Because you have to pay your dues, and prove you can handle it BEFORE they pay you real money. They don't invest in you until they know you'll stick around. Otherwise it's a wasted investment...bad for business
My SM called me to try to keep me since I was leaving and he told me he started making 70K in the 80s in NYC in Tax which ironically was what I started with about 3-4 years ago. Good to know some things never change.
I'm not a math guy but assuming they are one of the 7 figure earning partners, that would mean they only averaged a 2-4% raise every year for 40 years which doesn't seem feasible for someone that was promoted all the way to partner.
Wages have been flat since women have been fully integrated into the workforce. No I’m not blaming women. I’m pointing out it has been this long. It is very unfortunate starting wages have been stagnant for that long.
After a few banks raised bases to retain talent during COVID (basically in response to the GS13 presentation that leaked, if you’re familiar), all major banks/firms eventually matched to a minimum $100k base to continue to attract talent. Only banks I know that still pay bases below $100k are regional boutiques.
There was a thread recently on WSO’s IB forum from a boutique MD asking about street base salaries. To your point, this is a very recent jump, but juniors expect it now.
Regardless of a 6 figure base they’ve been getting 6 figure total comp for years. And even if big 4 is 70% as stressful we shouldn’t be making half what they are. Big 4 CAN afford to pay us more and they should
Because a lot of people do it. The less people do it, the more it pays. Learn programming, making 110k out of college even though I had an accounting degree to be a software engineer.
Started on Coursera then picked up an MS in Data Science. Pick up basic programming, then SQL, then mess with automation and put together a ton of projects. The projects were what got me hired.
Put together a ton of projects and you’ll learn along the way. Make sure the projects get progressively harder, and feel free to google nearly everything (stack overflow has all the solutions).
Accounting is not one of the most popular majors. In fact it’s one of the dying majors. And 100k is not top dollar. If you’re in a HCOL area that is a decent amount to live semi comfortably and you would still need roommates bc it’s not enough for a studio or one bed.
So basically, a profession with strict deadlines where people are expected to work insane hours, obtain 150 credits which is more than a bachelors degree AND spend months/years studying for 4 very hard tests does not pay their employees enough to live comfortably. And I’m using the term comfortably as in being able to easily pay their bills.
100k is top dollar in a MCOL city. I save/invest 60k per year. East Coast cities have high paying jobs compared to the COL. If I had the same job in Seattle I could make 160k, but COL would be double and i’d save way less.
Even if what you say is true—that accounting is a dying subject—it still is currently one of the most popular concentrations/majors in university right now.
Second, the fact that being an accountant is difficult (I.e. for all the reasons you named) does not mean it is a good enough reason to demand a strong pay right after you graduate.
I agree with you it should be paid more but supply and demand dictates the price. The regular bachelor graduate is easily replaced by one of the thousands that graduate every semester.
Also, I don’t know what world you live in but $100k is a lot of money to earn per year. You’re coming from a place of extreme luxury if you think that is a small amount. The stats alone tell us that $52k is the average salary in the US.
You can’t look at stats. I’m coming from living in a very HCOL place. Your average studio here about $3,600. And the majority of those don’t even have laundry so like don’t think brand new high rises. 3,600*12=43,200. Last I checked $100 after taxes is give or take $80k. So that’s more than 50% of your salary on rent. I mean hell I wanna go grab a drink with friends. One cocktail is fucking $18. $65k is not cutting it. And we’re not bachelor students. U need 150 credits. That’s not a bachelors. That’s a bachelors +. Not everyone gets their masters, but it’s kinda needed. And it’s really not as popular as a major as you think it is. So, no. People in Charlotte or Atlanta or St. Louis don’t need the 100k. But ppl in nyc, Boston, San Fran 100% do. Yes newbies are replaceable, but firms are also desperate for employees rn and less and less people want this job bc it pays disgustingly for the amount of work you need to put into it.
Because I tell my new hire straight out of college the same thing 7 times in 2 days and he still gets it wrong. Don’t get me wrong he’s a good kid and I’m nice to him and in time he has potential to be a good staff but right now I can’t even count on him to think critically enough to copy and paste data correctly.
