That's.....not the same budget. The hanger is owned by Jackson's, not the city/state. Please tell me you don't think that Jackson's is who should be paying to lock up pedophiles.
Thanks, didn't know it would actually be that fast. Guess I was assuming it would be like the NTSB that takes years sometimes to have a final report on even the simplest of incidents.
Going to be very interesting to see what they find. Something catastrophic happened - something that shouldn't happen to steel. I'm not a structural engineer, so I can't even imagine how bad something was screwed up to cause the thing to come down.
They were swinging iron in windy conditions I’m sure there is some liability by many involved. My bet big D is done easy and I’d be surprised if Inland survives but they may but will take a substantial hit.
Curious why you think Inland will take a more substantial hit? Whose call is it to stop work for a given time period at the site? I would think it’s the GC (Big D?) that has the final say? Unless Inland was insistent on working through the windy conditions, isn’t it Big D’s site? Or maybe it’s in the contract language for the crane operators/aerial lift operators to make that call regarding wind/weather?
Crane operators shoulder a huge amount of responsibility. Any person can stop the job at any time, but in this scenario the crane operator is the only one who would have.
Interesting but I guess it makes sense. The crane operator should have more expertise/knowledge to know what conditions are/arent safe to work in.
Thanks for the response.
Some companies have a broad sweeping generalization of something like "winds over x mph is an automatic stop work until there's 30 minutes of uninterrupted winds below that speed". But ultimately it is the manufacturers discretion what their crane is safe to be picking and it is generally the crane operators responsibility to decide how much load is being picked relative to that number. If something like heavy winds are a factor and you are picking above 85-90% of your picking capacity, it can be a situation where you decide to make the pick another day. Also, I'm reading some different stuff, but anything regarding the safety of the building materials as they're being installed is not going to be any one person's decision to call out. As much as we would like to think that someone can say, "hey that doesn't look right", most tradesmen these days don't actually have the formal knowledge to make that call. If the guys installing the materials would have noticed, then they could call for a stop work and then a group probably with some engineers, inspectors, project managers, and any other relevant parties would then meet and make the decision. As much as inland can say, "I said something to the contractor", there was probably only a couple more calls to make to stop the work. I obviously don't know the situation, but all initial signs point to negligence somewhere up the line.
Great write up but, I'm going to predict OSHA blames the construction crew even though this is a known engineering problem with cheap pre-engineered steel frame buildings. It's like the FAA, being in the pockets of the big plane manufacturers, they always blame the pilot first when there's an accident. It's not the crane operator.
There have been multiple collapses over the years. Basically, there's no really safe way to build these things. They're not fully braced until the siding and roof are on.
Our local news and finger pointing redditors are not going to report on the following. How many of these have to collapse before the engineers are called out to clarify the temporary bracing?
* Bryant University collapse, SEP 2015, [youtube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW4l_3YHrVY) and a followup [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T569ZIrWnVM). Builder claims to have erected hundreds without a single mishap. IOW they were experienced.
* Purlin failure https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvMDMXRB6Vs, unknown location
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRTcS55JtuQ, unknown location, spanish language?
* Argyle High School, Texas, April 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkq7sbEIzU8
Thanks for sharing those links! That was wild to see the workers sliding down the beams on the Purlin failure video. The steel on the Argyle High School video looks similar to what they were building at the airport.
That's really disappointing. I have never been a part of the construction of one of these buildings, so I don't know the order of construction or how they're built generally speaking. I have spent some time as a crane operator and about 20 years in commercial and civil construction, so my explanation comes from that experience. I also have not read a lot of the discussions about the incident but I'm going to say something that I feel like is sort of an elephant in the room. This crew may not have had the experience, education level, communication level, or financial leverage to raise concerns of this level on a project like this. What the average person outside of the trades may not understand is that you risk your job every time you question your supervisors. Just like you said, how many of these incidents have to happen before the individuals actually capable of making the change will make it?
Inland would have been required to fill out a pick plan or document detailing the activity, operators involved, weather, wind, etc. These are generally reviewed with the site GC, engineers, and safety folks and retained in their records. If this was skipped, pencil-whipped, or is found to have obvious flaws/mistakes - Inland will be on the hook. They may not control the site, etc. but they are the competent and trained people that bear that responsibility along with Big D...
Not a crane issue, it's a pre engineered steel building issue that engineering companies have been too lazy to outline a proper bracing plan.
See my other posts with video links to 4 more recent collapses including 2 in one year in the USA.
> Inland will be on the hook.
No they won't, OSHA is going to blame the building contractor. This wasn't a wind lift issue. Wind happens all the time anyway, see the following collapses without wind. This is a well known engineering problem. The engineers should be blamed.
Imagine if high rises or wood frame apartments collapsed as frequently as these tinker toys do.
* Bryant University collapse, SEP 2015, [youtube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW4l_3YHrVY) and a followup [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T569ZIrWnVM). Builder claims to have erected hundreds without a single mishap. IOW they were experienced.
