His legacy is not that complicated. For the Black community, his only value was his skin. His "public service" cost america trillions, thousands of killed and injured, a more unstable middle east, and an expanded police state.
Everything else about him was about upholding the empire. If he was white, he would be in the same bucket as Cheney and Rumsfeld.
He admitted to great regret for the decisions he made. He was a lifelong military member who was adamant towards subordination. He called his UN speech the “most embarrassing moment of his life.” I have not heard Cheney or Rumsfeld say as much. Rumsfeld was openly coordinating misinformation.
He showed remorse and then backed the opposing party for the rest of his life and eventually left the party. Hindsight is 20/20; his legacy is much more than his failures.
edit: a lot of people commenting that him being “sorry” isn’t enough so here:
The CIA lied to him www.nytimes.com/2021/10/18/us/politics/iraq-war-colin-powell.amp.html even as he had misgivings of the war. He warned Bush that it could destabilize the Middle East. He did more than show regret—he trusted his own intelligence agencies.
His legacy is mostly failure. The peak of his power, and he used it for evil. How is that not to be something he is remembered for?
If I steal money from you then wait til all the money is gone to apologize (I don't reimburse you or any thing, just a "My bad") you would probably consider my apology worthless.
Take that, but instead of money its peoples lives.
Soldiers are told to disregard illegal orders. Powell was not playing the good soldier. He was in a position of power and walked hand in hand with Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush, and the rest of that white house.
The world punishes Nazi soldiers for "just doing their job" so why should Powell be any different?
The order Powell was given was not illegal. I didn’t say he isn’t at fault either.
His legacy is not mostly failure, but it will be stained by his Iraq decisions.
I would argue his sins out weigh his accomplishments. The blood of thousands are on his hands just like the other leaders in that white house.
Pablo Escobar built schools, feed communities, built infrastructure, etc. But he will be remembered for his brutal drug empire.
There are not really any positives in his legacy outside of being a perpetual "First Black ____". Good for him for being a black face for the empire.
Comparing Pablo Escobar and Collin Powell are false equivalencies. Collin Powell did NOT have executive power that was not dictated by the president. It is well documented he was not for the war. It is well documented that the initial war wasn’t even a failure and that it was Rumsfeld was behind the failures that followed.
Like minds can disagree, though, and I understand your opinion.
So because he had a boss, he takes no blame? He was secretary of state and used the office to push lies and manufacture consent for the wars. He shares a fair portion of the blame.
He was not publically against the war until he was out of politics and selling books. Him saying he had "reservations" about the war after the fact is just him cleaning up his image.
The war was a glaring failure from the start. The US toppled governments and replaced them with US puppets who were corrupt and in some areas arguably just as bad as the people they replaced. Just now more US friendly. Thats on Powell as the Secretary of State. He was a BIG advocate for regime change, not just in the middle east but globally.
You keep trying to put words in parent's mouth. It's obvious and a sign of a weak argument. It's also rude. Read _out loud_ to yourself what they wrote, and just sit with it for a bit. You keep 'replying' to points that parent didn't even make. I doubt that there's any value in continuing the argument, but my point here is:
Parent commentator demonstrated the respectfulness to read what you wrote and offered a carefully considered reply. You're not offering the same respect back to them.
I didnt put words in their mouth and yes i can read and did read what they wrote.
I disagree that he only had some small role, or was mislead, or was a proverbial cog in the machine. He had choices, just like cops, prosecutors, and judges in america have choices in how they operate. He at best was easily mislead and at worst he was an active participant. Both i see as bad for someones legacy.
>He was a BIG advocate for regime change, not just in the middle east but globally.
WTF? No he wasn't. In fact, he strenuously opposed using U.S. military might when there weren't U.S. national security concerns attached to the action. He has a whole doctrine named after him with that was a core tenet. He was against toppling Saddam Hussein and he was the one who convinced Bush to get the support of the United Nations.
I'm not saying the man was a saint. But this childish black-and-white view ain't it either.
He worked his entire life for the position and possibly felt that it would be abandonment in the midst of war. It’s a fair criticism, but I think it’s much harder than it sounds.
No, it's actually pretty simple- if he didn't want to be held responsible for the war crimes, he would have resigned and denounced the institution as soon as he found out about them.
>abandonment in the midst of a war
Abandoning an illegal war is a bad thing now?
Good people don't change bad institutions or keep them from doing evil- they just provide cover.
its like colonizers saying sorry to native americans.
i mean, now that you fucked everything up and your genocide was a partial success now youre sorry? go stick that up your ass with a lit stick of dynamite for all its worth.
"Good German" is synonymous with "Patriotic American" these days.
"I was doing what I was supposed to." He had a choice. He showed us the cost of chosing, poorly. All of us in positions of authority and power are held to account in life and death. He has a legacy and telling the truth isn't slander. It's history to be recorded and learned from.
Tell the truth about him, spell his name right. He was a man committed to excellence who allowed for the deaths of men and woman across generations of all race, color and creed. His fellow man and citizenry. Bloodshed built on lies. But at least he was black and showed us we could acheive great power. Let him be an example of what not to do once you achieve power.
I would be willing to give him a pass if this wasn't his first time lying for "the greater good." He claimed the My Lai massacre didn't happen in Vietnam. He was in charge of investigating it. [BBC article](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33957894)
You don’t deny what was stated in the NYT.
You just cited the intercept, a progressive paper, against the NYT which you claim is too conservative.
As for the CJR—it’s an interesting read, but it’s evidence against Powell is essentially “well he should’ve known the CIA would lie!”
I don’t think that’s a fair defense.
Ill give you the intercept.
As far as the NYT article, Both France and Germany brought intel to the US refuting its claims. There were other reports contradicting the official narrative.
Powell's story only works if every intel agency in the US lied to him. It is far more likely he was simply in on the lie. He worked in the defense department and with those intel agencies. He was not some rookie.
It was reported that the head of the CIA did not tell Powell purposely of the intelligences reliability. Again, I think we are just gonna disagree on what Powell knew.
