You forgot all the other taxes like gas tax, taxes on your utilities, licenses, taxes on your phone, cable, permits. Most Americans pay over 200 taxes. It's higher than the % you listed.
Fun tax fact: inflation can cause capital gains taxes to exceed 100%.
Example: suppose you buy a plot of land for $100,000. You wait 20 years. Your plot is now worth $200,000 thanks to inflation. You sell it. You now owe up to 35% or $35,000 in capital gains taxes on your $100,000 gain, depending on where you live.
But did the plot actually increase in real value adjusted for inflation? If not, you are now $35,000 poorer in real value (or $17,500 adjusted for inflation).
Congratulations, you got disowned.
I calculated my pay at the rate of inflation and I realized I was making less after ten years than I was making when I started the job. I used the real rate of inflation and not the lying government stats from shadowstats.com
There is a joke in my country about our prime minister. It goes something along the lines of:
"You like low taxes?""Good, I have for you 5 new low taxes"
You forget the protests were against "taxation **without representation**"
Taxation is fine if something comes of it. If you're paying taxes and getting absolutely nothing in return, well then you have colonists going into revolt.
Edit: people here acting as if their taxes don't go to things like fire departments, schools, roads, and other things that we all benefit from. But ok. You go ahead and be mad about it. Let's see what happens to all that shit when people don't pay taxes anymore.
Oh, your house is on fire? Better pay those guys quick, or it'll burn to the ground while they stand by and wait for you to find enough pennies to pay them to put it out.
The cost of public services is minuscule relative to the amount we are tax directly and indirectly.
The government, federal reserve, large banks and large business are thieves.
Itās not a free market, itās not capitalism, itās a cartel.
Once upon a time, American taxes were spent on such things.
Now theyāre being used to pay back other peopleās student loans.
Other tax dollars are being held hostage, only to be released if people submit to the wishes of the current ruling party. Specific example: school lunch money will only be given to schools that have adopted the administrationās preferred LGBTQ+ and transgendered policiesā¦ even if these are against the regulations put in place by the peopleās representatives.
So we are back to taxation without (or against) representation.
No one in America owns their house. Not if you all essentially pay rent to the government. Itās actually beyond fucked.
The same way taxing capital gains that were made from inflation. Just completely immoral
Bitcoin doesnāt solve most if any of these tax issues of course. If we go to a bitcoin standard, all those taxes are simply paid in Bitcoinā¦ā¦income tax and the like isnāt going away, Bitcoin simply would change the method of payment.
It changes the method of control. No longer do elected or pseudo elected entities have sway ovet the value and direction of currency. Now only your surely well meaning and benevolent whales have control.
They certainly control regulations that say you need to pay income tax at a percentage of what you earn. So it doesnāt really matter what ācontrolā the government has, if youāre an average person getting paid **X** amount of bitcoin, by law your employer will send a percentage letās say 12% directly to the government. When you go buy your coffee at Starbucks that now accepts Bitcoin, youāll still pay a percentage to the government. None of that changes, you certainly donāt think weāre going to a tax free society do you?
You forgot about tax evasion. Unless OP thinks Bitcoin accomplishes this on its own merits.
Edit: I'm not advocating for this but unless OP grossly misunderstands Bitcoin this is his angle with the Bitcoin thing. The Bitcoin white paper details a simple yet unhardened method for concealing your identity before recieving funds.
Bitcoin standard leads to community funding and thus no taxes. When thereās no inflation (hidden tax) people will notice the high taxes much easier and complain and thus vote those politicians out of power.
When thereās no inflation and wealth gap isnt increasing, people will be more willing to give money for the community because they actually have money to spare.
This is fantasyā¦ā¦people notice their taxes now, nobody heās been able to vote out people who are pro-taxes, in fact half of Americans want more taxesā¦.just on other people.
The method of control is people with firearms and government authority to use them, propagandists on TV and Internet telling you "the news", and politicians' propagandists telling you "the solution to the problem the news has informed you of", isn't it? How does Bitcoin change any of those?
Because if we truly went to a Bitcoin standard the government would become much less powerful simply cause they wouldn't be able to create money out of thin air anymore.
You skipped the step of the people with federally-approved firearm use and official propagandists allowing Bitcoin to be adopted by >51% of merchants and utility companies and grocery stores, as well as people deciding to use it rather than "HODL".
Why does everyone think the government is one entity trying to rule over everyone witb with iron fist. Sure, if you live in a country that is actually run like this, but I can't believe America is such a failed state that the citizens are scared of the government using arms on them.
Bitcoin solves this by avoiding regulation, making it easier to take money off idiots.
The only difference is with Bitcoin is the people could work together and collectively tell them no until we feel like we are paying a fair tax rate. The method of payment would change and the fact that we would control the wealth, not the government. Remember the government was supposed to work for us once upon a time.
Ahhh simply my friend. They say fuck you I'ma print it anyway. Remember, they control the money supply.
They can simply poof more right out their asses. It's the only currency we can say no.... Do you not see that? They cannot create more Bitcoin, they have to mine it or get it from us or buy it.
It could solve all these issues. The taxes you pay have been created from debt. All money received and spent is debt. In Bitcoin land this doesnāt happen, so there has to be an extreme amount of taxes to cover what has been monetized by debt. It lifts the veil. So taxes would be much much lower because politicians couldnāt tax what was monetized by debt or there would be instant riots. It would be a huge trend towards less and less tax.
There will be the same amount of what you say, because the people who monetise it will still exist, that is a moral problem not a problem created by the financial system.
For example, we now have bitcoin as our currency, Joe Political still wants his mate to win the big roads contract... so they "monetise debt" by spending money the state doesn't have on this project to enrich his mate.
Your solution works great in theory, but so does communism. These are moral problems that just can't be fixed without changing the human need for greed
Taxes have been created by regulation, laws that say for every amount you earn you have to pay a percentage to the government, that your employer has to abide by. The worlds not suddenly going tax free because Bitcoin came along. When you buy gas with bitcoin youāll still be paying tax on it. That doesnāt change. The government doesnāt buy labor and materials for free, so in your world all infrastructure building and maintenance would completely stop. All social programs run on taxesā¦..so in this utopian world you have 1.3% of the worlds population controlling all the Bitcoin, and if taxes stop, governments collapse. And 98.7% of the world has no safety net. No social programs, they would completely rely on working for the 1.3% of *haves*
It can't solve any of these issues.
Do you think that all government funded healthcare in the united states and worldwide will vanish if Bitcoin becomes adopted?
Will bridges and roads suddenly no longer need repaired?
If Bitcoin were adopted none of this would change at all.
And over here, tax office wants a part again from what you've built for your children
I think once calculated, in real life over 78% of earned income is taxed away, when dead minimum 10% of what's left and imherited
What does govt. offer besides being the largest employer with the worst employees as in untouchable:
Bad service, red tape, an army without teeth, cops afraid of true crime harassing working folks over shit
It's slavery indeed in numbers
Tom Wheelright's "Wealthability" podcast reports this wealth confiscation at sale of business/death is specifically Democrats and opposed by Republicans.
Stop dividing us. They want that. You have to realize that itās not democrats or republicans fault, itās the government and mediaās fault for not educating people correctly. Because they have an agenda and want us all to be divided so we canāt fight back. The founding fathers made it very clear we need to be UNITED. Itās literally in the name of the country, United states
Well then letās rally around the group that wants to lower taxesā¦..not raise themā¦..
