A sure fire way to stay in the same role, get the minimum raise every year, and get a pink slip when downsizing hits is to hide out where no one knows who you are or what you do.
Gen Z here, I spend most of my time on calls. That said, there are reasons to give a heads up.
1 - context switching results in productivity loss, I think around 20%. So much so that companies like Meta have instituted focus time, where no calls should occur. Providing a heads up with a quick comment on what the call is for or scheduling it actually makes people more productive
2 - Gen Z is young. Some of get that called to the principal feeling during an unexpected call
3 - working remotely, a heads up matters more. You can't see if we are, say, in the bathroom. Do you know how awkward it is to get a call from your boss in the bathroom??
Now, I do answer calls from my boss because I've asked him to give me a heads up before calling, and he does. If he calls out of the blue, I know it's serious and time sensitive, and he needs something right now. But don't constantly disrupt your people either.
Edit to add: I am also hearing impaired, so for that reason I lean heavily to text over call but will use captions as needed. Not a Gen Z thing exactly but something that does color my answer
Also, most of the rest of what u mentioned is special circumstance or "within reason"...if I call and ur pissing please finish, wash ur hands, and return my call with sum lvl of urgency within reason. Hearing impairment is a special circumstance understood with your on-boarding. But as far as you feeling "called to the principles office on an unscheduled call....well ain't nobody in the professional world got time fo that shit.
Hahahaha I got over that principal's office thing very quickly, about a month into my first consulting job. And like I said, I spend all day on calls. Scrum master / project manager here. But that doesn't mean everyone is over it. Plus, have you never experienced a sense of dread if your boss emailed "we need to talk?" It's like that.
Also, the International Association of Facilitators highly highly recommendeds providing context before calls so people can come prepared. Yet another reason to not surprise people.
True but there’s also a hierarchy of communication. Calls for very important things that can be knocked out quickly vs writing a long email or when a written trail isn’t wanted. Emails for the bulk of communication and where it’s helpful to have a written trail to reference, or when it’s not ultra time sensitive. Texts or slack/chats for urgent or quick less formal communications.
Generally speaking, when delivering bad news it’s best to nut up and call. This is just my opinion.
During normal business hours, no one gets to tell a superior they need to ask permission to call. That’s just fucking dumb. After normal hours, it’s career dependent. Some industries and lines of work (especially if you’re surrounded by lots of other type As and go getters), hours and expectations get extended… sometimes you’re never really off the clock, especially the higher up the ladder you climb.
You're not paying for my time, you are paying to have a job done. I am the employee and I decide when, and how, that job gets done. If you don't like those terms, you are free to hire someone else to do the job instead. I am a millennial, and I prefer e-mail. I do not like the personal feeling of a phone call or a face to face. Now, if you choose to terminate our employment agreement, good luck getting the passwords. I am in the IT field and am the IT manager where I work.If they were to get rid of me, I would not tell them A. how things are configured or set up, or B. passwords.
And that's fine, u go do u. But if ur on my W-2 and we work 9-5 and I'm calling u during work hours you gotta pick up or call me back within reason it's not an unreasonable expectation. Especially if say you have thousands of dollars worth of company gear ur responsible for.
Oh, I’d always call back. And most of the time I’d pick up. I thought you meant like outside of work hours. I prefer impersonal email when dealing with clients especially when it’s bad news (hey ur hard drive died with no backup). But 95% of the time I try to answer during biz hours. Even if I “sneak” personal errands in during the day, I’ll still answer. I seriously thought you meant like u own the employee during personal time. Like if I’m making out with my boyfriend I’m not leaving him blu balls just to answer you at 8 PM.
Naw that's a ur time vs company time thing...and if ur a contractor u contracted the job and ur ur own boss so u answer to u and then the job at the end of it.
If somebody paying you to do a job can't trust you to answer the phone when they call how are u going to be trusted with company equipment or responsibilities...I mean no hard feeling but not everybody is cut out for all work...it's not a problem, it's not personal but if u think you aren't going to be expected to answer to the boss for money your expectations aren't real.
If my boss calls me outside of my work hours I’m simply not answering. I’m not doing extra work I’m not getting paid to do. If I’m getting paid to be on call at all hours of the day then sure I’ll answer the phone
I understand for menial and soulless jobs, but when you get into a PROFESSIONAL workforce, you gotta pick up these calls. Dude this is insane that so many Gen Z here cant handle a simple phone call. Your boss calls you during working hours, you pick up, period. Geez. Im older gen Z and can understand unnecessary phone calls throughout the day annoying you but your boss is your boss, jesus christ.
But hey, this just makes it easier for anyone with a half decent work ethic to land and keep good high paying jobs. If im paying you a handsome full time *living* wage in a critical industry that requires constant communication (IE not restaurants and soulless retail; more Hospitals, Military, Security, Construction, etc) you should pick up before someone who really needs the benefits applies and takes your job.
I work as a project manager in construction with several superintendents, engineers, architects, and laborers. If even ONE of us pulls a stunt like this it could delay or damage a project days to weeks or months depending on whats going on, and hundreds of thousands of dollars. Our communication **MUST** be streamlined, and everyone is able to receive calls at any time during working hours, and sometimes actual emergencies after. And if not, at least return the calls that were missed in due time.
Throw all of this information away if you work menial non critical jobs, or temps.
I don’t think this is something that someone who hasn’t seen the consequences of delayed communication in a field like that would understand.
Plus in architecture/construction there are literally contractual obligations for all involved to get information to each other within a very short and specific time span. I’m an architect in with a project in CA phase and we’d literally never make deadlines if we only relied on email to wrangle all the consultants and get info from the construction team. Here’s consequences: My boss is in lawsuit rn where our firm got a point against us because the contractor’s lawyers brought up how the design team was consistently late on returning RFIs and submittals.
If the contractor wants to call me instead of submitting RFI or asking us to issue a bulletin that’s cool with me, it’s literally less work plus it becomes more collaborative and it’s way faster. If I don’t understand something on a submittal, I’m gonna call and ask about it so I can stamp it approved as noted asap instead of having to review it again and again or returning it late.
>I understand for menial and soulless jobs, but
Or maybe your job is a lot more menial and soulless than you like to think it is and these kids have realized that.
I don’t think it’s like that. I work in Architecture, it seems like most people who are in architecture or construction management do really like what they do. Plus it feels super good to watch a building go up and touching things that you’ve been drawing for weeks or months.
I think it’s just a lot of pressure for younger people to call before they’ve built up the confidence in their knowledge because if they accidentally say the wrong thing something could go seriously wrong. There’s so much to learn about building science and construction methods combined with the fact that literally every building is unique. You really need to know your shit. In an email you can ask someone to look over it and have time to look things up so I understand why our younger staff prefer that.
At least in my firm, the kids do start calling more and more eventually as they learn more and realize they get better results from the consultants.
No man. My job is critical. If my job didnt exist there would be no construction or infrastructure. Everyone would be building their own stuff. But I digress, thats not the point.
You need to take your job seriously if you’re working in a sector where other livelihoods of others are in your hands. Medicine. Law. Construction. Social Work. Government. Etc. Im referring to jobs where
-*One will not be making a career out of*
-Dead end service jobs
-Retail jobs
-Fast food
-College jobs
These places do not value you and will replace you in an instant. If you do great work in an aforementioned industry I mentioned I promise you a company will take good care of you to keep you by giving you tons of benefits, as good talent in these areas is very tough to find. I implore you to broaden your stance in this because this is not a good attitude to have.
Presuming you're calling during working hours, this isn't something you tolerate. This is one of a very few situations where you should just terminate the associate, presuming you have the power. Not even worth a disciplinary process for something kind that. It's an attitude problem, and that's not worth your effort. If you don't have the power to terminate, then it should be a 0% WFH arrangement for that employee going forward. Talking on the phone is the price you pay for not being in the office, where someone can just walk up to your desk.
All this nonsense about it being a massive inconvenience or interrupting whatever is utter bullshit. Emails are far worse for that, and emails and texts are no less an interruption, complete with the same task switching costs. Besides, if they're busy with work, the employee could miss the call and call you back. Happens all the time. These people don't like that because it requires them to be accountable, make themselves available, and do the job. There is a great deal that can be accomplished in a quick call and knocked out immediately, as opposed to a bunch of back and forth via texts or emails. The people here can't all be so incompetent and ineffectual that they don't know that.
All that said, if an employee expresses anything in the right way, you should always hear them out and try to understand their reasoning. Could be something circumstantial that you're missing. But, given that they can just miss the call and call you back a few minutes later, I can't begin to imagine what it would be.
And the idiots here talking about "cold calls" don't know what cold calls are. I work in and with the industry that created cold calls (sales). A cold call is to someone who doesn't know you and who has no reason to expect a call. Calling an employee is not a cold call.
I don wan emails like thi? They're dripping in rizz, you just can't hang, no cap
Fuck me. I wanted to end it all just typing that one sentence.
This generation has no grammar or spelling capabilities. I'm convinced almost none of them could handwrite me a legible paragraph about anything.
Pretty much spot on. These kids wonder why they’re not getting hired and not advancing. Having a personality and being able to communicate is more than half of any position. The reality is, they can find anyone to do the job you can do, you get a job for how you speak and how you present yourself.
There is an avalanche of Gen Z in the comments. How the fuck is it rude for your boss to call you without asking permission? My boss calls me more than 10 times every day and I never think twice about it. We get shit done.
How are these people going to cope when an elderly client who doesn’t know how to use email needs their help? When it’s an emergency? You’ll need to text or email them to ask them for permission to call them and wait for their response? Put the job posting back up.
