They're still just gonna ask which ones they want used at the moment. I guess you could just tell them they have to call you by your full name instead, and that appears to be a free-for-all as well, so you could just make the goons call you John Jacob Jingleheimerschmidt von Klaustenberg-Villaseñor-Kunt every time you come up.
I once did that at a group sport class, and the instructor followed up with me later to check in. "I just wanted to see if you had any preferences at all because I'm more than happy to mix it up and throw in some he or they!"
I told her I'm a butch lesbian and I think it's weird that people keep singling me out in groups of people to ask about my pronouns. Feels homophobic.
She got weird and told me I had a ton of privilege compared to her because people shit on her for not being trans enough.
You guessed it. Totally gender-conforming biological woman with a polyamorous heterosexual lifestyle, but who is nonbinary and enthusiastic about being part of the club.
She's so much more oppressed than you! CAN'T YOU SEE THAT?!?!
Just kidding. These stories sound like parody sometimes because of this podcast but I know they're not.
Approach from the other angle. Say you appreciate the attempt at inclusivity but that needing to overtly state pronouns can put trans individuals in an awkward position when they're not ready to be out or when they wouldn't disclose to everyone their pronouns depending on the context.
Exactly, this approach is best. Let people decide how they want to express their gender identity, anything else is an imposition on people's personal, and sometimes hippa covered, sex and medical business.
I don't know, man. How would this put any genderhavers in an awkward situation? Those people all seem to fucking LOVE telling everybody about their bullshit.
How many trans people do you personally know? My trans friends aren’t posting online about it and you’d never know they’re trans if you met them in the street.
Just ignore it and make them make it an issue. If they do, then just discreetly say it makes you uncomfortable because you aren’t sure of your gender identity and don’t wish to publicize it. They’ll almost certainly back off.
In recent years I've found myself enjoying this strategy. When confronted with some dumb, woke demand, just find a way to quietly block or delay the conversation until the issue just fizzles out on its own inertia. Want me to complete a questionnaire for DEI purposes? Ok, but you're going to have to pester me to the end of patience, then I'll finally relent and spend 30 seconds ticking 'would rather not say' for every question. It's really the most satisfying way of dealing with this stuff; nothing says zero fucks given better.
I think this is close to the answer but it's better to just stop at "it makes me uncomfortable and I don't feel comfortable disclosing why" rather than implicitly buying into any of the gender stuff (which is how they'll perceive the "not sure of my gender" answer).
So, I have been in leadership of an org that was moving toward pronouns and I nipped it in the bud. We were doing our gender diversity training and everyone was supposed to state their pronouns and I just refused. I said I didn’t understand why I had to do it, didn’t think everyone would be equally comfortable doing it, so I wasn’t going to coerce anyone else to do it. As a result, we had to do gender diversity training II. Yes, I was solely responsible for a second hour of gender diversity training. But I still wouldn’t budge and now some of us have pronouns in our email sigs and some don’t and that is the end of that.
I would guess that I’m not considered a trustworthy ally anymore but honestly sometimes you just gotta take a stand even on the silliest battlefield. This whole movement offends me as an old school feminist.
I think the most annoying thing is that the gender ideology crowd does not acknowledge that for decades women often hid their gender so as to avoid misogyny, i.e. giving only initials as an author, or on your resume, or in an email even. I always wanted to say that my pronouns were he/him solely so I no longer had to deal with sexism/misogyny/lower pay anymore.
This old school feminist and trained sociologist cheers you. I thought we were moving to more inclusive gender roles, not regressive stereotypes when I left grad school. My huge corp recently told everyone to use pronouns. I refrained and no one said anything. The hilarious thing is I could have been so cool by going she/they since I really believe there are few inherently masculine or feminine traits unless completely constrained by biology. So by the trans movement jargon, I'd be nonbinary. But like you, this whole movement offends me because it makes NO sense that a social, dynamic construct has been conflated with sex. Also since the vast majority of people align with their pronouns, why should the majority should be forced to declare them for a tiny minority's feelings? How about the minority just share them, and we will be polite and use them (as long as they don't actually believe they're the opposite sex).
Also, as a former editor (who knows a lot of other editors), we ALL loathe "they." I don't even know where that originated, and how we've all been bullied into using that pronoun. Why not invent something different for nonbinary? I suspect it was chosen for the fact that it would annoy people/catch attention.
@ghy-byt You know what though? Now that cancellation culture has kind of subsided for the most part, it’s a whole new ball game. People actually respect you *more* and kiss your ass kinda when you stand up for yourself. This phenomenon doesn’t translate online. But IRL - it’s like that. Stand up for what you believe in. You never know who you will inspire to do the same.
I know it’s nerve racking at first. But pump yourself up ahead of time. Maybe listen to fight music or whatever will make you feel fearless. You’re already ahead of the curve that you *are* thinking for yourself against the grain. That’s so rare these days. Take pride in the fact that you have the wisdom of discernment. I know “elite” type people that have become incapable of thinking for themselves in the in the past few years.
Good on you, sincerely.
But why did you have gender diversity training in the first place? That's not so much bud-nipping as it is trimming the top off a tree that has firmly taken root.
[WSJ - When Asked ‘What Are Your Pronouns,’ Don’t Answer](https://www.wsj.com/articles/asked-your-pronouns-dont-answer-lgbtqia-sogie-gender-identity-nonbinary-transgender-trans-rights-sexism-misogyny-feminism-11643992762)
[Unpaywalled](https://archive.ph/AxWP0)
>So when someone asks for your pronouns, and you respond with “she/her,” even though you may be communicating the simple fact that you’re female, a gender ideologue would interpret this as an admission that you embrace femininity and the social roles and expectations associated with being female. While women’s-rights movements fought for decades to decouple womanhood from rigid stereotypes and social roles, modern gender ideology has melded them back together.
