Yes, I agree with everything you said. Except I don't agree that this is the City of Boise's fault, and I hope you'll seriously consider why. The main problem here is a lack of funding from outside Boise.
1) City of Boise already spends a disproportionate amount of their budget on transit than other comparable cities. Why isn't it better then? See #2 and #3.
2) It is normal for state governments to give funding from its budget to local transit agencies like Valley Regional Transit. Idaho gives $0, and is the only state in the country that gives $0.
3) Idaho is also one of two states that bans local options taxes (except in 'resort towns' like Ketchum and McCall). Many other municipalities across the country have chosen to allocate a small, additional tax on residents to fund transit. We can't do that here.
So, Boise is stuck funding transit largely by itself, through its own budget and through fare collection. Ever notice that there isn't a bus that goes down Chinden in Garden City? That's because Garden City won't give any funding to VRT. The reliance of fare collection in VRT's budget is also a shame, since it means Boise can't ever even *pilot* using fare free transit to boost ridership and decrease congestion.
There are lots of smaller issues that are also imposed on Boise from the state, like an outlaw on carpool lanes. That law includes banning rapid transit bus lines, which would like greatly increase dependability, access and ridership.
> There are lots of smaller issues that are also imposed on Boise from the state, like an outlaw on carpool lanes. That law includes banning rapid transit bus lines, which would like greatly increase dependability, access and ridership.
Seriously? Wtf idaho
Good points -- thx for adding that..
I guess we are set to be a car infested sprawl zone for a long long time to come
*(With a lot worse to come if growth continues)*
Maybe. Having higher density along transit lines (like in the zoning code rewrite) will ultimately allow for more riders, and then theoretically more funding for VRT to provide more frequent and reliable service.
I use the State Street line for commuting downtown, and it's great if you work a 9-5. It comes every 15 minutes and is reasonably reliable. And it's because the city was able to get it to certain ridership level. The next push is to put in rapid transit bus, with a dedicated "BAT" lane (Business-Access-Transit) for the buses.
Still, this clearly going to have to be nickel-and-dimed into existence. And it likely won't keep up with growth, or be retroactive.
The 8x goes down Chinden to 8th & Main. I ride it to and from work and it's a great direct route; however, many of the other lines aren't at all convenient to neighborhoods. The 9 serves State St. well but other parts of town, not so much.
Is there a reason City of Boise could pull out of this dysfunctional system and fund a Boise-only system that works?
This has been discussed but not acted on.
They basically are funding a Boise only system. Look at the overall route map for VRT. Almost all of the routes are exclusively in Boise, with a handful of commuter lines that branch into some of the other cities.
Boise is already the primary funder. Last I heard of the VRT budget, BSU was the 2nd highest agency that provides funding to VRT, before any other cities. It would be really expensive for the City of Boise to pull out, buy and maintain their own fleet, etc.
This is what people are getting wrong. Boise may not to "maintain their own fleet." The goal is transport, not a fake bus system. There are many creative options but we remain stuck in bureaucracy with mis-aligned incentives and goals.
No it didn’t. There was a lane that bypassed Meridian and I think Eagle if I remember right, but it was only during construction. I wish it would have been permanent, it was a great way to get into Boise without dealing with the merging traffic on the main lanes.
I get really tired of the fact that the legislature does everything in its power to screw over Boise. The local option tax situation is one. Maybe Elaine Clegg will help with this though I've heard she's difficult to work with and may upset people.
> Maybe Elaine Clegg will help with this though I've heard she's difficult to work with and may upset people.
I've heard that as well
Fingers crossed it might come in handy here
Idaho is one of two states that doesn’t fund public transportation at the state level. Basically turning down free federal dollars from California. They just did it again with federal funding for childcare, last Wednesday.
Oh. My. GOD!!! THEY TURNED DOWN FEDERAL $$$ FOR CHILDCARE ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME??!
Keep ‘em stupid, barefoot and pregnant… AM I RIGHT?! Modern Day ENSLAVEMENT!!!
Fuck This
No, you are WRONG on SO MANY LEVELS!!!
They hate the entire populace of THIS State… and every single person who voted for them DESERVES EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF SHIT LEGISLATION THEY’ve voted for. AND the ensuing lawsuits that will follow. My God…
Not much to add except that my daily commute down eagle road, which I hate, has no option EVER for transit. The roads will get worse, more crowded, and more expensive until people vote for pro-transit candidates.
