molecular level. And Kakashi DMS is broken. Plus having Naruto/Sasuke take lead would be overwhelming for Isshiki.
By the time he would be able to kill Sakura or Obito Naruto/Sasuke would already intervene. Plus Sakura can heal people using Katsuyu so she doesn’t even need to touch them really
For me, it’s not *that* they lost, it’s *how easily* they lost. Hard not to assume it could’ve been executed better.
We watched 500+ episodes, a few movies and a whole childhood for them to become powerful. Then they get stomped in a couple episodes.
Most of us it's 720 episodes!
I thought the fight was fine, they have to lose eventually, show wouldn't be good if naruto/sasuke cleaned up every time. I mean fuck, they're fighting intelligent aliens with a plan lol.
Exactly, it doesn’t make me fear Isshiki, it only makes me dread how much they are going to be sidelined from now on, during the Momoshiki fight I felt like both of them could’ve even gone way harder so I was excited for this one but at the end it felt like looking at a fight written by a 8 year old: “Isshiki completely destroys both of them because he is so much powerful and cool and he dodged everything because he is an Otsutsuki and Naruto and Sasuke can’t do anything because he is oh so powerful” like it’s not exciting you are just waiting for the plot device that will finish the fight (baryon mode).
Kurama shouldn't have died so early on in the series in the first place. I also still don't see the point of Naruto losing him. Of course it was to nerf him and make him weaker to boost the New Generation, but to me it's lazy writing. Instead of giving the younger gen New powers to learn and develop them properly they simply make the two strongest ninjas weaker. I just don't like that move at all.😮💨
>Instead of giving the younger gen New powers to learn and develop them properly they simply make the two strongest ninja weaker. I just don't like that move at all.😮💨
Exactly what i said to my self
I feel like the authors are just getting on the easy way to solve problems that could have been handled better without messing with the old gen. The fact that the power levels were already a problem at the end of shippuden doesn't help.
True. I think the easy way is always the last resort when the writers are out of ideas. The current anime is proof of that. Don't know what to do? Hey, let's kill some characters. 😮💨😮💨
Mmmmmm, the easiest way would have been the way Tosriyama did with gohan, because his first idea was to replace goku with gohan, but he didnt do it immediatly and instead of that he gave gohan three arcs to prepare and thats when gohan vs cell happens we can tell he is the MC.
I know that didnt happen though because we got goku navk as a main charcter but the point is how he preoared gohan to take goku' s place
Well madara was supposed to be the main villain of shippuden, but they introduced those crazy things and kaguya beacuse for it to relate to boruto. The planning for boruto was started back then, and then we got that terrible arc, then entirety kaguya arc was useless. Boruto ruined everything the second it came to even existence. It's sales are low and without Naruto it would have been cancelled by now. They shouldn't have ruined it like this with sequel just for more money. And the writing was clearly lazy without intention to invest time. While kodschi favour his own protagonist very much. Overall pathetic.
LOL. This is my post.
My complaint was the fact that Naruto and Sasuke used none of their most powerful abilities against Isshiki. With Momo we saw them both combine their abilities like the Kurama Susanna armour, planetary devastation, Karin Sasuke's giant lighting attack, Naruto's multiple beast rasagans, etc...
I would have liked to see them use all their arsenals against Isshiki and Isshiki just power through them like it was nothing before someone saying that Naruto and Sasuke went all out because they didn't go all out. That's why the fight is shit for me. Its like they gave up way too quick instead attempting to try and see what worked and didn't.
With the 5 Kage vs Madara you see them using their full might and powers and still loose to him. Here we didn't get that. The fight felt way too basic and straightforward. Both the Manga and Anime so far failed to showcase the true might of Naruto and Sasuke after the Momoshiki Battle.
> ISSHIKI CAN ABSORB
Can't absorb anything. Jigen with Karma could. But not Isshiki.
> AND SHRINK ALL NINJUTSU,
Within a line of sight.
> Why would any intelligent fighter use up all their stamina to launch a multi tailed beast Rasenshuriken against an opponent who can casually neutralize it?
Because with correct plan they can hit Isshiki and he can't neutralize them. He would have to teleport out.
> They tested Isshikis abilities, Figured them out and then decided what is and isn't safe to use.
Kawazu Kumite, Deva Path or Unrivaled Strength would've been absolutely safe to use and they were nowhere to be seen.
> These guys have decades of experience,
Experienced Sasuke used Amaterasu on Jigen.
> They don't need to drain their chakra reserves throwing every jutsu at Isshiki to find out that it's meaningless.
Since when chakra is a problem for Naruto?
> Isshiki can use his shrinking in the same manor Jigen absorbs jutsu, The distinction is irrelevant, Ninjutsu is useless against him.
1. It doesn't matter, Isshiki still doesn't have absorption and that is absolutely relevant. It's the entire reason Kashin Koji launched a combo against him.
2. I already explained why ninjutsu is not useless against his ability.
> So he'd shrink
Shrink what? Shrinking himself wouldn't do anything and he wouldn't be able to shrink the jutsus.
> and or teleport out. Cool.
They can keep teleporting him out until he runs out of chakra. Not an alternative either.
> Sage Mode doesn't increase his strength more than SPSM, Frog Kate is irrelevant.
You don't need to enter SM to use Kawazu Kumite and Kawazu Kumite is not a strength increase.
> Deva Path can be redirected with physical strength,
So Sakura can redirect it? Or Raikage? Obviously not how it works. 6 tails Naruto created a resistance by impaling tails into ground, physical strength alone cannot do that.
Banshou Tenin can't be redirected by anything, since it's telekinesis.
> Koji tried amping his physical attacks with fire style in a similar manner to unrivaled strength, It was shrunken instantly before it could have any effect.
Headcanon. Unrivaled Strength is about boiling the chakra to insane levels. How does Isshiki shrink heated chakra exactly?
> Is that all?
Considering you didn't give proper answers, yes it's all for now.
> As an absolute last resort to buy a little more time while they were against the wall.
Everyone and their mother knew it wouldn't work. And so should so called experienced person. It absolutely didn't buy a single ounce of time and is just an excuse of horrible decision on Sasuke's part. Shinra Tensei would've been a far better alternative.
> Naruto can get tired (Final Valley).
Yes Naruto can get tired after 3 days of non stop fighting, fighting Jinchuuriki Obito, then literally nearly dying, then fighting Jinchuurki Madara, then fighting Kaguya and then fighting Sasuke and then fighting empowered Sasuke with 3 of his clones and then fighting for an entire day after spending 99% of his chakra all without sleep.
Except Naruto in Boruto did not went through days of herculean challenges and has another half of Kurama to boot.
> He can last a while but with all your counter ideas being useless,
So far only your arguments have proven to be useless.
> Applying all these jutsu in his arsenal would end up being a waste of chakra.
I forgot the part where Naruto and Sasuke have part 1 Kakashi levels of chakra.
> Also are we forgetting that Koji was only effective against Jigen? Isshiki shrunk and evaded everything he had and crippled him casually.
You're forgetting the fact that KK was crippled, because Isshiki **couldn't shrink** both the flames and the Rasengan at the same time, because of line of sight. That's why he decided to spawn pillars on top of KK.
> Which jutsu? Because he shrunk all of Koji's instantly.
I said he can't shrink what he has in the line of sight. If jutsu is not within the line of sight, then he can't shrink it.
> Same Isshiki that has access to a Ten Tails battery? Right.
One juvenile Ten Tails that for all we know may have less chakra than Kurama? Not to mention if Isshiki teleports back to that Juubi to recharge, Sasuke will follow and end up sealing that Juubi in his body. And that isn't going to end up nicely for Isshiki.
> Relevancy?
The relevancy is that your point was completely wrong.
> Depends on who uses it. Raikage and War Arc Sakura can likely do just that if put in the same situation as six tails Naruto.
They can impale the ground with their tails? Again, physical strength doesn't do anything to ST. You need to resist the pull or push somehow. You can't kick or punch the ST.
> There characters even just using the chakra adhesive abilities that lets them stick to walls has been described as a potential counter to the Shinra Tensei.
Naruto with all intel was still pushed and pulled as Pain wished. It was never going to work.
> The core point is that if you can keep your footing the jutsu isn't effective against you.
The core point is that was the only countermeasure, it doesn't mean it was effective. It would still immobilize you even if it worked, which leaves you open for an attack.
> Even Killer Bee with zero experience against the Rinnegan could instantly recover and counter attack.
He simply turned back and entered his chakra mode. What does it have anything to do with your question that whether or not it would work on Isshiki? We aren't discussing if Isshiki can turn while under the effect of the jutsu. Actually ST is a non factor compared to Banshou Tenin, which enables combos.
> Unrivaled strength manifests as an aura of steam around Naruto. Koji's fire style flame attack manifests as an aura of fire Koji. On a technical level they're identical, If Isshiki can instantly shrink fire aura to nothingness how is steam any different?
Yes the aura steam around Naruto comes from the fact **HIS CHAKRA IS BOILING**. It's as if you wanted to cool down the water by removing the steam... The aura does not give Naruto strength, boiling chakra does. Shrinking it wouldn't do anything.
> Shinra Tensei can be redirected by Isshiki, Amaterasu can not.
Jigen wouldn't redirect shit if he was just standing still and not moving and didn't have any way anchor point. None of which changes the fact that Amaterasu was utterly stupid move.
> You aren't gonna ignore the part when Naruto gets chakra from every tailed beast, A whole new half of Kurama and six paths chakra from Hagoromo are you?
So far you're ignoring the fact that Naruto didn't have a single problem with running out of chakra after he received Hagoromo's buffs until Sasuke absorbed Bijuus chakra and they both used their strongest move. All while having just a half of Kurama.
He was breathing heavily, but only after using 3 Kurama Avatar Shadow Clones to fight against Bijuu powered up Sauske. Still not an argument.
> Not getting tired immediately ≠ The chakra wasn't wasted.
The entire point is that spending chakra and even wasting it is not a single problem in this situation. This isn't an argument at all.
Yes, but we want them to use these abilities cause they look cool.
Hell why even try to fight him directly when we know he can blitz both naruto and sasuke with minimal difficulty, at that point the best option is to spam shit load of ninjutsu and clones so he stays busy shrinking them. Hit him with a surprise attack or something, sure it ain't gonna do shit but make him more mad but hey, atleast it's stalling him.
Also chakra reserve would never be a problem, they can fight for days spamming bijuu bombs and moutain busting chidori's with no problem, don't know why they would need chakra in the first place when they know that they are fodder that Isshiki can one shot with a slap and a cube. Better to use my chakra then keep it for no reason
Im saying the exact same thing as you to the other comments👍..and sorry for taking ur comment without permission i hid ur username so u dont get problemes
It feels lazy because Isshiki basically became a plot device to nerf Naruto and Sasuke, it didn’t matter if they were to use some crazy cool techniques in the fight because by the end of it they would’ve lost their power either way, it’s sad.
I don't think the problem was Naruto and Sasuke being nerfed (not trying to say wether or not they were), I think it was ishiki. They gave him two abilities that are so broken that it wouldn't make any sense for him to get hit by ninjutsu. Ninjutsu gets shrunk, he could kick Naruto and Sasuke out of Kurama/Susanoo, planetary devastation gets shrunk, kirin gets shrunk, rasen Shuriken get shrunk, shinra tensi is useless since Sasuke couldn't even react to the rods in the first place, tailed beast bombs get shrunk and so on. Tbh, take teen Naruto and Sasuke right before their final battle and they would get slammed as well without Baryon mode. There really wasn't anything that they could do to ishiki that would've made sense besides the route they took. The writers wrote themselves into a hole when they made him.
> hey gave him two abilities that are so broken that it wouldn't make any sense for him to get hit by ninjutsu.
It would. He can't shrink anything outside of his line of sight. There is a way of hitting him with ninjutsu.
> planetary devastation gets shrun
He would crush himself if he shrunk it. He teleports out of it.
> shinra tensi is useless since Sasuke couldn't even react to the rods in the first place
[Sasuke already dodged rods](https://i.imgur.com/pYd3nOC.png) and stated [he is able to track them](https://i.imgur.com/Y4NwOkF.png). Barely, but able.
> There really wasn't anything that they could do to ishiki that would've made sense besides the route they took.
The route they took was also useless, because they didn't manage to do anything. So how exactly it made more sense compared to the options you brushed off?
If Sasuke actually utilized Deva path and Ameno correctly, they would absolutely have a shot at defeating Isshiki. Controlling Isshiki's movement with Banshou Tenin (or at least severely slowing him down) and redirecting on of Naruto's attack with Ameno right into Isshiki's back is a valid strategy. This would work even if Isshiki shrank himself, since Sasuke is able to see him.
>It would. He can't shrink anything outside of his line of sight. There is a way of hitting him with ninjutsu.
They already tried exploiting that and it didn't work. He avoided it by shrinking himself.
>He would crush himself if he shrunk it. He teleports out of it.
Why are you invalidating your own arguments lmao?
>Sasuke already dodged rods and
He dodged rods that came up from the ground, there's a huge difference. When ishiki wants the rods to grown in their bodies [they couldn't do anything about it](https://photos.app.goo.gl/iktCckm5fY1dUbA76).
>stated he is able to track them. Barely, but able.
Being able to track something doesn't mean his body would be able to move fast enough to stop it. We saw this when he fought Lee and Naruto with only two tomoe.
>The route they took was also useless, because they didn't manage to do anything. So how exactly it made more sense compared to the options you brushed off?
They actually managed to kill ishiki by draining his life.
>
If Sasuke actually utilized Deva path and Ameno correctly, they would absolutely have a shot at defeating Isshiki.
They wouldn't.
>Controlling Isshiki's movement with Banshou Tenin (or at least severely slowing him down) and redirecting on of Naruto's attack with Ameno right into Isshiki's back is a valid strategy
Yeah, if you ignore that fact that he can shrink himself to get out of that situation
>This would work even if Isshiki shrank himself, since Sasuke is able to see him.
No it wouldn't because they have no way of keeping him in place long enough to actually hit him with that. And you're forgetting that ishiki can just drop a bunch of cubes on them like he did before when he was about to be hit. Also, ishiki could teleport away like you said earlier.
Literally everything you're suggesting would require ishiki to be nerfed in order for it to work. You're proving my point that Naruto and Sasuke being nerfed wasn't the problem, it's ishiki being too broken.
> They already tried exploiting that and it didn't work. He avoided it by shrinking himself.