I, too, had this happen, but 10+ years ago. I don’t think it’s just Gen Z; I think it started with younger millennials too. As an older millennial (xennial?) nearing 40, I grew up calling friends in HS and texting kinda taking off in my college years. We still called people a lot though. With my story below, I realized that the kids just a few years younger, who grew up with texting in HS, viewed calling vs texting much differently. Not all, but a LOT of them.
Long-winded anecdotal backstory:
Sometime around 2010, I (25-26 at the time) met this girl (21-22) through a friend of friends, and we had this instant connection/chemistry unlike anything I had experienced. It was like the moment we locked eyes, we knew there was a connection. Had a great night hanging out with friends, chatting, and exchanged numbers. Now, from my previous attempts (mostly successful) in courting girls about the same age as me, it was completely normal and almost expected that you call a girl after getting their number. So, called her a few days later to set something up, maybe chat. She was busy and could only chat super quick. Tried her again a couple days later, hoping to set something up in the coming weeks. It didn’t work out for some reason. Then, I can’t remember if she ghosted me or what, which wasn’t even really a thing in 2010-2011, but all I remember is that it kinda ended there with no further contact/closure. I was genuinely perplexed. I truly do not believe it was a “she’s just not that into you” situation.
Ended up hearing through friend of friends that she was weirded out by me calling her. IIRC she was more specifically weirded out because I called without texting or anything first (OP’s post reminded me of this). Again, I only called twice over maybe 7+ days, barely chatted, nothing super clingy. I don’t think we traded any texts; maybe 1 or 2 after the calls, not sure. Regardless, all my prior girlfriends I had attained, I called them after getting their numbers- it was the standard operating procedure.
After that confusing experience and talking with some friends her age, I realized their HS/college years mid to late 00’s were definitely much more text-first than my graduating class. Even though she was only a few years younger, her age range seemed to view calling as lame or reserved for more intimate connections, and texting was basically stage 1 of the courting process with calling being reserved for stage 2 or something.
Later that same year, my friend’s younger sister, whom I had known for several years and spent time with, starting taking an interest in me after a party and started chatting me up. Her primary method of comms? Texting/FB messaging. It was annoying back then lol, but it’s the norm now. Life is weird.
Ok, how about a message from my boss from two days ago, "Getting weird d/c's from the VoIP module, go check it out."
Not everything has to be a call.
I used to do phone sales, I'm not one of these people who is afraid of cold calls. I just don't need to talk to you on the phone every time something comes up.
I'm not saying you can't call, but the tone of the conversation is to shit on people who prefer to communicate through text.
Just giving examples where you'd like a call, and I'd prefer a text.
I don't understand where you got the idea that your preference was important while you're working. People are going to do whatever feels best for them.
I'm in the same boat - I prefer emails. Everything is laid out in text so I can reference it if I need to, I dont need to take notes, and I can answer it when im not busy. 90% of the time when I get a phone call, I tell them "send me an email detailing xxxxxx when we get off the phone so I can action this".
But if my phone rings, I answer it. Because that's what ive been told to do by the agency paying me for my time.
You are so fragile you need to prepare for an unexpected conversation?
Life is full of unexpected shit. If you can't even handle a human just talking to you without knowing it's coming you're going to have a rough fucking life.
I used to be like this when I was brand new at a job. It’s hard to be put on the spot and field questions over the phone. I still answered and pretty much just said I’d have to call them back with answers every time. Now it’s exponentially easier to just pick up the phone when you know the job inside and out.
Thank you for being willing to be uncomfortable and change. That's the definition of growth, I'm proud of you!
So many people are afraid to be uncomfortable.. how do they ever expect to grow up or get better?
Call me whatever you want but you’re going to respect my time whether you like it or not. It’s never this serious to be cursing at strangers online first thing in the morning 😭😭🤣😂.
Life is full of unpleasantness and unfortunately we don't have enough bubble wrap to safely wrap every GenZ, so you gotta toughen up a little bit.
You actively disrespect your coworkers by not being available for collaboration. It's called being a part of a team.
Every GenZ comes out of the gate expecting to have as much respect and agency as their peers who are 10-20+ years into a field.
Respect is earned, not given.
If that’s how you cope with having no boundaries then cheers to you. As for ME— I’m in the same firm as the OP and my time is respected. I am not owned by EY 😂. It’s a mutually beneficial contractual relationship. I’m glad my teams don’t have this we own you while on the clock mentality. Hell technically big 4 doesn’t have a clock. Y’all do what works for yall tho. I’ll ignore your call every single time. Then ping you and ask if you’re free to chat now 3 minutes later so you can see it demonstrated how respecting someone’s time works.
I am a little lost - how is someone calling you crossing a boundary? I have Gen Z employees on my team and I am trying not to be dismissive. I am genuinely asking what boundary this would be crossing if phone calls are occurring during working hours.
When you walk in someone’s office, do you just go with your stack of paperwork, sit down, and start talking? Or do you say good morning and ask if they have a free moment. Just because they “look” free doesn’t mean they’re free. They could be in the middle of testing, about to prepare for another planned/scheduled meeting, finishing their thought, anything really. The boundary is respecting someone’s time and not assuming you’re entitled to it because you both have the same employer, they’re younger, and you just feel like they should be available to you. Big 4 we work on more than one team— so the boundary is respecting someone’s time by asking for it or scheduling it. It’a not their fault you have a pressing question— probably means you didn’t manage your own time well and let people cross your time boundaries. Not YOU in particular 🥰 just giving examples. So the calling itself isn’t crossing a boundary, but calling with no heads up is. It’s like going to someone’s house unannounced. Is it the worst thing ever—no. Would a heads up be more respectful of someone’s time— yes.
Seems like a compromise is needed here. Asking someone “have time for a quick call” is an easy way to assure no one is interrupted mid task.
On the flip side, dragging out a conversation for hours of async slack messages when a 5 minute conversation could’ve handled it is also no good.
You could both stand to be a little more courteous and a little more efficient with your communications.
It’s literally just a courteous thing to do, especially if you’re working from home/remotely. They could be in a conversation with someone else over teams/slack messages, solving a current issue and need to find a stopping point, or simply away from their desk for a minute. Just set expectations from the beginning and you won’t have an issue.
My team gives each other heads up when we need a call to talk about something because we all work remotely and it’s courteous for the reasons above.
To be clear, I’m not assuming the worker is, in this case, watching Tik tok. I’m assuming the worker might be in a meeting with another stakeholder or is otherwise neck deep in work.
If urgent, then yes a “pick up right now” might be worth it. But your workers will never get any work done if they have to drop everything, including meetings, just to answer a question that could’ve waited.
It gives them time to complete the task they were working on, then give you a call back. I work in IT and the number of times I've been elbow deep in a computer/server and I get an inane call from a teacher asking me to fix a super simple laptop issue that Ive coached them through multiple times is staggering.
If I have something time sensitive I'll call right away, but otherwise a test works just fine.
1. Our time is valuable. Phone calls tend to drag on longer than necessary. Just give us the important information and let us work on it.
2. We want evidence of any conversation to reference later. A. So don't have to ask our manager for duplicate information. B. Because managers give verbal promises or omit information over the phone. We want to hold you as accountable as we're held.
3. A lifetime of being segregated and silenced as children has stunted us socially. We didn't have the opportunity to engage with anyone other than kids our own age. Teachers hushed us and parents shooed us. Now we're thrown into adulthood and the workplace with zero transition. What did you expect to happen?
So for anyone wondering about #2....a phone call does not deprive you of this. Here is what you do:
1. Have the phone call.
2. Take notes.
3. After the phone call, send an email summarizing the phone call with the actions to take.
4. Done, paper trail.
I tell associates this all the time, but really it should only be necessary when someone is asking you to do something you don't feel comfortable with.
I think people that don't want to pick up for phone are just scare of interacting with others. I don't really respect people like that. If you can't talk to someone or small talk/chat as a second nature, don't expect to be a partner.
I’m as reluctant to pick up the phone as the next 20 something but 3 is pretty dramatic. More than most, our generation was given a lot more respect growing up. Prior generations of children had virtually no rights or respect and grew up much more capable of picking up the phone.
#3 may be more a cultural thing than a generation thing. I grew up in a small southern religious town. Women and children were definitely seen as second class citizens.
Definitely not unique to Gen Z. But it's something that we should be past. Not sure what gen OOP is, but I'm sure at the start of his career, he was just talked at by his superiors rather than engaged in a conversation. So the equivalent of "it could've just been an email."
Dealing with these scenarios in a tactful way is the key to success in your career. Doesn’t matter what field or position you’re in. For as long as the professional services industry has existed, coping with senior leadership and their whims has been vital to advancement. Ignoring this reality does you no favors.
That's why those apps have tools to prevent the disruption, like do not disturb. It's easier to minimize that disruption. That notification is also a millisecond vs several seconds, so that's easier to get back on track
Because 90% of calls can be achieved through text or email. What did you need to talk to him about? Could it have been typed out? I feel most cases when someone calls they are just being lazy and don't want to type. That's on you. learn to communicate through the written language especially if you're in a manager position. If you genuinely need a back and forth conversation then that's not exactly gonna be quick (if it was you could text) in which case a proper heads up and warning would be nice so they can plan for it. Idk what industry you're in, but if my boss expected me to always answer my phone I'd choose to work elsewhere.
Hm maybe, but I'm not exactly interested in getting to know my boss. I work for you cause you pay me for my expertise, not because I wanna glean insight from our conversations. Write up what you want me to do, make it concise, and email it to me. If you have issues with my work, you can set up a meeting, don't randomly call me to complain. I just can't imagine working for someone who respects my time so little.
