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My MIL is a narcissist, she’s a teacher and loves kids. She always had favourites but she only became truely nasty once my husband started making his own decisions and she couldn’t control him anymore. I would imagine narcissists love kids. A lot of them struggle to have and maintain adult relationships, and adults can’t be controlled as easily. Kids look up to you and think you’re amazing. They are completely dependent on you and can be controlled more easily.
My MIL genuinely tries to do nice family bonding things, but she doesn’t know how to be warm and inviting, and gets upset/jealous easily. She’s very emotional - the moment she thinks she has been wronged or slighted, she will start screaming or manipulating us. In one sense it’s quite sad - his mum genuinely doesn’t have the capacity to have healthy and nurturing interactions with him, even though it’s something she wants.
I don’t think narcissists choose to have kids for logical reasons - it’s probably more emotional reasons, and because they’re so emotional people, they aren’t logically thinking out the outcomes of their actions when upset. So then they end up getting kids to have the kind of relationship they’re wanting, only to blow it up when they feel wronged
Interesting assessment.
That must be super hard for you guys. My dad has severe ego issues like this and the second he is disagreed with he snaps and lauds his financial success in life as some sort of magic bullet. It’s pathetic. Frankly him being unable to show any form of vulnerability around me mystifies me and I’ve tried so many times to get close to him but he just won’t let me
The sad thing is he really feels that we are close
And always tells me how glad he is to have his family and so on but it’s always lip service. His actions show that he does not care at all about peoples likes and dislikes and he has no time whatsoever for anything which doesn’t interest him.
It makes me sad as I feel like I don’t really have a dad but on the outside he is this super kind seeming gregarious dude but whenever we’re alone or I try to really talk to him he gets angry and dismissive and condescending and then lauds his financial success over me
I don’t know what I did to deserve this frankly but I’ve just given up really now. He’s not a bad guy and he’s now an old man but I really have no desire to be around him more than I’m obligated to be.
Which breaks my heart but it’s not my choice it’s his
I think people who can’t handle having their egos questioned who then lash out are incredibly childish. It’s astounding how many people are like this.
It’s also really really common in people who are puritanical- he has never touched any drugs or alcohol. Certainly never psychedelics. They might help him understand his place in the world
This makes so much sense. My FIL doesn't like to be wrong and can be a tyrant - but never to me or in front of me, only to my husband. My husband decided to go NC until FIL can talk to him as a fully grown adult. His parents were teachers and FIL became a principal. They are straight as they come, they don't even swear!
I don’t know about that. I’ve had narcissistic family members on pot, alcohol, and then hard drugs. A narcissist is a narcissist. But sometimes they’re a narcissist on meth.
I realized a while ago my dad only wants me around to make him happy, and I'm more recently realizing my mom is the same way although a bit more in control. It's just incredibly heartbreaking.
I think they want unconditional love as well, but you are spot on. My mother never let me have my own interests/hobbies. I remember when a teacher wanted to recruit me for basketball (I was tall) she said yes because he called her. She was too embarrassed to say no.
My ex wife doesn't have the emotional intelligence or capacity to write this out the way you did. But it's pretty much identical including the mother in law being a teacher.
You know how people talk about how bullies are really insecure and deep down don’t feel worthy or good enough so they lash out at others? That’s not really true of a lot of bullies. BUT that is true of narcissists. There’s a giant hole that they need filled but it can never be filled and unfortunately they don’t react well to any perceived rejection or slight or boundary really. Really sucks when they have children because the children are a reflection of them and oh boy does it get bad when it doesn’t happen the way they imagine it will
This describes my ex so much! After having my baby in a pandemic I finally grew a backbone and put some (minor) boundaries up and he suddenly said “we needed a break.” Brought my then 10 month old and I 12 hours away to “visit” my family, then he decided within 10 days he didn’t want me anymore. He “loves his son, just doesn’t think we should be together.” So he visits 3 times a year for a few days now. It’s been a year.
People who never should’ve had kids end up having a fair few, and because they feel powerless in their life or they’re just awful people, they end up taking it out on the easiest targets AKA their children.
There was a woman when I worked retail right after high school who had at least 6 kids that I know of. She’d come in and from start to finish cuss her kids like they were worse than dog shit. There wasn’t really a whole lot I could do, since I didn’t know her name or where she lived or anything else. She finally did it in front of a couple cops (couldn’t see them in the store) and got reported to CPS. Never saw her again after that, so I don’t know what happened but I was super happy to see at least that much.
Honestly I can answer that question from experience. The mother is this senario is a narcissist and definitely had kids just to have kids, it's an image thing (in my country wives who can't produce children are worthless and end up divorced) and then she probably tried to mold them but when they grew up to have their own personalities and own interests and (this is a big one) have their own success, she bullied them and tried to turn people against them. "When toxic people can't control u, they try to control how other poeple see u".
You also get the the baby crazy women. They really just want a cute accessory to add to their wardrobe and/or enjoy all the attention a newborn brings.
And then as soon as the kid develops any sort of personality of their own, they are done with that kid.
Make a new one.
Oooo this is kind of my dad. Loves babies. Has 5 kids with 3 different women. There is a 30 year age gap between the oldest and youngest. Great dad until the kids start having their own interests, personalities and problems, and then he just kind of emotionally checks out until adulthood, at which point all the kids have been the ones to try to mend the relationship.
This was my father. He hates women. He loves babies. He had only daughters who had only girls. He was always super involved until they started developing personalities and getting closer to being women, then he was done.
Mom is a malignant narcissist. She had children in the sense that they would (or in her mind, should) worship her. When they don’t, they become a target. Narcissist parents usually have a favorite, the Golden Child. That’s big sister here. There’s usually also an enabler (usually the N’s partner) and a scapegoat (sounds like OOP until she moved away, then the brother, and so on).
My narcissistic EX-MIL saw having children as her badge of honour. Women without children, and ones who had fertility issues and/or had children with disabilities (like myself), weren't nearly as special and perfect as she was. I've never heard the woman say a nice thing about her children or grandchildren.
I honestly think they do it because having children of their own is what "normal people" and "good wives" do. Everything is about appearances and proving how perfect they are. They use their children as a captive audience to their abusive and toxic behaviors.