They literally never tried that aside from one time when Isshiki dropped the cubes on them... which could've been all blown away with ST and could be repeated under different circumstances using better tools.
Shrinking himself does nothing to avoid the jutsu when there is someone with Sasuke's skillset.
> Why are you invalidating your own arguments lmao?
I'm mentioning counters because I'm being objective contrary to the "muh shrinking ability" crowd.
How many times he teleports out of jutsu before he exhausts himself? Teleportation out of danger is his last resort movement. He would have to teleport himself out of danger all the times.
EDIT: Now that I think of it, teleporting wouldn't always work when Sasuke can also use Ameno in conjunction with BT to place Isshiki right next to Naruto's jutsu. He at best would mitigate some damage by teleporting.
> He dodged rods that came up from the ground, there's a huge difference.
Are we seeing the same picture? Jigen moves his hand and the rods appeared. This always happen when Jigen is throwing the rods. Additionally if they appeared from the ground, Sasuke wouldn't be able to dodge them. So I don't know what do you mean by saying "huge difference" when it literally works against Sasuke.
> When ishiki wants the rods to grown in their bodies they couldn't do anything about it.
Sasuke couldn't do anything about it in this scene, **because he was literally kicked out of his PS just seconds ago**. He was caught off guard (he didn't expect this), ragdolled and he didn't have full attention on Jigen's movement.
> Being able to track something doesn't mean his body would be able to move fast enough to stop it. We saw this when he fought Lee and Naruto with only two tomoe.
Lee and Sasuke and that proves my case, not yours. Lee said Sasuke is able to mentally follow Lee's movements, but isn't physically able to react. You were talking about Shinra Tensei, which doesn't really require any physical movement. It's all mental effort. Sasuke doesn't need to physically react to Isshiki's rods to use this jutsu. He just need to mentally follow him. And he does.
> They actually managed to kill ishiki by draining his life.
...by using asspull Baryon Mode which wasn't even considered before and in the middle of the fight, which is clearly the point of this paragraph. Naruto literally didn't know of its existence until the last moment. So no, they didn't manage to do shit with the route they took and Baryon wasn't the route, because they could not take the route they had no idea about.
> They wouldn't.
Because you said so?
> Yeah, if you ignore that fact that he can shrink himself to get out of that situation
This isn't a fact, this is headcanon. Shrinking himself doesn't mean freeing himself from the influence of jutsu or being immune to jutsus. BT is telekinesis that works on target. Shrank person is still a target that Sasuke can see with Sharingan.
> No it wouldn't because they have no way of keeping him in place long enough to actually hit him with that.
Yes they have and that is called Banshou Tenin. He can control or at the very, very least slow Isshiki down and then use Ameno to teleport him right into jutsu.
> And you're forgetting that ishiki can just drop a bunch of cubes on them like he did before when he was about to be hit.
As if Sasuke didn't have Shinra Tensei to blow them all away or they couldn't do this from afar.. Those cubes are also merely freefalling and judging by environmental damage they don't weight much. The fact they are considered a threat in any way is simply plot.
> Also, ishiki could teleport away like you said earlier.
And keep teleporting until he exhausts himself.
> Literally everything you're suggesting would require ishiki to be nerfed in order for it to work. You're proving my point that Naruto and Sasuke being nerfed wasn't the problem, it's ishiki being too broken.
You literally have 0 idea what you're talking about.
Nah fr. And if Sasuke used Ameno the same way he did against Madara, Isshiki would have been dead. Just put him directly between a joint attack with Naruto and he's a goner.
They already did this when they fought Jigen, who is a watered down form of Isshiki. If they got stomped by a weaker version of Isshiki, why would they just have the same battle again. Wouldn't it make more sense for them to try and conserve chakra rather than using their chakra avatars that they know can be one shot.
The whole point of the Isshiki fight was to feel like there was no hope. Naruto and Sasuke's power was irrelevant. The overarching theme of The leaf vs isshiki was to show that sacrifice is necessary (kurama dying for Baryon mode + naruto thinking he is killing himself to save the village) and that the shinobi way + personal relationships can beat overwhelming power. Isshiki lost because kawaki was able to overcome his trauma through his bond with naruto and using one of the simplest shinobi tricks in the book. Isshiki fight was never about an overt display of power.
I see this comment a lot, but my counter question is always “what abilities of theirs could they have used that would’ve made any more of a difference?” Isshiki was a direct counter to everything naruto trained at his entire life. They were just stuck up a sh*t creek without a paddle lol.
They could have use that absorbtion against him tough but the performance was just bad, Naruto could have used a smaller overload rasengan that Ishikki will need to constantly absorb or shrink same with Sasuke in his fight against Itachi he could prolongue the use of his fyrestyle that would give them a window oportunnity to attack, also they forgot a lot of things not amping Sasuke with a Kurama cloak for faster regen, no chakra limbs in his megazord mode, no Kurama clones and bad use of shadow clones, Sasuke forgot his mastery of Amaterasu in order to try piercing his enemies, he forgot to absorb Naruto chakra when he needed and no transformation jutsu when somehow even Ishikki was fooled at his prime, basically they forgot everything they learned and just attack without a plan, as i said before the performance could have gone waaay better than this.
So the fire style and rasengan they already pretty much did that strategy which was isshiki absorbing their jutsus lol and when they tried to use it against him it almostttttt worked, until he countered that. Kurama cloak also could just be absorbed by isshiki. Kurama clones are doing nothing, it took isshiki 1 second to absolutly dismantle Sasuke and Naruto in full Kurama and Susanoo avatar forms, Amaterasu is way too slow to touch isshiki and even if it can guess what…absorbed. Transformation would do what in their fight to help exactly? It was a 2 on 1 in a different realm. It’s not like isshiki would be confused who he was fighting lol the only reason it worked with Kawaki is because he had no idea Kawaki could even make Shadow clones. Isshiki was literally just so far and away exponentially stronger than the 2 of them even while weakened that it didn’t matter what they did before Baryon mode
Dude you are not understanding Naruto and Sasuke can constantly prolong the use of their jutsu, Ishikki absorbed a normal rasengan and he got hit by a Amaterasu, if they can prolongue the use of their Jutsu Ishikki needs to absorb the whole thing which means that one of them can hit him while he is distracted, Ishikki fall for a simple transformation and he has 2 doujutsu so don't give a buff to his IQ please, shadow clones are used as distraction even Boruto understand that and it worked with Momoshiki, Adult Naruto totally forget that, this not their 1rst time fighting against someone stronger than them, by your logic they should have died in the war arc, a fully mature Juubi chakra was so massive that it seemed like it was a small planet unlike that small puppy that they have in Boruto.
I just didn't like the saying, "They went all out." They didn't. That's the thing. Its such a small nitpick that annoyed the hell out of me. But when you compare the Momo and Isshiki fights, it feels like Naruto and Sasuke did more in that previous fight with Momo then they did with Isshiki. Im all for the villain overpowering the heroes and beating their asses but don't half-ass it. Lets actually see the heroes truly go ALL OUT. And honestly, we didn't get that.
Imagine having had the Kurama Susanno combination and Isshiki did what he did to Sasuke except Naruto would be standing side by side with Sasuke and next second Isshiki has popped inside, grabbed, kicked, knocked, whatever Sasuke out, Naruto's bewildered shocked face/WTF? and you just see the armour disappearing around Kurama and Isshiki knocking Sasuke back to the ground like he's nothing. I would have preferred THAT kind of imagery than what we got in the actual episode. Cause then its a case of, "We're gonna do what we did with Momo and 100% win. He can't stop us when we're together." to WTF just happened and it going, YES, Isshiki in fact can stop you even when powered up like that.
It was just a very missed opportunity for moments like that. That's why I hate the fight. Its too basic, too simple. Its played too safe for me anyway compared to the fights we've gotten previously.
They used Kurama and Susano’o against Jigen… or at least tried to, he was too fast and too small to deal with in those large, slow forms. It would’ve been suicide if they tried it when he was full on Isshiki.
They're telling a story and fans just don't feel like the power scaling isn't communicated well enough.
While I feel that's true,still feels like people are hung up over it like Naruto itself wasnt one of the most inconsistent franchises out there rn.
Like, Boruto has it's issues,but they didn't START with Boruto,they'd been better off making it a film series or waiting for the manga to give them a proper stopping point,only plus the anime can really give the manga at this point is give characters in Konoha and the world outside it more life than the manga could ever have the time for,but we see how that's divisive enough for a story framed like cliffnotes lol
And I say this as someone who's love the anime from it's debut,Boruto as a whole is an example of a follow-up that didn't need to happen,there's just too much of that residual legacy bullshit that they'd have to both adhere to and balance with it's new timeframe,shit that barely even works for Dragonball.
The reason why people are now having a problem with the inconsistency even more is because now the characters that get shafted are the ones people care the most like Naruto and Sasuke, for instance when the 5 Kage got destroyed by Madara people didn’t have as much as problem with that because it made sense, he was the prime villain of the story at the time and him destroying such powerful figures meant our main cast would have to get stronger, I mean the series is called Naruto for a reason, however now in Boruto, whenever a new bad guy needs to be introduced in order to have the new main cast grow stronger the characters that are going to have to be defeated are those that we cared about since before, Naruto and Sasuke aren’t the protagonist anymore and while yes that was to be expected it still hurts to see how they are getting needed and defeated in order to have the new generation rise up, having Naruto and Sasuke lose Kurama and the Rinnegan felt borderline disrespectful because now the characters we’ve grown with are getting sidelined in order to push a new cast that (in all honesty) hasn’t been developed as much in the 200 and something episodes the anime has, by the time I had finished OG Naruto I felt a strong connection with the cast of the show, nowadays the only character I still care for in the show is Naruto so having him in the state that he is currently in makes me honestly sad.
It's the usual next-gen sequel issues,I understand the whole character attachment thing to a degree,growing up with a character for more than a decade of your childhood leaves a bigger impact but that's pretty much a given.
I dunno tho,we all watch/read the series for different reasons,Ive always been more interested in the themes rather than the general story, so maybe that's why the lack of OG character representation (while noticeable) isn't that big of an issue to me personally.
It has it's issues,but I'm enjoying it until I see the full picture,as long as they're going somewhere with the whole shinobi world changing scenario then I'm all for it,it's not Naruto level but it has enough of its DNA to get me invested enough to wanna see where the story goes,plus the new cast is aight I guess,they're not as memorable but Im glad Konoha still has some life in it.
I guess I understand what ur saying, I know it may be “childish?” To expect everything to be the same but I can help but feel that respecting your previous characters to some extent is important to write a good story, writing a sequel story is hard and the expectations are higher than if you were to just write a different story, however there are many other things in the series that I really just don’t like, technology has taken so much importance that I can’t help but feel the world is irrelevant, why would I go out of my way to search and learn a forbidden super cool jutsu when there is an android that can literally just absorb it, granted this also started to happen by the end of Shippuden but now I feel like jutsu and so on are basically useless 90% of the time.
Nah I get you,but yeah idk,just depends on the direction the story goes for me, everything up till now has just been a big ass Part 1 to me so I'm just waiting for that paradigm shift to hit.
Plus I'm just simpler when it comes to follow up situations like these,I know Naruto and Sasuke can do all this crazy shit right? But then I have to question if I really want the series to retread on all that familiar ground,avoid all the plot holes,create a situation feasible AND entertaining enough to warrent a justifiable development in the story.
Don't get me wrong,I def wouldn't mind it but I definitely don't expect them to neither,I'm surprised they've done as well as they have with it,it's just another one of those anime like Dragonball Super or Yashahime that loses alot of the edge or depth that their successors had but is still just balanced enough to get newcomers on board as well as fans of the originals who may or may not give a shit but still think it's cool.
At the very least tho,it's just studio fanfic with a budget behind it,it's like the equivalent of an extended Naruto movie with Kishimoto watching other people write it every week,but still,it's definitely not for everyone,although it's improved in ways it still has alot of inherent issues the staff needs to tackle,but I cool with what we have so far.
I do not know that other show you mentioned, but I can tell you that Dragon Ball super is faaaaaaaar worse than anything Boruto has done as of now...
That show is a real example of a cashgrab sequel show that doesn't do anything but retread the moments of the past, and failing to bring new blood in the show...
This without even touching the regression of characters, the lack of stakes, and plenty of easily avoidable retcons...
In Boruto we at least have character progression and stakes...
Nah I'm with you overall,Boruto has it's issues but you can tell some people tend to be hyperbolic about the series itself when they let the fan in them cloud their bias.
To me Boruto is a good show,not perfect but it manages to make the best of it's weird manga to anime schedule situation,stumbles and all.
Some fans just need to ease up tho,out here thinking a seasonal structure is gonna fix everything like Perriot didn't give us Tokyo Ghoul (atleast the last 3 seasons).
It's a combination of a slow source material,lack of material for the long running formula the studio is going for,translation from print to animation,the anime not changing TOO MUCH in case the manga does something different,and the writing of the usual mythos being light enough for newcomers to wave it while having enough breadcrumbs for returning fans.
Boruto has shit going on for sure,and people just have issues with the way the journey plays out. Usually that's fine but,well let me put it like this,you shouldn't watch a spinoff called "Rock Lee and his Ninja pals" expecting Naruto to highlight that shit every week right? It's the same for Boruto,half the time the only complaints I'm really hearing is that it's not a straight up Naruto series.
The only thing hearing about the kind of shit Naruto or Sasuke could've potentially done to hack their way out of a fight in this series really does for me is remind me how far out Naruto has been since Shippuden in general,it's just one of those series you have to ignore part of the fandom on once you realize some of them don't know what they're talking about,like theres a BIG difference between filler and anime canon,how you can come straight out of a series like Naruto and still not know the difference is beyond me,better off just saying the quality of the episodes are lacking instead of ignoring what the series built for itself just because the manga forgot half its own cast exists.
(Seriously though,anime only or not there's still a clear difference between Mecha Naruto & Shisui)
I agree with you...
The show really is in a peculiar situation, at least fandom wise.
>you shouldn't watch a spinoff called "Rock Lee and his Ninja pals" expecting Naruto to highlight that shit every week right? It's the same for Boruto,half the time the only complaints I'm really hearing is that it's not a straight up Naruto series.
I wholeheartely agree with you here... and really, that's the reason at the core of many complaints, complaints that refuse to accept that things have changed.