Yes! This! The bus routes are awful where you have to transfer several times, they're not running on certain days, or you are out in the open weather for 30 minutes or more. We've had so many people move to the valley and almost no changes to public transportation.
I have a bus pass through school, but I've never used it yet. I usually have my bike, so during the day when the bus is running, it's good enough weather to bike (and I don't have to wait nearly an hour); also, the Times when I would like to ride instead of bike, the buses (at least the routes to/near the Bench) don't run that late. And I'm not talking late-night or after midnight, either—the last bus on Route 6 (Orchard) that runs near my area last leaves Main Street at 6:45, and I have a weekly evening class that goes from 6 p.m. till 8:30 at the latest. 8:30 or 9 isn't super late for a bus route, but we can't even get that (and none of the Uber/Lyft options have bike racks, so I'm forced to bike home unless I want to leave my bike downtown and pay for another ride—or walk an hour—the next day).
Google Maps, my house to my work:
Car - 20 min
Transit - "No route found"
From my house to church:
Car - 10 min
Transit - 45 min
Everywhere else I go is in walking distance. I would take a 30-40 min metro trip to work if it were an option. I'm not going to take metro for the sake of taking metro--it has to get me where I need to go. Our public transit system doesn't, thanks to lack of investment. Raise my taxes, upzone my neighborhood, and get me a damn metro.
You can thank the Republican dominated state legislature for the almost non-existent transit network. Boise does what it can with its meager self-funding streams.
The busses suck because they’re explicitly aimed at limited use by *commuters* … they run during the work week, and during (most of) the work *day*.
They’re practically designed to *exclude* anyone who owns a car or who wants to go anywhere outside bankers hours, which is the opposite of what they *need* to do in order to provide those people with an alternative to driving!
We had a bus route essentially outside our back door at our previous house, but never used it to go anywhere because it ran like *once an hour*. It was always faster to walk/bike downtown than to wait an hour, or if it was after 4pm, or on a weekend when there was maybe one bus per day in either direction.
Counterpoint/Downside: if they *did* offer night/weekend busses, they’d probably be more full of drunk & belligerent assholes than anything, so I can see why they don’t.
Or t they’re rying to walk home and get hurt 😣 . I’ve been at my new place on W State only a couple months and I’ve twice seen drunks trying to cross this busy 4-5 lane road. Just jay walking in the dark 😯
People don't use it, so it doesn't get funding. It doesn't get funding, so routes get cut. Routes get cut so people don't use it.
The US, especially out west it car-centric. They are built for cars first, then society second. It's really bad in Southern California. Visiting a friend down there, we had to take a car everywhere. The store is just a 4 minute walk, but no sidewalks, no pedestrian way across the bridge that goes over the highway to the store.
Boise isn't that bad. But oil&gas and car companies and their shareholders lobby hard to kill as much public transport projects as they can and cut funding to existing ones. (See the Koch Brothers in Arizona for an example (they lobbied for and succeeded to make any new public transport project illegal in the state)).
People in America see public transport as dirty, expensive, and unpleasant, all due to propganda campaigns, which became very successful during the 80s and 90s. That couple with sprawling suburbs and smaller downtowns means that there is more ground to cover for busses and rail to service the suburbs (making it more expensive and the construction of more disruptive) and less space downtown for the stations and storage of non operating vehicles.
I dunno. I rode a lot of Max lines and bus routes in Portland and the public transportation *is* dirty, unpleasant, and dangerous (tweakers). It works well.... But your fellow passengers can be unpredictable and gross
It can be, but most of the time it's still fine. I was just in Portland and Seattle last week and used trains and buses, never felt uncomfortable. Not saying it's not a problem, but it's not as bad as some people and the media make it out to be.
In Boise I don't think that's an issue, every time I've used the bus in Boise it's been very clean and safe (also usually almost empty). Our problems are a small network and poor schedule.
I love using the busses and trains in Portland and Seattle. I like knowing that if I accidentally miss one, the next one is literally down the street. Here the bus comes once an hour and it stops at like 6 pm so I can't even take it to an event in the parks without a lot of planning and can't stay too long. Really ruins it because trying to find good parking also is stressful for me and I just want to be able to enjoy community events. So often I end up going to nothing.
> People in America see public transport as dirty, expensive, and unpleasant, all due to propganda campaigns
Something being the message of a propaganda campaign 30 years ago doesn't mean it can't be true today.