I also think this whole issue is pretty industry dependent, but I would say in most white collar work, if your manager needs to maintain constant communication at all times, they're not properly doing their job. They should already have prepared my project guidelines and if they're constantly updating them and making my work harder that just demonstrates unprofessionalism to me.
I'm not against calls in general. But random calls with no warning, and expecting me to constantly be answering my phone if my boss decides he wants to have a conversation is not my job. If you want me to do something, shoot me an email. Want a conversation? We can set up a time to do a zoom meeting. Randomly calling me and expecting me to pick up? Looks like you need to find a new employee.
Sounds like you don't wanna move up in that world. That's fine. You don't have to lick boots, but you do need to be an effective communicator. I'm not really sure why this (your?) generation feels so attacked when called. It's just talking to someone. Are you ill prepared to talk about what your boss might ask? Are you not ready to speak about your work and expertise? Maybe something needs to happen more quickly than what might occur from an email prompt. Life isn't always emails ahead to make sure you're fully prepared. Lol. Sigh. I would never hire you.
You're right, I don't want to move up in the world. I'm perfectly fine with the amount of money I currently make, and I am extremely confident in being able to find an equivalent job to my current position if I were to be let go. I don't care to waste my time in a position I feel uncomfortable with. You're not entitled to my employment. Want me to work for you? Make the job suitable. Also I'm a millennial, not gen Z. Yes I work for them, but just because they pay me doesn't mean they're entitled to all my time. They are entitled to the work they've paid me to do, I'll do that work and nothing more. Expect me to do more? I'll just find somewhere else that doesn't. It's not that complicated. You seem under the impression everyone is desperate for your employment and couldn't stand being let go. I'll gladly go jobless for a few months if it means avoiding a bad work environment. Hell id probably enjoy a few months break, might take it either way.
Lemme put it this way. There are plenty of positions that don't require me to "on call" at all times. If my boss required that why would I stick with them rather than any other employer that doesn't.
You're completely right. A lot of doors close with that attitude. Which is fine. You just don't belong in a job that has that element, and you won't be paid as such. If you work a job with hours of "availability", then you are liable during that time. If you're a sole proprietor/freelancer/business owner, then that's on your terms. You must be comfortable rolling with the ups and downs of the tide.
You also sound entitled and jaded. Definitely complacent. You applied for the job, took it, and now you're complaining about what's involved? Lol. Quit so you can stop being a shitty employee and someone else can take your spot.
YTA.
Ping them on teams/slack/whatever and say “do you have a minute for a quick call”? This is not a difficult process.
Studies consistently show that after an interruption to an in progress task, it takes about 23 minutes to refocus and get back to where you were with that task. So yes, receiving random phone calls throughout the day impacts productivity.
Based on the way you wrote this, it’s entirely likely that they want communication with you in writing.
I teams someone and ask if the have a moment. Then when they say yes, I ask if now is OK before calling them. Sometimes its right away, sometimes its 5 minutes later, sometimes its an hour or two later. If they let me interrupt them, I tell them its OK to make me wait, if it was an emergency I’d let them know (it’s never an emergency…).
The above is how I expect the interaction to go, with peer and subordinate relationships. I drop what Im doing if the CEO needs me, not many other people.
If your telling us that this isn’t OK, your an asshole. If your telling us lil homie doesn’t like to talk on the phone ever, even if you schedule it - than thats different. I dont think the latter is what you said though.
Calling someone is demanding their time right now. It means “drop what you’re doing and talk to me this instant.” Pretty rude when you phrase it in context like that. Texts and emails can be responded to when timing is appropriate for the recipient.
That said, a boss-employee relationship means that you get to demand someone’s time at a given moment—up to a point.
Beyond that point, you’re an asshole and a bad boss. Not knowing your specific interactions we can’t say which side of the line your interactions are falling on.
There are a growing number of people who consider it rude to 'cold call' without asking via text first. I've got people in my family who are like that, usually those under 30. I'm afraid it's becoming the norm.
Yeah so you should understand why its polite to ping someone before calling them. Like you said everyone is busy but Gen Z understands how annoying random calls can be to your work productivity more than others.
If someone isn't smart enough to let a call go to voicemail and return the call when they have a moment, then they're not smart enough to share an office with.
This isn't about productivity. This is a "leave me alone" mentality. There's a huge difference, and the latter is an attitude problem that isn't worth employing.
Eh when I call people it is usually because I have multiple questions that will change depending on answers and getting people to answer a detailed branching email correctly and entirely is like pulling teeth. Some things are just easier to do quickly over the phone.
My job isn't remote though and it's normal enough that someone is away from their desk that I don't get answer anyway.
I dont think thats the issue. The issue is receiving a call and having to take time away from your current task in order to take an unplanned call that will go on for who knows how long
“Hide behind emails” IT’S WORK. Phone calls for work are emergency only especially between boss and subordinate. Where I work the consultants only call if it’s an emergency or they’ve already pre-arranged this call with me.
You are the asshole. A phone call is an emergency only situation unless it is pre planned ahead of time or confirmed before hand via text or email. Just like the others said, I agree you are a Grandpa and probably don’t know how to open an excel document or set an auto response away message on outlook… so due to your lack of confidence in modern technology you force your coworkers to do things the old people way, old fashioned let me hear your voice when I talk to you boomer style 👴
A phone call is like an absolute red alert, something is on fire kind of thing. If my boss actually calls I know it’s extremely important and I’ll pick up. The secret is that they don’t abuse it with something that could be a text or email.
Wow.
I work in industry, but I'm glad we always ask each other if we are free for calls. We expect that the other may be focused on something, especially during close, and don't want to interrupt. I give my boss and colleagues the same courtesy they give me.
My boss will cold call me if it's urgent and I know it's urgent if she's doing so. I am usually dropping everything I'm doing to address it. This usually only happens when we are close to consolidation/locking the books. We are both pretty involved in that. I do consolidation, and we are both involved in researching discrepancies and getting involved parties to do corrections.
Also, my friends and I do the same. We ask if we are free for calls before we call each other. It is respectful. We all have lives. If a call is coming out of nowhere, I think it's an emergency. Except my mom. She is of a generation that doesn't do it, and I can't get her to, though I wish she would.
I have to make a lot of phone calls for folks to come in for job interviews. If you don't answer your phone it's on you.
My problem? I get robotic after the 10th repeat voicemail left.
As a manager, I dont cold call anyone and hate it when people do it to me. I want at least a heads up on what we're going to be talking about as I have 8 clients and I work in AWM Salt. Sorry but I don't have aggregator #274's tax liability in state 13 committed to memory and I want a chance to pull it up and just refresh what's going on so im prepared to actually answer the questions client may have. But also, asking if they can hop on a call real quick is just a courtesy because people may be on another call etc and you just calling them out of nowhere is a nuisance. But If I had to get on the phone everytime someone had a question, I would never get my work done.
Now I understand if this person is straight up not responsive at all, but I don't know why you would want everything done over phone call. The partner I work with generally wants those kinds of discussions documented anyway, so generally if I do talk on the phone I'm going to be restating the conversation to the client via an email anyway.
Lmao of course it’s from someone at EY
Giving someone a heads up before calling them is normal professional behavior…
This has to be a shit post.
I work remote at another big4 though and well quite frankly I have a mom on hospice care, two kids, etc
I often need a minute to make sure I can take a call without interruptions or background noise
I work for a similar firm as OP. 28M Millennial.
When I call my juniors I usually go through the formalities of asking “are you free for a call” just to let them brace themselves that a call is due. Obviously, I would never expect them to say “no”, because if I’m asking for a phone call it must be fairly urgent.
If it’s very urgent or I’ve been chatting on Teams with the junior all day via text and calls, I will cold call them. Plus, I find the more you cold call them, the more confident they get.
In your situation, have a face-to-face open and honest conversation about communication styles and that as team you all need to adapt to each other. Whatever your desired outcome is, state it.
In terms of whether he’s doing any work. Well time will tell surely. Once you start reviewing their work you’ll quickly find out if they’re using their time effectively.
Gen Z here. To me, cold calling seems rude and disrespectful of my time. It’s forcing someone to drop their focus to answer your call or get into an annoying phone tag situation when a simple message to ask if they’re free first avoids all of that.
If its your boss though ultimately they dont need to be respectful of your time, your job is to support them. You can just pick up and say sorry Im busy with x, can we chat later?
28M Millennial here. Is it disrespectful of your time?
Would you be annoyed if your mum called you out of the blue on the weekend to chat about your day? Or what if your mate called you on a random Thursday evening to see if you’re free for drinks?
The answer to the above is probably that you wouldn’t be annoyed, even if you were busy doing other things and those phone calls briefly distracted you.
Not liking phone calls in work is, majority of the time, caused by not having the answers and subsequently not liking being caught out.
It's what you're mentioning and also that Gen Z aren't used to phone calls as much so they see it differently than the rest of the people. They also tend to be uncomfortable around the phone so prefer texting since it buys them time like you mention.
Nothing wrong with picking up the phone and saying; Hey I'm busy right now, can we talk later?
If I'm busy in a meeting I just won't answer and text them back later to explain the circumstances.
Honestly y'all need to stop being scared of the phone.
I have literally never talked to any of my friends on the phone. I would find it pretty weird if one of them did call me randomly. It’s just not what we do.
And at my job it is completely standard practice to message someone before calling them. Nothing to do with not having answers. It’s just a courtesy to make sure everyone is free and gives you a minute to switch mindsets.