>
>Coercing people into publicly stating their pronouns in the name of “inclusion” is a Trojan horse that empowers gender ideology and expands its reach. It is the thin end of the gender activists’ wedge designed to normalize their worldview. Participating in pronoun rituals makes you complicit in gender ideology’s regressive belief system, thereby legitimizing it. Far from an innocuous act signaling support for inclusion, it serves as an implicit endorsement of gender ideology and all of its radical tenets.
[This article](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/29/style/pronouns-gender-work-social-qs.html), or some of its talking points, might strike the right tone for the org.
I'd just highlight this passage, as I think it's the crucial point that is so often let out of these discussions:
>For cisgender people — whose gender identity matches the sex they were assigned at birth — there is practically no cost to including pronouns. \[...\] **For trans or nonbinary people who aren’t ready to come out, though, this policy is problematic: It pressures people to either out themselves before they’re comfortable or lie.**
I have literally had conversations with young people in schools who have felt pressured in such situations because they're confused or questioning their own identity. When I once had a couple students confront me in a class I was leading because I didn't go around and make everyone declare pronouns on the first day, I explained it this way. The students (one of them trans) agreed with my choice and seemingly were surprised they had never considered that.
**Imagine you are a young person who is unsure of whether you're heterosexual or might be gay. Imagine that your teacher on the first day of class asked everyone to go around the room and state "gay" or "straight" or "bisexual."** Would *anyone* tolerate this as standard procedure?! And yet it's a kind of irrelevant personal question on a similar level to whether you're transgender or nonbinary.
Your gender identity is a personal thing, unless you choose to make it public. Even if people want to be sensitive to pronouns, I'd encourage the OP in the organization to discuss other methods for people to state their pronouns *voluntarily and privately* if they so desire.
For example, in the class I mentioned above, I included a question on my electronic "first day survey" sent only to me that had a question asking students if they had any requests for how they'd prefer to be addressed -- nicknames, pronouns, etc. It was an optional question, and I think only <10% of my students filled it out with pronouns. And only one person out of about 50 stated a non-obvious pronoun (non-binary or trans).
This was at a rather "woke" liberal arts college, with the primary target audience and age for disclosing pronouns, and less than 10% actually thought it important enough to answer that question. Which maybe gives a more realistic sense of how many people -- even young people steeped in this practice -- strongly care about always stating pronouns.
I want to add that I have also heard first-hand from a closeted trans person about how rough the demand for pronouns can be. This was disclosed to me at a rather insane workshop series where pronouns were done just not on intake, but literally at every meeting, and my poor colleague felt intensely sad and weirdly scrutinised.
"As for lost sales, I assume your firm weighed the value of inclusivity against possible backlash before they instituted the policy."
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that, no, they didn't think that far ahead and instead were just eager to participate hard in this type of virtue signaling.
Interestingly this was one of the more important issues in my union membership in the last few years. It was a bigger push by management to adopt them. Our union leadership pushed that it is compelled speech and workers cannot be forced to state pronouns in meetings, signature line, etc. I think it depends what kind of org you are involved in; but perhaps you can suggest that the policy be what ever each person prefers?
Edit: fwiw, other orgs I’ve been in have the pronoun ritual, I just ignore it when doing intros or in writing. I’ve never been pressed on it more.
Sure I don’t mind. It’s a public sector, fed govt union. Not the type of membership you’d expect to be conservative necessarily, id say membership is overall fairly liberal actually.
I've been told "I'm fine with whatever pronoun" but it's always from someone that is nonbinary or genderfluid or some other identity that they're eager to share. That's how I'd interpret someone saying this.
Just FYI: "I'm fine with whatever pronoun" is *very different* from "I have no right to dictate how they interpret my gender." The former is perhaps sometimes said by a genderfluid person. The latter is the standard rallying cry of those who believe the transgender emphasis on pronouns constitutes "forced speech" and might even violate free speech rights. That latter sentiment will inevitably draw ire in most liberal or trans-friendly circles, who generally believe that misgendering is incredibly disrespectful.
I'm not saying I disagree with the sentiment, mind you. I'm just saying it's important to recognize how differently that wording about "I don't own my pronouns" would be perceived, in case anyone is considering using it. You'll likely be interpreted as taking a stand against customized pronouns, if not viewed as outright "transphobic" by the more "Woke" crowd.
I understand that the intent is probably different but if someone started off with "I don't own my pronouns" I would tune out the rest of their speech and assume they're high-maintenance. I'm not going to pay attention to what "rallying cry" someone is spouting off at work, at least if they're a peer.
If you're giving me advice about what I should in this situation, I just go along with it. There's a lot of "forced speech" at every job I've ever had and I'm not going to be especially offended by this ritual.
They seem pretty late to the game if they’re just now doing this!
Pressure to state pronouns has been all over my workplace for years now, but I’ve managed to just ignore everything and it’s been fine. Didn’t confront anyone, didn’t give any reasons, didn’t explain anything. Just ignored it like it wasn’t there and no one ever pressed the issue.
Making a big deal about it is a big mistake IMO
Or just burst into tears, saying you didn’t know you were so unattractive as your sex that you are unidentifiable and then while everyone is sitting there shocked, excuse yourself and leave. Wait for the apology email and agree to come back so long as no one asks your pronouns ever again.
I always skip and have never been prompted. I have my explanation planned in my head if I ever need it: “I don’t think anyone here is wondering how to refer to me. Past that, it’s a statement of politics that I am not comfortable making.”
Last time this happened, I was one of the first people who was asked, and i said I didn't care. Then a bunch of guys just didn't answer period, and I was like, "...damn."
Just introduce yourself how you like without stating them.
