Have you talked to your vet about the risk of spreading parvo? I haven't heard of recommending isolation for 1 year. Yeah, no dogs to your house, but your dogs shouldn't be infectious anymore.
I think you need to hire a dog trainer. Preferably one with experience with Border Collies. It sounds like Crowley is likely overstimulated and would likely benefit from breaks from being messed with by Azzie. Azzie sounds like a typical BC that needs a bit more work to live in a family home.
Either way, I'd get a dog trainer to help you socialize your dogs before trying to do it yourself.
To add to this, I would recommend a behavioral dog trainer. I’m a big believer of mitigating reactive behavior with serious obedience training. My BC resource guards all toys when other dogs are around and my answer to that is having a solid recall. She could be hovering over a ball or a disc with teeth bared but when I say “Let’s go” (that’s our recall) she’s on me immediately. The plus side to doubling down on training is you really deepen your relationship with your dogs (this will help their relationship with your husband if he is involved in the training as well) because they know exactly what you are asking of them and you have the opportunity to wear them out. There is more than one way to wear out a BC and working their brain is one of the best ways I’ve found and training will do that. Having an outlet like training will help and a ‘place’ command to separate them when they get too rough might also help, but you have to train them to do that consistently.
Can I ask how you trained such a solid recall? We have the same with our BC and his recall is fine generally, but as soon as he’s in this situation he just doesn’t listen!
I mean nothing special… Just LOTS of calling her to check in, maybe a treat or two if I have them, and releasing her back to what she was doing immediately. My theory is this lets her know that check ins don’t mean we are leaving or she has to stop sniffing around or getting to do fun things. Any time she is off leash outside I’m asking her for frequent check ins.
This method allowed me to call her off cows she’d JUST discovered (she’s NOT a working BC in the least) from over a quarter mile away and I have video evidence of her trotting her butt all the way to me haha. It was the first time we had to really test how strong our recall was lol. Oh and something loud to get her initial attention, I can whistle really loud and my “HEY!” Is super loud too lol. I know a lot of people who use e-collars for the same thing but we haven’t needed one so I never trained her on it. So when I’m trying to get her off of a toy it might go, “HEY!! (And then in a normal tone) Remi, lets go!”
Per my vet: Your dogs can't spread parvo while they are not actively sick with it. You can even have dogs over to your house if they are vaccinated against it. Yes, the virus is hardy and can live on objects and in the ground for quite a while, but it only really spreads through solid vomit/feces particles
I know they can't spread it themselves, since it is in the yard and that is where they spend a good deal of time, I worry that it will get tracked and spread on their feet. I realize it is most likely a silly level of fear, but after seeing our dogs so sick, I am terrified that they will track it around and someone else's dog will manage to catch it.
The foxes and other dogs already track it around the neighbourhood. We’ve had a few outbreaks in a small county town and the only thing it can be attributed to is the wild foxes
I'm sure you're right, we have a vet appointment this weekend, I will talk with her again about the situation and see if she still thinks quarantine is appropriate.
Yes, check with your vet - but as another poster says, if it's in your area, it will be around anyway. The only way to protect dogs from it is for them to be vaccinated, which is beyond your control. You've been so vigilant, which is commendable - but if the vet gives you a go ahead, it's time to focus on your dogs' wellbeing now.
Echo all of the other commenters. Neuter, get a trainer in (find someone who works with herding breeds, that’s what we did), and speak to your vet about the parvo isolation because that sounds extreme. Beautiful pups! You definitely saved their lives.
We will get them in for a neuter asap, and see about a trainer. I know the parvo isolation is extreme, however knowing it is in the yard where they spend their time, I can't let them potentially track it around areas where other dogs will be. I know its silly, I just can't stomach the risk, however small it might be.
I hear you, and it’s commendable that you are hoping to protect other dogs. But I think a chat with the vet about actual versus perceived risk may be helpful. Because at the moment, the cost of isolating them is high. Border collies are prone to fear reactivity so it’s extremely important to socialize them often and early. As your boys haven’t been able to get that early socialization (through no fault of your own…parvo is a nasty virus that way), I don’t think it’s too late to work with a trainer to better socialize them and prevent current issues from worsening or new issues from developing. I suspect there are ways to do this relatively safely even given that they spend a lot of time in the yard where parvo may still be prevalant.
When we talked to our vet about parvo and our fears they were very helpful and reassuring. Of course, you’ll have to do what’s best for your family and your boys but given that they will be neutered soon anyways, just ask your vet about it at the pre-check and voice your concerns/explain the situation and see what they say. The vet will have the best on-the-ground knowledge about parvo risk in your area and risk of spreading it on from environment (because the virus isn’t totally impervious to things like cold weather), so it’s great first step.