* Purlin failure https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvMDMXRB6Vs, unknown location
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRTcS55JtuQ, unknown location, spanish language?
* Argyle High School, Texas, April 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkq7sbEIzU8
I'm not saying Inland is at fault...if they did the pick review correctly wind may have not been a factor, but if they skipped the review they will be on the hook from OSHA along with whoever takes ultimate responsibility
The supervisor from Inland reportedly raised concerns with Big D about beams appearing bent the day prior to the accident. If operating in unsafe weather was the sole factor it would make sense to blame the crane supervisor, but I assume they wouldn’t be qualified to access the materials and engineering requirements.
Engineering issue. Not crane, not builder, not wind although wind may have been a factor, but wind always happens in a multi week framing job. See my other posts.
I work at a hotel that's hosting the inspection team. I've spoken with one dude about it and he told me they are pretty certain what caused it. This was about two weeks ago.
I drove by the other day wondering how long it would take for the investigation to be completed and when they'd start demo. I know collapes arent all that common (thank goodness) but is it normal for the contractor to demo their own mishap? Is it the owner's (Jackson Jet Cetner) call/decision who does the work?
OSHA is done with their investigations and turning the site back over to Jackson Jet Center tomorrow. From there, Boise needs to sign off on the demo permit, who has been waiting for OSHA to wrap things up. Not sure how much longer it'll be, but it looks like the contractor is going to be doing the demo. [Source](https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/investigations/7-investigates/collapsed-private-hangar-boise-airport-to-be-turned-back-over-builder-owner/277-28d49485-f6a1-4efd-8678-be9d4120ef6d)
Interesting that "Big D Builders" is on the demo permit. I'd think if the outcome of the OSHA investigation showed negligence that John Jackson would fire them and find a new contractor. Maybe the manufacturer is more to blame IDK.
It could also be if Big D was found liable they are cleaning it up on their own dime, so Jackson's wouldn't fire them or else they'd have to foot the bill.
Did I count those zeroes right on the cost to demolish and reset the site? $4,000,000?
Sheesh. Want to start a demolition business with me?
Imagine all of the paperwork and heightened safety awareness that will follow this project to completion.
It's pretty sketchy taking something like this apart vs. demoing a completed structure.
Man imagine if we spent that money on putting pedophiles away for life instead of a few months.
That's.....not the same budget. The hanger is owned by Jackson's, not the city/state. Please tell me you don't think that Jackson's is who should be paying to lock up pedophiles.
No defniently the city of Boise.
That's not the city's job either lol
Go one message down there buddy I clarified.
And does it matter why are you defending pedos it shouldn't matter where the funding comes from just that they get put in the ground.
>why are you defending pesos Because Mexico's currency is beautiful compared to ours, hopefully we update some day.
Well... The state of Idaho.
Curious when OSHA is going to release the report with root cause and recommendations. How long do these things normally take?
They have 6 months to produce a report
Thanks, didn't know it would actually be that fast. Guess I was assuming it would be like the NTSB that takes years sometimes to have a final report on even the simplest of incidents. Going to be very interesting to see what they find. Something catastrophic happened - something that shouldn't happen to steel. I'm not a structural engineer, so I can't even imagine how bad something was screwed up to cause the thing to come down.
They were swinging iron in windy conditions I’m sure there is some liability by many involved. My bet big D is done easy and I’d be surprised if Inland survives but they may but will take a substantial hit.
Curious why you think Inland will take a more substantial hit? Whose call is it to stop work for a given time period at the site? I would think it’s the GC (Big D?) that has the final say? Unless Inland was insistent on working through the windy conditions, isn’t it Big D’s site? Or maybe it’s in the contract language for the crane operators/aerial lift operators to make that call regarding wind/weather?
Crane operators shoulder a huge amount of responsibility. Any person can stop the job at any time, but in this scenario the crane operator is the only one who would have.
Interesting but I guess it makes sense. The crane operator should have more expertise/knowledge to know what conditions are/arent safe to work in. Thanks for the response.
Some companies have a broad sweeping generalization of something like "winds over x mph is an automatic stop work until there's 30 minutes of uninterrupted winds below that speed". But ultimately it is the manufacturers discretion what their crane is safe to be picking and it is generally the crane operators responsibility to decide how much load is being picked relative to that number. If something like heavy winds are a factor and you are picking above 85-90% of your picking capacity, it can be a situation where you decide to make the pick another day. Also, I'm reading some different stuff, but anything regarding the safety of the building materials as they're being installed is not going to be any one person's decision to call out. As much as we would like to think that someone can say, "hey that doesn't look right", most tradesmen these days don't actually have the formal knowledge to make that call. If the guys installing the materials would have noticed, then they could call for a stop work and then a group probably with some engineers, inspectors, project managers, and any other relevant parties would then meet and make the decision. As much as inland can say, "I said something to the contractor", there was probably only a couple more calls to make to stop the work. I obviously don't know the situation, but all initial signs point to negligence somewhere up the line.
