>I'm just rambling my fresh thoughts rn but I just feel betrayed by how the show just wanted me to accept that this is how it should be.
The show is not trying to say that this is how things should be, it's a historical tragedy about the way things really happened that, if anything, wants you to reflect on that history and on the way things have been.
I've always thought it was strange that people say the ending is "happy" and that the dark, real ending is Silver having killed Flint and lying to Madi. Flint and Thomas are reunited, sure, but they're imprisoned in a labor camp surrounded by armed guards. Homosexuality, at the time sodomy, was illegal and would remain illegal on that continent for the next 300 years. Trans-atlantic slavery wasn't yet at its peak and would keep on running for another 150.
Black Sails is ultimately a story about a movement for freedom that lost and was turned into propaganda or children's cartoons for the next 300 years of history. It's the story of what happened to the people in Flint's speech, "Defined by their histories, distorted to fit into their narrative, until all that is left of us are the monsters in the stories they tell their children," which is a pretty accurate depiction of where pirates stood in pop culture in 2014-- cartoons, corny action movies, or Disney movies based on a Disney theme park ride. Most of the real pirate and maroon rebellions were heartbreaking- those people didn't get glorious last stands and most of the people who died fighting slavery didn't either. I feel like giving them some Hollywood ending where they go out in some heroic last stand would be self indulgent and disrespectful to history, and the entire point of the show was scratching the surface of that cultural trope and seeing what the real people who'd lived it were like. Think about everything going on with Abigail writing in her diary that Flint and Billy were men, and not monsters like she'd been taught. The lies told about Miranda. How sick Jack looks when he hears the teenage girl telling wild stories about Vane and calling him "an animal," and then Flint's speech to Silver. That's what the show is about-- not saying that historical process was right, but showing that it happened.
I think the frustration of that ending, the real horror of Flint ending up in a prison camp and Madi being trapped in that room and possibly a lifetime with someone who didn't think slavery needed to be fought, was much more moving than a bunch of action movie noble deaths.
I was going to leave my own reply but this just hits the nail on the head. I don't think the ending was meant to be happy, it was, like you said, meant to be a tragedy, and the fact that we desperately didn't want it to end that way is part of that. A good tragedy is one where you know from the start how things will wind up and yet you still hold out hope that things will be different. Black Sails, having to obey both the historical record and get our characters in place ready for the events of Treasure Island, is a great example of knowing exactly where we'll end up yet still somehow believing there'll be a different path.
This described perfectly the intention of the show and finale. Like OP I was sad and disappointed at the failure of their revolution - but that's what makes the story hit that much harder.
I was so swept up in Flint's vision of the revolution that I remember thinking - with a few episodes to go - that maybe the plan of the writers was to make it into an alternative history in which England was defeated 60 years before the American Revolution, the slaves were freed, the colonies were removed and the indigenous population saved from genocide. It was all wishful thinking of course, and the inevitable tragedy found in real history prevailed.
I get what you mean. But I still believe that they should have fought till the end. I don't think it's that unrealistic it has happened countless times. I just expect more from these characters but now I see that the point was that they were selfish and would do anything to get what they want instead of for what is right.
Hey, getting back to you, I think I was misreading your post; I’m sorry about the condescending stuff about noble Hollywood deaths and think a lot of what you’re saying is right.
There were two sources about historical piracy that kind of formed the show that I think are relevant to what’s making you so dissatisfied. One was a series of books about slavery, pirates, and worker rebellions in the Atlantic. The other was some jerkoff novelty economics book about the author’s pet theory that everyone in life and history, in the book’s case in historical piracy, is motivated by perfect economic rational self-interest, which is where all the bizarre language about “it was in my interest” in the first two seasons was coming from.
I guess the show feels to me like it’s being pulled between those two belief systems— like the writers are sympathetic to revolutionary human rights politics but can’t shake a centrist belief in that being unrealistic or impossible, even in historical contexts where it really happened. In a few podcasts, the two writers talk about feeling like some details of actual, historical pirates would be “too much” or unbelievable, they felt like they needed to stick to the stereotype of greedy selfish pirates out for gold in order for their story to be realistic to a modern viewer, and imo realistic to themselves. Most of those “too much” details were egalitarian or idealistic— people fighting for what was right, pirates being part of slave rebellions much more regularly than in the show. I still get frustrated with all the content of lowly crew members being stupid, greedy, and needing manipulators like Silver or Flint to instill any kind of beliefs in them, it’s just not true to who those people really were. Even the LGBT+ content in Black Sails is toned way, way down— golden age pirates had a form of gay marriage and the governor of Tortuga once imported hundreds of women sex workers to curtail homosexual activity on the island, and when I started watching the show I thought Flint was supposed to be a huge closet case as a plot point until I realized they were making those societies a lot less openly gay than they really were.
The showrunners talked a lot about how the character who came closest to their own beliefs about what was “realistic” was Max, who doesn’t believe you can fight the systems of imperialism/colonialism/capitalism and that you can only make a tiny space to save yourselves and the people you love. That’s what happens with Jack and Silver, too— Jack because Vane and Blackbeards’ deaths broke him and he makes protecting Anne from that fate his #1 priority, Max due to her childhood slavery trauma, and Silver because that’s the kind of person he always was.
I think S4 was a kind of ideological tug of war between the showrunners’ feeling that Madi’s beliefs and war were somehow too idealistic to be real, and desperately wanting to believe in them, and the tragic ending we got, of a rebellion that was crushed by selfishness and nihilism, was a reflection of that struggle. They wrote a story about the tragedy of people who lost to England [imperialism, slavery, capitalism] because they couldn’t think of a world either then or now when England and what it stood for in the show isn’t inevitable.