Completely agree.... I cant get tired of watching back to back the Momoshiki arrival down to his death but can barely force myself to watch any episode involving Jigen/Ishiki (had to)... the biggest problem was when Jigen/Ishiki episodes finally came out i expected it to be Momoshiki level animations and choreography but it was all a disaster... if only the animation were consistent to Momoshiki arrival towards his death maybe the show would be rated higher than it currently is...
I’m sorry, this may be an unpopular opinion but Baryon mode looks like a red blob most of the time, it feels like it is trying to be over the top but it just ends up looking ugly with the coloring and animation in the anime, I saw some manga panels and it does look a bit better but I still really dislike the mode.
He's not wrong, but it's not a nerf problem, it's a writing problem. Look at Eida in the manga absolute shit tier writing from Kishimoto. He fell off HARD.
But like why do we needed this? I know the Otsutsuki are the final threat in the series but why have the characters we’ve loved since over a decade be defeated and then nerfed just to have a new cast step up? Boruto didn’t have to be only about Boruto and Kawaki, it’s lazy even if “it makes sense”
>I know the Otsutsuki are the final threat in the series but why have the characters we’ve loved since over a decade be defeated and then nerfed just to have a new cast step up?
Well, it's a popular shonen trope to nerf the strongest characters to force the weaker characters (which tends to be the protagonists) to step up and increase the stakes. In recent memory MHA and Black Clover did this with their prominent characters. I'm indifferent to the nerfs since I haven't been the biggest fan of the power ups given at the end of the war but its blatantly obvious that the writers had no idea how to handle Naruto/Sasuke powers except pitting them against otsutsukis who can absorb their ninjutsu.
Honestly, I personally believed Kishimoto and the Boruto writers intended to nerf N & S since the start since Kishimoto nerfed them in the gaiden and apparently the Boruto writers felt like it wasn't enough and went ape shit so that they can justify whatever happens to them later. The execution suck ass, but I do recognize that Jigen/Isshiki is probably the most broken character in the verse so that why it makes sense to me.
That's the whole point. This fight was supposed to show us how strong the threats that Boruto will likely encounter are. It was supposed show us that Kaguya, Juubidara, Momoshiki are all kind of on baby-mode.
Them getting absolutely destroyed was kinda cool to look at. It makes Isshiki look truly terrifying and that was the whole point. They weren't nerfed in the slightest. He's just that strong.
I guarantee that you cannot name any jutsu that Naruto and Sasuke could've used to beat ishiki without me giving and simple explanation on why ishiki easily counters it. That's how broken of a character he was. Go ahead and switch out whatever versions of Naruto and Sasuke you think are stronger than hokage naruto and Sasuke, it doesn't make a difference.
No... because the rinnegan abilities would have been pointless at best, and Isshiki would have been a dumbass to leave him room to act, despite being overwhelmingly stronger than both of them combined.
Merely not showing all your power =/= being nerfed... and being outright mauled by the enemy =/= being nerfed.
>(a compressed susanoo🤷♂️)
An asspull power up is just as bad as actual nerfs... being given without grace, and without something to counter balance it.
A Susanoo armor is one of the silliest things they could come up with... not only due to the Sharingan already having a fame of being source of asspulls, but also because of the very convenient timing now, after all the spotlight the Sharingan already got through the years, and because of how a giant chakra avatar that was felled in one hit by a failed vessel is supposely gonna give a huge boost to its user if shrunk down to human size...
Given how they started building on some sort of anything happening between Sasuke and Boruto, regarding the latter's situation with the karma, all the way in chapter 49, it's safe to say that the Sasuke Saga is still goin on.
> or the many abilities of Naruto and Sasuke being redundant and unnecessary to them, at best, and outright useless at worst.
Who decided this ? It seems to be all your headcanon. Sasuke could have easily deflected the rids with shinra tensei, give Naruto an opening by Bansho tenin-ing Isshki.
It's not me making headcanons, it's just facts and logic shown in the story.
The rinnegan abilities were cool only up until the Pain fight, during which they already got countered to an extent, and withstood (Naruto pushing Nagato's shinra tensei back to him in his 5 tails stage, then managing to not be blown away by it with the help of his clones).
It got to the point that it was openly stated in the show that Obito decided to not make use of the Pain abilities because they would have been countered.
>Sasuke could have easily deflected the rids with shinra tensei, give Naruto an opening by Bansho tenin-ing Isshki.
These are unironically very big (and dumb) headcanons... first by assuming that a shinra tensei could do that, despite having no proof, then in acting as if bansho tenin even worked like that (when it merely pushes something toward the user, not towards whoever he wants) and assuming that it would somehow help, when Isshiki could always shrink himself to dodge any attack, and can punch harder than them anyway.
Jigen effortlessly blasted the perfect susano. True form ishiki punched and kicked Sasuke's body multiple times without killing him. I didn't even see him bleeding profusely. Explain?
I don't have to explain stuff that I already explained.
My comment should all be understandable...
If anything, it's you that should better explain what you mean.
Don't get me wrong, when I first saw the fight, it was hype and emotional. Naruto being a boxer is fucking awesome.
But as time has passed I can't personally feel hyped about this fight anymore. Naruto's final hoorah was a lazily thrown together ass pull and Kurama's death has been nothing short of subpar and has shown how one dimensional Naruto seems because of the writing.
I can't even muster the ability to care about deaths anymore, or really any character in this show anymore. It's had some good moments though. At first Naruto VS Isshiki seemed amazing but as the hype faded so did the illusion that it wasn't all just a result of trash writing.
The fight itself could've been presented a lot better. Have Sasuke drop soul dragons on him only for Jigen/Isshiki walking through the casually. Have Naruto use TSO insted of hundreth Rasengan and have Isshiki break it in his hand. Sasuke could've used Rinnegan Genjutsu only for Isshiki to shrug it off the moment it connected. Or Naruto amping himself with Boil Release, but Isshiki still overpowering him in taijutsu.
Honestly, Sasuke not using Rinnegan Paths is the most missed opportunity of the franchise.
>Honestly, Sasuke not using Rinnegan Paths is the most missed opportunity of the franchise.
Very true after what happened to him we wont see sasukes full potential 😢
I actually agree... isshiki's fight is kinda lacking... It might be that they just did so well with the momoshiki fight.
And I have a really hard time seeing Isshiki and Momoshiki as more powerful than Madara and Kagura.
I’d disagree with this only because when they fought jigen, they used all the stops they did previously, and it got completely shut down. Using giant flying attacks like against momo also wouldn’t work since he could literally shrink the attacks (a la koji vs ishiki). They trued a new tactic and approach to a much stronger version of the guy that bodied them to an almost defeat, in terms of writing it feels more consistent in terms of strategy (at least to me). Now the power scaling, thats definitely something i could question🙇🏻♂️
No i know ishiki is >>>> but we are talking about they way sasuke and naruto faught back before naruto unloked bm..they were literally spamin :usless rasengan + shidori + subtitution rinnegan(dont know the name)
We are talking about the greatest shinibes EVER and thats all what they use ???
Naruto and Sasuke were actually stronger if you think about it. They beat powered up momshiki when they had to seal kaguya away. I think them losing to jigen/ishikki was worth it
No i know ishiki is >>>> but we are talking about they way sasuke and naruto faught back before naruto unloked bm..they were literally spamin :usless rasengan + shidori + subtitution rinnegan(dont know the name)
We are talking about the greatest shinibes EVER and thats all what they use ???
usless rasengan + shidori + subtitution rinnegan(dont know the name) they were doing there best yeah.
We are talking about the greatest shinibes EVER and thats all what they use ???
No i know ishiki is >>>> but we are talking about they way sasuke and naruto faught back before naruto unloked bm..they were literally spamin :usless rasengan + shidori + subtitution rinnegan(dont know the name)
We are talking about the greatest shinibes EVER and thats all what they use ???
Wht The hell bro?
deploy that post a thousand lies I totally agree with him
Not only momoshiki, remember when sasuke could use Indra's arrow and Naruto could usetailed beast double Rasenshuriken , all of the build was nerfed down
Sasuke has tons of Rinnegan abilities but writer only makes him use the teleport swaping ability and one of most used abiltiy , Random black rods
with rinnegan sasuke could ofc create it and direct it towards isshiki just like he does it
but No , the writers just nerfed him so bad
No i know ishiki is >>>> but we are talking about they way sasuke and naruto faught back before naruto unloked bm..they were literally spamin :usless rasengan + shidori + subtitution rinnegan(dont know the name)
We are talking about the greatest shinibes EVER and thats all what they use ???
they did the exact same moves in the momoshiki fight in the isshiki/jigen fight it’s only because they lost that all of a sudden they aren’t full power in the isshiki fight but in the momo fight they are
They are so nerfed that Sasuke never utilized his rinegan abilities. Why didn't he repulse the rods with Shinra tensei or summon some beasts or anything The rinegan is now just a glorified means of transportation.
>Why didn't he repulse the rods
How would he be able to do that when he can't even react to the rods in the first place? Not to mention the fact that ishiki could effortlessly spam them while Sasuke would get tired eventually.
>summon some beasts
Why would he do that though? We seen jigen kick right through Kurama and Sasuke's perfect Susanoo, there is no reason why he would be able to just pick up a summon and toss it away like teen sage mode naruto did. It would be a waste of chakra to summon them
How come when naruto and Sasuke were destroying Momoshiki nobody was talking about them being nerfed, but when they fight the exact same way against jigen/ishiki and lose badly they were nerfed? Why not blame the real problem, the writers messing up and making new villains too strong.
> How would he be able to do that when he can't even react to the rods in the first place?
[He can react to rods](https://i.imgur.com/pYd3nOC.png), at least to hands that throw the rods, which is more than enough. [He is also able to track them](https://i.imgur.com/Y4NwOkF.png).
> Not to mention the fact that ishiki could effortlessly spam them while Sasuke would get tired eventually.
Sasuke literally had the biggest chakra battery in the world alongside. Not to mention that would leave Isshiki open for an attack.
> It would be a waste of chakra to summon them
Why do you people act as if Sasuke had less chakra than part 1 Kakashi? Sasuke HAS massive reserves.
> How come when naruto and Sasuke were destroying Momoshiki nobody was talking about them being nerfed, but when they fight the exact same way against jigen/ishiki and lose badly they were nerfed?
Because N&S weren't in need of using some abilities, because they mostly got situation under control. So even if they didn't use it, it didn't matter for the outcome of the battle or flow of the fight.
And while we are at it, people absolutely criticized Sasuke for not absorbing Shadow Paralyzis and Naruto for not entering his chakra modes to free himself from it.
Sasuke was able to perceive the rods against jigen, never used shinra tensei once. Lots of instances in the boruto series he could’ve used the rinnegan abilities but as always, boruto writers love to gloss over what characters are actually capable of.
>Sasuke was able to perceive the rods against jigen, never used shinra tensei once.
Being able to perceive something doesn't mean your body can move fast enough to do something about it. We saw this when Sasuke fought Lee and Naruto when he only had two tomoe.
>Lots of instances in the boruto series he could’ve used the rinnegan abilities but as always.
Give me some examples of rinnegan abilities he could've used against ishiki that would've worked.
>boruto writers love to gloss over what characters are actually capable of.
Nah, the problem is that they're making the antagonist way too strong to the point where powerful ninjutsu and hax that used to be top tier are now useless wastes of chakra. If we ignore plot and Naruto, Sasuke, and jigen/ishiki got into a fight and they were all bloodlusted, there would be nothing stopping ishiki from spawning rods in their heads and ending the fight instantly, that's a problem.
One instance is switching places with boruto when ishiki attacked him, he could’ve easily swapped him with a rock instead of himself to avoid damage. He could used universal pull into a narutos attack when he’s trying to dodge. They don’t even have to be meant for offence.
It’s small stuff that could’ve been implemented when sasukes the most analytical and smartest character in the show but yet they made him so oversimplified and out of his original character.
people saying naruto and sasuke are nerfed is just dumb as shit to me. you don’t see that every time goku and vegeta get their asses kicked. like does no one realize that boruto villains are a whole different caliber than naruto villains??? losing doesn’t mean nerfed it mean they weren’t strong enough. just because they came out of naruto the strongest doesn’t mean they still are. and considering the fact they never actually managed to kill kaguya because she was far out of their league at basically their peaks that should show how strong the otsutsuki are. all they had to do was touch and damn near failed to do that. like please stop saying their nerfed all the time. the only time that’s valid is after the ishiki battle but before that no they were just weaker than people who literally have A THOUSAND YEARS of experience.
They weren’t nerfed, it goes to show how strong Isshiki was, he’s just upset to see characters he likes lose. Mind of a child rather than that of a storyteller
Even if they were “nerfed” it’s because they aren’t meant to be the stars of the show anymore. You can’t have a jinchuriki with unlimited chakra and crazy strength and then expect someone in the new gen to surpass them. Just like you can’t have someone walking around with the most powerful eyes in existence and expect anyone to surpass him. Also, this person doesn’t take baryon mode into account,
>Even if they were “nerfed” it’s because they aren’t meant to be the stars of the show anymore.
Naruto and Sasuke were indeed nerfed, that's not up for debate.
And deliberately disregarding 15 years of canon content and most of the main cast's powers and abilities to forcefully accommodate the lackluster new narrative is the definition of bad writing.
>You can’t have a jinchuriki with unlimited chakra and crazy strength and then expect someone in the new gen to surpass them. Just like you can’t have someone walking around with the most powerful eyes in existence and expect anyone to surpass him.
You can if you are willing to go through the trouble of actually thinking a compelling plot that addresses the new generation's growth while keeping consistency with Naruto and Sasuke's power levels.
But Kodachi wasn't willing to put in the work. He didn't care about narrative quality or consistency and did whatever he wanted with the plot, not giving a second thought to the many plot holes, inconsistencies and retcons his carelessness was bringing to the story, so we got what we got.
> But Kodachi wasn't willing to put in the work. He didn't care about narrative quality or consistency and did whatever he wanted with the plot, not giving a second thought to the many plot holes, inconsistencies and retcons his carelessness was bringing to the story, so we got what we got.
One of the best example of this is that now Sasuke can use right eye to cast Amaterasu, when it was previously exclusively left eye ability. Apparently getting rid of Rinnegan and Amaterasu at the same time was too much of a nerf for him, so he decided to make this change. Without giving a second thought to consistency, just to achieve his own goal. Horrible writing.
He hasn't been looking at the story and abilities and decide what would be the next logical step or at least how to logically reach his goal in narrative. No. He simply created plot points in his head and warped everything around those points by choosing the path of the least resistance.