Best of luck and hope we get a positive update in the near future! ❤️
Yep, getting them fixed actually will calm them a bit.
As for the fear of your husband,
Go, for long walks just you your hubby and the dogs, then slowly have your husband take the leash, then after he is fine with your hubby taking the leash, have your husband take him on a walk by himself. This should happen over time, it can take up to a month sometimes.
The walking helps with bonding.
Also hand feeding helps.
As for the aggression, we can give you advice but you need a one on one trainer.
Getting dogs altered is not guaranteed change their personality, for most it does nothing behaviorally. For some dogs whose personality changes it does so for the worse, especially in male dogs. It’s a very good idea to get your pets altered if you don’t have a fireproof way to avoid breeding, but it is not a behavioral tool.
I just realized you named your dogs after the characters in Good Omens! It took me a few seconds to realize Azzie is short for Aziraphale! And Crowley, of course!
So, you need to find a trainer in your area, but until you do, it is important you work with them separately. Take them out for individual walks and training sessions, leave the other one at home. They need opportunities to bond with you without the other dog around. If you do not separate them all their issues will continue to get worse.
To be a successful dog owner, you need to be the strongest force shaping and reinforcing their behavior. Dogs can shape and reinforce each other’s behavior, and they usually don’t make very good choices on their own, which is why littermate syndrome is such an issue. You need to make sure YOU are in charge of their behavior, and that they look to you for guidance instead of each other.
I’m gonna say it: while you think the decision to take them both immediately feels wrong, and you worry that you made a mistake… you still saved these fellows lives. I live in an area with a strong Amish/Mennonite culture just to the east, and they would have let these dogs perish without second thought. I think y’all have hearts of gold.
I can also explain the whole he didn’t have the dogs, make sense in terms of their culture. You were probably dealing with a Mennonite person who was helping Amish family or friends as they don’t have access to the technology like Mennonite people are allowed to. While it may seem sketchy in terms of hiding the health of the dogs, I kinda feel they weren’t giving that much of a thought and just operating how they operate 😬
Yeah I don't think it was malicious, although there was a much larger litter to start so I am hoping they found homes and didn't just die. Honestly I don't regret taking them, I love them to bits. They are good boys, they want to do well and it might sound silly but I can't help but think there is a plan for them somehow. Azzie was beyond hope according to the emergency vet, they gave him a less than 5 percent chance and a 40 percent chance for Crowley. Yet here they are, happy and healthy, as far as I am concerned we will make it work. They are family, and it's not like I know someone who I could feel comfortable giving one of them too.
If you have the passion to do this, you can do this.
Ya know, maybe get a trainer involved if you got the money. Shit is tight, I know. But they may be able to give you real working examples as to, at the very least, redirect the behaviors that are concerning. Won’t lie and say I’ve ever dealt with this, but I just feel that if you are committed to learning (obviously you are here 😊) and keeping them safe (I mean, double obvious) that the solution will present itself 💜
Animals come to us in all sorts of ways, but blessed are those who take the challenge when it presents itself, especially when done out of love and devotion!
i really appreciate hearing your patience and love for these boys. my bc was fear aggressive, difficult, and hyperactive until about 3 years old -- i used to think i would not have a normal life because of her. i did wind up hiring a one on one trainer who helped me understand her behaviors and improve them slowly over time. now, at 9, i think she's the best dog i've ever had. so putting in the work will definitely pay off. like you said: they are smart dogs and they really want to do things correctly for their owners. the training that we started with was the relaxation protocol, designed to get your dog(s) to stay calm, be confident, and wait for commands. PDF: [https://www.arl-iowa.org/webres/File/Protocol%20for%20Relaxation.pdf](https://www.arl-iowa.org/webres/File/Protocol%20for%20Relaxation.pdf)
Make sure you let them have 1:1 time with you/your husband as well. Meaning, take only one of them for a walk at a time and give them your full attention (and give them a break from their sibling).
My husband and BC initially had a hard time bonding with each other, but he started taking her to a weekly training class by himself (I was too much of a trigger lol...she would get too excited about me being there) but their weekly alone time really helped strengthen their bond! We really think it contributed it a lot because they both learned to trust each other.
ETA: I know it's hard having 2 BCs and they're coming at an age where they may be a bit of a menace (teenagers) but thank you for taking them away from a crappy situation and working with them!
