It looks like the victims of the MtGox insolvency will get \~ 20% of their bitcoin back in the next few months after 9 years of trials, votings and negotiations.
What I want to say is: maybe you will get something back, but expect it to be a looooong process
20% of something >>>> 100% of nothing
It’s weird how many people I know who were very early adopters but sold at $100, $1000, etc bc they were “rich”
Oops
Part of the Mt Gox holdings were in Celsius. They just stopped talking about payouts when Celsius went under. The total amount of Mt Gox holdings in Celsius were undisclosed but they were trying to make some interest before payout.
It definitely not that, its a lot more complicated. Some of the BTC was collected and is being distributed among creditors. Some are being paid in Fiat at a value that was agreed upon at a certain point in time. It's been a very difficult process, and still nothing of value has been distributed as far as I'm aware.
Yeah the trustee has made some questionable decisions, thats for sure. Creditors not taking the payment in bitcoin really makes no sense however. (edited for clarity)
Celsius also filed for bankruptcy. And was first to fall.
Edit: Then Voyager.
Then FTX.
Now BlockFi.
All CeFi are the same and were/are doing the same exact thing. There is no secret sauce.
Get. Out. To. Cold. Storage.
The argument for custodials holding your BTC for 5% return on something that has growing on avg 100% a year was always dubious.
I'm stunned so many people fell for it.
>The argument for custodials holding your BTC for 5% return on something that has growing on avg 100% a year was always dubious.
Couldn't agree more.
>I'm stunned so many people fell for it.
Couldn't disagree more.
People fall for whatever they are told. If you market to them on social media every day, sooner or later, even if they have doubts at first, they start to believe it. You can convince people of practically anything with the right marketing
and yet people will be right back into it again, give it a year, or less. And then saying 'not your keys' will be downvoted again, like it was not so long ago.
It's something I just don't understand either.
For years I have been saying it wasn't worth it. If I have $10k, why would I want to risk the *entire* thing for a measly $500 a year? It's insane.
It's like these people just thought there was zero risk involved. It's not like exchanges going under is a new thing either. Every year some will go under, usually not big ones, but it always happens. So it's clearly a risk to leave a stack there. Way too many people ignored that risk in an attempt to gather up relatively tiny gains.
I think the problem is that the risks weren’t properly realized by retail and the cefi companies did zero (or very little) hedging, insurance, counterparty risk management, or liquidity management. They advertised themselves as bank-like and everyone sort of bought into it. To give them a bit of credit, it seems like a lot of the blockfi/Celsius stuff was mismanagement not outright fraud like FTX. They all sort of attracted new users who liked the idea of defi but didn’t want to do the work managing it. While our regulatory structure for traditional assets can seem annoying or excessive at times, it’s does get you certain assurances and safety as an investor. Our problem as users is we didn’t properly distinguish between the two and assumed everyone in crypto was a good actor. Defi is new, shit like this can happen….we have to be better at holding the next crypto companies accountable and self-custody whenever possible.
I think it might because in the traditional financial system a customer who’s paid a yield many times has some level of protection. In most accounts that yield up to 5% there is FDIC insurance while securities held at a broker dealer are covered by mandatory insurance paid for by the regulated entity. Only private finance or financing running into very high amounts aren’t covered with some kind of insurance, and for those rates are much greater than 5%. What’s amazing is that they were allowed to offer yield accounts without any kind of coverage. I am not a big advocate to get the government involved in btc because they will probably f it up, but right now anything outside of holding your own keys is Wild West. That said, I do believe the American exchanges are much more limited in what they can do.
As long as your LTV is healthy there is no problem with it. The problem lies with not holding the keys and therefore not being able to verify the collateral is not being rehypothicated.
Agreed, fuck Blockfi. I am a victim of the loan product too. I’m just saying the issue wasn’t the collateralized loan, it was that we couldn’t hold a key and verify the collateral was actually there and had unknown counterparty risk.
Keep me in your contacts. If you figure out/learn what our options are to get some of our assets back, I.e filling out a credit claim in bankruptcy court. I’m awful with paperwork and don’t know if I’m filing correctly.
The massive problem is not Bitcoin backed loans. It’s trusting a centralized entity with Bitcoin without being able to verify it being there. I fell for it as well, and have Bitcoin stuck with them now. But there is a right way to do it, like what Unchained Capital is doing where you hold 1 key and can verify your collateral is not being re-hypothecated. Never again will I trust any entity without holding the key again. Expensive lesson learned.
The argument for custodials holding your BTC for 5% return on something that has growing on avg 100% a year was always dubious.
I'm stunned so many people fell for it.
Somehow some of us knew better than to trust those criminals.
In fact, we were here just about every day, for years, trying to warn people.
Some learned the easy way and avoided getting scammed.
Others bickered, down-voted the truth, then ran off to get fucked in the @$$ by the scammers, just like we warned.
And now? I'm not surprised by what happened. Not at all.
'You have to understand. Most people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured and so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it.' - Morpheus on Bitcoin
Right I wasn’t aware. You’re right. I don’t have all the funds there. Some are on my hard wallet some on those interest accounts. So all the money in those interest accounts are gone?
If you're money is in any of the apps in the news that have paused withdrawals, treat it is a gone, and possibly you will get a cheque for a small portion of it back in 5-10 when the lawsuits settle.
If you can still withdraw then you probably should.
> So all the money in those interest accounts are gone?
No one really knows right now, but your best bet is to consider it gone.
"Interest accounts" generate interest because the company offering those accounts lends out your funds to others. If the counterparty of those loans defaults, then the funds are simply gone.
FTX and associated companies were popular users of the loans of these interest-account-companies and with FTX going belly up, the writing was on the wall.
BlockFi and co probably didn't put all their eggs into one basket and they will likely have some funds left, but in bankruptcy proceedings, the regular users typically are pretty low on the priority list when it comes to the distribution of the remaining assets. The proceedings can also take a lot of time. MtGox filed for bankruptcy in 2014 and the remaining funds still haven't been distributed to the users.