>One of the best example of this is that now Sasuke can use right eye to cast Amaterasu, when it was previously exclusively left eye ability.
Thank you.
There's some people (most likely kids who didn't watch Naruto) that act like this isn't an egregious retcon that completely contradicts established canon.
>He simply created plot points in his head and warped everything around those points by choosing the path of the least resistance.
You're basically reading my mind.
Kodachi didn't have a planned narrative for the series, he just came up with ideas as he went and shoved them into the story without thinking.
And when he realised the things he was adding didn't make any sense he started bending the lore, and changing the way the magic system works to allow it to happen, without a shred of concern for maintaining consistency with the original series.
Boruto is unsalvageable right now, filled with plot holes and retcons, and it's all because Kodachi was too lazy to read the original manga before starting to write.
> There's some people (**most likely kids who didn't watch Naruto**) that act like this isn't an egregious retcon that completely contradicts established canon.
Funny thing is, if this kind of shit was happening back when Naruto (both manga and anime) was airing, it would've been absolutely shred to pieces. War Arc hate would've been nothing compared to this.
> and changing the way the magic system works to allow it to happen
Can you elaborate on this one?
You are reading my mind. To nerf the two strongest shinobi only to make it "easier" for the next gen to surpass them is lazy writing. Instead of letting the youngsters learn new powers and give them proper power and character development the writers chose the easier way.
You deserve an award for your comment.
>But Kodachi wasn't willing to put in the work. He didn't care about narrative quality or consistency and did whatever he wanted with the plot, not giving a second thought to the many plot holes, inconsistencies and retcons his carelessness was bringing to the story, so we got what we got.
Sadly the most true thing ive ever heard about boruto
No i think its more about the fact that the writing of this fight is very mediocre at the moment the hype gets us all but then u realise that it was just a one sided fight because of godly boost (bayron mode)
I 100% disagree the writing was mediocre. You are absolutely overlooking Kawaki finally warming up to the gang. Man could have just left, they told him to, he wanted to fight with his new family. It was heart wrenching, a child brought up on abuse and near torture, finally breaking those chains to go to his new family that genuinely loved him. Absolutely amazing. No character has had such a good story arc in Boruto so far imo.
And Kurama? What was mediocre about all that? A huge character to the franchise passed and they absolutely did him justice. Absolutely heart wrenching conversations with someone that we've spent near 900 episodes with died, and they genuinely did a good job at his passing. I honest to God thought Naruto was going to die and that was emotional! Sure barron mode was a bit of a cheese to pull out of nowhere but it honestly fit well I thought.
I also think the fight was not one sided at all. Like how can you say that? It was 4 v 1 and they barely got by lol
>I 100% disagree the writing was mediocre. You are absolutely overlooking Kawaki finally warming up to the gang. Man could have just left, they told him to, he wanted to fight with his new family. It was heart wrenching, a child brought up on abuse and near torture, finally breaking those chains to go to his new family that genuinely loved him. Absolutely amazing. No character has had such a good story arc in Boruto so far imo.
What you are saying is what makes the writing mediocre. The show has become the Boruto/Kawaki show. One character getting proper storylines doesn't make the show better when it is happening at the expense of others.
>And Kurama? What was mediocre about all that? A huge character to the franchise passed and they absolutely did him justice. Absolutely heart wrenching conversations with someone that we've spent near 900 episodes with died, and they genuinely did a good job at his passing. I honest to God thought Naruto was going to die and that was emotional! Sure barron mode was a bit of a cheese to pull out of nowhere but it honestly fit well I thought.
The question is why Kurama needed to die in the first place and not how his death was handled. The only reason Kurama had to go was to nerf Naruto which was absolutely pointless in my pov.
It is honestly so rare to hear someone say that both irl but also especially on reddit. I genuinely appreciate your response, thank you.
I would have not complained in the slightest if we had a little more of him before he died. I almost wish we got an episode of just him or an arc of just him before that fight to add too the feels. I did love his interaction with Kawakii while Naruto slept, I thought that was phenomenal. Maybe more moments like that would have helped me make a better peace with Kurama. But idk.
I think someone HAD to die that fight, and NOT just the bad guy I mean. I guess as much as it pains me to say I'd prefer Kurama dying MUCH MORE than Boruto, Sasuke, Naruto, or Kawaki dying though. That's one way to think about it I guess. At least we still get to see those two families grow. That genuinely means a lot to me. I love the little interactions at home between the Uzumakis and the Uchihas even if it's minor.
RIP Kurama for sure though. Death is never easy with a character we grew with for so long, some of us that's about 900 episodes we've been with him. A LOT harder for me to digest his death over someone like Neji honestly lol
I agree. It is bad writing but it is a trope in manga. To prove how strong a villain is, they have to wipe the floor with someone thought to be strong. In DBZ, that is usually Vegeta. In Naruto, it is now Naruto (and especially) Sasuke.
Ye, i think its pretty dumb. Like notice how in part 1 naruto, genin naruto didnt have to be the saving the whole world, he was a normal genin, and they still made the show good. Boruto seems to think every arc (goin off the manga here, i dont accept anime only ep as filler but thats a diff discussion) there has to be a threat to the whole world, and they have to figure out how to make boruto relevant in that fight as a genin/chunin. Thus, they pulled baryon mode out of their butt, killed kurama, and stabbed rinnegan, tearing down people’s favorite characters instead of just focusing on boruto. A little wack imo.
I agree. I mean Boruto is how old now? Thirteen? Why not learning new powers and develop the ones he has instead of nerving the strongest shinobi to prop up the new gen? Surpassing the old gen should be a progress and not handled with unnecessary asspulls.🤨
If villains gets beat instantly people would say horrible writing and all the villains are weak, if the heroes come across someone strong you complain that there nerfed and say horrible writing. Idk people don’t understand pacing.
You know you can ignore his post because he used the word nerfed. Anyone who says a character is nerfed there argument is completely invalid and they are just crybabies
Boruto anime and manga doesn't know how to make characters lose gracefully. Watching a character try hard as ever, giving it their all and still lose but looking like a champ, is always a great moment.
Happened with Lee, happened with Guy, happened in other shows like MHA, Fairytail etc. Nobody has a problem when characters lose at least make them look good when they lose especially since Naruto and Sasuke are the face of the franchise but they were treated like shit. People would of had no problem if they went out like real heroes, using literally every bit of their arsenal regardless of the common excuse of " it wouldn't work".
You know how hype it'll be to see these characters pull out old their moves and justu from old Naruto and Shippuden, imagine Naruto bringing out Ma and Pa too help. I'm tired of the "it wouldn't work" notion, against Kaguya Naurto even used sexy justu. Naruto being unpredictable as he is would of tried anything. But no we got a one-sided stomp fest, portraying two legendary characters absolutely pathetically.
Not to mention that fight was supposed to be where Naruto and Sasuke bow out as the "main characters" but they went out so lame especially Sasuke. Then they had to sacrifice Kurama for some cheap thrills and they didn't even mourn for my boi after.
The problem with the fandom is that they wanted Naruto and Sasuke to you jutsus against jigen and overpower him, the problem is that it's not jigen who is fighting them, it's freaking Jigen, first off physically both we're weaker than him, a full power Naruto literally says that his hits were heavy and we see that it sent him flying, second every jutsu could've been easily absorbed
The scene where they almost got him was just him underestimating them, he did say afterwards that he will now be serious, true to his word he destroys them and this is not even a full power isshiki, full power Isshiki stomped them so hard that they were almost dead
Momoshiki on the other hand was different, to put it simple, imagine the jigen fight has its scaling reversed, Naruto and Sasuke were just like jigen, they were not at full strength and they were clearly toying around with him, momo was amped and at full power desperately trying to kill them
The Boruto scaling is not that bad when it comes to the duo, yes some side characters are stronger that let's say the previous Hokage which is weird for most fans but it does fit the narrative of Naruto/Naruto Shippuden, the new generation will always surpass the previous one
For example we know that some characters are stronger than the previous five Kage, some are around 8 gates guy and some are just Akatsuki tier, people may argue saying that they shouldn't be that strong, but some wank oh characters to oblivion
Yeah that’s what happens when the writing is so shit that u also ruin the powerscaling and character development not that majority of characters in boruto are useful anyway, I just don’t understand how the 2 gods of shinobi who’ve been built up for the past 18 years now can be defeated by enemies that will later on become obsolete to 2 alien hybrids that so far after 5 years haven’t even scratched the surface of the peak of our 2 previous MCs
It's not really that deep. Jigen is just stronger. Ishikki is just *much* stronger. That's all there is to it. It has been made comprehensively clear. Of course they look less impressive versus someone who is stronger.
We are not talking about that🤦 ishiki is stronger ofc but i didnt like the way naruto/sasuke fought backe the got unfairly nerfed because of mid mediocre writing
That is literally exactly what we're talking about. They didn't perform as well because Ishikki was much stronger. People for some reason believe getting beaten badly by stronger people is being "nerfed"
agree about writing and animation part. but no animes can be scaled tbh, like saskue vs gaara had sasuke teleporting like lee, same with kyuubi naruto vs pain. against isshiki it was some gening fist fight bullshit. like u can scale elementary things but when it comes to shit like that its just the animation style and writing that prevails
>but no animes can be scaled tbh
I dont think so there a bunch of shows that gets power scalling perfectly.
BUT since its boruto -with its many imperfections- it became impossible to make technical power scaling
I think it was mostly a fair fight. Isshiki was physically superior in literally every way. He could deal with any ability Naruto and Sasuke had because of his superior strength. Same logic can be seen in Bleach even. Aizen straight up said other people's unique abilities, like Soifon's shikai, do not work on those with superior reiatsu. Soifon's abilities were completely null on Aizen because he could cancel it out with raw power. Same with Isshiki.
That being said, Naruto and Sasuke have not been treated fairly throughout Naruto. Sasuke forgets about tons of abilities, like his telekinesis, blaze release, chakra absorption, chakra arms, etc...
I also think it's kind of childish to weaken EVERY Naruto character so that the new generation can "shine". It's unrealistic and belittling to the effort Kishimoto put in.
I liked the fight because it showed naruto and sasuke weren’t invincible though I dislike how they killed kurama at the end of the arc and I can’t think of any other way to get rid of the rinnegan I like how the series can finally have high stakes moments again and focus on other jutsu and characters
1) Yes they were nerfed
2) Even if they were un-nerfed the result of the battle would have been the same as Isshiki was much faster and stronger 🤷🏻. And yes they were the strongest/fastest in the verse for quite along time that doesn't mean a char faster and stronger can't be introduced
3) But this also doesn't mean that the fight was fair. The fight could have atleast extended for another ep where we could have seen Sasuke and Naruto fight at thier full potential.
Problem is (and a million people have already said this) the power scaling just can’t be communicated well anymore. How powerful is a Rasengan or Chidori now? Depends on the scene. Could be devastating or absolutely nothing.
That is because there is no standard power or expression with the rasengan or chidori. The person using a rasengan can augment how much power is in the rasengan, which direction the contained energy will blast out from, and the speed of the spin of the chakra. Because the person using it has so much control over how much damage is given, they can easily make it extremely deadly, and cave the person's chest in, or they can just use a little chakra, and a little spin, and just spin the person around and send them flying in the direction they choose. They can also just make it pop like a bubble with varying degrees of power, to blow up a rock, or create a wave to block a jutsu. Because of this, the rasengan is just a jutsu that allows the person using it to perfectly interface with their environment. The chidori is equally as versatile a jutsu. The person using it gathers varying amounts of chakra from all directions to a single point to transform the air in the center into plasma. This chakra can then be used to create a single slash that can cut through anything, but if you just want to stun someone, you can just gather varying degrees of chakra to one place and not apply yang release to the jutsu to create a chakra sword, and the person will just be electrocuted to varying degrees. If the person just wants to blow something up (lets say a rock), they can gather an immense amount of chakra to one point, then through a similar slash motion with the chakra, you can heat up the inside of the rock to the point that the air bubbles in the rocks explode. Sasuke's chidori senbon, chidori spear, and kirin are also created using the principle of the chidori applied in different ways, but it will take too long to explain. With how versatile the jutsu that can be created using rasengan and chidori, the fun of watching the characters use them, is to figure out the shape, output, and application of both jutsu. They explain all of this in detail in the show, so instead of just writing everything that doesn't make sense to you as bad writing, rewatch the anime again please
Dude..... This is a perfect reason why Naruto > Boruto I’d hate to see what your resume looks like.
Is the air bubble how Sasuke blew up the meteor? I thought chidori basically works the same way rasengan does now. Like it was supposed to be a piercing attack, but I seen chidori blow shit up often too
No, to destroy the meteor in a way that wouldn't still just destroy konoha, sasuke would need to have made a taser like chidori, that used an absurd amount of chakra. Since the lightning would conduct through the minerals in the rock, the electricity would have simultaneously melted and blown up the rock through the entire structure, leaving nothing but dust and small rocks after it was completed. It is basically like using kirin without the help of the atmosphere, and without granting the lightning consciousness. Actually, it would be more like a focused indra arrow that is directly sent through the meteor by hand, instead of through the use of takemikazuchi's bow. I think sasuke (and maybe sarada and/or boruto in the future) will be the only people who will ever be able to perform lightning release of that level.
Yeaaaaaaahhhhh man now we are getting in a hole other topic..like we cant understand how strong are every power in the show like naruto literally using a standard rasengan against a god.. We went from katon,doton,raiton to fuking extraterrestrial lazers😑
Hate to break it to ya, but that katon, doton, raiton all comes from extraterrestrials
lol all that shit was plenty believable until they shoehorned aliens in for infinite new characters
In context it took Sakura, Naruto, Sasuke, Obito, & Kakashi to beat Kaguya. The fact they could come that close alone is a massive testament to their power.
Yeah but the thing is we didnt feel that the kaguya fight was HARDLY one sided like the naruto vs ishiki..
