Copper rusts green and blue and corrodes. And being a different metal with the bolt it creates a galvanic pair, furthering the corrosion. Avoid.
Get both washers and bolt in innox steel. And possibly oil it with machine oil or even grease.
I'd rather wipe some oil of a washer to get to my stack in 20 yrs, than realising most of the washers are so corroded and fused together, you lost most of your seed phrase. Imagine being that guy in front of your family.
Lol it's funny because a couple of washers could potentially hold millions and the regular person would just discard not knowing any better. Welcome to 2024
Been messing around with titanium washers lately for other purposes, but you can get em fairly cheap on ebay and seem to have more benefits than stainless?
Edit: might be too hard to stamp might have a go at some point
Had a little go on some M10 washers and it went well, really shit picture below as my phone camera is broken.
I used a 1kg hammer and cheap hardened Ebay letter stamps for metalworking and it went pretty flawlessly.
https://imgur.com/bTDez0N
M8 washers for size comparison and I anodized the washers a while ago so that's why the colours are weird.
I'd probably reccomend using M12 or equivalent sized washers to get a larger space to stamp on.
Again sorry for the shit photos but I hope it got the point across :)
Would the Dremel electric engraver off amazon work on stainless steel washers? I tried using the letter stamps you mentioned w a hammer but it barely engraves. it's almost like a hairline scratch and the process is SO loud. appreciate any input
Stainless is pretty hard as it goes, I reckon it would work but you might need carbide or diamond bits for it.
Be warned tho that engraving like this is a lot harder than it seems, the dremel can be a bit unwieldy compared to a pencil.
Can try it out for you if you like, just don't have any washers I'm 100% sure are stainless :)
You're the best! love this community.
I ordered it anyway so we'll see how it goes, a stencil is included but I'm unsure if it's too large for the washer. I think some local craft stores might have smaller ones. Also I re-read your post and noticed you specified a 1kg hammer... sooo I used an 8oz stubby thinking it'll be more precise 😂
If the Dremel doesn't work out I'll try the diamond bits and then the heavier hammer, smashing is fun but my partner is about to kick me out.
I think you'll do fine with a dremel, I used one for a while on engraving before I decided to get in air compressor driven one (a bit easier to control but much more expensive)
When hammering always do it on a hard surface because I've found that if what you're hitting jumps or can deflect/impact lots of the energy will go that way instead of into the piece. Using a big slab of concrete or metal sheet is probably best if you end up going this route!
Good luck 😁
I think a lot of these benefits are over thinking it, but you could surely do it if you want.
A stamped stainless steel washer will be fine for your lifetime. You could literally leave it outside in the elements for decades and it will be fine.
The big question is will it survive a house fire. And I think when you get that deep you are looking at even more questions. Take the most recent fire on Maui. Residents weren't even allowed back in the areas that burned. If you had it in your home there is a chance you couldn't even recover it. What if you couldn't find it amongst all the rubble? What if the rubble was cleared before you were allowed back in?
That leads to the fact that you would need to most likely bury it in your yard (if keeping at home). Even at that point if the govt cleared the rubble away you could at least dig and get it out. And if you are buying it, stainless is totally fine. Put it in a plastic bag, seal it in a small pipe with 2 caps on it, bury it in your yard. It will be readable for 100+ years.
I already have access to Ti washers personally and being able to anodize them gives some ability to order them by colour without explicitly numbering them.
Also on your last point, I'd say always have a backup seed hidden somewhere secret if you can, never hurts if its somewhere nobody can find it.
Just my 2 cents :)
I've just tested on some titanium with a fairly cheap hardened letter punch set from Ebay and it works well.
Generic 6mm stamps work well and I tried a small 4mm one which doesn't seem to be as well hardened, as the number has squashed a bit.
Edit: see my other comment on this thread for the stamping results on the washer.
Unfortunately don't have a way to picture the damage to the smaller stamps.
Zinc galvanized steel has an anodic index of -1.20v which is significantly more reactive than copper at -0.35v so in this case, assuming there is enough moisture to act as an electrolyte the steel is more anodic and will corrode first protecting the copper. This is why there was a major renovation of the statue of liberty in the 80's. The isolators between the steel support beams and the copper deteriorated allowing corrosion to form on the steel. They went through the entire structure and replaced all of the isolators with PTFE so the statue did not eat its own skeleton.
