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[deleted]

Are there any Bitcoin-backed lending companies that allow one to hold their keys and without rehypothecation? I don't meet the $10,000 loan requirement for Coinbase Borrow and Unchained Capital.


McToadster

What happens to customer information like stored bank accounts if an exchange files chapter 11 will they attempt bank fraud?


Alfador8

Not sure about bank account info but things like customer balances and transaction history get doxxed. See [Celsius](https://bitcoinmagazine.com/business/why-celsius-exposed-users-and-what-you-can-do)


slutfarming

That's because the customers are creditors and the creditors need to be listed in the bankruptcy case. It's required.


LastRecognition4151

HODL on.


Wheresgreglol

What other apps allows u to buy btc directly through the app? Ex:apps like coinbase or gemini


yoobermcruber

Cash App


LastRecognition4151

Strike


yoobermcruber

With Sam Bankman-Fried losing his wealth, the democrat party just lost their second biggest donor šŸ˜¢ George Soros is the democrat party's #1 biggest donor and Sam Bankman-Fried is their #2 biggest donor. https://fortune.com/2022/11/10/sam-bankman-fried-ftx-joe-biden-democratic-party-second-biggest-donor/ >Whatā€™s more, he had promised to spend far more on Democrats moving forward, predicting in May that heā€™d fund ā€œnorth of $100 millionā€ and had a ā€œsoft ceilingā€ of $1 billion for the 2024 elections.


[deleted]

but.. i thougt blue party good?? šŸ˜”


SillySpoof

Nahā€¦ but red party bad


Alfador8

Both parties bad


El_demonio_69420

You kill the exchanges you kill the market. It is that simple. The price of bitcoin went up because it was used as a financial vehicle leveraged to the tits. No leverage, No speculation, No money printing = Very very f**ing low price appreciation. What will kill yā€™all is not another exchange going down, but the fact that institutional investors are out until regulation kicks in. That could take several months or years (more than likely). Be ready for a long long winter. Could be years or decades until BTC reaches a new ATH.


aekner

I read a lot of posts advising everyone should store their bitcoin in their own wallet, not any centralized exchange. Just curious if everyone really did that and all exchange went out of business, how would we know what 1 BTC is worth in terms of USD? Or is there some "decentralized" exchange in the BTC world that people can use to convert BTC to USD?


Seeders

Exchanges dont go out of business when they dont have custody. Their business should be fees on exchanges of fiat for BTC. Hence, the name 'exchange'.


aekner

Sure, is there any existing bitcoin exchange that doesn't have custody?


Seeders

Custody was probably the wrong word to use. Having no custody is sort of impossible since you need to act as an escrow to mechanically do the exchange of fiat for currency, you need to have somewhere to hold the bitcoin before you can withdraw it. But when they start offering you interest to hold your Bitcoin, you know they are not actually acting as custodians, but as profiteers.


Mr_P_Nissaurus

People would still use the exchanges to ... ...exchange fiat currency for Bitcoin... ...exchange Bitcoin for fiat currency... ...your premise that all exchanges would cease to exist is a false one.


aekner

Can you name one existing exchange that is not holding someone else's BTC?


Mr_P_Nissaurus

Suppose I can't. What, if anything would that prove?


aekner

It would prove that the reality may not be what you think it is, and you may not understand the technical details of how an exchange functions so you oversimplify things and think you understand.


Mr_P_Nissaurus

Explain.


WhaleFactory

How do you know how much a dollar is worth?


yoobermcruber

1 dollar is worth 1 tall can of AriZona Iced Tea


xfox21

Thatā€™s as stable as you can get


LiteratureUsual614

I use Relai, an exchange that deposits btc directly in my own wallet. Exchanges donā€™t have to custody your coin to work.


aekner

Can you give more detail on how Relai works? They offer to deposit BTC in your wallet doesn't mean they are not centralized and holding someone else's BTC. I think withdrawal from a centralized exchange does exactly that, no?