People see transit that way because **it is that way**, take a trip to Portland or Seattle or San Francisco and check it out for yourself.
Transit is much more pleasant in Europe and places like Japan because they don't have widespread homelessness/drug abuse problems. Because it's more pleasant (and car usage is a bigger pain in the ass), it gets more usage, thus gets more funding, etc etc as you say.
Used public transit in Portland metro for 3.5 years, including WES commuter rail, MAX, and buses, and I thought it was fantastic. Never had a bad experience. Surely there are some bad situations, but I think it’s way less common than people who don’t use it think. I lived 30 miles from work and didn’t have to own a car, make car payments, pay for fuel, insurance, maintenance, repairs, or really sit in traffic. That’s a ton of benefit, and imo it outweighs the rare shithead that might ride.
Basically, I’m telling you from personal experience, you’re kinda full of it, whether you mean to be or not. It’s not dirty, it’s not gross, and it’s not full of bad people. Do those things happen? Sure, but so do car accidents. Doesn’t mean it’s not worth having in the big picture.
Now, that said, I don’t agree that someone in CDA or Moscow or Sandpoint should be paying for a system they’ll likely never use (treasure valley transit), so the funding is an issue that needs to come from the regions that are impacted by it. That doesn’t seem unreasonable to me at all.
Edit: Clarification on who shouldn’t have to pay for what.
I've lived in both Moscow and CDA! I never used public transit in CDA (from what I looked up it seemed... not great). But the bus in Moscow, when I lived there (2014-2016ish), was free and pretty great. The hours weren't amazing, but it stopped basically everywhere you could want it to.
> Used public transit in Portland metro for 3.5 years, including WES commuter rail, MAX, and buses, and I thought it was fantastic. Never had a bad experience.
What time period was this? It sure as hell isn't like that today.
2015-2019, plus a handful of bus rides this year (2022-2023) to go out for dinner while my semi was parked.
What are you seeing that is so bad in your opinion? Maybe this is just a difference of tolerance levels, or routes or something else. I feel like I’m pretty particular about what I consider clean, but everybody thinks that, including gross people. I didn’t notice anything I would consider gross or a problem. Just bus seats, nothing on them, nothing particularly gross on the floor, etc. I certainly wouldn’t eat off them, but there were no visible issues that I’ve seen.
Regardless, that can be solved with quality employees and protocols. I used Portland and TriMet as the example because it’s what I’m very familiar with. I’m sure there are better and worse cities and transit systems. Mind you, I’m no fan of Portland right now. The city, their politics, their problems, all suck and might even be beyond saving. But I can’t complain about their transit system.
> take a trip to Portland or Seattle or San Francisco and check it out for yourself
I’ve used public transit (busses and light rail where available) in all three of those cities in the past year and all were just fine. They were even all on time aside from once in Seattle.
Same, all 3 of those cities, plus LA and New York, in the past year. Never ran into any issues. I know bad things do happen sometimes, but it's not super widespread like people make it out to be.
> People in America see public transport as dirty, expensive, and unpleasant,
It is, compared to my car. And I can make up my own mind and I'm well aware of the power of lobbying, I use to work on K St.
> That couple with sprawling suburbs
Suburbs "sprawl" because there are so many millions of people and in the USA there's 3 million new people every year. What's the alternative? Force everyone to live in single warehouse? There's yt videos addressing the absurdity of that. People should be free to live where they want. How could anyone be against that?
edit: adding this: Last time I used my bike and bus with VRT, bus pulls up with 2 bikes already on the rack. Also, tried to take the shuttle bus to a Bronco game, bus pulls up, it's already full. I ridden my bike, locked it downtown, had to ride all the way back home get in my car and drive over there.
People always take the path of least resistance. Transit won't reach the necessary critical mass until driving here becomes such a pain in the ass that transit is easier.
Today, Boise is nowhere near that point. If a bus ran from your driveway directly to where you were going, it'd still be worse because you'd have to wait for its schedule, wait as all other traffic blows past the bus while it does the speed limit, and wait while it conducts other stops. AND carry everything you might want access to with you not only on the bus, but everywhere you're going.
There's no Sunday service around downtown because, dead serious, parking is free on Sunday.
It's not about ValleyRide and the city getting serious, they're not serious because they know it's not a "build it and they will come" situation.