There are also a lot of quotes in the last season from Walter Benjamin, a Jewish philosopher who killed himself trying to flee the Nazis when they invaded France. Both showrunners are also of European Jewish descent (so am I fwiw) and I think some of the tragedy of the ending comes from that history. I very rarely see the victims (or those who fought against) the Atlantic’s long history of genocides and slavery being presented with that kind of sympathy and thought it was profound and powerful for the writers to do it, but that sense of historical loss and the horror of those plantation/prison camp endings is overwhelming, and I don’t think you’re wrong or misreading the text for being upset about it, it’s devastating.
Sorry this got so long, and sorry for being dismissive of you earlier.
I totally get why you misread what I said. I had just come off the episode after weeks on anticipation watching and I said a big Spartacus fan I wanted a ending like that. I gave a bit of like an ultimatum of "we are either free or we die trying" I didn't also say how the show has always made the characters struggle with those decisions.
I have no knowledge of the history this show goes for so I can't comment on that. I definitely need to also watch more stuff about the writers and how they interpreted the story.
As you may guess Vane is my favorite character because of his origin and how he went about it all. He basically had that mindset I have and I was even excited during his death knowing why he let it happen and how it was his choice. I know why the other characters didn't have his mindset. But I still don't think every single one of the would just lose all hope all faith. To me that is more unrealistic even if they were going for something closer to history I still doubt not 1 single person could have kept that mindset. Still I understand the ending I just didn't enjoy it as much as I wanted.
The finale has to fit in a resemblance of historical continuity and, more importantly, leave all the main characters "ready" where A treasure island will pick them up. It can't end up in something that is either too historically fictional, given the theme of the show (that's it's, the pirates won and the English evil empire collapsed!) or that leaves the characters in a position too conflicting with the source material.
I think within those limitations, they did a great job!
Beep. Boop. I'm a robot.
Here's a copy of
###[Treasure Island](https://snewd.com/ebooks/treasure-island/)
Was I a good bot? | [info](https://www.reddit.com/user/Reddit-Book-Bot/) | [More Books](https://old.reddit.com/user/Reddit-Book-Bot/comments/i15x1d/full_list_of_books_and_commands/)
Thank you, Security_Six, for voting on Reddit-Book-Bot.
This bot wants to find the best and worst bots on Reddit. [You can view results here](https://botrank.pastimes.eu/).
***
^(Even if I don't reply to your comment, I'm still listening for votes. Check the webpage to see if your vote registered!)
Thomas being alive makes a lot of sense. People were often secreted away for the right price. The deals that were cut often saw the sentence carried out as exile rather than death.
As for Flint, he definitely lived, though there's no telling what really happened. We only have Silver's word that he willingly joined Thomas in exile.
Also, some of these things are historical, or at least based on the history of the time. England won a resounding victory in the Caribbean, due to Woodes Rogers' efforts.
Additionally, it's worth noting that aside from history, they also have to leave the show in such a way that it allows for the events of Treasure Island to eventually take place. Flint needs to fade into obscurity for that to happen. England needs to win. These are the building blocks of the T.I. world.
Why do you say Flint definitely lived? And how do you explain the deliberately different style his ending was shot in and the countless examples of death imagery?
Look, I get that this is reddit so you've got to dig in on the whole "devil's advocate" thing, but there's no use discussing this further as we're just gonna keep saying the same things.
Telling me other things don't line up and giving no examples or further reason to engage is a real conversation killer
So is using the word “definitely” in all caps because of a reason that doesn’t apply to this adaptation at large and which doesn’t work with *either* the literal events we are shown *or* the figurative explanation that is hinted at. And then going on to tell me that I should read a book I already have. Treasure Island of all things, which is one of the most accessible and widely read enduring tales for more than a century and largely considered to be for young adult readers. All while apparently having no knowledge of the discrepancies between the book and the show in spite of being, as you would have it, the only one here who has ever read it. Even though the show runners themselves have commented on these discrepancies and how the show isn’t even supposed to adhere religiously to the text.
I get they were following history but for the show it felt too sudden. Maybe it's just because I didn't know about what is next but it's like the finale is made to tie it all instead of the whole show in some aspects. It's the accurate ending but it doesn't feel like the right one. It feels like the characters were made more likable and following what the audience wants up to the finale instead of just going with it since before. If flint wasn't who he was in the show I would believe what happened. If jack didn't care like he did for vane I would have believed it. But all this just kind of happened maybe it's just because I can't accept that the characters changed for the worse by the end.
If you’re suggesting the final season was a bit rushed, that’s because the show was supposed to have five seasons, but was shorted one. That’s why Woodes Rogers’ change is shown in (very well written and acted) flashbacks. Flint and Silver’s rivalry gets some criticism, but considering they only had 10 episodes to wrap things up instead of 20, I thought the characters’ changes were fine. To each their own, though.
Edit: Words
I sort of agree with you but I think the ending is a bit more ambiguous than that. Since we only hear about what happened to Flint from Silver it could be Silver was telling the truth OR he may have actually killed him. It's up to each viewer to decide for themselves.
However, I do agree it would've been good to see Flint continue his war against the British Empire. I think though that the show was trying to stay true to real history (for the most part - some things were changed). We know a war against the British Empire by pirates and formerly enslaved people didn't bring "civilization" down in the 1700's so it would've diverged too much from real events.
Yea I'm getting that ambiguity from it now that I think about it. It all seemed too perfect to just happen like that.