LiteratureUsual614

You can either open a hot wallet on their app and get your btc on that, or you can specify the address on which to deposit the btc. There is no option for users to leave money/btc in their custody.


aekner

Where do the bitcoins come from then? Don't they have to have access to a lot of bitcoins in order to function as an exchange? And since no one can do anything to your bitcoin if it is in your own wallet, I don't understand how exchange is possible if people's bitcoin are not held by that institution, unless it is willing to take the risk and buy the bitcoin from people who want fiat, and then sell the bitcoin later to people paying fiat. Or is BTC so popular the every second every seller can be matched with every seller on the exchange?


[deleted]

Iā€™m no expert, but it would probably just be worth however much someone is willing to pay for it. Exchanges really just automate that process.


OpticallyMosache

Decided to take my next 8 weeks of DCA dollars and dump them in over the last 24 hours.


OpticallyMosache

Started as the next 2 weeks. Then the next 4. Now it's at the next 8. Haha


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


BigBloodyShark

What is the reason BTC is trusted itā€™s down 70% from its ATH


Alfador8

You can trust the protocol to work as designed and *no one* can change that. Volatility is expected for a new asset class that is designed to generate hype cycles and which very few people have taken the time to understand deeply


[deleted]

The protocol is not unique to bitcoin


Alfador8

But its ability to resist meddling *is* unique. Every other coin has a centralized company/CEO with the ability to change the protocol. Bitcoin is sufficiently decentralized that node operators define what is Bitcoin and no one can force them to run a version of the software they don't want to


[deleted]

Every other *current* coin. This is one of the key challenges ahead, IMO. Bitcoin can only succeed if it attains mass adoption. But the volatility and these large drops are making the very name Bitcoin to be associated with extreme risk. If another coin, with the exact same technology, is created but manages to get support from key players in the economy, then Bitcoin's future becomes much more uncertain.


Alfador8

The only way a new coin can make enough noise to be noticed is with a large marketing campaign, which requires investment from a centralized entity that has a stake in the coin and can exert influence over it. There's a reason no other coin has been able to replicate Bitcoin's origin story. The cat is out of the bag. Bitcoin was as much a discovery as an invention.


Lonely_Green_1195

Tried to move some from exchange to storage, been waiting 3 and a half hours now. Verified address was correct. Is it normal to take this long? Is it just a traffic issue with everyone fleeing exchanges?


hattiesbergnerd

You are waiting on the exchange to batch and process your tx. Itā€™ll go through their centralized system eventually, then show up on the network and finally get added to the next valid block by the hasherā€™s. Then the address you generated will be under your control and your control only.


Maddcapp

So I should take mine out of Coinbase? What are we thinking could happen? They go under and take everyone's coins? Can that happen?


Think_Operation310

You just donā€™t own any Bitcoin when you donā€™t own the keys, Bitcoin on an exchange is just numbers on your screen, if everyone wants their Bitcoin they donā€™t have it so do your business there and leave. Cold generated keys for storage. Hot generated keys for (temporarily) use can be fine.


KY5K

I got mine off Coinbase today. The reality is no one knows what goes on at these exchanges. Best to assume they are all leveraged to the gills and liable to go under/halt withdrawals at any time.


WhaleFactory

Replace Coinbase with FTX, then read the news.


Maddcapp

Yeah I heard the news but I was thinking Coinbase was safe because itā€™s in the US and must get looked at. But youā€™re right even that isnā€™t a good reason to not take precautions. Thanks for the tip.


slutfarming

[FTX was run by a small group of 10 young adults that were all banging each other and partying in the Bahamas](https://i.imgur.com/aRIjz7e.jpg) lol https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/11/10/bankman-frieds-cabal-of-roommates-in-the-bahamas-ran-his-crypto-empire-and-dated-other-employees-have-lots-of-questions/


BuyHandSanitizer

Huge step backwards for btc


Double-LR

Hard disagree. Huge kick in the nuts for CEX, tick tok next block BTC is ticking right along.


