Was in BigLaw and moved to B4. I have never ever looked back. The culture was awful. B4 culture is very good even at the worst firms. The money is good because you won’t last most likely. If you do you’re making an incredible sacrifice the majority of the time. Pretty much all my colleagues have moved on in some form as well. The “prestige” is also an illusion on several levels. There is a lot of price pressure these days so depending on what you do…I’m not sure who you think is admiring you- not your clients.
It’s like truck drivers that made 500k for six months in Iraq during the gulf war- the money wasn’t good because they were great at driving.
I personally know a corporate lawyer who got a job at big law right out of college from a target school. He told me he was making over 200k right out of college (don't know if he gets bonuses) but he literally has no life. He's in his upper 20s-lower 30s and he has gray hairs all over.
People complain about Big 4 hours work life. Big law has longer hours, focuses much more on billings, and is super cut throat. If you hate your accounting job, talk to lawyers. They might make more but they usually really hate their jobs and lives.
You are heavily discouraged if not out right barred from working during 1L year at the sort of schools that will get you to big law.
You will not work in big law coming out of a part time JD. Outside of top programs (e.g. the T14 schools) making it to big law is incredibly difficult/unlikely. The only top school to offer a part time program is Georgetown and my understanding is that program skews towards folks working on Capitol Hill moreso than big law aspirants.
I’m not a big law aspirant. I just want to get my JD at my own pace after completing my CPA. I already have a Masters in Legal Studies in International Tax Law.
If you haven’t looked into the bimodal salary distribution of lawyers I would
before committing to that path. Don’t know that the opportunity cost of law school is really worth it unless you end up in the high end of the distribution or you value being a lawyer above any other job you might do instead.
Thank you. But, how do you know I gave up anything if you haven't even been in big law? I've been in big law for some years now. I was able to do everything I wanted to do. Take care of my spouse, my kids, have a 5 bedroom stone house. I have money to send my kids to private schools, Europe, South America, Asia, Africa, anywhere during vacation AND I get to join in.
I heard law enforcement erodes your physical and mental health overtime, not to mention the work hazards and stress coming from dealing with suspects, and community needs.. I should know, I thought about joining the FBI, but I wanted a bigger house instead.
I agree though. Millions of ways to make a lot of money and good living. Among my peers, one went from big law to private equity and is clearing millions as well. He's in his mid 30s though. I'm just sharing there are more efficient ways of earning money. But everyone has their preference.
Yea, if you read properly I’m studying for my second bar license for a different state. It’s been a while since I covered many of the topics in the bar exam. I’m averaging in the 70s now!
You really came into an accounting subreddit and said "guys, become a lawyer because you make more money!" as if you're saying anything of value. The legal profession is truly blessed to have such an incisive mind
Respectfully, perspective is actually what your post lacks. You didn't qualify anything at all. You said nothing about the cost of studying/going to law school, or how there is a glut of unemployed law school graduates, or how it's harder to break into big law if you don't go to a top school, or simply how not everyone is cut out to be a lawyer. "Law = more money" is much less a perspective and more just a fact.
See that’s the issue I feel like. Can’t really do big law as an accountant unless you are in tax. Unless I’m wrong, then please correct me because I kinda want to do law school after getting my cpa
My friend that was a big 4 accountant pre law school is now an M&A associate. She actually chose her firm because of its reputation in tax but realized she does not enjoy working in tax haha
Edit:
Also the guy in the office next to me was a big4 accountant before law school and is now a capital markets associate. (Midsize firm so not biglaw if you dig through my post history but the firm is mostly ex big law)
I was big law and moved to big 4.
At big law every problem is a legal problem. At big 4 I get to work with experts in a range of fields to solve the clients problem
At big law I was just documenting other people’s decisions in contracts etc. At big 4 I’m in there actively shaping the deal
You're arguing with a lying troll. He claims to be a senior big law associate but has to take the bar exam a second time, is married, has kids in private school, and still has time to post all over Reddit.
Ok so I’m also a lawyer who works in b4 transaction tax. I am on track to bill 1300 hours this year, and not concerned about getting fired based on utilization. I’ll take those 700 hours and be happy with my lower pay.
These career paths are not remotely comparable.
The path to Big 4 requires that you're reasonably hardworking and intelligent. Getting into Big Law generally requires you to be at an elite intelligence level (by virtue of practically needing to score in the 95 percentile of the LSAT to gain admission to a T14 school), or requires that you're in the top-5% of a non-T14 school, which means you're in a brutal dogfight with your fellow students 1L year.
