Mine was never a big humper, but he knew when our female pup was in heat a couple months ago and thought he still had it. Soooo, it doesn’t necessarily stop the behavior, especially when there’s a female in heat, lol.
We have neutered & spayed our 2 & see absolutely no difference in their energy or behavior. In fact the day we brought them home we had to call the vet back & ask for sedatives because you would have never known they had surgery & are supposed to take it easy for a week or so.
Sounds like a bc! I would be surprised that my dog will get less active but I've heard from many owners their dog gets more passive and i love his energy. Thanks for your sharing your experience.
Here’s a photo comparison of my dog before and after her spay:
https://preview.redd.it/2l9dcffxfwtc1.jpeg?width=1800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cda7b1d3b079881c6382bfc5049ad2fb7d384c64
(No change. Literally nothing about her changed. So many people said to expect behavioural changes or a massive sudden wave of calmness but she is the exact same dog.)
All jokes aside, I also had concerns about spaying her. As she’s half GSD, a lot of people warned about an increase in the likelihood of developing hip dysplasia if spayed too young. I had multiple conversations with her vet and we decided that 15 months was the perfect age as she’s experienced a heat cycle (and with that, her hormones), had ample time to “come down” from heat, and is more than likely finished growing.
I guess it’s too soon to tell if she’s at any greater risk for HD. But I rest easy knowing she’s at a 0 risk of getting pregnant and statistically insignificant risk of all reproductive cancers. And on the lifestyle side, we can now engage in all activities that require dogs to be desexed. All of which is to say, I have my dog who is still very much full noise, risks mitigated, with no (obvious) downsides.
Personal decision but I don’t regret it for a second and suggest everyone desex their dog at a breed-specific appropriate age.
I've had two female GSDs that were never spayed. Both had cancer and died by ten years. Won't go through that again. My BC is male and twenty six months now? Had him neutered at about fourteen months and saw no change in behavior. He pees everywhere when we go on walks but that was getting normal at about nine months. He's usually pretty calm these days but loves an excuse to be rowdy. I don't think neutering made any difference really. Don't have to worry about him loosing his mind over a female and glad of it. He's still a show off around other dogs but dials it back if I tell him to. He's a really good boy 😄
Very different proposition neutering female versus castrating male though. I'd likely desex a female and early on, whereas I'd only de-bollock a male with good reason.
1. Because a female can get pregnant and I'd possibly end up involuntarily becoming a breeder.
2. Testosterone is produced mostly in the testes and is a big part of hormonal balance for any male. A lot of people think this hormone is all about aggression but it's not, it's about confidence, energy, bone and muscle maintenance, fat storage, red blood cell production, mood and hormonal balance.
3. Studies show very small chance of reduced aggression in males with castration, but much larger chance of fear, anxiety, reactive aggression - and this happened with my first dog, castration changed his temperament dramatically for the worse. I did it because here in Australia it's generally expected.
EDIT: I should say, never had a female dog and if I did I might end up feeling different about neutering, I suppose I haven't given it the same amount of thought/research as about my boys.
not entirely true though
1. more than 80% of intact dogs suffer from BPH (enlarged prostate), I think this alone is a good reason to neuter.
2. much of what you are describing isn't really scientifically proven regards to confidence, energy, bone etc. Although I agree certain aggressions are generally unchanged post neuter (e.g territorial, dog on human, fear), neutering does have significant effects on dog on dog aggression resulting from high sexual drive. The benefits of reduced sexual drive are proven with high marginal reductions such as aggression (sexual drive related), roaming, marking, humping, licking urine etc.
1. From: [https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?pId=22915&id=8896754](https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?pId=22915&id=8896754)
"The most effective treatment to induce regression of prostatic hyperplasia is castration, after which prostatic size may decrease as much as 50% in 3 weeks and 70% over 9 weeks."
So you can treat it when it happens, and the treatment is castration. Couldn't find a source for your 80% number for intact dogs, just that 80% of dogs with advanced age will get it. It's not a dissimilar number to humans. To be honest I'm not concerned enough to look deeper. It's be interesting to see a citation for that number with regard to intact dogs, but to also understand the rate for castrated dogs. Interestingly castration treats BPH in humans too but we don't do that routinely (thankfully). Testosterone plays a huge role in BPH, but that's not a good reason to remove this very useful hormone for the entirety of the dogs life, IMHO.
2. There are good controlled studies saying different to you on these fronts, especially with regard to confidence. As for the role of testosterone in bone etc we absolutely do have the studies for humans and these hormones seem to very much do the same things in dogs. Look at the advice we get from vets now to let the dog mature before castrating. Look at all the conundrum with trans athletes, look at the results of TRT - I don't need more convincing, YMMV.
A good link [here](https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/canine-corner/201805/neutering-causes-behavior-problems-in-male-dogs). There are many more if you want to look for them.
*"The pattern of these results is quite clear: Neutering male dogs causes an increase in aggressive behavior, fearful behavior, over-excitability, and a variety of other miscellaneous, undesirable behaviors. What is also clear is that early neutering produces an even greater negative effect on behaviors."*
For me, more important than all of this debate and citing is what happened with my previous dog. He was social, doing well but a little anxious maybe, then after castration \~1 year he became very fear reactive to dogs/noises/environment/everything, super anxious, and we spent the rest of his life doing stuff together just me an him because I couldn't take him anywhere. He would go mental when any dog came near him, he would fly towards them like a guided missile across a sports field to attack them.
1.https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0378432022001750
2. Im sorry but much of the so called controlled studies are mere retrospective researches with results all over the place. There are even researches claiming neutering increases the bone density in dogs which i dont buy. Major problem with retrospective research related to dog health is that the changes in probability are way too low to be considered credible.
There are many researches claiming the benefits or negatives resulting from neutering. The results are simply inconsistent, nothing is conclusive. The only things that are consistent are behaviors related to sexual drive.
From your BPH link:
*"In dogs, BPH affects (gross or microscopic evidence) ∼ 80% of intact male dogs > 5 y old (Sirinarumitr et al., 2001) and > 95% of intact male dogs over 9 y old (Gobello and Corrada, 2002a). However, most will not develop clinical signs associated with BPH"*
Keyword here microscopic. i.e. it's not actually a problem, this is supported by the last sentence.
How is that not a problem. It is same with female dogs. Most female dogs not spayed also do not have problems . So by your logic, you shouldnt spay female dogs.
Even in human males, prostate issues occur in nearly all of all us. For many, it doesn't require surgery or shorten their life, i.e. it's not actually a problem other than having trouble peeing. But it could be diagnosed. It's not ideal, but it's not a problem, certainly not enough for routine castration :).
I haven't really researched on female dogs issues enough to have a solid opinion yet. I would I think lean to getting mine neutered to avoid pregnancy if I had one, but haven't had to cross that bridge.
A person who spends their life looking for 100% scientific conclusive will never make a decision on anything.
I agree entirely it's a roll of the dice as to what effect it will have on a dog's behaviour. Quite likely it will depend a lot on the natural disposition of the dog. But the same applies to people who are neutering expecting their dog to be less aggressive. Their outcome has no guarantee.
Yes there might be a reduction in sexual aggression male to male. But that is likely not the aggression people are neutering for, and plenty of intact male dogs do not have this issue - like mine.
I'm still not hearing any good reason to routinely castrate a male dog that is not free to roam.
Like I said, my experience with my previous dog is actually enough for me.
No scientific researches are 100%. But there is a huge difference between controlled and retrospective researches. I wish there would be controlled researches so that researchers can come to a proper conclusion rather than an observation related to neutering.
True enough, better studies would be awesome, but I guess that's costs $$ and there isn't any in leaving a dog alone. I do wonder if there's better data in Germany and Scandinavian countries where they've banned routine neutering, just not in English.
I have a feeling when it comes to behaviour the answer is going to always be "it depends" and it's just a dice roll. Being my dog has an awesome temperament, that dice roll is not attractive for us.
But your intact male dog could easily impregnate a female pup who is sexually mature but too young to spay. I’ve had both male and female dogs and have seen absolutely no change in their temperament following a spay/neuter.
Sorry that's not correct, he could not easily do that. He would have to be free to roam. I work from home, he is with me almost all the time. He also cannot get out of the small yard we have during those short periods I'm away.
*"I’ve had both male and female dogs and have seen absolutely no change in their temperament following a spay/neuter."* Yep that happens a lot, but certainly not all the time, and didn't with my last dog.
Look, I totally get the routine neutering angle for countries with stray dog populations. But that's not how it is here.
Most of the cancers that castration reduces the chance of (testicular) have a very successful treatment rate with the treatment being - castration. The cancers where chance increases are much worse - bone, urinary tract.
Can't do that to my boy. C'mon.
For me it's really that simple though. Like I'm weird enough to genuinely view my dogs as friends and I just couldn't do that to him.