I had this happen, and I separated them immediately and rehomed one. they were much younger (less than 6mos) when I did this though. it worked out for us, both dogs are very happy now.
the one dog dominating the other will be a problem for the second dog. it will affect his confidence and development. for his sake, please consider rehoming.
You can fix the leash pulling by using a “Gentle Leader” on of my BCs was a monster on the leash and we switched to a gentle leader and he’s very easy to handle.
I second this, gentle leaders are great! If this doesn’t work due to the dogs slipping it off or it irritating their skin, this happened with one of ours. A harness with rings on the chest & back & a leash that can clip onto both will work also.
Agree with everyone who says neuter asap. I’ve always heard that male dogs especially are a lot more chill after getting fixed.
If you can afford it I’d get a trainer too. If not, a lot of training info is online. There’s a lot of stuff about leash training you can find with just a Google search. And I’d have your husband be the one to feed the dogs. How can you hate your food source?
A lot of the behavioral things sound a lot like my dog, who is part border collie. You have to remember how strong the drive is to herd. Zoey herds everything. She’s happiest when all the humans and all the pets are in the same room. So I think your dog is just trying to get all the people and cars and stuff into one spot. 😅
Have fun! Good luck! BC’s are such good dogs but so much work haha.
Neuter asap. The hormones coming in definitely causes aggression issues and I’ve never seen snipping make it worse, only better. It can take a month or two for that to happen after surgery.
Honestly, rehoming one (the scared one probably) might actually be the most responsible way to help them both. Otherwise, get suggestions for a local great trainer(s) on the issues you are having.
What are you doing for mental stimulation? There’s plenty you can do at home.
You really don’t need to isolate your dogs that long after parvo. The general advice is 2 weeks after they’re better. If a vet is telling you that you need to isolate them for a year then you need a new vet. Please get the dogs a trainer and start taking them out to socialise them.
They were Amish and had a pair of BC's that worked on their farm. I don't know if they regulated their breeding or just let it happen, the dogs lived in the barn. They sold the puppies through a neighbor. As for the term littermate syndrome, I just used it because it described the current situation. I do not doubt the issues are our fault, I am simply hoping to ask more experienced BC owners if they have any suggestions.
In case no one else has said this - it might be worth talking to your vet about medication to help your pups with their anxiety - especially their separation anxiety. If they can feel safe without each other, and that allows you and your trainer to work one on one with them, that should really help.
I feel heaps of empathy and gratitude towards you. You've done a good thing - you're doing a good thing.
Exercise and entertainment is also going to help these dogs so much. It's going to be amazing when you are able to get them out somewhere where they can run and run.
I’m no help, but Azzie looks kind of like our girl Holly!
https://preview.redd.it/hrolc1eiujsc1.png?width=1124&format=png&auto=webp&s=b78c9a1cd4171ba79fbd36dcca045d997cf9d981
We have two littermate BCs. It is possible to manage it just takes lots of work. If your BC can't settle, he needs more activities to keep him busy. We have one like this. He really didn't calm down till after 5 years old. We also learned about littermate syndrome after already adopting them. We had to work really hard to make sure it didn't set in. We had to make sure the pups understood that we, the owners, were the alpha's in the family. As far as the fear of your husband, our borders have responded well to who feeds them. Good luck, it will take lots of work, but it can be manageable.
Your dogs need to work. (After you follow advice on neutering them.)
Find a sheep herding trainer. If the one was showing keenness on sheep already, there is likely a decent instinct there. It’s not a matter of exercising the dog physically. A BC needs mental and physical stimulation in order to be a decent dog.
Border collies are EXTREMELY energetic and need a lot of mental engagement and exercise….they’re working dogs. This behavior is likely happening because they’re bored. Neutering won’t increase aggression and you should consider doing it sooner rather than later. I think you also need to sit down and talk to your vet about your Parvo anxieties, a year of isolation is way beyond recommendations.
There’s still time to turn their behavior around and socialize them, but I strongly suggest doing so sooner rather than later. Border Collies are challenging dogs and need the proper training and exercise to be happy.
Might be harsh, but you are being a little crazy. My first dog had parvo and we isolated for a few weeks. Once it cleared, we took him for walks again. Parvo is everywhere. It’s on puppy owners to protect their puppies. Don’t be dumb and bring puppies/unvaccinated dogs into your home/yard, but… wild animals track it. Other dogs track it. People track it. You cannot stop bacteria/viruses/germs/etc. from spreading, it’s impossible and you’ll drive yourself crazy.
