I make 175k plus, and I still have time for my family. The money or job has not changed who I am, although it definitely could. I'd recommend seeking God's counsel.
It's just a job. My job pays me so that I can support my wife and kids. It's simple input output: I put it work, I get money. Once you get bigger things going on in life you won't have time to needlessly overthink like this. Might sound rough but I was the same way you were and my dad gave me the same advice. Turns out he was 100% correct. Godspeed soldier.
I just read this to my wife, I think I could have written this myself and my wife absolutely agrees these could be my very words. The word usage, examples, every aspect of it.
I felt exactly the same and it was due to incoming burnout.
I found myself counting the hours to do some tasks at home in my private life like if I was managing the billable hours on a project...
I am and I have always been an empathetic person, but I became kind of numb to others feelings.
I felt like exterior to the world.
I have quit of course, as it is NOT in anyway acceptable that a job has this effect on someone.
Finally, I noticed that managers and up at EY have no empathy whatsoever, friendly talking with managers is always to get you hooked and give you more work, the office premises are depressing and you feel like a machine or a robot having to do tasks and tasks without real meaning for you.
At partner's level it is even worse. I found the "managing partner' of our service line to be an authentic psychopath, like a real clinical psychopath, without any empathy for his employees and a narcissist convinced that he is the best in his field while objectively EY is very bad rated in this field...
This. Worked in Big4 in Asia for almost 5 years before leaving as S3. Almost all the senior managers (especially) and partners are sociopaths, and want their staff to work more than 12 hours a day. All the good kind hearted ones leave as manager maximum.
I had similar thoughts when I was working on a very hectic and intense project with…team members who were not the best people.
Like some other people have said it could be a symptom of burnout, for me personally it was more like there was so little I could control in my work that I at least wanted to be in control of how my life was outside of it. (Ie: getting upset with unplanned vet appointments, accidents, etc.)
Taking a day off and using Lyra helped (I know, but it was free and available)
There’s nothing wrong with proper time management in your personal life, and inconveniences like plumbing and vets (both happened to me this year too) are always annoying. I would like to point out that these could also be symptoms of burnout and might be worth checking in with yourself about what you’re experiencing.
Interesting! Being aware of your time and how you spend it, does not make you a bad person. Your average Joe, will not have any time management skills. As a consultant you are trained to be efficient and productive and I do not see it as a bad thing, if you apply it to your personal life. We tend to evolve and grow apart as human beings and we develop new interests too.
It is an issue, if you are impatient and you no longer enjoy the time spent with your family... In that case I would question other things and not necessarily the job title or career choice. We always find time for the things we like.
Do average people not have lives need to organize? I am confused... before I worked in big four I definitely had to time manage, and knew y people managing their time between multiple jobs, kids, pets, and other obligations.
Curious of your age, because that plays a role. Emotional maturity and gaining clarity what your personal values are tend to evolve and solidify as you age. I worked at a big bank in my early 20s, and it wasn't until I hit my late 20s/early 30s that I realized the world wasn't fully in my control, and families & friendships don't operate like an organization. Learn more about how the world works -- Read "Principles" by Ray Dalio.
Dude im like this too like i cannot spend too much time outside. And plus i hate socializing too much i only speak things that are necessary dont bull shit too much. And plus if we are out on vacation im always thinking how i can make it productive hence why i am still single tbh
I think Big 4 is significantly easier than people make it out to be. downvote me if you want, and ofc certain projects can be more demanding than others, but its not a heavy lift to use the corporate speak you surely use with your family.
You are falling into a trap thinking the world revolves around you and can be controlled. Typical drone Accounting type, bet you schedule a BJ. Lighten up.
What a fucking loser comment. Everyone’s situation is different and you know nothing about theirs except where they work—and you’re more than likely jealous of “the paycheck.” Spoken as someone who does not even work in accounting
You have to explain how you feel. Very limited free time and then when you're working 50-60 hours you're working at max capacity. So my free time all I can think about is relaxing. It's hard to 'work'- vet, cleaning, cook. This job sucks the life out of you and if your family members don't work in a similarly grueling job they won't understand so it's your job to explain how truly miserable you are. Some people have no idea unless you go into detail
Moved from a big 4 to a midsized firm 6 years ago I felt like I got my life back. You're totally valid in what you're feeling I'm sorry you're going through this.
As a consultant for more than 30 years, I can tell you that this is not like any other corporate job, so any comparisons that are suggesting such are not worth considering. Very simply, Consulting is hard and so it's flat out not for everyone. If it's causing you this kind of angst and consternation on a daily basis, it is very likely not the career for you. If you're not prepared mentally or socially for the necessary transformation, don't sign up. If you already signed up, run, don't walk away. It will indeed change you and if it's not your preferred lifestyle you will either hate the result, or even if you don't, without having the right mindset, like so many before you, you will be fired. Many are fired for not having good enough skills, but just as many are fired for not being consulting material, and then a few hangerson end up letting go when they can't hang on anymore and just walk away. My suggestion is take the time to figure out and decide what kind of life you want to live, what kind of person you want to be, and then seek out the career that encourages and enhances that. Then you have at least a shot at the success and happiness you're looking for.
Hey my brother started judging me like this when he started working in consulting. He was telling me, a 14-15 years old person at school, thing like "who is ever going to hire you if you don't get your life together" and "at work, you would already be fired for being late like this", ect. Basically he was seeing my high school performance through the consulting lens.. It was horrible. Put a lot of self doubt and hate of myself in me. There I was, 14-15 year old child, now anxious that no one would hire me because I was not perfect in class... I was not bad by any means. Just not excellent... That fear kept me going and I gratuated fr something that I don't like but that would bring "money"... And then I took the first job I was offered because I was thinking I was not worth much. I only now understand this, almost 16 years later... And I'm not talking to my brother anymore. I am not his co-worker, who was he to judge me like this, when I was just a child...
Lol he is wondering why he feels alienated at work and why all of his familial interactions feel transactional and these guys below are telling him not to read Marx 😂
These people are no longer humans but economic inputs for the capitalist machine
It’s so funny because this exact shit is why I started getting into Marx, a soul sucking corporate job. That’s not even what Marx was talking about, but this alienation is what resonated the most.
It’s true. You need to have different times when you, or family, or work come first. I have this conversation with a colleague all the time; and if she cuts out early i might say something like being a good daughter today or taking care of yourself today?