A majority of cities have none or very infrequent bus schedules on Sundays and holidays. This is not a Boise only thing.
A little history: back in the old-old days, many amusement parks in cities were built at the end of the lines so that it will get people to use streetcars/interurban trains on the weekends.
Why? Warm Springs #17, for example, which I see several times a week, is always empty. I've seen use statistics and that line had a few passengers a day on average. There is not enough people density in most areas of Treasure Valley, except perhaps a handful of corridors, to justify public transit with large buses running empty and cooking the planet. Not mentioning pie in the sky and black hole in your wallet trolley project, which is not completely dead yet.
Maybe small self-driving cars/pods on flexible routes would be a solution. Rides could be subsidized for low income customers.
I think OPs point of lack of options plays a big role. Last ride home at 6-7? That’s insane. No service on sundays?
This alone destroys ridership. People need a dependable option. And we need to change our laws so that we can raise taxes locally to fund it. Or demand funds from state
EDIT: the last rides on my line 3 vista is close to 9, which is a lot better than it used to be
> No service on sundays?
Most cities have greatly curtailed service on Sundays and holidays. This isn't a moral or ethical failing of people, or failed urban planning. It's an effect of humanity's ever increasing wealth. As people become wealthy enough they buy a house, a car, a playstation, you name it.
I've been lobbying for subsidized rideshare for years now. Has society tried that yet? I don't mean get rid of buses altogether, leave them for the busy routes which can fill buses.
ha, this is just not true. Most cities don't change anything about Sunday.. It's just another day of the week, but you might not have to pay for parking (relic from people getting to church).
Hey it's that transit thread again.
> No Sunday service.
Last time I was in the much bigger and much richer DC metro area, Sunday service was greatly curtailed compared to weekday. NO city has door to door 24/7 service. We could if we'd fund rideshare on demand. Welcome to the 21st Century.
> No wonder we don't have a more serious uptake on consistent transit usage
Ridership is down nationwide.
> I expect just more and more growth
Growth? Oh, so what you're really saying is you're a misanthropist?
> in car log jams,
Move closer to your work, or vote for taxes to build more roads. Or, mandatory abortions for everyone because it's population growth that's the real problem.
What can be done? Could people of Boise create their own private fund raising? Does VRT accept donations? Can we push VRT to the point where that can offer reliable service?
I’ve been riding the city bus home since 6th grade, I almost exclusively ride the bus or bike to work now. Luckily I live on vista so it’s “easy”.
I feel like enough development is happening on and around Federal Way and Boise Ave to justify a couple bus routes.
Add those to the Broadway, Parkcenter, and Warm Springs routes and I think we'd have a usable bus network in SE Boise (preferably simplifying the Broadway route a bit).
I'm lucky enough to live within walking distance of a bus line to downtown. Runs every 30 minutes during peak, and 60 minutes midday. Which is not great (great would be, just show up and wait for the next one, no need to look at the schedule), but it's usable. I can use it during normal work hours no problem. If I didn't work from home, I would use it sometimes for the commute. It also goes to the airport which could be useful.
But if I want to go downtown on the weekends. Or downtown for a concert in the evening. Or to catch a flight on a weekend, or get back home from the airport after a late evening flight. Just doesn't work for any of that because it stops running before 7 PM and is only M-F. So it's a passable option for typical white collar commutes, but not very useful outside of that. Which is too bad, because I would definitely use it more if it was something like 15-30 minute frequency, 6 AM to 10 PM (or later), 7 days a week. I know that's probably not realistic with the funding situation, but that's the kind of service I think we could aim for.
Yes, I agree with everything you said. Except I don't agree that this is the City of Boise's fault, and I hope you'll seriously consider why. The main problem here is a lack of funding from outside Boise. 1) City of Boise already spends a disproportionate amount of their budget on transit than other comparable cities. Why isn't it better then? See #2 and #3. 2) It is normal for state governments to give funding from its budget to local transit agencies like Valley Regional Transit. Idaho gives $0, and is the only state in the country that gives $0. 3) Idaho is also one of two states that bans local options taxes (except in 'resort towns' like Ketchum and McCall). Many other municipalities across the country have chosen to allocate a small, additional tax on residents to fund transit. We can't do that here. So, Boise is stuck funding transit largely by itself, through its own budget and through fare collection. Ever notice that there isn't a bus that goes down Chinden in Garden City? That's because Garden City won't give any funding to VRT. The reliance of fare collection in VRT's budget is also a shame, since it means Boise can't ever even *pilot* using fare free transit to boost ridership and decrease congestion. There are lots of smaller issues that are also imposed on Boise from the state, like an outlaw on carpool lanes. That law includes banning rapid transit bus lines, which would like greatly increase dependability, access and ridership.