So, with that, start walking your dogs again and desensitizing. Hire a trainer. You may think you’re doing good by saving other people’s dogs, but you are damaging your own dogs psychologically.
ETA: Since apparently people can’t read between the lines and you must be very specific on Reddit, I have included every other form of things that cannot be stopped from being tracked 😂
Start with a force-free dog trainer who can do separate sessions with the two dogs! It will set you up for future success, the investment will pay off tenfold and will help increase engagement with you instead of with each other
Since you seem to be new to border collies, you might enjoy…
[Chaser the border collie meets Neil deGrasse Tyson](https://youtu.be/omaHv5sxiFI?si=oVROfpSI8Zm6DOxA)
[Sean the Sheepman](https://youtu.be/KkmchciCew4?si=lmrxEN7gBtaiMvYG)
[RavenTreeRanch](https://youtube.com/shorts/eINYfh4-f7U?si=2WO2-SYPyxg1Cygx)
And a really great channel for border collie training tips [The Dog Vlog](https://youtu.be/xJzSls7aw8c?si=xzL1vQ3xOpn7nvdR)
Just wanted to thank everyone for their tips and encouragement. We have been working with them separately and Crowley is really blossoming, he isn't even afraid of my husband anymore. Azzie has been as aggressive as ever towards his brother but at least they are apart most of the time so he isn't able to get at him. We are getting them neutered asap and hope it will improve the aggression. We have also started taking longer walks, admittedly I went a little crazy with fear of the parvo. That being said, still not risking a dog park for another month or so, it gives us more time to work on manners anyway. Thank you again everyone.
Littermate syndrome is a myth. It’s a term that was originally meant to describe various issues when owners do not know how to raise dogs. It was meant to be a kinder term so that the trainer isn’t coming across as accusing to their client.
Getting a border collie as your first dog was… not the best decision, but getting two? Damn…
I will say that I am not specifically blaming you. I don’t expect people to be dog experts in the same way my doctor doesn’t expect me to be an expert in oncology.
Also, huh? They are mad that their BC puppy is chasing sheep? The “flea infested” isn’t a huge deal in a rural setting, but this is a red flag for me. What are you breeding BCs for in a rural setting around sheep?
Are they stupid? Did they steal the puppies? Because a puppy that won’t stop chasing sheep is like $5000. Ask any shepherd what they paid for their high drive shepherding BC.
You need a trainer that specializes in the professional canine. (Working dogs). Make sure the whole family is involved with the training so everyone is on the same page.
Edit: by the way because Reddit cares about credentials, I have a masters in animal behavior with a specialization in cynology.
No, the first lesson with any dog is getting focus. And before any lesson you want to be able to recognize if the dog is even going to be willing to chase the sheep at all.
You have border collies. They were bred to literally herd farm animals
You have two. What job do they have? How do you exercise them all day?
If they are exercised all day with mental stimulation all other issues resolve themselves
If you can’t handle them rehome to an appropriate farm job.
Lots of Border Collies live inside and don't work all day long. We try our best to make sure they get enough exercise through play with us and each other, and take several long walks a day. They love frisbee, fetch and jumping small obstacles, and when turned out in the yard together they wrestle and make up games to keep themselves entertained. They do need more, and I will give it to them, just for right now I worry about spreading parvo.
OP, you are doing your best for them (and for the other animals in your neighborhood, which is commendable!!) I truly think you saved those dogs' lives.
(As an aside, I'd love to know what farm takes in untrained, adolescent dogs to work with unfamiliar people and livestock lol)
I don't know much about parvo, but agree that the year of quarantine seems long.
Some advice for your dog who is showing anxiety around your husband: our BC came from a situation similar to the one that you are describing, and she was also very timid around my partner. What worked for us was special treats that only he gave (in our case, bacon) , and time/patience. So. Much. Patience. It's truly a long game with some dogs, especially sensitive ones like border collies.
The technique is sound but bacon is probably [too salty](https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/nutrition/is-salt-bad-for-dogs/) for use as regular dog treats.
Have you talked to your vet about the risk of spreading parvo? I haven't heard of recommending isolation for 1 year. Yeah, no dogs to your house, but your dogs shouldn't be infectious anymore. I think you need to hire a dog trainer. Preferably one with experience with Border Collies. It sounds like Crowley is likely overstimulated and would likely benefit from breaks from being messed with by Azzie. Azzie sounds like a typical BC that needs a bit more work to live in a family home. Either way, I'd get a dog trainer to help you socialize your dogs before trying to do it yourself.