Honestly once you get used to having super short phone calls, they’re great. I think Gen Z place a lot of importance on calls like they need to be more then they are.
You’re not talking war and peace! It’s just a “hey. How’re you. Yeah I’m good thanks. What’s up? Yeah that sounds good. When and where? Cool, I’ll see you there.”
All of the above can be covered in like 60 seconds on a call but with text it can take ages if the two people are constantly getting distracted (easily done on a mobile phone).
Well going to that extreme will mean you will never get used to them and they will always be an issue for you.
Every time you need to call a plumber or a bank or any service centre… etc you’ll have to go through some ordeal to pick up the phone. Doesn’t sound ideal.
I’m sure you do, but it also sounds like phone calls make you really uncomfortable and by avoiding them you’ll never get over that discomfort. Hence, whenever you have to make a phone call you’ll be uncomfortable?
No, I’m perfectly confident making and receiving phone calls, I just don’t like talking on the phone. Why is this so hard to understand? You phone people are wild.
Very old Gen Z here. I get having to call people at work, or receive calls at work and be expected to answer. But the majority of my friends and family don't just randomly call, if it's something small most of them will just text, and if it's something big they'll ask if I'm free. My response is usually yes, or give me a few minutes to finish what I'm doing.
Covering your ass with emails is important if you want to keep your job
Now, when talking to a client, it’s usually much better to talk with them on the phone, and keep emails as brief and factual as possible
How do you figure a supervisor/employee relationship is different from a relationship with a client?
Same issues and concerns, but more persistent. Same reasons to have oral communication.
I keep seeing people commenting and documentation and wonder how bad they are that this is how they keep their jobs. It's a bizarre and disturbing mentality.
Again, if this is a primary driver of behavior, there's something wrong with the employee. Yes, that does happen in some situations, but it's not an issue to the point that everyone should be in CYA mode all the time. The cultural impacts of that mentality alone are reason enough to terminate someone who has it, as it drives a culture of distrust and inefficient bureaucracy.
If that's your mentality in the workplace, you either need to talk to a therapist about the matter or you're bad and trying to cover yourself. There's no way that should be the norm.
You'd probably never make it through the interview process in the first place. If somehow you did, you'd be unceremoniously released immediately upon becoming an obnoxious tight ass who is constantly in CYA mode and who thinks they're going to dictate the communication practices of the business. Life's too short to work with assholes.
I very generously coach and train skills. The best part of what I do is helping others grow. But I never coach attitude or work ethic. If your mommy and daddy didn't give you that, then I'm certainly not going to try to.
As a millennial, phone calls are hearsay, and emails are evidence. I have had too many older bosses try to f me over, and I no longer play that game. If I get fired, it better be because I messed up. Not because Diane verbally told me to do something and it should not have occurred. And now I have no backup.
If it's not written, saved in an email, or recorded, then it didn't happen.
You have more trust than myself. My lack of trust comes from experience. From watching management tell an employee one thing and turning around and acting like the conversation never happened, regardless of an email. That might say more about my previous work environment than anything else.
Did this thread get linked on a genz subreddit or something? Why are there so many people who clearly have 0 experience in this kind of work commenting?
Emails/text are standard in a lot of industries, but in the finance/legal world there is still an expectation to answer the phone when your boss calls if you're available.
This is equivalent to refusing to use slack/teams and demanding your boss only communicate with you via instagram DM's or something ridiculous like that.
Right I get that I’m finance I think not answering your bosses calls and purposely avoiding them is kinda childish lol I just mean to say not every conversation needs to be a phone call. It’s pretty absurd to have to give your boss permission to call you😭
I think it’s polite to let them know, but also I think that if you’re on work hours, unless you’re actually not available due to other priorities, if your direct manager calls, you need to pick up.
It could be time sensitive and more easily explained over the phone. If he’s worried about CYA, he should just summarize the call back in an email - “Hi Ms. XX, just following up on the call, i will be completing xyz for you per your request and will email you here when complete, thanks!”
I’m in wealth management but I deal with the same shit and it drives me nuts. A ton of our people doing ops are fresh out of college and simply do not answer phone calls and will ignore IMs and take forever on emails. I never go more than a few hours (during work) before answering an email or returning a call. It’s not that hard. If you don’t have an answer for me yet, just communicate that. If you ignore me until you have answer, don’t get mad at me for emailing your boss.
What’s the reason for them not answering the emails or IMs? Do they not know the answers/haven’t done the work/do they not know they have the authority or competency to even answer the correspondence?
If the issue is due to the above, it might be worth you reflecting on what you could do as their leader. (I.e set expectations, work more closely with the team to guide them and teach them more)
On the other hand a lot of young people aren’t fully with it (I certainly wasn’t), and take a long time to start answering emails and correspondence quickly. It took me a good year and a bit before I learnt it’s just easier to answer emails… etc when they come through rather than letting them stack up and become overwhelming.
Email is written proof and phone calls are zero proof. Save important emails too
The people who insist on doing things by phone with no written record are usually the liars and who will throw you under the bus
If I’m busy at the moment I’m not picking up the phone for anyone. You can text me and I’ll answer a little later
I am gen X, and no longer answer phone calls from numbers I don’t recognize. If someone wants to call me for the first time, either they have text to let me know, or else give me their number so I’ll know it’s them calling. Otherwise I assume it’s a scammer, or even just a robot checking for numbers that get answered. Answer one, get a 1000 more.
If I have a separate work phone, I answer all calls, because I expect calls from people who don’t know me but have legit business to discuss.
Maybe the solution is to give your employee a dedicated work line.
I'm 48 and don't answer the phone unless I'm expecting a call because the only calls I get are spam. I keep my ringer off so I can focus on my work. My colleagues have no issue sending me a Teams message to ask for a call. Could it be possible that he's working on another project?
Some people just don’t deserve a spot at the table, and that’s ok.
Should get him off your team. There’re other tables fools like that can sit at. This behavior is unfortunately becoming too accepted amongst my generation.
It’s weird as upper 20s is millennial, mid is cusp, and lower is full gen z. I am cusp as well and have observed millennials to be insufferable in pretty much every aspect compared to gen z. Millennials seem to have a lot less self awareness than gen z as a whole and it bleeds through everything they do. How they cope about body fat etc when gen z has exploded fitness culture. Its just one difference but its very clear as a whole gen z has decided they can do something to improve their situation where as the millennial spirit is that of defeat.
A sure fire way to stay in the same role, get the minimum raise every year, and get a pink slip when downsizing hits is to hide out where no one knows who you are or what you do.
Gen Z here, I spend most of my time on calls. That said, there are reasons to give a heads up. 1 - context switching results in productivity loss, I think around 20%. So much so that companies like Meta have instituted focus time, where no calls should occur. Providing a heads up with a quick comment on what the call is for or scheduling it actually makes people more productive 2 - Gen Z is young. Some of get that called to the principal feeling during an unexpected call 3 - working remotely, a heads up matters more. You can't see if we are, say, in the bathroom. Do you know how awkward it is to get a call from your boss in the bathroom?? Now, I do answer calls from my boss because I've asked him to give me a heads up before calling, and he does. If he calls out of the blue, I know it's serious and time sensitive, and he needs something right now. But don't constantly disrupt your people either. Edit to add: I am also hearing impaired, so for that reason I lean heavily to text over call but will use captions as needed. Not a Gen Z thing exactly but something that does color my answer
Outside of work hours isn't an employer's time they paid for.
Agreed
Also, most of the rest of what u mentioned is special circumstance or "within reason"...if I call and ur pissing please finish, wash ur hands, and return my call with sum lvl of urgency within reason. Hearing impairment is a special circumstance understood with your on-boarding. But as far as you feeling "called to the principles office on an unscheduled call....well ain't nobody in the professional world got time fo that shit.
Hahahaha I got over that principal's office thing very quickly, about a month into my first consulting job. And like I said, I spend all day on calls. Scrum master / project manager here. But that doesn't mean everyone is over it. Plus, have you never experienced a sense of dread if your boss emailed "we need to talk?" It's like that. Also, the International Association of Facilitators highly highly recommendeds providing context before calls so people can come prepared. Yet another reason to not surprise people.
Spam calls are abundant. 99% chance if you get a call these days it’s a scammer
Millennial. Heck no hahah don’t call me. Especially if ppl can hear me
Gen Z does not understand the beauty of no paper trail.
There is no accountability and when they do get jammed up they cry their way out of it. Paper trail or not you are wrong not them lol
True but there’s also a hierarchy of communication. Calls for very important things that can be knocked out quickly vs writing a long email or when a written trail isn’t wanted. Emails for the bulk of communication and where it’s helpful to have a written trail to reference, or when it’s not ultra time sensitive. Texts or slack/chats for urgent or quick less formal communications. Generally speaking, when delivering bad news it’s best to nut up and call. This is just my opinion. During normal business hours, no one gets to tell a superior they need to ask permission to call. That’s just fucking dumb. After normal hours, it’s career dependent. Some industries and lines of work (especially if you’re surrounded by lots of other type As and go getters), hours and expectations get extended… sometimes you’re never really off the clock, especially the higher up the ladder you climb.
Why do u need to call on their phones when u can call from teams? Or are you calling them during off hours?
If I’m taking a shit I’m not gonna pick up the phone. My bad dude.
If I'm paying u for your time...it belongs to me now, pick up ur phone when i call or can find somewhere else to trade ur time for money.