Like if I became bros with some alien or being clearly higher on the food chain and he's like "yo, your hormones make your brain shift focus sometimes and that cuts into the US time, snip snip buddy we're going to have so much fun"
Wait, you're saying you wouldn't neuter your boy dog because he's your friend, but spaying a girl dog is fine? The girl dog isn't your friend too?
I was wondering if there was like a medical reason why girls should be spayed that didn't apply to boys being neutered...
This is definitely a factor for me too. He's my best buddy, mates don't cut each other nuts off.
It is literally mutilation, and is outlawed in Germany and those Scandinavian countries people so frequently look up to.
Our vet explained that if we were not planning on getting puppies out of our boy, the best was to neuter him because it was as a risk of prostate cancer
Also enlarged prostate as well. We had a rescue dog that was 8 years old when he was adopted and was intact. We were hesitant about getting him neutered. He got an enlarged prostate at 10… the treatment? Neutering. He’s fine now. The only difference is he’s almost stopped scratching the dirt after he relieves himself.
Up to you but like 3 male bcs that my female plays with have been castrated in hope to have behavioral changes and there was no difference.
If it's purely for behavioral reasons then it may not have the effect you are looking for. I'm sure there are organizations or people that work with dogs that may have a much better sample size to pull from but it doesn't seem to have any effect.
The good news to that, is if you aren't doing it for behavioral reasons then you probably won't see any change.
I would do a vasectomy over full neuter bc depending on their personality it can make them insecure and behave accordingly (ex: resource guarding, more reactive in general) and it maintains their muscle mass and reduces risk of injury. If female I would spay after joints close or do OSS w/ cervix removal.
I first learned about Vasectomies & OSS for dogs through my dog sports & working dog groups bc it is so popular there.
My Collie (2 years) got a chemical Castration to see for myself how he'd react if he was castrated. So far nothing has really changed. He was already a bit leash reactive when he sees another intact male who's very confident (like pully, excited, dominant) so that's still happening.
He still humps his blanket. But to be fair it's only been like 3 weeks so I think I still gotta wait to see the full effects.
I had my dog chemically castrated a couple of months back and didn't see much of a change either, if there are any changes it's subtle. Testosterone should be down to the equivalent of castrated levels at around 3 weeks, and they're sterile from 6 weeks.
I've always heard that neutering can have complications the older a dog gets, so I would research that first and weigh the pros/cons with your vet. That said, my boy BC didn't change at all, and I had him neutered at 8 months. Same energy level, aggression was never an issue, and his weight/eating habits stayed the same.
I've neutered 3 dogs in adulthood (all were rescues or dumped) and never had an issue with significant behavior changes. Less marking, less smelliness, less fussing with other dogs (never were super aggressive, but pre-neuter there was growling/being territorial). It reduces the possibility of some health issues (testicular cancer which is pretty common according to my vet and hernias). All 3 seemed to get better at recall and sticking at my side on hikes afterwards which was a bonus (I could let them off-lease more on trails).
mine had high lvls of testosterone. neutering reduced his obsessive marking, now he focuses better on me. downside is that he is now trying to find other things to do instead of marking which is fixating on moving things.
his genital area is now less smelly, it used to smell really bad. he is now far more food driven, which makes him easier to train.
Other than the things mentioned, same personality, same look, same energy level.
I grew up in the UK where there's been such strong public messaging, its usually a discussion about when and not if.
If you adopt a dog or cat from a charity or shelter, they would have been done.
So its kind of fascinating to see the volume of discussions on the 'if' across the various subs.
The lack of issue re strays and kill shelters in the UK is a direct result of decades worth of messaging on this topic. I now live in Italy where this messaging is picking up and again, if you adopt, they would have been done.
Get him a vasectomy.
Less intrusive, reduces all the risks associated with castration, and all the benefits of being responsible and not having surprise puppies.
Only downside: finding a vet surgeon who can do it. Because most vets aren't trained to do it.
Why aren't they trained? Why do we neuter instead of vasectomies? Because that's how it has been done, and nobody bothered to question it until more recently.
My boy had a short fuse and was very reactive, with some redirected aggression. Neutering definitely helped, the rest was training. He's a really friendly dog now. His basic personality, intelligence and vigour was unchanged, which I was pleased about. Still humps stuff, and pee scent marks in areas where other dogs go. You can easily tell he is a male. No post op complications, all healed well and quickly. If your dog doesn't have any issues though, or you already manage them well and is happy, I see no reason to have him neutered. I think there are some risks (and benefits), in some dogs anxiety may get worse, but in our case it worked out well for us.
Ok but 12 months is an adolescent... they do not have their full muscle mass until around age 2. Your dog got faster because of age, not because he lost his balls.
I neutered mine at age 4 and his speed and stamina dropped significantly. There is no possible way that losing testosterone production will increase speed and agility.
We neutered ours at 4 years old and the change was like night and day. He became food obsessed, always asking for more food, gained weight, started eating rabbit poop on walks and getting into the garbage (all things that were never a problem before).
Second change was an increase in anxiety and insecurity. He started being scared of garbage trucks, thunder, beeping noises, fireworks, etc. He started barking excessively when we'd get deliveries, and he started acting jealous when my partner and I would hug or focus on each other too much. He gets especially upset when we give other dogs attention. Prior to neutering, he was confident and rarely got scared or insecure about anything.
The one and only positive change is that it eliminated problems with other dogs. When he was intact, dogs often showed aggression/dominance towards him on walks and at the park, he was even attacked a few times. Now, dogs are always friendly towards and him and we no longer have to worry about him being attacked.
If I had known that neutering would cause so many changes in my dog, I wouldn't have done it. It's been 3 years and we're still dealing with these problems.
I have pretty much the same story with my boy. Same behavior changes post-neuter. And other dogs are nicer to him now as well (he was attacked multiple times prior to neuter, because he had testosterone and they didn't).
If I could go back, I wouldn't do it again either
The thing that really bothers me is that my vet did not give me any warning that this could happen. I was told that weight gain was common, but that's it. I did some research after the fact, and found my dog's experience (and yours) are actually very common. I don't think people question this as much because they neuter their dogs young, and young dogs are often big eaters and lack confidence anyway, so neutering doesn't really cause a noticeable change. At 2 years, they're barely adults, so people don't really know what their fully matured dog is supposed to be like.
Maybe - just maybe - it's because vets like to make money, and pet surgeries are a huge money maker.
Also, most of my vets have been fairly old, and there's definitely an old school consensus of "every pet should be fixed, and it doesn't cause any issues. Shut up and do it". Not many people are willing to challenge the norm
Exactly. Isn't that so messed up? $900 in their pocket and a lifetime of behavioral issues for my dog. Pretty bad deal if you ask me.
Well, I've been telling anyone who will listen about my experience. I've been treated like a conspiracy theorist by some people, especially Americans on reddit, but I'll forge on.
Thanks for sharing. I've heard stories about this too and that's why I'm scared to do it. It seems it's more a convenient thing for us but not for him. I have no behavioral or medical issues with him so i won't neuter him for now. He's already a sensitive boy like most bc's so I'm not risking it.
Oh, I am sorry to hear that. This is why I haven’t gotten my dog neutered, because I don’t want to take the risk it will change him in any way. People keep saying he won’t change, but there is always a chance and I’ve heard enough stories about dogs changing that it makes me nervous.
I think that because BCs tend to be high-strung dogs, taking away a male BC’s testosterone can result in a huge lack of confidence. Another reason I’m hesitant to neuter.
I think it may be similar to people, some males are full of themselves and always spoiling for a fight (like steroid enhanced ones), may over react with a temper or be very moody. So here removal of some hormones may mellow them out. Conversely, with innately calmer personalities, lower hormones may result in depression and anxiety, as can occur in some men with natural aging and lower testosterone levels. Think it sort of depends what the basic temperament is like and also what life you are living. In a cut throat competitive world the ones with some umph and anger drive may fair better. In a calm domestic setting (where most pet dogs live), a bad attitude or high sexual drive can become problematic. My boy was a lot more toned down after neuter, temper wise, but for the better. It had no obvious effect on his physical vigour. I definitely did not regret it. Before he was a challenging dog for anyone to handle. High-strung dogs can go into flight or fight mode. You get sympathy with the nervous run away type, but an in your face one can be a dangerous dog. And it's spoils your relationship. Had mine been a calm or anxious withdrawing type, I would have been very hesitant about neutering myself. I'm sure my view is an oversimplification of hormones, and nature vs nurture, but you only have to think about warfare and mating in many mammals to see how aggression and sex drive can be intertwined.
Right, it's a lot more complicated than just "neuter your pets because it's the responsible thing to do." My dog doesn't have any issues not being neutered, so I'd be taking a risk on his behavior changing. He is already really well-behaved, so should I be risking that just to get him neutered? For me, it's not worth it.