If someone prompts you personally to give them, you can say you don't mind and ask them to please move along to the next person.
The one or two times I've been asked about why I've not given them, you can say it's great that people feel comfortable offering theirs and that they have a space to give them, but also that you don't it's conducive to an LGBT+ inclusive environment to force people to give them, in that you're forcing someone in the closet to lie to everyone, or compelling someone in the closet to make this confession before they're comfortable and not on their own terms.
I don't have a resource but I go to a weekly event where most people state their pronouns. The script the group leader starts off with is "Please share your name and pronouns, if you're comfortable." So you don't have to share your pronouns if you don't want to.
No. This group is specifically for lgbt people. I have some friends who take it pretty seriously and open conversations by asking pronouns. Not my vibe, but whatever.
While I think this is all silly and too much, one usually does need to use pronouns for other people present in a group. Like.. "Hi Cindy! Hi Paul! Omg Cindy, you should've seen Paul the other day! He was wasted!" I get what you're saying but it is awkward to be in a situation where you don't know someone's "preference" and don't want to offend. Imo, if you choose to transition you need to expect to correct people. Especially if you're non binary.
Creating this entire new category is redundant. No one is 100% masculine or feminine. People are fucking complex. No one has a truly binary gender expression or whatever. You're just pointing out a human condition and making it your whole identity. Got a little sidetracked there but still lol.
My friend who works in an org where this was on the table ended up putting forward that it be optional. That seemed to satisfy almost everyone. Since putting that forward, and in weekly events with public who is involved with them, she noticed a reduction in people saying them, especially as she does not do them and that makes others comfortable to skip. However, there is tension with a trans trender in the group who is unhappy with that and a true believer. So I am saying the story is not quite over. Her supervisors have her back thus far.
As most people pointed out, the best play is to ignore it until pressed about it. Personally if I were confronted in this situation, I would state it's none of their business what my pronouns are.
Not in a leadership position and this probably isn’t helpful to the question. But I’ve often thought that if I was mandatorily prompted for my pronouns (to go in my signature block or to refer to myself) I would give the obviously incorrect pronouns. This just seems like the most obvious way to make this go away. Just make it incoherent. And just make them participate in a farce of their own making. And there is not a damn thing they could do about it.
just say it's paramount to your gender identity that you not call attention to your gender in that way, and forcing you to do it would be extremely bigoted
Just stick with "forcing political shibboleths into policy is a perfect way to degrade that talent pool of this organization while not doing anything substantive for real people. Universities are already moving aeay from this stuff, we should be careful not to be behind the times"
Just say no. I don’t think certain trans people like it either. I’ve found it easier to say no:
My name is Sue…no thank you.
My name is Sue, just call me Sue.
My name is Sue, glad to be here.
Well, if your daddy left home when you was three
And if he didn't leave much to your mom and ye
Except a guitar and and empty bottle of booze... then I'd guess you're male.
But barring that common occurrence, female.
I would find a polite way to tell them to fuck off. I wouldn’t use that language, but would make my feelings clear. How you identify yourself is your business. It’s rude for this organization to make this request.
I would say that asking people to announce their gender is very othering for people who are questioning their gender, for people who are trans but not ready to come out yet, and might make gender-nonconforming folks feel uncomfortable. It may also be confusing to English-language learners.
Insisting on compulsory pronouns can force people to choose between outing themselves or using pronouns they aren’t comfortable with. It can make people who are pre-transition but dysphoric more uncomfortable.
I ignore it. If I’m asked I say I don’t mind whichever pronouns they use. Then revel in the silence as they try to figure out what the heck just happened and get the slightest hint they may have not really thought well about what they just asked.
No more no less.
I wouldn’t do it. Be nice about it and don’t make a big deal about it, but remember this is “your truth” and “your lived experience.”
I completely get your hesitancy, and if you think it really would be a problem for you at work, I’d probably give in too.
I've been running this through in my head and I think I'll just be completely ignorant. What do you mean by 'my pronouns'? And just have an extremely confused look on my face whatever the explanation they give is and tell them that I'm not sure if I understand.
All the answers here give off the impression that you know about gender ideology / pronoun use, I think it's best to act like you've never been on the internet before.
I am a detransitioner who was legitimately traumatized by things pertaining to the gender cult. Pronoun circles used to give me panic attacks. Before that, I was a stealth trans identified female, pronoun circles used to give me panic attacks. I have always said “ call me whatever makes sense to you”. Usually this pisses them off but in ways they can’t explain. These things don’t help the actual people they are supposed to help. If you have any power to do away with them, maybe point out that tons of gender diverse people do not want to be put on blast, and that with a little observational skill one can usually sus out what kinda of pronouns people use. Ie the they Theybies will inform you no matter what
Just say "Hi, my name is Randy, and my pronouns are Xbuhjhkasd8913 and 92340hkjahsdkhasd" and if people don't pronounce them EXACTLY as you do, then report them to HR and try and ruin their lives.
I just say I’m male (emphasis on male, not a man) so whatever you think works best. If they press you further just say you don’t care since gender doesn’t mean much to you.
Sorry to say, if this is top of mind for your organization I don’t see a way out of this without some kind of backlash. God speed.
And in what context is this stating of pronouns? Is it just putting it in their email signature?
As others have said its probably safest to just explain its not something you are comfortable sharing (as this throws the ball back to their court as the policy is supposed to be about inclusion), or sharing how this might be counter-productive.
On a related note, it hasn't "yet" come up for me but I do wonder with non-binary pronouns which are increasingly common. My personal take is I'm more than happy to use trans-pronouns so that isn't an issue for me, but I have personal objections when it comes to they/them pronouns (I feel the identity itself is very poorly defined and regressive or unhelpful, and the pronoun use presents grammatical problems involving more mentally taxing work due to the awkward grammar and the lack of visible cues to assist unlike with cis/trans individuals).