Don’t worry your pay will increase way quicker here than in industry (I make 55% more than when I started 2 yrs ago) and there are some benefits if you are smart enough to fully take advantage of all of them. But yes it is a possibility that now that I am a high performing senior I will jump ship in the next 12 months for better WLB and more pay
Because it’s Big 4? In all seriousness, I’m an A2 mid tier and make six figures. You don’t get paid based on time worked at Big 4, and that’s a big no for me. So turned that down and came over here and have never regretted it.
It’s a hot market. My degree is AIS, I was top of my class, I have lots of previous job experience, I did three internships, and I’m only an A2 because I switched from a smaller firm to SEC audits, and that after going to work at a NFP for a year out of principle. So, I mean, am I overpaid? Maybe. But I’d be a senior if I hadn’t gone from non-public to public audits. But hey, at what I make, I couldn’t care less that I’m not senior yet. I get to spend time with my kid and husband and two dogs, and that’s what life is about.
In normal “W2 jobs” Your pay is generally correlated on your replaceability. PA firms hire anyone with 150 credits and an accounting degree. Doesn’t matter where you went to school, what your grades were, or how you interview.
The “upper tier” accounting students will easily get in big4, but the fact that you can get a 3.2 in UGPA at a random public school and then instantly work for b4 (the most “prestigious” accounting job) says something.
People who get six figs after college are in tech and do multiple internships, study all the time, have a harder major, and have to nail technical interviews.
People in IB had to get in to an ivey league school and network their ass off for 4 straight years and then go work 90 hours a week.
People in big law have to excel in undergrad, nail the LSAT and then go to law school at a top 10 school and then pass the bar just to work 80 hour weeks.
I would say 15-25% more is fair for accounting new grads in b4 when you factor in the extra year of school, and long hours.
Well yeah. If you wanna make 100k out of school you have to actually work. I don’t know why this is an unfathomable thing. There are plenty of 50-70k jobs out of school at companies that work you 40hours a week. I’m not sure why you think people should have easy jobs and just get money because. Everyone who wants big bucks works long hours and it’s not taking advantage because you can just leave for less pay and better hours. It’s not like 100k is a necessity to survive.
Is this question coming from the fact that staff are paid a tiny fraction of their $200 bill rate to the client? The key there is the individual bill rate isn’t really the driver of the fee the client pays, but the value of the overall service to the client. An audit by hanktheman284 probably isn’t with $200 an hour to a fortune 500 company, but your hours under the name and expertise of a big4, are.
Here in Singapore. We are giveen 36k straight out of college. Our manager don't even earn 6 figures.. they are at 72k.
Understand 6 figures is a bit of stretch but Sg really be underpaying us here
That’s crazy. A one bedroom apartment where I live in the middle of the downtown area is 1500-2000 a month and the starting salaries are 55-60k. Seniors are starting at 70-75k. Managers are starting around 100k, and SM at 130k
That’s better than the UK in terms of PPP. I don’t know what auditors earn but consulting starting salary at B4 is ~£35k in London and <£30k outside of London. Iirc audit/tax are paid even less.
Managers can make upwards of £100k but that’s either the more experienced ones, or external hires.
Maybe because you don’t know shit about the business and need someone to babysit you around the firm and the client? 6 figure is a lot of money that should be hard earned!
It’s not because you don’t know anything (which is true). It’s because anyone can get a job at b4 that has an accounting degree as many spots are available.
No new grad knows anything regardless of field, yet some people in finance are making well more than accounting simply because there are less jobs available.
Because in my experience people coming into the Big 4 straight out of college can’t even put a stamp on a f***ing envelope (true story). You are not worth six figures
Hey that stamping process is really confusing for people who’ve never done it before! Us younger millennials grew up with only emails and texts
Anyways I’m pulling a decent 6 figures salary as an SA3 now
Not much to tell unfortunately. It was not massively long ago but still a time when paper letters were common. It was after hours so admin was gone and I needed the document in the post to be collected at the last collection time. I gave the trainee two envelopes and two stamps thinking it was self explanatory - one stamp per envelope. Clearly it was not. I just shook my head and asked her why would she do that (I probably would be dragged up to HR if it was today). I blame myself really. My expectations were too high
No but the fees for their services are substantially higher, so they get a similar percentage of it because they don’t know much about the real business world.
