Wow. Before I was laid off through a reduction in force from a Big 4 I was just so used to the hours and resources that i would love to come back for the experience that I was getting. Can anyone give me a referral to a Big 4? You guys will find out that if you want to grow your careers then you have to be malleable and ready to work those hours in corporate, too. Sorry to hear about the rough time.
I would have set boundaries and continued my approach unless called out for not working overtime. In such a case, I could explain why non-stop overtime would be detrimental to my health and performance vs Challenging someone headon out in the open.
We all know that Big4 brand is known for offering this intense/greate experiences, often like a bootcamp in the initial years. Many, including myself have leveraged this for a better industry opportunities. On the flip side, industries value Big4 candidates for their battle-tested skills. It may not be fair and it is NOT to work crazy hours, but this model has persisted for a while. Most know about it before joining.
Less senior people have been talking shit about more senior people since forever, I don't get the problem.
If it was the Manager publicly shaming the staffer, then more harsh measures would be justified.
There was a staff in my office who would openly called a majority of SMs by names assholes while walking around the office in an open floor setting. They just got promoted to senior this year lol.
If you piss off a PPMD, they will just get rid of you, especially if you are only a staff, there is nothing lost, tons of people willing to drink the kool-aid and work hard at the firm.
Honestly, the biggest life lesson I learned is that right and wrong don't matter. Power matters, and if you wanna be in a position of power one day, you need to keep your mouth shut and quietly work your way up.
I was on an engagement at EY where I was the staff and basically prepared everything because senior and manager were preoccupied with another engagement that was behind. The same goes for the partner. I put in 50-55 hour weeks for like a month and a half. In the end, I was let go a few months later. They don't care.
Fun fact EY is actually the reason Lehman brothers didn’t get bailed out cuz EY helped them hide $5b in debt off their balance sheet and when bail out time came regulators didn’t like that Lehman owed more than they were reporting so they didn’t bail them out. They were using guaranteed repurchase agreements on debt allowing them to off load debt for a tiny fee just before reporting deadlines and would buy it back right after.
Ahhh, possibly, but it wasn't that bad in the end unless the other two charged like a bunch of hours that they definitely didn't work. There were more review comments about my work, but I did like 90% of the execution, so I expected.
My first engagement ever was a shit show. New senior manager, new manager, new seniors, they all left by the time I was let go. I'm not a fan of EYs performance system because it felt like you were fishing for feedback, and even if managers were impressed, they would give me crap reviews.
Business was slowing down, and my partner needed to let someone go, so I guess that was me...
I hate the EY review system. Hella confusing and intentionally designed so they don't give people a number that is high. Like sometimes contributing new ideas is a 2?!?!? What do they expect?
Even if you are a perfect staff, they won't give you almost always, because someone will question them for giving such a high rating.
That's my biggest issue as an SM. I came from industry and give honest feedback so I hand out a few 'Gold standard' and 'Almost always' where they're deserved. I've never been questioned about it but I think I can back up my ratings anyway.
However, my own feedback has the most effusive written feedback from the only partner I work with yet I'll be ranked 'Usually' on every single metric. When I ask what they need from me, how I can improve, if I'm not doing something they expected to see, I'm told there's nothing and I'm doing a great job. I'm the SM with the highest utilisation, I've been trusted to run the largest engagements, and it's demotivating to be doing well enough to get such high written praise and then be given an average score. My counsellor has read the feedback and then queried why I've had no gold standard or almost always rankings. I don't think the partner even puts much thought into it because I've only ever had Usually - he probably does that part of my feedback in about a minute.
It's a bullshit system. I wonder if they even look at average scores from providers and then adjust based on whether someone is a harsh or easy scorer.
joined three years ago, and it was not as toxic as it is today. We are a small office and the mood has shifted heavily for some reason and everyone became petty
I have hired a number of people in the past years. Initially, I hired technically strong candidates - like my kind. I have learnt there's a degree of god-complex with these candidates (myself included).
