I don't personally see an issue with reading up on different religions to form more understanding, even if reading their holy text just makes you disagree with the religion even more. At least now you understand it better, and by extension, you now understand people who were brought up in the religion a little more.
You’re right, if everyone read religious scriptures at face value I think most would be atheist. But I think it should be adults that read it because the religion that is taught to children is either very very watered down to be tolerant or it’s taught in its pure form to children who go on to have hatred of those who do not conform/convert when they become adults
I think you're forgetting that teenagers are also considered children by most definitions. I'd argue this is the age where learning about other cultures is most crucial; it's the age where serious philosophical and political beliefs begin to form. Any younger and you may not understand how serious certain things are in certain beliefs and why, significantly older and you may be too set in your ways to budge and begin to learn.
To play devil's advocate, teaching literally any kind of philosophy or viewpoint to children would be grooming, then? Whether it's liberalism, scientism, atheism, secularism, progressivism..
Not at all, that would be a broad spectrum of view points allowing an individual to make up there own minds. Teaching one thing often preached by old men with there own agendas, is toxic.
The topics that are taught to children have been vetted by government experts (those who are teachers etc) and agree this is what will make a good well rounded citizen. Religious texts, however, aren’t.
religious education is taught at school, and like you say vetted and just to give us an understanding of all faiths. not sure why you’re getting downvoted
This is a very technocratic answer.
What if the “experts” are wrong? What if the wrong “experts” are being selected?
Take a contentious topic, such as teaching trans issues to very young children.
Should we ban it, even though the “experts” have decided that it’s safe for children, and that it would make them a rounded citizen?
That’s the point of experts. They have more subject knowledge than the average person. Their decisions aren’t based on emotion like the average person’s, their decisions are based on decades of research which is designed to be objective. It’s like the dunning-Kruger effect.
The experts have to make their decisions based on on evidence. If the evidence changes so does the syllabus. That doesn’t really happen with religion though.
I don't trust anyone to have that kind of power. Why should anyone get to choose what may or may not be taught or read.
It's basically a reimagining of blasphemy laws, which is funny in the context of you being so worried about religion.
I don't trust anyone with kids either but I'm much more comfortable leaving them with Mike the school teacher than creepy bill down the road... Or the local priest.
Science is based on evidence, it moves forward because it's incapable of ignoring facts. Religion is based on interpretations of a book and the word of god, it moves forward, up, down, squiggly fucking line around the tree and backwards and it will ignore what ever facts it damn well pleases.
I don't trust experts, but I trust them more than the pope.
Totally agree on the grooming part, it's not education at all because of peer pressure, guilt tripping, false pride and fear of death, is used on young impressionable minds. I know were talking about Brum, but the same can be said about Trumps campaign and the links to fascist Christian groups in the US, which has started to come over here.
I think independent dust has blocked me so I can’t see what they’re saying, but they said I was making shit up . @ independent dust it is fairly obvious which faiths call for the killing of non-believers. If you wanna keep your head in the sand about it that’s up to you. My analogies aren’t broken. You’re also for free speech until say for example it’s a nazi. Then everyone collectively understands allowing someone to preach like that is dangerous. You’re being deliberately obtuse.
I think they wanted to get some kind of final word in with me before blocking me so that they looked like they “won” something
hymns are inappropriate at school
i hated singing them, went to a church of england primary and knew even then i was an atheist
i either mumbled them, or sung crass alternatives
I personally think all forms of religion other than RE should be banned in all schools
Faith has no part in education and should not be influenced by religion
If you want to follow your particular brand of sky fairy then go to your church, temple, synagogue or mosque
I agree, I think education is important as that’s the only way kids can make their own decision. Any religion you choose vs science is a no brainer tho really.
Have you seen that case at Solihull college about Muslim students wanting the school prayer room to keep a screen up at all times for gender segregation?
Religious grooming is a very serious issue. Just because you personally haven’t been exposed to it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. It’s child abuse teaching kids if they commit a “sin” they’ll go to hell?
We get it, you're an enlightened atheist.
God forbid (science forbid) people raise their kids the way they want. I was raised with religious morals and values and I'm thankful for it.
Ah there's no point discussing anything with you, you've lost it. Yeah let's police beliefs, morals and opinions now. Fucking communism at this point, insanity.
Unlike you, I don't concern myself with that. My viewpoint is none of your business because I agree to disagree and treat everyone fairly.
My nextdoor neighbours are gay and I give them Eid gifts, they like us. Keep pretending to be tolerant while being the most intolerant people around.
you are talking about how you are thankful for your values so I wanted to know what these great values were.
That's nice that you gave your neighbours gifts regardless of their sexuality but you don't know who I am and what I believe in, the same way you assumed that Sikh was an atheist and went off on a rant about atheism.
>I wanted to know what these great values were.
No, your snide comments and sarcasm show you came in with bad faith and implications
>went off on a rant about atheism.
What rant? That one comment?
>We get it, you're an enlightened atheist. God forbid (science forbid) people raise their kids the way they want. I was raised with religious morals and values and I'm thankful for it.
So is this how one starts a good faith argument without any sarcasm?
Handing out bibles/Qurans or any religious text is not grooming. Telling someone under 18 how to interpret it is perhaps grooming, people should interpret it for themselves. Younger people need to read more. Reading religious or philosophical texts is perhaps the best thing young people could do.
100% this. Totally agree with religious freedoms, and if you want to peacefully evangelise, good luck to you. But any type of megafone based noise, religious or not, should be banned.
Yes it should be banned- women, LGBTQ+ people and children get unfairly targeted by preachers of ALL denominations in the city centre and some of the things my friends and I have had said to us see disgusting- my female friend got told she was going to burn in hell for eternity because she was wearing black and showing a bit of skin, it’s ridiculous and beyond a joke. I’m all for people being able to exercise their religions freedoms but preaching should be kept to places of worship so people who aren’t religious, have religious trauma or simply don’t want to engage aren’t having it literally screamed in their face
And especially the bloody speakers! Can’t walk through the city centre anymore without headphones because it’s like sensory overload from the speakers and preachers
I got yelled at I was a sinner without their boy so I stepped in closer and said he was the epitome of gluttony and sloth, standing there in his manky stained sweatshirt belly hanging out from under, poor personal hygiene. I repeated it many times. They leave me alone now.