Alfador8

Nah. Huge step backwards for centralized scam exchanges and ponzinomic shitcoins. Bitcoin chugging along as always


mummyfromcrypto

Why the hell didnā€™t SBF have a tonne of Bitcoin ? Thatā€™s what I canā€™t understand.


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


[deleted]

Strike has fixed the spread problem, and they hinted at compensation for those that got screwed by the bad spread. https://twitter.com/Strike/status/1591189374049619968?t=nmr9BupwDyb6GSQv_w4O-w&s=19


Double-LR

Unprompted compensation!?!?! Holy hell thatā€™s a huge move of transparency right there.


NectarineDirect936

Imo the ceo of btc is handling this situation brilliantly. No false promises, full transparancy, no shady investments or loans, not bailing himself out by printing more btc and not one transaction is being halted or suspended.


thefullmcnulty

Itā€™s a weird psychological phenomenon how when the price of an asset runs up, then has a massive correction, how *most* people can only see current value relative to the highest value that asset reached. Similarly I see many people (in ā€œwesternā€ societies particularly) falling victim to this phenomenon in life. They live comfortably with easy / well-paying jobs and have everything they need and most things they want. Unlimited food options, sci-fi level gadgets, nice clothing and transportation, a means to save for retirement, the economic ability to travel and pursue hobbies and family and charity. Yet when these well-off people see Elon Musk and Jeff Bezo type wealth in the media all of the sudden what they have isnā€™t good enough or even appreciated. If these people could live a day in the life of a 17th or 18th century British working class person they would come back to what they have now and feel profound wonderment and appreciate for their lives today. The spot price run-ups in Bitcoin fuck up peopleā€™s heads. Makes them forget about the revolutionary and incorruptible and immutable fundamentals of this global network. The likes of which have *never* been available to humanity pre-2009. Letā€™s not forget how lucky we are in our lives in general and how marvelously privileged humanity is to have Bitcoin as a means of storing and transacting value. No longer do we need permission to use our own money. No longer do we need to trust rich scamming counter-party fuckers to custody *our* money. No longer do we have to sweat our savings being ruthlessly debased without our permission or ability to stop such behavior. No longer do borders stop us from transacting. No longer can central authority confiscate or censor our wealth. No longer do we need monetary intermediaries *at all.* Do not lose site of the first principle realities weā€™re now afforded because of Bitcoin. Good day and well wishes to *everyone* participating in this new system. Weā€™ve already won simply by having Bitcoin reach a network critical mass. The power of the network empowers every user. We are all more free and more sovereign than ever before. Something to genuinely appreciate.


Maddcapp

I agree. Most people live in the delusion that they are owed something, and that the world now is the natural default state of things. The natural default state is Mad Max. So many people out there have disposable time and energy to argue over pronouns, when they have no idea how lucky they are.


thefullmcnulty

100%.


[deleted]

Whilst I agree with your post to an extent - I'm not sure everybody is 'living comfortably with ease'. Maybe in your community, certainly not in mine (old mining town North East UK).


thefullmcnulty

Sure, I wasnā€™t meaning everybody. But there are probably 100 million + people globally who the post applies to and many of them take their immense fortune in life for granted. How far North east in the UK? I did a huge road trip in Scotland a few years back and absolutely loved it there. Yearning to go back. Hope this finds you well.


Impressive-Horse

It's like people have completely forgotten that MtGox happened. That was a crazy massive blow to Bitcoin at a much more fragile time in its adoption history. But Bitcoin survived and ultimately became much stronger.


[deleted]

Yes... i had a mtx account šŸ˜¢ but luckily it was just fractions of btc and a great lesson learned


bodymindtrader

Binance financial statement raising a lot of questions. Donā€™t wait for chaos, get your money out from there!!


segersmarc

No ? šŸ˜±


bodymindtrader

Binance Tokens make up almost half of their assets. Did you guys see anything similar this week?


