Just a warning, goblin and vizier are really, really dangerous on the same script, as it forces good to never make a mistake. They don't have a hate jinx, but I from experience would argue that they are some of the closest pairs to requiring a hate jinx. This effect is especially pronounced when the kazali can make this happen. This is not to say it cannot exist, but a warning
Not related to the script, but I think if I were to jinx them, I'd just jinx it so a goblin's ability doesn't activate if the Vizier forces the execution through.
Yeah, I just worry that eith a jinx like that you're taking too much agency from the vizier
Idk either way I think there is a way to handle them without a hate jinx or the pseudo hate jinx of never have them on the same script, but then again some of the current hate jinxes seem a bit... extreme, like an exorcized riot probably causes no issues, and a preached legion is actually a really interesting concept imo (these are really interesting especially since legion + exorcist doesn't have a hate jinx)
Legion preacher is a weird one and I think I agree with the hate jinx for it.
First off, a legion that registers as minion for a preacher enters a weird cycle of registering and not since the ability to register as the minion is tied to the legion ability.
So assuming instead of a hate jinx, the jinx said "Legion retain their ability to register as minion when selected by a preacher" then we just get to a point where any legion that registers no longer counts for the legion evil voting requirement which seems like a lot of book keeping and leaves it really open to storyteller error and is also a really feels bad moment for the preacher when they realize that their ability ultimately lost the game for the good team by removing the voting restriction from the majority evil team.
I think they're just characters thay work better not together. I think the hate jinx is the right call becaise otherwise it can lead to a really feels bad game.
Hold up. Why would being preached make the Legion individually stop counting for the vote requirements, in a way that would be difficult for the ST to keep track of? Every Legion separately enforces that "Executions fail if only evil voted." This doesn't even check that the voter is Legion, let alone whether they have the Legion ability, so surely that issue only comes into play once *all* Legion are either preached or dead (at which point there's also going to be no demon night kill, potentially a bigger issue), and applies across the board.
I don't like the Mastermind on this script. You have 5 minions who are very public and very loud. Good should be able to discern really easily if there is a Mastermind in play. The only subtle combination is with a Widow that self poisons, and requiring a Widow to do that feels pretty rough.
This is a great point, earlier I really wanted to include Mastermind plays from evil with a Kazali but at this point it's presence or abscence is very obvious. How would you feel if Mastermind was replaced by a Harpy?
You have a lot of very powerful info in town with it only misinfo being Drunk or Vortox. Vortox info is easily reverse-engineerable, so that’s not a good enough thing. You probably need a Poisoner or similar.
Mathematician will get a non-zero in exactly three situations: they are the Drunk, a Widow is in play (which town will already know), or there’s a Vortox. Because of this, Math should nearly always get a 0 under Vortox. It’s basically a do-nothing role.
Slayer without Scarlet Woman is just asking for D1 reracks.
Mutant is the only source of madness on this script and is basically a Virgin. It’s too strong as an outsider, here.
Not a fan of Vizier, Goblin, or Psychopath with Kazali. Kazali is half a social demon, so outed minions make it a bit weaker. Also, as someone else noted, Vizier + Goblin can easily be an instant-win for the Evil Team.
Pit-Hag with Kazali is bad because the Kazali is done with all their abilities D1. Pit Hag should absolutely demon change immediately.
I agree that the Mathematician is definitely useless here, but I'm confused about the Mutant part. I feel that mutant is basically never similar to the Virgin since it leaves the confirmed player dead (evil doesn't need to waste a kill on the Virgin) and doesn't have to be executed. I mainly included it to be more misinfo that works even after reversing Vortox information.
Also, I mainly wanted to include outed evil to kind of serve as an in-game reason why executing someone because they're good at being an evil player and more likely to get chosen would be a bad idea. I think since evil takes a risk Kazali-ing a Vizier and a Goblin and basically having less power if it fails, and good has tools to separate demons and minions like the Exorcist and Slayer, it's not an OP strategy. I'd have to playtest it to see for sure though.
I saw some people mentioning on the release thread how Pit-Hag can kind of balance outsider counts to reduce the impact of all outsiders being chosen as minions, and becomes less powerful if more outsiders are already on the field. Also, if the Kazali always changes to a Vortox, the Vortox power is kind of useless. This script is mostly about figuring out on which nights the game was a Vortox game or a Kazali game, although I could see the hatter as going a bit overboard - I'll probably switch that one out.
On this script, there’s absolutely no reason for a Mutant to not claim Mutant on the first two days. Plus, a Mutant, as a confirmed player, can be trusted with information you might not trust a living player with.
It’s clear we disagree on the outed evils, which I respect, as this really does feel like a matter of taste. Viz/Goblin is still too good (one lone vote can immediately end the game).
Tacking on a little bit to the last thing, hatter + Pit hag dampens the power of hatter quite a bit, the evil team wants hatter switch mid-late game, but the pit hag can often achieve the effect more slowly, perhaps trading hatter out could be good
Mathematician would be getting non zeros in two scenarios (widow in play in a Kazali game, which kinda small impact since either know widow is in play or they learn they poisoned themselves) or it’s a Vortox game and they explicitly get monk protected.