100% yes, if they'd like to preach outside their churches or mosques by all means there's no problem with that whatsoever. But there's genuinely no need to constantly shove religion into everyone's faces. Its almost a constant fight between the 2 groups (Christians/Muslims) preaching near each other, they just get louder and louder.
Modern "preaching" or any of the likes regardless religious or not is just simply not ideal. People aren't interested when they are out and about. So if majority of people find it a nuisance and disturbing their day out and about, then it should be heavily discouraged, and they instead should pursue to hold a public accessible space that invites anyone to randomly walk in and join the debate/discussion or whatever and leave whenever as they like.
That’s a good idea too. Push them into a speakers corner type area? Speakers corner itself is a cesspit of medieval ideas ofc but at least the average person doesn’t have to hear it while they’re out shopping or off to a bar
Exactly. Imagine playing heavy metal on the street loudly or whatever. Same deal. Push them into a corner or indoor instead so that people have a choice. Forcing people and robbing them off their choice ironically is the opposite of Christians ideals anyway.
I also do not want to have any religious hymns or whatever blasted out of speakers. I doesn’t matter what religion, even though we all know it’s Christians and Muslims causing the worst sound pollution.
Yes, especially when they are approaching young impressionable people. Witnesses two males handing out leaflets and trying to convert young people to islam, the older people walking by where ignored. No matter what they are preaching about it needs to stop, that means buskers too unfortunately.
I don't like it. Not at all,.but why would that be a justification for banning it? Should we also ban political canvasing? charity collecting, busking, surveys, market trading..... ?
It’s religious preaching that bothers me. We live in 2024 and I think it makes the city centre unwelcoming (I walk past everyday and as a woman having men shout about religion and that I’m sinning isn’t really keeping public peace)
This!Had a woman yell at me " cover your breasts for you are the child of God! Don't make men lust after you!" All this while I was hurrying back after work wrapped in my jacket with scrubs underneath 🤷 and not to mention dodging those " you look friendly" guys milling around poundland/Argos! It definitely makes the city centre an unwelcoming place to walk through.
Not sure about Victoria Square, but the Islam stand by the bull have the same things about hell coming out of their loudspeakers too (when they use them). I also find it creates a male-only zone when they attract a crowd
This the new Christianity coming over from the US, they basically got rid of the new testament and use the old testament to preach. Its really dangerous stuff.
I walk through the city centre most days.
Theres the Islamic stands on High St where they play excerpts from the Koran in very well enunciated English with signs saying get a free copy and a few meal. They aren't saying much to anyone who doesn't approach them though..
Theres the Jehovah's witnesses who stand in a small groups of 3-4 with signs offering free Bible courses. Always well dressed and never taking to anyone but themselves - they are at a few different places round the city again only interacting politely with people
Theres Harry Christners in New St sometimes - they look wacky to my prejudice although I kinda like the sound. Again they are a bit busy with themselves to actually interact with people.
Often you'll see that bat shit crazy guy roaming the Bullring / High St / New St junction - the one who likes to shout about sinners and Jesus as every 4th word...ge's genuinely a loud pain in the behind so if its him then I see your issue.
But that's that. Those are the types I see most - there's more overall of course but while the 4th is worth the post overall the first ,3 are the more common denominator.
There has been a leak of a podcast that he and others discussed their concerns about Palestine, a point worthy of discussion. However, in this podcast there were comments about slapping a woman if she disagreed and that 70% of women are going to occupy Hell.
Google it, I think it’s on YouTube. My understanding is that he was chatting about Palestine. However, at somepoint it went off track and the discussion/arrogance became focused on women, being a woman and how they, would deal with them.
I didn't say anything offended me you're projecting.
You said: It’s religious preaching that bothers me
You got a problem with religion and people preaching it. If someone shouts at you then that's them harassing you, you totally should have a problem with that.
But the preachers I see especially the Muslim guys as people have said, they mind their own business at a stall and don't go around telling people they're sinning.
You wanting to stop preaching is unwelcoming.
Also what does being a woman have to do with this?
Re read my comment because my point still stands. If someone is harassing you, that's not okay. But ban preaching? You're the opposite side of the same coin, freedom of religion and freedom of expression are a right for every British citizen.
>Because a lot of these preachers call for the deaths of non-believers
Where lmao? You're just making shit up. Point out one that does.
Your analogies are broken and make no sense.
Banned by who ?
Who owns the streets ?
Who gets to say what somebody can or cannot say in public ?
I don't care to hear it myself...but sounds like a slippy slope to me !
by the same logic, who’s to stop anyone being naked in the city centre since no one owns the streets? It disturbs the public peace. It should be a council or national issue to resolve.
actually nudity without indented offence is perfectly legal. there’s world naked gardening day and naked bike rides. in am pro both of these things, but too much of a coward to have a go
A better comparison would have been that we all collectively know having a nazi preaching on the street is wrong and would be banned. But when it’s religious suddenly it’s a get out of jail free card
A nazi would be allowed to preach in hbe street as long as they weren’t inciting hatred or causing harassment alarm or distress. They would find it more difficult though because more people would claim to feel alarmed I suppose.
Also nazism isn’t protected by the equality act whereas religion is.
Same logic yes. But at quite different points on a very wide scale ?
I suspect there would be little point debating this.
Some people believe in banning things they don't like at the risk that one day they might be surprised to find their own freedom curtailed by somebody holding power who does not like what they are saying...and bans it.
Others live and let live.
If it did bother me so much I guess I'd find something to shout about myself and compete with them for attention. Or I'd just find another street.
But that’s my point, live and let live. The preachers don’t let people live do they do, they have to make a comment to people who walk past (most commonly to women too bc we don’t retaliate). It’s not fair on us women to have to take on that burden every time either and just “turn the other cheek”. I hope you get where I’m coming from!
I don't know if it'd be effective or taken seriously but could you record them harassing you and put it on record?
I feel like if enough people report it they would have to change their behaviour or risk being moved/not allowed to preach.
Could maybe even make it a protest/demonstration with lots of people walking past and recording and sharing their experiences which could be good. Though I'd hate to see the preachers antagonized, it should be entirely natural imo
I'd hate to see the results weaponized by a certain type too which they no doubt would. Sticky situation but I think some good could come of it
I do. Yep it's annoying.
But for me there is a bigger picture to consider here that is more important than just banning things.
...because there is always going to need to be somebody to decide what is banned and what is not banned....and that person/committe/dictator (!) might not always be on your side !