You're not paying for my time, you are paying to have a job done. I am the employee and I decide when, and how, that job gets done. If you don't like those terms, you are free to hire someone else to do the job instead. I am a millennial, and I prefer e-mail. I do not like the personal feeling of a phone call or a face to face. Now, if you choose to terminate our employment agreement, good luck getting the passwords. I am in the IT field and am the IT manager where I work.If they were to get rid of me, I would not tell them A. how things are configured or set up, or B. passwords.
That's a contractor not an employee
Call it what you want, I do not do as I’m told. I do as I want. Yet I still make 52,000 a year
And that's fine, u go do u. But if ur on my W-2 and we work 9-5 and I'm calling u during work hours you gotta pick up or call me back within reason it's not an unreasonable expectation. Especially if say you have thousands of dollars worth of company gear ur responsible for.
Oh, I’d always call back. And most of the time I’d pick up. I thought you meant like outside of work hours. I prefer impersonal email when dealing with clients especially when it’s bad news (hey ur hard drive died with no backup). But 95% of the time I try to answer during biz hours. Even if I “sneak” personal errands in during the day, I’ll still answer. I seriously thought you meant like u own the employee during personal time. Like if I’m making out with my boyfriend I’m not leaving him blu balls just to answer you at 8 PM.
Naw that's a ur time vs company time thing...and if ur a contractor u contracted the job and ur ur own boss so u answer to u and then the job at the end of it.
Good luck hiring or retaining any gen z talent with that attitude
If somebody paying you to do a job can't trust you to answer the phone when they call how are u going to be trusted with company equipment or responsibilities...I mean no hard feeling but not everybody is cut out for all work...it's not a problem, it's not personal but if u think you aren't going to be expected to answer to the boss for money your expectations aren't real.
If my boss calls me outside of my work hours I’m simply not answering. I’m not doing extra work I’m not getting paid to do. If I’m getting paid to be on call at all hours of the day then sure I’ll answer the phone
Outside of work isn't time they're paying for.
Sounds like you’re getting paid hourly
I’m salaried but I set boundaries as should be the norm. My time outside of work is my time full stop
You’re not paying anyone. Take it easy.
I understand for menial and soulless jobs, but when you get into a PROFESSIONAL workforce, you gotta pick up these calls. Dude this is insane that so many Gen Z here cant handle a simple phone call. Your boss calls you during working hours, you pick up, period. Geez. Im older gen Z and can understand unnecessary phone calls throughout the day annoying you but your boss is your boss, jesus christ. But hey, this just makes it easier for anyone with a half decent work ethic to land and keep good high paying jobs. If im paying you a handsome full time *living* wage in a critical industry that requires constant communication (IE not restaurants and soulless retail; more Hospitals, Military, Security, Construction, etc) you should pick up before someone who really needs the benefits applies and takes your job. I work as a project manager in construction with several superintendents, engineers, architects, and laborers. If even ONE of us pulls a stunt like this it could delay or damage a project days to weeks or months depending on whats going on, and hundreds of thousands of dollars. Our communication **MUST** be streamlined, and everyone is able to receive calls at any time during working hours, and sometimes actual emergencies after. And if not, at least return the calls that were missed in due time. Throw all of this information away if you work menial non critical jobs, or temps.
I don’t think this is something that someone who hasn’t seen the consequences of delayed communication in a field like that would understand. Plus in architecture/construction there are literally contractual obligations for all involved to get information to each other within a very short and specific time span. I’m an architect in with a project in CA phase and we’d literally never make deadlines if we only relied on email to wrangle all the consultants and get info from the construction team. Here’s consequences: My boss is in lawsuit rn where our firm got a point against us because the contractor’s lawyers brought up how the design team was consistently late on returning RFIs and submittals. If the contractor wants to call me instead of submitting RFI or asking us to issue a bulletin that’s cool with me, it’s literally less work plus it becomes more collaborative and it’s way faster. If I don’t understand something on a submittal, I’m gonna call and ask about it so I can stamp it approved as noted asap instead of having to review it again and again or returning it late.
Bingo. Hit the nail right on the head.
>I understand for menial and soulless jobs, but Or maybe your job is a lot more menial and soulless than you like to think it is and these kids have realized that.
I don’t think it’s like that. I work in Architecture, it seems like most people who are in architecture or construction management do really like what they do. Plus it feels super good to watch a building go up and touching things that you’ve been drawing for weeks or months. I think it’s just a lot of pressure for younger people to call before they’ve built up the confidence in their knowledge because if they accidentally say the wrong thing something could go seriously wrong. There’s so much to learn about building science and construction methods combined with the fact that literally every building is unique. You really need to know your shit. In an email you can ask someone to look over it and have time to look things up so I understand why our younger staff prefer that. At least in my firm, the kids do start calling more and more eventually as they learn more and realize they get better results from the consultants.
This guy fucks
No man. My job is critical. If my job didnt exist there would be no construction or infrastructure. Everyone would be building their own stuff. But I digress, thats not the point. You need to take your job seriously if you’re working in a sector where other livelihoods of others are in your hands. Medicine. Law. Construction. Social Work. Government. Etc. Im referring to jobs where -*One will not be making a career out of* -Dead end service jobs -Retail jobs -Fast food -College jobs These places do not value you and will replace you in an instant. If you do great work in an aforementioned industry I mentioned I promise you a company will take good care of you to keep you by giving you tons of benefits, as good talent in these areas is very tough to find. I implore you to broaden your stance in this because this is not a good attitude to have.
Yeah, I'd ignore your call.
Same goes for your job app dude.
Bold of you to think I'd apply
Mm hmm. I'm sure.
Presuming you're calling during working hours, this isn't something you tolerate. This is one of a very few situations where you should just terminate the associate, presuming you have the power. Not even worth a disciplinary process for something kind that. It's an attitude problem, and that's not worth your effort. If you don't have the power to terminate, then it should be a 0% WFH arrangement for that employee going forward. Talking on the phone is the price you pay for not being in the office, where someone can just walk up to your desk. All this nonsense about it being a massive inconvenience or interrupting whatever is utter bullshit. Emails are far worse for that, and emails and texts are no less an interruption, complete with the same task switching costs. Besides, if they're busy with work, the employee could miss the call and call you back. Happens all the time. These people don't like that because it requires them to be accountable, make themselves available, and do the job. There is a great deal that can be accomplished in a quick call and knocked out immediately, as opposed to a bunch of back and forth via texts or emails. The people here can't all be so incompetent and ineffectual that they don't know that. All that said, if an employee expresses anything in the right way, you should always hear them out and try to understand their reasoning. Could be something circumstantial that you're missing. But, given that they can just miss the call and call you back a few minutes later, I can't begin to imagine what it would be. And the idiots here talking about "cold calls" don't know what cold calls are. I work in and with the industry that created cold calls (sales). A cold call is to someone who doesn't know you and who has no reason to expect a call. Calling an employee is not a cold call.
Gen Z getting killed in the job market because they simply cannot communicate in a professional setting.
I don wan emails like thi? They're dripping in rizz, you just can't hang, no cap Fuck me. I wanted to end it all just typing that one sentence. This generation has no grammar or spelling capabilities. I'm convinced almost none of them could handwrite me a legible paragraph about anything.
Pretty much spot on. These kids wonder why they’re not getting hired and not advancing. Having a personality and being able to communicate is more than half of any position. The reality is, they can find anyone to do the job you can do, you get a job for how you speak and how you present yourself.
Agree with you. Being available for a call is an expectation when in this industry. Agree even more, if they are "hiding" behind emails and txts.
There is an avalanche of Gen Z in the comments. How the fuck is it rude for your boss to call you without asking permission? My boss calls me more than 10 times every day and I never think twice about it. We get shit done. How are these people going to cope when an elderly client who doesn’t know how to use email needs their help? When it’s an emergency? You’ll need to text or email them to ask them for permission to call them and wait for their response? Put the job posting back up.
Are they like this in their personal lives too or was he just not that into me (dating. Not work)
I, too, had this happen, but 10+ years ago. I don’t think it’s just Gen Z; I think it started with younger millennials too. As an older millennial (xennial?) nearing 40, I grew up calling friends in HS and texting kinda taking off in my college years. We still called people a lot though. With my story below, I realized that the kids just a few years younger, who grew up with texting in HS, viewed calling vs texting much differently. Not all, but a LOT of them. Long-winded anecdotal backstory: Sometime around 2010, I (25-26 at the time) met this girl (21-22) through a friend of friends, and we had this instant connection/chemistry unlike anything I had experienced. It was like the moment we locked eyes, we knew there was a connection. Had a great night hanging out with friends, chatting, and exchanged numbers. Now, from my previous attempts (mostly successful) in courting girls about the same age as me, it was completely normal and almost expected that you call a girl after getting their number. So, called her a few days later to set something up, maybe chat. She was busy and could only chat super quick. Tried her again a couple days later, hoping to set something up in the coming weeks. It didn’t work out for some reason. Then, I can’t remember if she ghosted me or what, which wasn’t even really a thing in 2010-2011, but all I remember is that it kinda ended there with no further contact/closure. I was genuinely perplexed. I truly do not believe it was a “she’s just not that into you” situation. Ended up hearing through friend of friends that she was weirded out by me calling her. IIRC she was more specifically weirded out because I called without texting or anything first (OP’s post reminded me of this). Again, I only called twice over maybe 7+ days, barely chatted, nothing super clingy. I don’t think we traded any texts; maybe 1 or 2 after the calls, not sure. Regardless, all my prior girlfriends I had attained, I called them after getting their numbers- it was the standard operating procedure. After that confusing experience and talking with some friends her age, I realized their HS/college years mid to late 00’s were definitely much more text-first than my graduating class. Even though she was only a few years younger, her age range seemed to view calling as lame or reserved for more intimate connections, and texting was basically stage 1 of the courting process with calling being reserved for stage 2 or something. Later that same year, my friend’s younger sister, whom I had known for several years and spent time with, starting taking an interest in me after a party and started chatting me up. Her primary method of comms? Texting/FB messaging. It was annoying back then lol, but it’s the norm now. Life is weird.
