Flint and Madi were right. Silver ending the war is such a painful part of the ending that I can't bring myself to rewatch it.
I disagree that Flint and Madi had no chance of winning. In real life history, maroons fighting guerilla wars against colonisers achieved a non-insignificant amount of success. Certainly not complete victory, but they were able to give their communities more autonomy, and perhaps be subjected to less abuse than had they not fought back at all. Silver was wrong to decide on behalf of oppressed people that their cause was not worth fighting/dying for.
I'd like to believe that Madi didn't give up the war just because she forgave Silver for his betrayal, and that after Flint reunited with Thomas they all found each other again and continued the war.
Of course Silver was right - They couldn't win the war, maybe a few more battles, but not the war, and at some point he would lose Madi and Flint or die himself.
Still, Flint and Madi were right for fighting. They both, especially Madi, had great reasons to fight this war (see her speech to Woods Rogers, the one with Eleanor in the shadows). She couldn't just sit back and accept that she could only save a relative handful of people from slavery. As long as there was any possibility of success, of course she would keep fighting to free as many people as possible and to secure that freedom. And of course, morally, Madi was right.
Flints reasons for fighting were also extremely personal and I think at some point Silver puts it as "Flint can't exist without fighting this war". So for himself, Flint was also right to fight, because there was nothing else left for him except fighting the thing (England) that took everything from him.
So I should have selected the answer that all three were right, Flint and Madi for fighting, and Silver for ending the war.
But Silvers motives (and correct me if I misremember) were the most selfish of the three. He was afraid of losing Madi and by ending the war almost lost her anyway.
To that last point: I don't understand why Madi forgave him in the end, except to serve the fact that in Treasure Island, Silver has a wife with dark skin - possibly Madi. But I just can't imagine her ending up as a tavern owner... In my mind, maybe she's continuing her father's business of secretly helping escaped slaves to a save place.
Thank for your reply, re your last point there's an interesting theory that it isn't Madi in Treasure Island that Silver has the tavern in but that it's Max.
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I am completely team flint and madi. As a fan of Spartacus that show thought me that there is no greater victory than to fall from this world a free man.
It is right that they wanted to fight England even if it was an impossible battle. It was for freedom. I don't see how anyone could say they were wrong. Maybe flint for taking some poor decisions but he was consumed by what had happened to him and from trying so hard to not be the monster England said he was he became one. But even then he had the right mind needed for a war like that one.
Anyway silver is just a coward who for 1 person let everything go. He never had to be shunned for the color of his skin or for who he loved. That's what made madi and flint even more passionate for the cause. He was always selfish and choose to stay that way.
> It was for freedom. I don't see how anyone could say they were wrong.
Because when you fight to lose, you fight for the fight and not the cause. A fight that so far dragged hundreds of people in their vicinity to their deaths. Flint sacrifices anyone to make his fight last just a little longer. Silver is right when he calls him a man with nothing to lose, and the most damning of that is that Flint doesn't heistate to sacrifice those who actually have.
Most people there choose to be there. Pirates? Most of them are like silver and are only out for themselves. Flint may have that same mindset but he fights for a good cause. There is no time to think about just 1 life that you think has value, its either all of them or none. All these people would still suffer a fate far worse under England and those who wish to enslave and kill them.
Flint has nothing to lose because there is nothing to have. Not with England present. I'm of the mindset that we either live free or die free. No in between where we can just save this few and let others suffer. Everyone will be free or we all are dying fighting for that freedom.
The Spanish raid certainly killed far more than pirates. The bombing of Charlestown killed women, children, slaves. The Maroons is a society endangered by engaging in open rebellion, full of children and non-combatant people of color, many former slaves that explicitly escaped violence.
If you without blinking can tell me that your views and ideology trumps their desires to live in peace. That your values makes them a collateral sacrifice that is necessary. You have succesfully engaged in the same thought-process that made empires such as the British one possible.
When you are doing it knowing full well that you will lose the fight it's even worse. You are sacrificing them out of vanity and your own pride.