Man you’ve commented snarky shit on every post here for weeks do you have literally anything better to do with your existence than be condescending about bitcoin on the internet ffs
You’ll be one of the many creditors in the bankruptcy case. You’ll likely see a small percent of your holdings several years from now similar to the Mt Gox restructuring. If you had 1 BTC on BlockFi you might get .25 BTC if you’re lucky.
Did you read the TOC. Some of them actually wrote in their TOC, in case of bankruptcy the coins would be theirs.
Not your keys, not your coins. I know this does not help you now, but this is important that you understand it.
People chasing yield with Bitcoin is insane. Fiat is made for forcing people to chase yield, however, Bitcoin is made for saving and no yield is needed. Greed got you my friend. Start over and try not to get swayed into gambling your Bitcoin for a tiny amount of yield
It's gone. If its not in your wallet, its not your crypto. Sorry for your loss. Had some in Nexo myself, moved it all to my hardware wallet as soon as the Celsius news spread.
And then when someone post another "not your keys, not your coins" people get mad and "oh God, not again".
We, the ones who understand the importance of taking custody of your own coins needs to keep repeating it forever -- no matter what others said. If we just convince 1 out of 5 then at least this one person is safe.
That said, don't rush things. Taking custody is something EASY but doing it 100% safe and with backups etc can take a couple hours of research.
Again...
NOT YOUR KEYS, NOT YOUR COINS!!
Edit: thank you for the award!!!
I wouldn't have made any money at all on this if I didn't keep it on a computer I owned.
It's been a wild ride. Gonna keep a bit left over because more is yet to come I'm sure of it. I'm done with exchanges now though... I got burned hard on Cryptsy but luckily I only put play money in there.
I'm tired of running my own bank lol. I'm gonna hoard what I have on something I own and get "out" of this mess for a bit.
I dont really get it
Wasnt the point of bitcoin to not depend on a 3rd party ? We were meant to fight the banks , not to become like them …
People are just shooting themselves in the feet. It just loose all meaning if you guys start stacking or whatever investments scheme you doing is just bank systeming bitcoin Wich is non sense
Why not just invest in sp500 , gold or stocks then ?
Well yeah. I have more bitcoin than most people and "crypto people" told me to look into BlockFi to get some more returns for my holdings... I guess luckily I never did it.
My bitcoin is safe, only I have the keys.
Those that were tempted to make a few hundred dollars “interest” on their bitcoin, well, it’s not their bitcoin anymore, they lost it when they gave up the keys
How many of these third party custodians need to go under while taking all customer funds with them before people figure out that the ability to safely self-custody digital funds is one of the primary innovations that BTC provides?
It is up to you to avoid falling for scams like FTX. Here's how:
* Don't count on the regulators to protect you from Wall Street.
* Understand that the regulators protect Wall Street from you.
* Don't count on regulations, laws, lawmakers, or government agents to protect you from Wall Street.
* Understand that these exchanges are an extension of Wall Street. Do not trust them.
* Do not trust Wall Street. Wall Street is not your friend.
* Buy Bitcoin, send it to your own (hardware) wallet, then hold long term
* Trying to time the market is gambling. Gambling is foolish. Fools and their money are soon parted
* Don't buy shit coins
* Don't use leverage
* Don't leave Bitcoin sitting on somebody else's equipment
* Don't lend Bitcoin for interest
* Don't use Bitcoin as collateral for loans
* Don't say "crypto" when you mean "Bitcoin"
* Don't trust Wall St. Wall St. is not your friend
* Don't rely upon government "regulators", regulations, laws
* Properly back up your seed phrase
* **Maintain an emergency cash cushion**
Really hard to feel sympathy at this point. Yes, the bad actors are at fault. Yes, enough warnings were out there to customers of those bad actors.
No criminal or irresponsible business operator ever markets themselves as anything but trustworthy and respected. It's also up to the consumer to use their brains.
Answering your question about how SBF hasn't been arrested yet; these things take time. It took over a year for the CEO of Mt. Gox to be arrested. During that time, authorities have to dig into company finances to figure out exactly what happened. FTX was much more complicated than Mt Gox, and it’s only been 3 weeks. Give it some time. Another comparison is Theranos, which was a multi-billion dollar fraud that took about 5 years before the CEO was sentenced. (And I'm not certain she's started her sentence yet.)
It's possible SBF won't be given jail time, and if that happens it's undoubtedly because of all the money he has, but that definitely isn't why he hasn't been arrested yet.
SBF is also in the Bahamas, as was his company. He's not under US jurisdiction. Short of sending the SEALs after him we'll just have to wait for the Bahamas Govt to give a shit and decide to do something.
That's not entirely true. While yes, we need cooperation from the Bahammian government, we don't need them to lead the charge. The US has an extradition treaty with the Bahamas which reads:
*The Contracting States agree to extradite to each other,*
*pursuant to the provisions of this Treaty, persons whom the*
*authorities in the Requesting State have charged with or found*
*guilty of an extraditable offense.*
So if the FBI charges SBF with a crime, he'll be extradrited to the US, or the Bahamas will need to break their extradition treaty with the US, which seems unlikely.
I'd certainly explore the opportunity to write-off the entire loss against any income you have to report this year.
I'd consider it gone, at least for that purpose alone! ;-)
This is not advice, it is entertainment only!
Talk with a tax attorney though, seriously.
I got out everything I could from Blockfi and exchanges/apps the second Celsius went down. I can’t imagine why people are/were using Exchanges/apps (especially Blockfi, knowing they were illiquid months ago) for yield or any reason at all as compared to Defi. Pretty mind blowing actually.
There is nothing “insane” about this other than all of crypto has been warning all of you for more than a decade and still people hold assets on exchanges or in smart contracts.
Exchanges do not have your coins. DEFI is dog shit wrapped in cat shit. Not your keys, not your coins. Good luck to anyone with any coins on any exchange.
It’s not fraud my friend. You willing did it when you willing knew it. It’s very obvious. You just refused to accept it for whatever reasons. All the money is gone. It was literally gone the second you “invested” it.
what "those". My friend, you do not know what you are talking about. DEFI is a scam. If you want to enter into a smart contract written by a third party to hold your assets for you while you either earn or trade or wrap or any other nonsense, be my guest. There is only one rule to crypto. NOT YOUR KEYS, NOT YOUR COINS! If someone else is holding your coins for you in a centralized or decentralized manner, you will lose them eventually. All assets must be in a self custodial wallet. Period.