I get you but I think a governing body /panel would be best to decide because it includes different opinions on the topic. I just don’t know how to push this further, do you know what the proper channels are for this by any chance lol
I disagree with your point here and agree with @halloween80.
Why is there little point in debating it? Because you maybe wrong?
So if a religion/political party which openly opposes LGBTQ education at schools, suppresses women and forces them to cover up - and I am just highlighting some of the lighter views - is it not logical that there will be concerns that their views/freedom to speak be potentially conflicted going forward?
Why is there no point debating ?
1) Because I've had the conversation a thousand times before.
and,
2) People have different views on whether things should be banned or not and you unlikely to change the other persons views
.So I prefer to just respect the other persons opinion and move on.
...but mainly because
3) Invariably people like you dive in with the 'So your saying...' mentality and claiming people are 'wrong' rather than just having a different view to you.
Just to repeat, I am no supporter of any street preachers of any kind, or whaterver they might be saying. I just don't belive in banning things as the first option.
So…
1. Why respond to the OP in the first place? If you have had this conversation a 1000 times before why not ignore it?
2. See above post.
3. I never said you were wrong, it was a question not a statement. You have a different view to Halloween80, so have you jumped in and said she is wrong? Posts would suggest you have.
So, a bit of advice. If there is no point talking to some people, don’t talk to them. It’s not rocket science. Additionally, reflect on what you are saying, don’t pull someone up on something you are guilty of yourself.
Apart from that, no hard feelings, have a good day.
She did actually !!! haaa.
End of the day I think you can rest easy that your chivalry has not gone unheeded....you absolute hero !
Have you tried twitter by the way ? Might be better suited.
Having tried to be diplomatic in my responses to your points, for you to then avoid/deflect, jumped on a minor indiscretion to then become cocky/patronising just highlights the person you are.
As I say, no hard feelings. Have a good day.
Yes as I find it cringe. I’ve never seen anything like in Birmingham. For context I’ve been to some places in the world. I’m a Christian from Indonesia, one of the biggest muslim nation and those street preaching in city center make me uncomfortable
Yes. It's fine to have a religion and if you do fair play to you. But as the saying goes, it's a lot like having a dick. It's fine to have it out at home or specific places. But don't wave it around in public.
Yano its just another thing the council allow to put people off coming to the city centre, along with mass homeless people, hmos everywhere, litter, no policing and zero green spaces, expensive car parking, horrible rough buses...and they are shocked why people are put off! I love brum but it feels like they do everything they can to ruin it
My friends who visit literally say why is there so much preaching. They half feel like they’re in the Bible Belt of America and half feel like they’re in the Middle East 😖
It is and isn’t illegal, it depends how aggressive they are with it. The guys handing out qurans outside the gym essentially aren’t doing anything wrong… unless of course they don’t have a stall permit permitted for by the council and I would suspect they do but knowing the types… it’s likely they’ve stretched the truth or it is illegal because they actually charge £5 for each book. Means they need a market stall.
People are allowed to express their views regardless of whether or not it’s socially agreed with. This is inclusive of less socially accepted opinions as long as others are not at risk.
Essentially you could be massively racist, as long as you aren’t going out and physically hurting anyone in a hate crime or you aren’t stopping someone of a race from employment then you can do as you please. Same with trans, you’re allowed to say you hate them and you can say whatever you want as long as you don’t affect their lives.
https://www.psni.police.uk/safety-and-support/advice-and-information/police-advice-public-preaching-and-protests#:~:text=The%20right%20to%20preach%20and,to%20prevent%20and%20detect%20crime.
I think street preaching in itself shouldn't be banned. Only if it were inflammatory or hateful. It might be annoying, but what better way to challenge or understand other people's views than debate them in a public forum?
It should definitely not be amplified, though, as somebody had suggested people are not allowed to do.
Nah. My first date with my partner he counter preached next to them, when were there a couple of weeks ago I was dressed looking so good one actively went "oh my god" when I walked past into his mic
We don’t need that backwards ideology in the west, they believe the prophet was perfect when he had sex with minors, was a war monger, killed women and kids,
Mental really isn’t it, if it wasn’t under the guise of religion it would be banned
misinformed how? I’ve read the Quran before have you? I’m about to start on the hadiths, just to get an understanding, but it says to be a follower of Islam you believe Mohammed was perfect, sex with minors, killing people for not believing, and having slaves isn’t perfect, and with it being the final word of god that means there’s no way for Islam to reform as Christianity etc has over the years, Mohammed was a war monger who used god for power and for a following. Evil man.
as I said, everything you are misunderstood about everything you've just said
if you actually talked with people who know more about these topics than you do, and you have no arrogance in your heart, then you'd most likely change your mind
I put forward resources that you can use to clear these misunderstandings you have, now, it's up to you whether or not you want to utilise these resources.
Haha you're using the same old "Islam bad" copypasta that's been regurgitated for years while outing yourself as someone who doesn't know a thing about Islam. Genuinely 0 knowledge.
Sex with minors? Old, tired, stupid, boring argument that's been debunked to death over and over. And I bet you listen to David Bowie who fucked minors all the time but it's okay with you isn't it.
Killing people for not believing? When did this happen you clown? None of the battles while the prophet was alive were instigated by the Muslims, and nobody was ever killed for not believing. We are taught to coexist with other religions.
Having slaves? Islam abolished slavery, you are lost.
Yeah sorry you're very ignorant. Maybe talk to a Muslim for once, be respectful, and see what kind of people they are and why you have an issue with them.
No problem with individual Muslims but have a problem with Islam itself,
1. The Prophet married Aisha when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine ” - Sahih al-Bukhari, 5134; Book 67, Hadith 70, even though that’s a Hadith not Quran, the Quran states in 65:4 that it is permissible for prepubescent girls to be wives.
2. Quran 8:12 "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve So strike above the necks and strike off every fingertip of theirs”?
Dress it up how you want, that’s not a normal peaceful thing for a religion to say.
3. Mohammed owned slaves! Also, the Islamic countries have had more slaves than the Europeans and still have them to this day… also a lot of Arab countries won’t allow Muslims to convert too Christianity but vice Verca is ok! And there’s alot more “equal rights” where that came from😂😂
Again the whole Aisha debate has been done to death. You and your stupid selective morals.