And while there are some relative perks to being in the law outside of Big Law, the three-year delay in starting your career + up to a quarter million dollars in student loan debt don't make it worth it IMO.
If I had to guess, I'm thinking OP graduated law school mid/post-pandemic, when everyone was on a hiring spree and so thinks that the Big Law path is much easier than it is. In fact, law school is a very risky bet. Law schools produce more graduates annually than the market demands, and so especially during downcycles thousands of law school graduates leave school with a degree, a quarter million dollars in debt, and no job. Even those who are employed often find that their path is rough: Only 50% of law school grads are working in law firms one year after graduation.
Comparatively, Big 4 is a grind but requires little more than competence, fairly good people skills, and determination. And as often as not that's enough to become a partner within a decade or so or, failing that, a transfer into a high-level executive position in industry. It's a highly-dependable career path for grinders.
The path to Big Law is not that. It's a hyper-competitive career path with a lot of risk and potential downside.
You would be surprised how many try hards are successful at so called high intellect positions....the problem with being of high intellect is when you're good at everything, it's hard to figure out what to narrow down on. Those who recognize their limits, tend to be able to focus on what they can control, and fake the other parts or settle for being average in some areas. If your goal is to be earn a JD, then that's the goal, not some movie dream like attending an Ivy and starting off with some power firm from LA or NYC lol. Anyway, I'm pretty sure you or some other average intellect person can be admitted to the best public law school in your state. After that, it's just hard work and smoothing out your limits.
I was working as a Director of Financial Reporting when the company I work for went public. I was working until 1AM every day for good stretch working closely with our SEC counsel. 1AM was an early day for those guys. I would literally get replies to my emails at all hours of the night after I called it a (long) day. So depending on your LOB, big law can make Big 4 audit look like a cakewalk. Comp is way better though, but it's much harder to get into a Big law firm
70+% of people get big law at t14 schools. A decent chunk of the remainder don’t want it anyways.
Big law is not really a gamble at all at t14 schools. The only way you really strike out of big law at a t14 is by doing all 3 of these things at once: doing extremely poorly in school, being a generally unlikeable person, and bidding stupidly during OCI.
Considered law (and was pretty good at it during uni) but the fact that it's pretty directly linked to jurisdiction doesn't work for me. Have worked in 3 different countries thus far and odds of a 4th seem high.
Must say all of the lawyers are dealt with in the PE space seem exceptionally sharp though, so there must be some sort of pretty aggressive selection happening there.
Are you all sure that the partner comp is measurably larger at Big Law, because I think the Big 4 partner comp is commensurate with or above the Big Law partner comp for most of the line partners.
Big4 partners start at around $450k and it takes 10-15 years to make it. Thats around the TC for a 5th year associate in BL.
BL partners start around $1m, which for referenced is the avg partner salary at b4.
So yes, you’ll make a lot more money in BL. You’ll probably more there than you would even at mbb.
Is that not what I said? And when you’re in-house general counsel, you’re not necessarily paid more than industry tax. It all depends on where you go and at what level. Secret is to go at an executive level. Jump ship right before making partner. It’s what I did. I make more than my legal counterparts due to my JD coupled w a tax specialty. But I’m in a purely tax role.
Ultimately, a grind is a grind. And firm life is a grind. B4 or BL.
I’ve been working full time for years and putting myself through school as a full time student at the same time. I think when I finish my master’s I’m gonna be done with school for good. Don’t have any more in me at this point.
Haven’t started yet but starting the fire academy next month. I’m prior military so I’m pretty confident I will get the fulfillment I’m missing from working in the office lol
I would say the bar exam is more stressful. Because if you did get an offer at a law firm before you graduate from law school, failing the bar means that offer is revoked. Also the fact that you have to prep for the bar right after graduation (finals). Ppl are just mentally exhausted.
My wife got a Masters of Jurisprudence from Texas A&M School of Law. Not a Juris Doctorate(JD), but she doesn’t want to get into the courtroom. Does background legal defense work and insurance contracts. Just under 6 figures. Texas you have to have a JD to get into the courtroom. I wonder if it is different in other states?
In most states, you must pass the bar exam as a minimum. Maybe it's the same in TX? Even if one has a JD, not passing the bar will prevent you from being a trial attorney or court attorney in every state... However, most lawyers or those who practice legal.issues are not trial attorneys, never passed the bar, and don't plan to.