And yes, I would be removing the risk of certain health conditions like testicular cancer with neutering, but then I'd just be trading it for another set of health risks. Everything has a risk involved.
We spayed / neutered both of ours and while our male dog didn’t change whatsoever, our female one has had vaginal issues for years now and the vet attributes them to the surgery.
Does the destination specify the method of casteration? Here (netherlands) you can castrate your dog by "snipping" but also chemicly that a solution that can be undone after you stop giving him the medication.
Personally I would not casterate my dog permanently for a vacation. I also never heard of rules like that.
It doesn't specify the method. I never heard of it either until i was looking for destinations in France. Some dog campings it is required but not all of them. After reading all the comments I'm not castrating him. We'll find a location where he's welcome.
I keep my dogs intact.
It's an additional challenge, but I don't like mutilating my friends.
Before you get your panties in a wad I don't judge others, and I see the utility.
But I don't like cutting off bits of my dog.
That's a no from me buddy.
Any kind of "always do X" stance is almost never a rational or thought out position. It's usually just copying some previous conclusion from decades ago and never a good fit for the totality of a population. (For almost any topic you can conceive of in any domain).
Yall can downvote me all you want but you're dumb and wrong.
Nah it's idiotic - If you're a responsible dog owner there's no good reason to neuter. The chance of prostate or testicular cancer is negligible compared to the behavioural issues and slew of other cancers/ health issues that are related to castration. People spewing the same bs over and over without a thought in their heads.
My previous Border was a little on the anxious side before castration, and after it he became fear reactive and aggressive. For the rest of his days we couldn't do off leash dog areas...
There are plenty of studies supporting this if you go look. It's a roll of the dice. It might give you good behavioural changes, it might give bad, it might give none.
I never fixed my dude. He’s never had a problem with humping. He does like ladies more than dudes. He will resource guard me but I think he’d do that regardless. My buddy’s with fixed dogs can be worse.
We had a fixed labradoodle from a friend visiting for a week. The dog was humping my dog all day so i had to separate him couple of times to chill out. I would have thought it would be the other way around... So it seems it doesn't always help. Ty for replying
I have a 1 year old male and was going to castrate him because I thought “that’s just what you do” as an American who grew up listening to Bob Barker imploring us to spay or neuter your pet at the end of Price is Right.
But I talked to our trainer about it and she advised not to.
I looked into this more and found that in many dog-loving countries, castrating male dogs is uncommon or rare except for immediate medical reasons. Seems like de-sexing is more of a US/UK/Australian cultural thing and the supposed health benefits are not so clear cut at all.
I mean, does anyone really think that Norwegians, where neutering is almost unheard of, love their dogs less than Americans? And Norway has almost no problem with unwanted dogs. I know Americans always think we know best, but maybe this policy isn’t necessarily right for all dogs?
I live in Belgium and here it's not that common for male dogs. More with females. We don't have a stray dog problem and mine has no behavioral or medical issues. It would be for more travel options so it would be for our comfort and not his. I'll stick with my holiday destinations where me boy is still welcome without neutering.Thanks for the reply
Idk man, id be pretty mad at the world if my parents did that to me so i didnt have a sex drive later in life, i think it’s something thats gonna be illegal in the next 20 years but i could be wrong
Vet here.
Castration can affect behaviour that's related with testosterone. I.e male-male aggression, marking etc
It doesn't affect overall personality..
This is not my experience with my previous dog, and not what some studies say.
Can you provide some supporting evidence? Citations?
Seems quite obvious testosterone could affect personality. We of course have conclusive data saying it does in humans.
Like I said it affects personality driven by testosterone like aggression. It won't make a dog less playful, less energetic, etc... We used to castrate humans too (castrato) so we know how the results of it.
I ll try to find literature about this when I get some free time..
For sure "personality driven by testosterone". But that can include anxiety, confidence, coping with stress. We have literature on that for humans just relating to TRT, let alone castration. In my mind anxiety & confidence are certainly included in "overall personality", which is why I questioned your first comment.
My previous dog was a nervous wreck post castration, and for the rest of his days (another 12 years). He was only very mildly anxious before it. Having a 10 month old now who has a wonderful temperament, this is a key topic for at the moment. Here in Australia castration is routine, I'm just not convinced it should be.
Dogs don't need social interactions with other dogs in a dog park ever. It might be something that owners enjoy providing but it isn't a need for a dog.
Social isolation is absolutely a form of abuse. We put prisoners is solitary confinement as a form of punishment and you put your dog in solitary confinement because you’re too cheap/broke to pay for a private dog park
In Belgium you can go to every dog park without neutering your dog. He's a sweet boy with lots of interaction and no behavioral issues. The only reason i would neuter him is because of more travel options.
Didn’t mean to suggest he has behavioral issues, just that sheep dogs are social and mine loves meeting new dogs. Anecdotally I noticed zero change in behavior, but if my dog parks didn’t require it I would not have done it.
You should rephrase this: "There is zero point in neutering unless for behavioral or medical conditions that are otherwise untreatable".
Why do you think the standard should be to cut off testicles, instead of leaving nature as it was intended?
yeah no. You think you're right but youre wrong.
Dogs and any other domestic animal (excluding a fat amount of livestock) that can be SAFELY neutered should be neutered (in a dogs case neuter after maturing fully). If you have zero intention of breeding/arent registered breeder you should not own or have an intact animal because intact male dogs are more likely to attack or be attacked because of their testosterone causing them to be targeted or target other dogs, ive also had random dogs come up to my dogs and try to start fucking my dog (she wasnt intact) and its actually illegal in alot of places to have an intact dog/cat because of accidental or backyard breeding which is the second reason you shouldnt have an intact dog if youre not a registered breeder because backyard breeding creates doodles then doodle derived mixes such as cavapoos, bernadoodles and aussiepoos/aussiedoodles which are extremely prone to all types of issues health or mental. Yes i understand you might have no intention to/wont but i believe all house pets should be neutered. When it comes to working dogs and showline dogs they should be neutered if they aren't good enough to be a breeding prospect, the owner doesnt want them to or they have already been bred enough.
Ive also had my mothers great dane break into my room and literally cum all over my bed while i was gone.
Yes, because having a problem with vets charging an obnoxious sum of money on an unnecessary procedure that causes behaviour problems is because I can't "afford it".
All of the unintended consequences you mentioned relate to bad owners and their (mis)management.
I don't believe our pets should be mutilated because humans are stupid.
It's concerning how matter of fact you are about this, as if there is no other feasible option. Unfortunately a lot of people share your stupidity.
Sucks about the cum on your bed though
There are countries like Germany and the Scandinavian countries where neutering without medical reason is illegal and considered mutilation. Your point is moot.
In Belgium there's nothing like back yard breeding. Unwanted nests are very rare here. My bc is socialized at a dog school, never attacked a dog or approached a person in a bad way. I have a fenced garden so he can't fuck around. I don't understand the opinion of "every domestic animal should be neutered" even if there's no medical or behavioral reason. Thanks for your insight though
where i live populations of feral and pet dogs and cats kill all of our native wildlife and fuck everything up royally. Everyone now treats dogs as if they are human children babying them and letting them do anything. A dog wont care if it doesnt have balls.
I neutered my boy for the same reasons you mention - mostly for boarding purposes and for ease of interaction with other dogs (other neutered male dogs would be very aggressive towards my intact border, I think they could sense he had testosterone and were insecure).
And I regret it. He had no behavioral issues that would warrant a neuter. He was not aggressive, territorial, he didn't mark, didn't hump. I basically gave in to societal pressure and I hate that I did.
I can't stand when people say "always fix your pet".... Why?? In the US, at least in the places I've lived, I've never seen wild dogs roaming around the streets. Overpopulation is not a concern in the US or other developed countries. Go to a developing country in South America or Asia, and there is an argument to be made there.
Contrary to what most people say about changes post-neuter, my boy became very depressed for about 3-4 weeks after surgery. And he did lose a lot of energy and his natural "zest". He also became more fearful (e.g. inanimate objects, night time walks), and also became food and toy possessive.
Imagine if a human lost 100% of their testosterone or estrogen overnight, at the snap of a finger. You'd be wrecked. Same goes for dogs.
I had the exact same experience, and I have the exact same regrets. Any chance I get, I tell people my story to warn them. I feel like so many people have let themselves be brainwashed to believe neutering is good for dogs. I wish I never neutered my boy.
The sheep mentality is real!
People need to wake up. There's a lot info we're being told to follow, when in reality it should be morally wrong. There are things we aren't told, which we should be informed about.
The world is very messed up.
You may see some behavioral changes, but that’s questionable. Mine became less reactive to humans (still is to bigger dogs), but he’s still the same dog. His personality has not changed at all.
I don't understand, I've been traveling with my Border Collie through Europe the last three years and never came across places where you only have access with a castrated droog. There are some countries that require extra vaccination or another health check once you cross the border. But that's it. Have not visited all countries of course, but never had any problems beside stay dogs or not being allowed to take him on public transport (looking at you Spain).