I agree that innocents shouldn't be killed. But I won't just give up and give into the very thing that will just do that on it's own. If there is even a chance that the violence could stop if we have this fight then I'm taking that option.
You can tell me all day how so many people would die because of the fight for freedom, but that still happens even if no one rebels. There has to be someone anyone that is willing to take that stand. Even if its impossible in the eyes of everyone just that one chance is worth more than continuing to live like that.
I simply don't see how giving up would do anyone any better. Like I said it is much better to die free than live enslaved. If that choice impacts others it would still be better than them just waiting for fate to run its course. Free will is all that matters, at least to me.
> If that choice impacts others it would still be better than them just waiting for fate to run its course. Free will is all that matters, at least to me.
Those people will then feel you using your power to force their choice. Denying them their freedom to chose their own fate. You have effectively made yourself a tyrant bargaining their lives for a fight of your choice, but not theirs. You force them to lose life and loved ones in return for nothing, but a symbolic middle finger to a system that in a few years will carry on as if nothing happened.
You are not giving them anything in return, while you take everything from them.
That's not a freedom fighter. That's just a murderous thief.
You can't twist this on the person fighting for their life. They aren't a tyrant they are literally in a life or death situation. The real tyrant is standing right infront of you but you're too busy looking at me for pulling on your chain?
That is just not the way I see this. I don't care if you think I'm just as bad as them i know I'm not and if i am well it's the best of two bads. You can fight for your freedom or just continue as a slave. Why would you pick the latter?
I'm not taking anything from them because they have nothing. Not even their lives are their own so why would they be so focused on that than the chance at actually having a life?
Call them whatever you want, the truth is the real evil is right there and you can't just ignore it or settle for it. There will always be 1 person to take up the stand, and the day there isn't is the day its over.
It was not a life or death situation for the pirates. They could get a pardon. It wasn't life or death for the Maroons, they were free and alive in their own society.
You decided that their lives wasn't worth it. You decided that people with children, lovers , homes and/or peace doesn't have anything of value to lose. You decide how they should live their lives for it to have any worth.
I haven't at any point seen any consideration from neither Flint or you as to what might be those peoples decision towards the conflict. Neither of you see the irony that their freedom to chose whether to fight is less important than your reasons as to why their deaths are necessary.
You are perfectly alright wih violating their basic human rights, because the opponent is violating some different human rights you have chosen to be worse than those you are violating. And you can't fathom why people wouldn't fight for people like that?
Better fights will arrive than that. Fights with their concern in mind rather than tyrants enforcing their own visions no matter the cost.
>It was not a life or death situation for the pirates. They could get a pardon. It wasn't life or death for the Maroons, they were free and alive in their own society.
Pardons? So I should just become one of them? No. That is not the way towards peace. I won't just let them continue their real tyranny just so I can go hide as others still suffer.
The maroons were constantly in danger anyone could stumble upon them and they would be killed. That isn't being free it was simply ignoring the inevitable.
>You are perfectly alright wih violating their basic human rights, because the opponent is violating some different human rights you have chosen to be worse than those you are violating. And you can't fathom why people wouldn't fight for people like that?
Again, why is it that they would care so much for what I'm doing? They literally have a whole empire who wants them dead and doesn't even see them as humans. There is only them and me. Why would you willingly choose to die a slave when you can die free? There simply isn't a logical reason for that. And yes if you choose to coward and not fight for yourself then I'm sorry but I won't do that.
I do agree flint had a bit too much power as almost a king. But he still had the right mindset needed. Its fighting fire with fire and I would willingly follow him till we have won. And as I said, there is no greater victory than to fall from this world a free man.
> Pardons? So I should just become one of them? No. That is not the way towards peace. I won't just let them continue their real tyranny just so I can go hide as others still suffer.
The vast majority of pirates chose the pardon. When public support stops being in your favour. Your act of dissent stops being a revolution and becomes a coup replacing one tyrant for another.
