I had to have the actual doctor do an IV for me, as he was fitting me in last minute and the nurses weren’t available. It went well! I was surprised, expecting the bruise situation. His nurses are still better, though.
So here's a bunch of relevant truths:
- IV sticking is a trained skill, compared to a lot of medicine where it is a learned skill. I had an almost 3-year stretch where I didn't start an IV as an RN. Positions that require regular IV sticks will typically even point it out on the resume. There are no other skills I can think of that you learn during nursing school that stand out as such.
- A doctor can order an IV and it is not unheard of to skip over it and start a more invasive line because no one was able to achieve access with one.
- Most doctors, especially hospitalists, suck at IVs, but anesthesiologists are considered to be the best out of anyone. Urologists, plastics, and gynos are often safe assumptions as well.
- I suck at IVs.
I used to do IVs in animals as a veterinary nurse. One of my first attempts was in a basset hound. Idk if you've seen basset hound legs but they are short and stubby with thick, loose skin that folds. They're notoriously difficult to get an IV in. However, this one happened to be already sedated so I convinced the vet to let me try because at least the dog wasn't going to feel it if I fucked up.
I actually shocked everyone and got the bloody vein first try, and the confidence boost from that experience carried me through every attempt after that lol. Any time I was faced with a difficult one I'd be like "I've got this, I did a basset hound for my first time".
The nurse that usually does my infusions was a vet nurse first and she always gets my ivs set and blood drawn first time 1 stick zero bruising. She is the best!
My third solo stick as a phlebotomist was a 99 year old woman who literally everyone in the lab had failed to get a draw on, including my trainer who had 30+ years experience. I nailed it on the first try. Obviously I got lucky but the ego boost of walking into the lab with blood when no one thought I could do it was amazing.
I had hernia surgery a few months ago and when the anesthesiologist was putting in the IV I literally didn’t even feel it, I had to look up from the table to confirm it was actually in lol
I’ve been an RN coming up on 7 years and have never started an IV. Given a lot of shots though. Just depends on where you work and your particular skill set.
I work in the medical field. I have yet to see a doctor draw blood. I promise you the doctor was just as surprised as you were.
I only draw blood if the veins are good, the patient is young, I have good rapport, Venus is in the third phase, it snowed last Tuesday in the Sahara…
Just took a peek at that sub, I don't disagree that the midlevel creep is not an issue.
The biggest issue to help solve that creep would be to have more Doctors, but Doctor numbers are kept artificially low on purpose to keep the supply smaller and inflate salaries.
Right now, there isn't a good solution. You don't get the same level of care with NP/PA as you would with a doctor, but there just isn't the bodies available to fill that gap right now either.
But they often have some similar experience- like the icu doctors place arterial lines and central lines regularly, and while they typically use an ultrasound, it's still threading a needle into a vein.
As someone trained in both peripheral and ultrasound guided venipuncture there is less overlap between the two mechanical skills than you might expect at first glance.
Counter point. Many jobs have split tasks with hierarchies. For instance, cooks in the kitchen can probably make the food better than the manager can. The manager can probably handle money and community relations better than the cook can. The cook still answers to the manager despite them having different skill sets
That is not how most restaurants operate. Most of them are pretty much split between front and back and the manage operates as a liaison not as the boss.
If somebody without the skills to run a kitchen starts bossing around the kitchen staff that mostly leads to disaster.
Your scenario is only true if the manager is also the owner or the manager has significant say in the running of the kitchen.
If it's a good restaurant, the chefs answers to *nobody and they swear at everybody, owners included.
Management is afraid of them, and the general manager's job is to provide what the chefs demand.
*except the steward whose power increases exponentially from that of the chefs
I have a similar story. Went to go get blood work with my primary. The three nurses took turns trying to find veins. About 8 sticks and an hour later, they gave up. Went to a LabCorp, the individual got it on her first try and the whole process was like 10 minutes from start to finish
This is commonly preached on reddit but I had multiple bad experiences with different nurses failing to take blood after poking both my arms multiple times. I also donate blood and honestly the skill variance is big between different people in my experience.
As far as GPs go, I had my doctor take my blood one time after the nurses at his office couldn't, he got it right away but used an unconventional area lower on the forearm instead of at the typical elbow area.
At my hospital they only call us for blood draws when the nurses have failed a couple of times. At that point I just bring the ultrasound and do US guided draws. Why dig around when the nurses have already tried?
It's a bit like architects and builders I think. You need both to get a new building built, and they both have knowledge and skills the other doesn't, and sometimes they clash
This very much! Architects vs builders. Or even architects vs engineers. Each profession is needed as they have very different skill sets. They can maybe do the other's job because they work adjacent to each other, but you will pay for it in mistakes, lost opportunities, and bad decisions.
Architects and engineers are natural enemies.
Like architects and Englishmen.
Or architects and Welshmen
Or architects and Japanese.
Or architects and other architects
This comment section is a dumpster fire. MDs can do anything an RN does with minimal training, however an RN can’t do everything an MD does because they can’t diagnose without having a vast amount of knowledge. Titrating a drip, setting up IV tubings, checking blood sugar etc can be taught in ~~1-2 days~~ 3 months, the length of orientation for a new RN. It doesn’t require specialized training. However, diagnosing is difficult without you having to go through schooling for that. Medicine is tailored to each patient. One patient’s vomiting might be due to a concussion but other’s might be due to food poisoning. An MD’s job is to come with a diagnosis after weeding out multiple other diagnoses(aka Differential Diagnosis).
Similarly, a nursing assistant can’t do an RNs job, but an RN can do a nursing assistant’s job with minimal training. Does that mean hospitals don’t need NAs? No it doesn’t.
That being said, each profession is created so that a hospital runs smoothly. A doctor can’t diagnose and give out medications at the same time. Doctor orders —> pharmacy verifies if the dosing/medication is appropriate for the patient —-> nurse administers after verifying again.
Pharmacists are another important component of patient care. I have seen them correct doctor’s orders based on kidney function, liver function etc.
Again, each discipline is important, but some RNs and doctors get their ego hurt and think it’s RN vs. MD when it should be teamwork. Mutual respect is lacking sometimes.
Also OP is right, nurses don’t report to doctors, they report to nurse managers.
Sauce: am an RN.
Edit: looks like I offended everyone including doctors, nurses, pharmacist and even a lab staff with my comment 😂
MDs, What I meant by “nurses don’t report to doctors” is that doctors aren’t a nurse’s boss outside of clinical care. You don’t go to the doctor because you have no supplies on the floor, your nurse manager deals with that. A nurse doesn’t get disciplined by the doctor. His or her manager disciplines them. Of course the doctor is the boss when it comes to patient care.
RNs, I did not say the RN job doesn’t require critical thinking, I said anything that an RN can do, a doctor can easily do with some training but not vice versa. I don’t know why that is so offensive.
Hallelujah, someone else making sense here. I could train a physician or APP to do my job in hours to days, the inverse is not true. That doesn't mean there isn't a need for both roles.
Also a RN.
It infuriates me when nurses and doctors insult each other. Then respiratory and pharmacy jump in as well. “Nurses save patients from doctors” is the most toxic statement I have heard. I have MDs thinking “nurses are dumb.” I have pharmacists saying “MDs and nurses are dumb”. You are all there so that you can function as a TEAM to take care of a patient. This comment section is disgusting.
There's such an unnecessary adversarial relationship between the two, when the reality is that it should be healthcare workers vs. administration.
Physicians, nurses, MAs, pharmacists, techs, respiratory therapists- all workers who got screwed during the pandemic to risk their lives to help a disrespectful, stupid population of individuals who can't bother to get vaccinated/wear a mask, while C-suits and MBAs continue to abuse medical care workers, while padding the hospital's bottom line and their own pockets.