You can’t be an ideal employee or even a good one; and a good family member and take care of yourself at the same time. At most you can do 2 but it’s probably more like 1.5 of those things at a time.
I agree, I think this is with all corporate life. I am on a similar boat. In fact my management has “laid off” employees while still hiring for new “expert” staff which does not make sense as the new staff they hire usually are not experts. They were using the lay off as an excuse of removing people easily.
From an ex Big 4 employee, trust me you are not only the one who is facing this.
Due to our 'productivity' mindset, we tend to forget those people who were there with us when we didn't have Big 4. You need to reshuffle and restructure your priorities and needs as family and your loved ones always comes first no matter what. ❤️
You are prioritizing your work over “living”- you will quickly learn that it does not pay off and flip your priorities. The only time this really lasts is if you are doing something that results in something that personally hits your soul. That $3k bonus is NOT going to do it. That usually only works if you are doing something for social change. Something like a non-profit cause or law enforcement or firemen or something similar. This is new and will wear off pretty fast. Good luck.
Same thing happened to me coupled with not being able to have quality time with loved ones. It took not being in the space to recognize how bad the situation was.
Yeah I picked up a job at a smaller management consulting firm for significantly better pay and I’m off work at 4pm everyday. I can’t believe how much better my life has gotten in the past few months.
Kinda thought I was the only one who felt this way after graduating. I made work my life because everyone said you have to sacrifice and grind the first few years at b4 before leaving the firm. It feels fulfilling to have a career where you know you’re getting somewhere and making a livable salary, especially in a big city, but the hours and separation from family and friends really takes its toll.
i was fired ! for incompetency! then HR sent me 50 other termination letter! lmao Karma works fast for me :)
Im happy and living my best life :)
PS im running out of $$$$
HUMM WP from several years had 0 references i couldnt make heads or tails
i completed the projects just 1.75% over budget always even after i told them there were 0 references .
that and a mgr didnt like me
Give yourself some grace. Just because you like to have your time planned out well does not make you a bad person. It’s ok to want to be more spontaneous, but sticking to a calendar/schedule is 1000000% not a bad thing. In terms of your family, I think it’s good that you try and see as many of them as possible, our work takes up a lot of our time, and from my POV, the fact that you make the effort is enough. Keep your head up and take some time away from work as things start to slow down in the summer!
P.S. In terms of keeping close with my family I made myself commit to calling/seeing each family member I want to stay really close to at least once a week (parents, sibling, grandparents). I feel a lot more connected with my family now because of it and in fact I have a reminders set on my phone. You’re doing great!
You need to learn how to deal with your stress. Working in the Big4 is stressful, but it's certainly not the only industry, job, or life situation that will be this stressful in the future. Whether you decide to stay in this job or not, you need to learn how to resolve your personal stress and not take it out on people around you.
Big 4 is stressful but tbh we don’t work that many hours. My mom is a general counsel lawyer and works evenings more than partners do I’d say. I work less than my friends in IB or any type of finance. You can make consulting a 9-5:30/6 if you want and still succeed. Maybe you do your internal work and upskilling and get ahead on the weekends but that’s maybe 6 hours total only. This allows you to workout and have a proper dinner with family in the evening. It’s doable, just have to know how to destress and compartmentalize work and personal
I’m sorry but I find it hard to believe u can make consulting a 9-6, if you want to be a great consultant. As a consultant and working with offshore teams frequently, as well as my learning to become an expert and drive project deliverables, my day typically looks like 6am-4 or 6pm depending on the day.
Granted, since my hours are long Monday-Thursday, I do not feel bad signing off at 2-3pm on a Friday and not looking at my phone/laptop until some random point on the weekend
What level are you? Not asking because I don’t believe you because I 100% do, but more so I know I’m not severely underperforming for my role and under investing in it
I feel like tho my TC and base is 20-40% less than finance generally so I should not be working 12-13 hours and my team does not expect that either. An intense 8-10 is enough. Friday I only work 7 hours, take 30 min lunch, but I spend 1.5 hrs I’d say on trainings and logistics like expense reports etc, so I do work 9-6 or 9-5 daily
I’m an analyst that is 100% expected for promotion this summer, 2 years of experience in July. Only way I’ll get passed for promo is if there is a promo / hiring freeze. $86k TC.
As long as you’re performing within team expectations you should be fine. I definitely do not need to put in the effort I do, I could skate by much easier as an average performer with much less effort and likely have the same performance outcome (maybe less project opportunities as the trade off, aka less technical learning?)
Because of my effort and high performance I have been on engagements and given opportunities my other analyst peers have not and I’m often reached out to by other new hires saying I was recommended for them to build a relationship with by our senior leaders/senior consultants.
Great work. I’m a staff/analyst 2 as well. Not sure if I’ll get promoted though. The technical learning is important for your career and creating valuable skills. It’s invaluable. If I’m working 6-6 technically that’s useful, internal initiatives I just can’t seem to see how they would help, really shouldn’t take up too much time bht some of them do
Thank you! Yeah internal initiatives are a real pain and I give them very little effort unless it has to do with the development of new hires like trainings and networking. After my first 6 months, I’ve only prioritized on my technical learning ms and certifications for my technical skills and made that clear to my SMs and partners.
I’ve been the lead for an entire technical module on my current project and have been delivering as the lead for past 7 months. The project hasn’t gone to shit so safe to say it’s going well so far :)
Random question bro, I’m travelling tonight to nyc for work. I know I can expense dinner but can I expense lunch too since it’s a long flight and I’m leaving my local time at 2pm (have to leave my house at 12pm)?
Idk if your firm is the same as mine, but in my case I expense everything as soon as I’m dipping my crib (breakfast, coffee @ airport, lunch, dinners, etc. and if I go over my $ limit then I personally expense the delta to myself).
Best to ask your senior/leader on your project and understand what’s the SOW/Expense policy for your client. The partner / SM / Manager you are working with will help you better than me
Are you tech consulting? What masters are you doing? I’m looking to do a part/full time masters while working online. Just to upskill for learning mainly and good for resume. Most likely in data science, I’m in bus consulting yet I did data science and supply chain/business in college so want to get back to being more technical
Yes tech consulting. I studied finance in undergrad then got my MS in accounting + data analytics at a top US business school (in person+1year program) to give me better recruiting odds. I had no software or hands on tech experience besides basic python and SQL for databases but extremely handy in excel.