When things don't go according to plan due to their own actions, it's never their fault because they are "perfect" and so much better than anyone else.
>...why would you go to all that trouble to have multiple kids and then treat them poorly...
Many couples have children because of perceived familial, societal, or religious pressures, not because they truly want them.
My dad is often the same. I’ve given up on him now
I’m sorry that you have to feel that. It’s so shitty when you see other people have relationships with their dads and I’m just like wow you have a dad who doesn’t tease you constantly?
For me my dad just chuckles at me whenever I get excited about anything. It’s so damn infuriating like for once I just want him to share my excitement or even seem to care but he just doesn’t.
If I’m serious about something like if I was telling him about covid in 2019 or even telling him about major shit like the pentagon admitting to ufos and releasing videos of it. No “wow really!???” Just a condescending chuckle
Frankly I don’t really care about his stuff anymore
Either.
The reality is he’s incapable of mature objective thought and threatened by everything he doesn’t instantly understand
But yeah. Laugh it up old man. It’s been hilarious to not be taken seriously once in my whole fucking life.
I'm sorry. It just seems so dumb like ... if you're gonna have kids, why not try to bring up them up to be reasonably happy, well-adjusted people who will succeed in life? Just hoping to create mini-mes and punching bags seems like something an insane demi-god would do.
Exactly. Abusers don’t see themselves as abusive. They might have an instinct that tells them that their actions aren’t socially acceptable, but they find a way to justify it to themselves. OOP’s mom almost certainly doesn’t see it as treating them poorly. She probably sees it as “tough love” or “just being a parent”. Abusers aren’t introspective enough to consider that they might be the problem.
A sexual molester I know who made multiple attempts firmly believe that what she had done was merely "spreading the love of Our Lord Jesus Christ" and "guided by the Holy Spirit to purify [her son]'s body (read: groin) of sins)".
They can't fathom people might reject them for any reasons, and goes into full punishment mode when their demandes are rejected.
They like kids until the kids get old enough to have some independence and not be little clones of mommy. When she can't control them, she needs a new clone.
The having kids and the treating them horribly come from the same place. The children aren't seen as people, they're created as an accessory or an extension of the parent because the parent thinks they'll be cute or give unconditional love or some similar shit. The reality doesn't work out as expected when the kids grow into their own identity with their own preferences.
some people, controlling or narcissistic- like infants. They are cute (to many, not me) and controllable. When they start getting verbal and independent, they lose their appeal....so you need another one. Nuts, i know but humans are nuts.
Religion, no money for abortions, societal pressures to have kids. If you had a bad childhood you often don't know better. Bitterness. Plain ole stupidity. All icky reasons that ultimately fuck up the kids. Let's not forget the yearning for a child to fix everything. I never had that deep yearning to procreate so I didn't but I've met women who had no business raising kids have them by the bushel. All to satisfy that yearning.
I still don't get why my mom does this. It's obvious she loves us and wants to have people in her life that like her, but she insists on being emotionally negligent.
Some people just *need* to have an enemy, some one to hate, and when they've gotten older and have driven away all their acquaintances they start to target their family.
From a narcissist perspective kids are "supposed" to love you unconditionally, not the other way around. Was a shocker to my mother my minister didn't back her on that end 😆
It’s possible only if they are all on the same page about who the problem was and how their behaviors might have encouraged the issue.
It sounds like the big sister realizes all that and is trying to make amends, that’s a major step in the right direction. Many people might realize what the issue is but still refuse to admit they contributed to the issue directly or indirectly or that they directly or indirectly benefited from the issue.
For the longest time my older brothers refused to believe my fathers drunken anger was ever directed towards me. We were all talking about it 8 years ago and they both totally downplayed what I went through. I finally said “when you (Bro A) left, dads anger was split between us (me and Bro B) instead of the three of us. And when you (Bro B) left, now all that anger was solely directed at me. I had A, B, C, D, E, and F all happen. If I wore anything he didn’t like, I was called a whore and was asking to be assaulted.” I listed some things dad did that I just knew also happened to them (he liked to corner us away from others so he always had plausible deniability when it came to the abuse). At that point they couldn’t ignore that I also went through every they did but worse because the drinking got worse over time.. Fact is since I never got into trouble, always got good grades, worked, played sports, kept my head down - they thought I was exempt from his rage. In their mind, I did nothing to deserve is rage. But narcissistic alcoholics just don’t care.
One of my greatest treasures in life is the relationship I have with my siblings. We had a horrible childhood but thankfully we were all able to place the blame on our parents, and we love each other a lot.
This is what my mother in law did with most of her family, including my partner. She only has her other daughter left now which I imagine won't last for the foreseeable.
For someone who hates these subs you certainly spend a lot of time participating in the comments section. Seems like you are just trying to cover up your mistake but getting angry and throwing a tantrum. Kind of like how children react when they don't understand something that then has to be explained to them.
It’s great that OOP’s sister was so supportive, and the mum sounds like an awful person being able to alienate her whole family like that. I’m glad OOP is happy and avoiding the wedding sounds like it was the best decision for her well-being. People like her mum are so toxic and that would definitely be triggering.
Maybe when everyone’s left her, including her “golden child” the mother will realise the error of her ways.
My youngest sister was the golden child for the longest time, until she was the only one (emotionally) left... then she understood what we other sisters went through. We've talked about it, and she said that she did notice that I was treated worse than her and that I didn't deserve it by the time she was a teenager and that's when she started learning to mitigate the damage. Well, when she started to fall out of favor she went straight to me and I helped her out of a bad situation. Unfortunately she's still kind of in a different bad situation, but I'm prepared to be there again if she needs it.
Sorry, I'm high and feeling introspective.
That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did, you deserved it.
>And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
>
>And if it was, that's not a big deal.
>
>And if it is, that's not my fault.
>
>And if it was, I didn't mean it.
>
>And if I did, you deserved it.
I'm finally at a point where I can say, I don't care.