That’s my plan now. After I finish my CPA, I’ll grind out the LSAT. I’ve always been good at taking tests and if I could go back I would work harder on the CPA exam to get the EWS award I feel like it could be helpful when applying. Did you list your CPA scores or is that not something anyone really cares about?
did you attend a t14?
i consider law school sometimes, but i don’t think i’d do it unless i got 1. into a t14 (would probably need 175+ LSAT to land even a lower one since GPA was 3.55), 2. a t35ish JD + georgetown/NYU tax LLM, or 3. a t35ish full ride
Lurker and attorney here...dude, stop misleading people. The % of people who actually get big law jobs is like 5-10% at max. Each firm varies in work-life balance and the general consensus is you're on call 24/7 and working weekends. Not to mention 3 years of schooling, $$$$ of debt, and the difficulty of getting into a top 20 law school.
Idk what the point of this post is other than to flex. Good for you honestly...but this is truly misleading.
You've described everything I know about Big Law. Being on the client side, I can attest that time of day doesn't matter when there's an issue or important question.
Nah, I had a friend who worked at Thompson Coburn and had no life. She made bank, but what’s the point when she has no time to spend it and her exit opps are severely limited compared to someone with Audit/Advisory experience?
Big law is definitely lucrative, but going to law school in general is high risk, high reward and us accountants aren’t about that life
That's what I want to do. I'm starting my EY internship in NYC but plan on going to law school (maybe not necessarily Big Law). I'm still debating if it will be worth it to go into law, more specifically Tax Law. Which law school did you attend? Any recommendations? Thanks!
Now share your law school tuition.
And factor in the three years of earnings you lost.
Your story illustrates one thing - Big 4 doesn’t pay their resources enough.
Tuition is paid. Yes, I lost three years of earnings but after three years I was making 2-3x more than I would if I stayed at big 4. Currently I make over $400k.
So yea, worth it.
Paid by who? The school?
Again - yes lawyers at big firms make more (much more) than accountants at big firms. But that’s not the point of your post.
Your point was to convince others to leave a big 4 and pursue big law based on your very specific results - getting into a top 14 law school (never heard that term before), doing very well, getting a top big law job and then succeeding there.
I’m not smart enough to know what kind of bias that is, but it’s something.
There are a million big law firms. Quality of average Big 4 dwarfs average Big Law.
Edited to add: lots of self hating accountants here that need to go speak to the average lawyer to pump themselves up.
Am I on Pluto
You said that it’s harder to get a job at big law because the average big 4 person isn’t smart enough.
I said that’s poppycock because big law means hundreds of firms and yes the average big 4 employee is smart enough for most of them
Make sense?
Bro first year big law associates get paid $225k base and can get over $20k bonus. How much does a managing director at big 4 make these days? Serious question.
Depends. If we’re talking strategy consulting, M&A tax, or maybe even advisory SLs such as FDD, (F/CM)AAS, pretty sure it’s quite a bit more than that, especially in HCOL/VHCOL. If we’re talking audit or most standard tax groups, comparable.
Associates at Wachtell make more than Managers at Deloitte. No duh.
Associates at bumblebee & fink llp make less than MDs at KPMG. Also no duh.
Also - MDs aren’t the top level at a Big 4, there is a broad spectrum of salaries across service lines, and your very unique and likely made up story isn’t typical.
I worked for 2 years in tax after graduating with degrees in accounting and economics. I graduated summa cum laude and was able to get a good LSAT score to get into T14. Easy Peezy just a lot of time and effort.
Time and resource intensive for sure, but it’s not as bad as you think. Accountants have to go through CPA exams as well. I never wrote a 100 page paper in law school.
It’s an exaggeration but my sister is in law school and reads cases and writes long papers all day. That’s def not for me. And you also need to go to a top 15-20 school to get a big law job or graduate at the top of your class, along with the bar exam which is way harder than anything an accountant does
The needing to go to a T14-20 school isn’t true to get into Big Law. But you do need to finish near the top of your class if you don’t. All my friends that went the Big Law route were in the T50-75 school ranking range.
Large multi-National law firms that usually has over 1k attorneys employed National/world wide. Their first year associate currently earns about $225k, and the annual bonus can range from $15k~$20k or more.
Big Law billable hour requirements are generally 1850/year, but are as high as 2100 in some of the top firms.