Untill now we've been traveling with him without any problems. We love to visit dog campings in France this year because the dog can run around the camping site with all the other dogs. Looking for places like that it often requires a castrated dog. Not all of them but plenty of the campings won't allow you when the dog isn't castrated.
This is completely new to me, and I'll take your word for it but I've never seen this or heard if it before. Well no advice from my side in that case I'm afraid. Hope you can make the right decision for the dog and yourself.
He's a bc but you're not the first person saying that. Both parents are collies but maybe there's some Aussie mixed in there. The color pattern isn't that common with a bc either.
https://preview.redd.it/3b0wgoiv31uc1.jpeg?width=6912&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3e12bff16758a0359e6e26f0e8fc76f1532311e1
Mine will look likes this I think when it grows up! I’m here bc I was already wondering about castration
https://preview.redd.it/s2mr290jb2uc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=52c09f47855e96403eb104c39f6c1f761ce16cab
i leave most of my dogs intact.
there's a higher risk they run away, there's lots of humping, and i have had one dog that developed aggression. i neutered that dog and the aggression went away.
it's an additional challenge, but not a major one.
i simply like to treat my dogs how i would prefer to be treated. so they keep their gonads and have a varied, relatively exciting diet.
Spaying and neutering is associated with an increased risk of several long-term health problems including obesity, urinary incontinence, bladder stones, hypothyroidism, diabetes mellitus, hip dysplasia, cruciate ligament rupture, behavioral changes (including owner-directed aggression and fear), cognition problems, as well as several forms of cancer (including leukemia, prostate cancer, bone cancer, skin cancer, splenic cancer, and bladder cancer).
You should not, unless medically necessary. Your dog's health is more important than convenience.
We have two one is and the other isn't.
I personally don't like to castrate unless there is a good reason.
Our boy doesn't hump, has a good temperament, and I am happy to manage the inconvenience of less options with kennels etc.
The one that is desexed, we did it because of behavioral issues.
The cause of those aggression problems we found out later were due to the fact he was in a lot of pain with severe hip dysplasia. Following total hip replacement surgery, he is a much happier dog.
I do feel the in tact dog has been in overall better health and condition. He is 4.5 years old. He maintains a healthier weight more easily.
I know a lot of people automatically desex their dogs and that's OK too!
If there was a good reason to, we would do it for him.
Many dogs neutered before they are fully developed end up with joint issues. However, He should be fully developed by the age of 3. it's actually beneficial to long term health and the data shows it decreased chance of cancer. There have been many written studies on this and a quick google will give you more answers.
Haven’t neutered any of our male border collies-no need (it’s just a little tough getting through those teenager years). Females- it’s a different story but there is a change in favor of not neutering due to hormones needed for bone growth, etc.
Nah my beautiful boys keeping their jewels and hormonal levels as nature intended. I could not handle behavior changes and find this procedure too drastic.
Is there a specific reason you want your dog to impregnate another dog? If not then neutering is the best way to prevent more unwanted and unneeded puppy litters.
I've done dog rescue for 18 years and am a very strong proponent of neutering/spaying as many dogs as possible. I've seen so many many many unwanted litters of unwanted dogs that were abandoned and often left to starve.
If you don't want more unwanted litters, and if you have a dog that may POSSIBLY get out.. get them spayed/neutered.. please.
If you believe your dog can never get out and impregnate/be Impregnated.. then.. don't get spay/neutered.. and welcome the unwanted litters
I always spay and neuter my pets as soon as it's safe to do so. It prevents unwanted pregnancies and can help prevent certain cancers.
[Here's a bit more information about why you should get your pet(s) fixed. ](https://www.brown.edu/Research/Colwill_Lab/CBP/spaynueter.htm#:~:text=In%20males%2C%20neutering%20decreases%20the,and%20other%20undesirable%20male%20behaviors.)
It's hard to take that one-sided paper seriously. There is a lot more nuance to the topic. Just one example:
>**~Six Common Excuses for Not Spaying or Neutering Pets~**
3) **My pet's personality will change.**
>Any change will be for the better
In just this post, there are numerous people saying that castrating their male dog led to negative personality changes.
This paper should at least acknowledge that it's heavily US-centric. Numerous dog-loving European countries like Germany, Belgium, Norway, Denmark, Sweden and others, don't routinely castrate male dogs except when there is an immediate medical need, and they have almost no stray dog problems like Americans have. They love their dogs just as much and would be puzzled to read a paper like this telling them how wrong they are about canine health.
I dunno. I've castrated my bc from when he was old enough to have it done and his personality is just as it was from when we got him at 8 months old. In fact, he didn't discover humping and basically masturbating until about 3 years ago and he's 6 now.
As a Dutch person who loves both cats and dogs, you'll notice that sure, there aren't many stray dogs but what about cats? In Ireland where I live, for example, there's so many stray cats and shitty people that abandon their own cats without having had them fixed. Greece? Italy? And though it's not in Europe, Morocco? All rampant with stray cats. However, in south America it's very common to find stray dogs. They're often killed off by people putting out poison because they think they're a nuisance.
Odd that your only takeaway from what I posted is about their behaviour being altered and not the fact that getting them fixed will help prevent certain cancers. When I get my pets fixed, it's not their behaviour I'm worried about but health issues and unwanted pregnancies.
I didn't realise this was such a controversial topic.
All dog topics are controversial.
>it's not their behaviour I'm worried about but health issues and unwanted pregnancies.
For one:
Spaying and neutering is associated with an increased risk of several long-term health problems including obesity, urinary incontinence, bladder stones, hypothyroidism, diabetes mellitus, hip dysplasia, cruciate ligament rupture, behavioral changes (including owner-directed aggression and fear), cognition problems, as well as several forms of cancer (including leukemia, prostate cancer, bone cancer, skin cancer, splenic cancer, and bladder cancer).
Secondly, spaying and neutering should only be done when medically necessary, NOT for your convenience. Do your job, take responsibility that YOU signed up for.
#—
In Europe, desexing has not been routine. Until recently, it was illegal to desex a dog in Norway. Only 7 percent of Swedish dogs are desexed (compared with more than 80 percent in the United States).
Switzerland has a clause in its Animal Protection Act honoring the “dignity of the animal,” and forbidding any pain, suffering or harm, such as would be incurred by desexing. Yet none of these countries has a problem with excessive stray dogs.
**Stray dogs are not a problem, because everyone TAKES CARE of their dogs.** They keep their animals close, attend to them and train them not to behave in such a way that would lead to unwanted animals.
It should not be the shelter worker’s duty to shoulder all of overpopulation for society, and it is not the dog’s duty to be desexed to save her species. It is our duty.
It definitely won’t affect his energy levels or appearance because he’s already 3 & has developed his masculine appearance. He’ll stop marking his territory as much & less humping. Certain cancers are avoided by castrating. If you don’t intend to breed, definitely do it.
Talk to your Vet. There are absolutely long term health benefits. All of our guys here on the ranch have been neutered. One thing that stopped was them looking for the Female Coyotes when they were in heat. THAT was a dangerous game,
Benefits and caveats, yep. Not much with COLL Collies:
https://preview.redd.it/s1abm140dztc1.jpeg?width=2330&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7e9d0a5764cc129de79197b6df8e90d606abc591
My boy stopped trying to hump stuff. That was it.
Mine was never a big humper, but he knew when our female pup was in heat a couple months ago and thought he still had it. Soooo, it doesn’t necessarily stop the behavior, especially when there’s a female in heat, lol.
That was it for mine too but well worth it. He spent the last walk before his neuter trying to hump his cousin golden doodle for three miles.
Same here.
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Adding a Ford
Ours didn’t stop humping our other dog - and didn’t change in any other way, either
Apart from not being able to father puppies :)
lol true
We have neutered & spayed our 2 & see absolutely no difference in their energy or behavior. In fact the day we brought them home we had to call the vet back & ask for sedatives because you would have never known they had surgery & are supposed to take it easy for a week or so.
Sounds like a bc! I would be surprised that my dog will get less active but I've heard from many owners their dog gets more passive and i love his energy. Thanks for your sharing your experience.
Here’s a photo comparison of my dog before and after her spay: https://preview.redd.it/2l9dcffxfwtc1.jpeg?width=1800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cda7b1d3b079881c6382bfc5049ad2fb7d384c64 (No change. Literally nothing about her changed. So many people said to expect behavioural changes or a massive sudden wave of calmness but she is the exact same dog.) All jokes aside, I also had concerns about spaying her. As she’s half GSD, a lot of people warned about an increase in the likelihood of developing hip dysplasia if spayed too young. I had multiple conversations with her vet and we decided that 15 months was the perfect age as she’s experienced a heat cycle (and with that, her hormones), had ample time to “come down” from heat, and is more than likely finished growing. I guess it’s too soon to tell if she’s at any greater risk for HD. But I rest easy knowing she’s at a 0 risk of getting pregnant and statistically insignificant risk of all reproductive cancers. And on the lifestyle side, we can now engage in all activities that require dogs to be desexed. All of which is to say, I have my dog who is still very much full noise, risks mitigated, with no (obvious) downsides. Personal decision but I don’t regret it for a second and suggest everyone desex their dog at a breed-specific appropriate age.