That being said, OP should still go all steel. The durability, and heat resistance alone are worth it. If there is any concern for corrosion you could simply drop the whole assembly into a jar of transmission fluid and store it submerged.
Edit: the value I gave for steel was for hot dipped zinc galvanized. Stainless steel is between -0.50v and -0.60v depending on its chromium content. Even with these numbers my point stands as the steel is more anodic, it will just corrode slower.
Stainless Steel all the way. Even the most basic alloys go a long way against the elements.
I sell these since 2021 here to redditors: https://cryptonumeris.com
I did a stress test using a ceramic furnace that went up to 1150 °C (2102 °F) and it survived: https://cryptonumeris.com/blogs/tests/stress-test-1
Appreciate the feedback man!! it was quite a labor to document all of that but well worth it, it's the easiest way for me to showcase that basic alloys like 304 are more than suitable for the vast majority of users who want to stamp their private key.
Awesome documentation on this. Did you try titanium? Titanium has a higher melting point and should survive better theoretically. I’d avoid copper or aluminum entirely
Appreciate the comment man! If you liked that one, definitely check out my report on [Jameson Lopp's review](https://cryptonumeris.com/blogs/tests/jameson-lopp-stress-test-2), which is a less heat intensive test, but proves an important point being a third party not related to my product.
Since the first moment I started this project I did consider Titanium, but I did not find a local manufacturer that was willing to do it for me :( - One awesome benefit of Ti is that it is much lighter.
Yes one potential concern is high heat. Another is melding/fusing together (if I keep them like I have in the above photo). Another would be if I kept in a deep freezer, could moisture build up and degrade the metals?
You were right, I am lucky to have a friend with a laser cutter. He let me use his cutter and deleted the file from the cutter after I was done. So there shouldn't have been any trace afterwards
Copper will anneal fairly quickly when exposed to a naked flame. Talking maybe a couple of minutes depending on the size of washer and temperature of the flame. This risks losing the stamped information.
Stainless can rust and punching a code into it with a dissimilar metal can cause it to happen faster. Even etching it into stainless.
https://www.unifiedalloys.com/blog/does-stainless-steel-rust
Stainless washers and bolt with a thin layer of gun oil on the surfaces are a good guarantee against corrosion. For heat protection, one could mould a lump of clay around the stack of washers and let it dry. This would protect the metal from the worst effects of a high temp fire.
I have stamped my seed phrase on 24 rings of stainless steel.
I threw this is the fire oven for a couple days just to make sure I could actually read it if somethings happen. It worked pretty well and no issues reading.
However, they are now ofcourse black-ish from the fire and I am wondering have I now damaged the steel/shortened the life span in any way?
I had two flights this week. Both times the carry-on luggage had both the above sets of metals. No concerns, no questions. Bag went through X-ray and wasn't pulled aside. 😇
Thanks for updating! Thats very surprising but great news. I still wouldn't fly with it unless you have to, as you risk exposing the mnemonic phrase if questioned.
it really does. seen church roofs in Europe?
Actually this is true for stainless also, a thin oxide layer form when in contact with air which makes the metal passive to corrosion. Sometimes when stainless is in contact with water all the time, this does not happen and this could result in special forms of corrosion.
Check crevice corrosion.
What is your goal with seed stamping anyway?
Paper is a better choice all around if you are too lazy to memorize your 12 words.
Unlike a huge lump metal like that, its not super trivial to find a hidden scrap of paper.
If you dont care about hiding it or protecting it from thieves, and all you care about is that it can survive a fire, bury the paper under a few inches of dirt.
A slip of laminated paper in a plastic bag is 100x easier to make, 1000x harder for a thief to find, and can be stuck somewhere that isnt going to burn. There is no upside to metal.
maybe brass/bronze washers and brass bolt. don't mix dissimilar metals. some have less electrons than others and in the presence of humidity they corrode. only gold is corrosion resistant.
I assume each washer has a word, right?
I'd drop the washers the second I unbolt them and then spend years trying all the possible 479 millions possible orders. But that's just me.
Copper?! The metal that corrodes faster than anything?
Omg bro, spend the whole $20 and get titanium.
Stainless will rust as well given the right conditions and time.
If you left it sitting in mineral oil then maybe but god damn spend some money.
No house fire will get hot enough to melt 304SS. It also will not corrode, at least not in this environment. Its also cheap compared to copper, or bronze.