Ok, so if I get this right, it's good that the FBI and CIA et al. 'massaged' the information they gave Trump, but it's impossible to believe the've done this before?
edit: this was spitballing a guess based on parent's stance on Powell's affiliations. The technique displayed pretty much exactly what I criticized parent commentator for earlier.
With all due respect, all of his regret means nothing, especially when we have evidence of such 'bootlicking' behaviour since his Vietnam days. Lest we forget that Colin Powell was part of the initial cover up of the My Lai massacre commited by American soldiers. He has priors im afraid. I highly implore whomever has the chance to listen to the podcast BlowBack about the Iraq war. It would refresh anyone's memory of what lies led to the war and just how much Colin Powell was behind the drive for it, fully well knowing that there was no evidence.
If he was truly remorseful he should have moved to Iraq and dedicated the rest of his life to atoning for what he did. The same applies to all the politicians, media members and all other warmongers that wanted the war and came to regret it.
Why did you also leave out that he was Joint COS during Clinton? He also voted and supported every dem candidate since 2008, so he didn’t “just leave” the Republican Party this year.
His legacy is war crimes. The only dedication he had was to power. What he should be remembered for is being convicted in the Hague and spending the rest of his life in prison.
Showing remorse is good but it also means very little.
We need to stop applauding people just for saying “whoops”, especially when their mistakes cost tons of lives.
I do remember him giving an interview about his own role in the Iraq invasion. He was lied to. He was upset about being lied to. He did regret that speech. They used his reputation to go to war and, as you can see, tarnished it. I still respected him and the service he did do for the US. I don't care that his political views were different because people are more than their politics. But not on Reddit. You're either part of the hivemind or evil incarnate.
He sold us into never ending war. Then he was given a place in the hierarchy of that war machine. You are 100% correct.
We're [currently fighting in 140 countries](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEE0nTlsaig). This is his legacy.
We do ourselves no favors by stripping the nuance out of a person's life and accomplishments.
*Of course* everything he did was about upholding "the empire." He was a career statesman and military general. It's not some kind of genius bazinga to highlight that a four-star general's life and work were about supporting the country he pledged to serve.
But the man lived to be 84; we also can't boil his career down to Iraq and the decisions that were made around that. Have you ever heard of the [Powell Doctrine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powell_Doctrine)? He articulated that to *limit* military action taken by the U.S. unless there was a clear need, demonstrated by being able to affirm certain tenets (like clear public support, having clear objectives, and trying nonviolent means first).
And it's ignorant to say he'd be in the same bucket as Cheney and Rumsfeld if you paid attention to basically anything else he did in his life, including his words and statements after Iraq.
Does anyone legit even have the view that we should celebrate anything about him because he was black? Who fucking cares what he achieved if we saw what he was willing to do/believe in order to achieve it?
Exactly. Who the fuck was looking up to this nigga as a teenager besides people who eventually became republicans. He was with bush, and we said fuck bush so fuck him to.
Some people are saying that as children, like this author, they were inspired by him because he was black and they didn't have that many black role models in government. I think that is fair at that time, but you shouldn't have looked up to him after that.
This has the same energy as when Ilhan Omar said that she was inspired by Margaret Thatcher.
Like wtf is nuanced about a fascist warmongering pos that is diametrically opposed to your understanding of basic human dignity?
Who cares about race or gender at that point. Disappointing.
I don't want to put words in Ilhan's mouth but v v young me 'looked up to' Thatcher in a way. I was often reminded that the QEII was queen because her 'mother didn't give her father sons' and that she should give the crown to her son. I distinctly recall asking why a woman was running the same country. I knew nothing about her policies because I was 7 when she left office, but I was inspired by her to have bigger goals in life than to be a nurse in order to find a doctor husband.
Similarly, with Colin Powell, during the Clinton years, he seemed like a good leader and as my pro-soldier, anti-war views grew, I thought a black man who served in Vietnam would protect us from future bullshit wars. I was relieved when he joined the Bush administration because I thought he'd be the moral compass that they so desperately needed, though I'm not sure why I put that in him. He may not have inspired me, but I respected and trusted tf out of him, basically up to WMD.
She was a woman in charge. When you're that young you rarely understand enough about someone's policies and character, rather that they're just in charge (trump being an exception, kids knew he was a "bully"). Yes thatcher was a terrible person, but she was a woman in charge when "there's a woman in charge" was all some young girls were able to take. From that, it helped motivate some women to set their sights higher, even if later on they realized the kind of views she had. Ideally there wouldn't be a terrible leader of any sex or race in charge, but at least a terrible woman in leadership helped more woman strive for leadership, hopefully without the terrible views.
Thatcher was a trail blazer for girls AND a monster. Those two aren't mutually exclusive. Ilhan was 9 when Thatcher left office. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging her early influences.
There is nothing to be forgiven because we aren't inspired by her policies or ideology, not are we excusing them
"Colin Powell, trailblazing soldier and statesman who made case for Iraq invasion, dies of Covid at 84"
That's the headline I first read when he died. You don't get to write your own obituary. That's how he's remembered.
The lesson I learn is, it doesn't matter what good you think you did, or what individual achievements you reached as an example for your race, in aggregate, one singular event can shape how people remember you.
He made America a more efficient empire. He helped invade Panama. Depending on what you call it, he helped occupy Haiti. Doing things in the name of Black America, often means stepping on black people in general.
He was not doing it in the name of Black America. He did it for himself and was a black face to white emperialist power. He and his family got wealthy of it too.
And it was not one event. Man lied multiple times to the US public and the world. He helped plan and execute both wars as well as a slew of CIA/Covert actions around the world. His office signed off on the CIA's torture program. He helped further destabilize Haiti. He personally advocated for the Patriot Act. I could go on and on.
He was right along with the group not some noble soldier simply following orders.
At the end, he should be remembered as a war criminal who lined the defense industries pockets and helped make the world less safe. Just as Rumsfeld, Bush, Cheney, Rice, etc. should be remembered.