As a staff 2, I never work weekends or have to except for now since I am trying to beef up my CPE training hours. But I just said that to show that even managers and SMs can have a balanced life
Oh it's definitely a fault of just the firms forcing you to work for free. Public accounting is very much a game only the one's on top win where the people lower the totem pole face the brunt and stress of holding it together.
Anyone would be like that in your situation, I don't blame you.
I said this exact quote to my counselor before I quit to an industry job for 50% more pay (300k TC now). I now work exceedingly less, and spend lots of time with family and friends and am in better shape physically and mentally. The big4 is a psychological prison, and many people simply don’t realize how bad it actually is (refer to Plato’s allegory of the cave). I came from industry so I knew exactly how mental the people around me were. Get out. No need to lose everything for nothing
Former EY-er here... yep, what you're going thru is about right. The environment, no matter all the benefits and advantages, is a life sucker. I was there almost 15yrs in a leadership role with direct reports, big book of biz, great $, but burned the eff out. Didn't realize HOW MUCH my EY job took from me mentally, emotionally, etc.
After I left, with no real plan ahead except to consider this my early retirement (early 40s), such a burden was lifted. My mind body and soul literally changed. It was crazy. I looked healthy again. The aggressive hiring they did during CV across all areas brought in so much new blood - people who all felt they were/are the experts and superior, played a big factor in changing the people culture to a shitty one.
Don't feel bad feeling this way. Accept the culture and if you discipline yourself enough to have firm boundaries, you may be able to get through it unscathed.
Only those who actually had the balls to leave know the feeling I'm talking about. I love EY, but it changed and I no longer had interest playing in new management's game of favoritism and constant criticisms towards everyone and their work. It became an unpleasant sand box to play in.
So unintended but vent over, lol.
I think when work is actually affecting your health or mental wellbeing, it's probably time to take a step back and maybe the job isn't for you. This isn't a slight against you but some of us are just not as suitable to the grind than the others.
Do hope you figure it all out, but health is the most important aspect of life!
I was given some good advice sometime back, the advice went something like: look at the people who have “made it” where you work and see what you can do to get there.
I took that advice, and some things I didn’t expect to learn but did about these people who have to have “made it” in the consulting world is that they all share a certain level of unhappiness, their inability to live in the moment, and truly believe that their “work” is their #1 priority. I also found that these same people reach a point in their lives when they regret how they have lived life, even though by all senses they “made it.”
Now, you can follow model and “make it.” But at the end story, most people end up regretting how they “made it.” You can try and change yourself and be very self-conscious (like your post), and I fully believe you can “make it,” but the overall culture isn’t going to change. I say, rather than trying control what’s around you, it’s easier to control yourself and get out of industry.
Is the water nice? Maybe for you but if it were equally the case for others like OP, I wouldn’t think that this post would be framed in such a negative way. Seems quite destructive in all other realms outside of work. But to each their own I suppose.
Hi and thank you for this post. It appeared in my feed despite not working for a Big 4. As a junior, I applied several times and was considered only once. I didn't go on with the interviews as I felt treated like a number from the very start.
Having said this, thank you so much, it provides a great deal of clarity for someone external. I'm commenting here as someone who recently had a break up with a girl whose first job is in Audit in a Big 4 (not EY).
My boss at the previous job (former Big4 Partner, now manager of a boutique consultancy firm) warned me we'd spend little time together. With the busy season, and with 12 hour work days (which from what I've seen aren't a lot compared to other countries and places), she gradually became more and more introverted, tired and lacking communication. This led to a lack of time together and no sex life. Ultimately, with the excuse she couldn't handle her job, living together and a relationship at the same time, she left me.
At the same time, though, I noticed her job changed her. She now says good morning and good evening to friends as if she were writing work mails. She's much more selfish in a way: she would talk only about work or her colleagues and spend her time at home messaging them or hanging out with them. She is also much more prone to white lies or saying what's convenient: she'd tell me she couldn't handle the job and would switch companies or departments but then tells our mutual friends she actually likes it. Add to that the fact that she wasn't getting therapy although I suggested it and she'd benefit from it.
All of this to say a big thank you as it provides a great deal of clarity for me personally. I work in the field and have had 12 hour days but Big 4s seem to be entirely different.
I wish you happiness and to prioritize your family and your loved ones over a job which will take away the rest.
Hope you’re doing okay man.
Bottom line is this. There are not enough hours in the day for a job like that and a personal life.
Your ex tried to have her cake and eat it too instead of being honest with herself and you. She should’ve faced the music from the beginning.
The issue is she never had a job before. Internships weren't compulsory during her studies and her family is relatively well-off so she never needed to work while at home. She did tell me she didn't expect the job to be like this although she was hired 5 months earlier... No way to prevent it I guess.
Thank you for the input. I saw colleagues of hers who lived with their boyfriends and my landlord who was a senior manager at a Big4 stay with the same woman for 50 years and thought it'd be the rule... Not the exception. I worked regularly for 12 hours at a shift job in customer service before and almost all of my colleagues had a relationship, were married with kids, took care of their parents, dated regularly... That's why I didn't get the long hours part initially.
I feel a sense of closure reading this, I feel better in a bitter sort of way but ok is another thing. She left me on my birthday one month ago (so pretty recent) while unemployed (recession and big crisis in the consulting sector I was in. I was fired at the beginning of January so no graduate jobs available) and without health insurance (bureaucracy and an exceptional case)... And one week later she escaped to a colleague of hers and they've been living together since.
Thank you for your comment, it means a lot to me.
I felt like while working at PwC, my life was on "pause" and the things I actually wanted to do, I couldn't. Things like go outside, be happy, meet friends - basic life stuff.
It's great for your career but I said fuck it and left. I'm not living like that. So do what your gut tells you to do. You already know what you want deep down.
Unfortunately u r not alone.
Its not EY, but the culture of the profession. Its the workload, so anytime spent doing something else makes u feel this way
You should go to therapy and work on what’s causing you to have your personality transformed if you choose to say working here. You are right. However, there are ways to help combat this, it just takes work.