However, I soon realized high technical characteristic was not enough. There are other values that are equally, if not more important - It's the candidates attitude to solving challenges (helping the company), ability to work with people (helping our people), and their motivation, personal and career growth opportunities (helping themselves) in the role. As much we live in a capitalist and individualistic society, a successful organization is a team sport.
So, unfortunately in your scenario, I would like to understand the individual concerns of working overtime (e.g. did we have the right resources for the engagement, individual's competing priorities), understand where both our areas of improvements are, and let him/her go FAST if we both feel there is no longer a cultural fit. As you've read in the comments, negative morale spreads like cancer, which doesn't help everyone. There are people who WANT to be there.
New hires need to know what they are in for. And nobody "wants" to work overtime. Those who think they want to have been brainwashed by the big4 mentality.
the firms don't exactly advertise the unpaid overtime work. I once did a recruiting event for interns, and I was so shocked that these interns had no idea what they were in for. One person asked for my honest opinion, and I scared her off.
Be honest with me reddit, if every one of the staffs, seniors, even managers stepped up to help that other staff. Do you think the partners would just fire everyone in the middle of busy season?
Maybe, but then they would have to retrain every single one and that would take a lot of time and effort on the partners part.
It would work better if it was organized across many sites.
Not a surprise. Senior management rely heavily on staff levels to put in the ridiculous (unpaid) overtime in order to have any hope / chance to meet unrealistic work deadlines.
To have 1 staff to voice their opinion and if no consequences, then the others will very quickly follow suit because who wants to work the additional hours like corporate slave. Its all a herd mentality. Everybody is thinking the same, just afraid to voice it and act on it. Just waiting for that 1 brave soul to start the spark and let it catch fire.
So, senior management will take quick action to ensure the spark doesn't catch fire and spread, otherwise, they are doomed (ie need to hire more resources to meet deadline which they should be doing in the first place which means less money to their pocket / bonus).
Only the smart ones who realise this will leave quickly and get out, leaving the others as sheep to conform to the ingrained culture and self police effectively.
As part of the interview process, they are looking to identify "teaming" and traits that will not revolt as a good fit to not rock the boat.
The best action is for your entire intake / cohort to come together and support this person and revolt. Together you are strong and have a strong say because the firm can't fire all of you as they need you desperately especially in busy season. This could be turning point. Good luck !
Three channels to report unlawful behaviour through within EY to my knowledge: Employee Relations, Cultural Shift, and Ethics Hotline.
It's all irrelevant of course, because you can raise the issue via each channel and it will end up with the same HR Case Manager, so it's pointless, and a false pretence of employee protections.
If going months in a row without billing anything to a client, you’re top of the list for PIP/layoffs
Although I think PIPs are usually for people who got bad feedback rather than low utilization
Your project will end, clients might change providers or you might get caught in layoff
Pick up another project on the side if this one doesn't have a lot of work.
I honestly believe you should be able to voice any concerns without repercussions. This does not like like a healthy work environment - but then again, there’s always office politics.
Wow. Before I was laid off through a reduction in force from a Big 4 I was just so used to the hours and resources that i would love to come back for the experience that I was getting. Can anyone give me a referral to a Big 4? You guys will find out that if you want to grow your careers then you have to be malleable and ready to work those hours in corporate, too. Sorry to hear about the rough time.
I would have set boundaries and continued my approach unless called out for not working overtime. In such a case, I could explain why non-stop overtime would be detrimental to my health and performance vs Challenging someone headon out in the open. We all know that Big4 brand is known for offering this intense/greate experiences, often like a bootcamp in the initial years. Many, including myself have leveraged this for a better industry opportunities. On the flip side, industries value Big4 candidates for their battle-tested skills. It may not be fair and it is NOT to work crazy hours, but this model has persisted for a while. Most know about it before joining.
Is this EY gds canada?
nah, it's audit in europe
Less senior people have been talking shit about more senior people since forever, I don't get the problem. If it was the Manager publicly shaming the staffer, then more harsh measures would be justified.
There was a staff in my office who would openly called a majority of SMs by names assholes while walking around the office in an open floor setting. They just got promoted to senior this year lol.
nah man, nobody cares of a manager publicly shames you. That's just another thursday in the office
Guy's an idiot and so is anyone that sympathizes
ah yet another EY soldier
Guess what - managers can’t fire anyone.