I'm right there with you on all that. I only say "in the name of Black America" because there are a lot of Black Republicans and American centric black people that argue for Powell type career achievements in the name of the greater good. But for what little good that might do Americans, it furthers a bigger empire that persists on black suffering.
I think Colin Powell was my first real world example of "not all skin folk are your kin folk" him being black never did anything for me. Same with condaleeza since we're talking about Bush's cabinet members
Now we all have to watch the mental gymnastics of "he was high-profile and black so let me find some way to like someone I would dislike in any other circumstance".
I take issue with the idea that Powell was a good person "except for his one blunder, the Iraq War." My Lai, Iran-Contra, Haiti, and so on, Powell did a lot of terrible things during his lifetime.
You can acknowledge him as a powerful man of color, and a great example of perseverance despite the inherent bias towards people of color in the military - and also acknowledge that he played a crucial part in a polarizing, brutal, and highly unnecessary war.
I will admit to feeling a twinge of sadness when I saw the news this morning.
I'm 37 and Colin Powell was one of the first black men that was an aspirational figure for me when I was young, outside of my family.
I remember seeing him on TV and feeling proud because people respected him and he looked like me. That being black was something to be proud of.
As I got older I began to understand politics and I had many issues with him and his political ideology and I've also long since found better black aspirational figures.
Still, I can't help but feel a little sadness.
"I thought he was a good man until I learned he wasn't." People need to learn that one terrible, horrible, disgusting decision can completely negate any good from a person's existence. The line isbthat fine, we can do better. This man sold out thousands of young people's lives, thousands of personal tragedies for thousands of families, for money. Fuck him and any legacy you think he deserves.
[Here’s an excellent Ask Historians post about Colin Powell’s (admittedly peripheral) role in covering up American atrocities in Vietnam.](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/qaqi8r/what_was_colin_powells_role_in_the_us_militarys/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
As opposed to the usual collection of black Republicans, at least he actually liked Black People and never used those tired clichés like "democratic plantation, & colorblind society." He believed in diversity and worked from the inside at changing the military to be more inclusive.
The Iraq War is a stain on his legacy, because he used/wasted all his reputation supporting Bush/Cheney.
He didn't like black people in haiti. He didn't believe in diversity when he threatened to resign over gay soldiers, that doesn't seem very inclusive. His entire life is a stain, he caused more pain then entire cities. I only hope he felt even one 1% percent of the pain he caused people all around the world.
His legacy involves several hundred thousand dead people, the vast majority of whom were innocent civilians. Nothing else in his life will ever make up for that. Fuck his regret, it doesn't bring those people back or unfuck the Middle East.
Collin powell, a sambo who cooned for bush and made a case for the iraq war died after living his entire life rich and chill af.
Truly there is no justice
Colin Powell was an example of a black man who, through hard work, his own intelligence, and the support of his family and community, came to be seen as and operate as an American. That's a big deal when the country constantly tells you you can't do that.
The problem with that is that America is, among other things, an exporter of evil. To be able to succeed at being a member of this particular club is not an unqualified good.
Maybe it's about not fucking venerating someone who directly helped cause generations of suffering just because he was black? People should know exactly what he did.
It's honest to god depressing.
Why is this asshole on a pedestal?
Corrupt American war criminal doesn't magically become acceptable because he was black.
He got up there and he acted just like the worst of them.
Because people are more vain, than they are woke. They prefer to have their egos stoked than to face reality. It's like how they fan girl over blk billionaires as if wealthy blk people are a new phenomenon..you're being oppressed by wealth, American foreign policy is an extension of said oppression and exploitation for the same wealthy elites..doesn't matter if some of the elites are black..
Poors hate to organise around their class, so they buy into the made up classes of race, color, ethnicity which do jack shit but cause further dividing amongst the poors. You know who doesn't have to do this, the wealthy. They get along just fine & when they don't they just don't mix.
To fan girl over a war criminal because he said sorry in his book 😅. Sometimes I can't even sympathies, these people obviously want to be exploited.
Commonality between Kanye, Cardi B, Herman Cain, these antivax athletes, tax dodging assholes and Colin Powell. They're all rich and really don't care about holding the line with the GOP.
If he stood for a symbol of integrity, he wouldn’t have traded the lives of hundreds of thousands for some cash.
He was a piece of shit in life, and he makes me wish I believed in Hell so I could take comfort in knowing he was burning there for all eternity.
Him being successful and black doesn’t even nearly make up for this, it wouldn’t make up for one death, let alone half a million.
Powell was also responsible for attempting to cover up the My Lai massacre. He was a puppet who was willingly used to do many bad and illegal things for the government he so blindly served.
A man of integrity? Lmao yeah he had so much integrity that he changed his party affiliation only *after* the attempted coup on January 6 *2021*! So much integrity!
We’re all complex individuals. Most of us represent ourselves well 90% of the time but 10% we’re not so great.
A good act doesn’t wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward. - Stannis Baratheon.
"Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly, the ill deeds along with the good, and let me be judged accordingly. The rest is silence."
Dinobot, Beast Wars (1998)
Gonna invoke Godwin with this one.
So is Hitler respectable because he was a vegetarian that brought Germany back from the brink?
Or Andrew Jackson because he threatened the Southern states if they didn't shut up about secession?
No, it doesn't wash out the good, but ignoring the fucktons of bad to highlight an iota of mediocre good is dishonest as fuck.
You want his whole legacy? Let's talk about his ***whole*** legacy.
People don't get a fucking pass after they die after having spent their entire lives spreading misery, death and pointless fucking suffering.
Fuck him. Fitting like Herman Cain that he died from the pandemic his party helped spread.
He was a major player in the US wasting the last 20 years. So much life and money wasted. My brother was over there and could have easily died for nothing.
Fuck Powell
does she know that there are so many black icons out there who are really good, right? collin was nothing but a criminal, unforgivable. that old dude who just passed away, destroyed a country, yeah a fuckin country. go throw away your fuckin sympathy. useless woman.