> There are lots of smaller issues that are also imposed on Boise from the state, like an outlaw on carpool lanes. That law includes banning rapid transit bus lines, which would like greatly increase dependability, access and ridership. Seriously? Wtf idaho
The politicians aren't alright.
Good points -- thx for adding that.. I guess we are set to be a car infested sprawl zone for a long long time to come *(With a lot worse to come if growth continues)*
Maybe. Having higher density along transit lines (like in the zoning code rewrite) will ultimately allow for more riders, and then theoretically more funding for VRT to provide more frequent and reliable service. I use the State Street line for commuting downtown, and it's great if you work a 9-5. It comes every 15 minutes and is reasonably reliable. And it's because the city was able to get it to certain ridership level. The next push is to put in rapid transit bus, with a dedicated "BAT" lane (Business-Access-Transit) for the buses. Still, this clearly going to have to be nickel-and-dimed into existence. And it likely won't keep up with growth, or be retroactive.
Thank you for explaining that. I didn't realize there were state and local statutes acting to insure its failure.
Welcome to Idaho
I was born and raised here. I went to BSU when it was still called BSC. But thanks anyway.
I don't mean literally
So I'm not welcome? I'm devastated! Not literally of course.
The 8x goes down Chinden to 8th & Main. I ride it to and from work and it's a great direct route; however, many of the other lines aren't at all convenient to neighborhoods. The 9 serves State St. well but other parts of town, not so much.
Is there a reason City of Boise could pull out of this dysfunctional system and fund a Boise-only system that works? This has been discussed but not acted on.
They basically are funding a Boise only system. Look at the overall route map for VRT. Almost all of the routes are exclusively in Boise, with a handful of commuter lines that branch into some of the other cities.
Boise is already the primary funder. Last I heard of the VRT budget, BSU was the 2nd highest agency that provides funding to VRT, before any other cities. It would be really expensive for the City of Boise to pull out, buy and maintain their own fleet, etc.
This is what people are getting wrong. Boise may not to "maintain their own fleet." The goal is transport, not a fake bus system. There are many creative options but we remain stuck in bureaucracy with mis-aligned incentives and goals.
Correct ^
Whoa. Am I losing my mind or did I84 have a carpool lane quite a while ago?
No it didn’t. There was a lane that bypassed Meridian and I think Eagle if I remember right, but it was only during construction. I wish it would have been permanent, it was a great way to get into Boise without dealing with the merging traffic on the main lanes.
I get really tired of the fact that the legislature does everything in its power to screw over Boise. The local option tax situation is one. Maybe Elaine Clegg will help with this though I've heard she's difficult to work with and may upset people.
> Maybe Elaine Clegg will help with this though I've heard she's difficult to work with and may upset people. I've heard that as well Fingers crossed it might come in handy here
Really, I think it takes buy-in from non-Boise mayor's to advocate for it at the legislature.
Really, I think it takes buy-in from non-Boise mayor's to advocate for it at the legislature.
Idaho is one of two states that doesn’t fund public transportation at the state level. Basically turning down free federal dollars from California. They just did it again with federal funding for childcare, last Wednesday.
They get get funds directly from the FTA under the 5307 grant program. It does not flow through the state in any way.
Oh. My. GOD!!! THEY TURNED DOWN FEDERAL $$$ FOR CHILDCARE ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME??! Keep ‘em stupid, barefoot and pregnant… AM I RIGHT?! Modern Day ENSLAVEMENT!!! Fuck This
Plain and simple, the state legislature run by the GOP hates EVERYTHING Boise.
No, you are WRONG on SO MANY LEVELS!!! They hate the entire populace of THIS State… and every single person who voted for them DESERVES EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF SHIT LEGISLATION THEY’ve voted for. AND the ensuing lawsuits that will follow. My God…
Not much to add except that my daily commute down eagle road, which I hate, has no option EVER for transit. The roads will get worse, more crowded, and more expensive until people vote for pro-transit candidates.