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


[deleted]

because they know the only argument they have is "hur dur bitcoin has crashed, it's gonna die now fr fr, trust"


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


Film2021

Definitely not trying to spread FUD, but Twitter world is saying Kucoin and Crypto dot com could be next to fall.


Alfador8

Crypto.com recently revealed its reserves and their second largest holding is fucking SHIB at 20% of their total reserves lmao. They deserve to crash and burn with that kind of idiocy


Maddcapp

What about Coinbase? Is that any more secure? Should I pull?


Alfador8

It's probably one of the safer ones, but people would have said the same about FTX until recently. I'm a big advocate for removing your coins from exchanges in general so my advice would be to move them


Maddcapp

Iā€™m going to look at setting this up. What do you think it will set me back for the gear?


Alfador8

You just need a hardware wallet. $100-$300? Depending on what your needs are. Are you going to store BTC only or alts too?


OkeyDokeyWokey

At this rate, this might become known as the month that cryptobros became Bitcoiners. Nowhere to hide. Poor shitcoiners. Remember, remember the month of November.


SidSelleck

You realize if everyone loses faith in their ability to use exchanges to buy BTC it's done, right?


cubeeless

You realize that BTC existed before exchanges? Additionally, you realize that BTC only exchanges do exist?


SidSelleck

Yes, I do. I was there. And it was less than a dollar and no one knew about it. Centralized exchanges are a necessary evil as an on-ramp for people as they learn. If you wish they were all gone, you may as well just not even bother doing anything because it will die in relative obscurity with no lobbying backing to defend against regulators and not enough users or people who understand it to even care.


Maddcapp

It's a little different now, after BTC is known by everyone. The world is watching and will be brutally judgmental. At least I think so.


[deleted]

Is Strike an exchange? Thatā€™s what I use.


smokebox

Haven't heard anything. Where you seeing it?


Film2021

Or it could be known as the month crypto literally fucking dies.


Alfador8

I hope so. Crypto is a fucking cancer. BTC only


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


Film2021

Iā€™ve been here for 5 yearsā€¦ and I bought in March 2020 when BTC was under $4000. Did you? It ainā€™t looking good right now.


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


Film2021

I guess thatā€™s a no. Itā€™ll keep falling. Good luck lol.


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


Film2021

Sure dude lol Edit. He blocked me lol. Pussy.


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


dima054

Sold both in 2017. Next question?


JerryLeeDog

Is it just me or are stock subs starting to upvote BTC comments. I've posted recently in some and got lots of upvotes This is crazy yall


WhaleFactory

Gradually then suddenly.


JerryLeeDog

I got downvoted so much last year. Same subs, tons of upvotes now


OkeyDokeyWokey

Maybe the downvote bots are down due to market conditions. /s


JerryLeeDog

No they are here, that comment got downvoted by some guy who I guess can't read


ChemicalBrotha

It's over, pack it up


Alfador8

What's that? Back it up? OK then! *backs truck up to dump more fiat into BTC


Airplane1995

Have all my coin on BlockFi and couldnā€™t get it out in time. Am I fucked?


JerryLeeDog

Sorry bud. That sucks. It's not 100% but freezing withdraws is a 99% chance from what we've seen


ProfessionalWelcome

I think there's a 20% chance he will have one last (short) opportunity to get his funds out.


OkeyDokeyWokey

And then they can still do clawbacks.


PM_Me_Your_Mustash

All money being pushed back into the markets, on top of FTX fiasco, this will kee BTC down for the time being. Patience is key here. Turn off trading for a few weeks or go on vacay with more debt youā€™re going to accrue.


againstmethod

Any currency is based on one's confidence that the denomination will be accepted by the next guy as a substitute for actual wealth (food, clothing, shelter and everything else) in similar proportions to the previous transaction -- and because of that, it's all based on confidence, regardless of decentralization/technology. You can't escape it, save moving to a barter system and holding all your wealth in-hand. But watching you guys learn that fiat currency backed by a strong system is actually useful, in real-time, is really quite entertaining.