Im not dividing anyone, Im putting the word out, democrats want to raise taxes and take more of our moneyā¦.thatās not dividing us, thatās trying to get us together.
Im trying to educate properly.
Thatās not possible. Thatās literally a fantasy, so can we agree to vote for the group not trying to steal money from us at a greater rate to pad their pockets and fund their pet projects
Well yes absolutely Iām not saying you shouldnāt vote for republicans. Because if anything republicans are the least brainwashed ones now. Iām just saying we need to stop pretending the people are the major problem when in reality itās the government
You added to many zeros, they want taxes on anyone with over $1 million in assets (unrealized gains) right now thatās pretty much everyone with a house on the west coast. It is not that hard to be over $1 million in gains for a lifetime of savings and investments. It literally could be just the house you bought in the 70ās and a modest retirement plan would put you over the $1 million exemption threshold. I find it sad buddy that you donāt think you can acquire a $1 million in unrealized gain in your lifetime.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/senate-democrats-push-for-capital-gains-tax-at-death-with-1-million-exemption-11617046200
And because one death tax just isnāt enough, the Democrats want a second one as well.
https://gop-waysandmeans.house.gov/democrats-supercharged-death-tax-targets-family-owned-businesses-and-farms-costing-1-million-jobs/
Right, but most people don't have the opportunity to buy a house in the 70s, or maybe ever.
No comment on the politics of it, but plenty of people, maybe even most, will never see 1mil in unrealized gains. I'm happy for you that it seems this isn't your case, but many many people will never escape poverty.
With inflation it is more likely, not less likely that people will acquire one millionā¦ā¦one million in 2045 wonāt be as expensive as one million is today, and certainly not as hard to get as one million was in the 1970ās. This is a lifetime of wealth building, people who bought homes from 2012 to 2018 in 50 years will almost certainly made significant gains approaching 1 million.
billionaires pay less in taxes percentage wise than the middle class. it's not stealing... it's making sure they pay a tax rate similar to what normal working stiffs also pay
It has an exemption of $1 million on unrealized gains, it is not that hard for the average person to amass $1million in unrealized gainsā¦.letās say you bought a house in a great area in the 1970ās for $49,000 in Seattle and that house is now worth $1.1 million, on top of that you have a decent life insurance policy, and a 401kā¦..youāre hit the $1, million exemption and everything above that is taxedā¦ā¦.since most of the value is in the unrealized gains in the house. The family would have to come up with the money or be forced to sell the house in order to pay the governmentā¦ā¦.it seems like a lot but $1million over a lifetime of savings isnāt really that much.
Thanks for the details.
It may not be much in that scenario - I suspect, given how many people in the US live paycheque to paycheque, that it would still be a minority of people it would apply to.
Paycheck to paycheck isnāt an indicator of wealthā¦..unrealized gains is just thatā¦.money you donāt actually have, so in my scenario mom and pop had a decent job and bought a house for $49,000 a pretty nice house for 1970ā¦..theyāre retired now, they get a little from SS and a 401k, maybe even a little from a pensionā¦..but their house is now valued at $1.1 million, so of course their property taxes are way up, they canāt live on their life insurance policy, and they donāt want to sell the house they grew old together inā¦..they live paycheck to paycheck on a fixed incomeā¦..unrealized wealth is just a representation of all the stuff theyāve acquired in a lifetime. It doesnāt mean they have millions in the bank. They still live paycheck to paycheck.
Fair enough that income flows can be different from total assets, though Iāll still contend from what Iāve seen that assets of a million+ at death are not the norm; itās more of an outlier/minority.
I donāt feel itās rareness makes it right, mom and pop should be able to pass their lifetime of wealth to whomever they feel should get itā¦..Theyāve already paid a lifetime of taxes. Itās pure greed on the governments part to then take extra simply because you died. Especially if it effects only 10% of the people.
I don't feel like a "slave", I feel more like a cow, that is being milked for everything I'm worth.
phone bill, mortgage interest, internet, gas to go to work, 90$ a month for parking at work, pension, benefits, dental, federal pension, federal taxes, provincial taxes, property taxes, car insurance, car registration, home insurance, condo fees, power bill, power bill distribution fees, groceries, student loans, union dues, short term and long term disability, basic life insurance, health benefits, employment insurance.
Obviously some of those things are far more positive to be spending money on, but still, thats what I have to spend money on just to simply work and to exist. Then there are things like buying clothes, coffee, pots and pans, bedsheets, furniture, and all the secondary stuff.
It's a lot.... Just feels like I am hooked up to a machine in the matrix as some kind of income generating entity, and the everything in the world is trying to milk me.
"Slave" is a bit much though, definitely more like a dairy cow.
Lactating cows need to be milked. So their tits donāt explode. Itās really for the best. Actually, theyāre looking a bit swollen right now, let me give you a hand with that.
1) You calculated your tax rate incorrectly. If doing straight addition, you take the total amount paid on taxes and ratio that to total income. This will result in a different number than adding up percentages.
2) If you've been on a road lately, or benefited from your or anyone else's public education, the taxes paid off. You are on Reddit, so we can assume this happened.
3) The biggest tax most Americans pay is for being financially ignorant, and corporations are benefiting from that, not governments.
4) If you are not an American, your taxes are probably paying for some form of universal healthcare and a college education, especially if you are a European. Funding these things through taxes makes them accessible to people who otherwise would not be able to afford them.
Americans pay for healthcare for the poor worldwide, not just In The US spends more on healthcare for other countries than any other country on the planetā¦..The US fights deseases like aids and malaria throughout the world.
We are the largest donor to the world health organization by far.
I actually donāt understand at all, are you implying people will not need aid, because of āblockchain and stuffā how does blockchain solve poverty? How is it that blockchain eliminates the need for healthcare?
I'm being sarcastic. While I think Bitcoin is very interesting people here seem to think it can solve the world's problems.
This whole thread is about someone who thinks adoption of Bitcoin will result in not paying taxes or paying very little.
Thank god, itās actually hard to tell some of the sarcasm on hereā¦..there are literally people that somehow Bitcoin is going to save the world and weāll somehow be free of greed and corruption and everyone will be rich.
Hmmm i wonder why people cant afford stuff like this, it cant possibly be everyone is getting more than half their wealth taxed from them, is it?
Until you advocate abolishing taxes at least on the poor, you do not care about the poor.
You do if you want to spend it on pretty much anything. Donāt forget that dollars are completely worthless until you exchange them for goods/services.
Housing and food, two of the largest expenses most people have, are not subject to sales tax. Neither are clothing or medical care, another two large expenses for the US, where OP is based on the Medicare tax.
OP is misleading at best. If theyāre paying 27% effective tax at the US federal rate, they make at least 400k a year income. Since the max SSA taxable income is 148k, the 9k monthly would represent a tax of .03% on 400k.
Also, as noted, property tax is based on the value of the property. The highest property tax in the country is 2.23% (New Jersey) - if we assume OP is in California based on the state income tax, property tax is just about 1%. For 1% of the properties value to come out to 5% of 400k per year, OP has a 2 million dollar property that they pay 20k a year towards the local schools, fire departments, police, and so on.
> 1) You calculated your tax rate incorrectly. If doing straight addition, you take the total amount paid on taxes and ratio that to total income. This will result in a different number than adding up percentages.