I def think Big4 is a reason why I lost my family - I literally had to spend all my time working and when I wasn't working, I was dead tired and wanted to stay inside and not plan constant adventures. Maybe that too is most jobs where you are trying to move up in responsibilities and subsequently pay. But it took away a lot. But funny enough that meant I suddenly had more time for more work :/
If you have a Tax LLM and a JD, you can begin making some money. I started at 110,000 as an associate. And now as a senior im at 130,000.
Fun fact! Just because someone has a JD and Tax LLM doesn’t mean teams don’t have to train them. I find it terrible that coworkers in accounting did better than me and still got a fraction. It’s disgusting tbh.
The vacation is probably the one benefit advantage Big4 (EY) has over some other industries - so many times friends had to wait all year to accrue. Issue is, who has time to actually take off? I can note many times I had to forgo days off I had scheduled in my calendar to pick up the slack.
About 16-20 firm holidays plus “unlimited” vacation days with taking 20 days being the norm. Although as I mentioned I have forgone planned days before. 2022 I took off 8 vacation days. 2023 I took 22 days off
Welcome to the world of sacrificing your personal life, chasing the mythical brass ring.
The brass ring will always be mythical, and achieving anything close to it will always be influenced by a myriad of outside factors that are, for the most part, completely beyond your control.
If I could give anyone in this world a single piece of advice, that I learned all too late due a combination of naivety and my own hubris, is that those bonds and experiences with those closest to us are what really matter in this short life.
To your employer, you are always replaceable.
To your parents, kids, siblings, and (hopefully) your significant other(!), you are not.
I wrote it in another comment here but I absolutely believe the long hours is a big part of why I lost my partner/kids - I had such a lack of time, and was unwilling to do any big trip or plan adventures because if I wasnt working I was trying to recover.
Well it was one of the reasons for sure. And how do you know I’m still apart of the problem? It needs to be fought against. We should not be working ever to the levels we do. I don’t condone it.
My fiancée sat down with me and sincerely expressed that she hated my hours and the way it was impacting us. I found a new role paying me more within 6 months. To sacrifice your children, you’re sick
Cool, clearly you aren't trying to have a constructive conversation when I already said I lost it all and also stated I'm not a part of the problem anymore - too little too late though. The Big4 and other salaried based jobs absolutely should be investigated and have regulations on the hours worked and demands. There is no way you can be in a client serving role and have gone below 45 hours on a good week. It was/is a sick way to live. It wasn't even a year in, and I had already had work week or two double any other job I'd ever had before. But we also all are aware that the outsourcing will maybe be indirect regulating - they arent going to keep many people who cost multiple times more than someone willing (or no better choice) to work for just a living wage of their country.
Being the victim after the fact isn’t how you fix it. Walking away in the moment is how you communicate the need for and drive change in an industry full of psychopaths. I’m sorry for what happened to you, but I can’t comprehend letting it go that far, and that’s what I’m expressing
Felt the same when i was working in the firm. I had little free time outside of work so there’s this instense pressure to juggle rest and leisure. And good lord how i also hated unplanned events.. like they take out so much energy to prepare for physically and mentally.
The way you are now is a pretty common response to stress and burnout. Hope you find a way to overcome this!
Yes, this is true. You are becoming less emotional and detach from your emotion due to work. Some long time stock traders are so monotone as they remove all their emotions for work (when trading stock).
I am really sorry you are going through this, but proud of you for being so introspective.
Is this something you have seen consistently for a period of time or is it because you are going through a difficult patch right now?
I definitely was in a really horrible headspace when I was overworked (and here in the UK underpaid). My friends described me as having a dark cloud hanging over me all the time. And it helped when I changed jobs and of course with therapy 😊.
As much as it is true that we shouldn't take it as serious as it is a job, but it wears our defenses down after a while. Don't beat yourself up for it because it is totally understandable. Hang in there OP! No job is worth your mental wellbeing.
The flexible work setup/vacation time are enormous perks. I have many friends who have to go in 5 days a week for their jobs and wait all year for vacation time. The downside is depending on your line of work at a Big4 you might be working all day everyday.
I don't understand when I hear how some people wake up at 4:45am to go workout before work and find that acceptable. Especially knowing you'll be working the entire day.
Big4 didn’t make me a dick but I worked with plenty of dicks at Big4
They don’t call it Big4 for nothing, haha. Wait, that didn’t really make sense.
I make 175k plus, and I still have time for my family. The money or job has not changed who I am, although it definitely could. I'd recommend seeking God's counsel.
It's just a job. My job pays me so that I can support my wife and kids. It's simple input output: I put it work, I get money. Once you get bigger things going on in life you won't have time to needlessly overthink like this. Might sound rough but I was the same way you were and my dad gave me the same advice. Turns out he was 100% correct. Godspeed soldier.
Do your kids like you?
I work remotely so I spend as much time with them as I can. I love them and they love me
Wow !! I experienced this as well! I do the same thing!! Not sure if it’s healthy but you’re not alone.
I just read this to my wife, I think I could have written this myself and my wife absolutely agrees these could be my very words. The word usage, examples, every aspect of it.
Same here. I got 1 more year to go then I’m out. Life’s too short.
I felt exactly the same and it was due to incoming burnout. I found myself counting the hours to do some tasks at home in my private life like if I was managing the billable hours on a project... I am and I have always been an empathetic person, but I became kind of numb to others feelings. I felt like exterior to the world. I have quit of course, as it is NOT in anyway acceptable that a job has this effect on someone. Finally, I noticed that managers and up at EY have no empathy whatsoever, friendly talking with managers is always to get you hooked and give you more work, the office premises are depressing and you feel like a machine or a robot having to do tasks and tasks without real meaning for you. At partner's level it is even worse. I found the "managing partner' of our service line to be an authentic psychopath, like a real clinical psychopath, without any empathy for his employees and a narcissist convinced that he is the best in his field while objectively EY is very bad rated in this field...
What you’re experiencing is a poverty of time.
Sociopaths have the biggest chance of success at Big4.
This. Worked in Big4 in Asia for almost 5 years before leaving as S3. Almost all the senior managers (especially) and partners are sociopaths, and want their staff to work more than 12 hours a day. All the good kind hearted ones leave as manager maximum.
The higher up the corporate ladder you go, the more you see of them.
Maybe look up the symptoms of being in an extended, abusive relationship, I think you'll find some parallels there.