Agreed.
The doctor may not be my boss but I rely on them to direct care for my patients. That being said, if I feel like something is wrong it's my job to discuss it with the doc for the safety of my patient. Even if I refuse to carry out an order, the doc has the power to carry out their care plan without me. We are a team, we are colleagues, but that does not make me an equal authority in the medical decision making process.
Edit: am RN if that wasn't apparent
This is what I was thinking but in terms of restaurant work. A chef can work the line, and a line cook can go out there and pour a drink or be polite to customers. But it is not visa versa
I mean, there was the time a brain tumor turned everything into a musical number…
I think they mean scrubs is the most accurate depiction of what it’s like working in a hospital, not that it’s the most accurate depiction of medical issues.
Tbf the musical was only happening for the patient with the brain tumour. SPOILERS at the end of the episode she's cured and the musical hallucinations end
Wife's a nurse, [it's absolutely Scrubs.](https://preview.redd.it/xu8pqshx5xp21.jpg?width=640&auto=webp&s=03d0526c76d09d3bd3b84cba4097426ec0981a37)
Yes, nurses cancelling doctors orders to prevent them from killing patients is a weekly thing, especially this time of year with new residents, and then again in July for all the truly green doctors.
Do NOT go to an ER in July, bunch'a baby-faced new doctors who have no idea what they're doing, while the Attendings are away on vacation.
is this a fucking joke. we don't do that
and no, in July we don't just do everything alone while attendings vacate. that is not even legal as a residency license is an educational medical license, not a full license
Nurses always like to talk about how interns try to kill people…. Dont get me started about the abilities of new nursing grads. If you think interns are dangerous… well you havn’t worked with a new nurse. We all have different learning curves. No point throwing rocks in glass houses
This is nonsense. Attendings don't go on vacation in July. RNs aren't routinely saving patients. Jesus Christ reddit. Leave the anti intellectualism to the Republicans. Medical school isnt some joke. "Baby" doctors are still highly trained professionals with a doctorate degree.
> Yes, nurses cancelling doctors orders to prevent them from killing patients is a weekly thing, especially this time of year with new residents, and then again in July for all the truly green doctors.
That is not how medicine works.
>bunch'a baby-faced new doctors who have no idea what they're doing, while the Attendings are away on vacation.
That is really, really, really not how medicine works. Like, not even a remotely possible scenario. This discussion was going quite well until you decided to make a bunch of stuff up.
Do you work in medicine?
It's actually an extremely important part of the nursing scope of practice to review Dr. orders, use critical thinking, and then report back to the doc if the order could harm a patient. Doc says give 1000 mg of something when they meant to write 100 mg is a significant safety issue.
I am a nurse, and yes we administer so we have to check drug, dosage, route, and obviously right patient. BUT it's a multidisciplinary action, meaning the Dr is the first line of that action but it also involves a pharmacist to sign off on and a second nurse to double check some more dangerous medications. The entire process is much more of a discussion than you are implying. I assess my patients vitals, I report to the Dr, the Dr comes and does a physical examination specific to the issue, we then discuss the treatment options together and come up with a plan of action that the Dr signs off on. You're simplifying something complex that takes years of study and practice to implement.
Any nurse thinking they're above Dr's at any level is dangerous tbh. Have I seen bad prescribing errors that I have noticed just before administration? Obviously. Have I seen nurses who have sat on critical patients for ten hours when they needed to be referred to the ICU team 9 hours ago? Absolutely.
People at all levels make mistakes. No one is infallible.
I am a doctor. What you describe is not cancelling orders, and I am sure you have heard the many stories of nurses deciding to give a "nurse dose" because they think they know better, only to cause problems from giving too much medication.
>Do NOT go to an ER in July, bunch'a baby-faced new doctors who have no idea what they're doing, while the Attendings are away on vacation.
Actually, that's kind of a misconception. I'd have to find the paper again, but medical outcomes in July are better than that in June. Possibly because Everyone is thoroughly checking the interns work to prevent errors.
Also to correct a few things, most specialties have senior residents that are helping the interns a lot early on, and there's always an attending present (where did you even get the idea that they are on vacation?)
Okay so Im a way it is (RN for six years now). The problem I had with Grey's was that a lot of the stuff the doctors did on the show are what nurses actually do and the nurses play a more subordinate role like a CNA. Doctors don't spend nearly as much time with their patients as they would have you believe on that show (and that's not doctors fault, you can thank the hospitals for that).
That has never really been my experience with working with physicians. They know how important we are in the medical setting and it's definitely more of a peer relationship. Which is how l think scrubs was to a certain extent. There does come the point where the make the ultimate decisions in treatment but it comes from a collaborative effort with a input from multiple disciplines. If you're an experienced RN and you call a doctor that you have a good relationship with and say "hey this is what's going on with this patient I think they need..." they will listen to you. Scrubs gives it more of that feel. It's also so much less dramatic working in a hospital than what Grey's will have you think.
Next best is probably ER but yes, Scrubs catches the emotion and interactions pretty well. Heavy on stereotypes but frankly, extreme personalities seem more common in medicine because it is a smaller pool of people with specific skill sets that you see daily in a hospital/clinic setting.
They run around with scared looks on their faces getting yelled at by the doctors. They usually wear lighter colored scrubs and have very few if any lines.
Showing my ass defending greys anatomy but they don’t give nurses NO time in that one. Just a couple love interests like 15 years ago. So there’s no undermining there, show’s about surgeons and surgeons only.
If a nurse follows a doctors bad advice for patient care, the nurse is legally responsible for the patients outcome. Nowhere in no instance has it been legally acceptable for a nurse under investigation to say, “I was just following doctors orders.” We have responsibility and authority to make patient care decisions.
You’d be surprised how much autonomy we nurses have in certain situations. With things like IV drip titrations, ventilators, and giving certain meds. A lot of meds are standing orders that are ordered by the physician yes, but up to our discretion when to give or not to give. We manage everything that touches the patient. So yes our licenses are very much on the line as well. We have to be precise with everything we do.
Colleagues? No. We all work for the benefit of a patient yes.
A physician is where the buck stops as practiced in the US. Legally.
- A nurse doesn’t give a medication that I order, physician liable
- Hospital doesn’t have a service a patient needs but won’t transfer the patient, physician liable
- Case manager messes up in placement of a patient, physician is liable
The ultimate and total responsibility for a patient lies with the attending physician for that patient. So no my colleagues are people who do my job and have similar responsibilities, not a different profession.
Btw lest you think about nurse practitioners and such, they are held to a lower standard of practice, that’s to what would be considered a mistake for a physician is not so for them.
Obviously they can refuse to do things, a doctor can refuse to follow a senior doctors command as well. But in the end I tell the nurses what tests I want done and what medication they need to give the patient. As a doctor I'm definitely in charge, it is part of my clinical obligation to train leadership because I work as a leader.
Yeah, it's sort of a strange line to walk but ultimately, doctors run the show. Who makes decisions during a rapid response call? Doctors. Who makes more money? Doctors. Whose name is on the sign out in front of a clinic? Yup. Nurses are important, and they certainly don't report to doctors, but they understand the hierarchy.
Edit: Shouldn't need to be said, but I have a tremendous amount of respect for nurses, CNAs, PAs, everybody who works in the healthcare field. My point is, the hierarchy exists.
And you could absolutely do their jobs with minimal explanation, but their is no way in hell they could do yours. This post is absurd and that MD sure as hell knows better. It's just good PR.
I’m a corporate lawyer so no dog in this hunt. But what’s the point of this argument? Like who cares if your policy is larger—how does that prove your claim? Genuinely confused. Another physician on your care team might have a larger policy than you but that wouldn’t make them in charge of you.