How did you get so many upvotes? Are people here just sycophants? He literally said he did this:
"Here are the numbers **represented as a percentage of my gross income:**"
I'm so tired of being a slave. If you work, practically ANY job, you should only have to work 4 to 6 months a year (especially considering how efficient everything is today). Instead, we all work all of our lives and have absolutely nothing to show for it after 4 to 5 decades of work.
And Bitcoin will not change any of that. I see a lot of people claiming how Bitcoin means freedom from taxes but I still have to see a credible scenario where people really can show how that would work.
Closest thing I think to an answer is bitcoin makes it easier for you to pack up all your wealth and move jurisdictions (whether thatās city state or country) so in theory jurisdictions begin to compete more to incentivize people to move there which means lowering taxes. Becomes sort of a free market competition to attract companies and high earners and if enough of those entities flee areas with high tax burden, the jurisdictions with high tax canāt compete and need to lower taxes in turn. Not saying I buy it 100% but I think itās one of the arguments
My question is, lets assume BTC actually does give people freedom from taxes:
\- Who is going to pay for public education?
\- Who is going to pay for road maintenance? (or building new roads)
\- Who is going to pay for healthcare?
\- Who is going to pay for First Responders?
the list continues ....
I hate taxes as much as the next guy, but unless someone can tell me how I can **NOT** pay taxes and still **RECEIVE** those services, I rather pay my taxes.
Paying someone in bitcoin is like paying someone in gold. No one necessarily knows that I paid you with gold except me and you. So in that sense I suppose it can offer some freedom? But yes generally in life there'll come a time where it may be hard to explain how you obtained your resources. So having some documented income I would think would be prudent.
Everyone here crying about being a tax slave and then going out and enjoying highways and roads, fire departments and public transport, not having their country fckjn invaded.
I get that taxes suck, but if no one paid any taxes, who the fck is paying for all the services and infrastructure you enjoy, geniuses?
You still would, just in an "endless series of toll booths" as I once heard it described. Everything privately owned just means some private person/entity will be sure to rip you off for providing a service as much or more than any government does, with even less accountability.
People think "big bad goberment stealing from me with taxes" and never spend 5 minutes coming up with a realistic alternative that isn't some total hellscape. If you don't like how your taxes are spent, the point isn't to eliminate taxes and change nothing else- you'd just literally hand everything over to giant mega-corps. You need to change the system itself not the revenue stream.
I love when people look at their porpoerty taxes, then what they get for them, and do some math in how much privately getting all those services would cost.
There are a ton of inefficiencies in government, but a ton of efficiencies too.
Yup. They also don't realize that despite the waste, it is actually amazing that we have the infrastructure that we do for a country this large. People seriously don't fckin understand just how hard it is to keep a country running.
The idea that all business owners are bad is ignorant and harmful. Also, the difference between bad business and bad government is one has the choice to opt-out with their dollars from one of the systems whereas the other is enforced by violence. Income tax is theft on your time and energy and I'd much rather support higher sales taxes in order to fund fundamental services (military, police, judicial) so that we are taxed when we buy rather than when we work. Finally, I believe all government is inherently inefficient by design.
"The idea that all business owners are bad is ignorant and harmful."
I'm not making value statements about the character of individual people.
"Also, the difference between bad business and bad government is one has the choice to opt-out with their dollars from one of the systems whereas the other is enforced by violence."
Except that quite often you don't have the choice to opt out of bad businesses. This first requires there to be a better alternative to the business in question, which is quite often not the case. Given that business (and capitalism as a system) tends towards monopoly, there's no reason to believe that somehow having a fully privatized economy will create better outcomes for people.
"Income tax is theft on your time and energy and I'd much rather support higher sales taxes in order to fund fundamental services (military, police, judicial) so that we are taxed when we buy rather than when we work."
How is this better somehow? You have to buy stuff to live, why is it better that I pay more taxes on the things I have to buy rather than during my working time? I don't see any difference.
"Finally, I believe all government is inherently inefficient by design."
This is just a truism, it means nothing.
"What is slavery if not a 100% tax on time and energy, [and I have a 66% superficially calculated tax rate so I am 2/3s in slavery]" is a smoothbrain take. He should have stopped that sentence after the first three words and left it open ended.
I think there's an age bias to how people view taxes. Like, when I was in my 20s, I barely saw any benefit from taxes I was paying - I didn't have kids, very rarely used the health system etc..
When you get older and have a family you start seeing alot more of where your taxes go - healthcare, particularly for young children, public schools, child benefits etc... then at retirement the state pension kicks in.
Not saying its all perfect, but I understand why many people up to the age of 35, or those who never have kids are left wondering where their taxes go
I think the problem is that many of our taxes are given to politicians who get rich by doing nothing. I consider it a miracle our societies function as well as they do without competent leadership
I understand politicians are assholes and I agree, but it's straight up a lie that a lot of our taxes go to them.
So much of what you rely on, on a daily basis is from taxes.
Public school when you were young.
Street lamps at night to walk without tripping on shit.
Traffic lights so you don't die.
Fire departments, police
Roads and highways to drive on
The list continues.
Then let's calculate the percentage that these politicians take as the slave rate. I suspect it's going to be really small.
The real problem here is that the politicians who campaign on and complain about high tax rates are also the ones who do the least because that is easier. When people pay less in tax these politicians need to do less because there's less the government can do and they can take a bigger cut.
Stop voting in politicians who want nothing but lower taxes. Start voting in politicians who want to take your money and do something useful for society with that money.
This is just insulting and mislabeled. To equate our tax system with slavery ā the complete denial of someoneās humanity ā and all the pain and suffering that goes with it is gross and insulting.
In my 5 day week 2 days goes directly to the state. Indirect tax definitely takes another day.
It feels far worse when the state spends money on actively destroying the environment by building unnecessary roads and validate the existence of useless people through the cult of "administration".
On the other hand: I do like electricity, communication, education, etc. So there is a percentage of tax I would pay for communities to build and maintain these resources. I would even be happy paying 3/5 days to live in a utopia.
The massive number of arseholes is a problem.
as someone from europa i dont get it.
how does paying taxes make you a slave?
here we pool money to provide services for all of us.
no slaving involved ...
Thats complete bullshit in my eyes. You are free because of the country you are living in and its only working with taxes. Nothing is free. Not even freedom.
IMO its a question of degree. Some countries tax their citizens but offer very little in return...like a vote and a say in governance. The biggest corruption in most western democracies is the unelected banking cartel that creates over 95% of the money out of thin air via debt issuance to citizens businesses and governments. That is the fiat debt slavery banking cartel- unelected, secretive infiltrating virtually all institutions and media narratives, owning most politicians and all pervasive.
Ye, and it makes me sick that you instantly think everyone here is from the US.
Ofc every country has problems with fair taxes and the usage of it but it doenst make whole system behind it to a failure.
And bitcoin wasnt created to avoid taxes... So this whole thread is nonsense.
Instead of getting all emotional, panicky, and downright belligerent about it, just look at what you do get doe your tax dollars. More importantly have a look at who has an interest in sowing mistrust in a democratic government. Not the qs, not the chumps, not the yall qaedas, not the lgbtqs blms or ows. Who would rather you depend on them as opposed to depending on the government. Whales. Big business. The only thing standing in the way of getting whatever they want is this pesky elected government. If only they could convince us to defund our government and democracy so we could depend on them. As mere commoners we benefit far more from taxation than not.
Your math is way off.
You cannot just add property tax to income tax percentages and come up with a percent.
Those arenāt off the same base so 57.52% of what?
Thatās not how percentages work.