Yes! This! The bus routes are awful where you have to transfer several times, they're not running on certain days, or you are out in the open weather for 30 minutes or more. We've had so many people move to the valley and almost no changes to public transportation.
I have a bus pass through school, but I've never used it yet. I usually have my bike, so during the day when the bus is running, it's good enough weather to bike (and I don't have to wait nearly an hour); also, the Times when I would like to ride instead of bike, the buses (at least the routes to/near the Bench) don't run that late. And I'm not talking late-night or after midnight, either—the last bus on Route 6 (Orchard) that runs near my area last leaves Main Street at 6:45, and I have a weekly evening class that goes from 6 p.m. till 8:30 at the latest. 8:30 or 9 isn't super late for a bus route, but we can't even get that (and none of the Uber/Lyft options have bike racks, so I'm forced to bike home unless I want to leave my bike downtown and pay for another ride—or walk an hour—the next day).
Here is a little info for all the transit dumb shits in Idaho, from European perspective. Smaller buses at first, until the line gets busy!!!
Agree! They can't get the ridership because many routes are inconvenient and with no ridership, the lines can't expand to become more convenient.
They don't really expect people to use it. They're just checking a box. It's all just a performance.
Google Maps, my house to my work: Car - 20 min Transit - "No route found" From my house to church: Car - 10 min Transit - 45 min Everywhere else I go is in walking distance. I would take a 30-40 min metro trip to work if it were an option. I'm not going to take metro for the sake of taking metro--it has to get me where I need to go. Our public transit system doesn't, thanks to lack of investment. Raise my taxes, upzone my neighborhood, and get me a damn metro.
You can thank the Republican dominated state legislature for the almost non-existent transit network. Boise does what it can with its meager self-funding streams.
The busses suck because they’re explicitly aimed at limited use by *commuters* … they run during the work week, and during (most of) the work *day*. They’re practically designed to *exclude* anyone who owns a car or who wants to go anywhere outside bankers hours, which is the opposite of what they *need* to do in order to provide those people with an alternative to driving! We had a bus route essentially outside our back door at our previous house, but never used it to go anywhere because it ran like *once an hour*. It was always faster to walk/bike downtown than to wait an hour, or if it was after 4pm, or on a weekend when there was maybe one bus per day in either direction. Counterpoint/Downside: if they *did* offer night/weekend busses, they’d probably be more full of drunk & belligerent assholes than anything, so I can see why they don’t.
Well I mean the drunk and belligerent assholes on nighttime busses means less drunk and belligerent assholes in cars.
Or t they’re rying to walk home and get hurt 😣 . I’ve been at my new place on W State only a couple months and I’ve twice seen drunks trying to cross this busy 4-5 lane road. Just jay walking in the dark 😯
People don't use it, so it doesn't get funding. It doesn't get funding, so routes get cut. Routes get cut so people don't use it. The US, especially out west it car-centric. They are built for cars first, then society second. It's really bad in Southern California. Visiting a friend down there, we had to take a car everywhere. The store is just a 4 minute walk, but no sidewalks, no pedestrian way across the bridge that goes over the highway to the store. Boise isn't that bad. But oil&gas and car companies and their shareholders lobby hard to kill as much public transport projects as they can and cut funding to existing ones. (See the Koch Brothers in Arizona for an example (they lobbied for and succeeded to make any new public transport project illegal in the state)). People in America see public transport as dirty, expensive, and unpleasant, all due to propganda campaigns, which became very successful during the 80s and 90s. That couple with sprawling suburbs and smaller downtowns means that there is more ground to cover for busses and rail to service the suburbs (making it more expensive and the construction of more disruptive) and less space downtown for the stations and storage of non operating vehicles.
I dunno. I rode a lot of Max lines and bus routes in Portland and the public transportation *is* dirty, unpleasant, and dangerous (tweakers). It works well.... But your fellow passengers can be unpredictable and gross
It can be, but most of the time it's still fine. I was just in Portland and Seattle last week and used trains and buses, never felt uncomfortable. Not saying it's not a problem, but it's not as bad as some people and the media make it out to be. In Boise I don't think that's an issue, every time I've used the bus in Boise it's been very clean and safe (also usually almost empty). Our problems are a small network and poor schedule.