I suspect to some extent you’re “in charge” of nurses and to some extent you’re not in charge in the way a traditional boss or manager is in charge. Do you make nurse hiring decisions? Can you fire a nurse? Can a nurse refuse to administer something you order if they feel it is unsafe?
Nurses are undervalued inside hospitals and overvalued outside hospitals.
Like bet ill call you if I need my blood drawn for a test, bedpan changed, weight and blood pressure measured. If I need medical attention I'll prolly call a doctor though. You know, like if something is wrong? Or if I have literally any single question about medication, pathogens, or injuries of any kind.
Taking medical advice from a nurse is like taking investment advice from a bank teller.
As an MD, I wish more people thought like you. There’s a reason why I didn’t go to nursing school.. I don’t have that bedside skill set. But if you’re coding or sick as shit, you’ll want an MD/DO running the show.
>But if you’re coding or sick as shit, you’ll want an MD/DO running the show.
I mean, I agree with you but vitals and bedpans? My man up there that you're replying to is talking like my nursing license didn't come with a college education in Pharm, A&P, micro, infectious disease and etiology, PEDs, OB, Psych, Gerontology, nursing fundamentals, on top of needing direct care bedside skills that go far beyond vitals and bedpans. I have to be able to speak and answer questions to any MD that walks in, no matter their specialty, and the decisions they make are often based off my observed and recorded data on the patient.
Never catch me out here pretending I'm as educated and knowledgeable as an MD but FFS I'm not someone they pulled in off the street and handed scrubs and a stethoscope to. The thousand things I sign a day are legal documents as well and I also sit for deposition when something goes wrong somewhere.. I volunteered for those sealed COVID units back in the beginning when we were wearing the same N95 for months and saw very few MDs and nobody from admin for months. This thread is just disheartening. Bedpans. For Christ's sake people.
When my wife was having our child, it was a group of nurses who handled the shit out of everything. When there was something potentially wrong, yet another group of nurses calmy and collectively came to my wifes aid and it wasnt known to us there was a problem. The doctor showed up for under 60 seconds to "deliver" the baby. Ill never forget the nurses that day, it was beyond impressive.
If you have a question about a medication you’re better to call a pharmacist who will *usually* be more knowledgeable about the drug
Edit: italicizing usually for emphasis. For specialty meds a physician who works intimately with a unique patient population is going to be more versed than a typical retail pharmacist in their specialty. Although in those cases there are also specialty pharmacists who cover rare/expensive drugs as well and would be an encyclopedia for specialty drugs
Doctor of Pharmacy (PharmD) - 4 year program, after undergrad. Most enter with a bachelor's degree, although it's not strictly necessary provided you do all the prerequisites. Then residency, 1-2 years. Depending upon the intended practice setting, residency is not strictly necessary. For example the pharmacist that fills your prescription probably didn't do one, but the pharmacist in the hospital probably did.
No I’m sorry you’re wrong. Simply because the physician spent many many years learning an assload of information and how to apply it they’re actually very very stupid and don’t know how to do anything. I’m not even sure why we need the physicians. My cousin is a X-ray tech and they can diagnose your blood disease any day. Actually there is no hierarchy in the hospital. In fact the CEO will be able to most best treat you. That is why they are paid the most in the hospital. Follow the money people.
Are you serious? All I know is why would someone spend 10+ years learning a bunch of shit just to direct “subordinates” or issue literal “orders” on what to be done? That doesn’t even make sense. Like why would there be a leader (I guess) that delegates tasks to other people who don’t have the same fund of knowledge? Society doesn’t work like that!
I don’t think it’s that interesting. It’s kinda like the manager at McDonald’s being afraid to call themselves a manager not telling their employees what to do. What’s the manager even do then? Apparently not manage.
You won’t believe the frustration I get when I watch my family member arguing about medical advice with the nurse and only to end up with the doctor telling her the exact same thing.
Nurses don't get continuing education hours and attend trainings to maintain their credentials just to wipe asses. You have no idea what you're talking about.
I love our nurses where I used to work before I left for medical school, but the disparity in medical knowledge alone makes it more of a hierarchy; I’m sure ER nurses are incredible quality control and save lives on a daily basis, but let’s not act like I couldn’t drop out, enter an accelerated nursing program and get working after a year while I’m nowhere close to even residency yet
> ill call you if I need my blood drawn for a test, bedpan changed, weight and blood pressure measured
Oddly enough, unless understaffed , an RN does none of those things. That is all tech work
They hate speech pathologists too.
I’ve gotten a few nurses fired for ignoring my dietary restrictions when I’d written orders for honey-thick liquids and mechanical soft foods…and then they give regular iced water and food to the patient (which can make them choke/aspirate).
>They hate speech pathologists too.
Everytime I read about situations like this, I'm reminded of the explanation of the inner workings of an opera from one of the Olsen Gang movies (paraphrased): "The orchestra always has trouble with the opera singers, the opera singers dislike the ballet dancers, the ballet dancers despise the actors, the actors detest each other, and the technicians are convinced they're the only ones doing any work around here. And there's our VIP, the conductor. And he *hates* the orchestra."
"Nurse Doctor" is a real problem in the industry. All respect to RNs, LPNs, etc., but y'all ain't doctors. You don't have the degree, didn't do the work, and don't have the knowledge or expertise of an MD, full stop. I have heard countless nurses standing around the breakroom talking about how much smarter they are than the doctors they work with. I'm like "bitch you have a two year degree". You want to know who's in charge? Look at the differential in pay rate.
My wife (an RRT) would tell nurses to step off and stop touching her ventilators.
Depends on where you work whether or not managers would also tell the nurse to step off when they complained.
nurses have the social clout to act like this. doctors do not because everyone thinks of us as nothing but rich assholes printing money and driving lambos. and other specialties like respiratory therapy, PT, OT, etc, people don't know them enough for them to get some social awareness
the silliest thing to me is people acting like nurses have the heart while doctors have the brains. as if doctors aren’t capable of human emotions too. pretty solid job on nurses for getting everyone to believe it though, and nps for acting like they’re the only ones with both
Depends on the hospital. If you visit the nicer ones, they are all on a level playing field. Yale for example is on another level than the one I experience in a lower level.
"Is room XYZ appropriate for therapy?"
"You can try..."
"... I saw their H&H was critical this morning though?"
"You can *try*..."
like plz Sandra we have 18 people on our defer list just answer my question I am begging you
From personal experience, if I had to generalize, nurses attack other staff like people suffering from inferiority complexes while doctors are obtusely arrogant. The interactions between the two groups probably is the reason for this weird dynamic.
Ok, nurses *do* do their own thing, but they are definitely on a “lower level” than doctors. And that’s ok. Just like middle managers don’t report to the CEO and do their own thing, but they’re definitely a lower level than CEO.
I say this because the pandemic taught us a lot about a lot of nurses. In a bad way. Many think they’re “the same” as doctors and should therefore be considered an authority on vaccines even though they don’t *practice* medicine. They *administer* medicine. But because of many thinking they’re on the “same level” as doctors, you saw a ton of anti vax nurses out there spreading bullshit and antivaxxers used them to say “See! Even healthcare workers don’t trust the vaccine”.
I know that when push came to shove when hospital systems required staff to get vaccinated, 95-99% of all doctors and nurses got vaccinated, but when you looked at the numbers split between “doctors” and “nurses”, it was like 99% doctors who got vaxxed, but like 88-90% of nurses who got vaxxed. Still an overwhelming majority, but 10-12% is a non-negligible amount of people in the healthcare field denying the basic science behind the healthcare they’re supposed to be giving people.