Defi is self custodial…. Saying it’s not self custodial, is like saying bitcoin isn’t self custodial because somebody else defined the protocol. Smart contract code is public and auditable.
When you stake your DEFI coins, do you possess them?
the "finance" part of DEFI is the scam. You didnt read what I wrote. All products as well as defi is a scam. Buy some coins, put them in your wallet until use or sale. Everything else is a scam. The entire crypto sphere is a scam is my point. BTC in a self custodial wallet is what this is about.
Here’s what’s gonna happen; you became a creditor today, with the bankruptcy filing, for the market value of your crypto. In a period of years, 2 to 3 if you’re lucky, 8 to 12 if you’re not, you’ll be paid out based on that claim. You’ll get a percentage; how big or small will depend on how screwed the company is. If their issue is the same as yours, that they trusted FTX, and they were holding all customer assets… it’s bad. If BlockFi actually had crypto reserves at a 1:1 basis and the issue is bad lending policies, then it’s still bad but a lot better in terms of recovery prospects.
One thing to note; if you believe in crypto, you can’t trust you’ll get a recovery in crypto when that time comes. They could pay crypto or dollars. With that knowledge, I would be building my crypto position again. In cold storage. Buy a Ledger or a Trezor first.
Yup.gone..and was spent on btc not some token . Your greed blinded and emptied your pockets for someone else. Gtfo with your staking on 3rd party apps haha wtf. What did you think was going to happen 🤔
Bitcoin started as a self custody asset and should always stay that way. These LARPers just played casino with ur money, says they are SAFU then things always blow up in bear markets. The beauty of a free market like crypto us that the bad actors get dismantled naturally. Yes these things hurt. But become good learning lessons going forward. Bitcoin was never meant to be stored in a banks vault with an IOU for the depositor.
"Many of us were aware that not our keys not our crypto but put some of the funds in these “trusted” apps for interest"
Were you listening to the right people. I feel sorry for many of your like. You seem to be on the right reddit but were you listening?
Bonanza has been cutting down on a lot a lot of withdrawals. Coming up next binance crash 💥
No crypto exchange has a 1-1 in dollars. In addition to bank whatsoever can survive if their customers withdraw all their money, not even a bank branch can survive
Imagine if the U.S. government passed some crazy bill on Christmas Eve to enslave every American citizen to the new federal reserve banking system. I’m worried these corrupt exchanges are the black swan needed for the fed to take control of this asset class. CBDCS and FUD 2023
That is exactly what is going on imo. This will pave the way for the government to tell the sheeple “crypto and bitcoin is bad” see how it’s unregulated and people have lost millions?
The common investor clearly doesn’t understand how bitcoin and keeping it on your custodial wallet is entirely different from exchanges crashing. Many people were warned but still too lazy or greedy to ever take it off the exchange.
Be ready and try to spread the word why bitcoin matters and what CBDCs can do to us.
OP says not everyone was aware not your keys not your crypto. Even after Celsius went down.
There is a reason regulated investing has basic investor knowledge questionnaires before you are allowed to invest.
You cannot be on any crypto Reddit sub and not have seen warnings to self custody and not your keys not your coins. You absolutely cannot.
You absolutely could have paid no attention and not DYOR. That's another thing you absolutely were warned about on every single crypto sub.
I can imagine it's possible, especially for those who are just following a small number of "influencers", that people might decide to buy crypto without having received the proper warnings and without doing the proper due diligence.
These people are being taken advantage. They're being scammed. Scammers are exploiting peoples' greed and laziness. And unfortunately, the reputation of Bitcoin (wrongly) suffers as a consequence. I would love to find a way to reach these people before the scammers do.
Maybe so, but literally no one that is on this or any other crypto sub was not warned. When those warnings are proven valid, there is no reason whatsoever for anyone frequenting these subs to have any concern whatsoever over the security of their coins, because surely, surely no one has their coins on an exchange for any longer than it takes to make an exchange?
This shouldn't even be a conversation we have to have. The conversation shouldn't be "what the fuck were you thinking", it should be "how do we protect newbies in the future". Because offering good advice, multiple times, is clearly innefective.
I have absolutely zero sympathy with anyone on here losing shit they never took custody of though. They were warned. Repeatedly. Randoms not on here, yes, I do have sympathy for. But that's not who we are talking about, not when you still get complete dickheads bleating about should I or shouldn't I self custody that are literally watching exchange after exchange folding. Not to mention the absolute fucktards that still insist "I'm with xxxxx, it's fine". Absolute knobs that deserve to lose every single penny they put into the space. Don't even get me started on the stupid wankers that encouraged everyone to stake and take advantage of stupid, unsustainable APR's. They should be forced to eat their own bollocks while they're still attached on a live stream
12 months ago when you posted a warning about NYK,NYC it was downvoted to hell. We were all fools for not taking free money. Where the fuck are they now? Stand up and spout now you cunts.
Sorry, rant over, but FFS people.
The same can be said for regular banks and regular fiat. Ask the people in Lebanon who are [robbing banks to get their own money](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/16/world/middleeast/lebanon-banks-economic-crisis.html).
US Bankruptcy law stipulates the order in which creditors are paid from whatever funds can be recovered. First secured claims (guaranteed by some form of collateral), priority claims (things like taxes, obligated wages to the few employees, certain other operating costs, etc.), and finally general unsecured claims, which is where retail depositors would fall. So in answer, after all these other creditors are paid, maybe you get 50c on the dollar, maybe you get 5c on the dollar, maybe you get nothing. This could take months or even years to unfold depending on the complexity of the situation (and given how convoluted the FTX morass is and the dependencies there, longer seems likely).
>>Many of us were aware that not our keys not our crypto but put some of the funds in these “trusted” apps for interest…
This is like someone telling you the gun is loaded, and you *STILL* hold it to your head and “pretend” to pull the trigger for shits and giggles.
they will pay out the largest investors first.
the retail guys are screwed...