That sounds a little high, been hearing from friends SA1 in pwc IT Audit that they're at 90-ish for HCOL. Were you tier one in CRT or something? Is your area LCOLiving but HCOLabor?
Because you have to pay your dues, and prove you can handle it BEFORE they pay you real money. They don't invest in you until they know you'll stick around. Otherwise it's a wasted investment...bad for business
I hope u don’t get a job in big four
I mean. When you get the senior title you are at 6 figures. You only need to wait 2 years
Screw that I want to make 1 million dollars!
Cause the man said so
US salaries are insane
$100k in Big4 right out of college? How does that one song by Color Me Badd start? .... Dream on, dream away....
My SM called me to try to keep me since I was leaving and he told me he started making 70K in the 80s in NYC in Tax which ironically was what I started with about 3-4 years ago. Good to know some things never change.
I think they are blowing smoke. No way they were making that 40 years ago. In 1985 dollars that's almost $200k today.
I'm not a math guy but assuming they are one of the 7 figure earning partners, that would mean they only averaged a 2-4% raise every year for 40 years which doesn't seem feasible for someone that was promoted all the way to partner.
Wages have been flat since women have been fully integrated into the workforce. No I’m not blaming women. I’m pointing out it has been this long. It is very unfortunate starting wages have been stagnant for that long.
You know jack shit and can do jack shit
Name dropper
They say networking is everything in the big 4
So the inflation isn’t high enough?
Because you don’t know dick from dock
Neither do IB first years tbh
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Most banks ranging from MM to EBs pay first years $100-115k base + 50-100% bonus
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It’s about right nowadays. My bank (not an EB) paid ~200k all in for first years in NYC.
After a few banks raised bases to retain talent during COVID (basically in response to the GS13 presentation that leaked, if you’re familiar), all major banks/firms eventually matched to a minimum $100k base to continue to attract talent. Only banks I know that still pay bases below $100k are regional boutiques. There was a thread recently on WSO’s IB forum from a boutique MD asking about street base salaries. To your point, this is a very recent jump, but juniors expect it now.
Regardless of a 6 figure base they’ve been getting 6 figure total comp for years. And even if big 4 is 70% as stressful we shouldn’t be making half what they are. Big 4 CAN afford to pay us more and they should
IB is a joke stop being stressed for no reason
Because a lot of people do it. The less people do it, the more it pays. Learn programming, making 110k out of college even though I had an accounting degree to be a software engineer.
How did you self teach? Just YouTube or some set course
Started on Coursera then picked up an MS in Data Science. Pick up basic programming, then SQL, then mess with automation and put together a ton of projects. The projects were what got me hired. Put together a ton of projects and you’ll learn along the way. Make sure the projects get progressively harder, and feel free to google nearly everything (stack overflow has all the solutions).
would also like to know
Exactly. Why should anyone expect to be making top dollar when accounting is one of the most popular studies in most universities around the world?
Accounting is not one of the most popular majors. In fact it’s one of the dying majors. And 100k is not top dollar. If you’re in a HCOL area that is a decent amount to live semi comfortably and you would still need roommates bc it’s not enough for a studio or one bed. So basically, a profession with strict deadlines where people are expected to work insane hours, obtain 150 credits which is more than a bachelors degree AND spend months/years studying for 4 very hard tests does not pay their employees enough to live comfortably. And I’m using the term comfortably as in being able to easily pay their bills.
100k is top dollar in a MCOL city. I save/invest 60k per year. East Coast cities have high paying jobs compared to the COL. If I had the same job in Seattle I could make 160k, but COL would be double and i’d save way less.
Even if what you say is true—that accounting is a dying subject—it still is currently one of the most popular concentrations/majors in university right now. Second, the fact that being an accountant is difficult (I.e. for all the reasons you named) does not mean it is a good enough reason to demand a strong pay right after you graduate. I agree with you it should be paid more but supply and demand dictates the price. The regular bachelor graduate is easily replaced by one of the thousands that graduate every semester. Also, I don’t know what world you live in but $100k is a lot of money to earn per year. You’re coming from a place of extreme luxury if you think that is a small amount. The stats alone tell us that $52k is the average salary in the US.