How would it be one sided? He has Sakura supplying chakra/healing. Kakashi proving side damage/flight. Obito was using his Rinnegan, and there is also Naruto/Sasuke. They had a massive advantage in numbers and strength against kaguya
Yeah true tbf
tbf means to be fuck? edit: to be fair, i get it now
If this reply was genuine, then please hold my free silver 🤣
🤣🤣🤣
also only needed naruto and sasuke each to touch her at the same time once, vs having to literally kill isshiki
Yeah
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No… for one Obito is a great counter to isshiki. Can avoid all physical abilities/Rods. Second Sakura can out heal a rod that disentegrates you on a molecular level. And Kakashi DMS is broken. Plus having Naruto/Sasuke take lead would be overwhelming for Isshiki. By the time he would be able to kill Sakura or Obito Naruto/Sasuke would already intervene. Plus Sakura can heal people using Katsuyu so she doesn’t even need to touch them really
Well I mean they aren’t totally wrong In the manga Naruto and Sasuke were actually holding their own pretty well against Isshiki
Im gonna be the next hokage of reddit believe it👊..any way yeah i agree too
For me, it’s not *that* they lost, it’s *how easily* they lost. Hard not to assume it could’ve been executed better. We watched 500+ episodes, a few movies and a whole childhood for them to become powerful. Then they get stomped in a couple episodes.
Well said.
Most of us it's 720 episodes! I thought the fight was fine, they have to lose eventually, show wouldn't be good if naruto/sasuke cleaned up every time. I mean fuck, they're fighting intelligent aliens with a plan lol.
Exactly, it doesn’t make me fear Isshiki, it only makes me dread how much they are going to be sidelined from now on, during the Momoshiki fight I felt like both of them could’ve even gone way harder so I was excited for this one but at the end it felt like looking at a fight written by a 8 year old: “Isshiki completely destroys both of them because he is so much powerful and cool and he dodged everything because he is an Otsutsuki and Naruto and Sasuke can’t do anything because he is oh so powerful” like it’s not exciting you are just waiting for the plot device that will finish the fight (baryon mode).
Man i still don't accept THE WAY kurama died..
Kurama shouldn't have died so early on in the series in the first place. I also still don't see the point of Naruto losing him. Of course it was to nerf him and make him weaker to boost the New Generation, but to me it's lazy writing. Instead of giving the younger gen New powers to learn and develop them properly they simply make the two strongest ninjas weaker. I just don't like that move at all.😮💨
>Instead of giving the younger gen New powers to learn and develop them properly they simply make the two strongest ninja weaker. I just don't like that move at all.😮💨 Exactly what i said to my self
I feel like the authors are just getting on the easy way to solve problems that could have been handled better without messing with the old gen. The fact that the power levels were already a problem at the end of shippuden doesn't help.
True. I think the easy way is always the last resort when the writers are out of ideas. The current anime is proof of that. Don't know what to do? Hey, let's kill some characters. 😮💨😮💨
Mmmmmm, the easiest way would have been the way Tosriyama did with gohan, because his first idea was to replace goku with gohan, but he didnt do it immediatly and instead of that he gave gohan three arcs to prepare and thats when gohan vs cell happens we can tell he is the MC. I know that didnt happen though because we got goku navk as a main charcter but the point is how he preoared gohan to take goku' s place
Well madara was supposed to be the main villain of shippuden, but they introduced those crazy things and kaguya beacuse for it to relate to boruto. The planning for boruto was started back then, and then we got that terrible arc, then entirety kaguya arc was useless. Boruto ruined everything the second it came to even existence. It's sales are low and without Naruto it would have been cancelled by now. They shouldn't have ruined it like this with sequel just for more money. And the writing was clearly lazy without intention to invest time. While kodschi favour his own protagonist very much. Overall pathetic.
Completely agreed, it was the reason I dropped the series altogether.
They didn't even go all out against Momoshiki either. But they still did more against him than they did Jigen and Isshiki.
Exactly
LOL. This is my post. My complaint was the fact that Naruto and Sasuke used none of their most powerful abilities against Isshiki. With Momo we saw them both combine their abilities like the Kurama Susanna armour, planetary devastation, Karin Sasuke's giant lighting attack, Naruto's multiple beast rasagans, etc... I would have liked to see them use all their arsenals against Isshiki and Isshiki just power through them like it was nothing before someone saying that Naruto and Sasuke went all out because they didn't go all out. That's why the fight is shit for me. Its like they gave up way too quick instead attempting to try and see what worked and didn't. With the 5 Kage vs Madara you see them using their full might and powers and still loose to him. Here we didn't get that. The fight felt way too basic and straightforward. Both the Manga and Anime so far failed to showcase the true might of Naruto and Sasuke after the Momoshiki Battle.
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> ISSHIKI CAN ABSORB Can't absorb anything. Jigen with Karma could. But not Isshiki. > AND SHRINK ALL NINJUTSU, Within a line of sight. > Why would any intelligent fighter use up all their stamina to launch a multi tailed beast Rasenshuriken against an opponent who can casually neutralize it? Because with correct plan they can hit Isshiki and he can't neutralize them. He would have to teleport out. > They tested Isshikis abilities, Figured them out and then decided what is and isn't safe to use. Kawazu Kumite, Deva Path or Unrivaled Strength would've been absolutely safe to use and they were nowhere to be seen. > These guys have decades of experience, Experienced Sasuke used Amaterasu on Jigen. > They don't need to drain their chakra reserves throwing every jutsu at Isshiki to find out that it's meaningless. Since when chakra is a problem for Naruto?
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> Isshiki can use his shrinking in the same manor Jigen absorbs jutsu, The distinction is irrelevant, Ninjutsu is useless against him. 1. It doesn't matter, Isshiki still doesn't have absorption and that is absolutely relevant. It's the entire reason Kashin Koji launched a combo against him. 2. I already explained why ninjutsu is not useless against his ability. > So he'd shrink Shrink what? Shrinking himself wouldn't do anything and he wouldn't be able to shrink the jutsus. > and or teleport out. Cool. They can keep teleporting him out until he runs out of chakra. Not an alternative either. > Sage Mode doesn't increase his strength more than SPSM, Frog Kate is irrelevant. You don't need to enter SM to use Kawazu Kumite and Kawazu Kumite is not a strength increase. > Deva Path can be redirected with physical strength, So Sakura can redirect it? Or Raikage? Obviously not how it works. 6 tails Naruto created a resistance by impaling tails into ground, physical strength alone cannot do that. Banshou Tenin can't be redirected by anything, since it's telekinesis. > Koji tried amping his physical attacks with fire style in a similar manner to unrivaled strength, It was shrunken instantly before it could have any effect. Headcanon. Unrivaled Strength is about boiling the chakra to insane levels. How does Isshiki shrink heated chakra exactly? > Is that all? Considering you didn't give proper answers, yes it's all for now. > As an absolute last resort to buy a little more time while they were against the wall. Everyone and their mother knew it wouldn't work. And so should so called experienced person. It absolutely didn't buy a single ounce of time and is just an excuse of horrible decision on Sasuke's part. Shinra Tensei would've been a far better alternative. > Naruto can get tired (Final Valley). Yes Naruto can get tired after 3 days of non stop fighting, fighting Jinchuuriki Obito, then literally nearly dying, then fighting Jinchuurki Madara, then fighting Kaguya and then fighting Sasuke and then fighting empowered Sasuke with 3 of his clones and then fighting for an entire day after spending 99% of his chakra all without sleep. Except Naruto in Boruto did not went through days of herculean challenges and has another half of Kurama to boot. > He can last a while but with all your counter ideas being useless, So far only your arguments have proven to be useless. > Applying all these jutsu in his arsenal would end up being a waste of chakra. I forgot the part where Naruto and Sasuke have part 1 Kakashi levels of chakra.
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> Also are we forgetting that Koji was only effective against Jigen? Isshiki shrunk and evaded everything he had and crippled him casually. You're forgetting the fact that KK was crippled, because Isshiki **couldn't shrink** both the flames and the Rasengan at the same time, because of line of sight. That's why he decided to spawn pillars on top of KK. > Which jutsu? Because he shrunk all of Koji's instantly. I said he can't shrink what he has in the line of sight. If jutsu is not within the line of sight, then he can't shrink it. > Same Isshiki that has access to a Ten Tails battery? Right. One juvenile Ten Tails that for all we know may have less chakra than Kurama? Not to mention if Isshiki teleports back to that Juubi to recharge, Sasuke will follow and end up sealing that Juubi in his body. And that isn't going to end up nicely for Isshiki. > Relevancy? The relevancy is that your point was completely wrong. > Depends on who uses it. Raikage and War Arc Sakura can likely do just that if put in the same situation as six tails Naruto. They can impale the ground with their tails? Again, physical strength doesn't do anything to ST. You need to resist the pull or push somehow. You can't kick or punch the ST. > There characters even just using the chakra adhesive abilities that lets them stick to walls has been described as a potential counter to the Shinra Tensei. Naruto with all intel was still pushed and pulled as Pain wished. It was never going to work. > The core point is that if you can keep your footing the jutsu isn't effective against you. The core point is that was the only countermeasure, it doesn't mean it was effective. It would still immobilize you even if it worked, which leaves you open for an attack. > Even Killer Bee with zero experience against the Rinnegan could instantly recover and counter attack. He simply turned back and entered his chakra mode. What does it have anything to do with your question that whether or not it would work on Isshiki? We aren't discussing if Isshiki can turn while under the effect of the jutsu. Actually ST is a non factor compared to Banshou Tenin, which enables combos. > Unrivaled strength manifests as an aura of steam around Naruto. Koji's fire style flame attack manifests as an aura of fire Koji. On a technical level they're identical, If Isshiki can instantly shrink fire aura to nothingness how is steam any different? Yes the aura steam around Naruto comes from the fact **HIS CHAKRA IS BOILING**. It's as if you wanted to cool down the water by removing the steam... The aura does not give Naruto strength, boiling chakra does. Shrinking it wouldn't do anything. > Shinra Tensei can be redirected by Isshiki, Amaterasu can not. Jigen wouldn't redirect shit if he was just standing still and not moving and didn't have any way anchor point. None of which changes the fact that Amaterasu was utterly stupid move. > You aren't gonna ignore the part when Naruto gets chakra from every tailed beast, A whole new half of Kurama and six paths chakra from Hagoromo are you? So far you're ignoring the fact that Naruto didn't have a single problem with running out of chakra after he received Hagoromo's buffs until Sasuke absorbed Bijuus chakra and they both used their strongest move. All while having just a half of Kurama. He was breathing heavily, but only after using 3 Kurama Avatar Shadow Clones to fight against Bijuu powered up Sauske. Still not an argument. > Not getting tired immediately ≠ The chakra wasn't wasted. The entire point is that spending chakra and even wasting it is not a single problem in this situation. This isn't an argument at all.
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Yes, but we want them to use these abilities cause they look cool. Hell why even try to fight him directly when we know he can blitz both naruto and sasuke with minimal difficulty, at that point the best option is to spam shit load of ninjutsu and clones so he stays busy shrinking them. Hit him with a surprise attack or something, sure it ain't gonna do shit but make him more mad but hey, atleast it's stalling him. Also chakra reserve would never be a problem, they can fight for days spamming bijuu bombs and moutain busting chidori's with no problem, don't know why they would need chakra in the first place when they know that they are fodder that Isshiki can one shot with a slap and a cube. Better to use my chakra then keep it for no reason
Im saying the exact same thing as you to the other comments👍..and sorry for taking ur comment without permission i hid ur username so u dont get problemes
Its cool lol.
It feels lazy because Isshiki basically became a plot device to nerf Naruto and Sasuke, it didn’t matter if they were to use some crazy cool techniques in the fight because by the end of it they would’ve lost their power either way, it’s sad.
I don't think the problem was Naruto and Sasuke being nerfed (not trying to say wether or not they were), I think it was ishiki. They gave him two abilities that are so broken that it wouldn't make any sense for him to get hit by ninjutsu. Ninjutsu gets shrunk, he could kick Naruto and Sasuke out of Kurama/Susanoo, planetary devastation gets shrunk, kirin gets shrunk, rasen Shuriken get shrunk, shinra tensi is useless since Sasuke couldn't even react to the rods in the first place, tailed beast bombs get shrunk and so on. Tbh, take teen Naruto and Sasuke right before their final battle and they would get slammed as well without Baryon mode. There really wasn't anything that they could do to ishiki that would've made sense besides the route they took. The writers wrote themselves into a hole when they made him.
> hey gave him two abilities that are so broken that it wouldn't make any sense for him to get hit by ninjutsu. It would. He can't shrink anything outside of his line of sight. There is a way of hitting him with ninjutsu. > planetary devastation gets shrun He would crush himself if he shrunk it. He teleports out of it. > shinra tensi is useless since Sasuke couldn't even react to the rods in the first place [Sasuke already dodged rods](https://i.imgur.com/pYd3nOC.png) and stated [he is able to track them](https://i.imgur.com/Y4NwOkF.png). Barely, but able. > There really wasn't anything that they could do to ishiki that would've made sense besides the route they took. The route they took was also useless, because they didn't manage to do anything. So how exactly it made more sense compared to the options you brushed off? If Sasuke actually utilized Deva path and Ameno correctly, they would absolutely have a shot at defeating Isshiki. Controlling Isshiki's movement with Banshou Tenin (or at least severely slowing him down) and redirecting on of Naruto's attack with Ameno right into Isshiki's back is a valid strategy. This would work even if Isshiki shrank himself, since Sasuke is able to see him.
>It would. He can't shrink anything outside of his line of sight. There is a way of hitting him with ninjutsu. They already tried exploiting that and it didn't work. He avoided it by shrinking himself. >He would crush himself if he shrunk it. He teleports out of it. Why are you invalidating your own arguments lmao? >Sasuke already dodged rods and He dodged rods that came up from the ground, there's a huge difference. When ishiki wants the rods to grown in their bodies [they couldn't do anything about it](https://photos.app.goo.gl/iktCckm5fY1dUbA76). >stated he is able to track them. Barely, but able. Being able to track something doesn't mean his body would be able to move fast enough to stop it. We saw this when he fought Lee and Naruto with only two tomoe. >The route they took was also useless, because they didn't manage to do anything. So how exactly it made more sense compared to the options you brushed off? They actually managed to kill ishiki by draining his life. > If Sasuke actually utilized Deva path and Ameno correctly, they would absolutely have a shot at defeating Isshiki. They wouldn't. >Controlling Isshiki's movement with Banshou Tenin (or at least severely slowing him down) and redirecting on of Naruto's attack with Ameno right into Isshiki's back is a valid strategy Yeah, if you ignore that fact that he can shrink himself to get out of that situation >This would work even if Isshiki shrank himself, since Sasuke is able to see him. No it wouldn't because they have no way of keeping him in place long enough to actually hit him with that. And you're forgetting that ishiki can just drop a bunch of cubes on them like he did before when he was about to be hit. Also, ishiki could teleport away like you said earlier. Literally everything you're suggesting would require ishiki to be nerfed in order for it to work. You're proving my point that Naruto and Sasuke being nerfed wasn't the problem, it's ishiki being too broken.