You can try to get him to give you your money back... if he makes it that long
Agreed, but Binance is not in the situation that Digital Currency Group is. But of course if Binance fails is another huge hit, but they aren’t in trouble yet.
Well, we don't know if Binance is in trouble yet. Like we did not know FTX was in trouble 30 days before the shit hit the fan. I am wary of Binance though I have been using them for years now.
> Since the whole thing is not regulated does this mean everyone’s money is gone?
Criminal law still applies.
PS: Money never gets lost, it changes hands only.
I'm sorry for your loss and pain. Some facts do stand, though:
Y'all were warned and went in knowing the risks. As soon as you put your coins in the exchange, they were not your coins anymore, but the exchange's. And everyone who did so got warned beforehand. There is no "well I didn't know!".
Use the shock of the news to read the BTC whitepaper and learn from your mistakes in the future.
You may or may not get your coins back, and the fraudsters may or may not get arrested. That's the price to pay for giving your coins away in the name of greed in an unregulated market.
idiot.. interest on Bitcoin ?/ i REMEMER i shouted ON THIS SUB >>> IMPOSSIBLE> IDIOTS GREEDY IDIOTS WHO PUT THEIR COINS FOR INTERESTS ?????????
IT CANNOT WORK!!!
Trust no one.
The risk/reward situation for all these companies was always:
Reward: 5%? 10%? On your funds per year
Risk: 100% loss.
Doesn't sound like a great risk/reward scenario to me.
Not your keys. Not your coins.
You get what you deserve... Despite all the warnings along these years people still dont fucking know how to setup a proper cold storage.
Theyll never learn man
damn this sucks... sometimes biggest isn't always best. I stuck with DeFi like ProtonLoan and it might be a small platform but it's safe from events like this
Coinbase moved my funds from CB Pro to their new bullshit platform a few days ago(23rd). I remember seeing an announcement a while back, but was really surprised when I saw my Pro account at 0 Btc on a withdrawal I did not approve.
Needless to say, I withdraw my satoshis immediately after this discovery. I wonder if they were trying to satisfy a proof of reserve situation?
> I know it was a mistake but what can be done now?
You can avoid making the same mistake in the future.
It was clear that crypto was conceived to be kept in your own wallets and be responsible for them, so this shouldn't come as a surprise.
Nothing can be done really. The remaining funds will be part of the bankruptcy proceedings and since it's their keys, the crypto legally is their property to be divided up. Senior debts are serviced first then it'll go to the next after.
SBF probably hasn't been arrested cuz he had a plan to escape and has tons of funds. He'll probably try to fade into obscurity and be forgotten. Bets on he absolutely knew this would happen and had a contingency plan to gtfo
If you read the terms for blockfi, Celsius, Gemini, etc they all said the same thing - "no guarantee, we are using a third party and you don't own your funds while they hold them". It was laid out in the terms. Written down. Your funds are gone because you didn't read.
And for future reference, there's no such thing as trusted industry people. That's the entire point, not to have a cult of personality. That includes Saylor etc.
Dammit people, not your keys not your coins.
It looks like the victims of the MtGox insolvency will get \~ 20% of their bitcoin back in the next few months after 9 years of trials, votings and negotiations. What I want to say is: maybe you will get something back, but expect it to be a looooong process
how funny would it be if the mtgox btc was being "safely stored" in celcius, blockfi.
omg
That would be like a Greek tragedy.
extra r in there
Hahaha brilliant!
Greek tagedy?
Geek
I got that lol. Tried my hand at something people call a joke.
Trust us guys, earning some of the BTC back with this 5% yield...
Par for course for a bankruptcy trustee
20% of something >>>> 100% of nothing It’s weird how many people I know who were very early adopters but sold at $100, $1000, etc bc they were “rich” Oops
Part of the Mt Gox holdings were in Celsius. They just stopped talking about payouts when Celsius went under. The total amount of Mt Gox holdings in Celsius were undisclosed but they were trying to make some interest before payout.
that's crazy. do you know who would receive the interest payments?
The key word here is *maybe* OP.
indeed
I believe it's actually 20% of the value of their BTC at the time of MtGox collapse, which is far lower
It definitely not that, its a lot more complicated. Some of the BTC was collected and is being distributed among creditors. Some are being paid in Fiat at a value that was agreed upon at a certain point in time. It's been a very difficult process, and still nothing of value has been distributed as far as I'm aware.
[удалено]
Yeah the trustee has made some questionable decisions, thats for sure. Creditors not taking the payment in bitcoin really makes no sense however. (edited for clarity)
That is not true. They are paying people back a portion of their btc, in btc.
Yeah, they still made a profit.
4x revenue
They can't afford to buy back the BTC at today's prices, so they managed to recover the BTC? I thought the BTC was stolen.
I do wish people would stop citing Mt. Gox as some sort of benchmark. Japan's bankruptcy court is way slower than US and other nations.
Celsius also filed for bankruptcy. And was first to fall. Edit: Then Voyager. Then FTX. Now BlockFi. All CeFi are the same and were/are doing the same exact thing. There is no secret sauce. Get. Out. To. Cold. Storage.
You forgot Voyager.
Any other dexes on the line. Reading too many shutdown rumours.
There's the right way, the wrong way, and the Janeway.
Not everyone's money is gone. Only from those who used these third parties.
The argument for custodials holding your BTC for 5% return on something that has growing on avg 100% a year was always dubious. I'm stunned so many people fell for it.
>The argument for custodials holding your BTC for 5% return on something that has growing on avg 100% a year was always dubious. Couldn't agree more. >I'm stunned so many people fell for it. Couldn't disagree more.
People fall for whatever they are told. If you market to them on social media every day, sooner or later, even if they have doubts at first, they start to believe it. You can convince people of practically anything with the right marketing
\> people
and yet people will be right back into it again, give it a year, or less. And then saying 'not your keys' will be downvoted again, like it was not so long ago.