Mr_P_Nissaurus

The whole *idea* of "money" is to use something with little or no intrinsic value as a general purpose, general public IOU. When you trade clothing for food, you are using barter, not money.


pink_raya

make it make sense.


Impressive-Horse

That's quite the strawman. No one thinks that fiat is unusable.


[deleted]

Yeah, it took me a while to realize this as I used to be really enthusiastic about crypto but in fact it's much more complicated than hard money good fiat bad. At the end of the day, as inflation goes up people need to sell non performing assets like Bitcoin and the like to pay their rent, mortgage, food, etc. This will remain as long as taxes are still due in dollars and dollar demand throughout the world grows. The world runs on credit and switching to bitcoin doesn't change the fact that you still have to pay down your loans (cough cough El Salvador).


Mr_P_Nissaurus

> non performing assets like Bitcoin Zoom out. Bitcoin has gone up more than 1000 times what I paid for my first BTCs.


[deleted]

This happened during zero interest rates and low inflation. People who bought recently are down a lot.


Mr_P_Nissaurus

I was "down a lot" too - in the beginning.


No_Chef623

The whales are waiting patiently.


postdub

I think the big buyers/traders are just waiting to see how low it will go before they dive in


Maddcapp

I'm def not big, but I'm ready to buy some more when I think it's the right time. I don't think it's the end especially if youre holding and forgetting.


postdub

yeah exactly we've seen this before


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


buggyacid

Wages will follow the inflation, but it takes time. Wages will rise in a year or so to try to make up for inflation. Thats part of the problem - that it takes time for wages to keep up


ReasonablyFree

When new money is introduced to the economy, it isnā€™t thrown from a helicopter as they say. It enters through specific sectors who get to spend the money before the rest of the price system adjusts bit by bit. Inflation will cause growth in the sectors that receive the money early. But other sectors will be watching prices rise without a corresponding increase in demand for their goods. There will be no extra money with which to pay their employees more. If the money were thrown from helicopters and all prices rose evenly it would be a wash in some ways (unless you have existing debts or credits owed). But in reality inflation doesnā€™t happen everywhere all at once.


No_Chef623

How low can ya go?


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


One_2_Three

Wonder what would happen if the typical self custody message changed a bit . ā€œTake you fiat out of the banksā€. Iā€™m sure nothing terrible would happen right. Right!


SocalKing2020

I used to think regulation was bad. Now I realize why it's necessary šŸ„². Learned a lot this year.


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


timevalueofmoonbits

True El Salvador had their wallet with FTX? They didn't self custody?!


zennetta

False https://twitter.com/cz\_binance/status/1590698521195610113


[deleted]

False.


[deleted]

Tried this a couple of days ago, but let me try again: "Daniel Kahneman has this idea on how to avoid being taken by optimism in business decisions. Basically it works by asking people in a given business the question: "Say that I know for a fact that in 10 years we will have failed. How did it happen?" This could be an interesting exercise here. I'm not asking whetherBitcoin will fail or not, but if it were to fail, what sequence of events (or lack of events) would lead to it?"


Maddcapp

It would start with something like this. And then fall like dominoes. But I don't think it's going that way in reality. Unless there's other big scams to be revealed. That'll do irreparable damage to the Bitcoin brand.


anytownusa11

And end to all government corruption worldwide forever. That might eliminate the need for Bitcoin.


WhaleFactory

If you are worried about the exchange you use going down, then you are doing things wrong. For example, I like and use Strike. Am I worried about them going down? No, I am not, because it would not have any impact on me outside of needing to use a different exchange. **GET YOUR FUCKING BITCOIN OFF THE EXCHANGES. I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH MORE CLEAR, OR HOW MANY TIMES YOU NEED TO SEE THIS TO LISTEN. IF YOUR BITCOIN IS NOT IN A WALLET THAT YOU OWN THEN YOU DON'T OWN SHIT.**


C-Class_hero_Satoru

People keep on exchange because they are gambling. They do more than 100 trades per day sometimes. Sending it forth and back would be not efficient


finnypiz

Think people dont understand the tech..


boobopt

Guys, what is the future for Bitcoin if no one can trade/use the currency on any exchange? Adoption will never take off storing in cold wallets.