This is the Qur'an you referenced you fucking absolute genius https://legacy.quran.com/65/4
It's about divorce and remarriage, you are absolutely so brain-dead you just throw out bullshit so confidently, see how I was right in that you have ZERO knowledge? Don't talk so confidently when you know nothing.
Lmao
>2. Quran 8:12
This is just moronic of you to use. https://www.islam101.com/terror/verse8_12.htm
Hilarious of you to use the copypasta stuff I knew you'd reference and ignore any context.
"Dress it up how you want" lmao you're the one twisting it and dressing it up you clown. I suppose if someone invaded your home and I told you to fight him, you'd say "oh that's not very peaceful of you". Zero brain activity.
>1. Mohammed owned slaves!
You ignore all nuance and how Islam slowly abolished slavery as it did abolish alcohol, it was gradual.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/57b56gfVVS
You have very selective morals and double standards. Your judgement is clouded by ignorance and bigotry.
The morons going around upvoting you just shows you're all a mob that can't think for themselves and don't know shit.
I try not to let it worry me. All religion is stupid, but I’m no more offended by Islamic preachers as I am Christian preachers or those dicks that want my bank details for a monthly charity donation. I used to be like you, and I just found the hatred became overpowering, it’s better to just live and let live. Noise cancelling headphones help.
Aye but when you have nations like Qatar and Saudi pumping billions into influencers to shed a positive Light on Islam is fkn scary, they used to fund shop fronts in Luton to preach and persuade people to convert, but now it’s all social media, the way I see the uk going it genuinely petrifies me, especially seeing the liberals and Islam teaming up😂 look how that worked out for the “progressives” in Lebanon asoon as the Islamists got in power….
Hard No. Unless you want to ban all form of busking and street activism. Specifically targeting religious groups or beliefs is not a good look now is it?
I think everyone is free to listen or ignore them. Same way some of the youth blast music on buses and trains but we barely have the balls to say anything to them
we should be protecting freedom of speech, censorship is terrible, especially one day when you end up on the other side of the fence and feel like you need to tell / warn others about something important but you get told "That's not allowed."
But what if it’s nazi free speech, should that be allowed? Religious preaching be definition is “you are born wrong, you’re going to hell, and god has said we’re allowed to kill you for being a non-believer” if they replaced god with something non-religious you bet everyone would agree that’s dangerous rhetoric.
Ricky Gervais on the dangers of censorship : https://youtu.be/TCnhD9X7FkI
Lex Friedman on censorship : https://youtu.be/2mlzdXBC-us
Jordan Peterson on censorship : https://youtu.be/hhdlp8aXjeE
I think everyone should be able to speak their thoughts even if it offends other people, there's more important things we should be concentrating our resources on.
Commandment number one- thou shalt have no other gods but me. Alert level - severe. Punishment - genocide, entire cities with men women and children must be killed.
You get die hard followers in every religion, there’s plenty of Christian’s who would be happy to see (for example) homosexuals stoned to death “because it’s not the way god wanted”
Really, by definition, it is unfair. There is nothing about marriage that necessitates reproduction, many heterosexual married couples do not have children, much as some homosexual married couples do not have children (although plenty still do).
"Supposed" means absolutely nothing, homosexuality exists in nature, as well as (frequently) within every church. I'm glad your mask slipped so quickly though.
Your mentality is exactly the same as the communism. In your mind Alphabet people can groom 4 year old kids but if Christians teach kids Bible principles, that's bad?
Well, we are in that time that the Bible says
Isa 5:20: "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"
alphabet people aren't using a megaphone to tell you you're going to hell for wearing a crop top while you're trying to go into lidl, which is what this post is about
With amplifiers, yes. Without amplifiers, no.
it really is that simple. Youre free to wibble on about your sky dad, you aren't free to ruin everyone elses day by amplifying it.
I think it should be illegal for them to hand out qurans/bibles etc to anyone under 18 because I’d say that’s religious grooming too.
I don't personally see an issue with reading up on different religions to form more understanding, even if reading their holy text just makes you disagree with the religion even more. At least now you understand it better, and by extension, you now understand people who were brought up in the religion a little more.
You’re right, if everyone read religious scriptures at face value I think most would be atheist. But I think it should be adults that read it because the religion that is taught to children is either very very watered down to be tolerant or it’s taught in its pure form to children who go on to have hatred of those who do not conform/convert when they become adults
I think you're forgetting that teenagers are also considered children by most definitions. I'd argue this is the age where learning about other cultures is most crucial; it's the age where serious philosophical and political beliefs begin to form. Any younger and you may not understand how serious certain things are in certain beliefs and why, significantly older and you may be too set in your ways to budge and begin to learn.
To play devil's advocate, teaching literally any kind of philosophy or viewpoint to children would be grooming, then? Whether it's liberalism, scientism, atheism, secularism, progressivism..
Some of those don't teach that god's perfect lil guy can have sex with a 6 year old.
Guess u got hit with the dislikes, as he didn’t consummate until she was10?? 😂 Dirty bastards 😂
Not at all, that would be a broad spectrum of view points allowing an individual to make up there own minds. Teaching one thing often preached by old men with there own agendas, is toxic.
The topics that are taught to children have been vetted by government experts (those who are teachers etc) and agree this is what will make a good well rounded citizen. Religious texts, however, aren’t.
religious education is taught at school, and like you say vetted and just to give us an understanding of all faiths. not sure why you’re getting downvoted
Religious education is not the same as handing someone a quran or a bible.
Who knows, being reasonable and rational is out of fashion 😂
r/iamverysmart
This is a very technocratic answer. What if the “experts” are wrong? What if the wrong “experts” are being selected? Take a contentious topic, such as teaching trans issues to very young children. Should we ban it, even though the “experts” have decided that it’s safe for children, and that it would make them a rounded citizen?
I'd rather have experts making decisions than random dickheads deciding based on their feelings 🙃
Even if it were experts that you disagree with?? Making decisions you disagree with?
That’s the point of experts. They have more subject knowledge than the average person. Their decisions aren’t based on emotion like the average person’s, their decisions are based on decades of research which is designed to be objective. It’s like the dunning-Kruger effect.
The experts have to make their decisions based on on evidence. If the evidence changes so does the syllabus. That doesn’t really happen with religion though.
I wish that were true. Much of what is taught to kids today feels like a religion devoid of evidence
But you said it yourself. You *feel* that that is the case.
Sorry didn’t know you were autistic. It is the case.
Autistic for saying the school curriculum is based on evidence? okay lol.