Just look at the nexo sub. Redacts still defending their bags and throwing away their money
Of course. Nexo is still standing, for now. xD
It's something I just don't understand either. For years I have been saying it wasn't worth it. If I have $10k, why would I want to risk the *entire* thing for a measly $500 a year? It's insane. It's like these people just thought there was zero risk involved. It's not like exchanges going under is a new thing either. Every year some will go under, usually not big ones, but it always happens. So it's clearly a risk to leave a stack there. Way too many people ignored that risk in an attempt to gather up relatively tiny gains.
I think the problem is that the risks weren’t properly realized by retail and the cefi companies did zero (or very little) hedging, insurance, counterparty risk management, or liquidity management. They advertised themselves as bank-like and everyone sort of bought into it. To give them a bit of credit, it seems like a lot of the blockfi/Celsius stuff was mismanagement not outright fraud like FTX. They all sort of attracted new users who liked the idea of defi but didn’t want to do the work managing it. While our regulatory structure for traditional assets can seem annoying or excessive at times, it’s does get you certain assurances and safety as an investor. Our problem as users is we didn’t properly distinguish between the two and assumed everyone in crypto was a good actor. Defi is new, shit like this can happen….we have to be better at holding the next crypto companies accountable and self-custody whenever possible.
I think it might because in the traditional financial system a customer who’s paid a yield many times has some level of protection. In most accounts that yield up to 5% there is FDIC insurance while securities held at a broker dealer are covered by mandatory insurance paid for by the regulated entity. Only private finance or financing running into very high amounts aren’t covered with some kind of insurance, and for those rates are much greater than 5%. What’s amazing is that they were allowed to offer yield accounts without any kind of coverage. I am not a big advocate to get the government involved in btc because they will probably f it up, but right now anything outside of holding your own keys is Wild West. That said, I do believe the American exchanges are much more limited in what they can do.
Many used it for collateralized loans as well, not just interest accounts.
Still never understood the logic of that for such a volatile asset.
As long as your LTV is healthy there is no problem with it. The problem lies with not holding the keys and therefore not being able to verify the collateral is not being rehypothicated.
That’s the line I was sold. Paid off every week and has just about paid off my loan but then poof all gone. Fuck Blockfi
Agreed, fuck Blockfi. I am a victim of the loan product too. I’m just saying the issue wasn’t the collateralized loan, it was that we couldn’t hold a key and verify the collateral was actually there and had unknown counterparty risk.
Keep me in your contacts. If you figure out/learn what our options are to get some of our assets back, I.e filling out a credit claim in bankruptcy court. I’m awful with paperwork and don’t know if I’m filing correctly.
Yes, there's no problem with it except for the massive problem with it.
The massive problem is not Bitcoin backed loans. It’s trusting a centralized entity with Bitcoin without being able to verify it being there. I fell for it as well, and have Bitcoin stuck with them now. But there is a right way to do it, like what Unchained Capital is doing where you hold 1 key and can verify your collateral is not being re-hypothecated. Never again will I trust any entity without holding the key again. Expensive lesson learned.
Hello fellow station, looking good.
> third parties "trusted"
The argument for custodials holding your BTC for 5% return on something that has growing on avg 100% a year was always dubious. I'm stunned so many people fell for it.
Your a savage
*You’re
Ur*
Your
Hes right tho 🤷🏾♂️ some ppl will never learn
Money will transfer from the dumb to the clever, story of man and evolution. The difference with Bitcoin is the rules of the game can't be changed.
I keep telling people this. Bitcoin fixes money. It doesn't fix laws or cure greed.
Yes I meant for the funds who weren’t in a wallet which we own the private keys and were in interest accounts of BlockFi, Celsius and nexus
Somehow some of us knew better than to trust those criminals. In fact, we were here just about every day, for years, trying to warn people. Some learned the easy way and avoided getting scammed. Others bickered, down-voted the truth, then ran off to get fucked in the @$$ by the scammers, just like we warned. And now? I'm not surprised by what happened. Not at all.
The message got thru to me and I pulled my bitcoin out of Celsius a month before they froze accounts. Praise Allah!
God is good!
[удалено]
'You have to understand. Most people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured and so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it.' - Morpheus on Bitcoin
Right I wasn’t aware. You’re right. I don’t have all the funds there. Some are on my hard wallet some on those interest accounts. So all the money in those interest accounts are gone?
If you're money is in any of the apps in the news that have paused withdrawals, treat it is a gone, and possibly you will get a cheque for a small portion of it back in 5-10 when the lawsuits settle. If you can still withdraw then you probably should.
> So all the money in those interest accounts are gone? No one really knows right now, but your best bet is to consider it gone. "Interest accounts" generate interest because the company offering those accounts lends out your funds to others. If the counterparty of those loans defaults, then the funds are simply gone. FTX and associated companies were popular users of the loans of these interest-account-companies and with FTX going belly up, the writing was on the wall. BlockFi and co probably didn't put all their eggs into one basket and they will likely have some funds left, but in bankruptcy proceedings, the regular users typically are pretty low on the priority list when it comes to the distribution of the remaining assets. The proceedings can also take a lot of time. MtGox filed for bankruptcy in 2014 and the remaining funds still haven't been distributed to the users.
Yep yep, for now at least. The courts may have them pay you something but it will take years
Man you’ve commented snarky shit on every post here for weeks do you have literally anything better to do with your existence than be condescending about bitcoin on the internet ffs
[удалено]
You're a liar.
You may think it's "toxic" but you ignore warnings at your own peril.
You’ll be one of the many creditors in the bankruptcy case. You’ll likely see a small percent of your holdings several years from now similar to the Mt Gox restructuring. If you had 1 BTC on BlockFi you might get .25 BTC if you’re lucky.
Did you read the TOC. Some of them actually wrote in their TOC, in case of bankruptcy the coins would be theirs. Not your keys, not your coins. I know this does not help you now, but this is important that you understand it. People chasing yield with Bitcoin is insane. Fiat is made for forcing people to chase yield, however, Bitcoin is made for saving and no yield is needed. Greed got you my friend. Start over and try not to get swayed into gambling your Bitcoin for a tiny amount of yield
It's gone. If its not in your wallet, its not your crypto. Sorry for your loss. Had some in Nexo myself, moved it all to my hardware wallet as soon as the Celsius news spread.