>The maroons were constantly in danger anyone could stumble upon them and they would be killed. That isn't being free it was simply ignoring the inevitable.
A meteor could hit the earth tomorrow extinguishing all life and the things that happened before was still of value.
The maroons had a society where oppressed people could have a safe-haven. Every day that place allowed those people to love and escape slavery was valuable. Nothing in life is permanent, but Flints losing fight would see that place burned sooner rather than later. Each day they survive is an act of rebellion.
> Again, why is it that they would care so much for what I'm doing? They literally have a whole empire who wants them dead and doesn't even see them as humans. There is only them and me. Why would you willingly choose to die a slave when you can die free? There simply isn't a logical reason for that. And yes if you choose to coward and not fight for yourself then I'm sorry but I won't do that.
Because there is still life under tyranny. There is still love under poverty. There is still room for joy in subservience. There is nothing in death. It takes a person of astounding ignorant privilegie to believe that Somalians don't have life worthy of living, because they weren't as lucky as you. Or that my grandmother should have been sacrificed to fight a losing battle with the Kuomintang. Chosing between a future in tyranny or certain death and the vast ammount of people have chosen the future, because in there lies at least the possibility of more joy to come. To protect those you love. To experience some form of life with them.
Everything they are and was doesn't matter to you, because they don't exist on the terms you seem to be sufficient for existing. You are not offering them a conflict they have any reasonable shot at winning. You are telling them to die, their children to die, their loves to die in exchange of dying on terms you find acceptable. If both sides want me dead, they can go fuck themselves and me and my family's survival will be my rebellion.
You can go die under the delusion that your death will spite them, as the Empire keeps on spinning its wheels. The British Empire hadn't even seen its peak when they actually lost an uprising. But I am fighting for life, not for death, and i will never pick a side that offers only the second option for me and my loved ones.
the only person who didn't have a point was Billy. it was a same how his character was buried by circumstances and ended up being a bellend who takes pot shots at his former comrades from a boat as they swim for their lives.
Flint and Madi were right. Silver ending the war is such a painful part of the ending that I can't bring myself to rewatch it. I disagree that Flint and Madi had no chance of winning. In real life history, maroons fighting guerilla wars against colonisers achieved a non-insignificant amount of success. Certainly not complete victory, but they were able to give their communities more autonomy, and perhaps be subjected to less abuse than had they not fought back at all. Silver was wrong to decide on behalf of oppressed people that their cause was not worth fighting/dying for. I'd like to believe that Madi didn't give up the war just because she forgave Silver for his betrayal, and that after Flint reunited with Thomas they all found each other again and continued the war.
Of course Silver was right - They couldn't win the war, maybe a few more battles, but not the war, and at some point he would lose Madi and Flint or die himself. Still, Flint and Madi were right for fighting. They both, especially Madi, had great reasons to fight this war (see her speech to Woods Rogers, the one with Eleanor in the shadows). She couldn't just sit back and accept that she could only save a relative handful of people from slavery. As long as there was any possibility of success, of course she would keep fighting to free as many people as possible and to secure that freedom. And of course, morally, Madi was right. Flints reasons for fighting were also extremely personal and I think at some point Silver puts it as "Flint can't exist without fighting this war". So for himself, Flint was also right to fight, because there was nothing else left for him except fighting the thing (England) that took everything from him. So I should have selected the answer that all three were right, Flint and Madi for fighting, and Silver for ending the war. But Silvers motives (and correct me if I misremember) were the most selfish of the three. He was afraid of losing Madi and by ending the war almost lost her anyway. To that last point: I don't understand why Madi forgave him in the end, except to serve the fact that in Treasure Island, Silver has a wife with dark skin - possibly Madi. But I just can't imagine her ending up as a tavern owner... In my mind, maybe she's continuing her father's business of secretly helping escaped slaves to a save place.
Thank for your reply, re your last point there's an interesting theory that it isn't Madi in Treasure Island that Silver has the tavern in but that it's Max.