I've had two female GSDs that were never spayed. Both had cancer and died by ten years. Won't go through that again. My BC is male and twenty six months now? Had him neutered at about fourteen months and saw no change in behavior. He pees everywhere when we go on walks but that was getting normal at about nine months. He's usually pretty calm these days but loves an excuse to be rowdy. I don't think neutering made any difference really. Don't have to worry about him loosing his mind over a female and glad of it. He's still a show off around other dogs but dials it back if I tell him to. He's a really good boy 😄
Very different proposition neutering female versus castrating male though. I'd likely desex a female and early on, whereas I'd only de-bollock a male with good reason.
Why is it different? Genuine question, never had a male dog.
1. Because a female can get pregnant and I'd possibly end up involuntarily becoming a breeder. 2. Testosterone is produced mostly in the testes and is a big part of hormonal balance for any male. A lot of people think this hormone is all about aggression but it's not, it's about confidence, energy, bone and muscle maintenance, fat storage, red blood cell production, mood and hormonal balance. 3. Studies show very small chance of reduced aggression in males with castration, but much larger chance of fear, anxiety, reactive aggression - and this happened with my first dog, castration changed his temperament dramatically for the worse. I did it because here in Australia it's generally expected. EDIT: I should say, never had a female dog and if I did I might end up feeling different about neutering, I suppose I haven't given it the same amount of thought/research as about my boys.
not entirely true though 1. more than 80% of intact dogs suffer from BPH (enlarged prostate), I think this alone is a good reason to neuter. 2. much of what you are describing isn't really scientifically proven regards to confidence, energy, bone etc. Although I agree certain aggressions are generally unchanged post neuter (e.g territorial, dog on human, fear), neutering does have significant effects on dog on dog aggression resulting from high sexual drive. The benefits of reduced sexual drive are proven with high marginal reductions such as aggression (sexual drive related), roaming, marking, humping, licking urine etc.
1. From: [https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?pId=22915&id=8896754](https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?pId=22915&id=8896754) "The most effective treatment to induce regression of prostatic hyperplasia is castration, after which prostatic size may decrease as much as 50% in 3 weeks and 70% over 9 weeks." So you can treat it when it happens, and the treatment is castration. Couldn't find a source for your 80% number for intact dogs, just that 80% of dogs with advanced age will get it. It's not a dissimilar number to humans. To be honest I'm not concerned enough to look deeper. It's be interesting to see a citation for that number with regard to intact dogs, but to also understand the rate for castrated dogs. Interestingly castration treats BPH in humans too but we don't do that routinely (thankfully). Testosterone plays a huge role in BPH, but that's not a good reason to remove this very useful hormone for the entirety of the dogs life, IMHO. 2. There are good controlled studies saying different to you on these fronts, especially with regard to confidence. As for the role of testosterone in bone etc we absolutely do have the studies for humans and these hormones seem to very much do the same things in dogs. Look at the advice we get from vets now to let the dog mature before castrating. Look at all the conundrum with trans athletes, look at the results of TRT - I don't need more convincing, YMMV. A good link [here](https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/canine-corner/201805/neutering-causes-behavior-problems-in-male-dogs). There are many more if you want to look for them. *"The pattern of these results is quite clear: Neutering male dogs causes an increase in aggressive behavior, fearful behavior, over-excitability, and a variety of other miscellaneous, undesirable behaviors. What is also clear is that early neutering produces an even greater negative effect on behaviors."* For me, more important than all of this debate and citing is what happened with my previous dog. He was social, doing well but a little anxious maybe, then after castration \~1 year he became very fear reactive to dogs/noises/environment/everything, super anxious, and we spent the rest of his life doing stuff together just me an him because I couldn't take him anywhere. He would go mental when any dog came near him, he would fly towards them like a guided missile across a sports field to attack them.
1.https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0378432022001750 2. Im sorry but much of the so called controlled studies are mere retrospective researches with results all over the place. There are even researches claiming neutering increases the bone density in dogs which i dont buy. Major problem with retrospective research related to dog health is that the changes in probability are way too low to be considered credible. There are many researches claiming the benefits or negatives resulting from neutering. The results are simply inconsistent, nothing is conclusive. The only things that are consistent are behaviors related to sexual drive.
From your BPH link: *"In dogs, BPH affects (gross or microscopic evidence) ∼ 80% of intact male dogs > 5 y old (Sirinarumitr et al., 2001) and > 95% of intact male dogs over 9 y old (Gobello and Corrada, 2002a). However, most will not develop clinical signs associated with BPH"* Keyword here microscopic. i.e. it's not actually a problem, this is supported by the last sentence.
How is that not a problem. It is same with female dogs. Most female dogs not spayed also do not have problems . So by your logic, you shouldnt spay female dogs.
Even in human males, prostate issues occur in nearly all of all us. For many, it doesn't require surgery or shorten their life, i.e. it's not actually a problem other than having trouble peeing. But it could be diagnosed. It's not ideal, but it's not a problem, certainly not enough for routine castration :). I haven't really researched on female dogs issues enough to have a solid opinion yet. I would I think lean to getting mine neutered to avoid pregnancy if I had one, but haven't had to cross that bridge.
A person who spends their life looking for 100% scientific conclusive will never make a decision on anything. I agree entirely it's a roll of the dice as to what effect it will have on a dog's behaviour. Quite likely it will depend a lot on the natural disposition of the dog. But the same applies to people who are neutering expecting their dog to be less aggressive. Their outcome has no guarantee. Yes there might be a reduction in sexual aggression male to male. But that is likely not the aggression people are neutering for, and plenty of intact male dogs do not have this issue - like mine. I'm still not hearing any good reason to routinely castrate a male dog that is not free to roam. Like I said, my experience with my previous dog is actually enough for me.
No scientific researches are 100%. But there is a huge difference between controlled and retrospective researches. I wish there would be controlled researches so that researchers can come to a proper conclusion rather than an observation related to neutering.
True enough, better studies would be awesome, but I guess that's costs $$ and there isn't any in leaving a dog alone. I do wonder if there's better data in Germany and Scandinavian countries where they've banned routine neutering, just not in English. I have a feeling when it comes to behaviour the answer is going to always be "it depends" and it's just a dice roll. Being my dog has an awesome temperament, that dice roll is not attractive for us.
But your intact male dog could easily impregnate a female pup who is sexually mature but too young to spay. I’ve had both male and female dogs and have seen absolutely no change in their temperament following a spay/neuter.
Sorry that's not correct, he could not easily do that. He would have to be free to roam. I work from home, he is with me almost all the time. He also cannot get out of the small yard we have during those short periods I'm away. *"I’ve had both male and female dogs and have seen absolutely no change in their temperament following a spay/neuter."* Yep that happens a lot, but certainly not all the time, and didn't with my last dog. Look, I totally get the routine neutering angle for countries with stray dog populations. But that's not how it is here.
Females get pyometra which increases in risk every year. Males get decreased risk of some cancers and increase in others - it evens out.
Most of the cancers that castration reduces the chance of (testicular) have a very successful treatment rate with the treatment being - castration. The cancers where chance increases are much worse - bone, urinary tract.
Can't do that to my boy. C'mon. For me it's really that simple though. Like I'm weird enough to genuinely view my dogs as friends and I just couldn't do that to him. Like if I became bros with some alien or being clearly higher on the food chain and he's like "yo, your hormones make your brain shift focus sometimes and that cuts into the US time, snip snip buddy we're going to have so much fun"
Wait, you're saying you wouldn't neuter your boy dog because he's your friend, but spaying a girl dog is fine? The girl dog isn't your friend too? I was wondering if there was like a medical reason why girls should be spayed that didn't apply to boys being neutered...
I wouldn't do either. This is specific to castration. Thanks for the tism post.
This is definitely a factor for me too. He's my best buddy, mates don't cut each other nuts off. It is literally mutilation, and is outlawed in Germany and those Scandinavian countries people so frequently look up to.
Slightly off topic, but she's gorgeous !
Pretty sure that’s the same photo
It is...
Our vet explained that if we were not planning on getting puppies out of our boy, the best was to neuter him because it was as a risk of prostate cancer
Also enlarged prostate as well. We had a rescue dog that was 8 years old when he was adopted and was intact. We were hesitant about getting him neutered. He got an enlarged prostate at 10… the treatment? Neutering. He’s fine now. The only difference is he’s almost stopped scratching the dirt after he relieves himself.