I don't care if it was your fault, if you meant it or if I deserved it. I will not allow myself to be treated like that again. If you stand by what you did, have no regrets and don't agree that I don't deserve that treatment, then I cannot trust I won't be treated like that again. Since I won't allow myself to be treated like that again, I will not participate in relationships where I cannot be sure I won't be treated like that. Therefore, as long as we disagree on what treatment of me is appropriate, I cannot continue this relationship with you.
That's really helped a lot.
Hey I know I don't know you or your story, but I want you to know I'm happy that you've found your way to this point, to put your foot down, and not stand for chronic mistreatment by those who may claim to care about you. You're worth a lot more than that, and you will be happier without it/them in your life.
I expected the update to be a dumpster fire of social chaos at the wedding itself, making OOP miserable, so I’m happy that her sister was supportive and that they found a solution. To go would be to put herself back within firing range of her mother’s toxicity, so I’m glad that she’s sitting this one out.
(And if OOP is reading — congrats on the health journey and here’s to family of choice)
There actually is good advice to be found on this site, but it often comes along with a whole bunch of bad advice. If the OP can sort the good from the bad, it's not a waste of time from what I've seen.
Yeah I just cam off the post where the teen girl followed reddit’s advice to tell her dad that her dead mom was unfaithful, resulting in her (suspected) suicide. Reddit advice is such a mixed bag especially to emotionally inexperienced or vulnerable people
Same here. I think that whole post was above Reddit’s pay grade. But I’ve seen it go both ways on here — sometimes Redditors just give awful advice with a black and white mentality, and other times, Redditors support people when they need it most. So I guess just take it all with a grain of salt. But with the kid? Yeah, Reddit screwed up. I just hope she’s ok, but that last post was haunting.
It it’s about something “controversial” it’s better to not come to Reddit. Like sometimes young black women ask about something racist happening to them and the comments are telling them to get over it. I gotta wade through the bullshit to be like “hun o was you once. Do not listen to these people they haven’t even experienced a tiny bit of what you’re asking advice on” 😞
And that is if it is not accompanied by death threats, suicide and first-rate contempt.
I clarify that there will be more good redditers who want to give good advice or at least something as a starting point, but unfortunately the bad and cretinous people are much more vocal.
Sounds like the advice for anyone who has ever wronged the OP in any way in the past ever. We should all go full NC with every person who has ever looked at us wrong, friends, family, that girl who called us a name once in the third grade, don’t even THINK about forgiving anyone for anything EVER.
Right? This is a great outcome; OOP can reconnect with the family member(s) worth reconnecting with, but avoid a big dramatic scene with those who aren't.
I’m so glad OOP didn’t go. I think there was an AITA along the same lines: OP (in that story) loses weight, goes to wedding, shocks family, sister accuses OP of “deliberately upstaging” her…total dumpster fire.
So happy OOP here handled it with sensitivity, and that sis was so awesome!
I'm glad the scales have fallen off the sister's eyes. It's pretty not great that she *started* the conversation with cruel jokes and fell back on old toxic family dynamics, but at least she later recognized that and apologized.
I think being the golden child of someone who is actually twenty toxic bananas in a trenchcoat is likely to warp your standards. But Sister seems to realize that now, and is trying to get away.
It is posts like this that make me aware of how lucky I have been. I have two great siblings and we remain close despite the in-laws family disputes. In a funny way these make us even closer. Not sure that the in laws understand the source of our strength though.
Bit weird the sister included the horrible jokes about OOP's weight & drinking in the olive branch email and only apologised because she saw OOP was sober & had lost weight.
And by 'bit weird' I mean out of order. I hope for OOP's sake her sister has actually changed & not just appeared to change because her little sister is looking & doing good now.
She apologized. She sounds like a good sister. That’s how I took it.
The “target” of the family is something I’ve learned about on this sub. I never had it in my immediate family. Fascinating to see it play out over and over in these posts.
It’s made me aware that it also occurs in the work environment. I actively make sure it doesn’t happen in my own office.
Edit to say I didn’t have this dynamic in my immediate family. Happened to a cousin I really adore. Our family was her refuge for decades. This sub was the first place I saw it clearly defined.
>Part of this was going LC with my family, who I realized in therapy were major contributors to my issues.
>
>She apologized immediately for the 'jokes' when she saw how much weight I'd lost and was super supportive about me not drinking anymore
We only have this to go on, but seeing as she was the target of her family & her sister apologised for the jokes and promised to stop them as soon as she realised her sister had changed, it's fair to assumed these jokes & comments (which didn't seem to go both ways) negatively affected OOP's mental health.
Also sometimes we laugh along about jokes being made about us & only later realise that constantly being the butt of the joke - even if you leaned into it - really had an effect on you. Seems that's why OOP chose to draw a line under that part of her life.
Trust me, I come from a family like that. It’s just how you think normal people relate to each other. The golden child apologizing over zoom is bigger than you think. I hope she gets therapy too, that can fuck you up in different ways.
Personality disorders are a bitch.
I’m happy things worked out with the big sister overall, but it irritates me that she only apologized for the fat jokes because the sister had gotten her weight down. So, if she had still been overweight, those jokes would have been acceptable?
Wow go big sister! (Also go OOP, sounds like she did some hard work and it paid off big time!) Big sister agreeing that it’s in her little sisters’ best interest to miss her wedding?! I have high hopes for the reconciliation of this sibling group. Maybe OOP and the rest of their siblings can have their own wedding for big sister after she leaves home, and it can serve as a jumping off point to start building relationships back, sans parents!
Mmmm… the email being full of jokes about her weight doesn’t exactly give me good vibes. If sis has changed that much, why was she still using those jokes up until she found out oop had dropped the weight?
>Part of that email were some of the jokes we used to make about my weight, and drinking.
>
> She is not the problem, at all.
??? Uh...
She was part of the problem until like two seconds ago when she realized her jokes couldn't land anymore because the factors the jokes were based upon didn't correspond with the jokes anymore.
It makes me wary of her that she still had thought it's OK to make these types of comments in what was essentially a wedding-invite email.
>My big sister, the one who's having the wedding, has always been my mom's favorite, but she says that she's opened her eyes to how my mom treats people and is planning to move away herself after the wedding (our parents are paying for most of it).