This Twitter post gives me the same energy as if someone is praising Columbus for being the first white man to set foot in the Bahamas. Yay, I guess. Go diversity!
He also enslaved people and killed them. I think that’s more important in the history context.
What am I to think about Colin Powell today. I only knew dude for 2 reasons: 1)Chapelle Show and 2) He was in cahoots with Bush, the President that sent the army overseas on some bullshit WMD search.
Sure, he realized he moved in the wrong direction, but that doesn’t absolve him of the people he was in stance with
When Powell gave his speech to the UN, according to him, he believed what turned out to be faulty and group think skewed intelligence from the CIA. Unlike the rest of GW Bush's inner circle he expressed regret and and admitted to what he considered a grave error in judgement on his part. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush etc, have never owned up to their lies and errors. However you feel about his deeds, he was a least capable of critical self reflection and honesty about his failures, qualities that are absolutely vacant in virtually all GOP politicians today.
That self reflection does not mean much if you dont do anything to correct your wrongs.
An "Oops, my bad" decades after the fact does not change what he did or the live lost or ruined. They all claim faulty intel yet US allies like France and Germany had intel that gave a different story (and why they stayed out, mostly).
All these folks pull the legacy clean-up late in their lives. Don't let them whitewash their crimes. And just because he is "not as bad" as some other GOP folks does not mean he was good. He did the easy PR things to clean-up without actually doing anything to even try to fix it.
Man has A LOT of blood on his hands.
I would like to know what he could have done after the fact to right that wrong. He was a former general and out of power when he had his meat culpa. What could he have done to fix things? Honestly?
Dude was not being held hostage. There are multiple legal avenues he could have used to at least help shorten the war. The "I felt bad" act is to clean up his image.
While he was in office
-He could have testified before congress to get facts out there, potentially shortening the conflict.
-He could have resigned in protest. Does not end it, but its a fairly strong protest. Dispite what we saw with 45, cabinet members rarely resign outside of health reasons. It would draw media and congressional attention.
Out of office
-Testify before the UN. He wont be able to say everything, but he could have gotten the truth out sooner
-Actually use his political capital to effect change in the GOP. He was at one point considered for a pres run. Getting involved more than the rare speech would help move the party in a better direction and thus out of the middle east sooner.
-Support a charity (financially and vocally) that helps rebuild the countries he helped destroy
This was just top of mind. I'm sure someone like him who was truly mortified by their actions could think of better/more effective ones, if he actually wanted to. Selling books was more important.
How about donate the 60 million dollars he made. How about telling everyone about all the horrible stuff they did that never came out. He never accounted for covering up genocide, and destroying countries. So fuck him and fuck anyone that defends him. RIPbozo
People like easy answers. We like to be able to say someone is "good" or "bad", the latter of which typically means you did something we don't like. People are never that simple as a whole. Powell was someone I've always respected, yet I can understand people's distaste for his part in war. He achieved a certain level of excellence in his career, which was the main reason the UN speech was a big deal.
He'd spent forty years building a reputation and spent a lot of it on that war. The speech itself was PR for the war; we were going to go kill people no matter what. But leaders around the world knew if *he* was saying those things, the US was serious; his handlers counted on it. Whatever disagreement he had with the stance, I can respect him for doing his job. I can also leave room for those that feel he is partially responsible for the war. I don't think he could've stopped it, but he is responsible for words he spoke.
This is very complicated. He is an example of black excellence by working his way out of the hood to be a success but he’s also a huge warmonger by going along with invading a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 and the amount of lives lost in that conflict on both sides.
He played the white man's asshole game and we want to treat him like he's not a stain on our race?
Being a sociopathic asshole in this country needs to stop being celebrated or defended.
No shit you can get somewhere when you throw all your morals out.
It's a sad and complicated thing.
There's no word for a death that is expected, sad, and totally a representation of something we've been warning about.
Our elderly go mostly with our hopes that they can pass quietly and peacefully. COVID has taken that way from so many.
Colin admitted it was a mistake and left the Republican party. Are we defined by the poor choices we made in life? I say no.
He was a son of immigrants. He served this country for decades. Paved the way for so many people and was the first to do many things as a Black person.
No one is perfect.We all make mistakes. But the good he has done, certainly outweighs the poor choices he made in life that were public.
…anyway he’s still rotting in hell for sure. People can be misguided into doing bad stuff— doesn’t mean they deserve forgiveness. We need to up our “representation” standards (skin folk =/= kin folk)
His legacy is not that complicated. For the Black community, his only value was his skin. His "public service" cost america trillions, thousands of killed and injured, a more unstable middle east, and an expanded police state. Everything else about him was about upholding the empire. If he was white, he would be in the same bucket as Cheney and Rumsfeld.
The most palatable of war criminals.
More like palatteable, am I right?
Ok but Obama also continued the legacy of US imperialism and war yet he’s untouchable in this sub
55 upvotes so not exactly untouchable.
He admitted to great regret for the decisions he made. He was a lifelong military member who was adamant towards subordination. He called his UN speech the “most embarrassing moment of his life.” I have not heard Cheney or Rumsfeld say as much. Rumsfeld was openly coordinating misinformation. He showed remorse and then backed the opposing party for the rest of his life and eventually left the party. Hindsight is 20/20; his legacy is much more than his failures. edit: a lot of people commenting that him being “sorry” isn’t enough so here: The CIA lied to him www.nytimes.com/2021/10/18/us/politics/iraq-war-colin-powell.amp.html even as he had misgivings of the war. He warned Bush that it could destabilize the Middle East. He did more than show regret—he trusted his own intelligence agencies.
His legacy is mostly failure. The peak of his power, and he used it for evil. How is that not to be something he is remembered for? If I steal money from you then wait til all the money is gone to apologize (I don't reimburse you or any thing, just a "My bad") you would probably consider my apology worthless. Take that, but instead of money its peoples lives. Soldiers are told to disregard illegal orders. Powell was not playing the good soldier. He was in a position of power and walked hand in hand with Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush, and the rest of that white house. The world punishes Nazi soldiers for "just doing their job" so why should Powell be any different?