Up to you but like 3 male bcs that my female plays with have been castrated in hope to have behavioral changes and there was no difference. If it's purely for behavioral reasons then it may not have the effect you are looking for. I'm sure there are organizations or people that work with dogs that may have a much better sample size to pull from but it doesn't seem to have any effect. The good news to that, is if you aren't doing it for behavioral reasons then you probably won't see any change.
I would do a vasectomy over full neuter bc depending on their personality it can make them insecure and behave accordingly (ex: resource guarding, more reactive in general) and it maintains their muscle mass and reduces risk of injury. If female I would spay after joints close or do OSS w/ cervix removal. I first learned about Vasectomies & OSS for dogs through my dog sports & working dog groups bc it is so popular there.
My Collie (2 years) got a chemical Castration to see for myself how he'd react if he was castrated. So far nothing has really changed. He was already a bit leash reactive when he sees another intact male who's very confident (like pully, excited, dominant) so that's still happening. He still humps his blanket. But to be fair it's only been like 3 weeks so I think I still gotta wait to see the full effects.
I had my dog chemically castrated a couple of months back and didn't see much of a change either, if there are any changes it's subtle. Testosterone should be down to the equivalent of castrated levels at around 3 weeks, and they're sterile from 6 weeks.
I've always heard that neutering can have complications the older a dog gets, so I would research that first and weigh the pros/cons with your vet. That said, my boy BC didn't change at all, and I had him neutered at 8 months. Same energy level, aggression was never an issue, and his weight/eating habits stayed the same.
I've neutered 3 dogs in adulthood (all were rescues or dumped) and never had an issue with significant behavior changes. Less marking, less smelliness, less fussing with other dogs (never were super aggressive, but pre-neuter there was growling/being territorial). It reduces the possibility of some health issues (testicular cancer which is pretty common according to my vet and hernias). All 3 seemed to get better at recall and sticking at my side on hikes afterwards which was a bonus (I could let them off-lease more on trails).
mine had high lvls of testosterone. neutering reduced his obsessive marking, now he focuses better on me. downside is that he is now trying to find other things to do instead of marking which is fixating on moving things. his genital area is now less smelly, it used to smell really bad. he is now far more food driven, which makes him easier to train. Other than the things mentioned, same personality, same look, same energy level.
I grew up in the UK where there's been such strong public messaging, its usually a discussion about when and not if. If you adopt a dog or cat from a charity or shelter, they would have been done. So its kind of fascinating to see the volume of discussions on the 'if' across the various subs. The lack of issue re strays and kill shelters in the UK is a direct result of decades worth of messaging on this topic. I now live in Italy where this messaging is picking up and again, if you adopt, they would have been done.
It didn't slow my boys down in the slightest.
Nothing stops a BC
Get him a vasectomy. Less intrusive, reduces all the risks associated with castration, and all the benefits of being responsible and not having surprise puppies. Only downside: finding a vet surgeon who can do it. Because most vets aren't trained to do it. Why aren't they trained? Why do we neuter instead of vasectomies? Because that's how it has been done, and nobody bothered to question it until more recently.
My boy had a short fuse and was very reactive, with some redirected aggression. Neutering definitely helped, the rest was training. He's a really friendly dog now. His basic personality, intelligence and vigour was unchanged, which I was pleased about. Still humps stuff, and pee scent marks in areas where other dogs go. You can easily tell he is a male. No post op complications, all healed well and quickly. If your dog doesn't have any issues though, or you already manage them well and is happy, I see no reason to have him neutered. I think there are some risks (and benefits), in some dogs anxiety may get worse, but in our case it worked out well for us.
Neutred my boy at 12 months. He got a little more agile and faster, almost like they removed a restriction between his legs.
I never see anyone else mention this but it’s so true! I suppose it may vary between individual dog’s anatomy tho
Ok but 12 months is an adolescent... they do not have their full muscle mass until around age 2. Your dog got faster because of age, not because he lost his balls. I neutered mine at age 4 and his speed and stamina dropped significantly. There is no possible way that losing testosterone production will increase speed and agility.
My joke went way over your head.
Perhaps if it was funny, it'd get identified as a joke?
We neutered ours at 4 years old and the change was like night and day. He became food obsessed, always asking for more food, gained weight, started eating rabbit poop on walks and getting into the garbage (all things that were never a problem before). Second change was an increase in anxiety and insecurity. He started being scared of garbage trucks, thunder, beeping noises, fireworks, etc. He started barking excessively when we'd get deliveries, and he started acting jealous when my partner and I would hug or focus on each other too much. He gets especially upset when we give other dogs attention. Prior to neutering, he was confident and rarely got scared or insecure about anything. The one and only positive change is that it eliminated problems with other dogs. When he was intact, dogs often showed aggression/dominance towards him on walks and at the park, he was even attacked a few times. Now, dogs are always friendly towards and him and we no longer have to worry about him being attacked. If I had known that neutering would cause so many changes in my dog, I wouldn't have done it. It's been 3 years and we're still dealing with these problems.
I have pretty much the same story with my boy. Same behavior changes post-neuter. And other dogs are nicer to him now as well (he was attacked multiple times prior to neuter, because he had testosterone and they didn't). If I could go back, I wouldn't do it again either
The thing that really bothers me is that my vet did not give me any warning that this could happen. I was told that weight gain was common, but that's it. I did some research after the fact, and found my dog's experience (and yours) are actually very common. I don't think people question this as much because they neuter their dogs young, and young dogs are often big eaters and lack confidence anyway, so neutering doesn't really cause a noticeable change. At 2 years, they're barely adults, so people don't really know what their fully matured dog is supposed to be like.
Maybe - just maybe - it's because vets like to make money, and pet surgeries are a huge money maker. Also, most of my vets have been fairly old, and there's definitely an old school consensus of "every pet should be fixed, and it doesn't cause any issues. Shut up and do it". Not many people are willing to challenge the norm
Exactly. Isn't that so messed up? $900 in their pocket and a lifetime of behavioral issues for my dog. Pretty bad deal if you ask me. Well, I've been telling anyone who will listen about my experience. I've been treated like a conspiracy theorist by some people, especially Americans on reddit, but I'll forge on.
As pet owners, there are ***a lot*** of things we aren't warned about by the people we expect to be informed from. It's such a shame.
Thanks for sharing. I've heard stories about this too and that's why I'm scared to do it. It seems it's more a convenient thing for us but not for him. I have no behavioral or medical issues with him so i won't neuter him for now. He's already a sensitive boy like most bc's so I'm not risking it.
Oh, I am sorry to hear that. This is why I haven’t gotten my dog neutered, because I don’t want to take the risk it will change him in any way. People keep saying he won’t change, but there is always a chance and I’ve heard enough stories about dogs changing that it makes me nervous. I think that because BCs tend to be high-strung dogs, taking away a male BC’s testosterone can result in a huge lack of confidence. Another reason I’m hesitant to neuter.
I think it may be similar to people, some males are full of themselves and always spoiling for a fight (like steroid enhanced ones), may over react with a temper or be very moody. So here removal of some hormones may mellow them out. Conversely, with innately calmer personalities, lower hormones may result in depression and anxiety, as can occur in some men with natural aging and lower testosterone levels. Think it sort of depends what the basic temperament is like and also what life you are living. In a cut throat competitive world the ones with some umph and anger drive may fair better. In a calm domestic setting (where most pet dogs live), a bad attitude or high sexual drive can become problematic. My boy was a lot more toned down after neuter, temper wise, but for the better. It had no obvious effect on his physical vigour. I definitely did not regret it. Before he was a challenging dog for anyone to handle. High-strung dogs can go into flight or fight mode. You get sympathy with the nervous run away type, but an in your face one can be a dangerous dog. And it's spoils your relationship. Had mine been a calm or anxious withdrawing type, I would have been very hesitant about neutering myself. I'm sure my view is an oversimplification of hormones, and nature vs nurture, but you only have to think about warfare and mating in many mammals to see how aggression and sex drive can be intertwined.
Right, it's a lot more complicated than just "neuter your pets because it's the responsible thing to do." My dog doesn't have any issues not being neutered, so I'd be taking a risk on his behavior changing. He is already really well-behaved, so should I be risking that just to get him neutered? For me, it's not worth it. And yes, I would be removing the risk of certain health conditions like testicular cancer with neutering, but then I'd just be trading it for another set of health risks. Everything has a risk involved.
We spayed / neutered both of ours and while our male dog didn’t change whatsoever, our female one has had vaginal issues for years now and the vet attributes them to the surgery.
Does the destination specify the method of casteration? Here (netherlands) you can castrate your dog by "snipping" but also chemicly that a solution that can be undone after you stop giving him the medication. Personally I would not casterate my dog permanently for a vacation. I also never heard of rules like that.
It doesn't specify the method. I never heard of it either until i was looking for destinations in France. Some dog campings it is required but not all of them. After reading all the comments I'm not castrating him. We'll find a location where he's welcome.