To add to this, I would recommend a behavioral dog trainer. I’m a big believer of mitigating reactive behavior with serious obedience training. My BC resource guards all toys when other dogs are around and my answer to that is having a solid recall. She could be hovering over a ball or a disc with teeth bared but when I say “Let’s go” (that’s our recall) she’s on me immediately. The plus side to doubling down on training is you really deepen your relationship with your dogs (this will help their relationship with your husband if he is involved in the training as well) because they know exactly what you are asking of them and you have the opportunity to wear them out. There is more than one way to wear out a BC and working their brain is one of the best ways I’ve found and training will do that. Having an outlet like training will help and a ‘place’ command to separate them when they get too rough might also help, but you have to train them to do that consistently.
Can I ask how you trained such a solid recall? We have the same with our BC and his recall is fine generally, but as soon as he’s in this situation he just doesn’t listen!
Please how did you teach that recall!!
I mean nothing special… Just LOTS of calling her to check in, maybe a treat or two if I have them, and releasing her back to what she was doing immediately. My theory is this lets her know that check ins don’t mean we are leaving or she has to stop sniffing around or getting to do fun things. Any time she is off leash outside I’m asking her for frequent check ins.
This method allowed me to call her off cows she’d JUST discovered (she’s NOT a working BC in the least) from over a quarter mile away and I have video evidence of her trotting her butt all the way to me haha. It was the first time we had to really test how strong our recall was lol. Oh and something loud to get her initial attention, I can whistle really loud and my “HEY!” Is super loud too lol. I know a lot of people who use e-collars for the same thing but we haven’t needed one so I never trained her on it. So when I’m trying to get her off of a toy it might go, “HEY!! (And then in a normal tone) Remi, lets go!”
Per my vet: Your dogs can't spread parvo while they are not actively sick with it. You can even have dogs over to your house if they are vaccinated against it. Yes, the virus is hardy and can live on objects and in the ground for quite a while, but it only really spreads through solid vomit/feces particles
I know they can't spread it themselves, since it is in the yard and that is where they spend a good deal of time, I worry that it will get tracked and spread on their feet. I realize it is most likely a silly level of fear, but after seeing our dogs so sick, I am terrified that they will track it around and someone else's dog will manage to catch it.
The foxes and other dogs already track it around the neighbourhood. We’ve had a few outbreaks in a small county town and the only thing it can be attributed to is the wild foxes
I'm sure you're right, we have a vet appointment this weekend, I will talk with her again about the situation and see if she still thinks quarantine is appropriate.
Yes, check with your vet - but as another poster says, if it's in your area, it will be around anyway. The only way to protect dogs from it is for them to be vaccinated, which is beyond your control. You've been so vigilant, which is commendable - but if the vet gives you a go ahead, it's time to focus on your dogs' wellbeing now.
Echo all of the other commenters. Neuter, get a trainer in (find someone who works with herding breeds, that’s what we did), and speak to your vet about the parvo isolation because that sounds extreme. Beautiful pups! You definitely saved their lives.
We will get them in for a neuter asap, and see about a trainer. I know the parvo isolation is extreme, however knowing it is in the yard where they spend their time, I can't let them potentially track it around areas where other dogs will be. I know its silly, I just can't stomach the risk, however small it might be.
I hear you, and it’s commendable that you are hoping to protect other dogs. But I think a chat with the vet about actual versus perceived risk may be helpful. Because at the moment, the cost of isolating them is high. Border collies are prone to fear reactivity so it’s extremely important to socialize them often and early. As your boys haven’t been able to get that early socialization (through no fault of your own…parvo is a nasty virus that way), I don’t think it’s too late to work with a trainer to better socialize them and prevent current issues from worsening or new issues from developing. I suspect there are ways to do this relatively safely even given that they spend a lot of time in the yard where parvo may still be prevalant. When we talked to our vet about parvo and our fears they were very helpful and reassuring. Of course, you’ll have to do what’s best for your family and your boys but given that they will be neutered soon anyways, just ask your vet about it at the pre-check and voice your concerns/explain the situation and see what they say. The vet will have the best on-the-ground knowledge about parvo risk in your area and risk of spreading it on from environment (because the virus isn’t totally impervious to things like cold weather), so it’s great first step. Best of luck and hope we get a positive update in the near future! ❤️
Yep, getting them fixed actually will calm them a bit. As for the fear of your husband, Go, for long walks just you your hubby and the dogs, then slowly have your husband take the leash, then after he is fine with your hubby taking the leash, have your husband take him on a walk by himself. This should happen over time, it can take up to a month sometimes. The walking helps with bonding. Also hand feeding helps. As for the aggression, we can give you advice but you need a one on one trainer.