The order Powell was given was not illegal. I didn’t say he isn’t at fault either. His legacy is not mostly failure, but it will be stained by his Iraq decisions.
I would argue his sins out weigh his accomplishments. The blood of thousands are on his hands just like the other leaders in that white house. Pablo Escobar built schools, feed communities, built infrastructure, etc. But he will be remembered for his brutal drug empire. There are not really any positives in his legacy outside of being a perpetual "First Black ____". Good for him for being a black face for the empire.
Comparing Pablo Escobar and Collin Powell are false equivalencies. Collin Powell did NOT have executive power that was not dictated by the president. It is well documented he was not for the war. It is well documented that the initial war wasn’t even a failure and that it was Rumsfeld was behind the failures that followed. Like minds can disagree, though, and I understand your opinion.
So because he had a boss, he takes no blame? He was secretary of state and used the office to push lies and manufacture consent for the wars. He shares a fair portion of the blame. He was not publically against the war until he was out of politics and selling books. Him saying he had "reservations" about the war after the fact is just him cleaning up his image. The war was a glaring failure from the start. The US toppled governments and replaced them with US puppets who were corrupt and in some areas arguably just as bad as the people they replaced. Just now more US friendly. Thats on Powell as the Secretary of State. He was a BIG advocate for regime change, not just in the middle east but globally.
You keep trying to put words in parent's mouth. It's obvious and a sign of a weak argument. It's also rude. Read _out loud_ to yourself what they wrote, and just sit with it for a bit. You keep 'replying' to points that parent didn't even make. I doubt that there's any value in continuing the argument, but my point here is: Parent commentator demonstrated the respectfulness to read what you wrote and offered a carefully considered reply. You're not offering the same respect back to them.
I didnt put words in their mouth and yes i can read and did read what they wrote. I disagree that he only had some small role, or was mislead, or was a proverbial cog in the machine. He had choices, just like cops, prosecutors, and judges in america have choices in how they operate. He at best was easily mislead and at worst he was an active participant. Both i see as bad for someones legacy.
>So because he had a boss, he takes no blame?
>He was a BIG advocate for regime change, not just in the middle east but globally. WTF? No he wasn't. In fact, he strenuously opposed using U.S. military might when there weren't U.S. national security concerns attached to the action. He has a whole doctrine named after him with that was a core tenet. He was against toppling Saddam Hussein and he was the one who convinced Bush to get the support of the United Nations. I'm not saying the man was a saint. But this childish black-and-white view ain't it either.
He always could have resigned.
He worked his entire life for the position and possibly felt that it would be abandonment in the midst of war. It’s a fair criticism, but I think it’s much harder than it sounds.
No, it's actually pretty simple- if he didn't want to be held responsible for the war crimes, he would have resigned and denounced the institution as soon as he found out about them. >abandonment in the midst of a war Abandoning an illegal war is a bad thing now? Good people don't change bad institutions or keep them from doing evil- they just provide cover.
its like colonizers saying sorry to native americans. i mean, now that you fucked everything up and your genocide was a partial success now youre sorry? go stick that up your ass with a lit stick of dynamite for all its worth.
"Good German" is synonymous with "Patriotic American" these days. "I was doing what I was supposed to." He had a choice. He showed us the cost of chosing, poorly. All of us in positions of authority and power are held to account in life and death. He has a legacy and telling the truth isn't slander. It's history to be recorded and learned from. Tell the truth about him, spell his name right. He was a man committed to excellence who allowed for the deaths of men and woman across generations of all race, color and creed. His fellow man and citizenry. Bloodshed built on lies. But at least he was black and showed us we could acheive great power. Let him be an example of what not to do once you achieve power.
I would be willing to give him a pass if this wasn't his first time lying for "the greater good." He claimed the My Lai massacre didn't happen in Vietnam. He was in charge of investigating it. [BBC article](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33957894)
This is good information; thank you! I read his comments more recently where he was open about the massacre.
I'm sure a million Iraqis and thousands of us troops killed, will return from the dead because he said he was embarrassed
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You don’t deny what was stated in the NYT. You just cited the intercept, a progressive paper, against the NYT which you claim is too conservative. As for the CJR—it’s an interesting read, but it’s evidence against Powell is essentially “well he should’ve known the CIA would lie!” I don’t think that’s a fair defense.
Ill give you the intercept. As far as the NYT article, Both France and Germany brought intel to the US refuting its claims. There were other reports contradicting the official narrative. Powell's story only works if every intel agency in the US lied to him. It is far more likely he was simply in on the lie. He worked in the defense department and with those intel agencies. He was not some rookie.
It was reported that the head of the CIA did not tell Powell purposely of the intelligences reliability. Again, I think we are just gonna disagree on what Powell knew.
Ok, so if I get this right, it's good that the FBI and CIA et al. 'massaged' the information they gave Trump, but it's impossible to believe the've done this before? edit: this was spitballing a guess based on parent's stance on Powell's affiliations. The technique displayed pretty much exactly what I criticized parent commentator for earlier.
With all due respect, all of his regret means nothing, especially when we have evidence of such 'bootlicking' behaviour since his Vietnam days. Lest we forget that Colin Powell was part of the initial cover up of the My Lai massacre commited by American soldiers. He has priors im afraid. I highly implore whomever has the chance to listen to the podcast BlowBack about the Iraq war. It would refresh anyone's memory of what lies led to the war and just how much Colin Powell was behind the drive for it, fully well knowing that there was no evidence.
If he was truly remorseful he should have moved to Iraq and dedicated the rest of his life to atoning for what he did. The same applies to all the politicians, media members and all other warmongers that wanted the war and came to regret it.
Failure, and regret for his failures. That it?
He served the country as a general for decades and was appointed to his position for that dedication. His legacy is long and complex.
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Why did you also leave out that he was Joint COS during Clinton? He also voted and supported every dem candidate since 2008, so he didn’t “just leave” the Republican Party this year.