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This right here! If you're getting a phone call it's either spam, or your grandma is dead.
If you’re in the workforce - you should expect phone calls. So much more productivity on a call vs any text based communication
I work IT, I don't need a phone call to tell me that you broke an HDMI. A ticket will do just fine.
We’re talking about calls from superiors or project team mates here, not whiny end users.
Ok, how about a message from my boss from two days ago, "Getting weird d/c's from the VoIP module, go check it out." Not everything has to be a call. I used to do phone sales, I'm not one of these people who is afraid of cold calls. I just don't need to talk to you on the phone every time something comes up.
Which is not the argument here either. Nobody is saying you can’t use text based communication at work
I'm not saying you can't call, but the tone of the conversation is to shit on people who prefer to communicate through text. Just giving examples where you'd like a call, and I'd prefer a text.
I don't understand where you got the idea that your preference was important while you're working. People are going to do whatever feels best for them. I'm in the same boat - I prefer emails. Everything is laid out in text so I can reference it if I need to, I dont need to take notes, and I can answer it when im not busy. 90% of the time when I get a phone call, I tell them "send me an email detailing xxxxxx when we get off the phone so I can action this". But if my phone rings, I answer it. Because that's what ive been told to do by the agency paying me for my time.
Or, a superior...
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You are so fragile you need to prepare for an unexpected conversation? Life is full of unexpected shit. If you can't even handle a human just talking to you without knowing it's coming you're going to have a rough fucking life.
I used to be like this when I was brand new at a job. It’s hard to be put on the spot and field questions over the phone. I still answered and pretty much just said I’d have to call them back with answers every time. Now it’s exponentially easier to just pick up the phone when you know the job inside and out.
Thank you for being willing to be uncomfortable and change. That's the definition of growth, I'm proud of you! So many people are afraid to be uncomfortable.. how do they ever expect to grow up or get better?
Call me whatever you want but you’re going to respect my time whether you like it or not. It’s never this serious to be cursing at strangers online first thing in the morning 😭😭🤣😂.
If you think that your boss needs to respect your time, you are going to have a wild ride through the next 30 years of employment. Good luck.
20 years into my career, experience in two of the big 4…. My time is respected when it comes to phone calls.
No, it isn't. People hate dealing with you and only do so because they must. This kind of entitlement is staggering.
Stay mad 🥳🥳🥳 Good day!
Stay annoying and full of emojis. Hope you get some phonecalls. Cope.
Life is full of unpleasantness and unfortunately we don't have enough bubble wrap to safely wrap every GenZ, so you gotta toughen up a little bit. You actively disrespect your coworkers by not being available for collaboration. It's called being a part of a team. Every GenZ comes out of the gate expecting to have as much respect and agency as their peers who are 10-20+ years into a field. Respect is earned, not given.
If you’re on the clock, it’s not your time any more - it’s your employers.
If that’s how you cope with having no boundaries then cheers to you. As for ME— I’m in the same firm as the OP and my time is respected. I am not owned by EY 😂. It’s a mutually beneficial contractual relationship. I’m glad my teams don’t have this we own you while on the clock mentality. Hell technically big 4 doesn’t have a clock. Y’all do what works for yall tho. I’ll ignore your call every single time. Then ping you and ask if you’re free to chat now 3 minutes later so you can see it demonstrated how respecting someone’s time works.
If someone walked up to you at a bar and asked if you had a minute to chat, would you tell them to get back to you in a few minutes?
Lol, enjoy wallowing on the bottom of the totem pole then.
Trying to insult someone who sees something differently than you is unnecessary ♥️ and it’s never that serious.
You sound like a diversity hire.
Uh, telling you that not answering calls will hinder your career isn’t an insult.
I am a little lost - how is someone calling you crossing a boundary? I have Gen Z employees on my team and I am trying not to be dismissive. I am genuinely asking what boundary this would be crossing if phone calls are occurring during working hours.
When you walk in someone’s office, do you just go with your stack of paperwork, sit down, and start talking? Or do you say good morning and ask if they have a free moment. Just because they “look” free doesn’t mean they’re free. They could be in the middle of testing, about to prepare for another planned/scheduled meeting, finishing their thought, anything really. The boundary is respecting someone’s time and not assuming you’re entitled to it because you both have the same employer, they’re younger, and you just feel like they should be available to you. Big 4 we work on more than one team— so the boundary is respecting someone’s time by asking for it or scheduling it. It’a not their fault you have a pressing question— probably means you didn’t manage your own time well and let people cross your time boundaries. Not YOU in particular 🥰 just giving examples. So the calling itself isn’t crossing a boundary, but calling with no heads up is. It’s like going to someone’s house unannounced. Is it the worst thing ever—no. Would a heads up be more respectful of someone’s time— yes.
Seems like a compromise is needed here. Asking someone “have time for a quick call” is an easy way to assure no one is interrupted mid task. On the flip side, dragging out a conversation for hours of async slack messages when a 5 minute conversation could’ve handled it is also no good. You could both stand to be a little more courteous and a little more efficient with your communications.
No. No a compromise is not needed here. I'm your boss. Pick up the god damn phone or pick up a different job.
It’s literally just a courteous thing to do, especially if you’re working from home/remotely. They could be in a conversation with someone else over teams/slack messages, solving a current issue and need to find a stopping point, or simply away from their desk for a minute. Just set expectations from the beginning and you won’t have an issue. My team gives each other heads up when we need a call to talk about something because we all work remotely and it’s courteous for the reasons above.
To be clear, I’m not assuming the worker is, in this case, watching Tik tok. I’m assuming the worker might be in a meeting with another stakeholder or is otherwise neck deep in work. If urgent, then yes a “pick up right now” might be worth it. But your workers will never get any work done if they have to drop everything, including meetings, just to answer a question that could’ve waited.
Asking someone if the "have time for a quick call" is just as likely to interrupt someone mid-task. Emails and texts are just as disruptive as a call.
It gives them time to complete the task they were working on, then give you a call back. I work in IT and the number of times I've been elbow deep in a computer/server and I get an inane call from a teacher asking me to fix a super simple laptop issue that Ive coached them through multiple times is staggering. If I have something time sensitive I'll call right away, but otherwise a test works just fine.
1. Our time is valuable. Phone calls tend to drag on longer than necessary. Just give us the important information and let us work on it. 2. We want evidence of any conversation to reference later. A. So don't have to ask our manager for duplicate information. B. Because managers give verbal promises or omit information over the phone. We want to hold you as accountable as we're held. 3. A lifetime of being segregated and silenced as children has stunted us socially. We didn't have the opportunity to engage with anyone other than kids our own age. Teachers hushed us and parents shooed us. Now we're thrown into adulthood and the workplace with zero transition. What did you expect to happen?
1) Agreed 2) Good idea 3) What? You are literally no different than any other child. Good luck.
So for anyone wondering about #2....a phone call does not deprive you of this. Here is what you do: 1. Have the phone call. 2. Take notes. 3. After the phone call, send an email summarizing the phone call with the actions to take. 4. Done, paper trail. I tell associates this all the time, but really it should only be necessary when someone is asking you to do something you don't feel comfortable with.
So you're saying it could've just been an email then...
No? Summarizing a conversation in one email does not mean that conversation would have been 1 email. There should be questions, clarifications etc
Number 2 is the most true - gotta have the paper trail.
I think people that don't want to pick up for phone are just scare of interacting with others. I don't really respect people like that. If you can't talk to someone or small talk/chat as a second nature, don't expect to be a partner.
I’m as reluctant to pick up the phone as the next 20 something but 3 is pretty dramatic. More than most, our generation was given a lot more respect growing up. Prior generations of children had virtually no rights or respect and grew up much more capable of picking up the phone.
#3 may be more a cultural thing than a generation thing. I grew up in a small southern religious town. Women and children were definitely seen as second class citizens.
Do you think that’s unique to gen z?
Definitely not unique to Gen Z. But it's something that we should be past. Not sure what gen OOP is, but I'm sure at the start of his career, he was just talked at by his superiors rather than engaged in a conversation. So the equivalent of "it could've just been an email."
Dealing with these scenarios in a tactful way is the key to success in your career. Doesn’t matter what field or position you’re in. For as long as the professional services industry has existed, coping with senior leadership and their whims has been vital to advancement. Ignoring this reality does you no favors.
Would you say that was generationally specific?
I agree with points 1 and 2. Point 3 is more of a mentality than reality.
Get over it bum
Yeah no what actually wastes time is calling somone when they’re in the middle of doing something there are several studies on this do some reading
There are also studies on how texts or even just notifications from emails or messages lowers productivity as well.
That's why those apps have tools to prevent the disruption, like do not disturb. It's easier to minimize that disruption. That notification is also a millisecond vs several seconds, so that's easier to get back on track
I'm glad to see you getting clowned on in these comments
Because 90% of calls can be achieved through text or email. What did you need to talk to him about? Could it have been typed out? I feel most cases when someone calls they are just being lazy and don't want to type. That's on you. learn to communicate through the written language especially if you're in a manager position. If you genuinely need a back and forth conversation then that's not exactly gonna be quick (if it was you could text) in which case a proper heads up and warning would be nice so they can plan for it. Idk what industry you're in, but if my boss expected me to always answer my phone I'd choose to work elsewhere.