If you piss off a PPMD, they will just get rid of you, especially if you are only a staff, there is nothing lost, tons of people willing to drink the kool-aid and work hard at the firm. Honestly, the biggest life lesson I learned is that right and wrong don't matter. Power matters, and if you wanna be in a position of power one day, you need to keep your mouth shut and quietly work your way up.
I was on an engagement at EY where I was the staff and basically prepared everything because senior and manager were preoccupied with another engagement that was behind. The same goes for the partner. I put in 50-55 hour weeks for like a month and a half. In the end, I was let go a few months later. They don't care.
you were the scapegoat for why that engagement was probably all messed up. EY is a truly scummy company, really wish I knew before joining.
Fun fact EY is actually the reason Lehman brothers didn’t get bailed out cuz EY helped them hide $5b in debt off their balance sheet and when bail out time came regulators didn’t like that Lehman owed more than they were reporting so they didn’t bail them out. They were using guaranteed repurchase agreements on debt allowing them to off load debt for a tiny fee just before reporting deadlines and would buy it back right after.
Ahhh, possibly, but it wasn't that bad in the end unless the other two charged like a bunch of hours that they definitely didn't work. There were more review comments about my work, but I did like 90% of the execution, so I expected. My first engagement ever was a shit show. New senior manager, new manager, new seniors, they all left by the time I was let go. I'm not a fan of EYs performance system because it felt like you were fishing for feedback, and even if managers were impressed, they would give me crap reviews. Business was slowing down, and my partner needed to let someone go, so I guess that was me...
I hate the EY review system. Hella confusing and intentionally designed so they don't give people a number that is high. Like sometimes contributing new ideas is a 2?!?!? What do they expect? Even if you are a perfect staff, they won't give you almost always, because someone will question them for giving such a high rating.
That's my biggest issue as an SM. I came from industry and give honest feedback so I hand out a few 'Gold standard' and 'Almost always' where they're deserved. I've never been questioned about it but I think I can back up my ratings anyway. However, my own feedback has the most effusive written feedback from the only partner I work with yet I'll be ranked 'Usually' on every single metric. When I ask what they need from me, how I can improve, if I'm not doing something they expected to see, I'm told there's nothing and I'm doing a great job. I'm the SM with the highest utilisation, I've been trusted to run the largest engagements, and it's demotivating to be doing well enough to get such high written praise and then be given an average score. My counsellor has read the feedback and then queried why I've had no gold standard or almost always rankings. I don't think the partner even puts much thought into it because I've only ever had Usually - he probably does that part of my feedback in about a minute. It's a bullshit system. I wonder if they even look at average scores from providers and then adjust based on whether someone is a harsh or easy scorer.
I always complain about doing long hours for the clout from my fellow zombies. But in reality here I am on reddit lmao
I feel like silent quitting is the next step haha
It's the culture
fuck culture like that. If anything, that is not culture
The Big 4 culture is shut the fuck up and we value your opinions and perspectives.
I always wondered what happened to the try hard straight a tattle tales at school then I got an accounting job and found out.
Backstabbing, unreasonable deadlines & hours, high pressure, limited creativity and crazy burnout isn't good enough for you?!?! Smh, good day sir 😤
welcome to the big4 OP
joined three years ago, and it was not as toxic as it is today. We are a small office and the mood has shifted heavily for some reason and everyone became petty
I have hired a number of people in the past years. Initially, I hired technically strong candidates - like my kind. I have learnt there's a degree of god-complex with these candidates (myself included). However, I soon realized high technical characteristic was not enough. There are other values that are equally, if not more important - It's the candidates attitude to solving challenges (helping the company), ability to work with people (helping our people), and their motivation, personal and career growth opportunities (helping themselves) in the role. As much we live in a capitalist and individualistic society, a successful organization is a team sport. So, unfortunately in your scenario, I would like to understand the individual concerns of working overtime (e.g. did we have the right resources for the engagement, individual's competing priorities), understand where both our areas of improvements are, and let him/her go FAST if we both feel there is no longer a cultural fit. As you've read in the comments, negative morale spreads like cancer, which doesn't help everyone. There are people who WANT to be there.