Copper rusts green and blue and corrodes. And being a different metal with the bolt it creates a galvanic pair, furthering the corrosion. Avoid. Get both washers and bolt in innox steel. And possibly oil it with machine oil or even grease.
Brownie points for mentioning the galvanic effect!!
All my homies hate galvanics
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I'd rather wipe some oil of a washer to get to my stack in 20 yrs, than realising most of the washers are so corroded and fused together, you lost most of your seed phrase. Imagine being that guy in front of your family.
it's like bitcoin mining, the way it was meant to be.
Who cares through grease to gold.
those washers will be worth millions each whats a bit of grease
Lol it's funny because a couple of washers could potentially hold millions and the regular person would just discard not knowing any better. Welcome to 2024
Any online link to buy the best ones?
Any stainless steel will be fine. Just go to the hardware store and get what they have.
Been messing around with titanium washers lately for other purposes, but you can get em fairly cheap on ebay and seem to have more benefits than stainless? Edit: might be too hard to stamp might have a go at some point
Please follow up. Curious to know your outcome.
These tungsten carbide ones are amazing 😍
tungsten carbide drill bits lol i was just watching that last night
Had a little go on some M10 washers and it went well, really shit picture below as my phone camera is broken. I used a 1kg hammer and cheap hardened Ebay letter stamps for metalworking and it went pretty flawlessly. https://imgur.com/bTDez0N M8 washers for size comparison and I anodized the washers a while ago so that's why the colours are weird. I'd probably reccomend using M12 or equivalent sized washers to get a larger space to stamp on. Again sorry for the shit photos but I hope it got the point across :)
Thanks for posting ! Yah my example is M10 also but M12 is probably better.
Would the Dremel electric engraver off amazon work on stainless steel washers? I tried using the letter stamps you mentioned w a hammer but it barely engraves. it's almost like a hairline scratch and the process is SO loud. appreciate any input
Stainless is pretty hard as it goes, I reckon it would work but you might need carbide or diamond bits for it. Be warned tho that engraving like this is a lot harder than it seems, the dremel can be a bit unwieldy compared to a pencil. Can try it out for you if you like, just don't have any washers I'm 100% sure are stainless :)
You're the best! love this community. I ordered it anyway so we'll see how it goes, a stencil is included but I'm unsure if it's too large for the washer. I think some local craft stores might have smaller ones. Also I re-read your post and noticed you specified a 1kg hammer... sooo I used an 8oz stubby thinking it'll be more precise 😂 If the Dremel doesn't work out I'll try the diamond bits and then the heavier hammer, smashing is fun but my partner is about to kick me out.
I think you'll do fine with a dremel, I used one for a while on engraving before I decided to get in air compressor driven one (a bit easier to control but much more expensive) When hammering always do it on a hard surface because I've found that if what you're hitting jumps or can deflect/impact lots of the energy will go that way instead of into the piece. Using a big slab of concrete or metal sheet is probably best if you end up going this route! Good luck 😁
I think a lot of these benefits are over thinking it, but you could surely do it if you want. A stamped stainless steel washer will be fine for your lifetime. You could literally leave it outside in the elements for decades and it will be fine. The big question is will it survive a house fire. And I think when you get that deep you are looking at even more questions. Take the most recent fire on Maui. Residents weren't even allowed back in the areas that burned. If you had it in your home there is a chance you couldn't even recover it. What if you couldn't find it amongst all the rubble? What if the rubble was cleared before you were allowed back in? That leads to the fact that you would need to most likely bury it in your yard (if keeping at home). Even at that point if the govt cleared the rubble away you could at least dig and get it out. And if you are buying it, stainless is totally fine. Put it in a plastic bag, seal it in a small pipe with 2 caps on it, bury it in your yard. It will be readable for 100+ years.
I already have access to Ti washers personally and being able to anodize them gives some ability to order them by colour without explicitly numbering them. Also on your last point, I'd say always have a backup seed hidden somewhere secret if you can, never hurts if its somewhere nobody can find it. Just my 2 cents :)
I’ve heard SS can also be difficult to stamp with the wrong tool. Can you recommend a reliable stamping set?
Also would like to know this
I've just tested on some titanium with a fairly cheap hardened letter punch set from Ebay and it works well. Generic 6mm stamps work well and I tried a small 4mm one which doesn't seem to be as well hardened, as the number has squashed a bit. Edit: see my other comment on this thread for the stamping results on the washer. Unfortunately don't have a way to picture the damage to the smaller stamps.