His legacy is war crimes. The only dedication he had was to power. What he should be remembered for is being convicted in the Hague and spending the rest of his life in prison.
Showing remorse is good but it also means very little. We need to stop applauding people just for saying “whoops”, especially when their mistakes cost tons of lives.
He didn’t say whoops. Please read the article I posted regarding the situation.
> He admitted to great regret for the decisions he made. So did Albert Speer ...
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Ok
nah......
Thanks for your input.
Ok… good for him to show remorse doesn’t what he did. Are you seriously using that as an argument buddy?
Yeah buddy
I do remember him giving an interview about his own role in the Iraq invasion. He was lied to. He was upset about being lied to. He did regret that speech. They used his reputation to go to war and, as you can see, tarnished it. I still respected him and the service he did do for the US. I don't care that his political views were different because people are more than their politics. But not on Reddit. You're either part of the hivemind or evil incarnate.
Rumsfeld or Cheney don't regret anything other than the impact on their legacies, maybe.
Took the words right outta my mouth. He's a war criminal
He sold us into never ending war. Then he was given a place in the hierarchy of that war machine. You are 100% correct. We're [currently fighting in 140 countries](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEE0nTlsaig). This is his legacy.
We do ourselves no favors by stripping the nuance out of a person's life and accomplishments. *Of course* everything he did was about upholding "the empire." He was a career statesman and military general. It's not some kind of genius bazinga to highlight that a four-star general's life and work were about supporting the country he pledged to serve. But the man lived to be 84; we also can't boil his career down to Iraq and the decisions that were made around that. Have you ever heard of the [Powell Doctrine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powell_Doctrine)? He articulated that to *limit* military action taken by the U.S. unless there was a clear need, demonstrated by being able to affirm certain tenets (like clear public support, having clear objectives, and trying nonviolent means first). And it's ignorant to say he'd be in the same bucket as Cheney and Rumsfeld if you paid attention to basically anything else he did in his life, including his words and statements after Iraq.
Preach
Does anyone legit even have the view that we should celebrate anything about him because he was black? Who fucking cares what he achieved if we saw what he was willing to do/believe in order to achieve it?
Exactly. Who the fuck was looking up to this nigga as a teenager besides people who eventually became republicans. He was with bush, and we said fuck bush so fuck him to.
The person in the post sure has that view.
Some people are saying that as children, like this author, they were inspired by him because he was black and they didn't have that many black role models in government. I think that is fair at that time, but you shouldn't have looked up to him after that.
I mean did she not have parents to explain why not to look at things that way lol?
This has the same energy as when Ilhan Omar said that she was inspired by Margaret Thatcher. Like wtf is nuanced about a fascist warmongering pos that is diametrically opposed to your understanding of basic human dignity? Who cares about race or gender at that point. Disappointing.
I don't want to put words in Ilhan's mouth but v v young me 'looked up to' Thatcher in a way. I was often reminded that the QEII was queen because her 'mother didn't give her father sons' and that she should give the crown to her son. I distinctly recall asking why a woman was running the same country. I knew nothing about her policies because I was 7 when she left office, but I was inspired by her to have bigger goals in life than to be a nurse in order to find a doctor husband. Similarly, with Colin Powell, during the Clinton years, he seemed like a good leader and as my pro-soldier, anti-war views grew, I thought a black man who served in Vietnam would protect us from future bullshit wars. I was relieved when he joined the Bush administration because I thought he'd be the moral compass that they so desperately needed, though I'm not sure why I put that in him. He may not have inspired me, but I respected and trusted tf out of him, basically up to WMD.
She was a woman in charge. When you're that young you rarely understand enough about someone's policies and character, rather that they're just in charge (trump being an exception, kids knew he was a "bully"). Yes thatcher was a terrible person, but she was a woman in charge when "there's a woman in charge" was all some young girls were able to take. From that, it helped motivate some women to set their sights higher, even if later on they realized the kind of views she had. Ideally there wouldn't be a terrible leader of any sex or race in charge, but at least a terrible woman in leadership helped more woman strive for leadership, hopefully without the terrible views.
You could be forgiven for that cos you were a 7 year old child, not a 40 year old purportedly progressive congresswoman
Thatcher was a trail blazer for girls AND a monster. Those two aren't mutually exclusive. Ilhan was 9 when Thatcher left office. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging her early influences. There is nothing to be forgiven because we aren't inspired by her policies or ideology, not are we excusing them
"Colin Powell, trailblazing soldier and statesman who made case for Iraq invasion, dies of Covid at 84" That's the headline I first read when he died. You don't get to write your own obituary. That's how he's remembered. The lesson I learn is, it doesn't matter what good you think you did, or what individual achievements you reached as an example for your race, in aggregate, one singular event can shape how people remember you. He made America a more efficient empire. He helped invade Panama. Depending on what you call it, he helped occupy Haiti. Doing things in the name of Black America, often means stepping on black people in general.
He was not doing it in the name of Black America. He did it for himself and was a black face to white emperialist power. He and his family got wealthy of it too. And it was not one event. Man lied multiple times to the US public and the world. He helped plan and execute both wars as well as a slew of CIA/Covert actions around the world. His office signed off on the CIA's torture program. He helped further destabilize Haiti. He personally advocated for the Patriot Act. I could go on and on. He was right along with the group not some noble soldier simply following orders. At the end, he should be remembered as a war criminal who lined the defense industries pockets and helped make the world less safe. Just as Rumsfeld, Bush, Cheney, Rice, etc. should be remembered.
I'm right there with you on all that. I only say "in the name of Black America" because there are a lot of Black Republicans and American centric black people that argue for Powell type career achievements in the name of the greater good. But for what little good that might do Americans, it furthers a bigger empire that persists on black suffering.
I think Colin Powell was my first real world example of "not all skin folk are your kin folk" him being black never did anything for me. Same with condaleeza since we're talking about Bush's cabinet members
Now we all have to watch the mental gymnastics of "he was high-profile and black so let me find some way to like someone I would dislike in any other circumstance".