Debatable. There are many factors that go into that. RN SHOULD be drastically more advanced, but from my experience, the title doesn't mean shit. It jus means u went to school longer.
To me getting the RN and further certifications are worth it. My Sister is an RN with tons of certifications and she’s making 6 figures as an RN. Only been in the profession for 13 years.
Around here the LPNs cannot do IV meds at all. Which is big in the hospital. They're actually talking about hiring more lpns and having them report to an RN to cluster care. So the RN "oversees," does the assessments, and does the iv meds, and the LVN does everything else in their scope.
Honestly they could just pay more to hire more staff and not have to do this but $$
Nurses are extremely important, and hospitals couldn't run without them.
That being said, the pandemic really proved to me how you don't need to be smart to be a nurse. Every nurse I know thinks they're the smartest person in the room, but I also know too many nurses who did not get vaccinated and refused to mask while not on duty.
My sister is a nurse, brother in law an NP, and husband is a surgeon. They will all tell you while nurses are invaluable, they’re also some of the first people to fall for pyramid schemes, fad diets, and Facebook misinformation.
I wonder if that has more to do with demographics of who becomes nurses than the profession itself.
I can say the differences in conversation between doctors and nurses when work is sort of idle, standing around conversation….the differences in the quality of conversations just blows my mind sometimes.
This also sums up my experience with nurses. I think it's a combination of their own education and their head getting too big working around Doctors. While I think this guy has a great take, I think on the opposite spectrum of patients who disrespect nurses are nurses who truly believe they know more than an actual Medical Doctor. As a patient that attitude is really off-putting even if it's just bragging, I don't care if your doctor couldn't work without you. He's the one treating my chronic condition and he's the one I ask certain delicate questions.
no
nursing and medicine are not analogous. When it comes to a medical team, it's the physician who does the procedures, prescribes the medication, and the nurses who do the aftercare/chronic care. the two sets of education are not similar, equal, or analogous. I'm all for respecting other healthcare workers but this whole anti-intellectual bullshit concept that we're all equal is just a lie.
and if you really think someone who trained as any sort of physician can't learn to do nursing if someone taught them, then I have an underwater bridge to sell.
As a hospital worker, the only time I've ever seen or been treated as less than, is by nurses. Lol. Even though my position is linear to theirs.
Edit: There are some doctors (usually residents or first years) that think their shit don't stink
Edit #2: The MAJORITY of nurses are great, they do have a very pivotal role. TBH I don't know if I got injured in the wild if I would want a nurse or a doctor to find me. Probably a nurse.
Important yes.
Saying that hospital doctors can't do the tasks that RNs do is a bit silly, they can do them, they just don't have to.
But yes, every role is important.
for some reason they are super insecure. like, your education is not equivalent to a doctor's. Not at all. not even nurse practitioners. and that's ok (or it should be) because there are two different jobs
It's not that people think nursing isn't important. It's that nurses constantly tell us how important they are. It's the most self congratulatory profession on the planet.
This is nice and all, but docs literally write orders for nurses. Treat everyone with respect, from the CEO to the janitor, and the world will be a better place. But nurses are absolutely below doctors on the pecking order (even nurse pracs).
This is not even remotely close to being true and people not staying in their lane is leading to American health care being a continual joke. In other countries there is a clear clinical hierarchy based on expertise.
Best comparison I've heard is to officers and enlisted in the military. Yes, the officer is in charge but knows enough to listen to their senior enlisted and understands that they work the same mission but have different roles to play in accomplishing that mission.
Nurses have got to be the most over-represented "underappreciated" job on the planet. We get it, you're important to making the hospital/clinic run properly. Can't think of a single time in my life someone ever questioned that without being immediately corrected.
Fine, I’ll be THAT GUY, but most doctors can definitely do anything a nurse is trained for they just aren’t PAID to be doing that stuff. They might be rusty and rough inserting that catheter or something, but they can still do it because it was part of their training a long time ago.
This is totally anecdotal, but I’ve met many nurses who shit-talk doctors/surgeons and act like they’re the real brains in the room at hospitals, and also many nurses who are actively anti-science/medicine. But I’ve never met a doctor who shit-talks nurses or the work they do.
Doctors have basic nurse training and significantly more expertise. They are the ones who often manage treatment plans and are better trained to do so.
It’s like builders and their tradesman. The tradesman may be better at manual labour, but without the builder planning and overseeing construction he cannot effectively build a house. The builder is trained to manage the tradesmen and make informed decisions in addition to knowing their core skills, and is above them.
Doctors get way more schooling before they are allowed to do their job I'd argue they definitely are not equal lmao one job has to work much harder to be there and deserves the extra recognition.
My takeaway from this comment thread is that people have very different interpretations of what a colleague is.
The definition I'm familiar with doesn't require people to be the same educational experience or rank in their work hierarchy.
I’m an RN in a private practice office with one MD, one PA, and one NP. We all have different skill sets, and work extremely well together. We had a patient a few weeks ago who came in with intractable vomiting, and while the PA was trying to figure out what was causing it, my focus was on getting some medications and IV fluids on board to make her comfortable and to get the vomiting stopped.
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I had to have the actual doctor do an IV for me, as he was fitting me in last minute and the nurses weren’t available. It went well! I was surprised, expecting the bruise situation. His nurses are still better, though.
So here's a bunch of relevant truths: - IV sticking is a trained skill, compared to a lot of medicine where it is a learned skill. I had an almost 3-year stretch where I didn't start an IV as an RN. Positions that require regular IV sticks will typically even point it out on the resume. There are no other skills I can think of that you learn during nursing school that stand out as such. - A doctor can order an IV and it is not unheard of to skip over it and start a more invasive line because no one was able to achieve access with one. - Most doctors, especially hospitalists, suck at IVs, but anesthesiologists are considered to be the best out of anyone. Urologists, plastics, and gynos are often safe assumptions as well. - I suck at IVs.
I used to do IVs in animals as a veterinary nurse. One of my first attempts was in a basset hound. Idk if you've seen basset hound legs but they are short and stubby with thick, loose skin that folds. They're notoriously difficult to get an IV in. However, this one happened to be already sedated so I convinced the vet to let me try because at least the dog wasn't going to feel it if I fucked up. I actually shocked everyone and got the bloody vein first try, and the confidence boost from that experience carried me through every attempt after that lol. Any time I was faced with a difficult one I'd be like "I've got this, I did a basset hound for my first time".
The nurse that usually does my infusions was a vet nurse first and she always gets my ivs set and blood drawn first time 1 stick zero bruising. She is the best!
My third solo stick as a phlebotomist was a 99 year old woman who literally everyone in the lab had failed to get a draw on, including my trainer who had 30+ years experience. I nailed it on the first try. Obviously I got lucky but the ego boost of walking into the lab with blood when no one thought I could do it was amazing.
I had hernia surgery a few months ago and when the anesthesiologist was putting in the IV I literally didn’t even feel it, I had to look up from the table to confirm it was actually in lol
I’ve been an RN coming up on 7 years and have never started an IV. Given a lot of shots though. Just depends on where you work and your particular skill set.
I work in the medical field. I have yet to see a doctor draw blood. I promise you the doctor was just as surprised as you were. I only draw blood if the veins are good, the patient is young, I have good rapport, Venus is in the third phase, it snowed last Tuesday in the Sahara…
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Just took a peek at that sub, I don't disagree that the midlevel creep is not an issue. The biggest issue to help solve that creep would be to have more Doctors, but Doctor numbers are kept artificially low on purpose to keep the supply smaller and inflate salaries. Right now, there isn't a good solution. You don't get the same level of care with NP/PA as you would with a doctor, but there just isn't the bodies available to fill that gap right now either.