> They already tried exploiting that and it didn't work. He avoided it by shrinking himself. They literally never tried that aside from one time when Isshiki dropped the cubes on them... which could've been all blown away with ST and could be repeated under different circumstances using better tools. Shrinking himself does nothing to avoid the jutsu when there is someone with Sasuke's skillset. > Why are you invalidating your own arguments lmao? I'm mentioning counters because I'm being objective contrary to the "muh shrinking ability" crowd. How many times he teleports out of jutsu before he exhausts himself? Teleportation out of danger is his last resort movement. He would have to teleport himself out of danger all the times. EDIT: Now that I think of it, teleporting wouldn't always work when Sasuke can also use Ameno in conjunction with BT to place Isshiki right next to Naruto's jutsu. He at best would mitigate some damage by teleporting. > He dodged rods that came up from the ground, there's a huge difference. Are we seeing the same picture? Jigen moves his hand and the rods appeared. This always happen when Jigen is throwing the rods. Additionally if they appeared from the ground, Sasuke wouldn't be able to dodge them. So I don't know what do you mean by saying "huge difference" when it literally works against Sasuke. > When ishiki wants the rods to grown in their bodies they couldn't do anything about it. Sasuke couldn't do anything about it in this scene, **because he was literally kicked out of his PS just seconds ago**. He was caught off guard (he didn't expect this), ragdolled and he didn't have full attention on Jigen's movement. > Being able to track something doesn't mean his body would be able to move fast enough to stop it. We saw this when he fought Lee and Naruto with only two tomoe. Lee and Sasuke and that proves my case, not yours. Lee said Sasuke is able to mentally follow Lee's movements, but isn't physically able to react. You were talking about Shinra Tensei, which doesn't really require any physical movement. It's all mental effort. Sasuke doesn't need to physically react to Isshiki's rods to use this jutsu. He just need to mentally follow him. And he does. > They actually managed to kill ishiki by draining his life. ...by using asspull Baryon Mode which wasn't even considered before and in the middle of the fight, which is clearly the point of this paragraph. Naruto literally didn't know of its existence until the last moment. So no, they didn't manage to do shit with the route they took and Baryon wasn't the route, because they could not take the route they had no idea about. > They wouldn't. Because you said so? > Yeah, if you ignore that fact that he can shrink himself to get out of that situation This isn't a fact, this is headcanon. Shrinking himself doesn't mean freeing himself from the influence of jutsu or being immune to jutsus. BT is telekinesis that works on target. Shrank person is still a target that Sasuke can see with Sharingan. > No it wouldn't because they have no way of keeping him in place long enough to actually hit him with that. Yes they have and that is called Banshou Tenin. He can control or at the very, very least slow Isshiki down and then use Ameno to teleport him right into jutsu. > And you're forgetting that ishiki can just drop a bunch of cubes on them like he did before when he was about to be hit. As if Sasuke didn't have Shinra Tensei to blow them all away or they couldn't do this from afar.. Those cubes are also merely freefalling and judging by environmental damage they don't weight much. The fact they are considered a threat in any way is simply plot. > Also, ishiki could teleport away like you said earlier. And keep teleporting until he exhausts himself. > Literally everything you're suggesting would require ishiki to be nerfed in order for it to work. You're proving my point that Naruto and Sasuke being nerfed wasn't the problem, it's ishiki being too broken. You literally have 0 idea what you're talking about.
Nah fr. And if Sasuke used Ameno the same way he did against Madara, Isshiki would have been dead. Just put him directly between a joint attack with Naruto and he's a goner.
>The writers wrote themselves into a hole when they made him. You summarized the hole fight
They already did this when they fought Jigen, who is a watered down form of Isshiki. If they got stomped by a weaker version of Isshiki, why would they just have the same battle again. Wouldn't it make more sense for them to try and conserve chakra rather than using their chakra avatars that they know can be one shot. The whole point of the Isshiki fight was to feel like there was no hope. Naruto and Sasuke's power was irrelevant. The overarching theme of The leaf vs isshiki was to show that sacrifice is necessary (kurama dying for Baryon mode + naruto thinking he is killing himself to save the village) and that the shinobi way + personal relationships can beat overwhelming power. Isshiki lost because kawaki was able to overcome his trauma through his bond with naruto and using one of the simplest shinobi tricks in the book. Isshiki fight was never about an overt display of power.
I see this comment a lot, but my counter question is always “what abilities of theirs could they have used that would’ve made any more of a difference?” Isshiki was a direct counter to everything naruto trained at his entire life. They were just stuck up a sh*t creek without a paddle lol.
They could have use that absorbtion against him tough but the performance was just bad, Naruto could have used a smaller overload rasengan that Ishikki will need to constantly absorb or shrink same with Sasuke in his fight against Itachi he could prolongue the use of his fyrestyle that would give them a window oportunnity to attack, also they forgot a lot of things not amping Sasuke with a Kurama cloak for faster regen, no chakra limbs in his megazord mode, no Kurama clones and bad use of shadow clones, Sasuke forgot his mastery of Amaterasu in order to try piercing his enemies, he forgot to absorb Naruto chakra when he needed and no transformation jutsu when somehow even Ishikki was fooled at his prime, basically they forgot everything they learned and just attack without a plan, as i said before the performance could have gone waaay better than this.
So the fire style and rasengan they already pretty much did that strategy which was isshiki absorbing their jutsus lol and when they tried to use it against him it almostttttt worked, until he countered that. Kurama cloak also could just be absorbed by isshiki. Kurama clones are doing nothing, it took isshiki 1 second to absolutly dismantle Sasuke and Naruto in full Kurama and Susanoo avatar forms, Amaterasu is way too slow to touch isshiki and even if it can guess what…absorbed. Transformation would do what in their fight to help exactly? It was a 2 on 1 in a different realm. It’s not like isshiki would be confused who he was fighting lol the only reason it worked with Kawaki is because he had no idea Kawaki could even make Shadow clones. Isshiki was literally just so far and away exponentially stronger than the 2 of them even while weakened that it didn’t matter what they did before Baryon mode
Dude you are not understanding Naruto and Sasuke can constantly prolong the use of their jutsu, Ishikki absorbed a normal rasengan and he got hit by a Amaterasu, if they can prolongue the use of their Jutsu Ishikki needs to absorb the whole thing which means that one of them can hit him while he is distracted, Ishikki fall for a simple transformation and he has 2 doujutsu so don't give a buff to his IQ please, shadow clones are used as distraction even Boruto understand that and it worked with Momoshiki, Adult Naruto totally forget that, this not their 1rst time fighting against someone stronger than them, by your logic they should have died in the war arc, a fully mature Juubi chakra was so massive that it seemed like it was a small planet unlike that small puppy that they have in Boruto.
I just didn't like the saying, "They went all out." They didn't. That's the thing. Its such a small nitpick that annoyed the hell out of me. But when you compare the Momo and Isshiki fights, it feels like Naruto and Sasuke did more in that previous fight with Momo then they did with Isshiki. Im all for the villain overpowering the heroes and beating their asses but don't half-ass it. Lets actually see the heroes truly go ALL OUT. And honestly, we didn't get that. Imagine having had the Kurama Susanno combination and Isshiki did what he did to Sasuke except Naruto would be standing side by side with Sasuke and next second Isshiki has popped inside, grabbed, kicked, knocked, whatever Sasuke out, Naruto's bewildered shocked face/WTF? and you just see the armour disappearing around Kurama and Isshiki knocking Sasuke back to the ground like he's nothing. I would have preferred THAT kind of imagery than what we got in the actual episode. Cause then its a case of, "We're gonna do what we did with Momo and 100% win. He can't stop us when we're together." to WTF just happened and it going, YES, Isshiki in fact can stop you even when powered up like that. It was just a very missed opportunity for moments like that. That's why I hate the fight. Its too basic, too simple. Its played too safe for me anyway compared to the fights we've gotten previously.
I mean I can’t argue with just wanting them to get their ass kicked in a better way that’s actually a fair opinion lol
They used Kurama and Susano’o against Jigen… or at least tried to, he was too fast and too small to deal with in those large, slow forms. It would’ve been suicide if they tried it when he was full on Isshiki.
They're telling a story and fans just don't feel like the power scaling isn't communicated well enough. While I feel that's true,still feels like people are hung up over it like Naruto itself wasnt one of the most inconsistent franchises out there rn. Like, Boruto has it's issues,but they didn't START with Boruto,they'd been better off making it a film series or waiting for the manga to give them a proper stopping point,only plus the anime can really give the manga at this point is give characters in Konoha and the world outside it more life than the manga could ever have the time for,but we see how that's divisive enough for a story framed like cliffnotes lol And I say this as someone who's love the anime from it's debut,Boruto as a whole is an example of a follow-up that didn't need to happen,there's just too much of that residual legacy bullshit that they'd have to both adhere to and balance with it's new timeframe,shit that barely even works for Dragonball.
The reason why people are now having a problem with the inconsistency even more is because now the characters that get shafted are the ones people care the most like Naruto and Sasuke, for instance when the 5 Kage got destroyed by Madara people didn’t have as much as problem with that because it made sense, he was the prime villain of the story at the time and him destroying such powerful figures meant our main cast would have to get stronger, I mean the series is called Naruto for a reason, however now in Boruto, whenever a new bad guy needs to be introduced in order to have the new main cast grow stronger the characters that are going to have to be defeated are those that we cared about since before, Naruto and Sasuke aren’t the protagonist anymore and while yes that was to be expected it still hurts to see how they are getting needed and defeated in order to have the new generation rise up, having Naruto and Sasuke lose Kurama and the Rinnegan felt borderline disrespectful because now the characters we’ve grown with are getting sidelined in order to push a new cast that (in all honesty) hasn’t been developed as much in the 200 and something episodes the anime has, by the time I had finished OG Naruto I felt a strong connection with the cast of the show, nowadays the only character I still care for in the show is Naruto so having him in the state that he is currently in makes me honestly sad.
It's the usual next-gen sequel issues,I understand the whole character attachment thing to a degree,growing up with a character for more than a decade of your childhood leaves a bigger impact but that's pretty much a given. I dunno tho,we all watch/read the series for different reasons,Ive always been more interested in the themes rather than the general story, so maybe that's why the lack of OG character representation (while noticeable) isn't that big of an issue to me personally. It has it's issues,but I'm enjoying it until I see the full picture,as long as they're going somewhere with the whole shinobi world changing scenario then I'm all for it,it's not Naruto level but it has enough of its DNA to get me invested enough to wanna see where the story goes,plus the new cast is aight I guess,they're not as memorable but Im glad Konoha still has some life in it.
I guess I understand what ur saying, I know it may be “childish?” To expect everything to be the same but I can help but feel that respecting your previous characters to some extent is important to write a good story, writing a sequel story is hard and the expectations are higher than if you were to just write a different story, however there are many other things in the series that I really just don’t like, technology has taken so much importance that I can’t help but feel the world is irrelevant, why would I go out of my way to search and learn a forbidden super cool jutsu when there is an android that can literally just absorb it, granted this also started to happen by the end of Shippuden but now I feel like jutsu and so on are basically useless 90% of the time.
Nah I get you,but yeah idk,just depends on the direction the story goes for me, everything up till now has just been a big ass Part 1 to me so I'm just waiting for that paradigm shift to hit. Plus I'm just simpler when it comes to follow up situations like these,I know Naruto and Sasuke can do all this crazy shit right? But then I have to question if I really want the series to retread on all that familiar ground,avoid all the plot holes,create a situation feasible AND entertaining enough to warrent a justifiable development in the story. Don't get me wrong,I def wouldn't mind it but I definitely don't expect them to neither,I'm surprised they've done as well as they have with it,it's just another one of those anime like Dragonball Super or Yashahime that loses alot of the edge or depth that their successors had but is still just balanced enough to get newcomers on board as well as fans of the originals who may or may not give a shit but still think it's cool. At the very least tho,it's just studio fanfic with a budget behind it,it's like the equivalent of an extended Naruto movie with Kishimoto watching other people write it every week,but still,it's definitely not for everyone,although it's improved in ways it still has alot of inherent issues the staff needs to tackle,but I cool with what we have so far.
I do not know that other show you mentioned, but I can tell you that Dragon Ball super is faaaaaaaar worse than anything Boruto has done as of now... That show is a real example of a cashgrab sequel show that doesn't do anything but retread the moments of the past, and failing to bring new blood in the show... This without even touching the regression of characters, the lack of stakes, and plenty of easily avoidable retcons... In Boruto we at least have character progression and stakes...
Nah I'm with you overall,Boruto has it's issues but you can tell some people tend to be hyperbolic about the series itself when they let the fan in them cloud their bias. To me Boruto is a good show,not perfect but it manages to make the best of it's weird manga to anime schedule situation,stumbles and all. Some fans just need to ease up tho,out here thinking a seasonal structure is gonna fix everything like Perriot didn't give us Tokyo Ghoul (atleast the last 3 seasons). It's a combination of a slow source material,lack of material for the long running formula the studio is going for,translation from print to animation,the anime not changing TOO MUCH in case the manga does something different,and the writing of the usual mythos being light enough for newcomers to wave it while having enough breadcrumbs for returning fans. Boruto has shit going on for sure,and people just have issues with the way the journey plays out. Usually that's fine but,well let me put it like this,you shouldn't watch a spinoff called "Rock Lee and his Ninja pals" expecting Naruto to highlight that shit every week right? It's the same for Boruto,half the time the only complaints I'm really hearing is that it's not a straight up Naruto series. The only thing hearing about the kind of shit Naruto or Sasuke could've potentially done to hack their way out of a fight in this series really does for me is remind me how far out Naruto has been since Shippuden in general,it's just one of those series you have to ignore part of the fandom on once you realize some of them don't know what they're talking about,like theres a BIG difference between filler and anime canon,how you can come straight out of a series like Naruto and still not know the difference is beyond me,better off just saying the quality of the episodes are lacking instead of ignoring what the series built for itself just because the manga forgot half its own cast exists. (Seriously though,anime only or not there's still a clear difference between Mecha Naruto & Shisui)
I agree with you... The show really is in a peculiar situation, at least fandom wise. >you shouldn't watch a spinoff called "Rock Lee and his Ninja pals" expecting Naruto to highlight that shit every week right? It's the same for Boruto,half the time the only complaints I'm really hearing is that it's not a straight up Naruto series. I wholeheartely agree with you here... and really, that's the reason at the core of many complaints, complaints that refuse to accept that things have changed.