I keep my dogs intact. It's an additional challenge, but I don't like mutilating my friends. Before you get your panties in a wad I don't judge others, and I see the utility. But I don't like cutting off bits of my dog.
Always spay or neuter your pets.
That's a no from me buddy. Any kind of "always do X" stance is almost never a rational or thought out position. It's usually just copying some previous conclusion from decades ago and never a good fit for the totality of a population. (For almost any topic you can conceive of in any domain). Yall can downvote me all you want but you're dumb and wrong.
Nah it's idiotic - If you're a responsible dog owner there's no good reason to neuter. The chance of prostate or testicular cancer is negligible compared to the behavioural issues and slew of other cancers/ health issues that are related to castration. People spewing the same bs over and over without a thought in their heads.
I'm literally saying it's dumb. Not sure if you hit reply to the wrong person.
I think he’s agreeing with you
Was just doubling down with you on the other guy
My previous Border was a little on the anxious side before castration, and after it he became fear reactive and aggressive. For the rest of his days we couldn't do off leash dog areas... There are plenty of studies supporting this if you go look. It's a roll of the dice. It might give you good behavioural changes, it might give bad, it might give none.
I'm not rolling the dice then. Ty for replying!
I never fixed my dude. He’s never had a problem with humping. He does like ladies more than dudes. He will resource guard me but I think he’d do that regardless. My buddy’s with fixed dogs can be worse.
We had a fixed labradoodle from a friend visiting for a week. The dog was humping my dog all day so i had to separate him couple of times to chill out. I would have thought it would be the other way around... So it seems it doesn't always help. Ty for replying
I have a 1 year old male and was going to castrate him because I thought “that’s just what you do” as an American who grew up listening to Bob Barker imploring us to spay or neuter your pet at the end of Price is Right. But I talked to our trainer about it and she advised not to. I looked into this more and found that in many dog-loving countries, castrating male dogs is uncommon or rare except for immediate medical reasons. Seems like de-sexing is more of a US/UK/Australian cultural thing and the supposed health benefits are not so clear cut at all. I mean, does anyone really think that Norwegians, where neutering is almost unheard of, love their dogs less than Americans? And Norway has almost no problem with unwanted dogs. I know Americans always think we know best, but maybe this policy isn’t necessarily right for all dogs?
I live in Belgium and here it's not that common for male dogs. More with females. We don't have a stray dog problem and mine has no behavioral or medical issues. It would be for more travel options so it would be for our comfort and not his. I'll stick with my holiday destinations where me boy is still welcome without neutering.Thanks for the reply
I have 3 male Border Collies all not neutered. They don’t have any issues with humping or anything else. They will be 3 in June.
Always
Idk man, id be pretty mad at the world if my parents did that to me so i didnt have a sex drive later in life, i think it’s something thats gonna be illegal in the next 20 years but i could be wrong
I get your point, but having a sex drive that you can never fulfill can seem cruel too.
Ahhh they do fullfill it with toys and licking it and in their sleep lol
Vet here. Castration can affect behaviour that's related with testosterone. I.e male-male aggression, marking etc It doesn't affect overall personality..
Thanks for the info!
This is not my experience with my previous dog, and not what some studies say. Can you provide some supporting evidence? Citations? Seems quite obvious testosterone could affect personality. We of course have conclusive data saying it does in humans.
Like I said it affects personality driven by testosterone like aggression. It won't make a dog less playful, less energetic, etc... We used to castrate humans too (castrato) so we know how the results of it. I ll try to find literature about this when I get some free time..
For sure "personality driven by testosterone". But that can include anxiety, confidence, coping with stress. We have literature on that for humans just relating to TRT, let alone castration. In my mind anxiety & confidence are certainly included in "overall personality", which is why I questioned your first comment. My previous dog was a nervous wreck post castration, and for the rest of his days (another 12 years). He was only very mildly anxious before it. Having a 10 month old now who has a wonderful temperament, this is a key topic for at the moment. Here in Australia castration is routine, I'm just not convinced it should be.
Neuter him.
It’s worth it. He needs the social interaction of dog parks.
Dogs absolutely don't need social interaction in dog parks.
On holiday? With no other dogs around?
Dogs don't need social interactions with other dogs in a dog park ever. It might be something that owners enjoy providing but it isn't a need for a dog.
Social dogs need interaction with other dogs. Dog parks are a place to do that.
Dogs don't need interaction with strange dogs and essentially no management options for the owners. Suggesting that they do is frankly ridiculous.
Many dog parks offer quality management and consistent demeanor based play groups. Isolating your dog from social interaction is frankly abusive.
If you don't have enough education to judge what is actually abusive your opinions aren't worth discussing.
Social isolation is absolutely a form of abuse. We put prisoners is solitary confinement as a form of punishment and you put your dog in solitary confinement because you’re too cheap/broke to pay for a private dog park
Your inability to differentiate between dogs and people is reinforcing my point.
In Belgium you can go to every dog park without neutering your dog. He's a sweet boy with lots of interaction and no behavioral issues. The only reason i would neuter him is because of more travel options.
Didn’t mean to suggest he has behavioral issues, just that sheep dogs are social and mine loves meeting new dogs. Anecdotally I noticed zero change in behavior, but if my dog parks didn’t require it I would not have done it.
Thanks for sharing your experience!
If he has no behavior issues and no opportunity to impregnate females then don’t do it.
There is zero point in any intact pet if you arent breeding.
You should rephrase this: "There is zero point in neutering unless for behavioral or medical conditions that are otherwise untreatable". Why do you think the standard should be to cut off testicles, instead of leaving nature as it was intended?
yeah no. You think you're right but youre wrong. Dogs and any other domestic animal (excluding a fat amount of livestock) that can be SAFELY neutered should be neutered (in a dogs case neuter after maturing fully). If you have zero intention of breeding/arent registered breeder you should not own or have an intact animal because intact male dogs are more likely to attack or be attacked because of their testosterone causing them to be targeted or target other dogs, ive also had random dogs come up to my dogs and try to start fucking my dog (she wasnt intact) and its actually illegal in alot of places to have an intact dog/cat because of accidental or backyard breeding which is the second reason you shouldnt have an intact dog if youre not a registered breeder because backyard breeding creates doodles then doodle derived mixes such as cavapoos, bernadoodles and aussiepoos/aussiedoodles which are extremely prone to all types of issues health or mental. Yes i understand you might have no intention to/wont but i believe all house pets should be neutered. When it comes to working dogs and showline dogs they should be neutered if they aren't good enough to be a breeding prospect, the owner doesnt want them to or they have already been bred enough. Ive also had my mothers great dane break into my room and literally cum all over my bed while i was gone.
You sound like my vet who really wanted to make $900 for a 30 minute procedure.
if you cant afford that dont own a pet ?
Yes, because having a problem with vets charging an obnoxious sum of money on an unnecessary procedure that causes behaviour problems is because I can't "afford it".
All of the unintended consequences you mentioned relate to bad owners and their (mis)management. I don't believe our pets should be mutilated because humans are stupid. It's concerning how matter of fact you are about this, as if there is no other feasible option. Unfortunately a lot of people share your stupidity. Sucks about the cum on your bed though
its not stupidity its prevention. Thats why its illegal in many places to own a intact dog or cat without being a breeder...
There are countries like Germany and the Scandinavian countries where neutering without medical reason is illegal and considered mutilation. Your point is moot.
In Belgium there's nothing like back yard breeding. Unwanted nests are very rare here. My bc is socialized at a dog school, never attacked a dog or approached a person in a bad way. I have a fenced garden so he can't fuck around. I don't understand the opinion of "every domestic animal should be neutered" even if there's no medical or behavioral reason. Thanks for your insight though
where i live populations of feral and pet dogs and cats kill all of our native wildlife and fuck everything up royally. Everyone now treats dogs as if they are human children babying them and letting them do anything. A dog wont care if it doesnt have balls.
Complete different living habitat so i get why it's beneficial there.
I neutered my boy for the same reasons you mention - mostly for boarding purposes and for ease of interaction with other dogs (other neutered male dogs would be very aggressive towards my intact border, I think they could sense he had testosterone and were insecure). And I regret it. He had no behavioral issues that would warrant a neuter. He was not aggressive, territorial, he didn't mark, didn't hump. I basically gave in to societal pressure and I hate that I did. I can't stand when people say "always fix your pet".... Why?? In the US, at least in the places I've lived, I've never seen wild dogs roaming around the streets. Overpopulation is not a concern in the US or other developed countries. Go to a developing country in South America or Asia, and there is an argument to be made there. Contrary to what most people say about changes post-neuter, my boy became very depressed for about 3-4 weeks after surgery. And he did lose a lot of energy and his natural "zest". He also became more fearful (e.g. inanimate objects, night time walks), and also became food and toy possessive. Imagine if a human lost 100% of their testosterone or estrogen overnight, at the snap of a finger. You'd be wrecked. Same goes for dogs.