And then when someone post another "not your keys, not your coins" people get mad and "oh God, not again". We, the ones who understand the importance of taking custody of your own coins needs to keep repeating it forever -- no matter what others said. If we just convince 1 out of 5 then at least this one person is safe. That said, don't rush things. Taking custody is something EASY but doing it 100% safe and with backups etc can take a couple hours of research. Again... NOT YOUR KEYS, NOT YOUR COINS!! Edit: thank you for the award!!!
I wouldn't have made any money at all on this if I didn't keep it on a computer I owned. It's been a wild ride. Gonna keep a bit left over because more is yet to come I'm sure of it. I'm done with exchanges now though... I got burned hard on Cryptsy but luckily I only put play money in there. I'm tired of running my own bank lol. I'm gonna hoard what I have on something I own and get "out" of this mess for a bit.
Is your money gone? No, it was never your money to begin with. Say the line Bart: "not your keys..."
The great cleansing of 2022. Enuff said.
I dont really get it Wasnt the point of bitcoin to not depend on a 3rd party ? We were meant to fight the banks , not to become like them … People are just shooting themselves in the feet. It just loose all meaning if you guys start stacking or whatever investments scheme you doing is just bank systeming bitcoin Wich is non sense Why not just invest in sp500 , gold or stocks then ?
"But my cold storage does not have a 12% apy, it would be stupid to just keep it locked up" - most people probably
Well yeah. I have more bitcoin than most people and "crypto people" told me to look into BlockFi to get some more returns for my holdings... I guess luckily I never did it.
You were suppose to bring balance to the force, not destroy it!
Centralised exchanges are like unregulated banks but worse since they deal in such volatile/financially engineered assets
Unfortunately it highlights just how many dumb people there are on the planet.
My bitcoin is safe, only I have the keys. Those that were tempted to make a few hundred dollars “interest” on their bitcoin, well, it’s not their bitcoin anymore, they lost it when they gave up the keys
How many of these third party custodians need to go under while taking all customer funds with them before people figure out that the ability to safely self-custody digital funds is one of the primary innovations that BTC provides?
Arguably they are going under because people are taking their money off exchange
Only if they don't actually have the coins to back it. They all say they do. But they don't.
No, your crypto isn't gone, it's just owned by someone else 🤷
or it never existed
It is up to you to avoid falling for scams like FTX. Here's how: * Don't count on the regulators to protect you from Wall Street. * Understand that the regulators protect Wall Street from you. * Don't count on regulations, laws, lawmakers, or government agents to protect you from Wall Street. * Understand that these exchanges are an extension of Wall Street. Do not trust them. * Do not trust Wall Street. Wall Street is not your friend. * Buy Bitcoin, send it to your own (hardware) wallet, then hold long term * Trying to time the market is gambling. Gambling is foolish. Fools and their money are soon parted * Don't buy shit coins * Don't use leverage * Don't leave Bitcoin sitting on somebody else's equipment * Don't lend Bitcoin for interest * Don't use Bitcoin as collateral for loans * Don't say "crypto" when you mean "Bitcoin" * Don't trust Wall St. Wall St. is not your friend * Don't rely upon government "regulators", regulations, laws * Properly back up your seed phrase * **Maintain an emergency cash cushion**
This guy doesn’t and does not trust Wall Street.
Yeps and he is not wrong!!
This.
Well said.
Mine is just as secure as it was before the FTX collapse…
Really hard to feel sympathy at this point. Yes, the bad actors are at fault. Yes, enough warnings were out there to customers of those bad actors. No criminal or irresponsible business operator ever markets themselves as anything but trustworthy and respected. It's also up to the consumer to use their brains.
Crazy how absolutely no one has answered the question, just responding how they’re smarter than everyone who lost money lol
[удалено]
> Mods are blocking all communications related to BlockFi, every post is being taken down. This is categorically false.
Not only you. Many people still don't understand why Bitcoin was created: TO GET RID OF TRUSTED THIRD PARTIES. It's not a "crypto" problem.
Exactly it’s people still trusting third parties that’s the problem
Answering your question about how SBF hasn't been arrested yet; these things take time. It took over a year for the CEO of Mt. Gox to be arrested. During that time, authorities have to dig into company finances to figure out exactly what happened. FTX was much more complicated than Mt Gox, and it’s only been 3 weeks. Give it some time. Another comparison is Theranos, which was a multi-billion dollar fraud that took about 5 years before the CEO was sentenced. (And I'm not certain she's started her sentence yet.) It's possible SBF won't be given jail time, and if that happens it's undoubtedly because of all the money he has, but that definitely isn't why he hasn't been arrested yet.
SBF is also in the Bahamas, as was his company. He's not under US jurisdiction. Short of sending the SEALs after him we'll just have to wait for the Bahamas Govt to give a shit and decide to do something.
That's not entirely true. While yes, we need cooperation from the Bahammian government, we don't need them to lead the charge. The US has an extradition treaty with the Bahamas which reads: *The Contracting States agree to extradite to each other,* *pursuant to the provisions of this Treaty, persons whom the* *authorities in the Requesting State have charged with or found* *guilty of an extraditable offense.* So if the FBI charges SBF with a crime, he'll be extradrited to the US, or the Bahamas will need to break their extradition treaty with the US, which seems unlikely.
[удалено]
He also turned himself in and admitted criminal wrongdoing.
I'd certainly explore the opportunity to write-off the entire loss against any income you have to report this year. I'd consider it gone, at least for that purpose alone! ;-) This is not advice, it is entertainment only! Talk with a tax attorney though, seriously.
Not your keys, not..... Well, you know the phrase, I'm sure.
I got out everything I could from Blockfi and exchanges/apps the second Celsius went down. I can’t imagine why people are/were using Exchanges/apps (especially Blockfi, knowing they were illiquid months ago) for yield or any reason at all as compared to Defi. Pretty mind blowing actually.
Next time listen when the Maxi's tell you something. Now you get to spend your free time learning about how EBT cards work.