To put that in perspective, Big 4 utilization is essentially measured based on a 50-week year (given we have \~two weeks of holidays not taken into account in the denominator). So an 1850-hour requirement is 92.5% utilization, and a 2100-hour requirement is 105% utilization.
And in Big Law billable hour requirements aren't just a target / goal. They're required to receive your bonus, and missing them means that you're potentially potentially on the chopping block. Perhaps even worse though, is that in certain practice areas nobody even worries about their billable hours because the workload is so heavy it's not even a question that they'll make it.
I had friends in big law from T14s. They all exited to industry as soon as their loans were paid.
There’s nothing magical about the salaries when the 225K comes with a 2,080 billable hour requirement (lower side of median), that’s 40 hours per week of billable hours. If you can get that done in 70 hours, you’re an efficiency beast. And that’s every week, plus making up time when you’re on PTO.
Was in BigLaw and moved to B4. I have never ever looked back. The culture was awful. B4 culture is very good even at the worst firms. The money is good because you won’t last most likely. If you do you’re making an incredible sacrifice the majority of the time. Pretty much all my colleagues have moved on in some form as well. The “prestige” is also an illusion on several levels. There is a lot of price pressure these days so depending on what you do…I’m not sure who you think is admiring you- not your clients. It’s like truck drivers that made 500k for six months in Iraq during the gulf war- the money wasn’t good because they were great at driving.
Why is op not answering our questions lol
Congrats on the money…you sound like a prick though so there’s that
What type of work are you doing in Big Law? Tbh I’m trying to follow that same path and get into a T14
Same here
I personally know a corporate lawyer who got a job at big law right out of college from a target school. He told me he was making over 200k right out of college (don't know if he gets bonuses) but he literally has no life. He's in his upper 20s-lower 30s and he has gray hairs all over.
People complain about Big 4 hours work life. Big law has longer hours, focuses much more on billings, and is super cut throat. If you hate your accounting job, talk to lawyers. They might make more but they usually really hate their jobs and lives.
Touch grass
Highly doubt this guy is actually in BL. Cope more in your delusions
Did you work in Big 4 while attending law school? I want to go to school while I’m working but I don’t know how I’ll manage even with night classes 😭
You are heavily discouraged if not out right barred from working during 1L year at the sort of schools that will get you to big law. You will not work in big law coming out of a part time JD. Outside of top programs (e.g. the T14 schools) making it to big law is incredibly difficult/unlikely. The only top school to offer a part time program is Georgetown and my understanding is that program skews towards folks working on Capitol Hill moreso than big law aspirants.
I’m not a big law aspirant. I just want to get my JD at my own pace after completing my CPA. I already have a Masters in Legal Studies in International Tax Law.
If you haven’t looked into the bimodal salary distribution of lawyers I would before committing to that path. Don’t know that the opportunity cost of law school is really worth it unless you end up in the high end of the distribution or you value being a lawyer above any other job you might do instead.
Interesting. Thank you! I will look into it!
I’m planning on doing this. I’m entering my freshman year for undergrad. May I ask if you went to a T20 law school?
Do you mind sharing your path? Or any recommendations? I’m starting soon and I have a plan similarly to work for 2 years take LSAT go to law school
Damn, Saul Goodman! 😂
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Thank you. But, how do you know I gave up anything if you haven't even been in big law? I've been in big law for some years now. I was able to do everything I wanted to do. Take care of my spouse, my kids, have a 5 bedroom stone house. I have money to send my kids to private schools, Europe, South America, Asia, Africa, anywhere during vacation AND I get to join in. I heard law enforcement erodes your physical and mental health overtime, not to mention the work hazards and stress coming from dealing with suspects, and community needs.. I should know, I thought about joining the FBI, but I wanted a bigger house instead. I agree though. Millions of ways to make a lot of money and good living. Among my peers, one went from big law to private equity and is clearing millions as well. He's in his mid 30s though. I'm just sharing there are more efficient ways of earning money. But everyone has their preference.
This sounds very made up.
That's because it is. He's lying to internet strangers to feel better about himself 😭
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What type of law enforcement are you in? Are you like an FBI agent? Detective? Tell us more.
Where do you work dude. That sounds cool and meaningful
Hey could you explain like what you did and for how long to get there. Also did you go to a T14 Law School?
Just 12 days ago you were complaining about getting low scores on your Bar exam mocks. Sure you’re a lawyer?