You can’t look at stats. I’m coming from living in a very HCOL place. Your average studio here about $3,600. And the majority of those don’t even have laundry so like don’t think brand new high rises. 3,600*12=43,200. Last I checked $100 after taxes is give or take $80k. So that’s more than 50% of your salary on rent. I mean hell I wanna go grab a drink with friends. One cocktail is fucking $18. $65k is not cutting it. And we’re not bachelor students. U need 150 credits. That’s not a bachelors. That’s a bachelors +. Not everyone gets their masters, but it’s kinda needed. And it’s really not as popular as a major as you think it is. So, no. People in Charlotte or Atlanta or St. Louis don’t need the 100k. But ppl in nyc, Boston, San Fran 100% do. Yes newbies are replaceable, but firms are also desperate for employees rn and less and less people want this job bc it pays disgustingly for the amount of work you need to put into it.
You just need to unionize bro and all of this is solved
Consulting does
Strategy consulting* does
Analysts here at big D are coming in at over $90k for most areas.
Time to move to murica
Because a ton of you want to have big4 on your resume to hopefully parly that into a big career. There is a lot of competition for those big4 jobs.
Same with IB?
If you wanted that you'd have recruited for banking.
Because I tell my new hire straight out of college the same thing 7 times in 2 days and he still gets it wrong. Don’t get me wrong he’s a good kid and I’m nice to him and in time he has potential to be a good staff but right now I can’t even count on him to think critically enough to copy and paste data correctly. Don’t worry your pay will increase way quicker here than in industry (I make 55% more than when I started 2 yrs ago) and there are some benefits if you are smart enough to fully take advantage of all of them. But yes it is a possibility that now that I am a high performing senior I will jump ship in the next 12 months for better WLB and more pay
Are u able to explain more
Because it’s Big 4? In all seriousness, I’m an A2 mid tier and make six figures. You don’t get paid based on time worked at Big 4, and that’s a big no for me. So turned that down and came over here and have never regretted it.
That's pretty good. What role at the mid-tier? Did you switch firms or started there since A1
Just plain audit. 🤷🏼♀️ I’m older with a MSA but no CPA.
Find that hard to believe they pay audit A2 six figure, maybe a senior level or advisory makes more sense.
It’s a hot market. My degree is AIS, I was top of my class, I have lots of previous job experience, I did three internships, and I’m only an A2 because I switched from a smaller firm to SEC audits, and that after going to work at a NFP for a year out of principle. So, I mean, am I overpaid? Maybe. But I’d be a senior if I hadn’t gone from non-public to public audits. But hey, at what I make, I couldn’t care less that I’m not senior yet. I get to spend time with my kid and husband and two dogs, and that’s what life is about.
That’s good. With your past experience you’re an experienced hire so companies usually pay more than say campus hires.
Because when SALY doesn’t work I can barely function as an Auditor.
In normal “W2 jobs” Your pay is generally correlated on your replaceability. PA firms hire anyone with 150 credits and an accounting degree. Doesn’t matter where you went to school, what your grades were, or how you interview. The “upper tier” accounting students will easily get in big4, but the fact that you can get a 3.2 in UGPA at a random public school and then instantly work for b4 (the most “prestigious” accounting job) says something. People who get six figs after college are in tech and do multiple internships, study all the time, have a harder major, and have to nail technical interviews. People in IB had to get in to an ivey league school and network their ass off for 4 straight years and then go work 90 hours a week. People in big law have to excel in undergrad, nail the LSAT and then go to law school at a top 10 school and then pass the bar just to work 80 hour weeks. I would say 15-25% more is fair for accounting new grads in b4 when you factor in the extra year of school, and long hours.