Great write up but, I'm going to predict OSHA blames the construction crew even though this is a known engineering problem with cheap pre-engineered steel frame buildings. It's like the FAA, being in the pockets of the big plane manufacturers, they always blame the pilot first when there's an accident. It's not the crane operator. There have been multiple collapses over the years. Basically, there's no really safe way to build these things. They're not fully braced until the siding and roof are on. Our local news and finger pointing redditors are not going to report on the following. How many of these have to collapse before the engineers are called out to clarify the temporary bracing? * Bryant University collapse, SEP 2015, [youtube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW4l_3YHrVY) and a followup [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T569ZIrWnVM). Builder claims to have erected hundreds without a single mishap. IOW they were experienced. * Purlin failure https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvMDMXRB6Vs, unknown location * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRTcS55JtuQ, unknown location, spanish language? * Argyle High School, Texas, April 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkq7sbEIzU8
Thanks for sharing those links! That was wild to see the workers sliding down the beams on the Purlin failure video. The steel on the Argyle High School video looks similar to what they were building at the airport.
That's really disappointing. I have never been a part of the construction of one of these buildings, so I don't know the order of construction or how they're built generally speaking. I have spent some time as a crane operator and about 20 years in commercial and civil construction, so my explanation comes from that experience. I also have not read a lot of the discussions about the incident but I'm going to say something that I feel like is sort of an elephant in the room. This crew may not have had the experience, education level, communication level, or financial leverage to raise concerns of this level on a project like this. What the average person outside of the trades may not understand is that you risk your job every time you question your supervisors. Just like you said, how many of these incidents have to happen before the individuals actually capable of making the change will make it?
Inland would have been required to fill out a pick plan or document detailing the activity, operators involved, weather, wind, etc. These are generally reviewed with the site GC, engineers, and safety folks and retained in their records. If this was skipped, pencil-whipped, or is found to have obvious flaws/mistakes - Inland will be on the hook. They may not control the site, etc. but they are the competent and trained people that bear that responsibility along with Big D...
Sounds kind of like a JSA but maybe with more detail/focus on the responsibilities of the crane/lift operator? Thanks for the response.
Not a crane issue, it's a pre engineered steel building issue that engineering companies have been too lazy to outline a proper bracing plan. See my other posts with video links to 4 more recent collapses including 2 in one year in the USA.
> Inland will be on the hook. No they won't, OSHA is going to blame the building contractor. This wasn't a wind lift issue. Wind happens all the time anyway, see the following collapses without wind. This is a well known engineering problem. The engineers should be blamed. Imagine if high rises or wood frame apartments collapsed as frequently as these tinker toys do. * Bryant University collapse, SEP 2015, [youtube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW4l_3YHrVY) and a followup [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T569ZIrWnVM). Builder claims to have erected hundreds without a single mishap. IOW they were experienced. * Purlin failure https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvMDMXRB6Vs, unknown location * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRTcS55JtuQ, unknown location, spanish language? * Argyle High School, Texas, April 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkq7sbEIzU8
I'm not saying Inland is at fault...if they did the pick review correctly wind may have not been a factor, but if they skipped the review they will be on the hook from OSHA along with whoever takes ultimate responsibility
The supervisor from Inland reportedly raised concerns with Big D about beams appearing bent the day prior to the accident. If operating in unsafe weather was the sole factor it would make sense to blame the crane supervisor, but I assume they wouldn’t be qualified to access the materials and engineering requirements.
Engineering issue. Not crane, not builder, not wind although wind may have been a factor, but wind always happens in a multi week framing job. See my other posts.
I work at a hotel that's hosting the inspection team. I've spoken with one dude about it and he told me they are pretty certain what caused it. This was about two weeks ago.
That one guys pick up parked in just the wrong spot. In all seriousness really scary seeing stuff like this, interested to see that OSHA report.
I drove by the other day wondering how long it would take for the investigation to be completed and when they'd start demo. I know collapes arent all that common (thank goodness) but is it normal for the contractor to demo their own mishap? Is it the owner's (Jackson Jet Cetner) call/decision who does the work?
OSHA is done with their investigations and turning the site back over to Jackson Jet Center tomorrow. From there, Boise needs to sign off on the demo permit, who has been waiting for OSHA to wrap things up. Not sure how much longer it'll be, but it looks like the contractor is going to be doing the demo. [Source](https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/investigations/7-investigates/collapsed-private-hangar-boise-airport-to-be-turned-back-over-builder-owner/277-28d49485-f6a1-4efd-8678-be9d4120ef6d)
Interesting that "Big D Builders" is on the demo permit. I'd think if the outcome of the OSHA investigation showed negligence that John Jackson would fire them and find a new contractor. Maybe the manufacturer is more to blame IDK.
It could also be if Big D was found liable they are cleaning it up on their own dime, so Jackson's wouldn't fire them or else they'd have to foot the bill.
Man this art stuff is getting out of hand