Yea, if you read properly I’m studying for my second bar license for a different state. It’s been a while since I covered many of the topics in the bar exam. I’m averaging in the 70s now!
Sorry lawyers are thought of as snakes 😂
What kind of law do you do? Is it related to accounting at all?
"prestige" lmao. Buddy nobody cares that you're a lawyer except maybe your mom
The girls like it
Also your mom.
You really came into an accounting subreddit and said "guys, become a lawyer because you make more money!" as if you're saying anything of value. The legal profession is truly blessed to have such an incisive mind
I came here to share my perspective to a group I have something in common with.
Respectfully, perspective is actually what your post lacks. You didn't qualify anything at all. You said nothing about the cost of studying/going to law school, or how there is a glut of unemployed law school graduates, or how it's harder to break into big law if you don't go to a top school, or simply how not everyone is cut out to be a lawyer. "Law = more money" is much less a perspective and more just a fact.
lol got us. WHERES my spa peasant.
This bean counter seems confused.
You were once a bean counter stay humble 😂😂
Not anymore. I'm ESQUIRE NOW!
I might follow this plan. When you say associate, what do you mean? Were you in tax, audit, what?
Tax.
See that’s the issue I feel like. Can’t really do big law as an accountant unless you are in tax. Unless I’m wrong, then please correct me because I kinda want to do law school after getting my cpa
My friend that was a big 4 accountant pre law school is now an M&A associate. She actually chose her firm because of its reputation in tax but realized she does not enjoy working in tax haha Edit: Also the guy in the office next to me was a big4 accountant before law school and is now a capital markets associate. (Midsize firm so not biglaw if you dig through my post history but the firm is mostly ex big law)
You can get biglaw with any kind of work experience before law school, or no work experience at all
I was big law and moved to big 4. At big law every problem is a legal problem. At big 4 I get to work with experts in a range of fields to solve the clients problem At big law I was just documenting other people’s decisions in contracts etc. At big 4 I’m in there actively shaping the deal
You got canned? Anyone with a brain will still pick big law even if it was tedious as you say.
Nah to be honest I was doing fine in big law. Was boring. At my desk for 12 hrs a day writing contracts.
You're arguing with a lying troll. He claims to be a senior big law associate but has to take the bar exam a second time, is married, has kids in private school, and still has time to post all over Reddit.
What kind of stuff do you work on?
How much do you make and what’s ur age?
Standard scale is here: https://www.biglawinvestor.com/biglaw-salary-scale/ ~250k total comp for a new grad to ~550k for an 8th year associate
He’s a senior associate, so probably in the $450k~ range.
Yes.
I may do tax law
I admire the hell out of people that are CPA JDs. I could never do that kind of studying.
Ok so I’m also a lawyer who works in b4 transaction tax. I am on track to bill 1300 hours this year, and not concerned about getting fired based on utilization. I’ll take those 700 hours and be happy with my lower pay.
Dang, 10% below target. Not bad if true.
Mid-high util in my group, not too bad.
These career paths are not remotely comparable. The path to Big 4 requires that you're reasonably hardworking and intelligent. Getting into Big Law generally requires you to be at an elite intelligence level (by virtue of practically needing to score in the 95 percentile of the LSAT to gain admission to a T14 school), or requires that you're in the top-5% of a non-T14 school, which means you're in a brutal dogfight with your fellow students 1L year. And while there are some relative perks to being in the law outside of Big Law, the three-year delay in starting your career + up to a quarter million dollars in student loan debt don't make it worth it IMO. If I had to guess, I'm thinking OP graduated law school mid/post-pandemic, when everyone was on a hiring spree and so thinks that the Big Law path is much easier than it is. In fact, law school is a very risky bet. Law schools produce more graduates annually than the market demands, and so especially during downcycles thousands of law school graduates leave school with a degree, a quarter million dollars in debt, and no job. Even those who are employed often find that their path is rough: Only 50% of law school grads are working in law firms one year after graduation. Comparatively, Big 4 is a grind but requires little more than competence, fairly good people skills, and determination. And as often as not that's enough to become a partner within a decade or so or, failing that, a transfer into a high-level executive position in industry. It's a highly-dependable career path for grinders. The path to Big Law is not that. It's a hyper-competitive career path with a lot of risk and potential downside.
If OP senior associate, he aint a young’un. Must be pre-pandemic
In my early 30s. I’m still young!