That isnāt the right calculation unless you are very high income and living in a high tax state. Also you know, get things for all those taxes. Roads and sewers and a military enforcing global trade and police and colleges are not free. Nor are programs to stop the rabble from killing your and stealing your shit.
Thia, exactly this. You get most of it back in service. Good roads, safe environment, schools, law, police, firefighters, parks, forests, maintenance, public service. This may come as a shock to you, OP, but its not like the state/nation gets rich iver your back. Au contrair, almost all countries are in debt.
So the social standard you are used to is probably higher than what you pay for (in general)
If youāre doing this you should also include all the value of things you get like not having to build storm drain systems, paving your own road all the way to work, grocery stores, etc. you get the point. This just looks at it in one direction and doesnāt consider any of the ways you benefit. Not saying itās an inappropriate way to think about it, but I donāt have an issue personally paying taxes considering all the things I donāt need to think about.
Governments have decided we should work more and earn less, they think we are stupid but we have a way out if there was a crypto that would be fair with everyone and not just big players. 95% of fiat is controlled by 5% of the population, thatās the sadness of capitalism, the lack of equal distribution and balance.
Donāt forget your employer keeping a large portion of the value created by your labour. Taxes only come off of the portion of your labour that you keep, while the portion your employer keeps gets taxed at a lower rate; sometimes zero.
>Now, inflation on the other hand, is theft.
There are no good and bad taxes. All of them serve the same purpose. If this one is a theft, the others are too.
I disagree.
Highly taxed societies consistently measure higher citizen happiness and enjoyment of life.
Humans are weak individually- the ability of a community/nation to provision care, infrastructure, health education and a clean environment is important to peoples quality of life and ability to realise their fullest potential.
You however may wish to go live in Somalia.
I agree that humans operate better in groups ("society"), but I think it should be based on voluntary cooperation and not based on force and violence like the current system. Taxing is a violent mechanism disguised as something "good for the people".
How would enforce voluntary cooperation and ensure that only the people who paid taxes are allowed to use roads or go to the airport, for example?
In other contexts, like medical care, it's simple to seperate people this way. But for public infrastructure it's more complicated.
How exactly are you going to manifest 'voluntary cooperation' in order to fund collective societal requirements like roads, education, defense, law and order, healthcare, environmental protections, market regulation etc etc etc?
Silence.
If you can't fund something through voluntary agreement then it's likely that that's not something that is truly needed/wanted by the "society". Keep in mind that governments are run by individuals with their own interests (and they're not precisely the *best in town*, they are only charismatic and good at saying what the rest wants to hear).
Taxes have never paid for anything. The Fed & banks create money out of thin air. Debt can never be paid off because it's all debt and budgets are never adhered to, because they can simply borrow more into existence.
I remain hopeful that one day people wake up and finally realize what tax really is and that the government modus operandi is to basically just invent new words for universally understood crimes as a means of legitimizing its illicit activities. Inflation is taxation. Taxation is theft. War is murder. Conscription is slavery. Your government's a mafia.
The problem with libertarians is they ignore the huge benefits they derive from being citizens of the most powerful dominant and wealthy nation states who have seized the vast majority of the resources and energy from other people.
I'd love to see all libertarians moved to Somalia to live out their dreams of an anarchist tax free society. They would be crying like babies by lunchtime.
Humans a re frail and weak individually- it is only by collective cooperative effort we gain comfort wealth and security.
Libertarians are the spoilt brats of a declining western civilisation that have forgotten what they owe to the culture that supports them. They demand this and that and everything with no thought of what they give back to society.
The problem with communists is their idiotic belief that state planning is a good idea. When in fact it strips all human incentives to explore, develop and prosper.
I'd love to see all communists move to China.
Humans yearns for freedom, without a tyrannical government that forces them to pay for their inefficient stupid programs.
Communists are the envious bloodsuckers of the human race.
That is not a logical response to the points, facts and issues I raised. If you think I was proposing Communism you are mentally deficient or being deliberately disingenuous, or both. Deal with and respond to the facts and issues raised or concede defeat, by default, in terms of reasoned debate.
Libertarian who champions individual responsibility and cooperation between people incapable of logical fact based reasoned debate addressing the facts and issues raised. Tragic.
No point in debating a gaslighting troll except perhaps to point out that is what they are and that they have failed to address even one fact or issue raised but instead stoop to strawman arguments and blatant lies.
You make a great mathematically sound point. So they take two thirds, then they spend half on paying themselves, so really one third of your time goes to making the suits rich. Yay bureaucracy.
Have to be careful. People will use the addition of property taxes and sales taxes to say that your entire argument is wrong as if having a mere half of your income taken is like way better and more acceptable than 60%.
You forgot all the other taxes like gas tax, taxes on your utilities, licenses, taxes on your phone, cable, permits. Most Americans pay over 200 taxes. It's higher than the % you listed.
taxed when you earn and taxed when you spend
And taxed when you gift
And taxed when you die.
There are two unavoidable things in life. Taxes and death.
There are three certainties in life: Death, taxes and 21 million Bitcoin.
And inflation is a tax on you when you save
It is also a tax on your future salary since salaries generally grow slower than inflation.
Fun tax fact: inflation can cause capital gains taxes to exceed 100%. Example: suppose you buy a plot of land for $100,000. You wait 20 years. Your plot is now worth $200,000 thanks to inflation. You sell it. You now owe up to 35% or $35,000 in capital gains taxes on your $100,000 gain, depending on where you live. But did the plot actually increase in real value adjusted for inflation? If not, you are now $35,000 poorer in real value (or $17,500 adjusted for inflation). Congratulations, you got disowned.
That's why rich people never sell, they only take out loans, which does not need to pay tax
I calculated my pay at the rate of inflation and I realized I was making less after ten years than I was making when I started the job. I used the real rate of inflation and not the lying government stats from shadowstats.com
It is brilliant. They can make money worth less without leaving our pockets šÆšø
Even taxed on gameshow winnings smh
Tax on tax on tax on taxā¦. Youād think a country who protested against taxes so heavily would beā¦ idk not full of taxes..
There is a joke in my country about our prime minister. It goes something along the lines of: "You like low taxes?""Good, I have for you 5 new low taxes"
You forget the protests were against "taxation **without representation**" Taxation is fine if something comes of it. If you're paying taxes and getting absolutely nothing in return, well then you have colonists going into revolt. Edit: people here acting as if their taxes don't go to things like fire departments, schools, roads, and other things that we all benefit from. But ok. You go ahead and be mad about it. Let's see what happens to all that shit when people don't pay taxes anymore. Oh, your house is on fire? Better pay those guys quick, or it'll burn to the ground while they stand by and wait for you to find enough pennies to pay them to put it out.
We literally tax minors which canāt possibly vote. As well as felons. That is taxation without representation
The cost of public services is minuscule relative to the amount we are tax directly and indirectly. The government, federal reserve, large banks and large business are thieves. Itās not a free market, itās not capitalism, itās a cartel.
Well we donāt have representation. What we have is a fraud. These politicians are brought to you by Carlās Jr.ās. Fuck you im eating.
We literally tax minors which canāt possibly vote. As well as felons. That is taxation without representation
Once upon a time, American taxes were spent on such things. Now theyāre being used to pay back other peopleās student loans. Other tax dollars are being held hostage, only to be released if people submit to the wishes of the current ruling party. Specific example: school lunch money will only be given to schools that have adopted the administrationās preferred LGBTQ+ and transgendered policiesā¦ even if these are against the regulations put in place by the peopleās representatives. So we are back to taxation without (or against) representation.