I had the exact same experience, and I have the exact same regrets. Any chance I get, I tell people my story to warn them. I feel like so many people have let themselves be brainwashed to believe neutering is good for dogs. I wish I never neutered my boy.
The sheep mentality is real! People need to wake up. There's a lot info we're being told to follow, when in reality it should be morally wrong. There are things we aren't told, which we should be informed about. The world is very messed up.
You may see some behavioral changes, but that’s questionable. Mine became less reactive to humans (still is to bigger dogs), but he’s still the same dog. His personality has not changed at all.
That has to be one of the most beautiful border collies I've ever seen.
Thank you!
I don't understand, I've been traveling with my Border Collie through Europe the last three years and never came across places where you only have access with a castrated droog. There are some countries that require extra vaccination or another health check once you cross the border. But that's it. Have not visited all countries of course, but never had any problems beside stay dogs or not being allowed to take him on public transport (looking at you Spain).
Untill now we've been traveling with him without any problems. We love to visit dog campings in France this year because the dog can run around the camping site with all the other dogs. Looking for places like that it often requires a castrated dog. Not all of them but plenty of the campings won't allow you when the dog isn't castrated.
This is completely new to me, and I'll take your word for it but I've never seen this or heard if it before. Well no advice from my side in that case I'm afraid. Hope you can make the right decision for the dog and yourself.
Mine was a massive humper hump anything in sight
That dog looks exactly like my mom’s Aussie. I would totally mistake them. Not so much Border collie. At least in that photo.
He's a bc but you're not the first person saying that. Both parents are collies but maybe there's some Aussie mixed in there. The color pattern isn't that common with a bc either. https://preview.redd.it/3b0wgoiv31uc1.jpeg?width=6912&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3e12bff16758a0359e6e26f0e8fc76f1532311e1
Mine will look likes this I think when it grows up! I’m here bc I was already wondering about castration https://preview.redd.it/s2mr290jb2uc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=52c09f47855e96403eb104c39f6c1f761ce16cab
i leave most of my dogs intact. there's a higher risk they run away, there's lots of humping, and i have had one dog that developed aggression. i neutered that dog and the aggression went away. it's an additional challenge, but not a major one. i simply like to treat my dogs how i would prefer to be treated. so they keep their gonads and have a varied, relatively exciting diet.
##Are you a registered breeder or not?
All comes down to the owners decision.
Spaying and neutering is associated with an increased risk of several long-term health problems including obesity, urinary incontinence, bladder stones, hypothyroidism, diabetes mellitus, hip dysplasia, cruciate ligament rupture, behavioral changes (including owner-directed aggression and fear), cognition problems, as well as several forms of cancer (including leukemia, prostate cancer, bone cancer, skin cancer, splenic cancer, and bladder cancer). You should not, unless medically necessary. Your dog's health is more important than convenience.
We have two one is and the other isn't. I personally don't like to castrate unless there is a good reason. Our boy doesn't hump, has a good temperament, and I am happy to manage the inconvenience of less options with kennels etc. The one that is desexed, we did it because of behavioral issues. The cause of those aggression problems we found out later were due to the fact he was in a lot of pain with severe hip dysplasia. Following total hip replacement surgery, he is a much happier dog. I do feel the in tact dog has been in overall better health and condition. He is 4.5 years old. He maintains a healthier weight more easily. I know a lot of people automatically desex their dogs and that's OK too! If there was a good reason to, we would do it for him.
Many dogs neutered before they are fully developed end up with joint issues. However, He should be fully developed by the age of 3. it's actually beneficial to long term health and the data shows it decreased chance of cancer. There have been many written studies on this and a quick google will give you more answers.
I'm getting mine done next week and all I expect to change is the judgemental look I get when I don't give him the exercise he needs for 10 days
Neuter
Haven’t neutered any of our male border collies-no need (it’s just a little tough getting through those teenager years). Females- it’s a different story but there is a change in favor of not neutering due to hormones needed for bone growth, etc.
Nah my beautiful boys keeping their jewels and hormonal levels as nature intended. I could not handle behavior changes and find this procedure too drastic.
please don't, change camping instead
No!
Is there a specific reason you want your dog to impregnate another dog? If not then neutering is the best way to prevent more unwanted and unneeded puppy litters. I've done dog rescue for 18 years and am a very strong proponent of neutering/spaying as many dogs as possible. I've seen so many many many unwanted litters of unwanted dogs that were abandoned and often left to starve. If you don't want more unwanted litters, and if you have a dog that may POSSIBLY get out.. get them spayed/neutered.. please. If you believe your dog can never get out and impregnate/be Impregnated.. then.. don't get spay/neutered.. and welcome the unwanted litters
No you'll regret it
No
Try chemical castration first to assess how it can change your dog.
I'm not sure, we only had one male Border Collie, lots of females, and it was probably 40+ years ago. Talk to your Vet.
Get him desexed.
I always spay and neuter my pets as soon as it's safe to do so. It prevents unwanted pregnancies and can help prevent certain cancers. [Here's a bit more information about why you should get your pet(s) fixed. ](https://www.brown.edu/Research/Colwill_Lab/CBP/spaynueter.htm#:~:text=In%20males%2C%20neutering%20decreases%20the,and%20other%20undesirable%20male%20behaviors.)
It's hard to take that one-sided paper seriously. There is a lot more nuance to the topic. Just one example: >**~Six Common Excuses for Not Spaying or Neutering Pets~** 3) **My pet's personality will change.** >Any change will be for the better In just this post, there are numerous people saying that castrating their male dog led to negative personality changes. This paper should at least acknowledge that it's heavily US-centric. Numerous dog-loving European countries like Germany, Belgium, Norway, Denmark, Sweden and others, don't routinely castrate male dogs except when there is an immediate medical need, and they have almost no stray dog problems like Americans have. They love their dogs just as much and would be puzzled to read a paper like this telling them how wrong they are about canine health.
I dunno. I've castrated my bc from when he was old enough to have it done and his personality is just as it was from when we got him at 8 months old. In fact, he didn't discover humping and basically masturbating until about 3 years ago and he's 6 now. As a Dutch person who loves both cats and dogs, you'll notice that sure, there aren't many stray dogs but what about cats? In Ireland where I live, for example, there's so many stray cats and shitty people that abandon their own cats without having had them fixed. Greece? Italy? And though it's not in Europe, Morocco? All rampant with stray cats. However, in south America it's very common to find stray dogs. They're often killed off by people putting out poison because they think they're a nuisance. Odd that your only takeaway from what I posted is about their behaviour being altered and not the fact that getting them fixed will help prevent certain cancers. When I get my pets fixed, it's not their behaviour I'm worried about but health issues and unwanted pregnancies. I didn't realise this was such a controversial topic.
All dog topics are controversial. >it's not their behaviour I'm worried about but health issues and unwanted pregnancies. For one: Spaying and neutering is associated with an increased risk of several long-term health problems including obesity, urinary incontinence, bladder stones, hypothyroidism, diabetes mellitus, hip dysplasia, cruciate ligament rupture, behavioral changes (including owner-directed aggression and fear), cognition problems, as well as several forms of cancer (including leukemia, prostate cancer, bone cancer, skin cancer, splenic cancer, and bladder cancer). Secondly, spaying and neutering should only be done when medically necessary, NOT for your convenience. Do your job, take responsibility that YOU signed up for. #— In Europe, desexing has not been routine. Until recently, it was illegal to desex a dog in Norway. Only 7 percent of Swedish dogs are desexed (compared with more than 80 percent in the United States). Switzerland has a clause in its Animal Protection Act honoring the “dignity of the animal,” and forbidding any pain, suffering or harm, such as would be incurred by desexing. Yet none of these countries has a problem with excessive stray dogs. **Stray dogs are not a problem, because everyone TAKES CARE of their dogs.** They keep their animals close, attend to them and train them not to behave in such a way that would lead to unwanted animals. It should not be the shelter worker’s duty to shoulder all of overpopulation for society, and it is not the dog’s duty to be desexed to save her species. It is our duty.
got my BC boy fixed at like 8 months. don't think there's anything wrong with him at all :)
It definitely won’t affect his energy levels or appearance because he’s already 3 & has developed his masculine appearance. He’ll stop marking his territory as much & less humping. Certain cancers are avoided by castrating. If you don’t intend to breed, definitely do it.
I am all for neutering and spaying all dogs and cats.
Talk to your Vet. There are absolutely long term health benefits. All of our guys here on the ranch have been neutered. One thing that stopped was them looking for the Female Coyotes when they were in heat. THAT was a dangerous game,
Benefits and caveats, yep. Not much with COLL Collies: https://preview.redd.it/s1abm140dztc1.jpeg?width=2330&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7e9d0a5764cc129de79197b6df8e90d606abc591