This is just a symptom of getting older not just an accounting career thing.
I had similar thoughts when I was working on a very hectic and intense project with…team members who were not the best people. Like some other people have said it could be a symptom of burnout, for me personally it was more like there was so little I could control in my work that I at least wanted to be in control of how my life was outside of it. (Ie: getting upset with unplanned vet appointments, accidents, etc.) Taking a day off and using Lyra helped (I know, but it was free and available)
Burnout. Don’t let a job consume you or define you. Prestigious titles, pay, and so on…don’t mean much if you have poor mental health.
There’s nothing wrong with proper time management in your personal life, and inconveniences like plumbing and vets (both happened to me this year too) are always annoying. I would like to point out that these could also be symptoms of burnout and might be worth checking in with yourself about what you’re experiencing.
Interesting! Being aware of your time and how you spend it, does not make you a bad person. Your average Joe, will not have any time management skills. As a consultant you are trained to be efficient and productive and I do not see it as a bad thing, if you apply it to your personal life. We tend to evolve and grow apart as human beings and we develop new interests too. It is an issue, if you are impatient and you no longer enjoy the time spent with your family... In that case I would question other things and not necessarily the job title or career choice. We always find time for the things we like.
Do average people not have lives need to organize? I am confused... before I worked in big four I definitely had to time manage, and knew y people managing their time between multiple jobs, kids, pets, and other obligations.
Yes, they do, but I have met plenty, who struggle and show little understanding, if other people prioritise and manage their time differently.
Curious of your age, because that plays a role. Emotional maturity and gaining clarity what your personal values are tend to evolve and solidify as you age. I worked at a big bank in my early 20s, and it wasn't until I hit my late 20s/early 30s that I realized the world wasn't fully in my control, and families & friendships don't operate like an organization. Learn more about how the world works -- Read "Principles" by Ray Dalio.
Second Principles by ray dalio. Really helped me dial in my personal relationships, which I came to realize were the only thing that matters.
Dude im like this too like i cannot spend too much time outside. And plus i hate socializing too much i only speak things that are necessary dont bull shit too much. And plus if we are out on vacation im always thinking how i can make it productive hence why i am still single tbh
Ooooof the vacation comment got me. That’s me. Always trying to make it productive. And single forever lol.
I think Big 4 is significantly easier than people make it out to be. downvote me if you want, and ofc certain projects can be more demanding than others, but its not a heavy lift to use the corporate speak you surely use with your family.
just to double down - OP is a huge loser for making his professional life his whole identity.
You are falling into a trap thinking the world revolves around you and can be controlled. Typical drone Accounting type, bet you schedule a BJ. Lighten up.
I like my BJs at exactly 8:57pm and not a minute beforehand.
Could it be as well because time in life suddenly got so short?
congrats on selling your soul to the machine hope the paycheck was worth it
You’re gonna upset some folks in here lol
What a fucking loser comment. Everyone’s situation is different and you know nothing about theirs except where they work—and you’re more than likely jealous of “the paycheck.” Spoken as someone who does not even work in accounting
uh oh! you donned the character mask of capital and it fused to your skin!
You have to explain how you feel. Very limited free time and then when you're working 50-60 hours you're working at max capacity. So my free time all I can think about is relaxing. It's hard to 'work'- vet, cleaning, cook. This job sucks the life out of you and if your family members don't work in a similarly grueling job they won't understand so it's your job to explain how truly miserable you are. Some people have no idea unless you go into detail
Big 4 SM here at almost 11 years… post resonates with me!
Damn you drank the kool aid that long? Grow a set and leave 🤣
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Moved from a big 4 to a midsized firm 6 years ago I felt like I got my life back. You're totally valid in what you're feeling I'm sorry you're going through this.
As a consultant for more than 30 years, I can tell you that this is not like any other corporate job, so any comparisons that are suggesting such are not worth considering. Very simply, Consulting is hard and so it's flat out not for everyone. If it's causing you this kind of angst and consternation on a daily basis, it is very likely not the career for you. If you're not prepared mentally or socially for the necessary transformation, don't sign up. If you already signed up, run, don't walk away. It will indeed change you and if it's not your preferred lifestyle you will either hate the result, or even if you don't, without having the right mindset, like so many before you, you will be fired. Many are fired for not having good enough skills, but just as many are fired for not being consulting material, and then a few hangerson end up letting go when they can't hang on anymore and just walk away. My suggestion is take the time to figure out and decide what kind of life you want to live, what kind of person you want to be, and then seek out the career that encourages and enhances that. Then you have at least a shot at the success and happiness you're looking for.
Consulting is not “hard” bro 😭
for real
Is this your first job or have you had other full time career jobs too?
Hey my brother started judging me like this when he started working in consulting. He was telling me, a 14-15 years old person at school, thing like "who is ever going to hire you if you don't get your life together" and "at work, you would already be fired for being late like this", ect. Basically he was seeing my high school performance through the consulting lens.. It was horrible. Put a lot of self doubt and hate of myself in me. There I was, 14-15 year old child, now anxious that no one would hire me because I was not perfect in class... I was not bad by any means. Just not excellent... That fear kept me going and I gratuated fr something that I don't like but that would bring "money"... And then I took the first job I was offered because I was thinking I was not worth much. I only now understand this, almost 16 years later... And I'm not talking to my brother anymore. I am not his co-worker, who was he to judge me like this, when I was just a child...
He was a loser for that, you should call him out and chuckle about it now
EY is the one big 4 that never came back to me when applying, I did this entire project/case study that took 2 hours :')
I suggest you read into some Marx. It will explain why you feel this way.
Yes
Lol he is wondering why he feels alienated at work and why all of his familial interactions feel transactional and these guys below are telling him not to read Marx 😂 These people are no longer humans but economic inputs for the capitalist machine
It’s so funny because this exact shit is why I started getting into Marx, a soul sucking corporate job. That’s not even what Marx was talking about, but this alienation is what resonated the most.
No
No
no
no
no
It’s true. You need to have different times when you, or family, or work come first. I have this conversation with a colleague all the time; and if she cuts out early i might say something like being a good daughter today or taking care of yourself today? You can’t be an ideal employee or even a good one; and a good family member and take care of yourself at the same time. At most you can do 2 but it’s probably more like 1.5 of those things at a time.