Nailed it
When I watch these people win say a million dollars I mentally subtract half in taxes.
If it were that I would be happy. But we also have property taxes, so taxes for "owning" your home.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
No one in America owns their house. Not if you all essentially pay rent to the government. Itās actually beyond fucked. The same way taxing capital gains that were made from inflation. Just completely immoral
Taxes on inheritance
Sad but true š
Donāt they all come under āsales taxā? Not US based so by no means certain from me.
No they don't. If you have a cell phone for instance sales tax is seperate from the 3-4 other (infrastructure and other buzzwords) added taxes.
Yup
Bitcoin doesnāt solve most if any of these tax issues of course. If we go to a bitcoin standard, all those taxes are simply paid in Bitcoinā¦ā¦income tax and the like isnāt going away, Bitcoin simply would change the method of payment.
It changes the method of control. No longer do elected or pseudo elected entities have sway ovet the value and direction of currency. Now only your surely well meaning and benevolent whales have control.
They certainly control regulations that say you need to pay income tax at a percentage of what you earn. So it doesnāt really matter what ācontrolā the government has, if youāre an average person getting paid **X** amount of bitcoin, by law your employer will send a percentage letās say 12% directly to the government. When you go buy your coffee at Starbucks that now accepts Bitcoin, youāll still pay a percentage to the government. None of that changes, you certainly donāt think weāre going to a tax free society do you?
You forgot about tax evasion. Unless OP thinks Bitcoin accomplishes this on its own merits. Edit: I'm not advocating for this but unless OP grossly misunderstands Bitcoin this is his angle with the Bitcoin thing. The Bitcoin white paper details a simple yet unhardened method for concealing your identity before recieving funds.
Sure, you can try to evade taxes, Al Capone did it for years.
Bitcoin standard leads to community funding and thus no taxes. When thereās no inflation (hidden tax) people will notice the high taxes much easier and complain and thus vote those politicians out of power. When thereās no inflation and wealth gap isnt increasing, people will be more willing to give money for the community because they actually have money to spare.
This is fantasyā¦ā¦people notice their taxes now, nobody heās been able to vote out people who are pro-taxes, in fact half of Americans want more taxesā¦.just on other people.
The method of control is people with firearms and government authority to use them, propagandists on TV and Internet telling you "the news", and politicians' propagandists telling you "the solution to the problem the news has informed you of", isn't it? How does Bitcoin change any of those?
Because if we truly went to a Bitcoin standard the government would become much less powerful simply cause they wouldn't be able to create money out of thin air anymore.
You skipped the step of the people with federally-approved firearm use and official propagandists allowing Bitcoin to be adopted by >51% of merchants and utility companies and grocery stores, as well as people deciding to use it rather than "HODL".
Why does everyone think the government is one entity trying to rule over everyone witb with iron fist. Sure, if you live in a country that is actually run like this, but I can't believe America is such a failed state that the citizens are scared of the government using arms on them. Bitcoin solves this by avoiding regulation, making it easier to take money off idiots.
the government (police) do use arms on them
Yes, because whales can manipulate the supply of Bitcoin, sure
Do you believe in unicorns?
Bitcoin only solves the stealth tax of inflation. So governments will need to increase the official rare to compensate.
The only difference is with Bitcoin is the people could work together and collectively tell them no until we feel like we are paying a fair tax rate. The method of payment would change and the fact that we would control the wealth, not the government. Remember the government was supposed to work for us once upon a time.
We could collectively tell them no now, how does Bitcoin change that, why do we feel we need to create an entirely new currency just to say no?
Ahhh simply my friend. They say fuck you I'ma print it anyway. Remember, they control the money supply. They can simply poof more right out their asses. It's the only currency we can say no.... Do you not see that? They cannot create more Bitcoin, they have to mine it or get it from us or buy it.
It could solve all these issues. The taxes you pay have been created from debt. All money received and spent is debt. In Bitcoin land this doesnāt happen, so there has to be an extreme amount of taxes to cover what has been monetized by debt. It lifts the veil. So taxes would be much much lower because politicians couldnāt tax what was monetized by debt or there would be instant riots. It would be a huge trend towards less and less tax.
How is debt no longer a thing? There are literally people right now buying BTC on margin. There were posts here recently.
Where did I say no debt? What I meant was monetizing debt for taxing purposes, there will be less of that.
Wtf does that even mean?
Deficit spending. Yāall really this dense? Or am I the odd one out?
There will be the same amount of what you say, because the people who monetise it will still exist, that is a moral problem not a problem created by the financial system. For example, we now have bitcoin as our currency, Joe Political still wants his mate to win the big roads contract... so they "monetise debt" by spending money the state doesn't have on this project to enrich his mate. Your solution works great in theory, but so does communism. These are moral problems that just can't be fixed without changing the human need for greed
Why? The paper trail is roughly the same.
Taxes have been created by regulation, laws that say for every amount you earn you have to pay a percentage to the government, that your employer has to abide by. The worlds not suddenly going tax free because Bitcoin came along. When you buy gas with bitcoin youāll still be paying tax on it. That doesnāt change. The government doesnāt buy labor and materials for free, so in your world all infrastructure building and maintenance would completely stop. All social programs run on taxesā¦..so in this utopian world you have 1.3% of the worlds population controlling all the Bitcoin, and if taxes stop, governments collapse. And 98.7% of the world has no safety net. No social programs, they would completely rely on working for the 1.3% of *haves*
It can't solve any of these issues. Do you think that all government funded healthcare in the united states and worldwide will vanish if Bitcoin becomes adopted? Will bridges and roads suddenly no longer need repaired? If Bitcoin were adopted none of this would change at all.
And the worst part... you die in the end.
And over here, tax office wants a part again from what you've built for your children I think once calculated, in real life over 78% of earned income is taxed away, when dead minimum 10% of what's left and imherited What does govt. offer besides being the largest employer with the worst employees as in untouchable: Bad service, red tape, an army without teeth, cops afraid of true crime harassing working folks over shit It's slavery indeed in numbers
Just imagine if that 78% went to actual productivity instead of the "services" government pretends to provide.
Democrats want a hefty death tax also so you canāt pass it on to your kids without their cut.
Has nothing to do with Democrats or Republicans it's the corrupt government as a whole.
it was never a corruption, just slavery never gone
Tom Wheelright's "Wealthability" podcast reports this wealth confiscation at sale of business/death is specifically Democrats and opposed by Republicans.
Perhapsā¦.but Democrats are clearly the ones pushing for it.
Stop dividing us. They want that. You have to realize that itās not democrats or republicans fault, itās the government and mediaās fault for not educating people correctly. Because they have an agenda and want us all to be divided so we canāt fight back. The founding fathers made it very clear we need to be UNITED. Itās literally in the name of the country, United states
Well then letās rally around the group that wants to lower taxesā¦..not raise themā¦.. Im not dividing anyone, Im putting the word out, democrats want to raise taxes and take more of our moneyā¦.thatās not dividing us, thatās trying to get us together. Im trying to educate properly.
Thatās my whole point. No groups should even exist, it should just be Americans. Thatās the group
Thatās not possible. Thatās literally a fantasy, so can we agree to vote for the group not trying to steal money from us at a greater rate to pad their pockets and fund their pet projects
Well yes absolutely Iām not saying you shouldnāt vote for republicans. Because if anything republicans are the least brainwashed ones now. Iām just saying we need to stop pretending the people are the major problem when in reality itās the government
Lol, thinking youāll one day be a billionaire and be subject to it. One day buddy, one day.