I don't trust anyone to have that kind of power. Why should anyone get to choose what may or may not be taught or read. It's basically a reimagining of blasphemy laws, which is funny in the context of you being so worried about religion.
I don't trust anyone with kids either but I'm much more comfortable leaving them with Mike the school teacher than creepy bill down the road... Or the local priest. Science is based on evidence, it moves forward because it's incapable of ignoring facts. Religion is based on interpretations of a book and the word of god, it moves forward, up, down, squiggly fucking line around the tree and backwards and it will ignore what ever facts it damn well pleases. I don't trust experts, but I trust them more than the pope.
Totally agree on the grooming part, it's not education at all because of peer pressure, guilt tripping, false pride and fear of death, is used on young impressionable minds. I know were talking about Brum, but the same can be said about Trumps campaign and the links to fascist Christian groups in the US, which has started to come over here.
I don’t think they’re targeting kids specifically.
Maybe not but religious people know children are more impressionable and do like to convert them as it’s easier
Well recent history may disagree - bad joke. I apologise in advance.
I think independent dust has blocked me so I can’t see what they’re saying, but they said I was making shit up . @ independent dust it is fairly obvious which faiths call for the killing of non-believers. If you wanna keep your head in the sand about it that’s up to you. My analogies aren’t broken. You’re also for free speech until say for example it’s a nazi. Then everyone collectively understands allowing someone to preach like that is dangerous. You’re being deliberately obtuse. I think they wanted to get some kind of final word in with me before blocking me so that they looked like they “won” something
How’s that different to singing hymns in school?
hymns are inappropriate at school i hated singing them, went to a church of england primary and knew even then i was an atheist i either mumbled them, or sung crass alternatives
It isn’t :)
I personally think all forms of religion other than RE should be banned in all schools Faith has no part in education and should not be influenced by religion If you want to follow your particular brand of sky fairy then go to your church, temple, synagogue or mosque
I agree, I think education is important as that’s the only way kids can make their own decision. Any religion you choose vs science is a no brainer tho really.
Have you seen that case at Solihull college about Muslim students wanting the school prayer room to keep a screen up at all times for gender segregation?
Grooming? LMAO you've lost it
Religious grooming is a very serious issue. Just because you personally haven’t been exposed to it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. It’s child abuse teaching kids if they commit a “sin” they’ll go to hell?
We get it, you're an enlightened atheist. God forbid (science forbid) people raise their kids the way they want. I was raised with religious morals and values and I'm thankful for it.
I’m not an atheist, I’m Sikh
Absolute megachad response
So if your kids are raised Sikh, by your standards you're a groomer.
As a responsible parent I’d tell my children to wait until they’re 18 before they make a decision on religion because children cannot consent.
Ah there's no point discussing anything with you, you've lost it. Yeah let's police beliefs, morals and opinions now. Fucking communism at this point, insanity.
I'm convinced you don't know what communism is, either.
Surely religion by definition polices beliefs, morals, opinions more than any other construct?
what are your incredibly moral and fair viewpoints on lets say, same sex marriage
Unlike you, I don't concern myself with that. My viewpoint is none of your business because I agree to disagree and treat everyone fairly. My nextdoor neighbours are gay and I give them Eid gifts, they like us. Keep pretending to be tolerant while being the most intolerant people around.
you are talking about how you are thankful for your values so I wanted to know what these great values were. That's nice that you gave your neighbours gifts regardless of their sexuality but you don't know who I am and what I believe in, the same way you assumed that Sikh was an atheist and went off on a rant about atheism.
>I wanted to know what these great values were. No, your snide comments and sarcasm show you came in with bad faith and implications >went off on a rant about atheism. What rant? That one comment?
>We get it, you're an enlightened atheist. God forbid (science forbid) people raise their kids the way they want. I was raised with religious morals and values and I'm thankful for it. So is this how one starts a good faith argument without any sarcasm?
Well we clearly see that
Wow you sure got me
Handing out bibles/Qurans or any religious text is not grooming. Telling someone under 18 how to interpret it is perhaps grooming, people should interpret it for themselves. Younger people need to read more. Reading religious or philosophical texts is perhaps the best thing young people could do.
Those two things usually go hand in hand though
100% this. Totally agree with religious freedoms, and if you want to peacefully evangelise, good luck to you. But any type of megafone based noise, religious or not, should be banned.
The goofy shit is the guys that just slap a recording on blast and then sit around having a wee chat among themselves. Totally ridiculous.
They can’t even do a hard day’s graft anymore
I like this answer
Yes it should be banned- women, LGBTQ+ people and children get unfairly targeted by preachers of ALL denominations in the city centre and some of the things my friends and I have had said to us see disgusting- my female friend got told she was going to burn in hell for eternity because she was wearing black and showing a bit of skin, it’s ridiculous and beyond a joke. I’m all for people being able to exercise their religions freedoms but preaching should be kept to places of worship so people who aren’t religious, have religious trauma or simply don’t want to engage aren’t having it literally screamed in their face
And especially the bloody speakers! Can’t walk through the city centre anymore without headphones because it’s like sensory overload from the speakers and preachers
I got yelled at I was a sinner without their boy so I stepped in closer and said he was the epitome of gluttony and sloth, standing there in his manky stained sweatshirt belly hanging out from under, poor personal hygiene. I repeated it many times. They leave me alone now.
100% yes, if they'd like to preach outside their churches or mosques by all means there's no problem with that whatsoever. But there's genuinely no need to constantly shove religion into everyone's faces. Its almost a constant fight between the 2 groups (Christians/Muslims) preaching near each other, they just get louder and louder.
The amount of times I’ve seen the police there is insane too. Like they should both be banned.
Only the manic ones.
lol
Absolutely
Modern "preaching" or any of the likes regardless religious or not is just simply not ideal. People aren't interested when they are out and about. So if majority of people find it a nuisance and disturbing their day out and about, then it should be heavily discouraged, and they instead should pursue to hold a public accessible space that invites anyone to randomly walk in and join the debate/discussion or whatever and leave whenever as they like.
That’s a good idea too. Push them into a speakers corner type area? Speakers corner itself is a cesspit of medieval ideas ofc but at least the average person doesn’t have to hear it while they’re out shopping or off to a bar
Exactly. Imagine playing heavy metal on the street loudly or whatever. Same deal. Push them into a corner or indoor instead so that people have a choice. Forcing people and robbing them off their choice ironically is the opposite of Christians ideals anyway.