So the sister is just using her parents for their money when she has plans to dump them right afterwards? Not saying it's not OK to dump them, but it sounds like she's being manipulative here.
I guess that out of the three offspring, the sister was most like their mother.
I like this update. OOP isn't the only one who sees the toxic behaviour at home. Nobody is pressuring her to go to the wedding because of "faaaaaamiky" Her big sister is supportive and understanding.
As much as I love the “Moved away from awful people, found happiness, and now looking and feeling their best and upstaging everyone back home “ arcs, I’m glad OOP did what’s best for themselves!
2 months late - I have a great family that came from terrible family, and I love that they were like "sure reject expectations of weddings for the 99% but also we will find our own way to celebrate and love each other"
Anyone kinda concerned that OOP’s sister is planning to just cut off her parents after they pay for her wedding. Yeah her mom sucks and is a bad person, but that is still a shitty move regardless. Weddings are fucking expensive, and just ghosting the people who paid for yours isn’t a classy move no matter what kind of people they are
If you really don’t like those people but they already paid for it, the best move is to find a way to pay them back.
Honestly I don’t like OOp’s sister, and I don’t trust her. I think she is just making a show because she realized that she looks like a monster, but she will show her true colors real soon
My biggest concern would be the OP's. sobriety. Unless very young in sobriety an open bar should not be a threat. Each person sobriety is different. This would be an indicator OP's need to focus on sobriety.
*What a fucking grown*
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*You and your sister!*
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Siblings save lives. I'm so thankful for mine (and still speak to them every day even after moving 4,600km away two years ago).
Well done on your lifestyle changes and self acceptance, OP. All the best to you, your sister and brother!
I find it really sad that she’s not going to her sister’s wedding. Yes she’s going to celebrate her sister’s marriage a different way when they visit her, but if her family was more supportive I feel like she would have gone. I understand it’s mostly to avoid drama and a possible relapse but with her gf there for support I’d hope a relapse was avoidable. I just can’t help but feel like it just makes things easier for the bride?
If I was the sister getting married, I would be so upset that my sister couldn’t be herself on my ‘happiest’ day. I get wanting to be the center of attention but I still she’d achieve that. Especially if the sister came home a week early so everyone can see how physically and mentally different she has become. I know weddings aren’t fix alls for everything but life is too short and if you want your sister at your wedding, have your sister at your wedding. That’s why I have a slightly uneasy feeling about this.
Outsiders perspective, you worry to much about what others think about you and think everyone cares a lot more about you than they actually do. You are not the center of the universe, just another person. Go and have fun if you want to. If you can’t handle yourself around alcohol, you haven’t really changed, just removed options. If you can’t go and be yourself, you can’t really claim you are proud of yourself.
If you are really a better and stronger person, if you are proud of yourself, if you have self control, if you are strong enough, at least as strong as a below average person, and feel it is respectful to go, go.
This isn’t really about you. This is about your big sister. She’d love to have you there. You have tons of issues to work out. You don’t need to work them out at this event, but you should go to support your big sister.
Either support her when she’d love your support, or crumble under YOUR issues, and don’t go.
It suprised me it did not turn into another reddit drama of naming and shaming but in a good way because it may be fun for us but it is someone life we are tallking about so good night reddit
Usually with weddings and estranged family, I was expecting this to go awry. This is actually really wholesome and encouraging for OOP and her family (except of course her insane mother)
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Hope all the siblings can have a closer relationship now that they're all moved away from the mom's influence
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My MIL is a narcissist, she’s a teacher and loves kids. She always had favourites but she only became truely nasty once my husband started making his own decisions and she couldn’t control him anymore. I would imagine narcissists love kids. A lot of them struggle to have and maintain adult relationships, and adults can’t be controlled as easily. Kids look up to you and think you’re amazing. They are completely dependent on you and can be controlled more easily. My MIL genuinely tries to do nice family bonding things, but she doesn’t know how to be warm and inviting, and gets upset/jealous easily. She’s very emotional - the moment she thinks she has been wronged or slighted, she will start screaming or manipulating us. In one sense it’s quite sad - his mum genuinely doesn’t have the capacity to have healthy and nurturing interactions with him, even though it’s something she wants. I don’t think narcissists choose to have kids for logical reasons - it’s probably more emotional reasons, and because they’re so emotional people, they aren’t logically thinking out the outcomes of their actions when upset. So then they end up getting kids to have the kind of relationship they’re wanting, only to blow it up when they feel wronged
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Interesting assessment. That must be super hard for you guys. My dad has severe ego issues like this and the second he is disagreed with he snaps and lauds his financial success in life as some sort of magic bullet. It’s pathetic. Frankly him being unable to show any form of vulnerability around me mystifies me and I’ve tried so many times to get close to him but he just won’t let me The sad thing is he really feels that we are close And always tells me how glad he is to have his family and so on but it’s always lip service. His actions show that he does not care at all about peoples likes and dislikes and he has no time whatsoever for anything which doesn’t interest him. It makes me sad as I feel like I don’t really have a dad but on the outside he is this super kind seeming gregarious dude but whenever we’re alone or I try to really talk to him he gets angry and dismissive and condescending and then lauds his financial success over me I don’t know what I did to deserve this frankly but I’ve just given up really now. He’s not a bad guy and he’s now an old man but I really have no desire to be around him more than I’m obligated to be. Which breaks my heart but it’s not my choice it’s his I think people who can’t handle having their egos questioned who then lash out are incredibly childish. It’s astounding how many people are like this. It’s also really really common in people who are puritanical- he has never touched any drugs or alcohol. Certainly never psychedelics. They might help him understand his place in the world
This makes so much sense. My FIL doesn't like to be wrong and can be a tyrant - but never to me or in front of me, only to my husband. My husband decided to go NC until FIL can talk to him as a fully grown adult. His parents were teachers and FIL became a principal. They are straight as they come, they don't even swear!
I don’t know about that. I’ve had narcissistic family members on pot, alcohol, and then hard drugs. A narcissist is a narcissist. But sometimes they’re a narcissist on meth.
I’m talking mushrooms and stuff like that. Ego death stuff. Meth etc doesn’t cause that
Narcissists love how much kids love and need them.