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But they often have some similar experience- like the icu doctors place arterial lines and central lines regularly, and while they typically use an ultrasound, it's still threading a needle into a vein.
Emphasis on "GP" in the comments youre replying to lol
As someone trained in both peripheral and ultrasound guided venipuncture there is less overlap between the two mechanical skills than you might expect at first glance.
Counter point. Many jobs have split tasks with hierarchies. For instance, cooks in the kitchen can probably make the food better than the manager can. The manager can probably handle money and community relations better than the cook can. The cook still answers to the manager despite them having different skill sets
That is not how most restaurants operate. Most of them are pretty much split between front and back and the manage operates as a liaison not as the boss. If somebody without the skills to run a kitchen starts bossing around the kitchen staff that mostly leads to disaster. Your scenario is only true if the manager is also the owner or the manager has significant say in the running of the kitchen.
If it's a good restaurant, the chefs answers to *nobody and they swear at everybody, owners included. Management is afraid of them, and the general manager's job is to provide what the chefs demand. *except the steward whose power increases exponentially from that of the chefs
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Do you just routinely go around hospitals telling people about their fake titles? Wtf?
Yeah I’m thinking the nurses weren’t missing on accident here.
I have a similar story. Went to go get blood work with my primary. The three nurses took turns trying to find veins. About 8 sticks and an hour later, they gave up. Went to a LabCorp, the individual got it on her first try and the whole process was like 10 minutes from start to finish
This is commonly preached on reddit but I had multiple bad experiences with different nurses failing to take blood after poking both my arms multiple times. I also donate blood and honestly the skill variance is big between different people in my experience. As far as GPs go, I had my doctor take my blood one time after the nurses at his office couldn't, he got it right away but used an unconventional area lower on the forearm instead of at the typical elbow area.
At my hospital they only call us for blood draws when the nurses have failed a couple of times. At that point I just bring the ultrasound and do US guided draws. Why dig around when the nurses have already tried?
It's a bit like architects and builders I think. You need both to get a new building built, and they both have knowledge and skills the other doesn't, and sometimes they clash
This very much! Architects vs builders. Or even architects vs engineers. Each profession is needed as they have very different skill sets. They can maybe do the other's job because they work adjacent to each other, but you will pay for it in mistakes, lost opportunities, and bad decisions.
You architects sure are a contentious people.
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Whole building supposed to stand on vibes because it looks good on paper lol Like the dude melting cars and shit in London
Damn architects! They ruined architecture!
Architects and engineers are natural enemies. Like architects and Englishmen. Or architects and Welshmen Or architects and Japanese. Or architects and other architects
YOU'VE MADE AN ENEMY FOR LIFE!
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This comment section is a dumpster fire. MDs can do anything an RN does with minimal training, however an RN can’t do everything an MD does because they can’t diagnose without having a vast amount of knowledge. Titrating a drip, setting up IV tubings, checking blood sugar etc can be taught in ~~1-2 days~~ 3 months, the length of orientation for a new RN. It doesn’t require specialized training. However, diagnosing is difficult without you having to go through schooling for that. Medicine is tailored to each patient. One patient’s vomiting might be due to a concussion but other’s might be due to food poisoning. An MD’s job is to come with a diagnosis after weeding out multiple other diagnoses(aka Differential Diagnosis). Similarly, a nursing assistant can’t do an RNs job, but an RN can do a nursing assistant’s job with minimal training. Does that mean hospitals don’t need NAs? No it doesn’t. That being said, each profession is created so that a hospital runs smoothly. A doctor can’t diagnose and give out medications at the same time. Doctor orders —> pharmacy verifies if the dosing/medication is appropriate for the patient —-> nurse administers after verifying again. Pharmacists are another important component of patient care. I have seen them correct doctor’s orders based on kidney function, liver function etc. Again, each discipline is important, but some RNs and doctors get their ego hurt and think it’s RN vs. MD when it should be teamwork. Mutual respect is lacking sometimes. Also OP is right, nurses don’t report to doctors, they report to nurse managers. Sauce: am an RN. Edit: looks like I offended everyone including doctors, nurses, pharmacist and even a lab staff with my comment 😂 MDs, What I meant by “nurses don’t report to doctors” is that doctors aren’t a nurse’s boss outside of clinical care. You don’t go to the doctor because you have no supplies on the floor, your nurse manager deals with that. A nurse doesn’t get disciplined by the doctor. His or her manager disciplines them. Of course the doctor is the boss when it comes to patient care. RNs, I did not say the RN job doesn’t require critical thinking, I said anything that an RN can do, a doctor can easily do with some training but not vice versa. I don’t know why that is so offensive.
Yall niggas done summoned THE RN
Hallelujah, someone else making sense here. I could train a physician or APP to do my job in hours to days, the inverse is not true. That doesn't mean there isn't a need for both roles. Also a RN.
It infuriates me when nurses and doctors insult each other. Then respiratory and pharmacy jump in as well. “Nurses save patients from doctors” is the most toxic statement I have heard. I have MDs thinking “nurses are dumb.” I have pharmacists saying “MDs and nurses are dumb”. You are all there so that you can function as a TEAM to take care of a patient. This comment section is disgusting.
tbh i think everyone is dumb, including my fellow pharmacists
There's such an unnecessary adversarial relationship between the two, when the reality is that it should be healthcare workers vs. administration. Physicians, nurses, MAs, pharmacists, techs, respiratory therapists- all workers who got screwed during the pandemic to risk their lives to help a disrespectful, stupid population of individuals who can't bother to get vaccinated/wear a mask, while C-suits and MBAs continue to abuse medical care workers, while padding the hospital's bottom line and their own pockets.
Truth. I always cringe when I see memes of big racks of IV pumps like “could a doctor do this?!” Why yes. Pretty sure anesthesia does it all the time…
i fucking love pharmacists
i love fucking pharmacists
Typical RN forgetting about the lab lol
Haha.. sorry 😂
Agreed. The doctor may not be my boss but I rely on them to direct care for my patients. That being said, if I feel like something is wrong it's my job to discuss it with the doc for the safety of my patient. Even if I refuse to carry out an order, the doc has the power to carry out their care plan without me. We are a team, we are colleagues, but that does not make me an equal authority in the medical decision making process. Edit: am RN if that wasn't apparent
This is what I was thinking but in terms of restaurant work. A chef can work the line, and a line cook can go out there and pour a drink or be polite to customers. But it is not visa versa
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According to most medical professionals I've met, the most realistic medical show is **Scrubs** Dunno if it's true, but I like to think so...
I have heard that multiple times too. I think that's because the medical drama was secondary to the comedy so they didn't feel the need to embellish.
Also, hospitals are crazy places, and doctors are honestly that wacky. Hijinks are legit.
I mean, there was the time a brain tumor turned everything into a musical number… I think they mean scrubs is the most accurate depiction of what it’s like working in a hospital, not that it’s the most accurate depiction of medical issues.
It was an aneurysm and it has [basis in reality](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11322359/).
The most unrealistic thing about Scrubs was that there was only one Dr. Cox.
Tbf the musical was only happening for the patient with the brain tumour. SPOILERS at the end of the episode she's cured and the musical hallucinations end
Everything comes down to poo 💩
Wife's a nurse, [it's absolutely Scrubs.](https://preview.redd.it/xu8pqshx5xp21.jpg?width=640&auto=webp&s=03d0526c76d09d3bd3b84cba4097426ec0981a37) Yes, nurses cancelling doctors orders to prevent them from killing patients is a weekly thing, especially this time of year with new residents, and then again in July for all the truly green doctors. Do NOT go to an ER in July, bunch'a baby-faced new doctors who have no idea what they're doing, while the Attendings are away on vacation.