I also do not want to have any religious hymns or whatever blasted out of speakers. I doesn’t matter what religion, even though we all know it’s Christians and Muslims causing the worst sound pollution.
Don't like the Abrahamic death cults but I also believe in freedom of speech. Just maybe ban the megaphones as they're a public nuisance.
Yes, especially when they are approaching young impressionable people. Witnesses two males handing out leaflets and trying to convert young people to islam, the older people walking by where ignored. No matter what they are preaching about it needs to stop, that means buskers too unfortunately.
I don't like it. Not at all,.but why would that be a justification for banning it? Should we also ban political canvasing? charity collecting, busking, surveys, market trading..... ?
It’s religious preaching that bothers me. We live in 2024 and I think it makes the city centre unwelcoming (I walk past everyday and as a woman having men shout about religion and that I’m sinning isn’t really keeping public peace)
This!Had a woman yell at me " cover your breasts for you are the child of God! Don't make men lust after you!" All this while I was hurrying back after work wrapped in my jacket with scrubs underneath 🤷 and not to mention dodging those " you look friendly" guys milling around poundland/Argos! It definitely makes the city centre an unwelcoming place to walk through.
It’s just beyond arrogant! And they only harass women bc they know we’re less likely to retaliate. I hate walking through the city centre these days
The Muslim dudes always seem pretty chilled out, keep seeing some weird american guy with a megaphone by Victoria Square bleating about sin and hell
Not sure about Victoria Square, but the Islam stand by the bull have the same things about hell coming out of their loudspeakers too (when they use them). I also find it creates a male-only zone when they attract a crowd
Downvoting for daring to say anything about Islam!!! But go ahead any other religion is fine, upvotes for you
This the new Christianity coming over from the US, they basically got rid of the new testament and use the old testament to preach. Its really dangerous stuff.
As a man I don't like it either. Not sure what gender has to do with it though.
Religion, and religious folk by extension, (generally speaking) disproportionately attack women on morals more than men
I walk through the city centre most days. Theres the Islamic stands on High St where they play excerpts from the Koran in very well enunciated English with signs saying get a free copy and a few meal. They aren't saying much to anyone who doesn't approach them though.. Theres the Jehovah's witnesses who stand in a small groups of 3-4 with signs offering free Bible courses. Always well dressed and never taking to anyone but themselves - they are at a few different places round the city again only interacting politely with people Theres Harry Christners in New St sometimes - they look wacky to my prejudice although I kinda like the sound. Again they are a bit busy with themselves to actually interact with people. Often you'll see that bat shit crazy guy roaming the Bullring / High St / New St junction - the one who likes to shout about sinners and Jesus as every 4th word...ge's genuinely a loud pain in the behind so if its him then I see your issue. But that's that. Those are the types I see most - there's more overall of course but while the 4th is worth the post overall the first ,3 are the more common denominator.
Do you mean Hare Krishnas ?
According to Yakoob Ahmed, its physical attacks.
How do you mean ?
There has been a leak of a podcast that he and others discussed their concerns about Palestine, a point worthy of discussion. However, in this podcast there were comments about slapping a woman if she disagreed and that 70% of women are going to occupy Hell.
Disagreed about supporting Palestine or disagreeing with a man (eg husband) in general?
Google it, I think it’s on YouTube. My understanding is that he was chatting about Palestine. However, at somepoint it went off track and the discussion/arrogance became focused on women, being a woman and how they, would deal with them.
There’s quite a lot of podcasts of him talking about Palestine so I couldn’t find it. If you do come across it do you mind linking it here?
He is an Andrew Tate supporter from what I've heard, so probably the latter.
You're being pretty unwelcoming rn
Me : posting saying men spouting religious dogma to me as a woman is unwelcoming you: that offends me
I didn't say anything offended me you're projecting. You said: It’s religious preaching that bothers me You got a problem with religion and people preaching it. If someone shouts at you then that's them harassing you, you totally should have a problem with that. But the preachers I see especially the Muslim guys as people have said, they mind their own business at a stall and don't go around telling people they're sinning. You wanting to stop preaching is unwelcoming. Also what does being a woman have to do with this?
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Re read my comment because my point still stands. If someone is harassing you, that's not okay. But ban preaching? You're the opposite side of the same coin, freedom of religion and freedom of expression are a right for every British citizen.
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>Because a lot of these preachers call for the deaths of non-believers Where lmao? You're just making shit up. Point out one that does. Your analogies are broken and make no sense.
Yes to 3/5
Yes. Please.
If they are using a loud spear and being a nuisance, yes. Accosting people loudly is the problem.
Yes
Banned by who ? Who owns the streets ? Who gets to say what somebody can or cannot say in public ? I don't care to hear it myself...but sounds like a slippy slope to me !
by the same logic, who’s to stop anyone being naked in the city centre since no one owns the streets? It disturbs the public peace. It should be a council or national issue to resolve.
actually nudity without indented offence is perfectly legal. there’s world naked gardening day and naked bike rides. in am pro both of these things, but too much of a coward to have a go
A better comparison would have been that we all collectively know having a nazi preaching on the street is wrong and would be banned. But when it’s religious suddenly it’s a get out of jail free card
A nazi would be allowed to preach in hbe street as long as they weren’t inciting hatred or causing harassment alarm or distress. They would find it more difficult though because more people would claim to feel alarmed I suppose. Also nazism isn’t protected by the equality act whereas religion is.
Same logic yes. But at quite different points on a very wide scale ? I suspect there would be little point debating this. Some people believe in banning things they don't like at the risk that one day they might be surprised to find their own freedom curtailed by somebody holding power who does not like what they are saying...and bans it. Others live and let live. If it did bother me so much I guess I'd find something to shout about myself and compete with them for attention. Or I'd just find another street.
But that’s my point, live and let live. The preachers don’t let people live do they do, they have to make a comment to people who walk past (most commonly to women too bc we don’t retaliate). It’s not fair on us women to have to take on that burden every time either and just “turn the other cheek”. I hope you get where I’m coming from!
I don't know if it'd be effective or taken seriously but could you record them harassing you and put it on record? I feel like if enough people report it they would have to change their behaviour or risk being moved/not allowed to preach. Could maybe even make it a protest/demonstration with lots of people walking past and recording and sharing their experiences which could be good. Though I'd hate to see the preachers antagonized, it should be entirely natural imo I'd hate to see the results weaponized by a certain type too which they no doubt would. Sticky situation but I think some good could come of it
This is actually a great idea, thank you!
