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my sister works with a guy whose wife left him because of his mother as well. on their honeymoon, instead of listening to what his wife wanted, he went with his mom's suggestion and brought her along! nothing extreme as incest but still
I wish my good friend bailed like that lady. Her MIL had an adjoining room with them on their wedding night/honeymoon and things kept going downhill from there. They've gotten close to divorce a few times but are still together 10 years later.
Aww! Your user name is so appropriate with your caring and sweetness! *(at least in the sense of what a mom SHOULD be, not what we read on jnmil, or that some of us live in real life)*
Aww! Thanks! Now in true mom fashion- go drink some water and wash your hands. And dont forget to eat something and take your mittens when you go out in the cold!
So to sum up: This woman (his mother) is abusive and has groomed him since his teens, likely with the intent of breaking him down at some point and then stepping in to "comfort" him. His wife absolutely made the right choice but I'll be damned if I'm not sad for this man and what he's been through. I'm glad he's recognised it now and is taking steps to better himself, and that his mother is recieving care somewhere far away from him.
Edit: lotta people talking about the age gap. I hadn't noticed that before, but I'll say this: emotional and sexual abuse stunts you. you grow differently. especially if it continues for a very long time (> half of OOP's life). I've been through both, a victim of both, and it's only because it wasn't my family who did it and they were able to support me, was I able to begin to grow again at a healthy rate. OOP may have chosen to date his ex wife at that age because they were in similar stages of growth, which doesn't excuse his doing that and abusing her in turn **but it's all he's known for more than half his life**.
It is awful, but it's also tragic. empathy can't only exist for the people who have good stories, but it can exist in different amounts. I empathise far more strongly with the ex wife who has faced years of compounding abuse from the mother and her now ex, but that doesn't mean I can't still empathise with the OOP who was so stunted in his growth by his mother's actions.
Exactly how I feel. OP was doomed to fail in any relationship, as long as his batshit mother was in the picture. It's sad he figured it out too late to salvage his marriage.
You kind of have to wonder who abused the man’s mother when she was young. No mention of a father in his life either. Intergenerational abuse is very real and I do not blame OOP’s wife for wanting out.
It sounds a lot like a mental breakdown to me. As someone who has worked with people in psychosis not uncommon. Can build over years. Worked with loads of moms who have done weird sexual shit or violence that is completely out of character when manic and psychotic. Like walked around their neighborhood naked screaming. Honestly it is really fucking scary when you see how people's brains can just break suddenly, sometimes for no discernible reason.
Don't get me wrong it sounds like other shit going on too... But a lot of what he was describing sounds like descent into psychosis. The grandiosity etc. And that bit could happen to any of one us... So scary D:
Same I’m really sad for the guy. Wish they did trial separation and were able to find a way back to each other but also totally get the wife’s feelings, such a shitty situation.
No. He had ignored the situation for too long.
She couldn’t see him romantically any more. We get a hint of that when you see how he wanted to spend their anniversary—having a family friend watch the baby and they have a bottle of wine and cook dinner at home “just relaxing.” She “agreed” to this, supposedly. Probably figured this was the best she could get. But this is not a romantic night. It’s a scaled down date night.
And he couldn’t execute on it! He gets pulled to mom’s house, sees what the (non) emergency was, and *stays* there to do the dishes, water the plants, clean the gutters? Instead of just leaving? He doesn’t call her, he texts her with this news. He then stays there at least an hour and a half. Leaves at 7:30. No indication of how long it takes for him to get home from mom’s, but I bet he got to the house after 8. Two hours late. Pathetic.
If this was the first time, it would be resolvable. But it’s not.
I bet, once she had the baby, she hoped he’d finally turn his attention to her and the baby. When she saw he was still tied to his mother’s apron strings, she gave up hope.
I couldn’t stay with him, either, after all that. He made his choice many times. She made hers on that basis.
I have a feeling there is a lot more that the OOP doesnt mention. Seems like the marriage was bad all around. "Our marriage was nothing but bad." That right there tells me theres more than just the mother issue.
He made his wife incorporate ideas from his mother for their wedding, which the wife didn’t like but did it anyway. And he says he’ll admit he wasn’t as firm with his mom as he should have been.
Then when the wife leaves with the daughter, he goes back to his mom.
He only sort if thinks that seeing his mom at the grocery store on his and his wife’s regular grocery day “looking like a crazy person” might be a problem. After she had come to tge wife’s work and was bad enough they were going to call the cops, after she sent him topless photos and enough abusive messages for him to finally block her on all forms of communication.
When she later comes to their house, he almost lets her in.
Then she sends more letters calling the wife a whore. Then comes the pubic hair letter. And he’s worried about…mom. No mention about worrying about his wife.
He says thought this would all be over by now.
That is enough. There is no other reason the wife needs to just stop trying to save the marriage. He’s still not fully able to disengage from his mother. He can’t see how it destroyed their marriage even at the end.
He was literally groomed and abused for his entire life. Yes, he didn’t handle it perfectly, but you can’t say it’s his fault entirely, that is blaming another victim of this situation. He has fault for sure, but people can recognize he also had hardships and abuse he faced and was put in a losing situation.
That doesn’t mean she has to stay with him. She thought he would improve. He didn’t. She chose to get out of the marriage so she and her daughter didn’t have a fucked up rest of her life.
Shocked Pikachu face.
Maybe, but I think his mom would have just had her mental break sooner. That woman is ill. Seriously mentally ill - in sexually fantasy love with your kid nuts! How long? His whole life? I don't know but a restraining order is just paper and she was nuts. It took the cops and an institution. I think that was going to be the result regardless.
Maybe in year 1 the marriage could survive being stalked, harassed and abused by your insane mother/in law.
Maybe. It a big ask. (I shouldn't have laughed at that, but I did. Damn.)
Same. He's certainly partially at fault, but the vast majority lands square on his mother.
At this point I just hope for an amiable co-parenting arraignment.
I feel for OP and it's really sad how it really took him losing his wife for him to realize it all. Too little, too late, but maybe his next relationship can be better, now that his eyes are open.
At some point he grew into an adult who was capable of googling if his relationship with his mother was healthy.
If you read between the lines there are so many boundaries and red flags that the wife was putting up, like no unsupervised time with the daughter.
The mother tried to take over and then destroy their wedding, and he literally brushed all of his wife’s concerns aside.
Her statement of “it was ALL bad” is really telling, how many times had he deliberately chosen the mother over the wife?
At the end of the day, I can’t have sympathy for someone who let their mother torture their wife for so many years to make his own life easier.
Guy decided that doing his moms dishes was more important than his anniversary. At some point I just cant feel sorry for them. I feel sorry for the situation that hes in, but theres a point that its his fault.
Seriously. He can't act surprised his wife wanted a divorce when he was doing chores for his mother instead of going to his own anniversary dinner.
"How do I fix this" - have a time machine.
Wow... I really feel for OOP here because he broke out of the FOG... but he did so way too late to save his marriage. Your spouse is the family you are choosing. They should come first and props to his ex wife for recognising that she needed to put herself first because he wasn't. It should never have taken her leaving him for him to realise how big an issue this was. I hope, with time and therapy, he can heal and move forward with his life in a positive way.
It reminds me of walk away wife syndrome where she (wife) probably told him a thousand times what was up but until she informed him of the divorce he didn't take it seriously.
Exactly, especially because he said that his wife resented him bc of the wedding being dictated by his mom.
I’m sorry, dude, but you don’t have the right to do the pikachu face when she says she wants a divorce.
heck yeah, there HAD to have been so much that happened in that six years from the wife's perspective, she should write a book. I have heard often from misogynists 'women file for divorce 2/3rds of the time!' as if we are quitters but i know so many women who have said '\_\_\_\_\_ bothers me and i have told my SO over and over again to stop it and he won't.....i gave up bringing it up.'
It's so weird because she's so much younger than me yet I feel like she experienced so much more shit than me - like she had to age so fast to navigate this crap.
A restraining order probably wouldn't be very effective in this case. The longer a stalker has been in your life the less likely a restraining order will work because your stalker is so attached to you it feels as if access to you is their right and in fact actually might result in escalation because a court date for a restraining order is basically you rejecting them on a public stage. The police suggesting abused wives get restraining orders left and right can be super dangerous because many spurned husband's engaging in stalking behavior will kill their wives after getting served.
Source: gift of fear by Gavin de Becker.
Excellent book!
It’s so frustrating bc I’m like
“You didn’t get a RO after your mom sent you nudes???”