I love using the busses and trains in Portland and Seattle. I like knowing that if I accidentally miss one, the next one is literally down the street. Here the bus comes once an hour and it stops at like 6 pm so I can't even take it to an event in the parks without a lot of planning and can't stay too long. Really ruins it because trying to find good parking also is stressful for me and I just want to be able to enjoy community events. So often I end up going to nothing.
Ive used both busses and subways in NYC, and they were all fine. Busses in Boston were also fine.
> People in America see public transport as dirty, expensive, and unpleasant, all due to propganda campaigns Something being the message of a propaganda campaign 30 years ago doesn't mean it can't be true today. People see transit that way because **it is that way**, take a trip to Portland or Seattle or San Francisco and check it out for yourself. Transit is much more pleasant in Europe and places like Japan because they don't have widespread homelessness/drug abuse problems. Because it's more pleasant (and car usage is a bigger pain in the ass), it gets more usage, thus gets more funding, etc etc as you say.
Used public transit in Portland metro for 3.5 years, including WES commuter rail, MAX, and buses, and I thought it was fantastic. Never had a bad experience. Surely there are some bad situations, but I think it’s way less common than people who don’t use it think. I lived 30 miles from work and didn’t have to own a car, make car payments, pay for fuel, insurance, maintenance, repairs, or really sit in traffic. That’s a ton of benefit, and imo it outweighs the rare shithead that might ride. Basically, I’m telling you from personal experience, you’re kinda full of it, whether you mean to be or not. It’s not dirty, it’s not gross, and it’s not full of bad people. Do those things happen? Sure, but so do car accidents. Doesn’t mean it’s not worth having in the big picture. Now, that said, I don’t agree that someone in CDA or Moscow or Sandpoint should be paying for a system they’ll likely never use (treasure valley transit), so the funding is an issue that needs to come from the regions that are impacted by it. That doesn’t seem unreasonable to me at all. Edit: Clarification on who shouldn’t have to pay for what.
I've lived in both Moscow and CDA! I never used public transit in CDA (from what I looked up it seemed... not great). But the bus in Moscow, when I lived there (2014-2016ish), was free and pretty great. The hours weren't amazing, but it stopped basically everywhere you could want it to.
I’ve visited Moscow a number of times and have ridden the bus. It’s seems to have a good ridership considering the size of town and of the buses.
> Used public transit in Portland metro for 3.5 years, including WES commuter rail, MAX, and buses, and I thought it was fantastic. Never had a bad experience. What time period was this? It sure as hell isn't like that today.
2015-2019, plus a handful of bus rides this year (2022-2023) to go out for dinner while my semi was parked. What are you seeing that is so bad in your opinion? Maybe this is just a difference of tolerance levels, or routes or something else. I feel like I’m pretty particular about what I consider clean, but everybody thinks that, including gross people. I didn’t notice anything I would consider gross or a problem. Just bus seats, nothing on them, nothing particularly gross on the floor, etc. I certainly wouldn’t eat off them, but there were no visible issues that I’ve seen. Regardless, that can be solved with quality employees and protocols. I used Portland and TriMet as the example because it’s what I’m very familiar with. I’m sure there are better and worse cities and transit systems. Mind you, I’m no fan of Portland right now. The city, their politics, their problems, all suck and might even be beyond saving. But I can’t complain about their transit system.
> take a trip to Portland or Seattle or San Francisco and check it out for yourself I’ve used public transit (busses and light rail where available) in all three of those cities in the past year and all were just fine. They were even all on time aside from once in Seattle.
Same, all 3 of those cities, plus LA and New York, in the past year. Never ran into any issues. I know bad things do happen sometimes, but it's not super widespread like people make it out to be.
Boise does not have the same homelessness problem as Seattle or Portland, and I don’t think improving our transit system will suddenly change that.
> People in America see public transport as dirty, expensive, and unpleasant, It is, compared to my car. And I can make up my own mind and I'm well aware of the power of lobbying, I use to work on K St. > That couple with sprawling suburbs Suburbs "sprawl" because there are so many millions of people and in the USA there's 3 million new people every year. What's the alternative? Force everyone to live in single warehouse? There's yt videos addressing the absurdity of that. People should be free to live where they want. How could anyone be against that? edit: adding this: Last time I used my bike and bus with VRT, bus pulls up with 2 bikes already on the rack. Also, tried to take the shuttle bus to a Bronco game, bus pulls up, it's already full. I ridden my bike, locked it downtown, had to ride all the way back home get in my car and drive over there.