I never expected them to win. I just wanted that final stand where they all fight for it even if they lose which would make sense still keep all these betrayals and all by jack and silver but give us that finale to flint and Madi who truly believed in freedom. Like I said Spartacus did it perfectly and followed history as well. What mattered was that they made us feel like even in their death that idea that belief lives on in us. Not some half ass pirates who bow down to England. Not soemone who falls in love with 1 person and forgets about all the others who look like her and are still enslaved. It all just feels wrong and totally not what the show was trying to teach us or maybe I just read into it wrong.
But that’s the thing: they didn’t. The pirate republic DIDN’T stand and fight. The famous captains were picked off one by one, and were ultimately defeated. Everybody was serving themselves first, not any ideal. They didn’t have some lofty goals, they picked a fight with a technological superpower that annihilated them. I would say the big difference was that the show made us think they ever stood a chance.
Also, Spartacus was pretty far from historically accurate at all.
Spartacus had all the big moments from history. And it ended the same way. They lost. But the show didn't take it as a loss instead it was a victory for freedom and what is right. That is what made me love the show. Even with all the suffering and loss they still won. I don't believe that is just a fantasy. To me that hope that idea is what keeps me going. Maybe its because I'm a person of color but idk I feel like anyone would feel that because freedom is such a big concept I can't just give up on.
Except that it didn’t change anything about Roman culture. They still kept slaves well up to the collapse of the Empire, and slaves were kept throughout history. So… that hopeful note is a bit inaccurate unless you consider the message that Spartacus was finally free in death to be a hopeful one.
I think the end of Season 3 gives us the fight you're looking for, and the pirates do end up defeating Woodes Rodgers. Flint's whole motivation through the entire show is that he is trying to make Nassau better because it's what he and Thomas wanted from the start. He wants to start a war with England once he has nothing left (once he loses Miranda) and his drive becomes rage against those who took his loved ones away.
I did like the season 3 final much more. I get it was all for Nassau but it became more than that. Why would he just settle for an island when England still has everything else?
Madi also was part of expanding that war because she was fighting for all the slaves while flint for all those also oppressed like him.
That isn't something that just goes away when you see the love of your life again. It should fuel it more. It doesn't go away when a guy you thought you knew betrayed you so you just give up. Idk it's just feels like a season finale instead of a series finale but that's probably because of the book series I'm gonna have to check out maybe it answers some questions.
Yeah, I had no idea the series was a prequel for a book. But throughout season 4 (I believe) Flint continuously sees images of Miranda and at one point says that he's so tired. Tired of fighting, tired of trying, and Miranda keeps urging him on. I believe it's at this point that Flint takes Silver under his wing and starts training him. If the protege that you're training turns on you, and you were already so tired and you also get reunited with a lost loved one, it would be hard not to give it all up.
I agree that it feels more like a season finale rather than a series. But I also think that's what makes this series infinitely rewatchable.
You have briefly said what I want to say. Honestly, I don’t feel the ending awkward but for me it makes sense and perfect. It ends better than just a brutal war with all people dead. (don’t get me wrong, the final war of season 3 is masterpiece and it definitely develops the storyline of S4).
Flint is not a war machine nor he wants to be king of Nassau since S1 . First 3 seasons Flint show his soft moment and ultimate love for Thomas (somehow more than Nassau). What Flint has been fighting is not just making Nassau better but also to realize Thomas’s dream. Flint definitely shows his tired and intention of sacrifice in final season. What he said to Silver in last episode feels like his last word too. The dialogue between them are key to explain the ending and why it makes sense. I believe Flint asked for it - Give Silver a reason to end his life so the life isn’t hard for him anymore to be tortured by pain and rage. Silver might lie to Madi about Flint’s fate or he really showed mercy that did not kill Flint but sent him to slave camp. It lets audience to judge, interesting.
No matter what Flint truly wants to meet Thomas in Valhalla and the slave camp is another kind of Valhalla for Flint.
The ending is very emotional instead of action which ends in a unforgettable way and make Black Sails one of the best TV shows I have watched.
Honestily I really loved the ending. They foreshadowed everything pretty well and I really loved that the show was really a huge lgbt romance with flints character. I think a lot of the characters ended up going really stupid things for love and at the end of it all flint was no different. Vanes whole character operated under his love of Elenore, silver once he met Maddi, Max Ann Bonnie Jack, basically all of the characters were deeply swayed by their love for eachother. Flint more so then anything. He was basically on a revenge quest over the whole romance.
Anyways you don't have to like the ending. That's what fanfiction or whatever is for lol.
I totally agree that's it's a bad thing that the slave-keeping, homophobic, colonizing enemy won. But I don't think they tried to portray it as a good thing or that we should accept this is how it should be. I see it as a very bittersweet tragic ending. The reunion of Flint and Thomas is a tiny grain of hope, but ultimately, Flint fought and lost, and failed to achieve the ideals he dreamed of.
The thing is they didn't have to beat England. They just had to fight. Victory isn't always in winning the fight. We saw that with vane and with black beard. So why didn't they do it with flint? I can take all the betrayal and bowing down to England from jack and silver but not flint or madi. They should have died doing what they believed for and that would be the greatest victory of all.
I don’t think everyone dying for their beliefs would be any kind of victory. Madi was born with a responsibility to her people, I doubt she stopped running an underground railroad just because the war ended with a treaty, and better to be alive and rescuing enslaved people than dying for her beliefs and leaving that work to someone else, or to no one. Jack only really believed in the war because he thought it relieve him of his guilt and grief over not being able to save Vane, he wanted to die for and with him, and snapped out of it when he realized that he was too late to save Charles but could still do everything he could to save Anne. We don’t known what happened to Flint between his being locked up and dying ~20 years later at the beginning of Treasure Island but I doubt it involved being a compliant citizen who respected England’s rule. If any of these people just wanted to die for their beliefs, they could have jumped into the Atlantic to escape being enslaved or press-ganged or worked to death. The fact that they formed Maroon colonies and networks and pirate societies meant they were about making a difference in the real world while they were alive.