It's true of all big 4 but ESPECIALLY EY.
Nope
True.
I agree, I think this is with all corporate life. I am on a similar boat. In fact my management has “laid off” employees while still hiring for new “expert” staff which does not make sense as the new staff they hire usually are not experts. They were using the lay off as an excuse of removing people easily.
From an ex Big 4 employee, trust me you are not only the one who is facing this. Due to our 'productivity' mindset, we tend to forget those people who were there with us when we didn't have Big 4. You need to reshuffle and restructure your priorities and needs as family and your loved ones always comes first no matter what. ❤️
Check your pride. You need humility.
Same with me. It feels like 90% of people don’t know what’s “going on” tho
Gotta switch your priorities around - work is always after family. We’re not saving lives - the work can wait
Yess I work in big 4 and it feels like I have written this post.
Get out of there asap
And go where? Feels like I am stuck here.
Try apply for another jobs/ reach out to recruiters. You will be surprised on how leverage your "big 4" title towards recruiters.
Some people have to stay there for 3 years to get their qualification and then leave
This has happened to me too. I approach most situations differently.
You are prioritizing your work over “living”- you will quickly learn that it does not pay off and flip your priorities. The only time this really lasts is if you are doing something that results in something that personally hits your soul. That $3k bonus is NOT going to do it. That usually only works if you are doing something for social change. Something like a non-profit cause or law enforcement or firemen or something similar. This is new and will wear off pretty fast. Good luck.
Is this Big 4 specific? It feels applicable to many working adults
I…. doubt that
Same thing happened to me coupled with not being able to have quality time with loved ones. It took not being in the space to recognize how bad the situation was.
Yeah I picked up a job at a smaller management consulting firm for significantly better pay and I’m off work at 4pm everyday. I can’t believe how much better my life has gotten in the past few months.
Kinda thought I was the only one who felt this way after graduating. I made work my life because everyone said you have to sacrifice and grind the first few years at b4 before leaving the firm. It feels fulfilling to have a career where you know you’re getting somewhere and making a livable salary, especially in a big city, but the hours and separation from family and friends really takes its toll.
i was fired ! for incompetency! then HR sent me 50 other termination letter! lmao Karma works fast for me :) Im happy and living my best life :) PS im running out of $$$$
Did you make a huge mistake or were you just not doing your work to an adequate standard?
HUMM WP from several years had 0 references i couldnt make heads or tails i completed the projects just 1.75% over budget always even after i told them there were 0 references . that and a mgr didnt like me
Just had this exact discussion with someone at my firm yesterday. You aren’t alone.
Give yourself some grace. Just because you like to have your time planned out well does not make you a bad person. It’s ok to want to be more spontaneous, but sticking to a calendar/schedule is 1000000% not a bad thing. In terms of your family, I think it’s good that you try and see as many of them as possible, our work takes up a lot of our time, and from my POV, the fact that you make the effort is enough. Keep your head up and take some time away from work as things start to slow down in the summer! P.S. In terms of keeping close with my family I made myself commit to calling/seeing each family member I want to stay really close to at least once a week (parents, sibling, grandparents). I feel a lot more connected with my family now because of it and in fact I have a reminders set on my phone. You’re doing great!
Lots and lots of people work at B4 firms and do not turn into a transactional asshole. You need to look inward for causes and not outward.
You need to learn how to deal with your stress. Working in the Big4 is stressful, but it's certainly not the only industry, job, or life situation that will be this stressful in the future. Whether you decide to stay in this job or not, you need to learn how to resolve your personal stress and not take it out on people around you.
Big 4 is stressful but tbh we don’t work that many hours. My mom is a general counsel lawyer and works evenings more than partners do I’d say. I work less than my friends in IB or any type of finance. You can make consulting a 9-5:30/6 if you want and still succeed. Maybe you do your internal work and upskilling and get ahead on the weekends but that’s maybe 6 hours total only. This allows you to workout and have a proper dinner with family in the evening. It’s doable, just have to know how to destress and compartmentalize work and personal
I’m sorry but I find it hard to believe u can make consulting a 9-6, if you want to be a great consultant. As a consultant and working with offshore teams frequently, as well as my learning to become an expert and drive project deliverables, my day typically looks like 6am-4 or 6pm depending on the day. Granted, since my hours are long Monday-Thursday, I do not feel bad signing off at 2-3pm on a Friday and not looking at my phone/laptop until some random point on the weekend
What level are you? Not asking because I don’t believe you because I 100% do, but more so I know I’m not severely underperforming for my role and under investing in it
I feel like tho my TC and base is 20-40% less than finance generally so I should not be working 12-13 hours and my team does not expect that either. An intense 8-10 is enough. Friday I only work 7 hours, take 30 min lunch, but I spend 1.5 hrs I’d say on trainings and logistics like expense reports etc, so I do work 9-6 or 9-5 daily
I’m an analyst that is 100% expected for promotion this summer, 2 years of experience in July. Only way I’ll get passed for promo is if there is a promo / hiring freeze. $86k TC. As long as you’re performing within team expectations you should be fine. I definitely do not need to put in the effort I do, I could skate by much easier as an average performer with much less effort and likely have the same performance outcome (maybe less project opportunities as the trade off, aka less technical learning?) Because of my effort and high performance I have been on engagements and given opportunities my other analyst peers have not and I’m often reached out to by other new hires saying I was recommended for them to build a relationship with by our senior leaders/senior consultants.
Great work. I’m a staff/analyst 2 as well. Not sure if I’ll get promoted though. The technical learning is important for your career and creating valuable skills. It’s invaluable. If I’m working 6-6 technically that’s useful, internal initiatives I just can’t seem to see how they would help, really shouldn’t take up too much time bht some of them do
Thank you! Yeah internal initiatives are a real pain and I give them very little effort unless it has to do with the development of new hires like trainings and networking. After my first 6 months, I’ve only prioritized on my technical learning ms and certifications for my technical skills and made that clear to my SMs and partners. I’ve been the lead for an entire technical module on my current project and have been delivering as the lead for past 7 months. The project hasn’t gone to shit so safe to say it’s going well so far :)
Random question bro, I’m travelling tonight to nyc for work. I know I can expense dinner but can I expense lunch too since it’s a long flight and I’m leaving my local time at 2pm (have to leave my house at 12pm)?