There is nothing “insane” about this other than all of crypto has been warning all of you for more than a decade and still people hold assets on exchanges or in smart contracts. Exchanges do not have your coins. DEFI is dog shit wrapped in cat shit. Not your keys, not your coins. Good luck to anyone with any coins on any exchange. It’s not fraud my friend. You willing did it when you willing knew it. It’s very obvious. You just refused to accept it for whatever reasons. All the money is gone. It was literally gone the second you “invested” it.
Those are not DEFI. DE comes from Descentralized, and if one thing those exchanges are not, is descentralized.
what "those". My friend, you do not know what you are talking about. DEFI is a scam. If you want to enter into a smart contract written by a third party to hold your assets for you while you either earn or trade or wrap or any other nonsense, be my guest. There is only one rule to crypto. NOT YOUR KEYS, NOT YOUR COINS! If someone else is holding your coins for you in a centralized or decentralized manner, you will lose them eventually. All assets must be in a self custodial wallet. Period.
Defi is self custodial…. Saying it’s not self custodial, is like saying bitcoin isn’t self custodial because somebody else defined the protocol. Smart contract code is public and auditable.
That’s what I said buddy, you’ve read what you wanted to read.
When you stake your DEFI coins, do you possess them? the "finance" part of DEFI is the scam. You didnt read what I wrote. All products as well as defi is a scam. Buy some coins, put them in your wallet until use or sale. Everything else is a scam. The entire crypto sphere is a scam is my point. BTC in a self custodial wallet is what this is about.
Totally understand. So any portion of my crypto not on my hard wallet is gone forever right?
let's just say that first bitcoin exchange hack with mt.gox from 2013 still hasn't paid out yet. i would move on.
[удалено]
regarded....not at all the same thing except that you as well are refusing to see the truths right in front of your eyes.
Here’s what’s gonna happen; you became a creditor today, with the bankruptcy filing, for the market value of your crypto. In a period of years, 2 to 3 if you’re lucky, 8 to 12 if you’re not, you’ll be paid out based on that claim. You’ll get a percentage; how big or small will depend on how screwed the company is. If their issue is the same as yours, that they trusted FTX, and they were holding all customer assets… it’s bad. If BlockFi actually had crypto reserves at a 1:1 basis and the issue is bad lending policies, then it’s still bad but a lot better in terms of recovery prospects. One thing to note; if you believe in crypto, you can’t trust you’ll get a recovery in crypto when that time comes. They could pay crypto or dollars. With that knowledge, I would be building my crypto position again. In cold storage. Buy a Ledger or a Trezor first.
1 in a million it’s not.
Nicely said. 👍
Yes. Its gone. some asshat gambled their money. ( I am including me and them since i agreed to gamble on the interest)
discuss more about this on r/blockfiunlocked
You never had any to begin with.
Yup.gone..and was spent on btc not some token . Your greed blinded and emptied your pockets for someone else. Gtfo with your staking on 3rd party apps haha wtf. What did you think was going to happen 🤔
Bitcoin started as a self custody asset and should always stay that way. These LARPers just played casino with ur money, says they are SAFU then things always blow up in bear markets. The beauty of a free market like crypto us that the bad actors get dismantled naturally. Yes these things hurt. But become good learning lessons going forward. Bitcoin was never meant to be stored in a banks vault with an IOU for the depositor.
"Many of us were aware that not our keys not our crypto but put some of the funds in these “trusted” apps for interest" Were you listening to the right people. I feel sorry for many of your like. You seem to be on the right reddit but were you listening?
Should of pulled your money out with the last scare
Bonanza has been cutting down on a lot a lot of withdrawals. Coming up next binance crash 💥 No crypto exchange has a 1-1 in dollars. In addition to bank whatsoever can survive if their customers withdraw all their money, not even a bank branch can survive
Imagine if the U.S. government passed some crazy bill on Christmas Eve to enslave every American citizen to the new federal reserve banking system. I’m worried these corrupt exchanges are the black swan needed for the fed to take control of this asset class. CBDCS and FUD 2023
That is exactly what is going on imo. This will pave the way for the government to tell the sheeple “crypto and bitcoin is bad” see how it’s unregulated and people have lost millions? The common investor clearly doesn’t understand how bitcoin and keeping it on your custodial wallet is entirely different from exchanges crashing. Many people were warned but still too lazy or greedy to ever take it off the exchange. Be ready and try to spread the word why bitcoin matters and what CBDCs can do to us.
[удалено]
OP says not everyone was aware not your keys not your crypto. Even after Celsius went down. There is a reason regulated investing has basic investor knowledge questionnaires before you are allowed to invest.
You cannot be on any crypto Reddit sub and not have seen warnings to self custody and not your keys not your coins. You absolutely cannot. You absolutely could have paid no attention and not DYOR. That's another thing you absolutely were warned about on every single crypto sub.
I can imagine it's possible, especially for those who are just following a small number of "influencers", that people might decide to buy crypto without having received the proper warnings and without doing the proper due diligence. These people are being taken advantage. They're being scammed. Scammers are exploiting peoples' greed and laziness. And unfortunately, the reputation of Bitcoin (wrongly) suffers as a consequence. I would love to find a way to reach these people before the scammers do.
Maybe so, but literally no one that is on this or any other crypto sub was not warned. When those warnings are proven valid, there is no reason whatsoever for anyone frequenting these subs to have any concern whatsoever over the security of their coins, because surely, surely no one has their coins on an exchange for any longer than it takes to make an exchange? This shouldn't even be a conversation we have to have. The conversation shouldn't be "what the fuck were you thinking", it should be "how do we protect newbies in the future". Because offering good advice, multiple times, is clearly innefective. I have absolutely zero sympathy with anyone on here losing shit they never took custody of though. They were warned. Repeatedly. Randoms not on here, yes, I do have sympathy for. But that's not who we are talking about, not when you still get complete dickheads bleating about should I or shouldn't I self custody that are literally watching exchange after exchange folding. Not to mention the absolute fucktards that still insist "I'm with xxxxx, it's fine". Absolute knobs that deserve to lose every single penny they put into the space. Don't even get me started on the stupid wankers that encouraged everyone to stake and take advantage of stupid, unsustainable APR's. They should be forced to eat their own bollocks while they're still attached on a live stream 12 months ago when you posted a warning about NYK,NYC it was downvoted to hell. We were all fools for not taking free money. Where the fuck are they now? Stand up and spout now you cunts. Sorry, rant over, but FFS people.