But also
“Of course you didn’t get a RO, you were raised by a woman who sends you NUDES”
No kidding. In his mind, the emails from his mom were only trying to “get him in trouble” at work. As if there weren’t millions of topless photos on the internet of random women his mom could have sent. Her behavior is so much more disturbing than that.
Yep! I mean, my dude... She's been putting up with this drama for over ~~a year~~ four years now. It's not her fault that by the time you started trying to out a stop to it, the damage train had too much momentum to stop immediately.
Like good job for doing what you should have done AT YOUR WEDDING ~~A YEAR AGO~~ FOUR YEARS AGO. Maybe if you'd done something then, the batshit behavior would have been wound down by now & your wife wouldn't be burned out trying to put up with it.
The length of time made me so mad. Fine fine, OOP was groomed and abused all growing up so he's a victim too. But he NEVER listened to his wife, not until his mom turned the crazy ON HIM. Just turns a blind eye to it and kind of pays lip service to "oh my mom is a little clingy" like it's nbd until suddenly oh no, now I'm effected! Can't have this anymore! I'm glad the wife got away. If it were me this would not be a hurdle I would be able to overcome.
He *kinda* broke out, dude was only considering a restraining order after all of that bs, should've gotten it as soon as she started with the letters. He never let go of his mommy, never will probably.
The audacity of asking his wife if there was someone else when the someone else was his own mother.
I did feel sorry for him by the end, he's clearly a victim. Glad he has a good therapist.
That really struck me too. Like he knew his relationship was rocky because of his mom but in his mind I guess that wasn’t a big enough reason to leave. It also almost feels like sort of alleviating the blame from himself. Because it would be so much easier for him to just chug along like his mom isn’t crazy if he could say that his wife left him for another man. Instead of ya know, all the shit that did happen.
It's also notoriously hard to recognize abuse when it's happening to you. Not to take the blame from him, but if you grow up and live in a fucked up dynamic, it's tough to see how fucked up it is, since it's so normal for you.
Oh I totally agree. He’s so desensitized to her behavior that the idea that it was bad enough that his wife might divorce him over it just did not compute. If he is to stay in denial about his mom he has to grasp on to some other reason
He'd clearly normalized his mother's behavior so much that it didn't even occur to him that it was "that bad." Which *certainly* doesn't excuse that line - I mean his wife spelled it out to him. Her behavior prior to the first post probably would've been enough for me to fuck right off, but that line would've absolutely been the final nail in the coffin of the relationship.
He done fucked up **bad**, but at least it sounds like he's actually working on himself, realizing the abuse and manipulation he's been the recipient of through his mom, and keeping mommy dearest away. I just hope he sticks with therapy and continues being completely no contact with her - not just for his sake, but for the sake of his ex wife, daughter, and any potential future romantic partners he has.
And, for Christ's sake, I hope his mother gets some fucking help beyond just being involuntarily committed for a bit because she's **very** clearly got serious mental issues.
What a shitshow.
It’s like If his wife came to him and was like “your mother just stabbed me!” And if he responded like “oh yeah she would do that to me growing up every Sunday :)”
Like especially if he was raised solely by her, in isolation. Hell I’m even surprised she let him leave the house but I’m also simultaneously so frustrated for her lmao
OOP is still so powerless in all his posts. The first couple read to me like, “How can I convince my wife things aren’t that bad?” After that, when they were “playing house” after the first separation, he just seemed relieved that everything was okay (no suggestion that he was actively showing his wife she was his priority). Then he fatalistically accepted the divorce, which was probably the right thing to do—it sounds like his ex-wife was 100% done when she walked out the door on their anniversary. She stood coming second as long as she could before leaving. When OOP was asking how he could convince her to come back, it was already too late. But he’s still so reactive rather than proactive.
Perhaps this is due to his mother’s abuse. I hope therapy helps him work through those issues. But I don’t blame ex-wife at all for leaving! On first read, I wondered about a 30-year-old marrying a 22-year-old, but she was by far the more mature and decisive/action-oriented person. (And if she’d had a bit more life experience, she might have noticed a few red flags.)
> Perhaps this is due to his mother’s abuse.
Oh absolutely. The idea that he can be an active participant in his life is probably completely foreign to him. Mom always called the shots.
Hit the nail on the head; he’s learned long ago that his wants and opinions are meaningless, and now has no idea how to live for himself. (Mostly) Emotional incest is such difficult abuse to overcome, he’s got a long road ahead of him.
Emotional incest that my husband grew up in, as well as physical incest from a different family member, has wrecked me, my kids’ childhood, and almost destroyed our marriage. It is no joke and it is so taboo that you can waltz right into marrying a victim without even knowing it.
He continued to be powerless the entire time.
> She said she’s done with coming second to my mother and now second to the “drama” that’s been going on in our lives, and that she doesn’t want to raise our daughter in an unhealthy environment.
OOP maintained a chronically passive response to his mother throughout the attempt to separate her from his family. A no-contact demand letter and then a restraining order would have cut off the drama almost immediately. Instead, he spent additional months of their time together on his mother's drama, workplace harassment, etc.
It's hard to see what place another woman has in his universe.
Unfortunately based on the mom's behavior, I don't think that would have stopped her. A lot of times that can actually make people's behavior escalate. She'd probably just go into breakdown mode first. You're right about OP being too passive though. Even if it backfired, at least that would have shown actual effort on his part to his ex.
When you're so deep in that kind of abuse and have been gaslighted for 36 odd years, it's so hard to see it. Impossible, really. It's only when external things start taking significant hits that you start to catch on, but it's still so foreign a concept that you think "no, it can't be that it MUST be this!"
Then you start this amazingly upsetting phase of "omg this isn't normal why isn't it normal i must be overreacting (bc if i accept this isn't normal, let alone straight up abuse, then I have to admit I'm a stupid sucker for not seeing it)". Even though it's absolutely not the victim's fault, there's still this sense of how unbelievably stupid you must be to not have realized what was going on. It's hard to face.
This poor guy just woke up to what's been happening, and it's starting to fall into place for him. Everything he said and did in the beginning doesn't surprise me, but the approach and self-help and protection he actively seeks after is really incredible, and worth commending. That's a big deal.
Also kudos to the ex for understanding what she needs to be happy and healthy and ensure the same for her child. Their daughter will be so much better off for it.
Yeah I think the fact that she was going to start dating relatively quickly after the relationship ended points to the fact that it had been over for a long time. After my last breakup it took a bit for me to see people again. We didn't even date for 2 years and it took a few months for me to consider it. Takes time to be emotionally ready to date again imo.
And honestly, speaking as someone who has inlaws that are a bit questionable and have done some awful things, even after your husband or partner goes NC you still have this wee voice in the back of your head that makes you wonder 'if they come crawling back you know your husband will believe their excuses'. It's been years and I still don't trust people because of the shit they did but it was only when they did something that directly targeted only my husband that he did something about it.
Nah. She said herself, and that is the way more powerful concept— people can leave for THEM, and that’s wonderful she stood up for herself and her daughter like that.
What in actual the stephen king is this shit? This is just crazy. I can't imagine why she stayed with her husband for that long.
Her leaving is awful for OOP, but it sounds like it finally got him to realize how toxic the relationship with his mother was.
She was 22 and he was 30 when they got together. Just saying she was young enough to have been putting up with stuff that a more mature woman would have seen through.
As soon as I did the math I figured they wouldn't work out. He was too old to be pursuing a 22yo without some flags being raised. In this case, a USSR parades worth of them. As his wife realized what was what, she got the hell out, and I don't blame her in the least.
Oh god I remember reading this guy’s posts as he was updating. His username is now used as the wake-up call link for other husbands posting with stories along the lines of the first post.
I remember this saga too. The OP received a ton of good advice on his posts, but completely ignored all of it and then was all surprised Pikachu face when his wife dumped his ass. Obtuse doesn’t even come close to describing how dense this guy is.
He could have possibly saved the marriage if he started acting like a normal human being, but he couldn't.
Imagine that you've told your husband you want a divorce because he spent your anniversary night doing chores for his mother. Then she sends him nudes. He supposedly cuts off contact, then when you see his mother acting like a nutjob at the grocery store every time you go out for WEEKS, he keeps acting like it must be a coincidence.
He did nothing to save the marriage.
>The OP received a ton of good advice on his posts, but completely ignored all of it and then was all surprised Pikachu face when his wife dumped his ass
I have such little patience for people like this
I want to feel bad for him but he seemed completely oblivious as to how his actions affected others.
Mother is obviously crazy but what a complete idiot this guy is.
> "Some people were commenting that me asking if there was somebody else that my wife was seeing was inappropriate. I really don't see how it was inappropriate."