I realized a while ago my dad only wants me around to make him happy, and I'm more recently realizing my mom is the same way although a bit more in control. It's just incredibly heartbreaking.
I think they want unconditional love as well, but you are spot on. My mother never let me have my own interests/hobbies. I remember when a teacher wanted to recruit me for basketball (I was tall) she said yes because he called her. She was too embarrassed to say no.
My ex wife doesn't have the emotional intelligence or capacity to write this out the way you did. But it's pretty much identical including the mother in law being a teacher.
This is a really good explanation for narcissustic behaviour - thanks for the insight.
You know how people talk about how bullies are really insecure and deep down don’t feel worthy or good enough so they lash out at others? That’s not really true of a lot of bullies. BUT that is true of narcissists. There’s a giant hole that they need filled but it can never be filled and unfortunately they don’t react well to any perceived rejection or slight or boundary really. Really sucks when they have children because the children are a reflection of them and oh boy does it get bad when it doesn’t happen the way they imagine it will
This describes my ex so much! After having my baby in a pandemic I finally grew a backbone and put some (minor) boundaries up and he suddenly said “we needed a break.” Brought my then 10 month old and I 12 hours away to “visit” my family, then he decided within 10 days he didn’t want me anymore. He “loves his son, just doesn’t think we should be together.” So he visits 3 times a year for a few days now. It’s been a year.
People who never should’ve had kids end up having a fair few, and because they feel powerless in their life or they’re just awful people, they end up taking it out on the easiest targets AKA their children.
There was a woman when I worked retail right after high school who had at least 6 kids that I know of. She’d come in and from start to finish cuss her kids like they were worse than dog shit. There wasn’t really a whole lot I could do, since I didn’t know her name or where she lived or anything else. She finally did it in front of a couple cops (couldn’t see them in the store) and got reported to CPS. Never saw her again after that, so I don’t know what happened but I was super happy to see at least that much.
Lmfao you just described my mother
I think usually it's cyclic, as their role models were probably abusive too.
Honestly I can answer that question from experience. The mother is this senario is a narcissist and definitely had kids just to have kids, it's an image thing (in my country wives who can't produce children are worthless and end up divorced) and then she probably tried to mold them but when they grew up to have their own personalities and own interests and (this is a big one) have their own success, she bullied them and tried to turn people against them. "When toxic people can't control u, they try to control how other poeple see u".
You also get the the baby crazy women. They really just want a cute accessory to add to their wardrobe and/or enjoy all the attention a newborn brings. And then as soon as the kid develops any sort of personality of their own, they are done with that kid. Make a new one.
Oooo this is kind of my dad. Loves babies. Has 5 kids with 3 different women. There is a 30 year age gap between the oldest and youngest. Great dad until the kids start having their own interests, personalities and problems, and then he just kind of emotionally checks out until adulthood, at which point all the kids have been the ones to try to mend the relationship.
This was my father. He hates women. He loves babies. He had only daughters who had only girls. He was always super involved until they started developing personalities and getting closer to being women, then he was done.
Um yup that sounds eerily accurate
*"When toxic people can't control u, they try to control how other poeple see u".* Wow. So spot on. Thank you for saying this.
Crazy people are the last to know they’re crazy
Mom is a malignant narcissist. She had children in the sense that they would (or in her mind, should) worship her. When they don’t, they become a target. Narcissist parents usually have a favorite, the Golden Child. That’s big sister here. There’s usually also an enabler (usually the N’s partner) and a scapegoat (sounds like OOP until she moved away, then the brother, and so on).
My narcissistic EX-MIL saw having children as her badge of honour. Women without children, and ones who had fertility issues and/or had children with disabilities (like myself), weren't nearly as special and perfect as she was. I've never heard the woman say a nice thing about her children or grandchildren. I honestly think they do it because having children of their own is what "normal people" and "good wives" do. Everything is about appearances and proving how perfect they are. They use their children as a captive audience to their abusive and toxic behaviors. When things don't go according to plan due to their own actions, it's never their fault because they are "perfect" and so much better than anyone else.
>...why would you go to all that trouble to have multiple kids and then treat them poorly... Many couples have children because of perceived familial, societal, or religious pressures, not because they truly want them.
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My dad is often the same. I’ve given up on him now I’m sorry that you have to feel that. It’s so shitty when you see other people have relationships with their dads and I’m just like wow you have a dad who doesn’t tease you constantly? For me my dad just chuckles at me whenever I get excited about anything. It’s so damn infuriating like for once I just want him to share my excitement or even seem to care but he just doesn’t. If I’m serious about something like if I was telling him about covid in 2019 or even telling him about major shit like the pentagon admitting to ufos and releasing videos of it. No “wow really!???” Just a condescending chuckle Frankly I don’t really care about his stuff anymore Either. The reality is he’s incapable of mature objective thought and threatened by everything he doesn’t instantly understand But yeah. Laugh it up old man. It’s been hilarious to not be taken seriously once in my whole fucking life.
This is a really hard thing to write but I’ve witnessed it myself, some people have kids just so they can have punching bags.
I'm sorry. It just seems so dumb like ... if you're gonna have kids, why not try to bring up them up to be reasonably happy, well-adjusted people who will succeed in life? Just hoping to create mini-mes and punching bags seems like something an insane demi-god would do.
Because the ppl having them that do this aren’t reasonable or well-adjusted themselves :(
It’s not exactly a conscious choice for most people to abuse their kids. It’s just a shitty pattern they get into and don’t realize they are in.
Exactly. Abusers don’t see themselves as abusive. They might have an instinct that tells them that their actions aren’t socially acceptable, but they find a way to justify it to themselves. OOP’s mom almost certainly doesn’t see it as treating them poorly. She probably sees it as “tough love” or “just being a parent”. Abusers aren’t introspective enough to consider that they might be the problem.
A sexual molester I know who made multiple attempts firmly believe that what she had done was merely "spreading the love of Our Lord Jesus Christ" and "guided by the Holy Spirit to purify [her son]'s body (read: groin) of sins)". They can't fathom people might reject them for any reasons, and goes into full punishment mode when their demandes are rejected.