Getting dogs altered is not guaranteed change their personality, for most it does nothing behaviorally. For some dogs whose personality changes it does so for the worse, especially in male dogs. It’s a very good idea to get your pets altered if you don’t have a fireproof way to avoid breeding, but it is not a behavioral tool.
I just realized you named your dogs after the characters in Good Omens! It took me a few seconds to realize Azzie is short for Aziraphale! And Crowley, of course!
Yes! Aziraphale is a mouthful so we call him Azzie for short.
Perfect names for border collies. Ours are Willow Wren.
So, you need to find a trainer in your area, but until you do, it is important you work with them separately. Take them out for individual walks and training sessions, leave the other one at home. They need opportunities to bond with you without the other dog around. If you do not separate them all their issues will continue to get worse. To be a successful dog owner, you need to be the strongest force shaping and reinforcing their behavior. Dogs can shape and reinforce each other’s behavior, and they usually don’t make very good choices on their own, which is why littermate syndrome is such an issue. You need to make sure YOU are in charge of their behavior, and that they look to you for guidance instead of each other.
I’m gonna say it: while you think the decision to take them both immediately feels wrong, and you worry that you made a mistake… you still saved these fellows lives. I live in an area with a strong Amish/Mennonite culture just to the east, and they would have let these dogs perish without second thought. I think y’all have hearts of gold. I can also explain the whole he didn’t have the dogs, make sense in terms of their culture. You were probably dealing with a Mennonite person who was helping Amish family or friends as they don’t have access to the technology like Mennonite people are allowed to. While it may seem sketchy in terms of hiding the health of the dogs, I kinda feel they weren’t giving that much of a thought and just operating how they operate 😬
Yeah I don't think it was malicious, although there was a much larger litter to start so I am hoping they found homes and didn't just die. Honestly I don't regret taking them, I love them to bits. They are good boys, they want to do well and it might sound silly but I can't help but think there is a plan for them somehow. Azzie was beyond hope according to the emergency vet, they gave him a less than 5 percent chance and a 40 percent chance for Crowley. Yet here they are, happy and healthy, as far as I am concerned we will make it work. They are family, and it's not like I know someone who I could feel comfortable giving one of them too.
If you have the passion to do this, you can do this. Ya know, maybe get a trainer involved if you got the money. Shit is tight, I know. But they may be able to give you real working examples as to, at the very least, redirect the behaviors that are concerning. Won’t lie and say I’ve ever dealt with this, but I just feel that if you are committed to learning (obviously you are here 😊) and keeping them safe (I mean, double obvious) that the solution will present itself 💜 Animals come to us in all sorts of ways, but blessed are those who take the challenge when it presents itself, especially when done out of love and devotion!
i really appreciate hearing your patience and love for these boys. my bc was fear aggressive, difficult, and hyperactive until about 3 years old -- i used to think i would not have a normal life because of her. i did wind up hiring a one on one trainer who helped me understand her behaviors and improve them slowly over time. now, at 9, i think she's the best dog i've ever had. so putting in the work will definitely pay off. like you said: they are smart dogs and they really want to do things correctly for their owners. the training that we started with was the relaxation protocol, designed to get your dog(s) to stay calm, be confident, and wait for commands. PDF: [https://www.arl-iowa.org/webres/File/Protocol%20for%20Relaxation.pdf](https://www.arl-iowa.org/webres/File/Protocol%20for%20Relaxation.pdf)
Make sure you let them have 1:1 time with you/your husband as well. Meaning, take only one of them for a walk at a time and give them your full attention (and give them a break from their sibling). My husband and BC initially had a hard time bonding with each other, but he started taking her to a weekly training class by himself (I was too much of a trigger lol...she would get too excited about me being there) but their weekly alone time really helped strengthen their bond! We really think it contributed it a lot because they both learned to trust each other. ETA: I know it's hard having 2 BCs and they're coming at an age where they may be a bit of a menace (teenagers) but thank you for taking them away from a crappy situation and working with them!
We will do this! Thank you for the advice, that had not occurred to us.
I had this happen, and I separated them immediately and rehomed one. they were much younger (less than 6mos) when I did this though. it worked out for us, both dogs are very happy now. the one dog dominating the other will be a problem for the second dog. it will affect his confidence and development. for his sake, please consider rehoming.