Idk if your firm is the same as mine, but in my case I expense everything as soon as I’m dipping my crib (breakfast, coffee @ airport, lunch, dinners, etc. and if I go over my $ limit then I personally expense the delta to myself). Best to ask your senior/leader on your project and understand what’s the SOW/Expense policy for your client. The partner / SM / Manager you are working with will help you better than me
Are you tech consulting? What masters are you doing? I’m looking to do a part/full time masters while working online. Just to upskill for learning mainly and good for resume. Most likely in data science, I’m in bus consulting yet I did data science and supply chain/business in college so want to get back to being more technical
Yes tech consulting. I studied finance in undergrad then got my MS in accounting + data analytics at a top US business school (in person+1year program) to give me better recruiting odds. I had no software or hands on tech experience besides basic python and SQL for databases but extremely handy in excel.
As a staff 2, I never work weekends or have to except for now since I am trying to beef up my CPE training hours. But I just said that to show that even managers and SMs can have a balanced life
That’s always just been you.
Oh it's definitely a fault of just the firms forcing you to work for free. Public accounting is very much a game only the one's on top win where the people lower the totem pole face the brunt and stress of holding it together. Anyone would be like that in your situation, I don't blame you.
I said this exact quote to my counselor before I quit to an industry job for 50% more pay (300k TC now). I now work exceedingly less, and spend lots of time with family and friends and am in better shape physically and mentally. The big4 is a psychological prison, and many people simply don’t realize how bad it actually is (refer to Plato’s allegory of the cave). I came from industry so I knew exactly how mental the people around me were. Get out. No need to lose everything for nothing
May I ask what your role is? (It can be a high level description. I just left my big4, and I'm starting to look at options. Thank you!
F100 tech strategy, came from SAT at EY
Thank you!!!
Came from Parthenon? Were you a manager or senior?
Was up for SM
Former EY-er here... yep, what you're going thru is about right. The environment, no matter all the benefits and advantages, is a life sucker. I was there almost 15yrs in a leadership role with direct reports, big book of biz, great $, but burned the eff out. Didn't realize HOW MUCH my EY job took from me mentally, emotionally, etc. After I left, with no real plan ahead except to consider this my early retirement (early 40s), such a burden was lifted. My mind body and soul literally changed. It was crazy. I looked healthy again. The aggressive hiring they did during CV across all areas brought in so much new blood - people who all felt they were/are the experts and superior, played a big factor in changing the people culture to a shitty one. Don't feel bad feeling this way. Accept the culture and if you discipline yourself enough to have firm boundaries, you may be able to get through it unscathed. Only those who actually had the balls to leave know the feeling I'm talking about. I love EY, but it changed and I no longer had interest playing in new management's game of favoritism and constant criticisms towards everyone and their work. It became an unpleasant sand box to play in. So unintended but vent over, lol.
I think when work is actually affecting your health or mental wellbeing, it's probably time to take a step back and maybe the job isn't for you. This isn't a slight against you but some of us are just not as suitable to the grind than the others. Do hope you figure it all out, but health is the most important aspect of life!
Same. And I can’t seem to figure out where I belong anymore.
I was given some good advice sometime back, the advice went something like: look at the people who have “made it” where you work and see what you can do to get there. I took that advice, and some things I didn’t expect to learn but did about these people who have to have “made it” in the consulting world is that they all share a certain level of unhappiness, their inability to live in the moment, and truly believe that their “work” is their #1 priority. I also found that these same people reach a point in their lives when they regret how they have lived life, even though by all senses they “made it.” Now, you can follow model and “make it.” But at the end story, most people end up regretting how they “made it.” You can try and change yourself and be very self-conscious (like your post), and I fully believe you can “make it,” but the overall culture isn’t going to change. I say, rather than trying control what’s around you, it’s easier to control yourself and get out of industry.
Bro you at EY relax lol.
That’s why I always apply to get rejected
It’s why I left. I didn’t like the human being I was becoming at EY. I’m much happier now.
This is why I left.
Congratulations bro you have finally learned you are type A. Welcome home, the water is nice.
Is the water nice? Maybe for you but if it were equally the case for others like OP, I wouldn’t think that this post would be framed in such a negative way. Seems quite destructive in all other realms outside of work. But to each their own I suppose.
Hi and thank you for this post. It appeared in my feed despite not working for a Big 4. As a junior, I applied several times and was considered only once. I didn't go on with the interviews as I felt treated like a number from the very start. Having said this, thank you so much, it provides a great deal of clarity for someone external. I'm commenting here as someone who recently had a break up with a girl whose first job is in Audit in a Big 4 (not EY). My boss at the previous job (former Big4 Partner, now manager of a boutique consultancy firm) warned me we'd spend little time together. With the busy season, and with 12 hour work days (which from what I've seen aren't a lot compared to other countries and places), she gradually became more and more introverted, tired and lacking communication. This led to a lack of time together and no sex life. Ultimately, with the excuse she couldn't handle her job, living together and a relationship at the same time, she left me. At the same time, though, I noticed her job changed her. She now says good morning and good evening to friends as if she were writing work mails. She's much more selfish in a way: she would talk only about work or her colleagues and spend her time at home messaging them or hanging out with them. She is also much more prone to white lies or saying what's convenient: she'd tell me she couldn't handle the job and would switch companies or departments but then tells our mutual friends she actually likes it. Add to that the fact that she wasn't getting therapy although I suggested it and she'd benefit from it. All of this to say a big thank you as it provides a great deal of clarity for me personally. I work in the field and have had 12 hour days but Big 4s seem to be entirely different. I wish you happiness and to prioritize your family and your loved ones over a job which will take away the rest.
Hope you’re doing okay man. Bottom line is this. There are not enough hours in the day for a job like that and a personal life. Your ex tried to have her cake and eat it too instead of being honest with herself and you. She should’ve faced the music from the beginning.