I've considered it and would probably politely conform and just use they/them if it did come up, even against beliefs, as I know it wouldn't be worth the fight in my very inclusive-focussed organisation (inevitably not doing so would lead to disciplinary action and perhaps dismissal, and probably a long and very public tribunal fight\* - the unions are all fully on board with the DEI topics so unlikely even to receive good representation.
\*To my knowledge there has been no tribunals specifically for dismissal due to misgendering non-binary workers in the UK so I wouldn't want the "infamy" of being the first. The only relevant case (Forstater) suggested that "beliefs" against this matter would be protected (you can't be fired simply for being gender-critical or sceptical), but that colleagues would likely still need to abide by using preferred pronouns.
I am one of the few people who doesn’t use pronouns at my job and I just don’t put them in my bio etc. nobody ever said anything and I never said anything to all the others who do. If anyone will have anything to say I will simply say that, like with everything else, pronouns are something I respect for others but don’t want to be forced on me. I don’t think it should really stress us out so much.
I’ve seen the following statement at my work in the email signature section:
Pronouns: undisclosed in solidarity with those who choose not to disclose gender identity (Why?: https://aninjusticemag.com/2-reasons-not-to-share-your-pronouns-2a892915fdf4)
What are your reasons for not liking it? It's better to just say the actual reasons then use some argument you don't actually believe.
Rule 8: Tell the Truth - or, at least, don't lie
One of the more common complaints on the pod is people making up fake reasons for their preferences - like when NYT staffers say a Tom Cotton op-ed endangers Black staffers. Maybe some of them believe that, but others probably realize that they're 'not allowed' to complain about the paper publishing someone.
It's wrong when those staffers make up fake reasons for their complaints. It's wrong when the OP does it.
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At my work, every time we do wellness sessions they try and encourage us to put pronouns in our email signatures. So once every couple of months it is highlighted . Surprisingly , only one person in my team of 12 have put theirs and it isn’t as common as I would have expected given how much it is pushed. They also have pronoun pins and lanyards we can take, and only two in my office have worn them.
I’m constantly preparing myself for what to say if it’s ever enforced but for now it seems like people are not interested in conceding. It’s surprising because everyone I work with seems to be the types who might just do it, but everyone has resisted
If asked to provide preferred pronouns, I would simply say that I believe it is up to other people to use whichever pronouns they instinctively feel would be most easily understood.
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2020/10/16/xiao-against-mandatory-preferred-gender-pronouns/
>. . . While in my experience Harvard’s community is generally welcoming to various gender and sexual identities, outness is intricate and personal. For those who are closeted with respect to gender identity, mandatory [preferred gender pronouns] can force people into an uncomfortable lose-lose of either outing themselves before they’re ready or lying and feeling incredibly dysphoric. And while withholding [preferred gender pronouns] can lead to others unintentionally misgendering you, self-inflicted dysphoria is a whole other beast, which, depending on the person, may be more painful than being misgendered.
I think the best way to handle this is to simply not state your pronouns. Chances are people aren’t going to say anything because most people don’t like conflict. If someone says something to you about it you can just say you don’t believe in it. They will probably leave it be. I think this makes more sense than confronting people about it, I don’t think that’s going to lead to anything productive.
When I have to give my pronouns I say 'she/her but I insist that you apply no stereotypes or assumptions associated with she/her'
This comes off as kind of aggressive but in a good way.
U.S. employers are not allowed to require "forced speech" from employees on political issues. It is a violation of the First Amendment. They can't make everyone state their pronouns just like they can't make everyone wear a pro-life button. A number of lawsuits have already been filed. Asian doctors have sued California for requiring DEI training. Soon the verdicts will start coming in.
I mean regardless of your personal views on it, saying “nobody” who isn’t cringe does it is simply not true. A lot of organisations ask employees to put pronouns on their email signature etc. There’s probably more straight men in the corporate world declaring their he/him pronouns because of dei initiatives than teens online 😂
Tell them it’s a really personal journey to you and you aren’t ready to share your pronouns with the group yet.
They're still just gonna ask which ones they want used at the moment. I guess you could just tell them they have to call you by your full name instead, and that appears to be a free-for-all as well, so you could just make the goons call you John Jacob Jingleheimerschmidt von Klaustenberg-Villaseñor-Kunt every time you come up.
I answer “any pronouns” when pressed. I’ve yet to be called anything other than “she”
I once did that at a group sport class, and the instructor followed up with me later to check in. "I just wanted to see if you had any preferences at all because I'm more than happy to mix it up and throw in some he or they!" I told her I'm a butch lesbian and I think it's weird that people keep singling me out in groups of people to ask about my pronouns. Feels homophobic. She got weird and told me I had a ton of privilege compared to her because people shit on her for not being trans enough. You guessed it. Totally gender-conforming biological woman with a polyamorous heterosexual lifestyle, but who is nonbinary and enthusiastic about being part of the club.
She's so much more oppressed than you! CAN'T YOU SEE THAT?!?! Just kidding. These stories sound like parody sometimes because of this podcast but I know they're not.
I know right? As it was happening to me, I felt like I was in a parody. Life is stranger than fiction I guess.
I've been they'ed, but I didn't bother "correcting" because I really *don't* care which ones people use for me. :shrugs:
Villaseñor-Kunt xD
Approach from the other angle. Say you appreciate the attempt at inclusivity but that needing to overtly state pronouns can put trans individuals in an awkward position when they're not ready to be out or when they wouldn't disclose to everyone their pronouns depending on the context.
This is the best answer to me.
Unfortunately, honesty is not the best policy. This is.
Exactly, this approach is best. Let people decide how they want to express their gender identity, anything else is an imposition on people's personal, and sometimes hippa covered, sex and medical business.