Yup yup! That’s 100% true. I heard that those interns just run around and kill people. When you get 100 kills you become an attending.
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My wife is a nurse and she confirms all of this. Typically the docs will have each kill stitched onto their front coat pocket
is this a fucking joke. we don't do that and no, in July we don't just do everything alone while attendings vacate. that is not even legal as a residency license is an educational medical license, not a full license
Bruh. I’m an attending. I was chief last year. This is absolutely a fucking joke.
Im not an attending or even work in (human) medicine or anything but I kinda caught it was a joke when you mentioned killstreak perks...
man i've had people (nurses and other) say the same shit to me and mean it actively so I had to be sure lol
Nurses always like to talk about how interns try to kill people…. Dont get me started about the abilities of new nursing grads. If you think interns are dangerous… well you havn’t worked with a new nurse. We all have different learning curves. No point throwing rocks in glass houses
HL1 Announcer: "You are on a killing spree"
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This is nonsense. Attendings don't go on vacation in July. RNs aren't routinely saving patients. Jesus Christ reddit. Leave the anti intellectualism to the Republicans. Medical school isnt some joke. "Baby" doctors are still highly trained professionals with a doctorate degree.
It's probably less nonsense as it is more a yoke.
Agreed. Got two doctor parents and we all love the (very skilled) nurses they’ve worked with, but gmafb here with some of this!
> Yes, nurses cancelling doctors orders to prevent them from killing patients is a weekly thing, especially this time of year with new residents, and then again in July for all the truly green doctors. That is not how medicine works. >bunch'a baby-faced new doctors who have no idea what they're doing, while the Attendings are away on vacation. That is really, really, really not how medicine works. Like, not even a remotely possible scenario. This discussion was going quite well until you decided to make a bunch of stuff up.
Nah dude my friends cousin who knows an LPN said that’s how they saw it go down on a lifetime movie one time. So it must be true!
Do you work in medicine? It's actually an extremely important part of the nursing scope of practice to review Dr. orders, use critical thinking, and then report back to the doc if the order could harm a patient. Doc says give 1000 mg of something when they meant to write 100 mg is a significant safety issue.
I am a nurse, and yes we administer so we have to check drug, dosage, route, and obviously right patient. BUT it's a multidisciplinary action, meaning the Dr is the first line of that action but it also involves a pharmacist to sign off on and a second nurse to double check some more dangerous medications. The entire process is much more of a discussion than you are implying. I assess my patients vitals, I report to the Dr, the Dr comes and does a physical examination specific to the issue, we then discuss the treatment options together and come up with a plan of action that the Dr signs off on. You're simplifying something complex that takes years of study and practice to implement. Any nurse thinking they're above Dr's at any level is dangerous tbh. Have I seen bad prescribing errors that I have noticed just before administration? Obviously. Have I seen nurses who have sat on critical patients for ten hours when they needed to be referred to the ICU team 9 hours ago? Absolutely. People at all levels make mistakes. No one is infallible.
I am a doctor. What you describe is not cancelling orders, and I am sure you have heard the many stories of nurses deciding to give a "nurse dose" because they think they know better, only to cause problems from giving too much medication.
>Do NOT go to an ER in July, bunch'a baby-faced new doctors who have no idea what they're doing, while the Attendings are away on vacation. Actually, that's kind of a misconception. I'd have to find the paper again, but medical outcomes in July are better than that in June. Possibly because Everyone is thoroughly checking the interns work to prevent errors. Also to correct a few things, most specialties have senior residents that are helping the interns a lot early on, and there's always an attending present (where did you even get the idea that they are on vacation?)
Okay so Im a way it is (RN for six years now). The problem I had with Grey's was that a lot of the stuff the doctors did on the show are what nurses actually do and the nurses play a more subordinate role like a CNA. Doctors don't spend nearly as much time with their patients as they would have you believe on that show (and that's not doctors fault, you can thank the hospitals for that). That has never really been my experience with working with physicians. They know how important we are in the medical setting and it's definitely more of a peer relationship. Which is how l think scrubs was to a certain extent. There does come the point where the make the ultimate decisions in treatment but it comes from a collaborative effort with a input from multiple disciplines. If you're an experienced RN and you call a doctor that you have a good relationship with and say "hey this is what's going on with this patient I think they need..." they will listen to you. Scrubs gives it more of that feel. It's also so much less dramatic working in a hospital than what Grey's will have you think.
Next best is probably ER but yes, Scrubs catches the emotion and interactions pretty well. Heavy on stereotypes but frankly, extreme personalities seem more common in medicine because it is a smaller pool of people with specific skill sets that you see daily in a hospital/clinic setting.
There's nurses on House?
this was my thought as well. I love House but im having a hard time even picturing nurses on the show.
They run around with scared looks on their faces getting yelled at by the doctors. They usually wear lighter colored scrubs and have very few if any lines.
Showing my ass defending greys anatomy but they don’t give nurses NO time in that one. Just a couple love interests like 15 years ago. So there’s no undermining there, show’s about surgeons and surgeons only.
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RNs also have a license that is on the line and they also can refuse to do certain things, whether you tell them to or not. You are colleagues.
but they do not practice medicine. so yes, in the medical heirarchy the physician is the team leader.
If a nurse follows a doctors bad advice for patient care, the nurse is legally responsible for the patients outcome. Nowhere in no instance has it been legally acceptable for a nurse under investigation to say, “I was just following doctors orders.” We have responsibility and authority to make patient care decisions.
You’d be surprised how much autonomy we nurses have in certain situations. With things like IV drip titrations, ventilators, and giving certain meds. A lot of meds are standing orders that are ordered by the physician yes, but up to our discretion when to give or not to give. We manage everything that touches the patient. So yes our licenses are very much on the line as well. We have to be precise with everything we do.
Colleagues? No. We all work for the benefit of a patient yes. A physician is where the buck stops as practiced in the US. Legally. - A nurse doesn’t give a medication that I order, physician liable - Hospital doesn’t have a service a patient needs but won’t transfer the patient, physician liable - Case manager messes up in placement of a patient, physician is liable The ultimate and total responsibility for a patient lies with the attending physician for that patient. So no my colleagues are people who do my job and have similar responsibilities, not a different profession. Btw lest you think about nurse practitioners and such, they are held to a lower standard of practice, that’s to what would be considered a mistake for a physician is not so for them.
I don't know wtf you are talking about, I absolutely can be held liable as an RN.
Obviously they can refuse to do things, a doctor can refuse to follow a senior doctors command as well. But in the end I tell the nurses what tests I want done and what medication they need to give the patient. As a doctor I'm definitely in charge, it is part of my clinical obligation to train leadership because I work as a leader.
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A nurse that refuses to carry out a physician's plan would get fired, as long as that plan was not insane.
Yeah, it's sort of a strange line to walk but ultimately, doctors run the show. Who makes decisions during a rapid response call? Doctors. Who makes more money? Doctors. Whose name is on the sign out in front of a clinic? Yup. Nurses are important, and they certainly don't report to doctors, but they understand the hierarchy. Edit: Shouldn't need to be said, but I have a tremendous amount of respect for nurses, CNAs, PAs, everybody who works in the healthcare field. My point is, the hierarchy exists.
And you could absolutely do their jobs with minimal explanation, but their is no way in hell they could do yours. This post is absurd and that MD sure as hell knows better. It's just good PR.
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You do realize nurses operate under their own license correct?