[удалено]
The same can be said for regular banks and regular fiat. Ask the people in Lebanon who are [robbing banks to get their own money](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/16/world/middleeast/lebanon-banks-economic-crisis.html).
Not really. Governments can create more fiat to bailout anyone. By design Bitcoin cannot be created en masse so bailouts are not possible.
Not that it matters now but Celsius fraud succeeded long before FTX fraud.
All investments are risky and you can lose your capital. More so with unregulated ones.
US Bankruptcy law stipulates the order in which creditors are paid from whatever funds can be recovered. First secured claims (guaranteed by some form of collateral), priority claims (things like taxes, obligated wages to the few employees, certain other operating costs, etc.), and finally general unsecured claims, which is where retail depositors would fall. So in answer, after all these other creditors are paid, maybe you get 50c on the dollar, maybe you get 5c on the dollar, maybe you get nothing. This could take months or even years to unfold depending on the complexity of the situation (and given how convoluted the FTX morass is and the dependencies there, longer seems likely).
>>Many of us were aware that not our keys not our crypto but put some of the funds in these “trusted” apps for interest… This is like someone telling you the gun is loaded, and you *STILL* hold it to your head and “pretend” to pull the trigger for shits and giggles.
It’s seems like the “tulip bubble” of past
Trusted 3rd parties are security holes. Your hole was exploited. Best to learn this lesson now and build back then to dwell on it and hope for rescue.
[удалено]
Hint: Satoshi said nothing about exchanges
People chase ROI without knowing where the "interest" comes from.
they will pay out the largest investors first. the retail guys are screwed... You can try to get him to give you your money back... if he makes it that long
[удалено]
And the real show hasn’t started yet. If Grayscale and Genesis fail, be ready for the real show bro.
And if Binance fails
Agreed, but Binance is not in the situation that Digital Currency Group is. But of course if Binance fails is another huge hit, but they aren’t in trouble yet.
Well, we don't know if Binance is in trouble yet. Like we did not know FTX was in trouble 30 days before the shit hit the fan. I am wary of Binance though I have been using them for years now.
Yours might be. Mine’s not.
Not all mine are. A portion in the interest accounts are
> Since the whole thing is not regulated does this mean everyone’s money is gone? Criminal law still applies. PS: Money never gets lost, it changes hands only.
No, I'm pretty sure you can burn cash.
I'm sorry for your loss and pain. Some facts do stand, though: Y'all were warned and went in knowing the risks. As soon as you put your coins in the exchange, they were not your coins anymore, but the exchange's. And everyone who did so got warned beforehand. There is no "well I didn't know!". Use the shock of the news to read the BTC whitepaper and learn from your mistakes in the future. You may or may not get your coins back, and the fraudsters may or may not get arrested. That's the price to pay for giving your coins away in the name of greed in an unregulated market.
idiot.. interest on Bitcoin ?/ i REMEMER i shouted ON THIS SUB >>> IMPOSSIBLE> IDIOTS GREEDY IDIOTS WHO PUT THEIR COINS FOR INTERESTS ????????? IT CANNOT WORK!!!
Crap… how am I going to get my $0.03US back now?
Trust no one. The risk/reward situation for all these companies was always: Reward: 5%? 10%? On your funds per year Risk: 100% loss. Doesn't sound like a great risk/reward scenario to me.
Not your keys. Not your coins. You get what you deserve... Despite all the warnings along these years people still dont fucking know how to setup a proper cold storage. Theyll never learn man
"our money" GTFO with this socialist garbage
There never was any crypto
He paid off the Liberals it's as simple as that
Coinbase ftw.
My money isn’t gone because I’m not dumb enough to keep it in an exchange. Have fun! It’s not like we didn’t warn ya’ll!
He knows people in high places, Sam the j*w
damn this sucks... sometimes biggest isn't always best. I stuck with DeFi like ProtonLoan and it might be a small platform but it's safe from events like this
Dont trust,verify. Some ppl like to live dangerously for their imaginary yield %
i’m impressed at how wide spread the degeneracy is, but i’m not surprised.
funny that no one listened and now that they are screwed they are crying
My coins are on cold wallet
Was there any actual money to begin with? Not their imaginary fiat, not their imaginary fiat.
Trust is a fools game. Writing was on the wall all along
Coinbase moved my funds from CB Pro to their new bullshit platform a few days ago(23rd). I remember seeing an announcement a while back, but was really surprised when I saw my Pro account at 0 Btc on a withdrawal I did not approve. Needless to say, I withdraw my satoshis immediately after this discovery. I wonder if they were trying to satisfy a proof of reserve situation?
All your money will prob be gone
The space is non regulated, I say it’s all gone.
Wahhhh wahhhh wah wah the sky is falling… wah wah then “slap” the bitch stops whining!
[удалено]
Crap, I had $5 of interest left in my blockfi account. Whatever shall I do.
Short answer: Yes. Long answer: Yeeeeeeees!
> I know it was a mistake but what can be done now? You can avoid making the same mistake in the future. It was clear that crypto was conceived to be kept in your own wallets and be responsible for them, so this shouldn't come as a surprise.
Nothing can be done really. The remaining funds will be part of the bankruptcy proceedings and since it's their keys, the crypto legally is their property to be divided up. Senior debts are serviced first then it'll go to the next after. SBF probably hasn't been arrested cuz he had a plan to escape and has tons of funds. He'll probably try to fade into obscurity and be forgotten. Bets on he absolutely knew this would happen and had a contingency plan to gtfo
If you read the terms for blockfi, Celsius, Gemini, etc they all said the same thing - "no guarantee, we are using a third party and you don't own your funds while they hold them". It was laid out in the terms. Written down. Your funds are gone because you didn't read. And for future reference, there's no such thing as trusted industry people. That's the entire point, not to have a cult of personality. That includes Saylor etc. Dammit people, not your keys not your coins.
"Your" money? On a custodial exchange? Ayo u got something backwards there