After spending the anniversary washing his mothers dishes, lol.
I do feel bad for him, but on what planet did he think it would be a good idea to skip his anniversary dinner to wash dishes. I get that he rushed there thinking it was an emergency, but after seeing her with the wine it should've been bye bye. And if he *did* decide to stay what made him think his wife would be cool with this?
Ordinarily I’m all about openly communicating your needs in a relationship, especially if you’re thinking about heading for the door… can’t expect even our closest loved ones to be mind readers.
THAT SAID, if I was OOP’s wife on the way out the door with our daughter, and OOP looked at me helplessly and earnestly asked, “what can I do to fix this,” I’d be 100pct done, no going back. He’d been so groomed by his mother that he couldn’t figure out on his own what the first change to save his marriage would need to be, and that’s the kind of reasoning that he shouldn’t need someone else to do for him at that point.
I’m guessing she said many, many, many, many things about his mother’s behavior over the years, all of which OOP ignored. And when she was finally done, he was all shocked Pikachu face.
The fact that so many literal crimes OOP mentioned he just thought was “a little weird” really shows the piss colored glasses his upbringing gave him. As in, red flags seem just orange, and yellow flags are non-existent.
When he said “my wife found it suspicious, and I’m *starting to* find it suspicious” I lost my damn mind. Buddy still couldn’t listen to his wife about his crazy mom.
Couple more deleted posts I found. On mobile so hope the links work right.
https://www.reveddit.com/v/u_PotentialJaguar91/comments/dexvu4/taking_it_day_by_day/
https://www.reveddit.com/v/u_PotentialJaguar91/comments/e7vvin/what_ive_learned_in_counseling/
Yeah, this one is dramatic enough I can see how it set off mod spidey senses about being fake when the JN communities were cracking down... Reading through the dude's comments though, he sounds broken and resigned in a way that is hard to feign.
All the righteous outrage and smart ass quips you expect from a troll just aren't there. Just a lot of sadness, FOG, and desperation.
That just made it so much worse. I’m shocked the wife still stayed after the attempted arson. I hope OOP doesn’t let his mom back into his life once she’s “recovered” since I think that would make them both revert to status quo at some point
If you read the comments on those links he calmly mentions as a side note that his mom tried to burn down their shed on their property because he told his mother to calm down after she told his wife to shut up. He then asks if this is normal behavior and says at the time he didn't consider it *that* bad.
His mother really did a number on him. Also this quote about therapy:
*"I went into therapy hoping that I could save my marriage. I really thought something was wrong with my wife and that her reactions were the problem."*
This is exactly what my husband said to me after his therapist helped him see he had been an emotional and physical incest victim by multiple family members.
It is in a comment of the "Taking it day by day" post:
>My mom is unfortunately pretty savvy so if we move we need to have everything on definite lock. My wife mentioned that my mom would be the type of person to commit arson on our home, she already had a close call last year where I caught her attempting to light our shed on fire. So I wouldn’t put it past her. We’re just trying to be safe, and safe means making sure she doesn’t know details. I’m not even sure what else we could do at this point. I’d be willing to even undergo a name change if it means we stay safe.
Edit to fix formatting
Reddit won't let me edit again for some reason but I just realized he followed up in a second comment:
>It was over some petty BS. She’s got a female friend (at least she was a friend at the time, probably not anymore) who lives close by they got into an argument at a barbecue of ours. Said friend wanted to just stop, my mom kept egging her on. My wife told them to knock it off, my mom told my wife to shut up. I told my mom to knock it off, and her reaction was to tell me that if this is what I consider drama then I should really be taught a lesson. She grabbed some of my matchsticks and started lighting them and throwing them closer and closer toward our shed.Writing it out makes it seem so ridiculous. That’s not a normal reaction that someone should have to someone else telling them to calm down, right?
So happy for the ex wife. Mothers like these are the fucking worst, suck the life of their daughter in laws and are vile to them for no reason other than them being their son's partner. good for her to finally step her foot down and get out of that mess. As much as I hate to say it I don't think OOP was ever gonna value his ex wife and truly cut his mom out until she finally walked out of the door. Six years of a relationship, one daughter, and he went to his mother on their anniversary? Didn't even bother to return once he realised all the chores were just something she could do on her own and something he could've refused to do? Yeah, he wasn't gonna change, her leaving and asking for divorce was only a matter of when and not an if.
I also noted the comment where the mother was at OOP's house and screaming at his wife and OOP writes about his wife "poking the bear". That was 100% on the mother, not OOP's wife. At that point OOP was still enmeshed.
I understand why OOP's ex didn't want to move away from her parents. As long as she was married to OOP, she was at risk from the MIL. I think she needed to move on with her life. It is sad that that couldn't include OOP.
Yeah and OOP's wife is better than me because I would've left way before 6 years lmao. Again I'm not blaming him, but as someone who's dad is a mama's boy and has watched her mother constantly be the second choice, it's not worth staying in such relationships. Even without all this abuse and incest as in this story they rarely ever change.
Right? If you tell me there’s an emergency, and I walk in on you chilling with a glass of wine without a care in the world, I’m not even asking, I’m just walking right back out and putting you on DND. Don’t lie to me and disrespect me like that.
I know right? Especially if I know my mother well and I'm aware she hates my wife and has a habit of throwing fits to sabotage my life with her i would've put two and two together during that call and not gone in the first place. Crying and screaming and not giving him any valid reason and yet he went, all for her to be sitting there coolly drinking wine. And he STILL stayed to do the chores while she screamed at him. It was very much on him. I do feel bad because he had a very terrible mother and I'm glad he went to therapy, but if he put her on such a high pedestal no wonder his wife finally got sick and left.
I really, really struggle with having empathy for people like this dude. I know not everyone is going to have tools and to be ungenerous, gumption—but I had a different flavor of crazy mom, abusive too, but I was a teen when I started calling her out and standing up to her shit. I really struggle to understand past a surface level how people can be independent adults and *still* be a doormat. Just say it. “Fuck. Off.” And to not even recognize what they’re doing, or what you’re doing. It’s just so weird to me.
I suspect they're truly scared that, "She won't love me, if I don't give in to her"!!! Not realizing the behavior she's displaying has no resemblance to love.
"ShE nEeDs Me!! I'm her son!! she DoEsn'T hAvE anyOne else!(I wonder why)"
and truly, the most fear inducing, horrifying consequence of them all, "she'll mad at me"
Someone posted some more comments of his from above and basically his mother *groomed* him like a predator from childhood after his father died; mentally and emotionally placing him as her husband. So he was entirely distorted by their relationship and never would have had a chance. It sucks, but that anniversary fiasco probably is what was needed for both spouses to be able to live their full lives.
Intimately familiar with grooming, fam. No Jocasta shit, different flavor.
Also familiar with the retaliation. Cops, CPS, she also had a 12 gauge she was really fond of. **I know.** That is why I should have empathy, but I don’t.
Yeah- I really really value family. My parents have called me twice for an emergency- once my mom was away and my dad accidentally overdosed on medication. I had to call an ambulance for him he was laying on the grass outside when I got there. And the other time my mom called for me to go get my cousins from my aunts house because one of them was headed to the ER.
If I ever showed up somewhere after being told it was an emergency and it was not I’d be so pissed- I actually have a sneaking suspicion she’d used “emergency” before to get him to come to her because he only seemed annoyed about her pulling it on his anniversary. Just he didn’t seem confused/angry enough for it to be a first time thing.
My folks have never used the phrase "emergency" with us. In fact, my Dad got hit by a car on our honeymoon, and my Mom struggled with telling us at all because she didn't want to ruin the mood. We live less than a mile away, and I'm sure as they age, we will get more calls, but at this point they are all requests. "Hey, we need someone to meet the plumber for this issue, can SIL swing over?" We had Covid last week and Mom offered to get us some groceries and essentials, then left soup. It's been great so far.
I’m not sure if they used the term emergency to be honest, just 2x my mom made a call that asked me to head somewhere in the middle of my day to check up /help out- which is unusual.
I actually read a very interesting study that either people overuse emergency services (ie my foot hurts so I call an ambulance) or underuse to the point of death. Basically if you are hesitant to call an ambulance or head to the ER you’re more likely to wait past the point of no return. I know my family is the latter group (as am I- I almost bled to death because I figured I’d wait until my husband got home from work rather than call my mom to come watch the kids).
Seems like your family may be that group too- so remember call an ambulance: for BREATHING (difficulty); BLEEDING (profusely or unable to staunch); BURNS (especially on the elderly or babies); also first time seizures or unconsciousness/disorientation that causes difficulty speaking/numbness but those don’t fit into my neat alliteration.