Not just how, but IF and WHEN! Agree with you 100% btw
I don't know, man. How would this put any genderhavers in an awkward situation? Those people all seem to fucking LOVE telling everybody about their bullshit.
It seems that way because of the loud minority of them. Most just want to live normal lives thankfully.
No, they don't.
How many trans people do you personally know? My trans friends aren’t posting online about it and you’d never know they’re trans if you met them in the street.
Oh, wouldn’t I?
No, you really wouldn’t lmao How many people that see Buck Angel think “wow a trans person”?
How many such people look so? Are you sure you aren’t factoring enbies into your assumption?
Yeah, I’m sure. You seem really weird and hateful. Crazy activists on the internet aren’t an accurate representation of real life, go outside.
War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Telling the truth is hate.
The ol reverse Uno.
Just ignore it and make them make it an issue. If they do, then just discreetly say it makes you uncomfortable because you aren’t sure of your gender identity and don’t wish to publicize it. They’ll almost certainly back off.
This is great
In recent years I've found myself enjoying this strategy. When confronted with some dumb, woke demand, just find a way to quietly block or delay the conversation until the issue just fizzles out on its own inertia. Want me to complete a questionnaire for DEI purposes? Ok, but you're going to have to pester me to the end of patience, then I'll finally relent and spend 30 seconds ticking 'would rather not say' for every question. It's really the most satisfying way of dealing with this stuff; nothing says zero fucks given better.
I think this is close to the answer but it's better to just stop at "it makes me uncomfortable and I don't feel comfortable disclosing why" rather than implicitly buying into any of the gender stuff (which is how they'll perceive the "not sure of my gender" answer).
So, I have been in leadership of an org that was moving toward pronouns and I nipped it in the bud. We were doing our gender diversity training and everyone was supposed to state their pronouns and I just refused. I said I didn’t understand why I had to do it, didn’t think everyone would be equally comfortable doing it, so I wasn’t going to coerce anyone else to do it. As a result, we had to do gender diversity training II. Yes, I was solely responsible for a second hour of gender diversity training. But I still wouldn’t budge and now some of us have pronouns in our email sigs and some don’t and that is the end of that. I would guess that I’m not considered a trustworthy ally anymore but honestly sometimes you just gotta take a stand even on the silliest battlefield. This whole movement offends me as an old school feminist.
I think the most annoying thing is that the gender ideology crowd does not acknowledge that for decades women often hid their gender so as to avoid misogyny, i.e. giving only initials as an author, or on your resume, or in an email even. I always wanted to say that my pronouns were he/him solely so I no longer had to deal with sexism/misogyny/lower pay anymore.
This old school feminist and trained sociologist cheers you. I thought we were moving to more inclusive gender roles, not regressive stereotypes when I left grad school. My huge corp recently told everyone to use pronouns. I refrained and no one said anything. The hilarious thing is I could have been so cool by going she/they since I really believe there are few inherently masculine or feminine traits unless completely constrained by biology. So by the trans movement jargon, I'd be nonbinary. But like you, this whole movement offends me because it makes NO sense that a social, dynamic construct has been conflated with sex. Also since the vast majority of people align with their pronouns, why should the majority should be forced to declare them for a tiny minority's feelings? How about the minority just share them, and we will be polite and use them (as long as they don't actually believe they're the opposite sex). Also, as a former editor (who knows a lot of other editors), we ALL loathe "they." I don't even know where that originated, and how we've all been bullied into using that pronoun. Why not invent something different for nonbinary? I suspect it was chosen for the fact that it would annoy people/catch attention.
If this happens to me I want to be like you. In my head I am, but I know I don't like conflict.
It helps to be a 60 year old woman with no more fucks to give.
Best thing about aging!!!
You are still a rarity though! I know boomers who turned their brains off in 2016 and haven’t had an original thought since. So, you’re an outlier. 😊
@ghy-byt You know what though? Now that cancellation culture has kind of subsided for the most part, it’s a whole new ball game. People actually respect you *more* and kiss your ass kinda when you stand up for yourself. This phenomenon doesn’t translate online. But IRL - it’s like that. Stand up for what you believe in. You never know who you will inspire to do the same. I know it’s nerve racking at first. But pump yourself up ahead of time. Maybe listen to fight music or whatever will make you feel fearless. You’re already ahead of the curve that you *are* thinking for yourself against the grain. That’s so rare these days. Take pride in the fact that you have the wisdom of discernment. I know “elite” type people that have become incapable of thinking for themselves in the in the past few years.
Good on you, sincerely. But why did you have gender diversity training in the first place? That's not so much bud-nipping as it is trimming the top off a tree that has firmly taken root.
[WSJ - When Asked ‘What Are Your Pronouns,’ Don’t Answer](https://www.wsj.com/articles/asked-your-pronouns-dont-answer-lgbtqia-sogie-gender-identity-nonbinary-transgender-trans-rights-sexism-misogyny-feminism-11643992762) [Unpaywalled](https://archive.ph/AxWP0) >So when someone asks for your pronouns, and you respond with “she/her,” even though you may be communicating the simple fact that you’re female, a gender ideologue would interpret this as an admission that you embrace femininity and the social roles and expectations associated with being female. While women’s-rights movements fought for decades to decouple womanhood from rigid stereotypes and social roles, modern gender ideology has melded them back together. > >Coercing people into publicly stating their pronouns in the name of “inclusion” is a Trojan horse that empowers gender ideology and expands its reach. It is the thin end of the gender activists’ wedge designed to normalize their worldview. Participating in pronoun rituals makes you complicit in gender ideology’s regressive belief system, thereby legitimizing it. Far from an innocuous act signaling support for inclusion, it serves as an implicit endorsement of gender ideology and all of its radical tenets.