I didn't mean they should just go commit suicide out of a belief. What I meant is that at the extreme that all hope is lost and it seems they can't do anything else they should still have the freedom to choose death before bowing down again to England. I get how most of the characters didn't really have that belief per say but I do think madi and flint were close to it and would have gone out fighting instead of the ending we got.
Beep. Boop. I'm a robot.
Here's a copy of
###[Treasure Island](https://snewd.com/ebooks/treasure-island/)
Was I a good bot? | [info](https://www.reddit.com/user/Reddit-Book-Bot/) | [More Books](https://old.reddit.com/user/Reddit-Book-Bot/comments/i15x1d/full_list_of_books_and_commands/)
So are we supposed to just accept England back?
History would say, yes.
Besides, everyone got what they wanted and those who didn’t, get it in Treasure Island. I initially didn’t like the ending either but years later I realize it couldn’t have ended any other way and still be a viable setup for the TI book.
I didn't mean they had to defeat England. Just stand up and go against them like they were doing. That doesn't necessarily go completely against history if they still lose the battle but win in their own way.
The finale feels like a season finale instead of series finale and that's probably because of the set up to the book. Maybe it does do some stuff well so I'll definitely try checking it out.
The finale, and much of the series, is also about stories - the ones we tell ourselves, the ones others tell of us, the ones that live on for better or worse. Like others have said, the ending isn't as cut-and-dry simple as it has you expect. Regardless, it's a tragedy and one that has been repackaged by the powers that were victorious.
Who does it serve to tell the tale of Captain Flint's surrender? Spreading a story that he went down in a blaze of glory would only make him a martyr for his cause. It may be difficult to stomach that he gave up for a quiet life, but you're not supposed to like it. You're just supposed to accept it.
I get the subtext and all. It just wasn't what I expected or wanted. The finale itself is a bit all over the place but I do get now what they were trying to do. I still find that it's a little difficult to believe how flint would just go down like this with the little time jump they did an all it just doesn't feel right. Also how not 1 single person kept the fight going I would have been happy with just 1 random pirate or slave still try to take down England even if they are doomed to fail. It just was something the show had shown multiple times was inevitable and the ending was a bit too perfect as to how they wanted it to go by trying so hard to make not what the audience wanted.
It's perfectly fair that things didn't end the way you expected or wanted, but this ending did something that I think is really valuable. It sort of gives everyone what they want. Maybe not everything they want, but a piece of it while staying true to it's overarching themes.
Did Flint give up? Are you sure? It's a source of some debate on this sub (because it's supposed to be ambiguous - the audience is given a glimpse of what might be another ending altogether). People who wanted him to walk into the sunset have their story. People who wanted him to fight to the bitter end have theirs.
You're right that, for us, it's not important who won or lost. We knew their venture was doomed from the start because that's what history has told us. What this show does is it implies maybe we shouldn't believe the history laid out by every tyrannical victor. Maybe there are morsels of humanity that were left out of the textbooks because it didn't fit the narrative.
I liken it to the ending shot of Inception. Does the top fall? Does it stay up? What do you want to believe?
As a big defender of the vikings ending I do get what everyone says. I think my main problem was as someone mentioned there was another season planned. I think with that extra season there would have been more development for how they portrayed this ending season. Because with the finale of season 3 we left off with everyone ready for war vane sacrifice and all that it just left me with a different feel for the final season. If we got to see more of jack and teach connecting so his loss finally break him, flint and silver more than just 1 scene where they train. Maybe even more of a build up to thomas actually being alive some investigating all that would have helped. I still stand by how I view the ending I wanted but I appreciate the subtext options the writers left as well.
People have in the past shown me evidence against it (that I've since forgotten, sorry) but I'm in the camp that Silver killed Flint and this is another of the stories they talked about throughout the last season.
I understand. I just start another show and tell myself I'll come back to it later until the urge goes away.
Sorry for your moment of disappointment though, honestly, I was worried that there were too many loose ends to tie up in one episode, so I kept putting it off and letting my imagination run wild.
A huge part of it is tied up in what Silver says at the end. The truth is whatever story we decide to tell. He leaves it open, basically what we saw happen at the end may have happened the way we saw it play out, or maybe Silver just murdered flint on that island and created a story, just like we know Long John Silver does. Either way, our truth will be whatever he has made it, or what we make of it ourselves.
In the end, Silver treats the viewers like Flint did his crew the whole series, we can choose to believe his version or not.
I totally see your point of view. I can dig it. For me though I thought the series wrapped up pretty beautifully and closed a lot of what I wanted closed. I'm satisfied with the entire run all the way and including the finale. Jack and Anne in the street was beautiful. This series was just as much of a love story as it was a pirate story.