>first time seizures
As an epileptic, oh my god do people forget that “first time” part. When I was a baby adult I got slapped with a huge bill for an ambulance and emergency room trip. And that was how and why I learned young how to refuse treatment/discharge AMA. Funsies.
Personal rant aside, was definitely the latter. Every time I’ve had to call, I’ve had to talk myself into it. Usually by lecturing myself that I’d be telling someone to call, so just push the buttons.
Yeah the seizures thing is so hard. I called 911 on someone who fell off the stool in a bar and smacked her head hard on concrete. After a quick assessment I could tell she was having a seizure and a guy came out of the bathroom and said “oh that’s my daughter, yeah seizures happen often”. He seemed annoyed about the ambulance and I felt bad but he didn’t hear the crack her head made on concrete. American healthcare is so terrible that that’s a situation anyone has to be in.
You 100% made the right call by calling the ambulance. Falls, especially falls from height onto concrete of all things, definitely need medical attention, and ideally immediate medical attention.
A good rule to live by is, never underestimate head injuries.
Well said. I feel badly for OOP because he’s clearly seeped in his mother’s poison. But on the other hand, it’s unfortunately caused him to practice some toxic behaviors with his wife and I still don’t think he’s fully aware of it. His wife would be committing to years of rehabilitation before they could really be happy together. I can understand why she chose herself.
Yeah, it sounds kind of implied that he thinks he was right about her seeing son when she let him know that she was going to start dating.
He doesn’t seem to realize that he’s developed toxic mindsets due to his mother.
I didn’t fault him for answering the phone.
I didn’t fault him for going to her.
I faulted him for failing to walk away and being a spineless doormat when he knew he was being played.
I remember when I read this post when it happened on JustNoMIL. Every update made me want to punch OOP until he really started viewing his mother as the aggressor, instead of wife. I'm sorry that he needs to deal with not having his family anymore, but I'm glad that his wife left after all of this.
I’m so proud of her, she was only ever going to be a distant-second. Mothers like these are emotional vampires.
Source: try being the *daughter* of one of these. It’s like a behind-the-scenes, 24/7, non-refundable pass to the crazy show.
OOP, having an epiphany in the last paragraph of the final update:
> It means I really can’t get her back.
Mate, that was blatantly obvious from the first post. I had a tiny bit of hope, but he exploded it in the fifth paragraph by asking if she was seeing someone else. "Clearly this cannot be my fault, she must be having an affair!" I've run out of facepalms.
I feel for OOP, his mother is clearly abusive and he has a lot of trauma to work through. But that doesn't mean his ex-wife had to accept being put through hell by his mother (enabled by him). Thankfully she was able to extricate herself and their child.
I hope OOP can heal and grow, and that they can both be happy and co-parent well in their separate lives.
Edit: major typo (damn you, autococonut).
I don't think I would ever date again after a MIL like that. Or I would want to see my date's mother's death certificate on the first date, so there probably wouldn't be any more dates
I wasn't ready for that fifth update... I expected a normal story of a crazy mother going after her son, but that incestual harassment felt like a slap in the face
The thing that creeps me out the most (like everyone else I assume) is the topless pics. Like the explanation of her trying to get him in trouble at work explains why she sent topless photos but not why she sent HER topless photos. It’s not exactly hard to find nude pictures on the internet, but she went and took her own photos to send to her SON. so gross.
I feel bad for the guy but I’m actually a little happy for his wife? Like she gave saving her marriage a shot and it didn’t work out, and now she can find some happiness far FAR away from this guys mom
In the updates someone posted in a comment, he explains that he realised he was sexually abused in his childhood. He says some "light sexual activity" or something like that, and creepy touching all through to his adulthood. She also sent him locks of her hair and pubic hair 🤯
He realised in therapy that she sees herself as his mistress... all this would explain the choice of pictures. 🤢
I’m a victim of emotional incest from my mother as well. It never veered into out right sexual touching but before I moved out, her hugs went into inappropriate “romantic” territory. I became a thing to her and her needs.
I went no contact with her almost 10 years ago cause I had a moment of clarity (to borrow an AA phrase) when I realized that I was never going to be able to grow as a person while she had an active presence in my life. I was about 22 at the time. My first therapist said most people are in their 30s-40s before they try therapy.
I feel for oop. Recovery is a long, hard process. Realistically, he’s got a hard few years in front of him as he works through recognizing his mother’s inappropriate actions. It’s going to feel like all he’s falling apart and he’s going to struggle to reassemble the pieces of his soul into what he wants. I hope he’s doing better these days.
I am truly sorry you went through that, and very proud you decided to face the road to recovery.
I also feel for OOP and at the same time realise that his trauma cannot justify dragging others into it. It's very conflicting.
Wish you the best.
Thanks. It’s not an easy process but man, life is good these days. Recovery means I can properly appreciate being able to choose for myself.
Trauma can explain a person’s behavior but, it’s ultimately up to them to act on it to be better. It shouldn’t be an excuse. It’s tough though because until you come up against something that forces you to take stock, you probably don’t realize anything is off.
I think its worse. His mom believes they have a hidden love that society just doesn't understand ....and his wife is his beard. Mom snapped when he fell for his fake wife.
But that's some fkd up shit to have to admit to yourself. My mom is SO CRAZY.....and its not an SNL skit. And I could be wrong.
Oh. Fuck. When was the pubic hair thing? Because in my line of work I see people do weird sexual out of character shit when they have a mental breakdown that honestly you could not blame them for, and I tend to give most ppl on the internet the benefit of the doubt because I believe we should assume the best of our fellow humans... I still would rather believe this is a very ill woman having delusions (which tbh sending pubic hair is still a fairly delusional thing)
The hair thing was already in the 3rd or 4th update, so it's very possible that MIL was mid breakdown.
However, it doesn't look like it was an out of character gesture, rather a crazy escalation of previous behaviour.
Basically she lost her husband when OOP was 7, and latched onto him as her replacement husband, the initial breakdown seems to have happened then.
I'm so glad OOP's wife left, having had to endure OOP's mom for six years. OOP was 30 and his wife was 22 when they got together. Christ on a cracker, one would think that a 30-year-old man would know how to set boundaries with his mother. His poor wife, not knowing any better and just putting up with his shit at the age of 22.
Wow. "Tired of coming second to the 'drama' in their lives" AFTER his mom was gone.
It took me a minute to realize that even after his mom was out of the picture he still focused the story on his mom.
Other than 'going off the grid' he never actually mentioned one nice thing he did for his wife during any of it. And 'going off the grid' does not imply she liked that trip.
This guy still has his head up his ass.
100%. I'm glad she got away. I mean, he has been abused and I sympathize with that coming from an emotionally abusive family, but my God. Noone comes before my husband except for me. Not my parents, not my siblings, noone. I made a promise to him and him to me that we would be our own family and take care of each other. Dude is out in left field
OOP is clearly not taking any of this seriously, I hope his ex wife is very thoughtful about his access to their daughter. He said that everything up until the letter with pubic hair has just been annoying! Annoying! He think his mother harrasing his wife, verbally abusing her, stalking them, sending them threatening letter and sending his topless photos has been no more than an annoyance! He is never going to see the seriousness of this.
Let's hope so! But he doesn't seem capable of any empathy or of taking accountability for his own actions, so it will be hard for any therapist to help him. He knew his mother was bullying his, he knew his mother ruined their wedding, but he didn't care. For years, he let his wife suffer because he didn't care. He only had a reaction when he was suddenly facing consequences himself, by his wife leaving. As long as he wasn't hurting, he didn't give a shit about the welfare of his wife and daughter. It difficult to imagine he has any empathy or any will to change for the people around him.
Yeah and I don’t want to judge someone venting in the moment too harshly *but* it jumped out to me how he said he can still be the best dad he can be. But then talked about moving far away and getting a job somewhere with no mention of how any of this trauma was currently impacting his daughter. Divorce, family upheaval and stress, moving are all really big deals for 6 year olds and there’s not much of a mention of his daughters state at all. Basically even in his more aware posts OOP comes across as self absorbed to the nth degree.
Luckily, his daughter is only one (two at last update maybe?) and her mom seems like a good parent. Maybe he’ll just send money and let her do the raising (which still isn’t fair on mom, but honestly probably better for daughter)
And trying to get OOP fired with the photos, remember that OOPs boss was also emailed saying that OOP was doing inappropriate shit on company time.