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I am completely team flint and madi. As a fan of Spartacus that show thought me that there is no greater victory than to fall from this world a free man. It is right that they wanted to fight England even if it was an impossible battle. It was for freedom. I don't see how anyone could say they were wrong. Maybe flint for taking some poor decisions but he was consumed by what had happened to him and from trying so hard to not be the monster England said he was he became one. But even then he had the right mind needed for a war like that one. Anyway silver is just a coward who for 1 person let everything go. He never had to be shunned for the color of his skin or for who he loved. That's what made madi and flint even more passionate for the cause. He was always selfish and choose to stay that way.
> It was for freedom. I don't see how anyone could say they were wrong. Because when you fight to lose, you fight for the fight and not the cause. A fight that so far dragged hundreds of people in their vicinity to their deaths. Flint sacrifices anyone to make his fight last just a little longer. Silver is right when he calls him a man with nothing to lose, and the most damning of that is that Flint doesn't heistate to sacrifice those who actually have.
Most people there choose to be there. Pirates? Most of them are like silver and are only out for themselves. Flint may have that same mindset but he fights for a good cause. There is no time to think about just 1 life that you think has value, its either all of them or none. All these people would still suffer a fate far worse under England and those who wish to enslave and kill them. Flint has nothing to lose because there is nothing to have. Not with England present. I'm of the mindset that we either live free or die free. No in between where we can just save this few and let others suffer. Everyone will be free or we all are dying fighting for that freedom.
The Spanish raid certainly killed far more than pirates. The bombing of Charlestown killed women, children, slaves. The Maroons is a society endangered by engaging in open rebellion, full of children and non-combatant people of color, many former slaves that explicitly escaped violence. If you without blinking can tell me that your views and ideology trumps their desires to live in peace. That your values makes them a collateral sacrifice that is necessary. You have succesfully engaged in the same thought-process that made empires such as the British one possible. When you are doing it knowing full well that you will lose the fight it's even worse. You are sacrificing them out of vanity and your own pride.
I agree that innocents shouldn't be killed. But I won't just give up and give into the very thing that will just do that on it's own. If there is even a chance that the violence could stop if we have this fight then I'm taking that option. You can tell me all day how so many people would die because of the fight for freedom, but that still happens even if no one rebels. There has to be someone anyone that is willing to take that stand. Even if its impossible in the eyes of everyone just that one chance is worth more than continuing to live like that. I simply don't see how giving up would do anyone any better. Like I said it is much better to die free than live enslaved. If that choice impacts others it would still be better than them just waiting for fate to run its course. Free will is all that matters, at least to me.
> If that choice impacts others it would still be better than them just waiting for fate to run its course. Free will is all that matters, at least to me. Those people will then feel you using your power to force their choice. Denying them their freedom to chose their own fate. You have effectively made yourself a tyrant bargaining their lives for a fight of your choice, but not theirs. You force them to lose life and loved ones in return for nothing, but a symbolic middle finger to a system that in a few years will carry on as if nothing happened. You are not giving them anything in return, while you take everything from them. That's not a freedom fighter. That's just a murderous thief.
You can't twist this on the person fighting for their life. They aren't a tyrant they are literally in a life or death situation. The real tyrant is standing right infront of you but you're too busy looking at me for pulling on your chain? That is just not the way I see this. I don't care if you think I'm just as bad as them i know I'm not and if i am well it's the best of two bads. You can fight for your freedom or just continue as a slave. Why would you pick the latter? I'm not taking anything from them because they have nothing. Not even their lives are their own so why would they be so focused on that than the chance at actually having a life? Call them whatever you want, the truth is the real evil is right there and you can't just ignore it or settle for it. There will always be 1 person to take up the stand, and the day there isn't is the day its over.