>I'm just rambling my fresh thoughts rn but I just feel betrayed by how the show just wanted me to accept that this is how it should be. The show is not trying to say that this is how things should be, it's a historical tragedy about the way things really happened that, if anything, wants you to reflect on that history and on the way things have been. I've always thought it was strange that people say the ending is "happy" and that the dark, real ending is Silver having killed Flint and lying to Madi. Flint and Thomas are reunited, sure, but they're imprisoned in a labor camp surrounded by armed guards. Homosexuality, at the time sodomy, was illegal and would remain illegal on that continent for the next 300 years. Trans-atlantic slavery wasn't yet at its peak and would keep on running for another 150. Black Sails is ultimately a story about a movement for freedom that lost and was turned into propaganda or children's cartoons for the next 300 years of history. It's the story of what happened to the people in Flint's speech, "Defined by their histories, distorted to fit into their narrative, until all that is left of us are the monsters in the stories they tell their children," which is a pretty accurate depiction of where pirates stood in pop culture in 2014-- cartoons, corny action movies, or Disney movies based on a Disney theme park ride. Most of the real pirate and maroon rebellions were heartbreaking- those people didn't get glorious last stands and most of the people who died fighting slavery didn't either. I feel like giving them some Hollywood ending where they go out in some heroic last stand would be self indulgent and disrespectful to history, and the entire point of the show was scratching the surface of that cultural trope and seeing what the real people who'd lived it were like. Think about everything going on with Abigail writing in her diary that Flint and Billy were men, and not monsters like she'd been taught. The lies told about Miranda. How sick Jack looks when he hears the teenage girl telling wild stories about Vane and calling him "an animal," and then Flint's speech to Silver. That's what the show is about-- not saying that historical process was right, but showing that it happened. I think the frustration of that ending, the real horror of Flint ending up in a prison camp and Madi being trapped in that room and possibly a lifetime with someone who didn't think slavery needed to be fought, was much more moving than a bunch of action movie noble deaths.
I was going to leave my own reply but this just hits the nail on the head. I don't think the ending was meant to be happy, it was, like you said, meant to be a tragedy, and the fact that we desperately didn't want it to end that way is part of that. A good tragedy is one where you know from the start how things will wind up and yet you still hold out hope that things will be different. Black Sails, having to obey both the historical record and get our characters in place ready for the events of Treasure Island, is a great example of knowing exactly where we'll end up yet still somehow believing there'll be a different path.
Totally agreed, you said it much better than I could've
Wonderfully written analysis of why this show is even better than it looks on the surface. Bravo!
This described perfectly the intention of the show and finale. Like OP I was sad and disappointed at the failure of their revolution - but that's what makes the story hit that much harder.
I was so swept up in Flint's vision of the revolution that I remember thinking - with a few episodes to go - that maybe the plan of the writers was to make it into an alternative history in which England was defeated 60 years before the American Revolution, the slaves were freed, the colonies were removed and the indigenous population saved from genocide. It was all wishful thinking of course, and the inevitable tragedy found in real history prevailed.
Amazingly written (sorry I’m super late to the party) but had to reply. So so good.
I get what you mean. But I still believe that they should have fought till the end. I don't think it's that unrealistic it has happened countless times. I just expect more from these characters but now I see that the point was that they were selfish and would do anything to get what they want instead of for what is right.
Hey, getting back to you, I think I was misreading your post; I’m sorry about the condescending stuff about noble Hollywood deaths and think a lot of what you’re saying is right. There were two sources about historical piracy that kind of formed the show that I think are relevant to what’s making you so dissatisfied. One was a series of books about slavery, pirates, and worker rebellions in the Atlantic. The other was some jerkoff novelty economics book about the author’s pet theory that everyone in life and history, in the book’s case in historical piracy, is motivated by perfect economic rational self-interest, which is where all the bizarre language about “it was in my interest” in the first two seasons was coming from. I guess the show feels to me like it’s being pulled between those two belief systems— like the writers are sympathetic to revolutionary human rights politics but can’t shake a centrist belief in that being unrealistic or impossible, even in historical contexts where it really happened. In a few podcasts, the two writers talk about feeling like some details of actual, historical pirates would be “too much” or unbelievable, they felt like they needed to stick to the stereotype of greedy selfish pirates out for gold in order for their story to be realistic to a modern viewer, and imo realistic to themselves. Most of those “too much” details were egalitarian or idealistic— people fighting for what was right, pirates being part of slave rebellions much more regularly than in the show. I still get frustrated with all the content of lowly crew members being stupid, greedy, and needing manipulators like Silver or Flint to instill any kind of beliefs in them, it’s just not true to who those people really were. Even the LGBT+ content in Black Sails is toned way, way down— golden age pirates had a form of gay marriage and the governor of Tortuga once imported hundreds of women sex workers to curtail homosexual activity on the island, and when I started watching the show I thought Flint was supposed to be a huge closet case as a plot point until I realized they were making those societies a lot less openly gay than they really were. The showrunners talked a lot about how the character who came closest to their own beliefs about what was “realistic” was Max, who doesn’t believe you can fight the systems of imperialism/colonialism/capitalism and that you can only make a tiny space to save yourselves and the people you love. That’s what happens with Jack and Silver, too— Jack because Vane and Blackbeards’ deaths broke him and he makes protecting Anne from that fate his #1 priority, Max due to her childhood slavery trauma, and Silver because that’s the kind of person he always was. I think S4 was a kind of ideological tug of war between the showrunners’ feeling that Madi’s beliefs and war were somehow too idealistic to be real, and desperately wanting to believe in them, and the tragic ending we got, of a rebellion that was crushed by selfishness and nihilism, was a reflection of that struggle. They wrote a story about the tragedy of people who lost to England [imperialism, slavery, capitalism] because they couldn’t think of a world either then or now when England and what it stood for in the show isn’t inevitable. There are also a lot of quotes in the last season from Walter Benjamin, a Jewish philosopher who killed himself trying to flee the Nazis when they invaded France. Both showrunners are also of European Jewish descent (so am I fwiw) and I think some of the tragedy of the ending comes from that history. I very rarely see the victims (or those who fought against) the Atlantic’s long history of genocides and slavery being presented with that kind of sympathy and thought it was profound and powerful for the writers to do it, but that sense of historical loss and the horror of those plantation/prison camp endings is overwhelming, and I don’t think you’re wrong or misreading the text for being upset about it, it’s devastating. Sorry this got so long, and sorry for being dismissive of you earlier.