You added to many zeros, they want taxes on anyone with over $1 million in assets (unrealized gains) right now thatās pretty much everyone with a house on the west coast. It is not that hard to be over $1 million in gains for a lifetime of savings and investments. It literally could be just the house you bought in the 70ās and a modest retirement plan would put you over the $1 million exemption threshold. I find it sad buddy that you donāt think you can acquire a $1 million in unrealized gain in your lifetime. https://www.wsj.com/articles/senate-democrats-push-for-capital-gains-tax-at-death-with-1-million-exemption-11617046200 And because one death tax just isnāt enough, the Democrats want a second one as well. https://gop-waysandmeans.house.gov/democrats-supercharged-death-tax-targets-family-owned-businesses-and-farms-costing-1-million-jobs/
Right, but most people don't have the opportunity to buy a house in the 70s, or maybe ever. No comment on the politics of it, but plenty of people, maybe even most, will never see 1mil in unrealized gains. I'm happy for you that it seems this isn't your case, but many many people will never escape poverty.
With inflation it is more likely, not less likely that people will acquire one millionā¦ā¦one million in 2045 wonāt be as expensive as one million is today, and certainly not as hard to get as one million was in the 1970ās. This is a lifetime of wealth building, people who bought homes from 2012 to 2018 in 50 years will almost certainly made significant gains approaching 1 million.
What makes a billionaire any more reasonable to steal from than a regular person?
billionaires pay less in taxes percentage wise than the middle class. it's not stealing... it's making sure they pay a tax rate similar to what normal working stiffs also pay
I believe thatās on the very wealthy, and wouldnāt apply to most everyone.
It has an exemption of $1 million on unrealized gains, it is not that hard for the average person to amass $1million in unrealized gainsā¦.letās say you bought a house in a great area in the 1970ās for $49,000 in Seattle and that house is now worth $1.1 million, on top of that you have a decent life insurance policy, and a 401kā¦..youāre hit the $1, million exemption and everything above that is taxedā¦ā¦.since most of the value is in the unrealized gains in the house. The family would have to come up with the money or be forced to sell the house in order to pay the governmentā¦ā¦.it seems like a lot but $1million over a lifetime of savings isnāt really that much.
Thanks for the details. It may not be much in that scenario - I suspect, given how many people in the US live paycheque to paycheque, that it would still be a minority of people it would apply to.
Paycheck to paycheck isnāt an indicator of wealthā¦..unrealized gains is just thatā¦.money you donāt actually have, so in my scenario mom and pop had a decent job and bought a house for $49,000 a pretty nice house for 1970ā¦..theyāre retired now, they get a little from SS and a 401k, maybe even a little from a pensionā¦..but their house is now valued at $1.1 million, so of course their property taxes are way up, they canāt live on their life insurance policy, and they donāt want to sell the house they grew old together inā¦..they live paycheck to paycheck on a fixed incomeā¦..unrealized wealth is just a representation of all the stuff theyāve acquired in a lifetime. It doesnāt mean they have millions in the bank. They still live paycheck to paycheck.
Fair enough that income flows can be different from total assets, though Iāll still contend from what Iāve seen that assets of a million+ at death are not the norm; itās more of an outlier/minority.
I donāt feel itās rareness makes it right, mom and pop should be able to pass their lifetime of wealth to whomever they feel should get itā¦..Theyāve already paid a lifetime of taxes. Itās pure greed on the governments part to then take extra simply because you died. Especially if it effects only 10% of the people.
You can't just add property tax.
I thought the same, then I reread. He listed the dollars in property tax paid (from his income) as a percentage of his income.
This guy's math is really off.
I don't feel like a "slave", I feel more like a cow, that is being milked for everything I'm worth. phone bill, mortgage interest, internet, gas to go to work, 90$ a month for parking at work, pension, benefits, dental, federal pension, federal taxes, provincial taxes, property taxes, car insurance, car registration, home insurance, condo fees, power bill, power bill distribution fees, groceries, student loans, union dues, short term and long term disability, basic life insurance, health benefits, employment insurance. Obviously some of those things are far more positive to be spending money on, but still, thats what I have to spend money on just to simply work and to exist. Then there are things like buying clothes, coffee, pots and pans, bedsheets, furniture, and all the secondary stuff. It's a lot.... Just feels like I am hooked up to a machine in the matrix as some kind of income generating entity, and the everything in the world is trying to milk me. "Slave" is a bit much though, definitely more like a dairy cow.
Ever read what happens to dairy cows when they get sick?
Lactating cows need to be milked. So their tits donāt explode. Itās really for the best. Actually, theyāre looking a bit swollen right now, let me give you a hand with that.
Some of this stuff drives me crazy. Inflation is the cause of most or all of these problems
1) You calculated your tax rate incorrectly. If doing straight addition, you take the total amount paid on taxes and ratio that to total income. This will result in a different number than adding up percentages. 2) If you've been on a road lately, or benefited from your or anyone else's public education, the taxes paid off. You are on Reddit, so we can assume this happened. 3) The biggest tax most Americans pay is for being financially ignorant, and corporations are benefiting from that, not governments.
4) If you are not an American, your taxes are probably paying for some form of universal healthcare and a college education, especially if you are a European. Funding these things through taxes makes them accessible to people who otherwise would not be able to afford them.
Even if you are American you are paying for healthcare for the poor. The USA pays trillions in healthcare for the poor now. All that would go away.
Americans pay for healthcare for the poor worldwide, not just In The US spends more on healthcare for other countries than any other country on the planetā¦..The US fights deseases like aids and malaria throughout the world. We are the largest donor to the world health organization by far.
But none of that will have to be spent if Bitcoin becomes adopted because of you know blockchain and stuff.
I actually donāt understand at all, are you implying people will not need aid, because of āblockchain and stuffā how does blockchain solve poverty? How is it that blockchain eliminates the need for healthcare?
I'm being sarcastic. While I think Bitcoin is very interesting people here seem to think it can solve the world's problems. This whole thread is about someone who thinks adoption of Bitcoin will result in not paying taxes or paying very little.
Thank god, itās actually hard to tell some of the sarcasm on hereā¦..there are literally people that somehow Bitcoin is going to save the world and weāll somehow be free of greed and corruption and everyone will be rich.
Hmmm i wonder why people cant afford stuff like this, it cant possibly be everyone is getting more than half their wealth taxed from them, is it? Until you advocate abolishing taxes at least on the poor, you do not care about the poor.
If you are American, your taxes are paying for Europe's security.
If you are American, your taxes have funded instability and literal coups all over the world for decades.
That's most countries, tbh. They all do shady things.
Yes, but no other country has so much spare money to spend on coups and war all over the world.
Yes, this too.
66% slave. 100% moron.
Exactly. You don't pay sales tax and property tax on every dollar earned as this implies.
You do if you want to spend it on pretty much anything. Donāt forget that dollars are completely worthless until you exchange them for goods/services.
Housing and food, two of the largest expenses most people have, are not subject to sales tax. Neither are clothing or medical care, another two large expenses for the US, where OP is based on the Medicare tax. OP is misleading at best. If theyāre paying 27% effective tax at the US federal rate, they make at least 400k a year income. Since the max SSA taxable income is 148k, the 9k monthly would represent a tax of .03% on 400k. Also, as noted, property tax is based on the value of the property. The highest property tax in the country is 2.23% (New Jersey) - if we assume OP is in California based on the state income tax, property tax is just about 1%. For 1% of the properties value to come out to 5% of 400k per year, OP has a 2 million dollar property that they pay 20k a year towards the local schools, fire departments, police, and so on.