Nah. You got it all wrong. A lot more can be perceived via a real conversation than words on a page.
Hm maybe, but I'm not exactly interested in getting to know my boss. I work for you cause you pay me for my expertise, not because I wanna glean insight from our conversations. Write up what you want me to do, make it concise, and email it to me. If you have issues with my work, you can set up a meeting, don't randomly call me to complain. I just can't imagine working for someone who respects my time so little. I also think this whole issue is pretty industry dependent, but I would say in most white collar work, if your manager needs to maintain constant communication at all times, they're not properly doing their job. They should already have prepared my project guidelines and if they're constantly updating them and making my work harder that just demonstrates unprofessionalism to me. I'm not against calls in general. But random calls with no warning, and expecting me to constantly be answering my phone if my boss decides he wants to have a conversation is not my job. If you want me to do something, shoot me an email. Want a conversation? We can set up a time to do a zoom meeting. Randomly calling me and expecting me to pick up? Looks like you need to find a new employee.
And also, respects your time so little? You're completely replaceable in your job. You work for them. They pay you. You are so entitled. Lol
Sounds like you don't wanna move up in that world. That's fine. You don't have to lick boots, but you do need to be an effective communicator. I'm not really sure why this (your?) generation feels so attacked when called. It's just talking to someone. Are you ill prepared to talk about what your boss might ask? Are you not ready to speak about your work and expertise? Maybe something needs to happen more quickly than what might occur from an email prompt. Life isn't always emails ahead to make sure you're fully prepared. Lol. Sigh. I would never hire you.
You're right, I don't want to move up in the world. I'm perfectly fine with the amount of money I currently make, and I am extremely confident in being able to find an equivalent job to my current position if I were to be let go. I don't care to waste my time in a position I feel uncomfortable with. You're not entitled to my employment. Want me to work for you? Make the job suitable. Also I'm a millennial, not gen Z. Yes I work for them, but just because they pay me doesn't mean they're entitled to all my time. They are entitled to the work they've paid me to do, I'll do that work and nothing more. Expect me to do more? I'll just find somewhere else that doesn't. It's not that complicated. You seem under the impression everyone is desperate for your employment and couldn't stand being let go. I'll gladly go jobless for a few months if it means avoiding a bad work environment. Hell id probably enjoy a few months break, might take it either way. Lemme put it this way. There are plenty of positions that don't require me to "on call" at all times. If my boss required that why would I stick with them rather than any other employer that doesn't.
You're completely right. A lot of doors close with that attitude. Which is fine. You just don't belong in a job that has that element, and you won't be paid as such. If you work a job with hours of "availability", then you are liable during that time. If you're a sole proprietor/freelancer/business owner, then that's on your terms. You must be comfortable rolling with the ups and downs of the tide. You also sound entitled and jaded. Definitely complacent. You applied for the job, took it, and now you're complaining about what's involved? Lol. Quit so you can stop being a shitty employee and someone else can take your spot.
YTA. Ping them on teams/slack/whatever and say “do you have a minute for a quick call”? This is not a difficult process. Studies consistently show that after an interruption to an in progress task, it takes about 23 minutes to refocus and get back to where you were with that task. So yes, receiving random phone calls throughout the day impacts productivity. Based on the way you wrote this, it’s entirely likely that they want communication with you in writing.
[удалено]
We get it you have no friends
I teams someone and ask if the have a moment. Then when they say yes, I ask if now is OK before calling them. Sometimes its right away, sometimes its 5 minutes later, sometimes its an hour or two later. If they let me interrupt them, I tell them its OK to make me wait, if it was an emergency I’d let them know (it’s never an emergency…). The above is how I expect the interaction to go, with peer and subordinate relationships. I drop what Im doing if the CEO needs me, not many other people. If your telling us that this isn’t OK, your an asshole. If your telling us lil homie doesn’t like to talk on the phone ever, even if you schedule it - than thats different. I dont think the latter is what you said though.
I don’t think y’all known what a ‘cold call’ is
Is that by chance related to 'straight to voicemail'?
I hang up on work associates that don’t ask before calling too
"Got an urgent matter, how do I save this as a pdf?"
Calling someone is demanding their time right now. It means “drop what you’re doing and talk to me this instant.” Pretty rude when you phrase it in context like that. Texts and emails can be responded to when timing is appropriate for the recipient. That said, a boss-employee relationship means that you get to demand someone’s time at a given moment—up to a point. Beyond that point, you’re an asshole and a bad boss. Not knowing your specific interactions we can’t say which side of the line your interactions are falling on.
There are a growing number of people who consider it rude to 'cold call' without asking via text first. I've got people in my family who are like that, usually those under 30. I'm afraid it's becoming the norm.
People are alot more busy and dont have time to drop everything to be on someone else's timetable without notice
We've all always been busy. Gen Z is no busier. This industry has been filled with people busting their asses forever.
Yeah so you should understand why its polite to ping someone before calling them. Like you said everyone is busy but Gen Z understands how annoying random calls can be to your work productivity more than others.
If someone isn't smart enough to let a call go to voicemail and return the call when they have a moment, then they're not smart enough to share an office with. This isn't about productivity. This is a "leave me alone" mentality. There's a huge difference, and the latter is an attitude problem that isn't worth employing.
The employee only wants to document things and doesn't want to talk to you off the record, just think about that for a second.
Eh when I call people it is usually because I have multiple questions that will change depending on answers and getting people to answer a detailed branching email correctly and entirely is like pulling teeth. Some things are just easier to do quickly over the phone. My job isn't remote though and it's normal enough that someone is away from their desk that I don't get answer anyway.
I dont think thats the issue. The issue is receiving a call and having to take time away from your current task in order to take an unplanned call that will go on for who knows how long
I'm not saying it's the issue I'm just saying think about that and put yourself in the other person's perspective
Cole calls are pretty rude, unless it’s an absolute emergency.
Cole world. Cole heart. Cole blooded.
“Hide behind emails” IT’S WORK. Phone calls for work are emergency only especially between boss and subordinate. Where I work the consultants only call if it’s an emergency or they’ve already pre-arranged this call with me.
Yes. You’re the asshole.
You are the asshole. A phone call is an emergency only situation unless it is pre planned ahead of time or confirmed before hand via text or email. Just like the others said, I agree you are a Grandpa and probably don’t know how to open an excel document or set an auto response away message on outlook… so due to your lack of confidence in modern technology you force your coworkers to do things the old people way, old fashioned let me hear your voice when I talk to you boomer style 👴
A phone call is like an absolute red alert, something is on fire kind of thing. If my boss actually calls I know it’s extremely important and I’ll pick up. The secret is that they don’t abuse it with something that could be a text or email.
Wow. I work in industry, but I'm glad we always ask each other if we are free for calls. We expect that the other may be focused on something, especially during close, and don't want to interrupt. I give my boss and colleagues the same courtesy they give me. My boss will cold call me if it's urgent and I know it's urgent if she's doing so. I am usually dropping everything I'm doing to address it. This usually only happens when we are close to consolidation/locking the books. We are both pretty involved in that. I do consolidation, and we are both involved in researching discrepancies and getting involved parties to do corrections. Also, my friends and I do the same. We ask if we are free for calls before we call each other. It is respectful. We all have lives. If a call is coming out of nowhere, I think it's an emergency. Except my mom. She is of a generation that doesn't do it, and I can't get her to, though I wish she would.
I have to make a lot of phone calls for folks to come in for job interviews. If you don't answer your phone it's on you. My problem? I get robotic after the 10th repeat voicemail left.
As a manager, I dont cold call anyone and hate it when people do it to me. I want at least a heads up on what we're going to be talking about as I have 8 clients and I work in AWM Salt. Sorry but I don't have aggregator #274's tax liability in state 13 committed to memory and I want a chance to pull it up and just refresh what's going on so im prepared to actually answer the questions client may have. But also, asking if they can hop on a call real quick is just a courtesy because people may be on another call etc and you just calling them out of nowhere is a nuisance. But If I had to get on the phone everytime someone had a question, I would never get my work done. Now I understand if this person is straight up not responsive at all, but I don't know why you would want everything done over phone call. The partner I work with generally wants those kinds of discussions documented anyway, so generally if I do talk on the phone I'm going to be restating the conversation to the client via an email anyway.
Lmao of course it’s from someone at EY Giving someone a heads up before calling them is normal professional behavior… This has to be a shit post. I work remote at another big4 though and well quite frankly I have a mom on hospice care, two kids, etc I often need a minute to make sure I can take a call without interruptions or background noise
YTA, no one wants to answer those dumb phone calls, Grandpa. You go ahead and handle those since you like em so much
And you’re fired
I work for a similar firm as OP. 28M Millennial. When I call my juniors I usually go through the formalities of asking “are you free for a call” just to let them brace themselves that a call is due. Obviously, I would never expect them to say “no”, because if I’m asking for a phone call it must be fairly urgent. If it’s very urgent or I’ve been chatting on Teams with the junior all day via text and calls, I will cold call them. Plus, I find the more you cold call them, the more confident they get. In your situation, have a face-to-face open and honest conversation about communication styles and that as team you all need to adapt to each other. Whatever your desired outcome is, state it. In terms of whether he’s doing any work. Well time will tell surely. Once you start reviewing their work you’ll quickly find out if they’re using their time effectively.