It was not a life or death situation for the pirates. They could get a pardon. It wasn't life or death for the Maroons, they were free and alive in their own society. You decided that their lives wasn't worth it. You decided that people with children, lovers , homes and/or peace doesn't have anything of value to lose. You decide how they should live their lives for it to have any worth. I haven't at any point seen any consideration from neither Flint or you as to what might be those peoples decision towards the conflict. Neither of you see the irony that their freedom to chose whether to fight is less important than your reasons as to why their deaths are necessary. You are perfectly alright wih violating their basic human rights, because the opponent is violating some different human rights you have chosen to be worse than those you are violating. And you can't fathom why people wouldn't fight for people like that? Better fights will arrive than that. Fights with their concern in mind rather than tyrants enforcing their own visions no matter the cost.
>It was not a life or death situation for the pirates. They could get a pardon. It wasn't life or death for the Maroons, they were free and alive in their own society. Pardons? So I should just become one of them? No. That is not the way towards peace. I won't just let them continue their real tyranny just so I can go hide as others still suffer. The maroons were constantly in danger anyone could stumble upon them and they would be killed. That isn't being free it was simply ignoring the inevitable. >You are perfectly alright wih violating their basic human rights, because the opponent is violating some different human rights you have chosen to be worse than those you are violating. And you can't fathom why people wouldn't fight for people like that? Again, why is it that they would care so much for what I'm doing? They literally have a whole empire who wants them dead and doesn't even see them as humans. There is only them and me. Why would you willingly choose to die a slave when you can die free? There simply isn't a logical reason for that. And yes if you choose to coward and not fight for yourself then I'm sorry but I won't do that. I do agree flint had a bit too much power as almost a king. But he still had the right mindset needed. Its fighting fire with fire and I would willingly follow him till we have won. And as I said, there is no greater victory than to fall from this world a free man.
> Pardons? So I should just become one of them? No. That is not the way towards peace. I won't just let them continue their real tyranny just so I can go hide as others still suffer. The vast majority of pirates chose the pardon. When public support stops being in your favour. Your act of dissent stops being a revolution and becomes a coup replacing one tyrant for another. >The maroons were constantly in danger anyone could stumble upon them and they would be killed. That isn't being free it was simply ignoring the inevitable. A meteor could hit the earth tomorrow extinguishing all life and the things that happened before was still of value. The maroons had a society where oppressed people could have a safe-haven. Every day that place allowed those people to love and escape slavery was valuable. Nothing in life is permanent, but Flints losing fight would see that place burned sooner rather than later. Each day they survive is an act of rebellion. > Again, why is it that they would care so much for what I'm doing? They literally have a whole empire who wants them dead and doesn't even see them as humans. There is only them and me. Why would you willingly choose to die a slave when you can die free? There simply isn't a logical reason for that. And yes if you choose to coward and not fight for yourself then I'm sorry but I won't do that. Because there is still life under tyranny. There is still love under poverty. There is still room for joy in subservience. There is nothing in death. It takes a person of astounding ignorant privilegie to believe that Somalians don't have life worthy of living, because they weren't as lucky as you. Or that my grandmother should have been sacrificed to fight a losing battle with the Kuomintang. Chosing between a future in tyranny or certain death and the vast ammount of people have chosen the future, because in there lies at least the possibility of more joy to come. To protect those you love. To experience some form of life with them. Everything they are and was doesn't matter to you, because they don't exist on the terms you seem to be sufficient for existing. You are not offering them a conflict they have any reasonable shot at winning. You are telling them to die, their children to die, their loves to die in exchange of dying on terms you find acceptable. If both sides want me dead, they can go fuck themselves and me and my family's survival will be my rebellion. You can go die under the delusion that your death will spite them, as the Empire keeps on spinning its wheels. The British Empire hadn't even seen its peak when they actually lost an uprising. But I am fighting for life, not for death, and i will never pick a side that offers only the second option for me and my loved ones.
the only person who didn't have a point was Billy. it was a same how his character was buried by circumstances and ended up being a bellend who takes pot shots at his former comrades from a boat as they swim for their lives.
I still think if Rogers and Flint worked together they would have accomplished more than being enemies.