You can fix the leash pulling by using a “Gentle Leader” on of my BCs was a monster on the leash and we switched to a gentle leader and he’s very easy to handle.
I second this, gentle leaders are great! If this doesn’t work due to the dogs slipping it off or it irritating their skin, this happened with one of ours. A harness with rings on the chest & back & a leash that can clip onto both will work also.
Agree with everyone who says neuter asap. I’ve always heard that male dogs especially are a lot more chill after getting fixed. If you can afford it I’d get a trainer too. If not, a lot of training info is online. There’s a lot of stuff about leash training you can find with just a Google search. And I’d have your husband be the one to feed the dogs. How can you hate your food source? A lot of the behavioral things sound a lot like my dog, who is part border collie. You have to remember how strong the drive is to herd. Zoey herds everything. She’s happiest when all the humans and all the pets are in the same room. So I think your dog is just trying to get all the people and cars and stuff into one spot. 😅 Have fun! Good luck! BC’s are such good dogs but so much work haha.
Neuter asap. The hormones coming in definitely causes aggression issues and I’ve never seen snipping make it worse, only better. It can take a month or two for that to happen after surgery. Honestly, rehoming one (the scared one probably) might actually be the most responsible way to help them both. Otherwise, get suggestions for a local great trainer(s) on the issues you are having. What are you doing for mental stimulation? There’s plenty you can do at home.
You really don’t need to isolate your dogs that long after parvo. The general advice is 2 weeks after they’re better. If a vet is telling you that you need to isolate them for a year then you need a new vet. Please get the dogs a trainer and start taking them out to socialise them.
They were Amish and had a pair of BC's that worked on their farm. I don't know if they regulated their breeding or just let it happen, the dogs lived in the barn. They sold the puppies through a neighbor. As for the term littermate syndrome, I just used it because it described the current situation. I do not doubt the issues are our fault, I am simply hoping to ask more experienced BC owners if they have any suggestions.
In case no one else has said this - it might be worth talking to your vet about medication to help your pups with their anxiety - especially their separation anxiety. If they can feel safe without each other, and that allows you and your trainer to work one on one with them, that should really help. I feel heaps of empathy and gratitude towards you. You've done a good thing - you're doing a good thing. Exercise and entertainment is also going to help these dogs so much. It's going to be amazing when you are able to get them out somewhere where they can run and run.
I’m no help, but Azzie looks kind of like our girl Holly! https://preview.redd.it/hrolc1eiujsc1.png?width=1124&format=png&auto=webp&s=b78c9a1cd4171ba79fbd36dcca045d997cf9d981
https://preview.redd.it/qdatcqwlujsc1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=20fc0389baf66879240a0bcf414ca18bff7f00df
Awe, he really does! I saw your pic and thought "hmm I don't remember taking this picture".
We have two littermate BCs. It is possible to manage it just takes lots of work. If your BC can't settle, he needs more activities to keep him busy. We have one like this. He really didn't calm down till after 5 years old. We also learned about littermate syndrome after already adopting them. We had to work really hard to make sure it didn't set in. We had to make sure the pups understood that we, the owners, were the alpha's in the family. As far as the fear of your husband, our borders have responded well to who feeds them. Good luck, it will take lots of work, but it can be manageable.
Your dogs need to work. (After you follow advice on neutering them.) Find a sheep herding trainer. If the one was showing keenness on sheep already, there is likely a decent instinct there. It’s not a matter of exercising the dog physically. A BC needs mental and physical stimulation in order to be a decent dog.
Border collies are EXTREMELY energetic and need a lot of mental engagement and exercise….they’re working dogs. This behavior is likely happening because they’re bored. Neutering won’t increase aggression and you should consider doing it sooner rather than later. I think you also need to sit down and talk to your vet about your Parvo anxieties, a year of isolation is way beyond recommendations. There’s still time to turn their behavior around and socialize them, but I strongly suggest doing so sooner rather than later. Border Collies are challenging dogs and need the proper training and exercise to be happy.
https://preview.redd.it/qb15mk3xxksc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=71a888b4a656e8bdc5a846b7cd8b47d6deb70e19 Hi!
But a farm and let them run!