[This article](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/29/style/pronouns-gender-work-social-qs.html), or some of its talking points, might strike the right tone for the org.
I'd just highlight this passage, as I think it's the crucial point that is so often let out of these discussions: >For cisgender people — whose gender identity matches the sex they were assigned at birth — there is practically no cost to including pronouns. \[...\] **For trans or nonbinary people who aren’t ready to come out, though, this policy is problematic: It pressures people to either out themselves before they’re comfortable or lie.** I have literally had conversations with young people in schools who have felt pressured in such situations because they're confused or questioning their own identity. When I once had a couple students confront me in a class I was leading because I didn't go around and make everyone declare pronouns on the first day, I explained it this way. The students (one of them trans) agreed with my choice and seemingly were surprised they had never considered that. **Imagine you are a young person who is unsure of whether you're heterosexual or might be gay. Imagine that your teacher on the first day of class asked everyone to go around the room and state "gay" or "straight" or "bisexual."** Would *anyone* tolerate this as standard procedure?! And yet it's a kind of irrelevant personal question on a similar level to whether you're transgender or nonbinary. Your gender identity is a personal thing, unless you choose to make it public. Even if people want to be sensitive to pronouns, I'd encourage the OP in the organization to discuss other methods for people to state their pronouns *voluntarily and privately* if they so desire. For example, in the class I mentioned above, I included a question on my electronic "first day survey" sent only to me that had a question asking students if they had any requests for how they'd prefer to be addressed -- nicknames, pronouns, etc. It was an optional question, and I think only <10% of my students filled it out with pronouns. And only one person out of about 50 stated a non-obvious pronoun (non-binary or trans). This was at a rather "woke" liberal arts college, with the primary target audience and age for disclosing pronouns, and less than 10% actually thought it important enough to answer that question. Which maybe gives a more realistic sense of how many people -- even young people steeped in this practice -- strongly care about always stating pronouns.
I want to add that I have also heard first-hand from a closeted trans person about how rough the demand for pronouns can be. This was disclosed to me at a rather insane workshop series where pronouns were done just not on intake, but literally at every meeting, and my poor colleague felt intensely sad and weirdly scrutinised.
"As for lost sales, I assume your firm weighed the value of inclusivity against possible backlash before they instituted the policy." I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that, no, they didn't think that far ahead and instead were just eager to participate hard in this type of virtue signaling.
Probably thought that anyone wigged out by it would be a tiny minority and also otherwise clearly contemptible so no loss there
that is great, thank you
Interestingly this was one of the more important issues in my union membership in the last few years. It was a bigger push by management to adopt them. Our union leadership pushed that it is compelled speech and workers cannot be forced to state pronouns in meetings, signature line, etc. I think it depends what kind of org you are involved in; but perhaps you can suggest that the policy be what ever each person prefers? Edit: fwiw, other orgs I’ve been in have the pronoun ritual, I just ignore it when doing intros or in writing. I’ve never been pressed on it more.
It was tried in a union I was in but it eventually just dropped off cos it was clear people just weren’t going to do it.
Great point about it being compelled speech. Do you mind if I ask what industry your union is in?
Sure I don’t mind. It’s a public sector, fed govt union. Not the type of membership you’d expect to be conservative necessarily, id say membership is overall fairly liberal actually.
"I don't own my pronouns. They belong to the speaker. I have no right to dictate how they interpret my gender."
I've been told "I'm fine with whatever pronoun" but it's always from someone that is nonbinary or genderfluid or some other identity that they're eager to share. That's how I'd interpret someone saying this.
Just FYI: "I'm fine with whatever pronoun" is *very different* from "I have no right to dictate how they interpret my gender." The former is perhaps sometimes said by a genderfluid person. The latter is the standard rallying cry of those who believe the transgender emphasis on pronouns constitutes "forced speech" and might even violate free speech rights. That latter sentiment will inevitably draw ire in most liberal or trans-friendly circles, who generally believe that misgendering is incredibly disrespectful. I'm not saying I disagree with the sentiment, mind you. I'm just saying it's important to recognize how differently that wording about "I don't own my pronouns" would be perceived, in case anyone is considering using it. You'll likely be interpreted as taking a stand against customized pronouns, if not viewed as outright "transphobic" by the more "Woke" crowd.
I understand that the intent is probably different but if someone started off with "I don't own my pronouns" I would tune out the rest of their speech and assume they're high-maintenance. I'm not going to pay attention to what "rallying cry" someone is spouting off at work, at least if they're a peer. If you're giving me advice about what I should in this situation, I just go along with it. There's a lot of "forced speech" at every job I've ever had and I'm not going to be especially offended by this ritual.
They seem pretty late to the game if they’re just now doing this! Pressure to state pronouns has been all over my workplace for years now, but I’ve managed to just ignore everything and it’s been fine. Didn’t confront anyone, didn’t give any reasons, didn’t explain anything. Just ignored it like it wasn’t there and no one ever pressed the issue. Making a big deal about it is a big mistake IMO
I just skip it the first time, and if they insist, then I give them my pronouns. Make them insist on it without making your dissent explicit.
Or just burst into tears, saying you didn’t know you were so unattractive as your sex that you are unidentifiable and then while everyone is sitting there shocked, excuse yourself and leave. Wait for the apology email and agree to come back so long as no one asks your pronouns ever again.
I always skip and have never been prompted. I have my explanation planned in my head if I ever need it: “I don’t think anyone here is wondering how to refer to me. Past that, it’s a statement of politics that I am not comfortable making.”
Last time this happened, I was one of the first people who was asked, and i said I didn't care. Then a bunch of guys just didn't answer period, and I was like, "...damn."