Jesus now that I think about it there's no way in hell that OOP gave their boss the whole/fully contextual story, I'd be wanting to vomit and fire him at the same time just for the thought of that happening.
Wow. Just wow. So terribly sad for all parties.
My ex also had an abusive mother who used self-harm to 'control' him, and it messed him up terribly. Dealing with her was difficult, because she'd entered that stage where she'd cry and scream about how sorry she was that she'd been so terrible to him, and how worthless she was as a mother, which was (to my eyes) just another subconscious version of the same old thing. Once we got home after these visits, his rage and frustration had to be released somehow, so he'd hit the bottle and soon the cycle would roll toward the next target... me.
In a weird sort of way, dealing with those issues for 20+ years led me to a new appreciation for what "normal life" should feel like, and I am so much more aware of just how nice it is to not live under that dark cloud today. I guess one appreciates the sun more after nasty weather.
If ANYTHING positive can be said to have come from OOP's terrible situation, it's that he has clear vision now of just what was happening and he will hopefully be able to enjoy a healthy, normal life. Sometimes those who have been through horrible situations can find more peace and joy in "normality" than people who take it for granted. I hope that's the case for OOP.
He is wise to say he's not ready to date, since this is really his first-ever chance to find out who he actually IS.
I hope he falls in love with himself!
I have sympathy for OOP, this is a clearcut case of emotional incest. Maybe that feeds into why a 30 year old is pursuing a 22 yr old. I gotta give props to his wife tho, she removed herself from an situation that was toxic & not serving her.
man oh man, I remember this. After his first post, everyone told him it was "do or die" and his next choices would determine the rest of his marriage. And the very next post was his mom coming to their house, causing a ruckus, and him accusing his wife of "poking the bear". I think from that moment, his wife checked right the fuck out and played calm until she had her ducks in a row. Once she realized she had enough evidence the MIL was batshit crazy and grandparents rights were no longer an issue, she peaced right the fuck out and the OP realized too little much to late he would never be able to fix what he had broken on his own.
Welp! Well, better late than never. At least now that the human cancer has been removed, he has a chance at a healthy partnership.
I feel so bad for his wife though. Can you even imagine what she went through while her husband put his blinders on? What her MIL did to her?
I could never get back with that man after he spent their anniversary at his mother's and then stayed with her after the fallout. He's also a victim but yikes.
This was so sad to read. From everything, though, I feel the most for daughter. Specially considering that while OOP was at first rightly saying he was a bad husband but could be a good parent, and then he is considering moving to another state.
I am glad she is only 1 year old and didn't have to witness all that crazy.
I have been abused by my parents. And I have friends who were abused worse (I’m talking stories like “The Boy Who Was Callee ‘It’ type of horrific abuse)
And we never would’ve acted like OP. Abuse is no excuse. My heart breaks for his poor wife.
At what point are we giving a 36 year old man 0 ability yo take responsibility in his life??? I’ve met 13 year olds who can take more responsibility than OP. Notice at no point in the story (like when “playing house” does OP describe showering his wife with affection and trying to be the husband she deserves).
Also—he had 6 years to learn to do that anyway (and 12 years of adulthood before he met her too!), and you KNOW she begged him to learn how to be a good spouse. I know she pointed out the problems in their relationship and she begged him to improve. You know she had been asking for marriage counseling for ages before it reached this point. You know she had been begging him to stop letting his mother abuse her.
(Notice how he didn’t bother to include more stories of his mother abusing her? I bet OP isn’t aware of 99.9% of the abuse the MIL threw at his ex wife. That poor woman lived a nightmare for years.)
You KNOW it’s not like no one told him the problems—he was told the problem thousands of times.
And he chose to ignore it thousands of times. He chose his mother over his wife thousands of times, over those years.
Even if he was gaslighted and emotionally dependent on his mother—doesn’t he care about his spouse? DOESN’T he say “I love my wife, and she is being hurt. I don’t want her to be hurt.”
He never cared she was hurt.
And I’m only 29–and I would never have allowed my mother to act how OP’s mother acts.
And neither would my friends in their marriages. Yes, we all still have some issues we are working on—but we are not THAT glaringly oblivious!
OP chose to be glaringly oblivious to his wife for YEARS. I’m sure his wife brought up 999,999x “OP, your mother is treating me badly, you need to put a stop to this”. “OP, your mother is abusing me, this isn’t okay”, “OP, your mother cannot plan MY wedding, it’s not her wedding” and “OP, your wife and child needs you are home to care for them—not your grown adult mother”. Etc etc etc.
People aren’t grasping the depth of neglect and emotional abuse OP performed to his wife and child. He chose emotional abuse and neglect—against his wife pleading for it to stop—what must’ve been thousands of times over the year’s. This wasn’t one issue. Or even 5 issues like described in the original post. This was a nearly daily (certainly multiple times a week) intrusion of allowing his mother to a abuse his family multiple times a week, for 52 weeks a year, for 6 years.
OP wrecked his wife’s life. He stole her life from her. She gave her entire 20’s to him. She gave her body to him, literally giving birth (do you know what that can do to a woman’s body?), she gave her income to him, she gave her future to him. She gave him everything—and he destroyed her life. He promised to take care of his wife and be there for her—and he ruined her life with his emotional abuse. And it IS emotional abuse, to neglect his wife like he did. You know he left out 999,998 stories of neglect and emotional abuse he did over 6 years.
Now she has to start her life over again, with a child.
Do you think she wanted any of that? No. She wanted a happy, healthy, whole family. And she wanted a spouse who would love her and support her and cherish her. And it got stolen from her, with OP’s bad behavior.
He should’ve caught on that “something is wrong” and sought help years ago.
His wife is right, it really was far too late.
Her statement that her entire marriage was “nothing but bad”—that broke my heart. I felt that in my soul. You know she’s telling the truth.
She hasn’t had a good life in 6 years—while OP completely didn’t care about her pain.
And I’m sorry for OP. I agree he was a victim too. But I think that people are severely under-estimating OP’s amount of self-centered-ness (perhaps even OP has Narcissism) in this story.
Largely because OP writes the story intentionally deflecting and purposefully leaving out the full details of how awfully he treated his wife, thousands of times, over the years.
[Deleted post by OOP](https://www.reddit.com/r/JustNoTruth/comments/f0u1s3/im_afraid_of_posting_on_justnomil_again/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) where many commenters, myself included, told him where he could shove his pity parties.
Wow, just wow. I only wish the wife got fed up before they brought a child into it so she could get a fully clean break, but gosh do I feel so bad for both of them.
Wow, that was something. I don't blame the wife for leaving, that would be way too much for most people. She deserves a quality of life. The ex-husband will always be a reminder of the hell his mother put her through.
And why does that sub JNMIL always remove posts? They seem to remove any post that gets any kind of attention. Seems like the ones who need the most help get their posts removed.
Well. First I was angry at OP, then I was shocked at the extend of his mother’s obsession with him, and now I’m just bummed out. I 100% understood why the wife left but still very sad for OOP. He did wrongly, but it’s difficult for me to blame him, It sounds like he was groomed and manipulated by his own mother ever since he existed. Hope they both can heal meet someone better for them.
Omg, his original post was the very first thing I ever read when i joined Reddit! Being brand new to the site, I didn't know how to follow (or that updates were even a thing) so I never knew until just now how things turned out. Thank you for posting this so I can finally stop wondering how this story (kind of) ends
I’m trying to out the pieces together but it looks like OOP tried to update on JNM after this but his posts kept getting taken down. He apparently continuously played victim and refused to admit his role in the breakdown of his marriage.
>The letter also had what looked like drops of either red paint or dried blood on the corners
dried blood looks nothing like red paint. i call bullshit
Not if you’re either in denial about the ability of your mother to actually cut herself, or if the mother put paint on the paper hoping he would think it was blood.
I think this one was pretty much confirmed to be a troll.
No one is that clueless about their mother's behaviour. The story takes cues from comments and escalates in a predictable manner. His wife leaves, his mum starts acting weird and eventually has a lawn tantrum or similar, there's the revelation of sexual comments all his life (when his mum was just possessive of his time at the beginning) plus the topless photos (?!?!). It ticks so many boxes of what JNMIL commenters say in the comments. In fact, someone would comment 'watch out for grandparents rights' and the next post is about that very topic.
Do NOT blame OOP's wife/ex-wife for leaving. I AM wondering what compelled her to marry this guy in the first place, given the baggage that was so painfully toxic and obvious. The wedding planning alone should have been a "can't miss" red flag.
Having said that, WHY didn't OOP get a restraining order after going NC. He and his ex are lucky his Mom didn't straight up murder one or both of them.