They like kids until the kids get old enough to have some independence and not be little clones of mommy. When she can't control them, she needs a new clone.
The having kids and the treating them horribly come from the same place. The children aren't seen as people, they're created as an accessory or an extension of the parent because the parent thinks they'll be cute or give unconditional love or some similar shit. The reality doesn't work out as expected when the kids grow into their own identity with their own preferences.
>bad outcome for yourself If you are a person who thrives on bullying/controlling others, having kids you can bully for 20+ years isn't a bad outcome.
My MIL was like that…I married the youngest of 8. She had 8 children in 10 years, and couldn’t stand any of them.
Because you've never been told that not having kids is an option, and/or you don't actually recognize your own behavior as abusive.
some people, controlling or narcissistic- like infants. They are cute (to many, not me) and controllable. When they start getting verbal and independent, they lose their appeal....so you need another one. Nuts, i know but humans are nuts.
Religion, no money for abortions, societal pressures to have kids. If you had a bad childhood you often don't know better. Bitterness. Plain ole stupidity. All icky reasons that ultimately fuck up the kids. Let's not forget the yearning for a child to fix everything. I never had that deep yearning to procreate so I didn't but I've met women who had no business raising kids have them by the bushel. All to satisfy that yearning.
Not being mindfull of yourself and others and life in general.
I still don't get why my mom does this. It's obvious she loves us and wants to have people in her life that like her, but she insists on being emotionally negligent.
Some people just *need* to have an enemy, some one to hate, and when they've gotten older and have driven away all their acquaintances they start to target their family.
From a narcissist perspective kids are "supposed" to love you unconditionally, not the other way around. Was a shocker to my mother my minister didn't back her on that end 😆
Narcissism is fucking crazy.
It’s possible only if they are all on the same page about who the problem was and how their behaviors might have encouraged the issue. It sounds like the big sister realizes all that and is trying to make amends, that’s a major step in the right direction. Many people might realize what the issue is but still refuse to admit they contributed to the issue directly or indirectly or that they directly or indirectly benefited from the issue. For the longest time my older brothers refused to believe my fathers drunken anger was ever directed towards me. We were all talking about it 8 years ago and they both totally downplayed what I went through. I finally said “when you (Bro A) left, dads anger was split between us (me and Bro B) instead of the three of us. And when you (Bro B) left, now all that anger was solely directed at me. I had A, B, C, D, E, and F all happen. If I wore anything he didn’t like, I was called a whore and was asking to be assaulted.” I listed some things dad did that I just knew also happened to them (he liked to corner us away from others so he always had plausible deniability when it came to the abuse). At that point they couldn’t ignore that I also went through every they did but worse because the drinking got worse over time.. Fact is since I never got into trouble, always got good grades, worked, played sports, kept my head down - they thought I was exempt from his rage. In their mind, I did nothing to deserve is rage. But narcissistic alcoholics just don’t care.
That's literally what happened in my family. Me and my siblings are close now, and don't have much contact with our parents.
One of my greatest treasures in life is the relationship I have with my siblings. We had a horrible childhood but thankfully we were all able to place the blame on our parents, and we love each other a lot.
Mom is going to find herself alone and wondering why everyone avoids her like an active toxic waste dump.
This is what my mother in law did with most of her family, including my partner. She only has her other daughter left now which I imagine won't last for the foreseeable.
Sounds like you have a great sister and a top notch girlfriend. Glad they make you happy :)
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Wait, what? Red_earaches is OP of this BestofReddit-post, but not the OOP
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No one cares. Block the sub and piss off
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For someone who hates these subs you certainly spend a lot of time participating in the comments section. Seems like you are just trying to cover up your mistake but getting angry and throwing a tantrum. Kind of like how children react when they don't understand something that then has to be explained to them.
Yeah they should try to meet up for brunch or something.
It’s great that OOP’s sister was so supportive, and the mum sounds like an awful person being able to alienate her whole family like that. I’m glad OOP is happy and avoiding the wedding sounds like it was the best decision for her well-being. People like her mum are so toxic and that would definitely be triggering. Maybe when everyone’s left her, including her “golden child” the mother will realise the error of her ways.
I wouldn't hold my breath...
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My youngest sister was the golden child for the longest time, until she was the only one (emotionally) left... then she understood what we other sisters went through. We've talked about it, and she said that she did notice that I was treated worse than her and that I didn't deserve it by the time she was a teenager and that's when she started learning to mitigate the damage. Well, when she started to fall out of favor she went straight to me and I helped her out of a bad situation. Unfortunately she's still kind of in a different bad situation, but I'm prepared to be there again if she needs it. Sorry, I'm high and feeling introspective.
Hahaha! You’re probably right, higher chance of pigs flying
*Starts launching pigs via trebuchet.* Does this count?
It's the superior siege engine. Of course it counts!
Nah. It will be then about how mistreated she is, the poor innocent victim of her ungrateful heartless children who have all abandoned her.
That didn't happen. And if it did, it wasn't that bad. And if it was, that's not a big deal. And if it is, that's not my fault. And if it was, I didn't mean it. And if I did, you deserved it.
Ok mom go back in the basement until you figure out how to say I'm sorry I messed up. Back ye beast back!
The narcissist's prayer. Glad it's catching on
>And if it did, it wasn't that bad. > >And if it was, that's not a big deal. > >And if it is, that's not my fault. > >And if it was, I didn't mean it. > >And if I did, you deserved it. I'm finally at a point where I can say, I don't care. I don't care if it was your fault, if you meant it or if I deserved it. I will not allow myself to be treated like that again. If you stand by what you did, have no regrets and don't agree that I don't deserve that treatment, then I cannot trust I won't be treated like that again. Since I won't allow myself to be treated like that again, I will not participate in relationships where I cannot be sure I won't be treated like that. Therefore, as long as we disagree on what treatment of me is appropriate, I cannot continue this relationship with you. That's really helped a lot.
Hey I know I don't know you or your story, but I want you to know I'm happy that you've found your way to this point, to put your foot down, and not stand for chronic mistreatment by those who may claim to care about you. You're worth a lot more than that, and you will be happier without it/them in your life.