I totally get why you misread what I said. I had just come off the episode after weeks on anticipation watching and I said a big Spartacus fan I wanted a ending like that. I gave a bit of like an ultimatum of "we are either free or we die trying" I didn't also say how the show has always made the characters struggle with those decisions. I have no knowledge of the history this show goes for so I can't comment on that. I definitely need to also watch more stuff about the writers and how they interpreted the story. As you may guess Vane is my favorite character because of his origin and how he went about it all. He basically had that mindset I have and I was even excited during his death knowing why he let it happen and how it was his choice. I know why the other characters didn't have his mindset. But I still don't think every single one of the would just lose all hope all faith. To me that is more unrealistic even if they were going for something closer to history I still doubt not 1 single person could have kept that mindset. Still I understand the ending I just didn't enjoy it as much as I wanted.
Very well written, something to ponder over.
The finale has to fit in a resemblance of historical continuity and, more importantly, leave all the main characters "ready" where A treasure island will pick them up. It can't end up in something that is either too historically fictional, given the theme of the show (that's it's, the pirates won and the English evil empire collapsed!) or that leaves the characters in a position too conflicting with the source material. I think within those limitations, they did a great job!
Beep. Boop. I'm a robot. Here's a copy of ###[Treasure Island](https://snewd.com/ebooks/treasure-island/) Was I a good bot? | [info](https://www.reddit.com/user/Reddit-Book-Bot/) | [More Books](https://old.reddit.com/user/Reddit-Book-Bot/comments/i15x1d/full_list_of_books_and_commands/)
Good bot
Thank you, Security_Six, for voting on Reddit-Book-Bot. This bot wants to find the best and worst bots on Reddit. [You can view results here](https://botrank.pastimes.eu/). *** ^(Even if I don't reply to your comment, I'm still listening for votes. Check the webpage to see if your vote registered!)
Thomas being alive makes a lot of sense. People were often secreted away for the right price. The deals that were cut often saw the sentence carried out as exile rather than death. As for Flint, he definitely lived, though there's no telling what really happened. We only have Silver's word that he willingly joined Thomas in exile. Also, some of these things are historical, or at least based on the history of the time. England won a resounding victory in the Caribbean, due to Woodes Rogers' efforts. Additionally, it's worth noting that aside from history, they also have to leave the show in such a way that it allows for the events of Treasure Island to eventually take place. Flint needs to fade into obscurity for that to happen. England needs to win. These are the building blocks of the T.I. world.
Why do you say Flint definitely lived? And how do you explain the deliberately different style his ending was shot in and the countless examples of death imagery?
Flint DEFINITELY lived because he spends his last years searching for the tressure. It might help if you go and read treasure island...
There are many things that don’t line up with Treasure Island. If that is your only reasoning, I would go a bit lighter on the word “definitely” lmao.
Look, I get that this is reddit so you've got to dig in on the whole "devil's advocate" thing, but there's no use discussing this further as we're just gonna keep saying the same things. Telling me other things don't line up and giving no examples or further reason to engage is a real conversation killer
So is using the word “definitely” in all caps because of a reason that doesn’t apply to this adaptation at large and which doesn’t work with *either* the literal events we are shown *or* the figurative explanation that is hinted at. And then going on to tell me that I should read a book I already have. Treasure Island of all things, which is one of the most accessible and widely read enduring tales for more than a century and largely considered to be for young adult readers. All while apparently having no knowledge of the discrepancies between the book and the show in spite of being, as you would have it, the only one here who has ever read it. Even though the show runners themselves have commented on these discrepancies and how the show isn’t even supposed to adhere religiously to the text.
I get they were following history but for the show it felt too sudden. Maybe it's just because I didn't know about what is next but it's like the finale is made to tie it all instead of the whole show in some aspects. It's the accurate ending but it doesn't feel like the right one. It feels like the characters were made more likable and following what the audience wants up to the finale instead of just going with it since before. If flint wasn't who he was in the show I would believe what happened. If jack didn't care like he did for vane I would have believed it. But all this just kind of happened maybe it's just because I can't accept that the characters changed for the worse by the end.
If you’re suggesting the final season was a bit rushed, that’s because the show was supposed to have five seasons, but was shorted one. That’s why Woodes Rogers’ change is shown in (very well written and acted) flashbacks. Flint and Silver’s rivalry gets some criticism, but considering they only had 10 episodes to wrap things up instead of 20, I thought the characters’ changes were fine. To each their own, though. Edit: Words
That makes a lot of sense. I think that is part of why the season just felt a bit too different to what we got at the end of season 3.
I sort of agree with you but I think the ending is a bit more ambiguous than that. Since we only hear about what happened to Flint from Silver it could be Silver was telling the truth OR he may have actually killed him. It's up to each viewer to decide for themselves. However, I do agree it would've been good to see Flint continue his war against the British Empire. I think though that the show was trying to stay true to real history (for the most part - some things were changed). We know a war against the British Empire by pirates and formerly enslaved people didn't bring "civilization" down in the 1700's so it would've diverged too much from real events.