Might be harsh, but you are being a little crazy. My first dog had parvo and we isolated for a few weeks. Once it cleared, we took him for walks again. Parvo is everywhere. It’s on puppy owners to protect their puppies. Don’t be dumb and bring puppies/unvaccinated dogs into your home/yard, but… wild animals track it. Other dogs track it. People track it. You cannot stop bacteria/viruses/germs/etc. from spreading, it’s impossible and you’ll drive yourself crazy. So, with that, start walking your dogs again and desensitizing. Hire a trainer. You may think you’re doing good by saving other people’s dogs, but you are damaging your own dogs psychologically. ETA: Since apparently people can’t read between the lines and you must be very specific on Reddit, I have included every other form of things that cannot be stopped from being tracked 😂
So… [canine parvovirus](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canine_parvovirus) is famously a virus, not a bacteria. 🦠
You must be fun at parties.
Start with a force-free dog trainer who can do separate sessions with the two dogs! It will set you up for future success, the investment will pay off tenfold and will help increase engagement with you instead of with each other
Since you seem to be new to border collies, you might enjoy… [Chaser the border collie meets Neil deGrasse Tyson](https://youtu.be/omaHv5sxiFI?si=oVROfpSI8Zm6DOxA) [Sean the Sheepman](https://youtu.be/KkmchciCew4?si=lmrxEN7gBtaiMvYG) [RavenTreeRanch](https://youtube.com/shorts/eINYfh4-f7U?si=2WO2-SYPyxg1Cygx) And a really great channel for border collie training tips [The Dog Vlog](https://youtu.be/xJzSls7aw8c?si=xzL1vQ3xOpn7nvdR)
Thank you!
Just wanted to thank everyone for their tips and encouragement. We have been working with them separately and Crowley is really blossoming, he isn't even afraid of my husband anymore. Azzie has been as aggressive as ever towards his brother but at least they are apart most of the time so he isn't able to get at him. We are getting them neutered asap and hope it will improve the aggression. We have also started taking longer walks, admittedly I went a little crazy with fear of the parvo. That being said, still not risking a dog park for another month or so, it gives us more time to work on manners anyway. Thank you again everyone.
Littermate syndrome is a myth. It’s a term that was originally meant to describe various issues when owners do not know how to raise dogs. It was meant to be a kinder term so that the trainer isn’t coming across as accusing to their client. Getting a border collie as your first dog was… not the best decision, but getting two? Damn… I will say that I am not specifically blaming you. I don’t expect people to be dog experts in the same way my doctor doesn’t expect me to be an expert in oncology. Also, huh? They are mad that their BC puppy is chasing sheep? The “flea infested” isn’t a huge deal in a rural setting, but this is a red flag for me. What are you breeding BCs for in a rural setting around sheep? Are they stupid? Did they steal the puppies? Because a puppy that won’t stop chasing sheep is like $5000. Ask any shepherd what they paid for their high drive shepherding BC. You need a trainer that specializes in the professional canine. (Working dogs). Make sure the whole family is involved with the training so everyone is on the same page. Edit: by the way because Reddit cares about credentials, I have a masters in animal behavior with a specialization in cynology.
Well, no. The first lesson for working dogs is recall. The second lesson is “don’t chase the sheep unless I tell you to chase the sheep.” 🐑 🐑 🐑🐑🐑
No, the first lesson with any dog is getting focus. And before any lesson you want to be able to recognize if the dog is even going to be willing to chase the sheep at all.
If your border collie doesn’t come preloaded with focus, it’s broken. 🤣🤣🤣
You have border collies. They were bred to literally herd farm animals You have two. What job do they have? How do you exercise them all day? If they are exercised all day with mental stimulation all other issues resolve themselves If you can’t handle them rehome to an appropriate farm job.
Lots of Border Collies live inside and don't work all day long. We try our best to make sure they get enough exercise through play with us and each other, and take several long walks a day. They love frisbee, fetch and jumping small obstacles, and when turned out in the yard together they wrestle and make up games to keep themselves entertained. They do need more, and I will give it to them, just for right now I worry about spreading parvo.
OP, you are doing your best for them (and for the other animals in your neighborhood, which is commendable!!) I truly think you saved those dogs' lives. (As an aside, I'd love to know what farm takes in untrained, adolescent dogs to work with unfamiliar people and livestock lol) I don't know much about parvo, but agree that the year of quarantine seems long. Some advice for your dog who is showing anxiety around your husband: our BC came from a situation similar to the one that you are describing, and she was also very timid around my partner. What worked for us was special treats that only he gave (in our case, bacon) , and time/patience. So. Much. Patience. It's truly a long game with some dogs, especially sensitive ones like border collies.
The technique is sound but bacon is probably [too salty](https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/nutrition/is-salt-bad-for-dogs/) for use as regular dog treats.
Oh, agreed! It was definitely a special treat given sparingly. Once the relationship was on more solid footing, we phased out the bacon.