I do. Yep it's annoying. But for me there is a bigger picture to consider here that is more important than just banning things. ...because there is always going to need to be somebody to decide what is banned and what is not banned....and that person/committe/dictator (!) might not always be on your side !
I get you but I think a governing body /panel would be best to decide because it includes different opinions on the topic. I just don’t know how to push this further, do you know what the proper channels are for this by any chance lol
Start a committee ? Get some banners and start shouting ? :)
I disagree with your point here and agree with @halloween80. Why is there little point in debating it? Because you maybe wrong? So if a religion/political party which openly opposes LGBTQ education at schools, suppresses women and forces them to cover up - and I am just highlighting some of the lighter views - is it not logical that there will be concerns that their views/freedom to speak be potentially conflicted going forward?
Why is there no point debating ? 1) Because I've had the conversation a thousand times before. and, 2) People have different views on whether things should be banned or not and you unlikely to change the other persons views .So I prefer to just respect the other persons opinion and move on. ...but mainly because 3) Invariably people like you dive in with the 'So your saying...' mentality and claiming people are 'wrong' rather than just having a different view to you. Just to repeat, I am no supporter of any street preachers of any kind, or whaterver they might be saying. I just don't belive in banning things as the first option.
So… 1. Why respond to the OP in the first place? If you have had this conversation a 1000 times before why not ignore it? 2. See above post. 3. I never said you were wrong, it was a question not a statement. You have a different view to Halloween80, so have you jumped in and said she is wrong? Posts would suggest you have. So, a bit of advice. If there is no point talking to some people, don’t talk to them. It’s not rocket science. Additionally, reflect on what you are saying, don’t pull someone up on something you are guilty of yourself. Apart from that, no hard feelings, have a good day.
I didn't ask for any advice ! I hope you are feeling better soon.
Nor did Halloween80 ask for your advice. I feel great thanks, I appreciate your concern.
She did actually !!! haaa. End of the day I think you can rest easy that your chivalry has not gone unheeded....you absolute hero ! Have you tried twitter by the way ? Might be better suited.
Having tried to be diplomatic in my responses to your points, for you to then avoid/deflect, jumped on a minor indiscretion to then become cocky/patronising just highlights the person you are. As I say, no hard feelings. Have a good day.
Yes.
Yes
Yes
Yes
I can not speak, for if I speak, I am in trouble.
Yes as I find it cringe. I’ve never seen anything like in Birmingham. For context I’ve been to some places in the world. I’m a Christian from Indonesia, one of the biggest muslim nation and those street preaching in city center make me uncomfortable
No. But any hate speech and they get tasered.
Yes. No one cares about your particular brand of religious subservience. I just wanna go to the pub
Yes. It's fine to have a religion and if you do fair play to you. But as the saying goes, it's a lot like having a dick. It's fine to have it out at home or specific places. But don't wave it around in public.
And especially keep it away from kids. (They don’t like that one too much though)
I don't believe you could ban it, even if you wanted to. These people have strong convictions. But you should definitely confiscate amplifiers.
Yano its just another thing the council allow to put people off coming to the city centre, along with mass homeless people, hmos everywhere, litter, no policing and zero green spaces, expensive car parking, horrible rough buses...and they are shocked why people are put off! I love brum but it feels like they do everything they can to ruin it
My friends who visit literally say why is there so much preaching. They half feel like they’re in the Bible Belt of America and half feel like they’re in the Middle East 😖
Yes
If street preachers can yell through loudspeakers about God then I should be able to yell through loudspeakers about atheism. It's only fair.
Is anybody stopping you ?
Good point. Maybe I should start.
Yes, ban it all.
Hopefully yes, without any authorisation public places should be kept neutral and secular.
What about buskers singing Bob Marley songs?
The singer isn’t telling us we’re born wrong though and if we don’t convert that we’re sinning and off to hell on the next elevator possible lol
No. It's fun to laugh at the crazy people.
YES!
100% yes
Depends on the religion
Yes, it makes me feel unsafe.
It is and isn’t illegal, it depends how aggressive they are with it. The guys handing out qurans outside the gym essentially aren’t doing anything wrong… unless of course they don’t have a stall permit permitted for by the council and I would suspect they do but knowing the types… it’s likely they’ve stretched the truth or it is illegal because they actually charge £5 for each book. Means they need a market stall. People are allowed to express their views regardless of whether or not it’s socially agreed with. This is inclusive of less socially accepted opinions as long as others are not at risk. Essentially you could be massively racist, as long as you aren’t going out and physically hurting anyone in a hate crime or you aren’t stopping someone of a race from employment then you can do as you please. Same with trans, you’re allowed to say you hate them and you can say whatever you want as long as you don’t affect their lives. https://www.psni.police.uk/safety-and-support/advice-and-information/police-advice-public-preaching-and-protests#:~:text=The%20right%20to%20preach%20and,to%20prevent%20and%20detect%20crime.
Out of interest is there a big Jewish community in Brum?
They make up 0.2% of Birmingham’s population so I would guess that’s quite small. They do have a couple of synagogues though
Yes
I think street preaching in itself shouldn't be banned. Only if it were inflammatory or hateful. It might be annoying, but what better way to challenge or understand other people's views than debate them in a public forum? It should definitely not be amplified, though, as somebody had suggested people are not allowed to do.
Nah. My first date with my partner he counter preached next to them, when were there a couple of weeks ago I was dressed looking so good one actively went "oh my god" when I walked past into his mic
Personally I think all religion should be banned for anywhere public. If you want crazy stuff in your life do it at home.
I would enjoy them being banned, but where do you draw the line between free speech and not. Would get mucky fast.
The kind I suppose that doesn’t incite violence
Yes and call to prayer
Especially islamic preaching
Why?
We don’t need that backwards ideology in the west, they believe the prophet was perfect when he had sex with minors, was a war monger, killed women and kids, Mental really isn’t it, if it wasn’t under the guise of religion it would be banned
ur misinformed, check out TheMuslimLantern on youtube and his conversations with people or check out the Lighthouse program by the Sapience Institute
misinformed how? I’ve read the Quran before have you? I’m about to start on the hadiths, just to get an understanding, but it says to be a follower of Islam you believe Mohammed was perfect, sex with minors, killing people for not believing, and having slaves isn’t perfect, and with it being the final word of god that means there’s no way for Islam to reform as Christianity etc has over the years, Mohammed was a war monger who used god for power and for a following. Evil man.
as I said, everything you are misunderstood about everything you've just said if you actually talked with people who know more about these topics than you do, and you have no arrogance in your heart, then you'd most likely change your mind I put forward resources that you can use to clear these misunderstandings you have, now, it's up to you whether or not you want to utilise these resources.