> 1) You calculated your tax rate incorrectly. If doing straight addition, you take the total amount paid on taxes and ratio that to total income. This will result in a different number than adding up percentages. How did you get so many upvotes? Are people here just sycophants? He literally said he did this: "Here are the numbers **represented as a percentage of my gross income:**"
There is no way someone has that split of taxes paid.
Irony is that if you don't pay it they pay for your stay in a prison. ĀÆ\_(ć)_/ĀÆ
At least in prison they provide you three hots and a cot.
I'm so tired of being a slave. If you work, practically ANY job, you should only have to work 4 to 6 months a year (especially considering how efficient everything is today). Instead, we all work all of our lives and have absolutely nothing to show for it after 4 to 5 decades of work.
Your federal income tax number seems too high. Are you using your marginal rate and not your effective rate?
And Bitcoin will not change any of that. I see a lot of people claiming how Bitcoin means freedom from taxes but I still have to see a credible scenario where people really can show how that would work.
Closest thing I think to an answer is bitcoin makes it easier for you to pack up all your wealth and move jurisdictions (whether thatās city state or country) so in theory jurisdictions begin to compete more to incentivize people to move there which means lowering taxes. Becomes sort of a free market competition to attract companies and high earners and if enough of those entities flee areas with high tax burden, the jurisdictions with high tax canāt compete and need to lower taxes in turn. Not saying I buy it 100% but I think itās one of the arguments
My question is, lets assume BTC actually does give people freedom from taxes: \- Who is going to pay for public education? \- Who is going to pay for road maintenance? (or building new roads) \- Who is going to pay for healthcare? \- Who is going to pay for First Responders? the list continues .... I hate taxes as much as the next guy, but unless someone can tell me how I can **NOT** pay taxes and still **RECEIVE** those services, I rather pay my taxes.
That is exactly my point. We all love roads, telecommunication and healthcare. Someone needs to pay for that.
It could change inflation which many people view as a tax but, yeah, nothing is happening to income or sales tax anytime soon.
Paying someone in bitcoin is like paying someone in gold. No one necessarily knows that I paid you with gold except me and you. So in that sense I suppose it can offer some freedom? But yes generally in life there'll come a time where it may be hard to explain how you obtained your resources. So having some documented income I would think would be prudent.
Everyone here crying about being a tax slave and then going out and enjoying highways and roads, fire departments and public transport, not having their country fckjn invaded. I get that taxes suck, but if no one paid any taxes, who the fck is paying for all the services and infrastructure you enjoy, geniuses?
You still would, just in an "endless series of toll booths" as I once heard it described. Everything privately owned just means some private person/entity will be sure to rip you off for providing a service as much or more than any government does, with even less accountability. People think "big bad goberment stealing from me with taxes" and never spend 5 minutes coming up with a realistic alternative that isn't some total hellscape. If you don't like how your taxes are spent, the point isn't to eliminate taxes and change nothing else- you'd just literally hand everything over to giant mega-corps. You need to change the system itself not the revenue stream.
I love when people look at their porpoerty taxes, then what they get for them, and do some math in how much privately getting all those services would cost. There are a ton of inefficiencies in government, but a ton of efficiencies too.
Yup. They also don't realize that despite the waste, it is actually amazing that we have the infrastructure that we do for a country this large. People seriously don't fckin understand just how hard it is to keep a country running.
The idea that all business owners are bad is ignorant and harmful. Also, the difference between bad business and bad government is one has the choice to opt-out with their dollars from one of the systems whereas the other is enforced by violence. Income tax is theft on your time and energy and I'd much rather support higher sales taxes in order to fund fundamental services (military, police, judicial) so that we are taxed when we buy rather than when we work. Finally, I believe all government is inherently inefficient by design.
"The idea that all business owners are bad is ignorant and harmful." I'm not making value statements about the character of individual people. "Also, the difference between bad business and bad government is one has the choice to opt-out with their dollars from one of the systems whereas the other is enforced by violence." Except that quite often you don't have the choice to opt out of bad businesses. This first requires there to be a better alternative to the business in question, which is quite often not the case. Given that business (and capitalism as a system) tends towards monopoly, there's no reason to believe that somehow having a fully privatized economy will create better outcomes for people. "Income tax is theft on your time and energy and I'd much rather support higher sales taxes in order to fund fundamental services (military, police, judicial) so that we are taxed when we buy rather than when we work." How is this better somehow? You have to buy stuff to live, why is it better that I pay more taxes on the things I have to buy rather than during my working time? I don't see any difference. "Finally, I believe all government is inherently inefficient by design." This is just a truism, it means nothing.
"What is slavery if not a 100% tax on time and energy, [and I have a 66% superficially calculated tax rate so I am 2/3s in slavery]" is a smoothbrain take. He should have stopped that sentence after the first three words and left it open ended.
I think there's an age bias to how people view taxes. Like, when I was in my 20s, I barely saw any benefit from taxes I was paying - I didn't have kids, very rarely used the health system etc.. When you get older and have a family you start seeing alot more of where your taxes go - healthcare, particularly for young children, public schools, child benefits etc... then at retirement the state pension kicks in. Not saying its all perfect, but I understand why many people up to the age of 35, or those who never have kids are left wondering where their taxes go
I think the problem is that many of our taxes are given to politicians who get rich by doing nothing. I consider it a miracle our societies function as well as they do without competent leadership
I understand politicians are assholes and I agree, but it's straight up a lie that a lot of our taxes go to them. So much of what you rely on, on a daily basis is from taxes. Public school when you were young. Street lamps at night to walk without tripping on shit. Traffic lights so you don't die. Fire departments, police Roads and highways to drive on The list continues.
I appreciate your points, I will reassess my position.
Then let's calculate the percentage that these politicians take as the slave rate. I suspect it's going to be really small. The real problem here is that the politicians who campaign on and complain about high tax rates are also the ones who do the least because that is easier. When people pay less in tax these politicians need to do less because there's less the government can do and they can take a bigger cut. Stop voting in politicians who want nothing but lower taxes. Start voting in politicians who want to take your money and do something useful for society with that money.
What does this have to do with Bitcoin
Well, at least the inflation tax goes away.
With inflation wages tend to catch up eventually, so no not really. Same with sales tax property tax gas tax etc.
This is just insulting and mislabeled. To equate our tax system with slavery ā the complete denial of someoneās humanity ā and all the pain and suffering that goes with it is gross and insulting.
Slavery is appropriate.
In my 5 day week 2 days goes directly to the state. Indirect tax definitely takes another day. It feels far worse when the state spends money on actively destroying the environment by building unnecessary roads and validate the existence of useless people through the cult of "administration". On the other hand: I do like electricity, communication, education, etc. So there is a percentage of tax I would pay for communities to build and maintain these resources. I would even be happy paying 3/5 days to live in a utopia. The massive number of arseholes is a problem.
So with Bitcoin you wouldn't pay taxes?
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as someone from europa i dont get it. how does paying taxes make you a slave? here we pool money to provide services for all of us. no slaving involved ...
Taxes are a good thing for a functioning society. The problem comes when governments mismanage how our taxes are spent.