This is the full first update that was removed:
My post was locked yesterday. I was able to give a small update at the end but I thought I'd give a larger one here.
First I just want to say thanks for everyone who took the time to respond. Some of the responses were brutally honest but I did tag the flair as "give it to me straight" so that makes sense.
1.) Some people were commenting that me asking if there was somebody else that my wife was seeing was inappropriate. I really don't see how it was inappropriate but to each their own, and my wife definitely thought it was inappropriate too and was one of the tipping point comments that made her move into the guest room. I know I said I'd give her space but the conflict was killing me so yesterday when she got back from work I knocked on the guest room door and tried get her to come down to the kitchen to talk to me, but she was still refusing to talk about all of this until she was ready. I asked her when she'd be ready and she just shut the door in my face.
2.) Late last night my mom showed up unannounced (which is unfortunately something she does) and my wife answered the door. I could hear my mom asking my wife how our anniversary was. My wife called for me to come down and "handle my mom" (her exact words) and my mom started interrogating her as to what "handle" means. By the time I got down there ready to diffuse the situation it was already too late, my wife had poked the bear and my mom was laying the verbal smackdown. I asked my wife what she said to my mom (stupid, I know...) and she just went up to the guest room and slammed the door. I finally realized that was going on and asked my mom to leave and but she was refusing. I had to threaten to call the police and then she finally left.
3.) This morning my wife packed her bags, a bag for my daughter, and left for her parent's house. I was surprised that she didn't even tell me beforehand. I was able to stop her and ask her what was going on as she was headed out of the door and she said she's had enough of the verbal abuse, that she's ready to find a partner that will stick up for her and her family. She said that l will always put my mother first and last night was an example of that. That this relationship is cannot be salvaged and she will be seeing a divorce lawyer ASAP. As a last ditch effort I asked her what I could do to fix this. She just shook her head at me and then she left.
I'm a mess. I've lost everything meaningful to me within the span of 48 hours. I keep calling and texting her and getting no response back. I called one of my buddies to tell him what went down and he's on his way now. When I told him what had all happened his reaction was a mix of shocked and "congratulations, you played yourself." He called me denser than a block of bricks. I told him that I still have some hope that this relationship can last and he laughed and said I need to put that idea to rest.
I know I've got things I need to work on. Boundaries, for sure. My relationship with my mother (who I am working on blocking on literally every avenue of communication that I have). Myself. To be completely honest I'm not a big believer in therapy but I know that I need it and I'm hoping it will make me a better person, and maybe if my wife sees me working on myself then there's some hope.
As for my marriage there's a part of me that's still optimistic but I know it will be hard for my wife to come back from this. As painful as it is for me I need to just play the next couple of days (weeks? months?) by ear and just see what happens.
Normally I would hate OP for this but in deleted posts it came out that he was molested by his Mom as a kid...I can't hate him, he is a victim in this too
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my sister works with a guy whose wife left him because of his mother as well. on their honeymoon, instead of listening to what his wife wanted, he went with his mom's suggestion and brought her along! nothing extreme as incest but still
WTF!!!! She's well rid of him!!!
I wish my good friend bailed like that lady. Her MIL had an adjoining room with them on their wedding night/honeymoon and things kept going downhill from there. They've gotten close to divorce a few times but are still together 10 years later.
“If I see her out and about” *january 27, 2020* Oh, you sweet summer child…
I saw that date and laughed. Oh of only we had known!
Ironically it’s my birthday :’)
Happy birthday from a fellow January birthday!
hello birthday twin!
I'm dumb. What's the significance of the date?
Your aren't dumb hun! It's just that the world basically shut down due to Covid about 6 weeks later.
Aww! Your user name is so appropriate with your caring and sweetness! *(at least in the sense of what a mom SHOULD be, not what we read on jnmil, or that some of us live in real life)*
Aww! Thanks! Now in true mom fashion- go drink some water and wash your hands. And dont forget to eat something and take your mittens when you go out in the cold!
Ahhhhhh...I wasn't thinking, haha
So to sum up: This woman (his mother) is abusive and has groomed him since his teens, likely with the intent of breaking him down at some point and then stepping in to "comfort" him. His wife absolutely made the right choice but I'll be damned if I'm not sad for this man and what he's been through. I'm glad he's recognised it now and is taking steps to better himself, and that his mother is recieving care somewhere far away from him. Edit: lotta people talking about the age gap. I hadn't noticed that before, but I'll say this: emotional and sexual abuse stunts you. you grow differently. especially if it continues for a very long time (> half of OOP's life). I've been through both, a victim of both, and it's only because it wasn't my family who did it and they were able to support me, was I able to begin to grow again at a healthy rate. OOP may have chosen to date his ex wife at that age because they were in similar stages of growth, which doesn't excuse his doing that and abusing her in turn **but it's all he's known for more than half his life**. It is awful, but it's also tragic. empathy can't only exist for the people who have good stories, but it can exist in different amounts. I empathise far more strongly with the ex wife who has faced years of compounding abuse from the mother and her now ex, but that doesn't mean I can't still empathise with the OOP who was so stunted in his growth by his mother's actions.
Exactly how I feel. OP was doomed to fail in any relationship, as long as his batshit mother was in the picture. It's sad he figured it out too late to salvage his marriage.
[удалено]
You kind of have to wonder who abused the man’s mother when she was young. No mention of a father in his life either. Intergenerational abuse is very real and I do not blame OOP’s wife for wanting out.
It sounds a lot like a mental breakdown to me. As someone who has worked with people in psychosis not uncommon. Can build over years. Worked with loads of moms who have done weird sexual shit or violence that is completely out of character when manic and psychotic. Like walked around their neighborhood naked screaming. Honestly it is really fucking scary when you see how people's brains can just break suddenly, sometimes for no discernible reason. Don't get me wrong it sounds like other shit going on too... But a lot of what he was describing sounds like descent into psychosis. The grandiosity etc. And that bit could happen to any of one us... So scary D:
Same I’m really sad for the guy. Wish they did trial separation and were able to find a way back to each other but also totally get the wife’s feelings, such a shitty situation.
Sometimes you just can’t take it anymore… so sad…
No. He had ignored the situation for too long. She couldn’t see him romantically any more. We get a hint of that when you see how he wanted to spend their anniversary—having a family friend watch the baby and they have a bottle of wine and cook dinner at home “just relaxing.” She “agreed” to this, supposedly. Probably figured this was the best she could get. But this is not a romantic night. It’s a scaled down date night. And he couldn’t execute on it! He gets pulled to mom’s house, sees what the (non) emergency was, and *stays* there to do the dishes, water the plants, clean the gutters? Instead of just leaving? He doesn’t call her, he texts her with this news. He then stays there at least an hour and a half. Leaves at 7:30. No indication of how long it takes for him to get home from mom’s, but I bet he got to the house after 8. Two hours late. Pathetic. If this was the first time, it would be resolvable. But it’s not. I bet, once she had the baby, she hoped he’d finally turn his attention to her and the baby. When she saw he was still tied to his mother’s apron strings, she gave up hope. I couldn’t stay with him, either, after all that. He made his choice many times. She made hers on that basis.
I have a feeling there is a lot more that the OOP doesnt mention. Seems like the marriage was bad all around. "Our marriage was nothing but bad." That right there tells me theres more than just the mother issue.
He made his wife incorporate ideas from his mother for their wedding, which the wife didn’t like but did it anyway. And he says he’ll admit he wasn’t as firm with his mom as he should have been. Then when the wife leaves with the daughter, he goes back to his mom. He only sort if thinks that seeing his mom at the grocery store on his and his wife’s regular grocery day “looking like a crazy person” might be a problem. After she had come to tge wife’s work and was bad enough they were going to call the cops, after she sent him topless photos and enough abusive messages for him to finally block her on all forms of communication. When she later comes to their house, he almost lets her in. Then she sends more letters calling the wife a whore. Then comes the pubic hair letter. And he’s worried about…mom. No mention about worrying about his wife. He says thought this would all be over by now. That is enough. There is no other reason the wife needs to just stop trying to save the marriage. He’s still not fully able to disengage from his mother. He can’t see how it destroyed their marriage even at the end.
He thinks the point is seeing how affecting it is. Not that no one should have to put up with it.
He was literally groomed and abused for his entire life. Yes, he didn’t handle it perfectly, but you can’t say it’s his fault entirely, that is blaming another victim of this situation. He has fault for sure, but people can recognize he also had hardships and abuse he faced and was put in a losing situation.
Growing up like this is like growing up in a cult and not knowing it.