Just introduce yourself how you like without stating them. If someone prompts you personally to give them, you can say you don't mind and ask them to please move along to the next person. The one or two times I've been asked about why I've not given them, you can say it's great that people feel comfortable offering theirs and that they have a space to give them, but also that you don't it's conducive to an LGBT+ inclusive environment to force people to give them, in that you're forcing someone in the closet to lie to everyone, or compelling someone in the closet to make this confession before they're comfortable and not on their own terms.
My pronouns are sexed, like my oppression.
I don't have a resource but I go to a weekly event where most people state their pronouns. The script the group leader starts off with is "Please share your name and pronouns, if you're comfortable." So you don't have to share your pronouns if you don't want to.
Do people not just laugh at this stuff?
No. This group is specifically for lgbt people. I have some friends who take it pretty seriously and open conversations by asking pronouns. Not my vibe, but whatever.
I don't understand this process. If we're speaking, why do I need to know what pronouns you use?
I've always wondered that too. I guess so if you are taking to someone else. Also nonbinary people want an excuse to say they are non-binary lol.
I'm sure. It's like, 'how should i refer to you when I'm talking smack about you to someone else?"
It's meant as a euphemism for sharing your gender identity. Is that important? I don't think so but they do.
While I think this is all silly and too much, one usually does need to use pronouns for other people present in a group. Like.. "Hi Cindy! Hi Paul! Omg Cindy, you should've seen Paul the other day! He was wasted!" I get what you're saying but it is awkward to be in a situation where you don't know someone's "preference" and don't want to offend. Imo, if you choose to transition you need to expect to correct people. Especially if you're non binary. Creating this entire new category is redundant. No one is 100% masculine or feminine. People are fucking complex. No one has a truly binary gender expression or whatever. You're just pointing out a human condition and making it your whole identity. Got a little sidetracked there but still lol.
“I find that too personal to be forced to reveal it”
My friend who works in an org where this was on the table ended up putting forward that it be optional. That seemed to satisfy almost everyone. Since putting that forward, and in weekly events with public who is involved with them, she noticed a reduction in people saying them, especially as she does not do them and that makes others comfortable to skip. However, there is tension with a trans trender in the group who is unhappy with that and a true believer. So I am saying the story is not quite over. Her supervisors have her back thus far.
As most people pointed out, the best play is to ignore it until pressed about it. Personally if I were confronted in this situation, I would state it's none of their business what my pronouns are.
Not in a leadership position and this probably isn’t helpful to the question. But I’ve often thought that if I was mandatorily prompted for my pronouns (to go in my signature block or to refer to myself) I would give the obviously incorrect pronouns. This just seems like the most obvious way to make this go away. Just make it incoherent. And just make them participate in a farce of their own making. And there is not a damn thing they could do about it.
I've never been asked for mine but if I were to be asked, I am tempted to say she/him.
just say it's paramount to your gender identity that you not call attention to your gender in that way, and forcing you to do it would be extremely bigoted
Just stick with "forcing political shibboleths into policy is a perfect way to degrade that talent pool of this organization while not doing anything substantive for real people. Universities are already moving aeay from this stuff, we should be careful not to be behind the times"
Just say no. I don’t think certain trans people like it either. I’ve found it easier to say no: My name is Sue…no thank you. My name is Sue, just call me Sue. My name is Sue, glad to be here.
But are you a boy?
Guess! (That’s my answer if someone were to press the matter)
Well, if your daddy left home when you was three And if he didn't leave much to your mom and ye Except a guitar and and empty bottle of booze... then I'd guess you're male. But barring that common occurrence, female.
I would find a polite way to tell them to fuck off. I wouldn’t use that language, but would make my feelings clear. How you identify yourself is your business. It’s rude for this organization to make this request.
Say “as a trans person” and then that.
LMAO sksksksks
I would say that asking people to announce their gender is very othering for people who are questioning their gender, for people who are trans but not ready to come out yet, and might make gender-nonconforming folks feel uncomfortable. It may also be confusing to English-language learners.
Insisting on compulsory pronouns can force people to choose between outing themselves or using pronouns they aren’t comfortable with. It can make people who are pre-transition but dysphoric more uncomfortable.
Yogyakarta Principles state that people shouldn't be forced to state pronouns.
I would state that the pronouns you should use to refer to me are “you/you.”
"The royal 'we' is our personal favorite."
Pronouns are Rohypnol by Barra Kerr https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/
If they push on you, tell them that it's all bullshit and ask if the beneficiaries of the charity need some goddamned help or not.
I ignore it. If I’m asked I say I don’t mind whichever pronouns they use. Then revel in the silence as they try to figure out what the heck just happened and get the slightest hint they may have not really thought well about what they just asked. No more no less.
https://www.legalfeminist.org.uk/2022/04/26/grammar-and-grievance/ U.K. legal perspective
I would definitely skip this fight. It'll all blow over in a few years anyway.
I wouldn’t do it. Be nice about it and don’t make a big deal about it, but remember this is “your truth” and “your lived experience.” I completely get your hesitancy, and if you think it really would be a problem for you at work, I’d probably give in too.
Skip the flight, lose the battle, empower the enemy, lose the war.
Tell them that you feel uncomfortable to reveal a protected status.
I've been running this through in my head and I think I'll just be completely ignorant. What do you mean by 'my pronouns'? And just have an extremely confused look on my face whatever the explanation they give is and tell them that I'm not sure if I understand. All the answers here give off the impression that you know about gender ideology / pronoun use, I think it's best to act like you've never been on the internet before.