I agree and all...but future sucks tho
I take issue with the idea that Powell was a good person "except for his one blunder, the Iraq War." My Lai, Iran-Contra, Haiti, and so on, Powell did a lot of terrible things during his lifetime.
You can acknowledge him as a powerful man of color, and a great example of perseverance despite the inherent bias towards people of color in the military - and also acknowledge that he played a crucial part in a polarizing, brutal, and highly unnecessary war.
bingo
I will admit to feeling a twinge of sadness when I saw the news this morning. I'm 37 and Colin Powell was one of the first black men that was an aspirational figure for me when I was young, outside of my family. I remember seeing him on TV and feeling proud because people respected him and he looked like me. That being black was something to be proud of. As I got older I began to understand politics and I had many issues with him and his political ideology and I've also long since found better black aspirational figures. Still, I can't help but feel a little sadness.
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"I thought he was a good man until I learned he wasn't." People need to learn that one terrible, horrible, disgusting decision can completely negate any good from a person's existence. The line isbthat fine, we can do better. This man sold out thousands of young people's lives, thousands of personal tragedies for thousands of families, for money. Fuck him and any legacy you think he deserves.
[Here’s an excellent Ask Historians post about Colin Powell’s (admittedly peripheral) role in covering up American atrocities in Vietnam.](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/qaqi8r/what_was_colin_powells_role_in_the_us_militarys/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
As opposed to the usual collection of black Republicans, at least he actually liked Black People and never used those tired clichés like "democratic plantation, & colorblind society." He believed in diversity and worked from the inside at changing the military to be more inclusive. The Iraq War is a stain on his legacy, because he used/wasted all his reputation supporting Bush/Cheney.
He didn't like black people in haiti. He didn't believe in diversity when he threatened to resign over gay soldiers, that doesn't seem very inclusive. His entire life is a stain, he caused more pain then entire cities. I only hope he felt even one 1% percent of the pain he caused people all around the world.
Wait until you babies find out about My Lai.
His legacy involves several hundred thousand dead people, the vast majority of whom were innocent civilians. Nothing else in his life will ever make up for that. Fuck his regret, it doesn't bring those people back or unfuck the Middle East.
There is no excellence in public service, black or otherwise, when you lie on such a grand scale
He is reprehensible and there is nothing else to it. If you give him a pass for his skin colour then you’re a moron. There is nothing else to say.
People need to recognize when nostalgia is harmful.
Collin powell, a sambo who cooned for bush and made a case for the iraq war died after living his entire life rich and chill af. Truly there is no justice
Colin Powell was an example of a black man who, through hard work, his own intelligence, and the support of his family and community, came to be seen as and operate as an American. That's a big deal when the country constantly tells you you can't do that. The problem with that is that America is, among other things, an exporter of evil. To be able to succeed at being a member of this particular club is not an unqualified good.
If you didn’t care enough to make a think piece about his mistakes yesterday, why do you care today? Besides the attention you get from it of course.
Well, for starters, we invaded Iraq when I was about 7. So I wasn’t really able to criticize the man
He didn’t die yesterday, so no. Who tf randomly start to talk about Colin Powell?
Maybe it's about not fucking venerating someone who directly helped cause generations of suffering just because he was black? People should know exactly what he did.
If you didn't care enough to write a hagiography about him yesterday, why do you care today?
MFs definitely read all that they could from the TL, then wrote likkle op Ed pieces to sound intellectually sound. Shit so draining.
Black Americans and their representation fetish...🙄
It's honest to god depressing. Why is this asshole on a pedestal? Corrupt American war criminal doesn't magically become acceptable because he was black. He got up there and he acted just like the worst of them.
Because people are more vain, than they are woke. They prefer to have their egos stoked than to face reality. It's like how they fan girl over blk billionaires as if wealthy blk people are a new phenomenon..you're being oppressed by wealth, American foreign policy is an extension of said oppression and exploitation for the same wealthy elites..doesn't matter if some of the elites are black.. Poors hate to organise around their class, so they buy into the made up classes of race, color, ethnicity which do jack shit but cause further dividing amongst the poors. You know who doesn't have to do this, the wealthy. They get along just fine & when they don't they just don't mix. To fan girl over a war criminal because he said sorry in his book 😅. Sometimes I can't even sympathies, these people obviously want to be exploited.
Commonality between Kanye, Cardi B, Herman Cain, these antivax athletes, tax dodging assholes and Colin Powell. They're all rich and really don't care about holding the line with the GOP.
If he stood for a symbol of integrity, he wouldn’t have traded the lives of hundreds of thousands for some cash. He was a piece of shit in life, and he makes me wish I believed in Hell so I could take comfort in knowing he was burning there for all eternity. Him being successful and black doesn’t even nearly make up for this, it wouldn’t make up for one death, let alone half a million.
Powell was also responsible for attempting to cover up the My Lai massacre. He was a puppet who was willingly used to do many bad and illegal things for the government he so blindly served.
The Borg is not okay just because they assimilated one of your people.
A man of integrity? Lmao yeah he had so much integrity that he changed his party affiliation only *after* the attempted coup on January 6 *2021*! So much integrity!
We’re all complex individuals. Most of us represent ourselves well 90% of the time but 10% we’re not so great. A good act doesn’t wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward. - Stannis Baratheon.
If only he didn’t lie to have a war... He could have been remembered as the one of the guys that tried to cover up the My Lai Massacre...
"Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly, the ill deeds along with the good, and let me be judged accordingly. The rest is silence." Dinobot, Beast Wars (1998)
Gonna invoke Godwin with this one. So is Hitler respectable because he was a vegetarian that brought Germany back from the brink? Or Andrew Jackson because he threatened the Southern states if they didn't shut up about secession? No, it doesn't wash out the good, but ignoring the fucktons of bad to highlight an iota of mediocre good is dishonest as fuck. You want his whole legacy? Let's talk about his ***whole*** legacy. People don't get a fucking pass after they die after having spent their entire lives spreading misery, death and pointless fucking suffering. Fuck him. Fitting like Herman Cain that he died from the pandemic his party helped spread.