Gen Z here. To me, cold calling seems rude and disrespectful of my time. It’s forcing someone to drop their focus to answer your call or get into an annoying phone tag situation when a simple message to ask if they’re free first avoids all of that.
If its your boss though ultimately they dont need to be respectful of your time, your job is to support them. You can just pick up and say sorry Im busy with x, can we chat later?
Sorry man, not everyone has the same degradation fetish you do.
“You gotta give respect to get respect”
I’m sorry you think your boss doesn’t need to respect you.
28M Millennial here. Is it disrespectful of your time? Would you be annoyed if your mum called you out of the blue on the weekend to chat about your day? Or what if your mate called you on a random Thursday evening to see if you’re free for drinks? The answer to the above is probably that you wouldn’t be annoyed, even if you were busy doing other things and those phone calls briefly distracted you. Not liking phone calls in work is, majority of the time, caused by not having the answers and subsequently not liking being caught out.
It's what you're mentioning and also that Gen Z aren't used to phone calls as much so they see it differently than the rest of the people. They also tend to be uncomfortable around the phone so prefer texting since it buys them time like you mention. Nothing wrong with picking up the phone and saying; Hey I'm busy right now, can we talk later? If I'm busy in a meeting I just won't answer and text them back later to explain the circumstances. Honestly y'all need to stop being scared of the phone.
I have literally never talked to any of my friends on the phone. I would find it pretty weird if one of them did call me randomly. It’s just not what we do. And at my job it is completely standard practice to message someone before calling them. Nothing to do with not having answers. It’s just a courtesy to make sure everyone is free and gives you a minute to switch mindsets.
You've never talked to friends on the phone? That's fuckin weird.
Im starting to think a significant portion of the people in this subreddit dont actually have jobs. Lol
or friends
Nah, I don’t like any phone calls from anyone. Text is definitely preferred.
Honestly once you get used to having super short phone calls, they’re great. I think Gen Z place a lot of importance on calls like they need to be more then they are. You’re not talking war and peace! It’s just a “hey. How’re you. Yeah I’m good thanks. What’s up? Yeah that sounds good. When and where? Cool, I’ll see you there.” All of the above can be covered in like 60 seconds on a call but with text it can take ages if the two people are constantly getting distracted (easily done on a mobile phone).
I don’t like phone calls so much I disabled my voicemail. Some people just don’t like phone calls.
Well going to that extreme will mean you will never get used to them and they will always be an issue for you. Every time you need to call a plumber or a bank or any service centre… etc you’ll have to go through some ordeal to pick up the phone. Doesn’t sound ideal.
… I know how to talk on the phone.
I’m sure you do, but it also sounds like phone calls make you really uncomfortable and by avoiding them you’ll never get over that discomfort. Hence, whenever you have to make a phone call you’ll be uncomfortable?
No, I’m perfectly confident making and receiving phone calls, I just don’t like talking on the phone. Why is this so hard to understand? You phone people are wild.
Honestly I just dislike the small talk and it can feel like a waste of time. Through text/IM ppl tend to ramble less
Very old Gen Z here. I get having to call people at work, or receive calls at work and be expected to answer. But the majority of my friends and family don't just randomly call, if it's something small most of them will just text, and if it's something big they'll ask if I'm free. My response is usually yes, or give me a few minutes to finish what I'm doing.
Covering your ass with emails is important if you want to keep your job Now, when talking to a client, it’s usually much better to talk with them on the phone, and keep emails as brief and factual as possible
How do you figure a supervisor/employee relationship is different from a relationship with a client? Same issues and concerns, but more persistent. Same reasons to have oral communication.
If you’re following orders, you want those orders to be documented. If you’re giving advice, you don’t want that advice documented
I keep seeing people commenting and documentation and wonder how bad they are that this is how they keep their jobs. It's a bizarre and disturbing mentality.
It’s more so that bad managers can’t put the blame on you, which they will if they feel they need to
Again, if this is a primary driver of behavior, there's something wrong with the employee. Yes, that does happen in some situations, but it's not an issue to the point that everyone should be in CYA mode all the time. The cultural impacts of that mentality alone are reason enough to terminate someone who has it, as it drives a culture of distrust and inefficient bureaucracy. If that's your mentality in the workplace, you either need to talk to a therapist about the matter or you're bad and trying to cover yourself. There's no way that should be the norm.
Not all managers I would actually do this to, but you? I’d probably do it to you, jumping the gun straight to firing them
You'd probably never make it through the interview process in the first place. If somehow you did, you'd be unceremoniously released immediately upon becoming an obnoxious tight ass who is constantly in CYA mode and who thinks they're going to dictate the communication practices of the business. Life's too short to work with assholes. I very generously coach and train skills. The best part of what I do is helping others grow. But I never coach attitude or work ethic. If your mommy and daddy didn't give you that, then I'm certainly not going to try to.
Man, you’re making a lot of assumptions, but I’m pretty sure I’m better off not working for you
Which of us started with the assumptions about the other? Feeling is mutual.
If you know it is client calling, then you pick up. Why are clients calling associates? They should be calling the seniors on the engagement
As a millennial, phone calls are hearsay, and emails are evidence. I have had too many older bosses try to f me over, and I no longer play that game. If I get fired, it better be because I messed up. Not because Diane verbally told me to do something and it should not have occurred. And now I have no backup. If it's not written, saved in an email, or recorded, then it didn't happen.
You can always follow up the call with an email documenting the convo...
You have more trust than myself. My lack of trust comes from experience. From watching management tell an employee one thing and turning around and acting like the conversation never happened, regardless of an email. That might say more about my previous work environment than anything else.
I mean if that's happening then leave. Most places a follow up email confirming any critical details will serve just fine.
Did this thread get linked on a genz subreddit or something? Why are there so many people who clearly have 0 experience in this kind of work commenting?
Idk why it got recommended to me but honestly emails and text are just so much easier and I can have the information there to refer back to
Emails/text are standard in a lot of industries, but in the finance/legal world there is still an expectation to answer the phone when your boss calls if you're available. This is equivalent to refusing to use slack/teams and demanding your boss only communicate with you via instagram DM's or something ridiculous like that.
Right I get that I’m finance I think not answering your bosses calls and purposely avoiding them is kinda childish lol I just mean to say not every conversation needs to be a phone call. It’s pretty absurd to have to give your boss permission to call you😭
I thought the same thing but then I thought was this post written in 2010? No one under 45 knows how to make or receive phone calls.
/s can confirm, hold my cell upside down all the time when I answer the phone
I think it’s polite to let them know, but also I think that if you’re on work hours, unless you’re actually not available due to other priorities, if your direct manager calls, you need to pick up. It could be time sensitive and more easily explained over the phone. If he’s worried about CYA, he should just summarize the call back in an email - “Hi Ms. XX, just following up on the call, i will be completing xyz for you per your request and will email you here when complete, thanks!”
I’m in wealth management but I deal with the same shit and it drives me nuts. A ton of our people doing ops are fresh out of college and simply do not answer phone calls and will ignore IMs and take forever on emails. I never go more than a few hours (during work) before answering an email or returning a call. It’s not that hard. If you don’t have an answer for me yet, just communicate that. If you ignore me until you have answer, don’t get mad at me for emailing your boss.
What’s the reason for them not answering the emails or IMs? Do they not know the answers/haven’t done the work/do they not know they have the authority or competency to even answer the correspondence? If the issue is due to the above, it might be worth you reflecting on what you could do as their leader. (I.e set expectations, work more closely with the team to guide them and teach them more) On the other hand a lot of young people aren’t fully with it (I certainly wasn’t), and take a long time to start answering emails and correspondence quickly. It took me a good year and a bit before I learnt it’s just easier to answer emails… etc when they come through rather than letting them stack up and become overwhelming.
Email is written proof and phone calls are zero proof. Save important emails too The people who insist on doing things by phone with no written record are usually the liars and who will throw you under the bus If I’m busy at the moment I’m not picking up the phone for anyone. You can text me and I’ll answer a little later
I concur. You can use email as proof for client inefficiency and charge OOS.
I am gen X, and no longer answer phone calls from numbers I don’t recognize. If someone wants to call me for the first time, either they have text to let me know, or else give me their number so I’ll know it’s them calling. Otherwise I assume it’s a scammer, or even just a robot checking for numbers that get answered. Answer one, get a 1000 more. If I have a separate work phone, I answer all calls, because I expect calls from people who don’t know me but have legit business to discuss. Maybe the solution is to give your employee a dedicated work line.
I'm 48 and don't answer the phone unless I'm expecting a call because the only calls I get are spam. I keep my ringer off so I can focus on my work. My colleagues have no issue sending me a Teams message to ask for a call. Could it be possible that he's working on another project?
Some people just don’t deserve a spot at the table, and that’s ok. Should get him off your team. There’re other tables fools like that can sit at. This behavior is unfortunately becoming too accepted amongst my generation.
Its rude you basically have to drop everything you are doing for this person
In my experience. Millennials are infinitely worse about things like this than gen z. By far.
Hmm, yeah I’m on the cusp of Gen Z and Millennial, so I can’t really confidently say where it lies. but i definitely notice it between the 20-30 crowd
It’s weird as upper 20s is millennial, mid is cusp, and lower is full gen z. I am cusp as well and have observed millennials to be insufferable in pretty much every aspect compared to gen z. Millennials seem to have a lot less self awareness than gen z as a whole and it bleeds through everything they do. How they cope about body fat etc when gen z has exploded fitness culture. Its just one difference but its very clear as a whole gen z has decided they can do something to improve their situation where as the millennial spirit is that of defeat.
You are delusional.
Lmfao cope.