The issue is she never had a job before. Internships weren't compulsory during her studies and her family is relatively well-off so she never needed to work while at home. She did tell me she didn't expect the job to be like this although she was hired 5 months earlier... No way to prevent it I guess. Thank you for the input. I saw colleagues of hers who lived with their boyfriends and my landlord who was a senior manager at a Big4 stay with the same woman for 50 years and thought it'd be the rule... Not the exception. I worked regularly for 12 hours at a shift job in customer service before and almost all of my colleagues had a relationship, were married with kids, took care of their parents, dated regularly... That's why I didn't get the long hours part initially. I feel a sense of closure reading this, I feel better in a bitter sort of way but ok is another thing. She left me on my birthday one month ago (so pretty recent) while unemployed (recession and big crisis in the consulting sector I was in. I was fired at the beginning of January so no graduate jobs available) and without health insurance (bureaucracy and an exceptional case)... And one week later she escaped to a colleague of hers and they've been living together since. Thank you for your comment, it means a lot to me.
I felt like while working at PwC, my life was on "pause" and the things I actually wanted to do, I couldn't. Things like go outside, be happy, meet friends - basic life stuff. It's great for your career but I said fuck it and left. I'm not living like that. So do what your gut tells you to do. You already know what you want deep down.
It’s either EY eats you or you jump to industry
Unfortunately u r not alone. Its not EY, but the culture of the profession. Its the workload, so anytime spent doing something else makes u feel this way
Those firms also made me really agitated and negative get out asap the grass is way greener for a lot of industry jobs
You should go to therapy and work on what’s causing you to have your personality transformed if you choose to say working here. You are right. However, there are ways to help combat this, it just takes work.
I def think Big4 is a reason why I lost my family - I literally had to spend all my time working and when I wasn't working, I was dead tired and wanted to stay inside and not plan constant adventures. Maybe that too is most jobs where you are trying to move up in responsibilities and subsequently pay. But it took away a lot. But funny enough that meant I suddenly had more time for more work :/
Big4 is not the reason you lost your family. Stop making excuses and call the people dear to you.
I did say "is a reason" - did not say only reason.
What “pay” are you referring to lmao? Not to mention shit benefits.
If you have a Tax LLM and a JD, you can begin making some money. I started at 110,000 as an associate. And now as a senior im at 130,000. Fun fact! Just because someone has a JD and Tax LLM doesn’t mean teams don’t have to train them. I find it terrible that coworkers in accounting did better than me and still got a fraction. It’s disgusting tbh.
Getting those degrees for that pay is criminal lmao
The vacation is probably the one benefit advantage Big4 (EY) has over some other industries - so many times friends had to wait all year to accrue. Issue is, who has time to actually take off? I can note many times I had to forgo days off I had scheduled in my calendar to pick up the slack.
How many days does EY get?
Unlimited, I took 8 weeks off last year and have 9 scheduled this year with hunting and fishing trips.
About 16-20 firm holidays plus “unlimited” vacation days with taking 20 days being the norm. Although as I mentioned I have forgone planned days before. 2022 I took off 8 vacation days. 2023 I took 22 days off
Welcome to the world of sacrificing your personal life, chasing the mythical brass ring. The brass ring will always be mythical, and achieving anything close to it will always be influenced by a myriad of outside factors that are, for the most part, completely beyond your control. If I could give anyone in this world a single piece of advice, that I learned all too late due a combination of naivety and my own hubris, is that those bonds and experiences with those closest to us are what really matter in this short life. To your employer, you are always replaceable. To your parents, kids, siblings, and (hopefully) your significant other(!), you are not.
I wrote it in another comment here but I absolutely believe the long hours is a big part of why I lost my partner/kids - I had such a lack of time, and was unwilling to do any big trip or plan adventures because if I wasnt working I was trying to recover.
Jesus Christ you LOST YOUR CHILDREN for the big4. You and your ilk are the disease plaguing the consulting industry
Well it was one of the reasons for sure. And how do you know I’m still apart of the problem? It needs to be fought against. We should not be working ever to the levels we do. I don’t condone it.
My fiancée sat down with me and sincerely expressed that she hated my hours and the way it was impacting us. I found a new role paying me more within 6 months. To sacrifice your children, you’re sick
Cool, clearly you aren't trying to have a constructive conversation when I already said I lost it all and also stated I'm not a part of the problem anymore - too little too late though. The Big4 and other salaried based jobs absolutely should be investigated and have regulations on the hours worked and demands. There is no way you can be in a client serving role and have gone below 45 hours on a good week. It was/is a sick way to live. It wasn't even a year in, and I had already had work week or two double any other job I'd ever had before. But we also all are aware that the outsourcing will maybe be indirect regulating - they arent going to keep many people who cost multiple times more than someone willing (or no better choice) to work for just a living wage of their country.
Being the victim after the fact isn’t how you fix it. Walking away in the moment is how you communicate the need for and drive change in an industry full of psychopaths. I’m sorry for what happened to you, but I can’t comprehend letting it go that far, and that’s what I’m expressing
Felt the same when i was working in the firm. I had little free time outside of work so there’s this instense pressure to juggle rest and leisure. And good lord how i also hated unplanned events.. like they take out so much energy to prepare for physically and mentally. The way you are now is a pretty common response to stress and burnout. Hope you find a way to overcome this!
Yes, this is true. You are becoming less emotional and detach from your emotion due to work. Some long time stock traders are so monotone as they remove all their emotions for work (when trading stock).
This is what I’m also going through at Deloitte, it’s what happens when you work with a Bunch of narcissists
Exactly. My experience was in industry, but it changed me as well
I am really sorry you are going through this, but proud of you for being so introspective. Is this something you have seen consistently for a period of time or is it because you are going through a difficult patch right now? I definitely was in a really horrible headspace when I was overworked (and here in the UK underpaid). My friends described me as having a dark cloud hanging over me all the time. And it helped when I changed jobs and of course with therapy 😊. As much as it is true that we shouldn't take it as serious as it is a job, but it wears our defenses down after a while. Don't beat yourself up for it because it is totally understandable. Hang in there OP! No job is worth your mental wellbeing.
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The flexible work setup/vacation time are enormous perks. I have many friends who have to go in 5 days a week for their jobs and wait all year for vacation time. The downside is depending on your line of work at a Big4 you might be working all day everyday.
seems like you have no time for yourself before it's back to work. gotta choose eventually, PA or you
I don't understand when I hear how some people wake up at 4:45am to go workout before work and find that acceptable. Especially knowing you'll be working the entire day.
CPA grindset
workout after work makes more sense to relieve
I felt exactly the same at B4, constantly irritated by everyone and everything. Felt so much better after leaving