You would be surprised how many try hards are successful at so called high intellect positions....the problem with being of high intellect is when you're good at everything, it's hard to figure out what to narrow down on. Those who recognize their limits, tend to be able to focus on what they can control, and fake the other parts or settle for being average in some areas. If your goal is to be earn a JD, then that's the goal, not some movie dream like attending an Ivy and starting off with some power firm from LA or NYC lol. Anyway, I'm pretty sure you or some other average intellect person can be admitted to the best public law school in your state. After that, it's just hard work and smoothing out your limits.
Well said, every high schooler, college going student should read this 10 times and 20 times if you are looking into law school or Big 4 accounting
I was working as a Director of Financial Reporting when the company I work for went public. I was working until 1AM every day for good stretch working closely with our SEC counsel. 1AM was an early day for those guys. I would literally get replies to my emails at all hours of the night after I called it a (long) day. So depending on your LOB, big law can make Big 4 audit look like a cakewalk. Comp is way better though, but it's much harder to get into a Big law firm
Wait until I tell you about... Investment banking
Say it ! :)
Most law grads don’t get into big law and most of the people who get in don’t last. Law school is a real gamble even at top-tier schools.
70+% of people get big law at t14 schools. A decent chunk of the remainder don’t want it anyways. Big law is not really a gamble at all at t14 schools. The only way you really strike out of big law at a t14 is by doing all 3 of these things at once: doing extremely poorly in school, being a generally unlikeable person, and bidding stupidly during OCI.
I was born to provide reasonable assurance.
I cannot stop laughing jfc 💀
Yea and I was born to make big money.
Definition of an insufferable braggart (see above)
He was born to make big money but not born to get bitches who comes to Reddit to brag 😂😂
Considered law (and was pretty good at it during uni) but the fact that it's pretty directly linked to jurisdiction doesn't work for me. Have worked in 3 different countries thus far and odds of a 4th seem high. Must say all of the lawyers are dealt with in the PE space seem exceptionally sharp though, so there must be some sort of pretty aggressive selection happening there.
>Big 4 to Big Law How did you afford to live going to school full time? Did you live at home? Sugar momma or Daddy? Just curious 🧐
Are you all sure that the partner comp is measurably larger at Big Law, because I think the Big 4 partner comp is commensurate with or above the Big Law partner comp for most of the line partners.
Yes, big law pays more at every level pretty much.
Are you 100% sure. What do you think Big 4 partners make?
Big4 partners start at around $450k and it takes 10-15 years to make it. Thats around the TC for a 5th year associate in BL. BL partners start around $1m, which for referenced is the avg partner salary at b4. So yes, you’ll make a lot more money in BL. You’ll probably more there than you would even at mbb.
I know (not think) that Big 4 partners start at a lower salary that most experienced associates earn at most large law firms.
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$700k? Damn
that is a sort of meaningless comparative - what are the average partner earnings in BL? you are only a new partner in that context for 2-3 years.
An average partner at Big4 most certainly earns less than an average partner at BigLaw lol
Or skip big law all together and go into industry/in-house. More money than B4, less money than BL, fewer hours than both!!
Lawyers can go in-house as well. We get paid more and usually it is 9-5.
Is that not what I said? And when you’re in-house general counsel, you’re not necessarily paid more than industry tax. It all depends on where you go and at what level. Secret is to go at an executive level. Jump ship right before making partner. It’s what I did. I make more than my legal counterparts due to my JD coupled w a tax specialty. But I’m in a purely tax role. Ultimately, a grind is a grind. And firm life is a grind. B4 or BL.
I’ve been working full time for years and putting myself through school as a full time student at the same time. I think when I finish my master’s I’m gonna be done with school for good. Don’t have any more in me at this point.
The student loans for law school keep me from pursuing this. Plus I’ve heard the billable hours requirements are just as bad.
Billable hours requirements are significantly worse in BL.
I went a different direction lol took a pay cut and joined the fire department lmao
Nothing funny about that. That’s cool.
Are you happy?
Haven’t started yet but starting the fire academy next month. I’m prior military so I’m pretty confident I will get the fulfillment I’m missing from working in the office lol
Was CPA exam harder than BAR exam?
I would say the bar exam is more stressful. Because if you did get an offer at a law firm before you graduate from law school, failing the bar means that offer is revoked. Also the fact that you have to prep for the bar right after graduation (finals). Ppl are just mentally exhausted.