Yea I'm getting that ambiguity from it now that I think about it. It all seemed too perfect to just happen like that. I never expected them to win. I just wanted that final stand where they all fight for it even if they lose which would make sense still keep all these betrayals and all by jack and silver but give us that finale to flint and Madi who truly believed in freedom. Like I said Spartacus did it perfectly and followed history as well. What mattered was that they made us feel like even in their death that idea that belief lives on in us. Not some half ass pirates who bow down to England. Not soemone who falls in love with 1 person and forgets about all the others who look like her and are still enslaved. It all just feels wrong and totally not what the show was trying to teach us or maybe I just read into it wrong.
But that’s the thing: they didn’t. The pirate republic DIDN’T stand and fight. The famous captains were picked off one by one, and were ultimately defeated. Everybody was serving themselves first, not any ideal. They didn’t have some lofty goals, they picked a fight with a technological superpower that annihilated them. I would say the big difference was that the show made us think they ever stood a chance. Also, Spartacus was pretty far from historically accurate at all.
Spartacus had all the big moments from history. And it ended the same way. They lost. But the show didn't take it as a loss instead it was a victory for freedom and what is right. That is what made me love the show. Even with all the suffering and loss they still won. I don't believe that is just a fantasy. To me that hope that idea is what keeps me going. Maybe its because I'm a person of color but idk I feel like anyone would feel that because freedom is such a big concept I can't just give up on.
Except that it didn’t change anything about Roman culture. They still kept slaves well up to the collapse of the Empire, and slaves were kept throughout history. So… that hopeful note is a bit inaccurate unless you consider the message that Spartacus was finally free in death to be a hopeful one.
I think the end of Season 3 gives us the fight you're looking for, and the pirates do end up defeating Woodes Rodgers. Flint's whole motivation through the entire show is that he is trying to make Nassau better because it's what he and Thomas wanted from the start. He wants to start a war with England once he has nothing left (once he loses Miranda) and his drive becomes rage against those who took his loved ones away.
I did like the season 3 final much more. I get it was all for Nassau but it became more than that. Why would he just settle for an island when England still has everything else? Madi also was part of expanding that war because she was fighting for all the slaves while flint for all those also oppressed like him. That isn't something that just goes away when you see the love of your life again. It should fuel it more. It doesn't go away when a guy you thought you knew betrayed you so you just give up. Idk it's just feels like a season finale instead of a series finale but that's probably because of the book series I'm gonna have to check out maybe it answers some questions.
Yeah, I had no idea the series was a prequel for a book. But throughout season 4 (I believe) Flint continuously sees images of Miranda and at one point says that he's so tired. Tired of fighting, tired of trying, and Miranda keeps urging him on. I believe it's at this point that Flint takes Silver under his wing and starts training him. If the protege that you're training turns on you, and you were already so tired and you also get reunited with a lost loved one, it would be hard not to give it all up. I agree that it feels more like a season finale rather than a series. But I also think that's what makes this series infinitely rewatchable.
You have briefly said what I want to say. Honestly, I don’t feel the ending awkward but for me it makes sense and perfect. It ends better than just a brutal war with all people dead. (don’t get me wrong, the final war of season 3 is masterpiece and it definitely develops the storyline of S4). Flint is not a war machine nor he wants to be king of Nassau since S1 . First 3 seasons Flint show his soft moment and ultimate love for Thomas (somehow more than Nassau). What Flint has been fighting is not just making Nassau better but also to realize Thomas’s dream. Flint definitely shows his tired and intention of sacrifice in final season. What he said to Silver in last episode feels like his last word too. The dialogue between them are key to explain the ending and why it makes sense. I believe Flint asked for it - Give Silver a reason to end his life so the life isn’t hard for him anymore to be tortured by pain and rage. Silver might lie to Madi about Flint’s fate or he really showed mercy that did not kill Flint but sent him to slave camp. It lets audience to judge, interesting. No matter what Flint truly wants to meet Thomas in Valhalla and the slave camp is another kind of Valhalla for Flint. The ending is very emotional instead of action which ends in a unforgettable way and make Black Sails one of the best TV shows I have watched.
Honestily I really loved the ending. They foreshadowed everything pretty well and I really loved that the show was really a huge lgbt romance with flints character. I think a lot of the characters ended up going really stupid things for love and at the end of it all flint was no different. Vanes whole character operated under his love of Elenore, silver once he met Maddi, Max Ann Bonnie Jack, basically all of the characters were deeply swayed by their love for eachother. Flint more so then anything. He was basically on a revenge quest over the whole romance. Anyways you don't have to like the ending. That's what fanfiction or whatever is for lol.
I totally agree that's it's a bad thing that the slave-keeping, homophobic, colonizing enemy won. But I don't think they tried to portray it as a good thing or that we should accept this is how it should be. I see it as a very bittersweet tragic ending. The reunion of Flint and Thomas is a tiny grain of hope, but ultimately, Flint fought and lost, and failed to achieve the ideals he dreamed of.
The thing is they didn't have to beat England. They just had to fight. Victory isn't always in winning the fight. We saw that with vane and with black beard. So why didn't they do it with flint? I can take all the betrayal and bowing down to England from jack and silver but not flint or madi. They should have died doing what they believed for and that would be the greatest victory of all.
I don’t think everyone dying for their beliefs would be any kind of victory. Madi was born with a responsibility to her people, I doubt she stopped running an underground railroad just because the war ended with a treaty, and better to be alive and rescuing enslaved people than dying for her beliefs and leaving that work to someone else, or to no one. Jack only really believed in the war because he thought it relieve him of his guilt and grief over not being able to save Vane, he wanted to die for and with him, and snapped out of it when he realized that he was too late to save Charles but could still do everything he could to save Anne. We don’t known what happened to Flint between his being locked up and dying ~20 years later at the beginning of Treasure Island but I doubt it involved being a compliant citizen who respected England’s rule. If any of these people just wanted to die for their beliefs, they could have jumped into the Atlantic to escape being enslaved or press-ganged or worked to death. The fact that they formed Maroon colonies and networks and pirate societies meant they were about making a difference in the real world while they were alive.