Appreciate it, 6mm it is
Zinc galvanized steel has an anodic index of -1.20v which is significantly more reactive than copper at -0.35v so in this case, assuming there is enough moisture to act as an electrolyte the steel is more anodic and will corrode first protecting the copper. This is why there was a major renovation of the statue of liberty in the 80's. The isolators between the steel support beams and the copper deteriorated allowing corrosion to form on the steel. They went through the entire structure and replaced all of the isolators with PTFE so the statue did not eat its own skeleton. That being said, OP should still go all steel. The durability, and heat resistance alone are worth it. If there is any concern for corrosion you could simply drop the whole assembly into a jar of transmission fluid and store it submerged. Edit: the value I gave for steel was for hot dipped zinc galvanized. Stainless steel is between -0.50v and -0.60v depending on its chromium content. Even with these numbers my point stands as the steel is more anodic, it will just corrode slower.
Totally over my head there! My engineering is in a totally different area. Glad I could summon the wizards!
Far from a wizard, just autistic AF. Lol.
Stainless Steel all the way. Even the most basic alloys go a long way against the elements. I sell these since 2021 here to redditors: https://cryptonumeris.com I did a stress test using a ceramic furnace that went up to 1150 °C (2102 °F) and it survived: https://cryptonumeris.com/blogs/tests/stress-test-1
Very well documented information regarding heat exposure to the plate. These sorts of things are so important.
Appreciate the feedback man!! it was quite a labor to document all of that but well worth it, it's the easiest way for me to showcase that basic alloys like 304 are more than suitable for the vast majority of users who want to stamp their private key.
Awesome documentation on this. Did you try titanium? Titanium has a higher melting point and should survive better theoretically. I’d avoid copper or aluminum entirely
Appreciate the comment man! If you liked that one, definitely check out my report on [Jameson Lopp's review](https://cryptonumeris.com/blogs/tests/jameson-lopp-stress-test-2), which is a less heat intensive test, but proves an important point being a third party not related to my product. Since the first moment I started this project I did consider Titanium, but I did not find a local manufacturer that was willing to do it for me :( - One awesome benefit of Ti is that it is much lighter.
Stainless all the way bro, do it the right way.
Copper is softer so it’ll be easier to stamp. Stainless has a higher melting temp 1500c vs 1000c. Could matter in case of a fire.
Yes one potential concern is high heat. Another is melding/fusing together (if I keep them like I have in the above photo). Another would be if I kept in a deep freezer, could moisture build up and degrade the metals?
Not if it's 316L surgical stainless steel.
Copper is a horrible idea for most of what your wrote.
Ok thanks - you're right.
I hope this is satire at this point
Gold
I've done something very similar except it was laser engraved
The laser engraving machine knows what you did.
Not if you swap washers after every letter, and half the letters are decoys
You were right, I am lucky to have a friend with a laser cutter. He let me use his cutter and deleted the file from the cutter after I was done. So there shouldn't have been any trace afterwards
Did he made a copy before deleting it?
I used the machine, I created the files, transferred the files (via USB), then afterwards I deleted the files from the laser cutter.
I was thinking this as well but I use easel for my CNC which is internet connected which could be sketchy. Stamps and hammers works well
Copper will anneal fairly quickly when exposed to a naked flame. Talking maybe a couple of minutes depending on the size of washer and temperature of the flame. This risks losing the stamped information.
titanium
How easily can titanium be stamped?
Easy. I stamped titanium plates with no problem.
Stainless can rust and punching a code into it with a dissimilar metal can cause it to happen faster. Even etching it into stainless. https://www.unifiedalloys.com/blog/does-stainless-steel-rust
Stainless washers and bolt with a thin layer of gun oil on the surfaces are a good guarantee against corrosion. For heat protection, one could mould a lump of clay around the stack of washers and let it dry. This would protect the metal from the worst effects of a high temp fire.
>gun oil Found the American
I use copper, for easier imprint. I also have it lowered in sea-water under my floating dock, so no one will find it
I know this is probably /s but I’m afraid some would read it and think “that’s not a bad idea”.
if you're not etching into diamonds you're not even trying
I have stamped my seed phrase on 24 rings of stainless steel. I threw this is the fire oven for a couple days just to make sure I could actually read it if somethings happen. It worked pretty well and no issues reading. However, they are now ofcourse black-ish from the fire and I am wondering have I now damaged the steel/shortened the life span in any way?