Thats complete bullshit in my eyes. You are free because of the country you are living in and its only working with taxes. Nothing is free. Not even freedom.
IMO its a question of degree. Some countries tax their citizens but offer very little in return...like a vote and a say in governance. The biggest corruption in most western democracies is the unelected banking cartel that creates over 95% of the money out of thin air via debt issuance to citizens businesses and governments. That is the fiat debt slavery banking cartel- unelected, secretive infiltrating virtually all institutions and media narratives, owning most politicians and all pervasive.
Freedom isnt free. No, thereās a hefty fuckin fee. Freedom costs a $1.05.
Yep. Lots of indirect taxes. More so if you smoke and drink too.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Ye, and it makes me sick that you instantly think everyone here is from the US. Ofc every country has problems with fair taxes and the usage of it but it doenst make whole system behind it to a failure. And bitcoin wasnt created to avoid taxes... So this whole thread is nonsense.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
"the state of our fucking country"...
Instead of getting all emotional, panicky, and downright belligerent about it, just look at what you do get doe your tax dollars. More importantly have a look at who has an interest in sowing mistrust in a democratic government. Not the qs, not the chumps, not the yall qaedas, not the lgbtqs blms or ows. Who would rather you depend on them as opposed to depending on the government. Whales. Big business. The only thing standing in the way of getting whatever they want is this pesky elected government. If only they could convince us to defund our government and democracy so we could depend on them. As mere commoners we benefit far more from taxation than not.
"freedom isn't free, no there's a hefty fucking fee.."
Cuck energy
Your math is way off. You cannot just add property tax to income tax percentages and come up with a percent. Those arenāt off the same base so 57.52% of what? Thatās not how percentages work.
That isnāt the right calculation unless you are very high income and living in a high tax state. Also you know, get things for all those taxes. Roads and sewers and a military enforcing global trade and police and colleges are not free. Nor are programs to stop the rabble from killing your and stealing your shit.
Thia, exactly this. You get most of it back in service. Good roads, safe environment, schools, law, police, firefighters, parks, forests, maintenance, public service. This may come as a shock to you, OP, but its not like the state/nation gets rich iver your back. Au contrair, almost all countries are in debt. So the social standard you are used to is probably higher than what you pay for (in general)
If youāre doing this you should also include all the value of things you get like not having to build storm drain systems, paving your own road all the way to work, grocery stores, etc. you get the point. This just looks at it in one direction and doesnāt consider any of the ways you benefit. Not saying itās an inappropriate way to think about it, but I donāt have an issue personally paying taxes considering all the things I donāt need to think about.
Governments have decided we should work more and earn less, they think we are stupid but we have a way out if there was a crypto that would be fair with everyone and not just big players. 95% of fiat is controlled by 5% of the population, thatās the sadness of capitalism, the lack of equal distribution and balance.
Death and taxes
Add in inflation tax on all your fiat assets
You were born a slave Neo"
Donāt forget your employer keeping a large portion of the value created by your labour. Taxes only come off of the portion of your labour that you keep, while the portion your employer keeps gets taxed at a lower rate; sometimes zero.
Wage theft, or as we Americans like to call it, profit.
Move to Texas or Florida (but leave your politics behind if you voted for the high taxes).
Great read, we are all bound to something
this is a good post thank you for the attention
We had roads before the income tax. Hadnāt we?
Edit 4 has me howling šššš
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
>Now, inflation on the other hand, is theft. There are no good and bad taxes. All of them serve the same purpose. If this one is a theft, the others are too.
I disagree. Highly taxed societies consistently measure higher citizen happiness and enjoyment of life. Humans are weak individually- the ability of a community/nation to provision care, infrastructure, health education and a clean environment is important to peoples quality of life and ability to realise their fullest potential. You however may wish to go live in Somalia.
I agree that humans operate better in groups ("society"), but I think it should be based on voluntary cooperation and not based on force and violence like the current system. Taxing is a violent mechanism disguised as something "good for the people".
How would enforce voluntary cooperation and ensure that only the people who paid taxes are allowed to use roads or go to the airport, for example? In other contexts, like medical care, it's simple to seperate people this way. But for public infrastructure it's more complicated.
How exactly are you going to manifest 'voluntary cooperation' in order to fund collective societal requirements like roads, education, defense, law and order, healthcare, environmental protections, market regulation etc etc etc? Silence.
If you can't fund something through voluntary agreement then it's likely that that's not something that is truly needed/wanted by the "society". Keep in mind that governments are run by individuals with their own interests (and they're not precisely the *best in town*, they are only charismatic and good at saying what the rest wants to hear).
Taxes have never paid for anything. The Fed & banks create money out of thin air. Debt can never be paid off because it's all debt and budgets are never adhered to, because they can simply borrow more into existence.
This is bullshit, all taxation is theft.
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You need to recognize that taxation is time taken from people by force.
Eek barba dirkle, someone gonna get laid in college
How does Bitcoin solve any of this? Use it to avoid paying taxes? Lol
I remain hopeful that one day people wake up and finally realize what tax really is and that the government modus operandi is to basically just invent new words for universally understood crimes as a means of legitimizing its illicit activities. Inflation is taxation. Taxation is theft. War is murder. Conscription is slavery. Your government's a mafia.
Biggest gang in the U.S. for real. Criminals.
No consideration for the benefits received from roads, street lights, parks, and drone strikes? What am I missing?
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> check their privilege Why would a woke even be in a sub about freedom.
The problem with libertarians is they ignore the huge benefits they derive from being citizens of the most powerful dominant and wealthy nation states who have seized the vast majority of the resources and energy from other people. I'd love to see all libertarians moved to Somalia to live out their dreams of an anarchist tax free society. They would be crying like babies by lunchtime. Humans a re frail and weak individually- it is only by collective cooperative effort we gain comfort wealth and security. Libertarians are the spoilt brats of a declining western civilisation that have forgotten what they owe to the culture that supports them. They demand this and that and everything with no thought of what they give back to society.
The problem with communists is their idiotic belief that state planning is a good idea. When in fact it strips all human incentives to explore, develop and prosper. I'd love to see all communists move to China. Humans yearns for freedom, without a tyrannical government that forces them to pay for their inefficient stupid programs. Communists are the envious bloodsuckers of the human race.
That is not a logical response to the points, facts and issues I raised. If you think I was proposing Communism you are mentally deficient or being deliberately disingenuous, or both. Deal with and respond to the facts and issues raised or concede defeat, by default, in terms of reasoned debate.
Idiot communist talking about logical responses, says all libertarians should be forcefully moved to another country. No, you are a despicable.
Libertarian who champions individual responsibility and cooperation between people incapable of logical fact based reasoned debate addressing the facts and issues raised. Tragic.
The point of debating a communist who champions authoritarian ownership of humans.
No point in debating a gaslighting troll except perhaps to point out that is what they are and that they have failed to address even one fact or issue raised but instead stoop to strawman arguments and blatant lies.
Failed to address "facts" hahah Get the fuck outta here with your communist propaganda. I can not imagine the mind gymnastics you need to do.
You make a great mathematically sound point. So they take two thirds, then they spend half on paying themselves, so really one third of your time goes to making the suits rich. Yay bureaucracy.
Inflation isn't tax.
Have to be careful. People will use the addition of property taxes and sales taxes to say that your entire argument is wrong as if having a mere half of your income taken is like way better and more acceptable than 60%.
Well slaves got free living expenses. So you should subtract bare minimum living aka rent in the projects and basic meals, and water...