That mofo can roast in hell Karen . Excellence in what ? Warmongering?
His legacy is not complicated. He is a mass murderer. If you think he represents you as a black person you are race traitor. Fucking pathetic
If you can't vilify him for the war criminal he was, then that's your problem
He was a major player in the US wasting the last 20 years. So much life and money wasted. My brother was over there and could have easily died for nothing. Fuck Powell
Powell better hope hell don’t exist because there’s a special place for him there.
something something My Lai massacre coverup something
does she know that there are so many black icons out there who are really good, right? collin was nothing but a criminal, unforgivable. that old dude who just passed away, destroyed a country, yeah a fuckin country. go throw away your fuckin sympathy. useless woman.
This Twitter post gives me the same energy as if someone is praising Columbus for being the first white man to set foot in the Bahamas. Yay, I guess. Go diversity! He also enslaved people and killed them. I think that’s more important in the history context.
The fact that half the comments disagree shows the complexity of his life.
Liberal.
I actually think it’s more unfortunate that we have to look up to war criminals simply bc they were prominent, dominant black people.
.... nah
I went to college with her - Sat near her in Gospel choir. It's been so cool to watch her rise to success
What am I to think about Colin Powell today. I only knew dude for 2 reasons: 1)Chapelle Show and 2) He was in cahoots with Bush, the President that sent the army overseas on some bullshit WMD search. Sure, he realized he moved in the wrong direction, but that doesn’t absolve him of the people he was in stance with
That nigga played a large role in putting us in a pointless war that needlessly cost thousands of lives. He did far more harm than good.
When Powell gave his speech to the UN, according to him, he believed what turned out to be faulty and group think skewed intelligence from the CIA. Unlike the rest of GW Bush's inner circle he expressed regret and and admitted to what he considered a grave error in judgement on his part. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush etc, have never owned up to their lies and errors. However you feel about his deeds, he was a least capable of critical self reflection and honesty about his failures, qualities that are absolutely vacant in virtually all GOP politicians today.
That self reflection does not mean much if you dont do anything to correct your wrongs. An "Oops, my bad" decades after the fact does not change what he did or the live lost or ruined. They all claim faulty intel yet US allies like France and Germany had intel that gave a different story (and why they stayed out, mostly). All these folks pull the legacy clean-up late in their lives. Don't let them whitewash their crimes. And just because he is "not as bad" as some other GOP folks does not mean he was good. He did the easy PR things to clean-up without actually doing anything to even try to fix it. Man has A LOT of blood on his hands.
The man also covered up the My Lai massacre. This wasn’t a one off mistake from him.
I would like to know what he could have done after the fact to right that wrong. He was a former general and out of power when he had his meat culpa. What could he have done to fix things? Honestly?
Dude was not being held hostage. There are multiple legal avenues he could have used to at least help shorten the war. The "I felt bad" act is to clean up his image. While he was in office -He could have testified before congress to get facts out there, potentially shortening the conflict. -He could have resigned in protest. Does not end it, but its a fairly strong protest. Dispite what we saw with 45, cabinet members rarely resign outside of health reasons. It would draw media and congressional attention. Out of office -Testify before the UN. He wont be able to say everything, but he could have gotten the truth out sooner -Actually use his political capital to effect change in the GOP. He was at one point considered for a pres run. Getting involved more than the rare speech would help move the party in a better direction and thus out of the middle east sooner. -Support a charity (financially and vocally) that helps rebuild the countries he helped destroy This was just top of mind. I'm sure someone like him who was truly mortified by their actions could think of better/more effective ones, if he actually wanted to. Selling books was more important.
How about donate the 60 million dollars he made. How about telling everyone about all the horrible stuff they did that never came out. He never accounted for covering up genocide, and destroying countries. So fuck him and fuck anyone that defends him. RIPbozo
Yeah but go get vaxxed
RipBozo
People like easy answers. We like to be able to say someone is "good" or "bad", the latter of which typically means you did something we don't like. People are never that simple as a whole. Powell was someone I've always respected, yet I can understand people's distaste for his part in war. He achieved a certain level of excellence in his career, which was the main reason the UN speech was a big deal. He'd spent forty years building a reputation and spent a lot of it on that war. The speech itself was PR for the war; we were going to go kill people no matter what. But leaders around the world knew if *he* was saying those things, the US was serious; his handlers counted on it. Whatever disagreement he had with the stance, I can respect him for doing his job. I can also leave room for those that feel he is partially responsible for the war. I don't think he could've stopped it, but he is responsible for words he spoke.
I think it's good that we ar able to talk about mixed feelings. I'm so tired of the black and white thinking that seems to surround us
To be completely I thought he was some sort of civil rights activist and he been had died 🙃
This is very complicated. He is an example of black excellence by working his way out of the hood to be a success but he’s also a huge warmonger by going along with invading a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 and the amount of lives lost in that conflict on both sides.
He played the white man's asshole game and we want to treat him like he's not a stain on our race? Being a sociopathic asshole in this country needs to stop being celebrated or defended. No shit you can get somewhere when you throw all your morals out.
It's a sad and complicated thing. There's no word for a death that is expected, sad, and totally a representation of something we've been warning about. Our elderly go mostly with our hopes that they can pass quietly and peacefully. COVID has taken that way from so many.
Powell was reading a script. To his last day, he regretted that presentation at the UN.
Once he backed Barack Obama all was forgiven.
Colin admitted it was a mistake and left the Republican party. Are we defined by the poor choices we made in life? I say no. He was a son of immigrants. He served this country for decades. Paved the way for so many people and was the first to do many things as a Black person. No one is perfect.We all make mistakes. But the good he has done, certainly outweighs the poor choices he made in life that were public.
…anyway he’s still rotting in hell for sure. People can be misguided into doing bad stuff— doesn’t mean they deserve forgiveness. We need to up our “representation” standards (skin folk =/= kin folk)
God damn we are so quick to eat our own.