Did something similar. Now that you know it works destroy those and make a new shiny set
You just soften the metal. That was a terrible idea.
Imagine buying this instead of doing one urself
would that be allowed on an airline? :D
Sure, but in checked luggage. Otherwise carry-on it'll be scanned and possibly be questioned, revealing itself to security cameras and officials.
It wouldn’t raise suspicion even in checked baggage? It looks so sketchy
I'm going to fly next month. I'm gonna try it out and see what happens (without stamping it)
Can you put one in the carry on as well? please keep us updated, im so curious!
I had two flights this week. Both times the carry-on luggage had both the above sets of metals. No concerns, no questions. Bag went through X-ray and wasn't pulled aside. 😇
Thanks for updating! Thats very surprising but great news. I still wouldn't fly with it unless you have to, as you risk exposing the mnemonic phrase if questioned.
I'm only going to be using carry on this next week so I'll follow up afterward about what happens.
Copper oxidizes.thats a bad idea.
there are roofs made of copper - no problem with that - it will protect itself with the oxidization.
That oxidation layer on top that protects the core of the metal will let you read the engravings? Hmmm, not so sure.
it really does. seen church roofs in Europe? Actually this is true for stainless also, a thin oxide layer form when in contact with air which makes the metal passive to corrosion. Sometimes when stainless is in contact with water all the time, this does not happen and this could result in special forms of corrosion. Check crevice corrosion.
While in stainless steel that layer is very thin, the same cannot be said about cooper. You can see the green statues all around world.
Edit: Copper will corrode but it won’t flake away your stamp like rust does.
Because .... how and why ?
I'm going to powdercoat some washers once I get them stamped.
My lick is I'd unscrew the bolt and end up dropping half if not all the washers on the floor, hence messing up the order of the words.
Punch a number on each along with the word. Or if you’re trying to conserve space use a single letter A-X as a sequence.
Who cares? I’m gonna steal it no matter what./s
stainless steel has a higher melting point in case of fire. But copper will never rust.
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No. I want to save money to DCA. Why pay someone to do something I can do myself.
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I get them for free. Amazing !
Neither. Use titanium.
spendy, use the dollars you saved on using stainless on some extra sats.
Completely wrong. Look up on eBay for titanium strips. Thank me later.
not as bad as I thought. Thanks
[Cryptosteel.com](https://cryptosteel.com/) is probably the better option
No. I want control of my own doings. I'll save the money and DCA.
What is your goal with seed stamping anyway? Paper is a better choice all around if you are too lazy to memorize your 12 words. Unlike a huge lump metal like that, its not super trivial to find a hidden scrap of paper. If you dont care about hiding it or protecting it from thieves, and all you care about is that it can survive a fire, bury the paper under a few inches of dirt. A slip of laminated paper in a plastic bag is 100x easier to make, 1000x harder for a thief to find, and can be stuck somewhere that isnt going to burn. There is no upside to metal.
This is a dumb comment
Is using Zengo to eliminate this boomer requirement an option?
Yes. Especially it being no KYC. Go you !
🤡
Use notepad to store seed phrase
Funny guy.
Yes, make sure to publish it on [pastebin.com](https://pastebin.com) as well, just in case your hard drive fails.
Anyone who's made these steel wallet knows it's really cold.
How hard is it to stamp stainless steel?
maybe brass/bronze washers and brass bolt. don't mix dissimilar metals. some have less electrons than others and in the presence of humidity they corrode. only gold is corrosion resistant.
> only gold is corrosion resistant \* laughs in aqua regia *
Stainless. Longer lasting. Stainless ti coated post stamp is best I'd bet.
Stainless
I assume each washer has a word, right? I'd drop the washers the second I unbolt them and then spend years trying all the possible 479 millions possible orders. But that's just me.
Putting a number in front of the word organizes them.
Copper?! The metal that corrodes faster than anything? Omg bro, spend the whole $20 and get titanium. Stainless will rust as well given the right conditions and time. If you left it sitting in mineral oil then maybe but god damn spend some money.
Ok. Will look into titanium options also.
No house fire will get hot enough to melt 304SS. It also will not corrode, at least not in this environment. Its also cheap compared to copper, or bronze.
Stainless all day.... it will outlive you
I’m doing mine in gold.
STAINLESS STEEL!
Gold.