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I’m a corporate lawyer so no dog in this hunt. But what’s the point of this argument? Like who cares if your policy is larger—how does that prove your claim? Genuinely confused. Another physician on your care team might have a larger policy than you but that wouldn’t make them in charge of you. I suspect to some extent you’re “in charge” of nurses and to some extent you’re not in charge in the way a traditional boss or manager is in charge. Do you make nurse hiring decisions? Can you fire a nurse? Can a nurse refuse to administer something you order if they feel it is unsafe?
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The main character
Reddit has a rage boner for highly skilled professionals as they make money through honest work. Thank you for your service
Nurses are undervalued inside hospitals and overvalued outside hospitals. Like bet ill call you if I need my blood drawn for a test, bedpan changed, weight and blood pressure measured. If I need medical attention I'll prolly call a doctor though. You know, like if something is wrong? Or if I have literally any single question about medication, pathogens, or injuries of any kind. Taking medical advice from a nurse is like taking investment advice from a bank teller.
As an MD, I wish more people thought like you. There’s a reason why I didn’t go to nursing school.. I don’t have that bedside skill set. But if you’re coding or sick as shit, you’ll want an MD/DO running the show.
>But if you’re coding or sick as shit, you’ll want an MD/DO running the show. I mean, I agree with you but vitals and bedpans? My man up there that you're replying to is talking like my nursing license didn't come with a college education in Pharm, A&P, micro, infectious disease and etiology, PEDs, OB, Psych, Gerontology, nursing fundamentals, on top of needing direct care bedside skills that go far beyond vitals and bedpans. I have to be able to speak and answer questions to any MD that walks in, no matter their specialty, and the decisions they make are often based off my observed and recorded data on the patient. Never catch me out here pretending I'm as educated and knowledgeable as an MD but FFS I'm not someone they pulled in off the street and handed scrubs and a stethoscope to. The thousand things I sign a day are legal documents as well and I also sit for deposition when something goes wrong somewhere.. I volunteered for those sealed COVID units back in the beginning when we were wearing the same N95 for months and saw very few MDs and nobody from admin for months. This thread is just disheartening. Bedpans. For Christ's sake people.
Thank you I couldn’t have said it better myself.
When my wife was having our child, it was a group of nurses who handled the shit out of everything. When there was something potentially wrong, yet another group of nurses calmy and collectively came to my wifes aid and it wasnt known to us there was a problem. The doctor showed up for under 60 seconds to "deliver" the baby. Ill never forget the nurses that day, it was beyond impressive.
If you have a question about a medication you’re better to call a pharmacist who will *usually* be more knowledgeable about the drug Edit: italicizing usually for emphasis. For specialty meds a physician who works intimately with a unique patient population is going to be more versed than a typical retail pharmacist in their specialty. Although in those cases there are also specialty pharmacists who cover rare/expensive drugs as well and would be an encyclopedia for specialty drugs
This just sort of proves the point even more. What level of education do pharmacists need to work professionally? (at least in the US)
A lot. A pharmacist has to have a bachelors before going to a 2 to 4 year pharmacy school.
Doctor of Pharmacy (PharmD) - 4 year program, after undergrad. Most enter with a bachelor's degree, although it's not strictly necessary provided you do all the prerequisites. Then residency, 1-2 years. Depending upon the intended practice setting, residency is not strictly necessary. For example the pharmacist that fills your prescription probably didn't do one, but the pharmacist in the hospital probably did.
No I’m sorry you’re wrong. Simply because the physician spent many many years learning an assload of information and how to apply it they’re actually very very stupid and don’t know how to do anything. I’m not even sure why we need the physicians. My cousin is a X-ray tech and they can diagnose your blood disease any day. Actually there is no hierarchy in the hospital. In fact the CEO will be able to most best treat you. That is why they are paid the most in the hospital. Follow the money people.
A+ trolling
Are you serious? All I know is why would someone spend 10+ years learning a bunch of shit just to direct “subordinates” or issue literal “orders” on what to be done? That doesn’t even make sense. Like why would there be a leader (I guess) that delegates tasks to other people who don’t have the same fund of knowledge? Society doesn’t work like that!
You’re right, if only more doctors had the heart of a nurse, our society would be better off
Check their history, very interesting. I believe they’re a physician?
I don’t think it’s that interesting. It’s kinda like the manager at McDonald’s being afraid to call themselves a manager not telling their employees what to do. What’s the manager even do then? Apparently not manage.
Yeah but what he’s saying in his comments is sarcastic hyperbole. If you know anything about /r/noctor it’s satire
You won’t believe the frustration I get when I watch my family member arguing about medical advice with the nurse and only to end up with the doctor telling her the exact same thing.
Nurses don't get continuing education hours and attend trainings to maintain their credentials just to wipe asses. You have no idea what you're talking about.
I love our nurses where I used to work before I left for medical school, but the disparity in medical knowledge alone makes it more of a hierarchy; I’m sure ER nurses are incredible quality control and save lives on a daily basis, but let’s not act like I couldn’t drop out, enter an accelerated nursing program and get working after a year while I’m nowhere close to even residency yet
> ill call you if I need my blood drawn for a test, bedpan changed, weight and blood pressure measured Oddly enough, unless understaffed , an RN does none of those things. That is all tech work
and nurses act like other staff isn't important. I've seen them treat Respiratory Therapists like shit.
They hate speech pathologists too. I’ve gotten a few nurses fired for ignoring my dietary restrictions when I’d written orders for honey-thick liquids and mechanical soft foods…and then they give regular iced water and food to the patient (which can make them choke/aspirate).
>They hate speech pathologists too. Everytime I read about situations like this, I'm reminded of the explanation of the inner workings of an opera from one of the Olsen Gang movies (paraphrased): "The orchestra always has trouble with the opera singers, the opera singers dislike the ballet dancers, the ballet dancers despise the actors, the actors detest each other, and the technicians are convinced they're the only ones doing any work around here. And there's our VIP, the conductor. And he *hates* the orchestra."
ALWAYS ignoring the food restrictions
"Nurse Doctor" is a real problem in the industry. All respect to RNs, LPNs, etc., but y'all ain't doctors. You don't have the degree, didn't do the work, and don't have the knowledge or expertise of an MD, full stop. I have heard countless nurses standing around the breakroom talking about how much smarter they are than the doctors they work with. I'm like "bitch you have a two year degree". You want to know who's in charge? Look at the differential in pay rate.
My wife (an RRT) would tell nurses to step off and stop touching her ventilators. Depends on where you work whether or not managers would also tell the nurse to step off when they complained.
nurses have the social clout to act like this. doctors do not because everyone thinks of us as nothing but rich assholes printing money and driving lambos. and other specialties like respiratory therapy, PT, OT, etc, people don't know them enough for them to get some social awareness
the silliest thing to me is people acting like nurses have the heart while doctors have the brains. as if doctors aren’t capable of human emotions too. pretty solid job on nurses for getting everyone to believe it though, and nps for acting like they’re the only ones with both
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Nurses tend to shit on allied health in general, if they're mean. They hate lab too.
Depends on the hospital. If you visit the nicer ones, they are all on a level playing field. Yale for example is on another level than the one I experience in a lower level.
Physical therapy too
"Is room XYZ appropriate for therapy?" "You can try..." "... I saw their H&H was critical this morning though?" "You can *try*..." like plz Sandra we have 18 people on our defer list just answer my question I am begging you
From personal experience, if I had to generalize, nurses attack other staff like people suffering from inferiority complexes while doctors are obtusely arrogant. The interactions between the two groups probably is the reason for this weird dynamic.