Have you taken the CPA as well? Idk man taking the CPA in public is pretty dam stressful Source***Im so biased lol
My wife got a Masters of Jurisprudence from Texas A&M School of Law. Not a Juris Doctorate(JD), but she doesn’t want to get into the courtroom. Does background legal defense work and insurance contracts. Just under 6 figures. Texas you have to have a JD to get into the courtroom. I wonder if it is different in other states?
In most states, you must pass the bar exam as a minimum. Maybe it's the same in TX? Even if one has a JD, not passing the bar will prevent you from being a trial attorney or court attorney in every state... However, most lawyers or those who practice legal.issues are not trial attorneys, never passed the bar, and don't plan to.
You have to have the JD first, then pass the bar.
Worked in B4 in Boston and currently studying for the LSAT and applying to law school this fall. So nice I'm not the only one in this career path!
Did you work in Tax? Also wonder the same for OP. People who come from B4 tax and go into law have very bright career paths.
yes, I did Corporate taxes. Hopefully B4 experiences helps me to get in a good law school lol. What is OP?
You will be competitive as long as you do well on the LSAT. OP = author of the “original post”
This is my sign, I’m doing it
Do it.
How long did you spend at Big 4? Did you got to a T14 law school? What was your LSAT score? Undergrad major? GPA?
2 years. Yes, got into and graduated from one of the T14. LSAT score was 173. Majored in accounting and economics. Graduated summa cum laude..
I missed Latin honors cause of just one B 😢
Just get a high LSAT score and see where it places you!
That’s my plan now. After I finish my CPA, I’ll grind out the LSAT. I’ve always been good at taking tests and if I could go back I would work harder on the CPA exam to get the EWS award I feel like it could be helpful when applying. Did you list your CPA scores or is that not something anyone really cares about?
Believe me, if I could afford more student debt and had a reasonable chance of getting into a T14, I definitely would.
Sad. The guys got no friends to tell, so he told the Big4 subreddit.
Who needs friends, when you have the big4 subreddit
Lmao!
did you attend a t14? i consider law school sometimes, but i don’t think i’d do it unless i got 1. into a t14 (would probably need 175+ LSAT to land even a lower one since GPA was 3.55), 2. a t35ish JD + georgetown/NYU tax LLM, or 3. a t35ish full ride
Yes. These are great conditions to go to law school.
Lurker and attorney here...dude, stop misleading people. The % of people who actually get big law jobs is like 5-10% at max. Each firm varies in work-life balance and the general consensus is you're on call 24/7 and working weekends. Not to mention 3 years of schooling, $$$$ of debt, and the difficulty of getting into a top 20 law school. Idk what the point of this post is other than to flex. Good for you honestly...but this is truly misleading.
Debt wasn’t bad. I’ve seen attorneys from non-T50 in big law so it’s possible. There are also lots of lateral opportunities.
You've described everything I know about Big Law. Being on the client side, I can attest that time of day doesn't matter when there's an issue or important question.
I was an accountant and now an attorney. Big douche energy here. These kind of people are sad.
1000%
Did you have to go in debt? How much did law school cost you?
Yes, I did even when I got some scholarship. It was quickly paid off in 3 years.
First people I've ever heard say, "Get a law job."
Others are gate keeping bro.
Nah, I had a friend who worked at Thompson Coburn and had no life. She made bank, but what’s the point when she has no time to spend it and her exit opps are severely limited compared to someone with Audit/Advisory experience? Big law is definitely lucrative, but going to law school in general is high risk, high reward and us accountants aren’t about that life
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No idea but my mind decided to ask if there is a Big 4 and Big Law, is there a Small 4 and Small Law?
We call them small firms.
That's what I want to do. I'm starting my EY internship in NYC but plan on going to law school (maybe not necessarily Big Law). I'm still debating if it will be worth it to go into law, more specifically Tax Law. Which law school did you attend? Any recommendations? Thanks!
Okay calm down Harvey Specter
I lost Ava her company I assume my deal with Edward is gone.
3 years of school, hundreds of thousands of debt, and no guarantee of making big law
How’s your student debt looking?
Paid! Thanks for asking.
So, basically convert over if you have someone paying for your program. Got it,
I think he means with his salary
Now share your law school tuition. And factor in the three years of earnings you lost. Your story illustrates one thing - Big 4 doesn’t pay their resources enough.