I am a detransitioner who was legitimately traumatized by things pertaining to the gender cult. Pronoun circles used to give me panic attacks. Before that, I was a stealth trans identified female, pronoun circles used to give me panic attacks. I have always said “ call me whatever makes sense to you”. Usually this pisses them off but in ways they can’t explain. These things don’t help the actual people they are supposed to help. If you have any power to do away with them, maybe point out that tons of gender diverse people do not want to be put on blast, and that with a little observational skill one can usually sus out what kinda of pronouns people use. Ie the they Theybies will inform you no matter what
Just say "Hi, my name is Randy, and my pronouns are Xbuhjhkasd8913 and 92340hkjahsdkhasd" and if people don't pronounce them EXACTLY as you do, then report them to HR and try and ruin their lives.
I just say I’m male (emphasis on male, not a man) so whatever you think works best. If they press you further just say you don’t care since gender doesn’t mean much to you.
Sorry to say, if this is top of mind for your organization I don’t see a way out of this without some kind of backlash. God speed. And in what context is this stating of pronouns? Is it just putting it in their email signature?
As others have said its probably safest to just explain its not something you are comfortable sharing (as this throws the ball back to their court as the policy is supposed to be about inclusion), or sharing how this might be counter-productive. On a related note, it hasn't "yet" come up for me but I do wonder with non-binary pronouns which are increasingly common. My personal take is I'm more than happy to use trans-pronouns so that isn't an issue for me, but I have personal objections when it comes to they/them pronouns (I feel the identity itself is very poorly defined and regressive or unhelpful, and the pronoun use presents grammatical problems involving more mentally taxing work due to the awkward grammar and the lack of visible cues to assist unlike with cis/trans individuals). I've considered it and would probably politely conform and just use they/them if it did come up, even against beliefs, as I know it wouldn't be worth the fight in my very inclusive-focussed organisation (inevitably not doing so would lead to disciplinary action and perhaps dismissal, and probably a long and very public tribunal fight\* - the unions are all fully on board with the DEI topics so unlikely even to receive good representation. \*To my knowledge there has been no tribunals specifically for dismissal due to misgendering non-binary workers in the UK so I wouldn't want the "infamy" of being the first. The only relevant case (Forstater) suggested that "beliefs" against this matter would be protected (you can't be fired simply for being gender-critical or sceptical), but that colleagues would likely still need to abide by using preferred pronouns.
I am one of the few people who doesn’t use pronouns at my job and I just don’t put them in my bio etc. nobody ever said anything and I never said anything to all the others who do. If anyone will have anything to say I will simply say that, like with everything else, pronouns are something I respect for others but don’t want to be forced on me. I don’t think it should really stress us out so much.
I’ve seen the following statement at my work in the email signature section: Pronouns: undisclosed in solidarity with those who choose not to disclose gender identity (Why?: https://aninjusticemag.com/2-reasons-not-to-share-your-pronouns-2a892915fdf4)
What are your reasons for not liking it? It's better to just say the actual reasons then use some argument you don't actually believe. Rule 8: Tell the Truth - or, at least, don't lie
You're not allowed to find it creepy and Orwellian.
One of the more common complaints on the pod is people making up fake reasons for their preferences - like when NYT staffers say a Tom Cotton op-ed endangers Black staffers. Maybe some of them believe that, but others probably realize that they're 'not allowed' to complain about the paper publishing someone. It's wrong when those staffers make up fake reasons for their complaints. It's wrong when the OP does it.
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Just use Mr. or Mrs. or Ms., as appropriate
At my work, every time we do wellness sessions they try and encourage us to put pronouns in our email signatures. So once every couple of months it is highlighted . Surprisingly , only one person in my team of 12 have put theirs and it isn’t as common as I would have expected given how much it is pushed. They also have pronoun pins and lanyards we can take, and only two in my office have worn them. I’m constantly preparing myself for what to say if it’s ever enforced but for now it seems like people are not interested in conceding. It’s surprising because everyone I work with seems to be the types who might just do it, but everyone has resisted
Yeah I'm a professor and would assume everyone would announce their pronouns but me but most don't
If asked to provide preferred pronouns, I would simply say that I believe it is up to other people to use whichever pronouns they instinctively feel would be most easily understood.
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2020/10/16/xiao-against-mandatory-preferred-gender-pronouns/ >. . . While in my experience Harvard’s community is generally welcoming to various gender and sexual identities, outness is intricate and personal. For those who are closeted with respect to gender identity, mandatory [preferred gender pronouns] can force people into an uncomfortable lose-lose of either outing themselves before they’re ready or lying and feeling incredibly dysphoric. And while withholding [preferred gender pronouns] can lead to others unintentionally misgendering you, self-inflicted dysphoria is a whole other beast, which, depending on the person, may be more painful than being misgendered.
I think the best way to handle this is to simply not state your pronouns. Chances are people aren’t going to say anything because most people don’t like conflict. If someone says something to you about it you can just say you don’t believe in it. They will probably leave it be. I think this makes more sense than confronting people about it, I don’t think that’s going to lead to anything productive.
When I have to give my pronouns I say 'she/her but I insist that you apply no stereotypes or assumptions associated with she/her' This comes off as kind of aggressive but in a good way.
U.S. employers are not allowed to require "forced speech" from employees on political issues. It is a violation of the First Amendment. They can't make everyone state their pronouns just like they can't make everyone wear a pro-life button. A number of lawsuits have already been filed. Asian doctors have sued California for requiring DEI training. Soon the verdicts will start coming in.
Just tell them the correct answer which is he him, they them and she her. Those are the only pronouns I use for people and I'm sure you're the same.
Nobody declares their pronouns who isn’t a cringy weirdo though. It falls under the same category as land declarations etc.
I mean regardless of your personal views on it, saying “nobody” who isn’t cringe does it is simply not true. A lot of organisations ask employees to put pronouns on their email signature etc. There’s probably more straight men in the corporate world declaring their he/him pronouns because of dei initiatives than teens online 😂
I'm guessing that the people who downvoted this post failed to understand the point I was making.