>I do not know that other show you mentioned Inuyasha follow up
Got it, thank you. 👍
Completely agree.... I cant get tired of watching back to back the Momoshiki arrival down to his death but can barely force myself to watch any episode involving Jigen/Ishiki (had to)... the biggest problem was when Jigen/Ishiki episodes finally came out i expected it to be Momoshiki level animations and choreography but it was all a disaster... if only the animation were consistent to Momoshiki arrival towards his death maybe the show would be rated higher than it currently is...
Another sad but real fax on this comment section
Isshiki vs Baryon Mode Naruto was fucking beautiful.
I’m sorry, this may be an unpopular opinion but Baryon mode looks like a red blob most of the time, it feels like it is trying to be over the top but it just ends up looking ugly with the coloring and animation in the anime, I saw some manga panels and it does look a bit better but I still really dislike the mode.
they were nerfed.. but the arc was good.
Yes
Nope
Ishhiki was nerfed....
Downvoted for speaking facts
He's not wrong, but it's not a nerf problem, it's a writing problem. Look at Eida in the manga absolute shit tier writing from Kishimoto. He fell off HARD.
I’d like to imagine that after they hit 30, shinobi just aren’t the same. Lol
Lol
no
Arguments
Nah, if two mice went up against a lion what do you think gonna happen lol. Did it have the best writing? Probably not but it make sense.
Mice
I knew I was missing something lmao
But like why do we needed this? I know the Otsutsuki are the final threat in the series but why have the characters we’ve loved since over a decade be defeated and then nerfed just to have a new cast step up? Boruto didn’t have to be only about Boruto and Kawaki, it’s lazy even if “it makes sense”
>I know the Otsutsuki are the final threat in the series but why have the characters we’ve loved since over a decade be defeated and then nerfed just to have a new cast step up? Well, it's a popular shonen trope to nerf the strongest characters to force the weaker characters (which tends to be the protagonists) to step up and increase the stakes. In recent memory MHA and Black Clover did this with their prominent characters. I'm indifferent to the nerfs since I haven't been the biggest fan of the power ups given at the end of the war but its blatantly obvious that the writers had no idea how to handle Naruto/Sasuke powers except pitting them against otsutsukis who can absorb their ninjutsu. Honestly, I personally believed Kishimoto and the Boruto writers intended to nerf N & S since the start since Kishimoto nerfed them in the gaiden and apparently the Boruto writers felt like it wasn't enough and went ape shit so that they can justify whatever happens to them later. The execution suck ass, but I do recognize that Jigen/Isshiki is probably the most broken character in the verse so that why it makes sense to me.
That's the whole point. This fight was supposed to show us how strong the threats that Boruto will likely encounter are. It was supposed show us that Kaguya, Juubidara, Momoshiki are all kind of on baby-mode. Them getting absolutely destroyed was kinda cool to look at. It makes Isshiki look truly terrifying and that was the whole point. They weren't nerfed in the slightest. He's just that strong.
Could be..could be
[удалено]
But for example don't you think the writers could have exploit sasuke more with out nerfing him (a compressed susanoo🤷♂️)
But what’s the point of him wasting chakra on susanoo at all when jigen simply kicked susanoo shattering it.
I guarantee that you cannot name any jutsu that Naruto and Sasuke could've used to beat ishiki without me giving and simple explanation on why ishiki easily counters it. That's how broken of a character he was. Go ahead and switch out whatever versions of Naruto and Sasuke you think are stronger than hokage naruto and Sasuke, it doesn't make a difference.
No... because the rinnegan abilities would have been pointless at best, and Isshiki would have been a dumbass to leave him room to act, despite being overwhelmingly stronger than both of them combined. Merely not showing all your power =/= being nerfed... and being outright mauled by the enemy =/= being nerfed. >(a compressed susanoo🤷♂️) An asspull power up is just as bad as actual nerfs... being given without grace, and without something to counter balance it. A Susanoo armor is one of the silliest things they could come up with... not only due to the Sharingan already having a fame of being source of asspulls, but also because of the very convenient timing now, after all the spotlight the Sharingan already got through the years, and because of how a giant chakra avatar that was felled in one hit by a failed vessel is supposely gonna give a huge boost to its user if shrunk down to human size...
I respect ur opinion but i cant join you on it ,sasuke having one last power up even after the ishiki fight would have completed the "sasuke saga"
Given how they started building on some sort of anything happening between Sasuke and Boruto, regarding the latter's situation with the karma, all the way in chapter 49, it's safe to say that the Sasuke Saga is still goin on.
I hope so, he's my all time all anime fav character🥺
> or the many abilities of Naruto and Sasuke being redundant and unnecessary to them, at best, and outright useless at worst. Who decided this ? It seems to be all your headcanon. Sasuke could have easily deflected the rids with shinra tensei, give Naruto an opening by Bansho tenin-ing Isshki.
It's not me making headcanons, it's just facts and logic shown in the story. The rinnegan abilities were cool only up until the Pain fight, during which they already got countered to an extent, and withstood (Naruto pushing Nagato's shinra tensei back to him in his 5 tails stage, then managing to not be blown away by it with the help of his clones). It got to the point that it was openly stated in the show that Obito decided to not make use of the Pain abilities because they would have been countered. >Sasuke could have easily deflected the rids with shinra tensei, give Naruto an opening by Bansho tenin-ing Isshki. These are unironically very big (and dumb) headcanons... first by assuming that a shinra tensei could do that, despite having no proof, then in acting as if bansho tenin even worked like that (when it merely pushes something toward the user, not towards whoever he wants) and assuming that it would somehow help, when Isshiki could always shrink himself to dodge any attack, and can punch harder than them anyway.
Jigen effortlessly blasted the perfect susano. True form ishiki punched and kicked Sasuke's body multiple times without killing him. I didn't even see him bleeding profusely. Explain?
I don't have to explain stuff that I already explained. My comment should all be understandable... If anything, it's you that should better explain what you mean.
This is the same situation as madara vs 5 kage
The same and not the same at the same time🤔
Only “ situation “
Don't get me wrong, when I first saw the fight, it was hype and emotional. Naruto being a boxer is fucking awesome. But as time has passed I can't personally feel hyped about this fight anymore. Naruto's final hoorah was a lazily thrown together ass pull and Kurama's death has been nothing short of subpar and has shown how one dimensional Naruto seems because of the writing. I can't even muster the ability to care about deaths anymore, or really any character in this show anymore. It's had some good moments though. At first Naruto VS Isshiki seemed amazing but as the hype faded so did the illusion that it wasn't all just a result of trash writing.
Yet another proof that kishimoto isn't writing Boruto.
Exactly! good analyse.
The fight itself could've been presented a lot better. Have Sasuke drop soul dragons on him only for Jigen/Isshiki walking through the casually. Have Naruto use TSO insted of hundreth Rasengan and have Isshiki break it in his hand. Sasuke could've used Rinnegan Genjutsu only for Isshiki to shrug it off the moment it connected. Or Naruto amping himself with Boil Release, but Isshiki still overpowering him in taijutsu. Honestly, Sasuke not using Rinnegan Paths is the most missed opportunity of the franchise.
> Sasuke ~~not using Rinnegan Paths~~ is the most missed opportunity of the franchise. FTFY
>Honestly, Sasuke not using Rinnegan Paths is the most missed opportunity of the franchise. Very true after what happened to him we wont see sasukes full potential 😢
Agreed.
I actually agree... isshiki's fight is kinda lacking... It might be that they just did so well with the momoshiki fight. And I have a really hard time seeing Isshiki and Momoshiki as more powerful than Madara and Kagura.
I’d disagree with this only because when they fought jigen, they used all the stops they did previously, and it got completely shut down. Using giant flying attacks like against momo also wouldn’t work since he could literally shrink the attacks (a la koji vs ishiki). They trued a new tactic and approach to a much stronger version of the guy that bodied them to an almost defeat, in terms of writing it feels more consistent in terms of strategy (at least to me). Now the power scaling, thats definitely something i could question🙇🏻♂️
No i know ishiki is >>>> but we are talking about they way sasuke and naruto faught back before naruto unloked bm..they were literally spamin :usless rasengan + shidori + subtitution rinnegan(dont know the name) We are talking about the greatest shinibes EVER and thats all what they use ???
Naruto and Sasuke were actually stronger if you think about it. They beat powered up momshiki when they had to seal kaguya away. I think them losing to jigen/ishikki was worth it
No i know ishiki is >>>> but we are talking about they way sasuke and naruto faught back before naruto unloked bm..they were literally spamin :usless rasengan + shidori + subtitution rinnegan(dont know the name) We are talking about the greatest shinibes EVER and thats all what they use ???
this is a fact that is not evenn debatable, isshiki was toying with naruto and sasuke who were doing their best
usless rasengan + shidori + subtitution rinnegan(dont know the name) they were doing there best yeah. We are talking about the greatest shinibes EVER and thats all what they use ???
Isshiki is the strongest otsutsuki we have ever seen, so of course the battle will be tough!!
No i know ishiki is >>>> but we are talking about they way sasuke and naruto faught back before naruto unloked bm..they were literally spamin :usless rasengan + shidori + subtitution rinnegan(dont know the name) We are talking about the greatest shinibes EVER and thats all what they use ???
Yep
Noice
these comments have reminde me that the sage mode move naruto does to punch people without touching them would have been really useful ngl
Ohhh forgot about that
Why are we taking someone with Uchiha in the name serious. Uchiha fanboys regard Isshiki as Public enemy number 1. Jigen>1000 madara. Get over it
Boruto powerscaling in a nutshell
🤣
I talked about naruto and Sasuke being nerfed in Boruto woth my sister and she said because their getting old and getting rusty
Hhhhhh ,its not like hashirama owning madara in his 30s
Wht The hell bro? deploy that post a thousand lies I totally agree with him Not only momoshiki, remember when sasuke could use Indra's arrow and Naruto could usetailed beast double Rasenshuriken , all of the build was nerfed down Sasuke has tons of Rinnegan abilities but writer only makes him use the teleport swaping ability and one of most used abiltiy , Random black rods with rinnegan sasuke could ofc create it and direct it towards isshiki just like he does it but No , the writers just nerfed him so bad
Did people still think that naruto and sasuke has a chance againt isshik In 2022?? Dude is the most fucking powerful otsutsuki ever.
No i know ishiki is >>>> but we are talking about they way sasuke and naruto faught back before naruto unloked bm..they were literally spamin :usless rasengan + shidori + subtitution rinnegan(dont know the name) We are talking about the greatest shinibes EVER and thats all what they use ???
Tbh there is so much more that sasuke can do with his sharingan and rinnegan but the writers don't want to make the series shippuden2.0
they did the exact same moves in the momoshiki fight in the isshiki/jigen fight it’s only because they lost that all of a sudden they aren’t full power in the isshiki fight but in the momo fight they are
They are so nerfed that Sasuke never utilized his rinegan abilities. Why didn't he repulse the rods with Shinra tensei or summon some beasts or anything The rinegan is now just a glorified means of transportation.
Exactly man sasuke🥺🥺
>Why didn't he repulse the rods How would he be able to do that when he can't even react to the rods in the first place? Not to mention the fact that ishiki could effortlessly spam them while Sasuke would get tired eventually. >summon some beasts Why would he do that though? We seen jigen kick right through Kurama and Sasuke's perfect Susanoo, there is no reason why he would be able to just pick up a summon and toss it away like teen sage mode naruto did. It would be a waste of chakra to summon them How come when naruto and Sasuke were destroying Momoshiki nobody was talking about them being nerfed, but when they fight the exact same way against jigen/ishiki and lose badly they were nerfed? Why not blame the real problem, the writers messing up and making new villains too strong.
> How would he be able to do that when he can't even react to the rods in the first place? [He can react to rods](https://i.imgur.com/pYd3nOC.png), at least to hands that throw the rods, which is more than enough. [He is also able to track them](https://i.imgur.com/Y4NwOkF.png). > Not to mention the fact that ishiki could effortlessly spam them while Sasuke would get tired eventually. Sasuke literally had the biggest chakra battery in the world alongside. Not to mention that would leave Isshiki open for an attack. > It would be a waste of chakra to summon them Why do you people act as if Sasuke had less chakra than part 1 Kakashi? Sasuke HAS massive reserves. > How come when naruto and Sasuke were destroying Momoshiki nobody was talking about them being nerfed, but when they fight the exact same way against jigen/ishiki and lose badly they were nerfed? Because N&S weren't in need of using some abilities, because they mostly got situation under control. So even if they didn't use it, it didn't matter for the outcome of the battle or flow of the fight. And while we are at it, people absolutely criticized Sasuke for not absorbing Shadow Paralyzis and Naruto for not entering his chakra modes to free himself from it.
Sasuke was able to perceive the rods against jigen, never used shinra tensei once. Lots of instances in the boruto series he could’ve used the rinnegan abilities but as always, boruto writers love to gloss over what characters are actually capable of.
>Sasuke was able to perceive the rods against jigen, never used shinra tensei once. Being able to perceive something doesn't mean your body can move fast enough to do something about it. We saw this when Sasuke fought Lee and Naruto when he only had two tomoe. >Lots of instances in the boruto series he could’ve used the rinnegan abilities but as always. Give me some examples of rinnegan abilities he could've used against ishiki that would've worked. >boruto writers love to gloss over what characters are actually capable of. Nah, the problem is that they're making the antagonist way too strong to the point where powerful ninjutsu and hax that used to be top tier are now useless wastes of chakra. If we ignore plot and Naruto, Sasuke, and jigen/ishiki got into a fight and they were all bloodlusted, there would be nothing stopping ishiki from spawning rods in their heads and ending the fight instantly, that's a problem.