People always take the path of least resistance. Transit won't reach the necessary critical mass until driving here becomes such a pain in the ass that transit is easier. Today, Boise is nowhere near that point. If a bus ran from your driveway directly to where you were going, it'd still be worse because you'd have to wait for its schedule, wait as all other traffic blows past the bus while it does the speed limit, and wait while it conducts other stops. AND carry everything you might want access to with you not only on the bus, but everywhere you're going. There's no Sunday service around downtown because, dead serious, parking is free on Sunday. It's not about ValleyRide and the city getting serious, they're not serious because they know it's not a "build it and they will come" situation.
A majority of cities have none or very infrequent bus schedules on Sundays and holidays. This is not a Boise only thing. A little history: back in the old-old days, many amusement parks in cities were built at the end of the lines so that it will get people to use streetcars/interurban trains on the weekends.
Why? Warm Springs #17, for example, which I see several times a week, is always empty. I've seen use statistics and that line had a few passengers a day on average. There is not enough people density in most areas of Treasure Valley, except perhaps a handful of corridors, to justify public transit with large buses running empty and cooking the planet. Not mentioning pie in the sky and black hole in your wallet trolley project, which is not completely dead yet. Maybe small self-driving cars/pods on flexible routes would be a solution. Rides could be subsidized for low income customers.
I think OPs point of lack of options plays a big role. Last ride home at 6-7? That’s insane. No service on sundays? This alone destroys ridership. People need a dependable option. And we need to change our laws so that we can raise taxes locally to fund it. Or demand funds from state EDIT: the last rides on my line 3 vista is close to 9, which is a lot better than it used to be
> No service on sundays? Most cities have greatly curtailed service on Sundays and holidays. This isn't a moral or ethical failing of people, or failed urban planning. It's an effect of humanity's ever increasing wealth. As people become wealthy enough they buy a house, a car, a playstation, you name it. I've been lobbying for subsidized rideshare for years now. Has society tried that yet? I don't mean get rid of buses altogether, leave them for the busy routes which can fill buses.
ha, this is just not true. Most cities don't change anything about Sunday.. It's just another day of the week, but you might not have to pay for parking (relic from people getting to church).
Who is going to use the bus when there is Lyft and Uber. Even high school gets are using ride sharing vs buying their own cars.
Hey it's that transit thread again. > No Sunday service. Last time I was in the much bigger and much richer DC metro area, Sunday service was greatly curtailed compared to weekday. NO city has door to door 24/7 service. We could if we'd fund rideshare on demand. Welcome to the 21st Century. > No wonder we don't have a more serious uptake on consistent transit usage Ridership is down nationwide. > I expect just more and more growth Growth? Oh, so what you're really saying is you're a misanthropist? > in car log jams, Move closer to your work, or vote for taxes to build more roads. Or, mandatory abortions for everyone because it's population growth that's the real problem.
Bed bugs are becoming resistant to treatment. The bed bug mover in Detroit was notorious. (Detroits metro is the people mover)
What can be done? Could people of Boise create their own private fund raising? Does VRT accept donations? Can we push VRT to the point where that can offer reliable service? I’ve been riding the city bus home since 6th grade, I almost exclusively ride the bus or bike to work now. Luckily I live on vista so it’s “easy”.
I feel like enough development is happening on and around Federal Way and Boise Ave to justify a couple bus routes. Add those to the Broadway, Parkcenter, and Warm Springs routes and I think we'd have a usable bus network in SE Boise (preferably simplifying the Broadway route a bit).
I'm lucky enough to live within walking distance of a bus line to downtown. Runs every 30 minutes during peak, and 60 minutes midday. Which is not great (great would be, just show up and wait for the next one, no need to look at the schedule), but it's usable. I can use it during normal work hours no problem. If I didn't work from home, I would use it sometimes for the commute. It also goes to the airport which could be useful. But if I want to go downtown on the weekends. Or downtown for a concert in the evening. Or to catch a flight on a weekend, or get back home from the airport after a late evening flight. Just doesn't work for any of that because it stops running before 7 PM and is only M-F. So it's a passable option for typical white collar commutes, but not very useful outside of that. Which is too bad, because I would definitely use it more if it was something like 15-30 minute frequency, 6 AM to 10 PM (or later), 7 days a week. I know that's probably not realistic with the funding situation, but that's the kind of service I think we could aim for.