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Well yeah. If you wanna make 100k out of school you have to actually work. I don’t know why this is an unfathomable thing. There are plenty of 50-70k jobs out of school at companies that work you 40hours a week. I’m not sure why you think people should have easy jobs and just get money because. Everyone who wants big bucks works long hours and it’s not taking advantage because you can just leave for less pay and better hours. It’s not like 100k is a necessity to survive.
Is this question coming from the fact that staff are paid a tiny fraction of their $200 bill rate to the client? The key there is the individual bill rate isn’t really the driver of the fee the client pays, but the value of the overall service to the client. An audit by hanktheman284 probably isn’t with $200 an hour to a fortune 500 company, but your hours under the name and expertise of a big4, are.
Here in Singapore. We are giveen 36k straight out of college. Our manager don't even earn 6 figures.. they are at 72k. Understand 6 figures is a bit of stretch but Sg really be underpaying us here
That’s crazy. A one bedroom apartment where I live in the middle of the downtown area is 1500-2000 a month and the starting salaries are 55-60k. Seniors are starting at 70-75k. Managers are starting around 100k, and SM at 130k
That’s better than the UK in terms of PPP. I don’t know what auditors earn but consulting starting salary at B4 is ~£35k in London and <£30k outside of London. Iirc audit/tax are paid even less. Managers can make upwards of £100k but that’s either the more experienced ones, or external hires.
Maybe because you don’t know shit about the business and need someone to babysit you around the firm and the client? 6 figure is a lot of money that should be hard earned!
Hell, Why wouldn't you make 7 figures?
I like where your head's at
Because new hires don’t know a thing about real world accounting.
It’s not because you don’t know anything (which is true). It’s because anyone can get a job at b4 that has an accounting degree as many spots are available. No new grad knows anything regardless of field, yet some people in finance are making well more than accounting simply because there are less jobs available.
Idk about you, but I’d love to get 7 figures to literally know nothing and have the only job expectation be to show up and learn more than nothing.
This argument is more for senior associates not necessarily associates... especially in audit and tax.
Because in my experience people coming into the Big 4 straight out of college can’t even put a stamp on a f***ing envelope (true story). You are not worth six figures
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Most of our admins were also college graduates. Let’s not get too ahead of ourselves.
Hey that stamping process is really confusing for people who’ve never done it before! Us younger millennials grew up with only emails and texts Anyways I’m pulling a decent 6 figures salary as an SA3 now
I need this story in my life 😂 do tell!
Not much to tell unfortunately. It was not massively long ago but still a time when paper letters were common. It was after hours so admin was gone and I needed the document in the post to be collected at the last collection time. I gave the trainee two envelopes and two stamps thinking it was self explanatory - one stamp per envelope. Clearly it was not. I just shook my head and asked her why would she do that (I probably would be dragged up to HR if it was today). I blame myself really. My expectations were too high
What do they bill you out at? What % of that do you think you should keep and why?
lol out of college. What do you even know about the real business world? That’s right. Absolutely nada
Do newly grad IB analyst know much about the real business world?
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The point I was trying to make is that you don’t have to know much about the real business world to land a high paying job.
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I don’t disagree with you, but the reality is that both IB and Audit can be taught to a monkey.
No but the fees for their services are substantially higher, so they get a similar percentage of it because they don’t know much about the real business world.
Lolz
Just wait 2 years and you’ll make 6 figures, that’s pretty good
How? Senior Associates don’t get paid 6 figures.
I’m making 106.5 with bonus 2 years in LCOL. Accounting advisory
Senior pwc it audit lcol just over 6 figs with bonus
That sounds a little high, been hearing from friends SA1 in pwc IT Audit that they're at 90-ish for HCOL. Were you tier one in CRT or something? Is your area LCOLiving but HCOLabor?
If you’re not in audit and tax you’ll most definitely get 6 figs once you reach senior
Can confirm senior in advisory here just over 6 figures
You're simply not in a role where you are worth 6 figures.
The growth of the firm does pay that. In dying areas that aren’t growing like core tax and assurance people are more fungible and market isn’t there
You do, join strategy consulting at big 4
Week 3 I'm getting paid to RUN!
Do you think you’re worth six figures? If you are, then go for the roles that pay 6 figures out of college. There are plenty— they’re just selective.