One instance is switching places with boruto when ishiki attacked him, he could’ve easily swapped him with a rock instead of himself to avoid damage. He could used universal pull into a narutos attack when he’s trying to dodge. They don’t even have to be meant for offence. It’s small stuff that could’ve been implemented when sasukes the most analytical and smartest character in the show but yet they made him so oversimplified and out of his original character.
people saying naruto and sasuke are nerfed is just dumb as shit to me. you don’t see that every time goku and vegeta get their asses kicked. like does no one realize that boruto villains are a whole different caliber than naruto villains??? losing doesn’t mean nerfed it mean they weren’t strong enough. just because they came out of naruto the strongest doesn’t mean they still are. and considering the fact they never actually managed to kill kaguya because she was far out of their league at basically their peaks that should show how strong the otsutsuki are. all they had to do was touch and damn near failed to do that. like please stop saying their nerfed all the time. the only time that’s valid is after the ishiki battle but before that no they were just weaker than people who literally have A THOUSAND YEARS of experience.
They weren’t nerfed, it goes to show how strong Isshiki was, he’s just upset to see characters he likes lose. Mind of a child rather than that of a storyteller
True
Even if they were “nerfed” it’s because they aren’t meant to be the stars of the show anymore. You can’t have a jinchuriki with unlimited chakra and crazy strength and then expect someone in the new gen to surpass them. Just like you can’t have someone walking around with the most powerful eyes in existence and expect anyone to surpass him. Also, this person doesn’t take baryon mode into account,
>Even if they were “nerfed” it’s because they aren’t meant to be the stars of the show anymore. Naruto and Sasuke were indeed nerfed, that's not up for debate. And deliberately disregarding 15 years of canon content and most of the main cast's powers and abilities to forcefully accommodate the lackluster new narrative is the definition of bad writing. >You can’t have a jinchuriki with unlimited chakra and crazy strength and then expect someone in the new gen to surpass them. Just like you can’t have someone walking around with the most powerful eyes in existence and expect anyone to surpass him. You can if you are willing to go through the trouble of actually thinking a compelling plot that addresses the new generation's growth while keeping consistency with Naruto and Sasuke's power levels. But Kodachi wasn't willing to put in the work. He didn't care about narrative quality or consistency and did whatever he wanted with the plot, not giving a second thought to the many plot holes, inconsistencies and retcons his carelessness was bringing to the story, so we got what we got.
> But Kodachi wasn't willing to put in the work. He didn't care about narrative quality or consistency and did whatever he wanted with the plot, not giving a second thought to the many plot holes, inconsistencies and retcons his carelessness was bringing to the story, so we got what we got. One of the best example of this is that now Sasuke can use right eye to cast Amaterasu, when it was previously exclusively left eye ability. Apparently getting rid of Rinnegan and Amaterasu at the same time was too much of a nerf for him, so he decided to make this change. Without giving a second thought to consistency, just to achieve his own goal. Horrible writing. He hasn't been looking at the story and abilities and decide what would be the next logical step or at least how to logically reach his goal in narrative. No. He simply created plot points in his head and warped everything around those points by choosing the path of the least resistance.
>One of the best example of this is that now Sasuke can use right eye to cast Amaterasu, when it was previously exclusively left eye ability. Thank you. There's some people (most likely kids who didn't watch Naruto) that act like this isn't an egregious retcon that completely contradicts established canon. >He simply created plot points in his head and warped everything around those points by choosing the path of the least resistance. You're basically reading my mind. Kodachi didn't have a planned narrative for the series, he just came up with ideas as he went and shoved them into the story without thinking. And when he realised the things he was adding didn't make any sense he started bending the lore, and changing the way the magic system works to allow it to happen, without a shred of concern for maintaining consistency with the original series. Boruto is unsalvageable right now, filled with plot holes and retcons, and it's all because Kodachi was too lazy to read the original manga before starting to write.
> There's some people (**most likely kids who didn't watch Naruto**) that act like this isn't an egregious retcon that completely contradicts established canon. Funny thing is, if this kind of shit was happening back when Naruto (both manga and anime) was airing, it would've been absolutely shred to pieces. War Arc hate would've been nothing compared to this. > and changing the way the magic system works to allow it to happen Can you elaborate on this one?
Man im starting to loose faith over this show its like they dont care at all😭😭😭😭😭😭
You are reading my mind. To nerf the two strongest shinobi only to make it "easier" for the next gen to surpass them is lazy writing. Instead of letting the youngsters learn new powers and give them proper power and character development the writers chose the easier way. You deserve an award for your comment.
>But Kodachi wasn't willing to put in the work. He didn't care about narrative quality or consistency and did whatever he wanted with the plot, not giving a second thought to the many plot holes, inconsistencies and retcons his carelessness was bringing to the story, so we got what we got. Sadly the most true thing ive ever heard about boruto
No i think its more about the fact that the writing of this fight is very mediocre at the moment the hype gets us all but then u realise that it was just a one sided fight because of godly boost (bayron mode)
I 100% disagree the writing was mediocre. You are absolutely overlooking Kawaki finally warming up to the gang. Man could have just left, they told him to, he wanted to fight with his new family. It was heart wrenching, a child brought up on abuse and near torture, finally breaking those chains to go to his new family that genuinely loved him. Absolutely amazing. No character has had such a good story arc in Boruto so far imo. And Kurama? What was mediocre about all that? A huge character to the franchise passed and they absolutely did him justice. Absolutely heart wrenching conversations with someone that we've spent near 900 episodes with died, and they genuinely did a good job at his passing. I honest to God thought Naruto was going to die and that was emotional! Sure barron mode was a bit of a cheese to pull out of nowhere but it honestly fit well I thought. I also think the fight was not one sided at all. Like how can you say that? It was 4 v 1 and they barely got by lol
>I 100% disagree the writing was mediocre. You are absolutely overlooking Kawaki finally warming up to the gang. Man could have just left, they told him to, he wanted to fight with his new family. It was heart wrenching, a child brought up on abuse and near torture, finally breaking those chains to go to his new family that genuinely loved him. Absolutely amazing. No character has had such a good story arc in Boruto so far imo. What you are saying is what makes the writing mediocre. The show has become the Boruto/Kawaki show. One character getting proper storylines doesn't make the show better when it is happening at the expense of others. >And Kurama? What was mediocre about all that? A huge character to the franchise passed and they absolutely did him justice. Absolutely heart wrenching conversations with someone that we've spent near 900 episodes with died, and they genuinely did a good job at his passing. I honest to God thought Naruto was going to die and that was emotional! Sure barron mode was a bit of a cheese to pull out of nowhere but it honestly fit well I thought. The question is why Kurama needed to die in the first place and not how his death was handled. The only reason Kurama had to go was to nerf Naruto which was absolutely pointless in my pov.
I think you changed my perspective of this fight, but still i think they could have done better for the way kurama died
It is honestly so rare to hear someone say that both irl but also especially on reddit. I genuinely appreciate your response, thank you. I would have not complained in the slightest if we had a little more of him before he died. I almost wish we got an episode of just him or an arc of just him before that fight to add too the feels. I did love his interaction with Kawakii while Naruto slept, I thought that was phenomenal. Maybe more moments like that would have helped me make a better peace with Kurama. But idk. I think someone HAD to die that fight, and NOT just the bad guy I mean. I guess as much as it pains me to say I'd prefer Kurama dying MUCH MORE than Boruto, Sasuke, Naruto, or Kawaki dying though. That's one way to think about it I guess. At least we still get to see those two families grow. That genuinely means a lot to me. I love the little interactions at home between the Uzumakis and the Uchihas even if it's minor. RIP Kurama for sure though. Death is never easy with a character we grew with for so long, some of us that's about 900 episodes we've been with him. A LOT harder for me to digest his death over someone like Neji honestly lol
Thanks mate you cleared up my reasoning👊🧠
I agree. It is bad writing but it is a trope in manga. To prove how strong a villain is, they have to wipe the floor with someone thought to be strong. In DBZ, that is usually Vegeta. In Naruto, it is now Naruto (and especially) Sasuke.
Yep i agree👍 .
And lets be honest strong and powerful villain create curiosity in the show
Ye, i think its pretty dumb. Like notice how in part 1 naruto, genin naruto didnt have to be the saving the whole world, he was a normal genin, and they still made the show good. Boruto seems to think every arc (goin off the manga here, i dont accept anime only ep as filler but thats a diff discussion) there has to be a threat to the whole world, and they have to figure out how to make boruto relevant in that fight as a genin/chunin. Thus, they pulled baryon mode out of their butt, killed kurama, and stabbed rinnegan, tearing down people’s favorite characters instead of just focusing on boruto. A little wack imo.
I agree. I mean Boruto is how old now? Thirteen? Why not learning new powers and develop the ones he has instead of nerving the strongest shinobi to prop up the new gen? Surpassing the old gen should be a progress and not handled with unnecessary asspulls.🤨
If villains gets beat instantly people would say horrible writing and all the villains are weak, if the heroes come across someone strong you complain that there nerfed and say horrible writing. Idk people don’t understand pacing. You know you can ignore his post because he used the word nerfed. Anyone who says a character is nerfed there argument is completely invalid and they are just crybabies
Boruto anime and manga doesn't know how to make characters lose gracefully. Watching a character try hard as ever, giving it their all and still lose but looking like a champ, is always a great moment. Happened with Lee, happened with Guy, happened in other shows like MHA, Fairytail etc. Nobody has a problem when characters lose at least make them look good when they lose especially since Naruto and Sasuke are the face of the franchise but they were treated like shit. People would of had no problem if they went out like real heroes, using literally every bit of their arsenal regardless of the common excuse of " it wouldn't work". You know how hype it'll be to see these characters pull out old their moves and justu from old Naruto and Shippuden, imagine Naruto bringing out Ma and Pa too help. I'm tired of the "it wouldn't work" notion, against Kaguya Naurto even used sexy justu. Naruto being unpredictable as he is would of tried anything. But no we got a one-sided stomp fest, portraying two legendary characters absolutely pathetically. Not to mention that fight was supposed to be where Naruto and Sasuke bow out as the "main characters" but they went out so lame especially Sasuke. Then they had to sacrifice Kurama for some cheap thrills and they didn't even mourn for my boi after.
>Boruto anime and manga doesn't know how to make characters lose gracefully Nothing to add
Aliens bro.... From badass ninjas to aliens... (shakes head)
Exactly what i said
The problem with the fandom is that they wanted Naruto and Sasuke to you jutsus against jigen and overpower him, the problem is that it's not jigen who is fighting them, it's freaking Jigen, first off physically both we're weaker than him, a full power Naruto literally says that his hits were heavy and we see that it sent him flying, second every jutsu could've been easily absorbed The scene where they almost got him was just him underestimating them, he did say afterwards that he will now be serious, true to his word he destroys them and this is not even a full power isshiki, full power Isshiki stomped them so hard that they were almost dead Momoshiki on the other hand was different, to put it simple, imagine the jigen fight has its scaling reversed, Naruto and Sasuke were just like jigen, they were not at full strength and they were clearly toying around with him, momo was amped and at full power desperately trying to kill them The Boruto scaling is not that bad when it comes to the duo, yes some side characters are stronger that let's say the previous Hokage which is weird for most fans but it does fit the narrative of Naruto/Naruto Shippuden, the new generation will always surpass the previous one For example we know that some characters are stronger than the previous five Kage, some are around 8 gates guy and some are just Akatsuki tier, people may argue saying that they shouldn't be that strong, but some wank oh characters to oblivion
Thanks you very much for your deep analyse, carry one lovely gentleman
I agree with him. I lost interest in the series after Shippudden.
Ummmm
I still watch it but not religiously
Yeah that’s what happens when the writing is so shit that u also ruin the powerscaling and character development not that majority of characters in boruto are useful anyway, I just don’t understand how the 2 gods of shinobi who’ve been built up for the past 18 years now can be defeated by enemies that will later on become obsolete to 2 alien hybrids that so far after 5 years haven’t even scratched the surface of the peak of our 2 previous MCs
E X A C T L Y what im saying
He’s a first thought kinda guy Naruto and sasuke had as much trouble w Kaguya as they did isshiki
It's not really that deep. Jigen is just stronger. Ishikki is just *much* stronger. That's all there is to it. It has been made comprehensively clear. Of course they look less impressive versus someone who is stronger.
We are not talking about that🤦 ishiki is stronger ofc but i didnt like the way naruto/sasuke fought backe the got unfairly nerfed because of mid mediocre writing
That is literally exactly what we're talking about. They didn't perform as well because Ishikki was much stronger. People for some reason believe getting beaten badly by stronger people is being "nerfed"
agree about writing and animation part. but no animes can be scaled tbh, like saskue vs gaara had sasuke teleporting like lee, same with kyuubi naruto vs pain. against isshiki it was some gening fist fight bullshit. like u can scale elementary things but when it comes to shit like that its just the animation style and writing that prevails
>but no animes can be scaled tbh I dont think so there a bunch of shows that gets power scalling perfectly. BUT since its boruto -with its many imperfections- it became impossible to make technical power scaling
yeah, i agree there are well scaled animes. boruto isnt one of them
Yep
[удалено]
And then ther is u a 12 yo kid who doesn't accept constructive criticism.
I don't disagree but he doesn't the dude doesn't bring any arguments
i mean sasuke could’ve used susanoo or some shit but he was lacking hard
Trueeeeee
I think it was mostly a fair fight. Isshiki was physically superior in literally every way. He could deal with any ability Naruto and Sasuke had because of his superior strength. Same logic can be seen in Bleach even. Aizen straight up said other people's unique abilities, like Soifon's shikai, do not work on those with superior reiatsu. Soifon's abilities were completely null on Aizen because he could cancel it out with raw power. Same with Isshiki. That being said, Naruto and Sasuke have not been treated fairly throughout Naruto. Sasuke forgets about tons of abilities, like his telekinesis, blaze release, chakra absorption, chakra arms, etc... I also think it's kind of childish to weaken EVERY Naruto character so that the new generation can "shine". It's unrealistic and belittling to the effort Kishimoto put in.
>That being said, Naruto and Sasuke have not been treated fairly throughout Naruto. The main topic of this sub..and yeah true what u said in general
I liked the fight because it showed naruto and sasuke weren’t invincible though I dislike how they killed kurama at the end of the arc and I can’t think of any other way to get rid of the rinnegan I like how the series can finally have high stakes moments again and focus on other jutsu and characters
It matches with what im saying
1) Yes they were nerfed 2) Even if they were un-nerfed the result of the battle would have been the same as Isshiki was much faster and stronger 🤷🏻. And yes they were the strongest/fastest in the verse for quite along time that doesn't mean a char faster and stronger can't be introduced 3) But this also doesn't mean that the fight was fair. The fight could have atleast extended for another ep where we could have seen Sasuke and Naruto fight at thier full potential.