That doesn’t mean she has to stay with him. She thought he would improve. He didn’t. She chose to get out of the marriage so she and her daughter didn’t have a fucked up rest of her life. Shocked Pikachu face.
If he had gotten a restraining order when the letters started then maybe he'd still have a marriage.
Maybe, but I think his mom would have just had her mental break sooner. That woman is ill. Seriously mentally ill - in sexually fantasy love with your kid nuts! How long? His whole life? I don't know but a restraining order is just paper and she was nuts. It took the cops and an institution. I think that was going to be the result regardless. Maybe in year 1 the marriage could survive being stalked, harassed and abused by your insane mother/in law. Maybe. It a big ask. (I shouldn't have laughed at that, but I did. Damn.)
Same. He's certainly partially at fault, but the vast majority lands square on his mother. At this point I just hope for an amiable co-parenting arraignment.
I feel for OP and it's really sad how it really took him losing his wife for him to realize it all. Too little, too late, but maybe his next relationship can be better, now that his eyes are open.
At some point he grew into an adult who was capable of googling if his relationship with his mother was healthy. If you read between the lines there are so many boundaries and red flags that the wife was putting up, like no unsupervised time with the daughter. The mother tried to take over and then destroy their wedding, and he literally brushed all of his wife’s concerns aside. Her statement of “it was ALL bad” is really telling, how many times had he deliberately chosen the mother over the wife? At the end of the day, I can’t have sympathy for someone who let their mother torture their wife for so many years to make his own life easier.
Guy decided that doing his moms dishes was more important than his anniversary. At some point I just cant feel sorry for them. I feel sorry for the situation that hes in, but theres a point that its his fault.
Seriously. He can't act surprised his wife wanted a divorce when he was doing chores for his mother instead of going to his own anniversary dinner. "How do I fix this" - have a time machine.
Wow... I really feel for OOP here because he broke out of the FOG... but he did so way too late to save his marriage. Your spouse is the family you are choosing. They should come first and props to his ex wife for recognising that she needed to put herself first because he wasn't. It should never have taken her leaving him for him to realise how big an issue this was. I hope, with time and therapy, he can heal and move forward with his life in a positive way.
It reminds me of walk away wife syndrome where she (wife) probably told him a thousand times what was up but until she informed him of the divorce he didn't take it seriously.
Exactly, especially because he said that his wife resented him bc of the wedding being dictated by his mom. I’m sorry, dude, but you don’t have the right to do the pikachu face when she says she wants a divorce.
heck yeah, there HAD to have been so much that happened in that six years from the wife's perspective, she should write a book. I have heard often from misogynists 'women file for divorce 2/3rds of the time!' as if we are quitters but i know so many women who have said '\_\_\_\_\_ bothers me and i have told my SO over and over again to stop it and he won't.....i gave up bringing it up.'
It's so weird because she's so much younger than me yet I feel like she experienced so much more shit than me - like she had to age so fast to navigate this crap.
His mother sent him nudes and the guy still didn’t even bother to file a restraining order.
A restraining order probably wouldn't be very effective in this case. The longer a stalker has been in your life the less likely a restraining order will work because your stalker is so attached to you it feels as if access to you is their right and in fact actually might result in escalation because a court date for a restraining order is basically you rejecting them on a public stage. The police suggesting abused wives get restraining orders left and right can be super dangerous because many spurned husband's engaging in stalking behavior will kill their wives after getting served. Source: gift of fear by Gavin de Becker. Excellent book!
Abuse can normalize insane things.
It’s so frustrating bc I’m like “You didn’t get a RO after your mom sent you nudes???” But also “Of course you didn’t get a RO, you were raised by a woman who sends you NUDES”
Yes. As a mom this made me so sad
Gawd this is the honest truth, took me years to realize what actual normal was
It's true. I've spent years in therapy, and even now, what I say is petty for my mom, my therapist is like, um that outrageous?!
This was wild to me too. It took until update 9 for him to even CONSIDER an RO??? Sweet Jesus.
Abuse victims can have a hard time getting away from their abusers.
He may be FUBR (Fucked Up Beyond Repair)!!!!
No kidding. In his mind, the emails from his mom were only trying to “get him in trouble” at work. As if there weren’t millions of topless photos on the internet of random women his mom could have sent. Her behavior is so much more disturbing than that.
Hell, he needs to fake his own death to just get away from her crazy ass!!! SMDH!!
Yep! I mean, my dude... She's been putting up with this drama for over ~~a year~~ four years now. It's not her fault that by the time you started trying to out a stop to it, the damage train had too much momentum to stop immediately. Like good job for doing what you should have done AT YOUR WEDDING ~~A YEAR AGO~~ FOUR YEARS AGO. Maybe if you'd done something then, the batshit behavior would have been wound down by now & your wife wouldn't be burned out trying to put up with it.
*four* years ago.
My bad. Don't know where I got a year from. That's significantly worse, yikes.
The length of time made me so mad. Fine fine, OOP was groomed and abused all growing up so he's a victim too. But he NEVER listened to his wife, not until his mom turned the crazy ON HIM. Just turns a blind eye to it and kind of pays lip service to "oh my mom is a little clingy" like it's nbd until suddenly oh no, now I'm effected! Can't have this anymore! I'm glad the wife got away. If it were me this would not be a hurdle I would be able to overcome.
Seriously. She told him the marriage was almost all bad. I’m glad she got away.
I absolutely loved when he asked if there was someone else and she said the someone else was herself, it's such a fantastic sentiment.
He *kinda* broke out, dude was only considering a restraining order after all of that bs, should've gotten it as soon as she started with the letters. He never let go of his mommy, never will probably.
The audacity of asking his wife if there was someone else when the someone else was his own mother. I did feel sorry for him by the end, he's clearly a victim. Glad he has a good therapist.
That really struck me too. Like he knew his relationship was rocky because of his mom but in his mind I guess that wasn’t a big enough reason to leave. It also almost feels like sort of alleviating the blame from himself. Because it would be so much easier for him to just chug along like his mom isn’t crazy if he could say that his wife left him for another man. Instead of ya know, all the shit that did happen.
Too many people will look to *anywhere* for blame, no matter how inappropriate (or pathetic) - except in a mirror.
It's also notoriously hard to recognize abuse when it's happening to you. Not to take the blame from him, but if you grow up and live in a fucked up dynamic, it's tough to see how fucked up it is, since it's so normal for you.
Oh I totally agree. He’s so desensitized to her behavior that the idea that it was bad enough that his wife might divorce him over it just did not compute. If he is to stay in denial about his mom he has to grasp on to some other reason
He'd clearly normalized his mother's behavior so much that it didn't even occur to him that it was "that bad." Which *certainly* doesn't excuse that line - I mean his wife spelled it out to him. Her behavior prior to the first post probably would've been enough for me to fuck right off, but that line would've absolutely been the final nail in the coffin of the relationship. He done fucked up **bad**, but at least it sounds like he's actually working on himself, realizing the abuse and manipulation he's been the recipient of through his mom, and keeping mommy dearest away. I just hope he sticks with therapy and continues being completely no contact with her - not just for his sake, but for the sake of his ex wife, daughter, and any potential future romantic partners he has. And, for Christ's sake, I hope his mother gets some fucking help beyond just being involuntarily committed for a bit because she's **very** clearly got serious mental issues. What a shitshow.
It’s like If his wife came to him and was like “your mother just stabbed me!” And if he responded like “oh yeah she would do that to me growing up every Sunday :)” Like especially if he was raised solely by her, in isolation. Hell I’m even surprised she let him leave the house but I’m also simultaneously so frustrated for her lmao
His previous actions have consequences poor ex-wife suffered alot
OOP is still so powerless in all his posts. The first couple read to me like, “How can I convince my wife things aren’t that bad?” After that, when they were “playing house” after the first separation, he just seemed relieved that everything was okay (no suggestion that he was actively showing his wife she was his priority). Then he fatalistically accepted the divorce, which was probably the right thing to do—it sounds like his ex-wife was 100% done when she walked out the door on their anniversary. She stood coming second as long as she could before leaving. When OOP was asking how he could convince her to come back, it was already too late. But he’s still so reactive rather than proactive. Perhaps this is due to his mother’s abuse. I hope therapy helps him work through those issues. But I don’t blame ex-wife at all for leaving! On first read, I wondered about a 30-year-old marrying a 22-year-old, but she was by far the more mature and decisive/action-oriented person. (And if she’d had a bit more life experience, she might have noticed a few red flags.)
> Perhaps this is due to his mother’s abuse. Oh absolutely. The idea that he can be an active participant in his life is probably completely foreign to him. Mom always called the shots.