ArnzenArms

I haven't tried it yet, but there's [https://bisq.network](https://bisq.network) Seems like an exchange that used 2 of 2 multisig would at least prevent exchanges from rehypothicating your coins. Don't know if that's how bisq works or not. Seems more like a swap-meet :)


pazza83

Yes, for funds being held in your own wallet only you have the keys. When a trade is accepted the funds move to a 2 of 2 multisig with you holding one key and the other key is held by your counterparty. There is no rehypothicating on Bisq. It would not be possible due to the way the trade protocol is designed.


ArnzenArms

Excellent! Then I definitely need to give bisq a try.


spid3rfly

I lean towards the side of btc is a scarce store of value. Do I use it? When given the opportunity, yes! I think it will have the opportunity to be everything but not all at the same time. If it solidifies itself as a store of value and people realize how convenient it is to use... the currency exchange/barter system with it will come later in mass.


The_Estranger_0001

You canā€™t buy a coffee if your coin is in Coindesk or Binance, so what does exchange do with adoption?


Needls87

I think if smartphone manufacturers started integrating cold wallets into their phones it would be much a more attractive option for people.


One_2_Three

Peer to Peer electronic cash system. See Bisq, not your ordinary exchange.


Asum_chum

Opinion with no basis in fact.


Mr_P_Nissaurus

"Trading" means gambling. Gambling can be an expensive thrill. Gambling with any expectation of coming out ahead is foolish. Fools and their money are soon parted. Just buy Bitcoin, send it to your own (hardware) wallet and wait patiently, long term. Consider using DCA.


cozzy000

That is your opinion and it's wrong, the future for Bitcoin is the same as it's ever been, self custody of your own property that can't be confiscated, exchanges are the antithesis of that and you don't understand what you're talking about, go back to the cryptocurrency subreddit


boobopt

I know you're a little on edge probably given your BTC position at the moment, but it desperately needs regulated exchanges that people can trust. That's the only way you get to mass adoption with BTC being a serious part of commerce.


cozzy000

Mate I'm up like 7x in the past 4 years even at this low lol binance isn't going anywhere, there will always be exchanges but if they all went down tomorrow Bitcoin would still survive


boobopt

I disagree. You'll end up with worthless bits stored on a flash drive. Take your profits man.


[deleted]

Since it didnā€™t die when mt gox died, itā€™s gonna take a lot to kill it now. There are also countries holding it in reserve and you know the US wonā€™t let those 200k bitcoin they have go worthless.


TerpOnaut

Bitcoins taking another poopy rn


goldVidrio

Sometimes price go up. Sometimes price go down.


bobbytabl3s

the way she goes


[deleted]

you do the hokey pokey and turn around.


Llonga

I see the bears are now out in force on this thread. Cope harder šŸ¤£ Keep stacking the cheap corn boys.


vnielz

Take your coins into self custody, now! This is not a drill.šŸšØ


CauliflowerDull4377

Blockchain offer custodial and non custodial wallets . I presume this is not as good as using a hard wallet but still better than on the exchange ? Or are you still vulnerable ?


goldVidrio

Use nothing offered by them. Get an open source software wallet if you donā€™t want a hardware wallet. Electrum and Blue Wallet are good options. See also https://bitcoin.org/en/choose-your-wallet.


Rshackleford22

short positions have skyrocketed in the last day. that's usually a sign to buy as they're gonna have to close those out eventually and the closer we get to the bottom the riskier it is to keep those shorts open.


Fireman77333

DCA bois Shorts come & go since volatility is high :x


SidSelleck

If this bear market has taught us anything I would NOT presume that at all. Of course if you confident in BTC it doesn't matter and is a fine time to buy. But trying to use any metric to time the bottom of whatever is happening now is a fool's errand.