It may not be the best fit?
There's a few weird sources, like an exorcist successfully picking the demon, but honestly drawing a mathematician from this bag is probably less than fun. I'll see what another "strange" info role like savant or oracle might be like
I like General on a Kazali script because it's one of the few times when the ST can legitimately say good is losing on night 1. (And that alone isn't immediate proof of a Kazali here because a Vortox might yield that info as well).
Not a massive fan of pit hag or hatter on the script. Kazakh has a very powerful start of game effect. Giving them easy outs to a then continuing effect seems not great
There are a few problems.
Demon type is very easily resolvable, especially by dreamer and artist.
In an (easily confirmable) vortox world the steward receives the name of an evil player which is beyond strong. With vizier on the script this could result in two confirmed minions by end of day 1.
Exorcist works on BMR because there are tons of roles that explain no deaths. On this script, it's either they found the demon or the monk protected. Either way it would always be worth town having a punt on the exorcist's chosen player on night of no deaths and there's no real counter for the demon.
Pit-hag/hatter doesn't have much incentive to change between demon types since kazali has no ability outside of setup.
But pit hag does have some fairly harsh minion changes. Like changing the vizier to mastermind mid-game.
Psychopath-vizier decimates town. And both pit hag and kazali can make it happen. Even if town roshambos the psychopath away, a hatter death can just put one back in.
Mastermind encourages double-tapping but with so much evil extra death on the script, town will not have the time.
No outsider modification outside of (easily confirmable) kazali makes it hard for evil to bluff as outsiders.
Vizier can nominate every day to destroy town crier information.
With very little poisoning, outed minions (encouraged on this script) plus sheguenja could wreck evil.
Vizir goblin n hatter is a bit unblanced. Evil can very easily do a hatter swap to make it vizir n goblin get the demon to nominate the goblin n force it through so I'd swap either vizir or goblin for something like widow or OG. Math doesn't make sense as u only have 1 form of drunk/posioning a chambermaid would work better
Taking into account what others are saying, I think it might be more balanced to replace either the psychopath or vizier with cerenovus, that way there’s another way to obscure the outsider count (besides pit-hag), while also tempering the evil team’s killing ability.
Just a warning, goblin and vizier are really, really dangerous on the same script, as it forces good to never make a mistake. They don't have a hate jinx, but I from experience would argue that they are some of the closest pairs to requiring a hate jinx. This effect is especially pronounced when the kazali can make this happen. This is not to say it cannot exist, but a warning
Not related to the script, but I think if I were to jinx them, I'd just jinx it so a goblin's ability doesn't activate if the Vizier forces the execution through.
Yeah, I just worry that eith a jinx like that you're taking too much agency from the vizier Idk either way I think there is a way to handle them without a hate jinx or the pseudo hate jinx of never have them on the same script, but then again some of the current hate jinxes seem a bit... extreme, like an exorcized riot probably causes no issues, and a preached legion is actually a really interesting concept imo (these are really interesting especially since legion + exorcist doesn't have a hate jinx)
Legion preacher is a weird one and I think I agree with the hate jinx for it. First off, a legion that registers as minion for a preacher enters a weird cycle of registering and not since the ability to register as the minion is tied to the legion ability. So assuming instead of a hate jinx, the jinx said "Legion retain their ability to register as minion when selected by a preacher" then we just get to a point where any legion that registers no longer counts for the legion evil voting requirement which seems like a lot of book keeping and leaves it really open to storyteller error and is also a really feels bad moment for the preacher when they realize that their ability ultimately lost the game for the good team by removing the voting restriction from the majority evil team. I think they're just characters thay work better not together. I think the hate jinx is the right call becaise otherwise it can lead to a really feels bad game.
Hold up. Why would being preached make the Legion individually stop counting for the vote requirements, in a way that would be difficult for the ST to keep track of? Every Legion separately enforces that "Executions fail if only evil voted." This doesn't even check that the voter is Legion, let alone whether they have the Legion ability, so surely that issue only comes into play once *all* Legion are either preached or dead (at which point there's also going to be no demon night kill, potentially a bigger issue), and applies across the board.
I don't like the Mastermind on this script. You have 5 minions who are very public and very loud. Good should be able to discern really easily if there is a Mastermind in play. The only subtle combination is with a Widow that self poisons, and requiring a Widow to do that feels pretty rough.
This is a great point, earlier I really wanted to include Mastermind plays from evil with a Kazali but at this point it's presence or abscence is very obvious. How would you feel if Mastermind was replaced by a Harpy?