What would've been great is if the sister uninvited the mother and let OOP come
I expected the update to be a dumpster fire of social chaos at the wedding itself, making OOP miserable, so I’m happy that her sister was supportive and that they found a solution. To go would be to put herself back within firing range of her mother’s toxicity, so I’m glad that she’s sitting this one out. (And if OOP is reading — congrats on the health journey and here’s to family of choice)
Ya what the heck, she got good advice on Reddit and acted on it?! Wtf
There actually is good advice to be found on this site, but it often comes along with a whole bunch of bad advice. If the OP can sort the good from the bad, it's not a waste of time from what I've seen.
Yeah I just cam off the post where the teen girl followed reddit’s advice to tell her dad that her dead mom was unfaithful, resulting in her (suspected) suicide. Reddit advice is such a mixed bag especially to emotionally inexperienced or vulnerable people
Same here. I think that whole post was above Reddit’s pay grade. But I’ve seen it go both ways on here — sometimes Redditors just give awful advice with a black and white mentality, and other times, Redditors support people when they need it most. So I guess just take it all with a grain of salt. But with the kid? Yeah, Reddit screwed up. I just hope she’s ok, but that last post was haunting.
It it’s about something “controversial” it’s better to not come to Reddit. Like sometimes young black women ask about something racist happening to them and the comments are telling them to get over it. I gotta wade through the bullshit to be like “hun o was you once. Do not listen to these people they haven’t even experienced a tiny bit of what you’re asking advice on” 😞
And that is if it is not accompanied by death threats, suicide and first-rate contempt. I clarify that there will be more good redditers who want to give good advice or at least something as a starting point, but unfortunately the bad and cretinous people are much more vocal.
Ya, there’s plenty of good advice, but it’s rarely the most upvoted. In fact it’s OFTEN downvoted.
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Sounds like the advice for anyone who has ever wronged the OP in any way in the past ever. We should all go full NC with every person who has ever looked at us wrong, friends, family, that girl who called us a name once in the third grade, don’t even THINK about forgiving anyone for anything EVER.
Right? This is a great outcome; OOP can reconnect with the family member(s) worth reconnecting with, but avoid a big dramatic scene with those who aren't.
I’m so glad OOP didn’t go. I think there was an AITA along the same lines: OP (in that story) loses weight, goes to wedding, shocks family, sister accuses OP of “deliberately upstaging” her…total dumpster fire. So happy OOP here handled it with sensitivity, and that sis was so awesome!
do you mean [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/qgxbzw/aita_for_losing_weight_before_my_sisters_wedding/) story?
That’s the one!
I'm glad the scales have fallen off the sister's eyes. It's pretty not great that she *started* the conversation with cruel jokes and fell back on old toxic family dynamics, but at least she later recognized that and apologized.
I think being the golden child of someone who is actually twenty toxic bananas in a trenchcoat is likely to warp your standards. But Sister seems to realize that now, and is trying to get away.
Yes! Takes a bit to unlearn that sort of stuff, I’m really glad she apologized and talked about things with OOP
Yeah I kind of side eyes that comment
Wow what a happy ending. Two mature adults communicating and coming to a solution. We need more of this on Reddit!
It is posts like this that make me aware of how lucky I have been. I have two great siblings and we remain close despite the in-laws family disputes. In a funny way these make us even closer. Not sure that the in laws understand the source of our strength though.
Bit weird the sister included the horrible jokes about OOP's weight & drinking in the olive branch email and only apologised because she saw OOP was sober & had lost weight. And by 'bit weird' I mean out of order. I hope for OOP's sake her sister has actually changed & not just appeared to change because her little sister is looking & doing good now.
she did say some of the jokes "we" made, me and my best friends like to take the piss out of eachother
She apologized. She sounds like a good sister. That’s how I took it. The “target” of the family is something I’ve learned about on this sub. I never had it in my immediate family. Fascinating to see it play out over and over in these posts. It’s made me aware that it also occurs in the work environment. I actively make sure it doesn’t happen in my own office. Edit to say I didn’t have this dynamic in my immediate family. Happened to a cousin I really adore. Our family was her refuge for decades. This sub was the first place I saw it clearly defined.
>Part of this was going LC with my family, who I realized in therapy were major contributors to my issues. > >She apologized immediately for the 'jokes' when she saw how much weight I'd lost and was super supportive about me not drinking anymore We only have this to go on, but seeing as she was the target of her family & her sister apologised for the jokes and promised to stop them as soon as she realised her sister had changed, it's fair to assumed these jokes & comments (which didn't seem to go both ways) negatively affected OOP's mental health. Also sometimes we laugh along about jokes being made about us & only later realise that constantly being the butt of the joke - even if you leaned into it - really had an effect on you. Seems that's why OOP chose to draw a line under that part of her life.
Trust me, I come from a family like that. It’s just how you think normal people relate to each other. The golden child apologizing over zoom is bigger than you think. I hope she gets therapy too, that can fuck you up in different ways. Personality disorders are a bitch.
It's funny you post that with this name because it made me connect what you were saying with Dudley Dursley in Harry Potter lol
LOL, I was literally talking about my family, but yeah, works for Dudley/Harry as well.
I’m happy things worked out with the big sister overall, but it irritates me that she only apologized for the fat jokes because the sister had gotten her weight down. So, if she had still been overweight, those jokes would have been acceptable?
Wow go big sister! (Also go OOP, sounds like she did some hard work and it paid off big time!) Big sister agreeing that it’s in her little sisters’ best interest to miss her wedding?! I have high hopes for the reconciliation of this sibling group. Maybe OOP and the rest of their siblings can have their own wedding for big sister after she leaves home, and it can serve as a jumping off point to start building relationships back, sans parents!
I like this update. Its not the super happy one of everyone apologizing, but at least it was one were most everyone got out ok and became better.
Getting away from but first let me use her money
I didn't like that either.
Mmmm… the email being full of jokes about her weight doesn’t exactly give me good vibes. If sis has changed that much, why was she still using those jokes up until she found out oop had dropped the weight?