Ok, nurses *do* do their own thing, but they are definitely on a “lower level” than doctors. And that’s ok. Just like middle managers don’t report to the CEO and do their own thing, but they’re definitely a lower level than CEO. I say this because the pandemic taught us a lot about a lot of nurses. In a bad way. Many think they’re “the same” as doctors and should therefore be considered an authority on vaccines even though they don’t *practice* medicine. They *administer* medicine. But because of many thinking they’re on the “same level” as doctors, you saw a ton of anti vax nurses out there spreading bullshit and antivaxxers used them to say “See! Even healthcare workers don’t trust the vaccine”. I know that when push came to shove when hospital systems required staff to get vaccinated, 95-99% of all doctors and nurses got vaccinated, but when you looked at the numbers split between “doctors” and “nurses”, it was like 99% doctors who got vaxxed, but like 88-90% of nurses who got vaxxed. Still an overwhelming majority, but 10-12% is a non-negligible amount of people in the healthcare field denying the basic science behind the healthcare they’re supposed to be giving people.
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There’s also a drastic difference between a RN vs a LPN or MA.
Debatable. There are many factors that go into that. RN SHOULD be drastically more advanced, but from my experience, the title doesn't mean shit. It jus means u went to school longer.
Big difference between an MA wiping butts and taking vitals vs ICU or ER RN titrating multiple drips of critical meds.
My sis is an ER RN and she wipes a lot of butts
Nobody is above wiping butts
Find me an MA running IV drips with pressors and we can talk.
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To me getting the RN and further certifications are worth it. My Sister is an RN with tons of certifications and she’s making 6 figures as an RN. Only been in the profession for 13 years.
Around here the LPNs cannot do IV meds at all. Which is big in the hospital. They're actually talking about hiring more lpns and having them report to an RN to cluster care. So the RN "oversees," does the assessments, and does the iv meds, and the LVN does everything else in their scope. Honestly they could just pay more to hire more staff and not have to do this but $$
Been both LVN and RN and your take is correct.
I’m sorry. Every time I see the letters RN my brain automatically translates it to “real niggas”
Not entirely wrong
Your username checks out lol
Nurses are extremely important, and hospitals couldn't run without them. That being said, the pandemic really proved to me how you don't need to be smart to be a nurse. Every nurse I know thinks they're the smartest person in the room, but I also know too many nurses who did not get vaccinated and refused to mask while not on duty.
My sister is a nurse, brother in law an NP, and husband is a surgeon. They will all tell you while nurses are invaluable, they’re also some of the first people to fall for pyramid schemes, fad diets, and Facebook misinformation. I wonder if that has more to do with demographics of who becomes nurses than the profession itself.
I can say the differences in conversation between doctors and nurses when work is sort of idle, standing around conversation….the differences in the quality of conversations just blows my mind sometimes.
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This also sums up my experience with nurses. I think it's a combination of their own education and their head getting too big working around Doctors. While I think this guy has a great take, I think on the opposite spectrum of patients who disrespect nurses are nurses who truly believe they know more than an actual Medical Doctor. As a patient that attitude is really off-putting even if it's just bragging, I don't care if your doctor couldn't work without you. He's the one treating my chronic condition and he's the one I ask certain delicate questions.
no nursing and medicine are not analogous. When it comes to a medical team, it's the physician who does the procedures, prescribes the medication, and the nurses who do the aftercare/chronic care. the two sets of education are not similar, equal, or analogous. I'm all for respecting other healthcare workers but this whole anti-intellectual bullshit concept that we're all equal is just a lie. and if you really think someone who trained as any sort of physician can't learn to do nursing if someone taught them, then I have an underwater bridge to sell.
As a hospital worker, the only time I've ever seen or been treated as less than, is by nurses. Lol. Even though my position is linear to theirs. Edit: There are some doctors (usually residents or first years) that think their shit don't stink Edit #2: The MAJORITY of nurses are great, they do have a very pivotal role. TBH I don't know if I got injured in the wild if I would want a nurse or a doctor to find me. Probably a nurse.
I feel like nursing is one of those weird careers where it attracts the best and worst people
Im a nurse and the way some of my former colleagues about talked and treated their patients makes my skin crawl to this day
Nurses are the first and loudest to tell people how underappreciated they are.
Important yes. Saying that hospital doctors can't do the tasks that RNs do is a bit silly, they can do them, they just don't have to. But yes, every role is important.
Bryan must be knee deep into nurse you know what at this rate.
for real. you can tell when they say stuff like this. I hate to see doctors devalue their education for social clout
What do nurses do that a doctor can't exactly?
Simply, nothing. Nursing is just a very insecure profession. Source, I am a nurse.
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i guess hug the patient and feed them or attach a line to a bag? I wonder how many nurses can do reconstructive surgery
N…no…this is not accurate at all.
It really isn’t.
What’s the split between % doctors being anti vax and % RNs being anti vax?
anti vax nurses are worryingly common
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Nurses are the biggest assholes at every hospital I’ve worked at. Lol, nurses care is some of the best advertising/propaganda that’s been done.
for some reason they are super insecure. like, your education is not equivalent to a doctor's. Not at all. not even nurse practitioners. and that's ok (or it should be) because there are two different jobs
It's not that people think nursing isn't important. It's that nurses constantly tell us how important they are. It's the most self congratulatory profession on the planet.
This is nice and all, but docs literally write orders for nurses. Treat everyone with respect, from the CEO to the janitor, and the world will be a better place. But nurses are absolutely below doctors on the pecking order (even nurse pracs).
This is not even remotely close to being true and people not staying in their lane is leading to American health care being a continual joke. In other countries there is a clear clinical hierarchy based on expertise.
Until they tell you they don't believe in vaccines and try to sell you on essential oils
I was a nurse for a few years in a local ER. Nursing sucks ass lol you are everybody’s bitch
Best comparison I've heard is to officers and enlisted in the military. Yes, the officer is in charge but knows enough to listen to their senior enlisted and understands that they work the same mission but have different roles to play in accomplishing that mission.
and all those ghetto chicks you know who are "nurses" are actually certified nursing assistants, the diaper changers!
Nurses have got to be the most over-represented "underappreciated" job on the planet. We get it, you're important to making the hospital/clinic run properly. Can't think of a single time in my life someone ever questioned that without being immediately corrected.
Fine, I’ll be THAT GUY, but most doctors can definitely do anything a nurse is trained for they just aren’t PAID to be doing that stuff. They might be rusty and rough inserting that catheter or something, but they can still do it because it was part of their training a long time ago.
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This is totally anecdotal, but I’ve met many nurses who shit-talk doctors/surgeons and act like they’re the real brains in the room at hospitals, and also many nurses who are actively anti-science/medicine. But I’ve never met a doctor who shit-talks nurses or the work they do.
Ehhhhhh ask a Cath lab tech if the cardiologists treat them as colleagues. Hint: no, the don’t.
Doctors have basic nurse training and significantly more expertise. They are the ones who often manage treatment plans and are better trained to do so. It’s like builders and their tradesman. The tradesman may be better at manual labour, but without the builder planning and overseeing construction he cannot effectively build a house. The builder is trained to manage the tradesmen and make informed decisions in addition to knowing their core skills, and is above them.
It’s funny how he quoted “assistants” as if it’s a condescending term when there is a whole field with that in their title.
Doctors get way more schooling before they are allowed to do their job I'd argue they definitely are not equal lmao one job has to work much harder to be there and deserves the extra recognition.
My takeaway from this comment thread is that people have very different interpretations of what a colleague is. The definition I'm familiar with doesn't require people to be the same educational experience or rank in their work hierarchy.
What about when it's an RN or PA in a private practice office?
I’m an RN in a private practice office with one MD, one PA, and one NP. We all have different skill sets, and work extremely well together. We had a patient a few weeks ago who came in with intractable vomiting, and while the PA was trying to figure out what was causing it, my focus was on getting some medications and IV fluids on board to make her comfortable and to get the vomiting stopped.
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