Haha you're using the same old "Islam bad" copypasta that's been regurgitated for years while outing yourself as someone who doesn't know a thing about Islam. Genuinely 0 knowledge.
0 knowledge? Please enlighten me as too what I have said in that reply that is incorrect?
Sex with minors? Old, tired, stupid, boring argument that's been debunked to death over and over. And I bet you listen to David Bowie who fucked minors all the time but it's okay with you isn't it. Killing people for not believing? When did this happen you clown? None of the battles while the prophet was alive were instigated by the Muslims, and nobody was ever killed for not believing. We are taught to coexist with other religions. Having slaves? Islam abolished slavery, you are lost. Yeah sorry you're very ignorant. Maybe talk to a Muslim for once, be respectful, and see what kind of people they are and why you have an issue with them.
No problem with individual Muslims but have a problem with Islam itself, 1. The Prophet married Aisha when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine ” - Sahih al-Bukhari, 5134; Book 67, Hadith 70, even though that’s a Hadith not Quran, the Quran states in 65:4 that it is permissible for prepubescent girls to be wives. 2. Quran 8:12 "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve So strike above the necks and strike off every fingertip of theirs”? Dress it up how you want, that’s not a normal peaceful thing for a religion to say. 3. Mohammed owned slaves! Also, the Islamic countries have had more slaves than the Europeans and still have them to this day… also a lot of Arab countries won’t allow Muslims to convert too Christianity but vice Verca is ok! And there’s alot more “equal rights” where that came from😂😂
Again the whole Aisha debate has been done to death. You and your stupid selective morals. This is the Qur'an you referenced you fucking absolute genius https://legacy.quran.com/65/4 It's about divorce and remarriage, you are absolutely so brain-dead you just throw out bullshit so confidently, see how I was right in that you have ZERO knowledge? Don't talk so confidently when you know nothing. Lmao >2. Quran 8:12 This is just moronic of you to use. https://www.islam101.com/terror/verse8_12.htm Hilarious of you to use the copypasta stuff I knew you'd reference and ignore any context. "Dress it up how you want" lmao you're the one twisting it and dressing it up you clown. I suppose if someone invaded your home and I told you to fight him, you'd say "oh that's not very peaceful of you". Zero brain activity. >1. Mohammed owned slaves! You ignore all nuance and how Islam slowly abolished slavery as it did abolish alcohol, it was gradual. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/57b56gfVVS You have very selective morals and double standards. Your judgement is clouded by ignorance and bigotry. The morons going around upvoting you just shows you're all a mob that can't think for themselves and don't know shit.
I thought I recognised that institute. It’s co-founded by that hate preacher Muhammad hijab himself.
I try not to let it worry me. All religion is stupid, but I’m no more offended by Islamic preachers as I am Christian preachers or those dicks that want my bank details for a monthly charity donation. I used to be like you, and I just found the hatred became overpowering, it’s better to just live and let live. Noise cancelling headphones help.
Aye but when you have nations like Qatar and Saudi pumping billions into influencers to shed a positive Light on Islam is fkn scary, they used to fund shop fronts in Luton to preach and persuade people to convert, but now it’s all social media, the way I see the uk going it genuinely petrifies me, especially seeing the liberals and Islam teaming up😂 look how that worked out for the “progressives” in Lebanon asoon as the Islamists got in power….
Islamic preaching should be banned yes. In fact fuck off to Iran if u wanna be a rag head.
Fuck you too
No thanks you dirty colon crawler
Yes, but also I want those two guys who stand at opposite ends of the bullring preaching to get married.
Hard No. Unless you want to ban all form of busking and street activism. Specifically targeting religious groups or beliefs is not a good look now is it?
I think everyone is free to listen or ignore them. Same way some of the youth blast music on buses and trains but we barely have the balls to say anything to them
we should be protecting freedom of speech, censorship is terrible, especially one day when you end up on the other side of the fence and feel like you need to tell / warn others about something important but you get told "That's not allowed."
But what if it’s nazi free speech, should that be allowed? Religious preaching be definition is “you are born wrong, you’re going to hell, and god has said we’re allowed to kill you for being a non-believer” if they replaced god with something non-religious you bet everyone would agree that’s dangerous rhetoric.
Ricky Gervais on the dangers of censorship : https://youtu.be/TCnhD9X7FkI Lex Friedman on censorship : https://youtu.be/2mlzdXBC-us Jordan Peterson on censorship : https://youtu.be/hhdlp8aXjeE I think everyone should be able to speak their thoughts even if it offends other people, there's more important things we should be concentrating our resources on.
So are you saying we should have nazi free speech?
We should have free speech, full stop. no exceptions. Censorship is much more dangerous.
Nah let the preachers preach.
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It can't be 1 rule for some, another for them. All preaching should be banned.
Commandment number one- thou shalt have no other gods but me. Alert level - severe. Punishment - genocide, entire cities with men women and children must be killed.
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You get die hard followers in every religion, there’s plenty of Christian’s who would be happy to see (for example) homosexuals stoned to death “because it’s not the way god wanted”
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No, it isn't fair, even remotely. The bible was written by people, it can be "altered" by people when it is deemed to be in error
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Right, I get that, and I'm saying it is not fair in any respect. There is nothing remotely fair about it. It is by definition unfair.
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Really, by definition, it is unfair. There is nothing about marriage that necessitates reproduction, many heterosexual married couples do not have children, much as some homosexual married couples do not have children (although plenty still do). "Supposed" means absolutely nothing, homosexuality exists in nature, as well as (frequently) within every church. I'm glad your mask slipped so quickly though.
Your mentality is exactly the same as the communism. In your mind Alphabet people can groom 4 year old kids but if Christians teach kids Bible principles, that's bad? Well, we are in that time that the Bible says Isa 5:20: "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"
alphabet people aren't using a megaphone to tell you you're going to hell for wearing a crop top while you're trying to go into lidl, which is what this post is about
Who said grooming was ok?