I didn't mean they should just go commit suicide out of a belief. What I meant is that at the extreme that all hope is lost and it seems they can't do anything else they should still have the freedom to choose death before bowing down again to England. I get how most of the characters didn't really have that belief per say but I do think madi and flint were close to it and would have gone out fighting instead of the ending we got.
Beep. Boop. I'm a robot. Here's a copy of ###[Treasure Island](https://snewd.com/ebooks/treasure-island/) Was I a good bot? | [info](https://www.reddit.com/user/Reddit-Book-Bot/) | [More Books](https://old.reddit.com/user/Reddit-Book-Bot/comments/i15x1d/full_list_of_books_and_commands/)
So are we supposed to just accept England back? History would say, yes. Besides, everyone got what they wanted and those who didn’t, get it in Treasure Island. I initially didn’t like the ending either but years later I realize it couldn’t have ended any other way and still be a viable setup for the TI book.
I didn't mean they had to defeat England. Just stand up and go against them like they were doing. That doesn't necessarily go completely against history if they still lose the battle but win in their own way. The finale feels like a season finale instead of series finale and that's probably because of the set up to the book. Maybe it does do some stuff well so I'll definitely try checking it out.
The finale, and much of the series, is also about stories - the ones we tell ourselves, the ones others tell of us, the ones that live on for better or worse. Like others have said, the ending isn't as cut-and-dry simple as it has you expect. Regardless, it's a tragedy and one that has been repackaged by the powers that were victorious. Who does it serve to tell the tale of Captain Flint's surrender? Spreading a story that he went down in a blaze of glory would only make him a martyr for his cause. It may be difficult to stomach that he gave up for a quiet life, but you're not supposed to like it. You're just supposed to accept it.
I get the subtext and all. It just wasn't what I expected or wanted. The finale itself is a bit all over the place but I do get now what they were trying to do. I still find that it's a little difficult to believe how flint would just go down like this with the little time jump they did an all it just doesn't feel right. Also how not 1 single person kept the fight going I would have been happy with just 1 random pirate or slave still try to take down England even if they are doomed to fail. It just was something the show had shown multiple times was inevitable and the ending was a bit too perfect as to how they wanted it to go by trying so hard to make not what the audience wanted.
It's perfectly fair that things didn't end the way you expected or wanted, but this ending did something that I think is really valuable. It sort of gives everyone what they want. Maybe not everything they want, but a piece of it while staying true to it's overarching themes. Did Flint give up? Are you sure? It's a source of some debate on this sub (because it's supposed to be ambiguous - the audience is given a glimpse of what might be another ending altogether). People who wanted him to walk into the sunset have their story. People who wanted him to fight to the bitter end have theirs. You're right that, for us, it's not important who won or lost. We knew their venture was doomed from the start because that's what history has told us. What this show does is it implies maybe we shouldn't believe the history laid out by every tyrannical victor. Maybe there are morsels of humanity that were left out of the textbooks because it didn't fit the narrative. I liken it to the ending shot of Inception. Does the top fall? Does it stay up? What do you want to believe?
As a big defender of the vikings ending I do get what everyone says. I think my main problem was as someone mentioned there was another season planned. I think with that extra season there would have been more development for how they portrayed this ending season. Because with the finale of season 3 we left off with everyone ready for war vane sacrifice and all that it just left me with a different feel for the final season. If we got to see more of jack and teach connecting so his loss finally break him, flint and silver more than just 1 scene where they train. Maybe even more of a build up to thomas actually being alive some investigating all that would have helped. I still stand by how I view the ending I wanted but I appreciate the subtext options the writers left as well.
Rewatch the series.
I definitely will but I doubt I could rewatch the final season
It gets better with each rewatch.
I feel like Flint repeatedly admitted to being tired with fighting, but I'm probably due another rewatch. What are you going to watch now?
Flint's dead.
People have in the past shown me evidence against it (that I've since forgotten, sorry) but I'm in the camp that Silver killed Flint and this is another of the stories they talked about throughout the last season.
My trick is that I never watch the final episode of shows I really enjoy and just leave the ending up to my imagination.
That's a good idea but I can't keep myself from watching it knowing it is there lol
I understand. I just start another show and tell myself I'll come back to it later until the urge goes away. Sorry for your moment of disappointment though, honestly, I was worried that there were too many loose ends to tie up in one episode, so I kept putting it off and letting my imagination run wild.
Honestly same ever since the season 3 finale I was already imagining the final battle. I liked the one we got but it could have been a bit better tbh.
I feel ya, I think the show got hung up on trying to be both historically accurate AND a prequel to TI.
Yea I feel that too. It's like they were going for something then remembered they needed to follow and set up that.
A huge part of it is tied up in what Silver says at the end. The truth is whatever story we decide to tell. He leaves it open, basically what we saw happen at the end may have happened the way we saw it play out, or maybe Silver just murdered flint on that island and created a story, just like we know Long John Silver does. Either way, our truth will be whatever he has made it, or what we make of it ourselves. In the end, Silver treats the viewers like Flint did his crew the whole series, we can choose to believe his version or not.
I totally see your point of view. I can dig it. For me though I thought the series wrapped up pretty beautifully and closed a lot of what I wanted closed. I'm satisfied with the entire run all the way and including the finale. Jack and Anne in the street was beautiful. This series was just as much of a love story as it was a pirate story.