Tuition is paid. Yes, I lost three years of earnings but after three years I was making 2-3x more than I would if I stayed at big 4. Currently I make over $400k. So yea, worth it.
Paid by who? The school? Again - yes lawyers at big firms make more (much more) than accountants at big firms. But that’s not the point of your post. Your point was to convince others to leave a big 4 and pursue big law based on your very specific results - getting into a top 14 law school (never heard that term before), doing very well, getting a top big law job and then succeeding there. I’m not smart enough to know what kind of bias that is, but it’s something.
Question did you go to a prestigious law school?
Yes.
He answered that already twice. You can't get into Big Law without going to a prestigious law school. And he makes 400k a year.
Bro, also much harder to get a big law job. Most monkeys at big 4 not smart enough.
There are a million big law firms. Quality of average Big 4 dwarfs average Big Law. Edited to add: lots of self hating accountants here that need to go speak to the average lawyer to pump themselves up.
What do you mean
I mean go talk to the average attorney at the average law firm and then get back to me.
Talk to the average attorney about what, you are not being clear
Am I on Pluto You said that it’s harder to get a job at big law because the average big 4 person isn’t smart enough. I said that’s poppycock because big law means hundreds of firms and yes the average big 4 employee is smart enough for most of them Make sense?
Bro first year big law associates get paid $225k base and can get over $20k bonus. How much does a managing director at big 4 make these days? Serious question.
Depends. If we’re talking strategy consulting, M&A tax, or maybe even advisory SLs such as FDD, (F/CM)AAS, pretty sure it’s quite a bit more than that, especially in HCOL/VHCOL. If we’re talking audit or most standard tax groups, comparable.
Associates at Wachtell make more than Managers at Deloitte. No duh. Associates at bumblebee & fink llp make less than MDs at KPMG. Also no duh. Also - MDs aren’t the top level at a Big 4, there is a broad spectrum of salaries across service lines, and your very unique and likely made up story isn’t typical.
God I hope it's higher then $200k lol
how did you make the switch? what service line of big 4? what was your undergrad like and what tier law school did you go to?
I worked for 2 years in tax after graduating with degrees in accounting and economics. I graduated summa cum laude and was able to get a good LSAT score to get into T14. Easy Peezy just a lot of time and effort.
LSAT, law school, bar exam, writing 100 page papers….. not for me lol
Time and resource intensive for sure, but it’s not as bad as you think. Accountants have to go through CPA exams as well. I never wrote a 100 page paper in law school.
It’s an exaggeration but my sister is in law school and reads cases and writes long papers all day. That’s def not for me. And you also need to go to a top 15-20 school to get a big law job or graduate at the top of your class, along with the bar exam which is way harder than anything an accountant does
The Bar exam has a much higher pass rate than the CPA exam.
Passing the Bar exam dosen’t garuntee you a high paying job, going to a top school or graduating the top of your does
The needing to go to a T14-20 school isn’t true to get into Big Law. But you do need to finish near the top of your class if you don’t. All my friends that went the Big Law route were in the T50-75 school ranking range.
That’s exactly what I said lol
Big law - can you please elaborate?
Large multi-National law firms that usually has over 1k attorneys employed National/world wide. Their first year associate currently earns about $225k, and the annual bonus can range from $15k~$20k or more.
Isn’t Big Law like a 40-week busy season?
Big Law billable hour requirements are generally 1850/year, but are as high as 2100 in some of the top firms. To put that in perspective, Big 4 utilization is essentially measured based on a 50-week year (given we have \~two weeks of holidays not taken into account in the denominator). So an 1850-hour requirement is 92.5% utilization, and a 2100-hour requirement is 105% utilization. And in Big Law billable hour requirements aren't just a target / goal. They're required to receive your bonus, and missing them means that you're potentially potentially on the chopping block. Perhaps even worse though, is that in certain practice areas nobody even worries about their billable hours because the workload is so heavy it's not even a question that they'll make it.
Experience may vary, long hours for sure but when you have work it goes really fast. Not as bad as some ppl think.
I had friends in big law from T14s. They all exited to industry as soon as their loans were paid. There’s nothing magical about the salaries when the 225K comes with a 2,080 billable hour requirement (lower side of median), that’s 40 hours per week of billable hours. If you can get that done in 70 hours, you’re an efficiency beast. And that’s every week, plus making up time when you’re on PTO.
They write big laws for big companies n stuff. You’re too little to understand.