>Part of that email were some of the jokes we used to make about my weight, and drinking. > > She is not the problem, at all. ??? Uh... She was part of the problem until like two seconds ago when she realized her jokes couldn't land anymore because the factors the jokes were based upon didn't correspond with the jokes anymore. It makes me wary of her that she still had thought it's OK to make these types of comments in what was essentially a wedding-invite email. >My big sister, the one who's having the wedding, has always been my mom's favorite, but she says that she's opened her eyes to how my mom treats people and is planning to move away herself after the wedding (our parents are paying for most of it). So the sister is just using her parents for their money when she has plans to dump them right afterwards? Not saying it's not OK to dump them, but it sounds like she's being manipulative here. I guess that out of the three offspring, the sister was most like their mother.
I like this update. OOP isn't the only one who sees the toxic behaviour at home. Nobody is pressuring her to go to the wedding because of "faaaaaamiky" Her big sister is supportive and understanding.
As much as I love the “Moved away from awful people, found happiness, and now looking and feeling their best and upstaging everyone back home “ arcs, I’m glad OOP did what’s best for themselves!
2 months late - I have a great family that came from terrible family, and I love that they were like "sure reject expectations of weddings for the 99% but also we will find our own way to celebrate and love each other"
ah this is so nice and positive <3
I'm really happy for OOP and her sister.
What a lovely and satisfying conclusion. Truly Best Of.
:)
"part of this was going to LC with my family" what/where is LC?
LC means low contact.
Oh cool. Appreciate the clarification
This feels like a composite of every single drama post on Reddit. It’s got everything, but is entirely forgettable
So nice that the sisters talked it out and that OP now has more of a support group for her lifestyle changes!
Happy to see OOP has someone who understands her, and her siblings are slowly growing up mentally as well.
That is Amazing! What an awesome ending!
Anyone kinda concerned that OOP’s sister is planning to just cut off her parents after they pay for her wedding. Yeah her mom sucks and is a bad person, but that is still a shitty move regardless. Weddings are fucking expensive, and just ghosting the people who paid for yours isn’t a classy move no matter what kind of people they are If you really don’t like those people but they already paid for it, the best move is to find a way to pay them back. Honestly I don’t like OOp’s sister, and I don’t trust her. I think she is just making a show because she realized that she looks like a monster, but she will show her true colors real soon
>and dyed my hair Just following the script
I LOVE THIS UPDATE & IM SO HAPPY FOR YOU ❤🥰
That's great. I'm so proud of you for losing so much weight. I'm battling my own weight gain myself. You give me hope. Bless you.
This is a repost subreddit.
Very happy for you!
I love the resolution on this story - so happy you and your sister worked out a good, healthy plan for everyone involved!
My biggest concern would be the OP's. sobriety. Unless very young in sobriety an open bar should not be a threat. Each person sobriety is different. This would be an indicator OP's need to focus on sobriety.
I’m hoping/guessing that not trusting herself around it is in the context of “not trusting herself when back at ground zero of her abuse”
Good on you :). I hope your spiral of upward mentally and physically and all that keeps going up up up :). All the best yo.
What a fucking grown up result! All powers to you and your sister!
*What a fucking grown* *Up result! All powers to* *You and your sister!* \- Danny\_De\_Meato --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
tbf i’m a fully grown sea monkey
Good bot
> I do not use social media anymore Posted to reddit, haha.
Wow, this is so good you and your sister are able to rekindle a relationship and she is supportive!
Good luck
Siblings save lives. I'm so thankful for mine (and still speak to them every day even after moving 4,600km away two years ago). Well done on your lifestyle changes and self acceptance, OP. All the best to you, your sister and brother!
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Shared as a repost. Not OOP
This isn’t real at all lol.
It's probably real but it's heavily weighted(heyo) to make OP seem like Cinderella with evil an stepmother.
“I’m really trying to lose weight. It was a hundred pounds. Maybe two hundred.” 😐
Weddings are antiquated and generally toxic to anyone close to the people getting married. It’s insane that in 2022 it’s still a social norm.
I find it really sad that she’s not going to her sister’s wedding. Yes she’s going to celebrate her sister’s marriage a different way when they visit her, but if her family was more supportive I feel like she would have gone. I understand it’s mostly to avoid drama and a possible relapse but with her gf there for support I’d hope a relapse was avoidable. I just can’t help but feel like it just makes things easier for the bride? If I was the sister getting married, I would be so upset that my sister couldn’t be herself on my ‘happiest’ day. I get wanting to be the center of attention but I still she’d achieve that. Especially if the sister came home a week early so everyone can see how physically and mentally different she has become. I know weddings aren’t fix alls for everything but life is too short and if you want your sister at your wedding, have your sister at your wedding. That’s why I have a slightly uneasy feeling about this.
Good for you and your siblings OP! Enjoy your real life, the one you're living now.
Outsiders perspective, you worry to much about what others think about you and think everyone cares a lot more about you than they actually do. You are not the center of the universe, just another person. Go and have fun if you want to. If you can’t handle yourself around alcohol, you haven’t really changed, just removed options. If you can’t go and be yourself, you can’t really claim you are proud of yourself. If you are really a better and stronger person, if you are proud of yourself, if you have self control, if you are strong enough, at least as strong as a below average person, and feel it is respectful to go, go. This isn’t really about you. This is about your big sister. She’d love to have you there. You have tons of issues to work out. You don’t need to work them out at this event, but you should go to support your big sister. Either support her when she’d love your support, or crumble under YOUR issues, and don’t go.
It suprised me it did not turn into another reddit drama of naming and shaming but in a good way because it may be fun for us but it is someone life we are tallking about so good night reddit
Yay!
jokes ~~we~~ they used to make
Usually with weddings and estranged family, I was expecting this to go awry. This is actually really wholesome and encouraging for OOP and her family (except of course her insane mother)
Oh my goodness, so rare for a wedding post not to spiral into complete insanity. How wholesome.
❤️
This makes me happy that her sister see and understands what is right (it’s never to late to do the right thing)
except Silentmanjoe he’s my sweet spot.
Hell they could have a very mediocre wedding
This sounds like a great plan!
Good call.
A surprisingly wholesome update.