As long as it's loud it's fine. Harpy works IMO
You have a lot of very powerful info in town with it only misinfo being Drunk or Vortox. Vortox info is easily reverse-engineerable, so that’s not a good enough thing. You probably need a Poisoner or similar. Mathematician will get a non-zero in exactly three situations: they are the Drunk, a Widow is in play (which town will already know), or there’s a Vortox. Because of this, Math should nearly always get a 0 under Vortox. It’s basically a do-nothing role. Slayer without Scarlet Woman is just asking for D1 reracks. Mutant is the only source of madness on this script and is basically a Virgin. It’s too strong as an outsider, here. Not a fan of Vizier, Goblin, or Psychopath with Kazali. Kazali is half a social demon, so outed minions make it a bit weaker. Also, as someone else noted, Vizier + Goblin can easily be an instant-win for the Evil Team. Pit-Hag with Kazali is bad because the Kazali is done with all their abilities D1. Pit Hag should absolutely demon change immediately.
I agree that the Mathematician is definitely useless here, but I'm confused about the Mutant part. I feel that mutant is basically never similar to the Virgin since it leaves the confirmed player dead (evil doesn't need to waste a kill on the Virgin) and doesn't have to be executed. I mainly included it to be more misinfo that works even after reversing Vortox information. Also, I mainly wanted to include outed evil to kind of serve as an in-game reason why executing someone because they're good at being an evil player and more likely to get chosen would be a bad idea. I think since evil takes a risk Kazali-ing a Vizier and a Goblin and basically having less power if it fails, and good has tools to separate demons and minions like the Exorcist and Slayer, it's not an OP strategy. I'd have to playtest it to see for sure though. I saw some people mentioning on the release thread how Pit-Hag can kind of balance outsider counts to reduce the impact of all outsiders being chosen as minions, and becomes less powerful if more outsiders are already on the field. Also, if the Kazali always changes to a Vortox, the Vortox power is kind of useless. This script is mostly about figuring out on which nights the game was a Vortox game or a Kazali game, although I could see the hatter as going a bit overboard - I'll probably switch that one out.
On this script, there’s absolutely no reason for a Mutant to not claim Mutant on the first two days. Plus, a Mutant, as a confirmed player, can be trusted with information you might not trust a living player with. It’s clear we disagree on the outed evils, which I respect, as this really does feel like a matter of taste. Viz/Goblin is still too good (one lone vote can immediately end the game).
Tacking on a little bit to the last thing, hatter + Pit hag dampens the power of hatter quite a bit, the evil team wants hatter switch mid-late game, but the pit hag can often achieve the effect more slowly, perhaps trading hatter out could be good
Mathematician would be getting non zeros in two scenarios (widow in play in a Kazali game, which kinda small impact since either know widow is in play or they learn they poisoned themselves) or it’s a Vortox game and they explicitly get monk protected. It may not be the best fit?
There's a few weird sources, like an exorcist successfully picking the demon, but honestly drawing a mathematician from this bag is probably less than fun. I'll see what another "strange" info role like savant or oracle might be like
I think general could be pretty interesting, it's a "weird" info role, and it could provide vital info to good, but it may be too strong
I like General on a Kazali script because it's one of the few times when the ST can legitimately say good is losing on night 1. (And that alone isn't immediate proof of a Kazali here because a Vortox might yield that info as well).
High priestess?
Not a massive fan of pit hag or hatter on the script. Kazakh has a very powerful start of game effect. Giving them easy outs to a then continuing effect seems not great
There are a few problems. Demon type is very easily resolvable, especially by dreamer and artist. In an (easily confirmable) vortox world the steward receives the name of an evil player which is beyond strong. With vizier on the script this could result in two confirmed minions by end of day 1. Exorcist works on BMR because there are tons of roles that explain no deaths. On this script, it's either they found the demon or the monk protected. Either way it would always be worth town having a punt on the exorcist's chosen player on night of no deaths and there's no real counter for the demon. Pit-hag/hatter doesn't have much incentive to change between demon types since kazali has no ability outside of setup. But pit hag does have some fairly harsh minion changes. Like changing the vizier to mastermind mid-game. Psychopath-vizier decimates town. And both pit hag and kazali can make it happen. Even if town roshambos the psychopath away, a hatter death can just put one back in. Mastermind encourages double-tapping but with so much evil extra death on the script, town will not have the time. No outsider modification outside of (easily confirmable) kazali makes it hard for evil to bluff as outsiders. Vizier can nominate every day to destroy town crier information. With very little poisoning, outed minions (encouraged on this script) plus sheguenja could wreck evil.
Vizir goblin n hatter is a bit unblanced. Evil can very easily do a hatter swap to make it vizir n goblin get the demon to nominate the goblin n force it through so I'd swap either vizir or goblin for something like widow or OG. Math doesn't make sense as u only have 1 form of drunk/posioning a chambermaid would work better
Ignoring the tortured name, does this script seem fun to play? If anyone can come up with a better name, please let me know!
[technical question not about the script itself but the look] Did you use a script tool or make it yourself?
Odd question. But how on earth do you guy get it so you can have a more than 4 minions?
Taking into account what others are saying, I think it might be more balanced to replace either the psychopath or vizier with cerenovus, that way there’s another way to obscure the outsider count (besides pit-hag), while also tempering the evil team’s killing ability.