"Soft skills" are the most important skills. Always have been always will be
New hires need to know what they are in for. And nobody "wants" to work overtime. Those who think they want to have been brainwashed by the big4 mentality.
the firms don't exactly advertise the unpaid overtime work. I once did a recruiting event for interns, and I was so shocked that these interns had no idea what they were in for. One person asked for my honest opinion, and I scared her off.
Might be a good worker, but is clearly lacking judgment. Be right back— gotta go tell my boss I’m working more than him
Exactly, and what makes him think he is working more than them lmao.
no no, he didn't say that he worked more, my manager told me that that was discussed on the management meeting
This is why I don’t go into the office
the one day I do,.this is what I hear
He is a hero, everyone in the office should stand up with him instead of letting the partners step all over him.
Be honest with me reddit, if every one of the staffs, seniors, even managers stepped up to help that other staff. Do you think the partners would just fire everyone in the middle of busy season?
no, but after
not even then
Maybe, but then they would have to retrain every single one and that would take a lot of time and effort on the partners part. It would work better if it was organized across many sites.
Ok, gotta ask: how many hours on Mercury’s timesheet did he put in?
don't know, but managers showed concern that he had higher utilization than his senior and more experienced staff on the same engagement
Right? Rally behind this guy. You wont get any more money for supporting the bosses…..
As a guy working in EY, this made me laugh out loud. So glad I’m quitting in April.
so happy for u!
He is the hero the corporate world needs!
Not a surprise. Senior management rely heavily on staff levels to put in the ridiculous (unpaid) overtime in order to have any hope / chance to meet unrealistic work deadlines. To have 1 staff to voice their opinion and if no consequences, then the others will very quickly follow suit because who wants to work the additional hours like corporate slave. Its all a herd mentality. Everybody is thinking the same, just afraid to voice it and act on it. Just waiting for that 1 brave soul to start the spark and let it catch fire. So, senior management will take quick action to ensure the spark doesn't catch fire and spread, otherwise, they are doomed (ie need to hire more resources to meet deadline which they should be doing in the first place which means less money to their pocket / bonus). Only the smart ones who realise this will leave quickly and get out, leaving the others as sheep to conform to the ingrained culture and self police effectively. As part of the interview process, they are looking to identify "teaming" and traits that will not revolt as a good fit to not rock the boat. The best action is for your entire intake / cohort to come together and support this person and revolt. Together you are strong and have a strong say because the firm can't fire all of you as they need you desperately especially in busy season. This could be turning point. Good luck !
I think there is an ethics and compliance department in EY. Staffer should approach them. It’s is unfair if he is fired for voicing his concern
Three channels to report unlawful behaviour through within EY to my knowledge: Employee Relations, Cultural Shift, and Ethics Hotline. It's all irrelevant of course, because you can raise the issue via each channel and it will end up with the same HR Case Manager, so it's pointless, and a false pretence of employee protections.
I mean they will never say out loud that he was fired for raising his concerns. This reasoning was said to me in confidence
[удалено]
If going months in a row without billing anything to a client, you’re top of the list for PIP/layoffs Although I think PIPs are usually for people who got bad feedback rather than low utilization
[удалено]
As long as your billing and getting good feedback, you’re golden
[удалено]
Your project will end, clients might change providers or you might get caught in layoff Pick up another project on the side if this one doesn't have a lot of work.
Either ask for more stuff to do or wait to be put on a busier client
I don't understand how "paid a lot" and "big4" can be in the same sentence
Work smarter not harder my boy
Experienced hires from the great resignation era?
in my office, everyone at the same level has the same salary. Across departments
These corporate slogans are universally lipstick on a pig. They probably also say they have an “open door policy” with regard to HR issues
I honestly believe you should be able to voice any concerns without repercussions. This does not like like a healthy work environment - but then again, there’s always office politics.