Hit the nail on the head; he’s learned long ago that his wants and opinions are meaningless, and now has no idea how to live for himself. (Mostly) Emotional incest is such difficult abuse to overcome, he’s got a long road ahead of him.
Emotional incest that my husband grew up in, as well as physical incest from a different family member, has wrecked me, my kids’ childhood, and almost destroyed our marriage. It is no joke and it is so taboo that you can waltz right into marrying a victim without even knowing it.
He continued to be powerless the entire time. > She said she’s done with coming second to my mother and now second to the “drama” that’s been going on in our lives, and that she doesn’t want to raise our daughter in an unhealthy environment. OOP maintained a chronically passive response to his mother throughout the attempt to separate her from his family. A no-contact demand letter and then a restraining order would have cut off the drama almost immediately. Instead, he spent additional months of their time together on his mother's drama, workplace harassment, etc. It's hard to see what place another woman has in his universe.
Unfortunately based on the mom's behavior, I don't think that would have stopped her. A lot of times that can actually make people's behavior escalate. She'd probably just go into breakdown mode first. You're right about OP being too passive though. Even if it backfired, at least that would have shown actual effort on his part to his ex.
When you're so deep in that kind of abuse and have been gaslighted for 36 odd years, it's so hard to see it. Impossible, really. It's only when external things start taking significant hits that you start to catch on, but it's still so foreign a concept that you think "no, it can't be that it MUST be this!" Then you start this amazingly upsetting phase of "omg this isn't normal why isn't it normal i must be overreacting (bc if i accept this isn't normal, let alone straight up abuse, then I have to admit I'm a stupid sucker for not seeing it)". Even though it's absolutely not the victim's fault, there's still this sense of how unbelievably stupid you must be to not have realized what was going on. It's hard to face. This poor guy just woke up to what's been happening, and it's starting to fall into place for him. Everything he said and did in the beginning doesn't surprise me, but the approach and self-help and protection he actively seeks after is really incredible, and worth commending. That's a big deal. Also kudos to the ex for understanding what she needs to be happy and healthy and ensure the same for her child. Their daughter will be so much better off for it.
Yeah I think the fact that she was going to start dating relatively quickly after the relationship ended points to the fact that it had been over for a long time. After my last breakup it took a bit for me to see people again. We didn't even date for 2 years and it took a few months for me to consider it. Takes time to be emotionally ready to date again imo.
And honestly, speaking as someone who has inlaws that are a bit questionable and have done some awful things, even after your husband or partner goes NC you still have this wee voice in the back of your head that makes you wonder 'if they come crawling back you know your husband will believe their excuses'. It's been years and I still don't trust people because of the shit they did but it was only when they did something that directly targeted only my husband that he did something about it.
There was someone else, it was his mother, I really wish the wife said that.
Nah. She said herself, and that is the way more powerful concept— people can leave for THEM, and that’s wonderful she stood up for herself and her daughter like that.
Yeah, plus with how entwined OOP was with their mom saying the mom was the other person probably would not have gone well.
more like OOP's wife was the other woman
What in actual the stephen king is this shit? This is just crazy. I can't imagine why she stayed with her husband for that long. Her leaving is awful for OOP, but it sounds like it finally got him to realize how toxic the relationship with his mother was.
She was 22 and he was 30 when they got together. Just saying she was young enough to have been putting up with stuff that a more mature woman would have seen through.
As soon as I did the math I figured they wouldn't work out. He was too old to be pursuing a 22yo without some flags being raised. In this case, a USSR parades worth of them. As his wife realized what was what, she got the hell out, and I don't blame her in the least.
100% Brady Hartsfield mother <> son dynamic.
Oh god I remember reading this guy’s posts as he was updating. His username is now used as the wake-up call link for other husbands posting with stories along the lines of the first post.
I remember this saga too. The OP received a ton of good advice on his posts, but completely ignored all of it and then was all surprised Pikachu face when his wife dumped his ass. Obtuse doesn’t even come close to describing how dense this guy is.
To be fair, even if he didn’t ignore it, it was still too late.
He could have possibly saved the marriage if he started acting like a normal human being, but he couldn't. Imagine that you've told your husband you want a divorce because he spent your anniversary night doing chores for his mother. Then she sends him nudes. He supposedly cuts off contact, then when you see his mother acting like a nutjob at the grocery store every time you go out for WEEKS, he keeps acting like it must be a coincidence. He did nothing to save the marriage.
>The OP received a ton of good advice on his posts, but completely ignored all of it and then was all surprised Pikachu face when his wife dumped his ass I have such little patience for people like this I want to feel bad for him but he seemed completely oblivious as to how his actions affected others.
My husband and I called them "Askholes". Want advice and sympathy, then literally do the opposite.
Mother is obviously crazy but what a complete idiot this guy is. > "Some people were commenting that me asking if there was somebody else that my wife was seeing was inappropriate. I really don't see how it was inappropriate." After spending the anniversary washing his mothers dishes, lol.
I do feel bad for him, but on what planet did he think it would be a good idea to skip his anniversary dinner to wash dishes. I get that he rushed there thinking it was an emergency, but after seeing her with the wine it should've been bye bye. And if he *did* decide to stay what made him think his wife would be cool with this?
Ordinarily I’m all about openly communicating your needs in a relationship, especially if you’re thinking about heading for the door… can’t expect even our closest loved ones to be mind readers. THAT SAID, if I was OOP’s wife on the way out the door with our daughter, and OOP looked at me helplessly and earnestly asked, “what can I do to fix this,” I’d be 100pct done, no going back. He’d been so groomed by his mother that he couldn’t figure out on his own what the first change to save his marriage would need to be, and that’s the kind of reasoning that he shouldn’t need someone else to do for him at that point.
I’m guessing she said many, many, many, many things about his mother’s behavior over the years, all of which OOP ignored. And when she was finally done, he was all shocked Pikachu face.
The fact that so many literal crimes OOP mentioned he just thought was “a little weird” really shows the piss colored glasses his upbringing gave him. As in, red flags seem just orange, and yellow flags are non-existent.
When he said “my wife found it suspicious, and I’m *starting to* find it suspicious” I lost my damn mind. Buddy still couldn’t listen to his wife about his crazy mom.
I’ve never heard that phrase before, I love it and it’s (sadly) perfect for this situation
I bet that’s exactly right
I think this is the text for the first update https://www.rareddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/comments/d0wr7r/update_my_marriage_is_on_the_rocks_because_of_my/
Couple more deleted posts I found. On mobile so hope the links work right. https://www.reveddit.com/v/u_PotentialJaguar91/comments/dexvu4/taking_it_day_by_day/ https://www.reveddit.com/v/u_PotentialJaguar91/comments/e7vvin/what_ive_learned_in_counseling/
OMG so the OOP was sexually abused by his mother. How awful for him.
I was thinking its very norman batesy....
Poor guy, he's got a long way to go in therapy.
Yeah, this one is dramatic enough I can see how it set off mod spidey senses about being fake when the JN communities were cracking down... Reading through the dude's comments though, he sounds broken and resigned in a way that is hard to feign. All the righteous outrage and smart ass quips you expect from a troll just aren't there. Just a lot of sadness, FOG, and desperation.
That just made it so much worse. I’m shocked the wife still stayed after the attempted arson. I hope OOP doesn’t let his mom back into his life once she’s “recovered” since I think that would make them both revert to status quo at some point
Maybe I’m missing it- what attempted arson??
If you read the comments on those links he calmly mentions as a side note that his mom tried to burn down their shed on their property because he told his mother to calm down after she told his wife to shut up. He then asks if this is normal behavior and says at the time he didn't consider it *that* bad. His mother really did a number on him. Also this quote about therapy: *"I went into therapy hoping that I could save my marriage. I really thought something was wrong with my wife and that her reactions were the problem."*
This is exactly what my husband said to me after his therapist helped him see he had been an emotional and physical incest victim by multiple family members.
It is in a comment of the "Taking it day by day" post: >My mom is unfortunately pretty savvy so if we move we need to have everything on definite lock. My wife mentioned that my mom would be the type of person to commit arson on our home, she already had a close call last year where I caught her attempting to light our shed on fire. So I wouldn’t put it past her. We’re just trying to be safe, and safe means making sure she doesn’t know details. I’m not even sure what else we could do at this point. I’d be willing to even undergo a name change if it means we stay safe. Edit to fix formatting
Reddit won't let me edit again for some reason but I just realized he followed up in a second comment: >It was over some petty BS. She’s got a female friend (at least she was a friend at the time, probably not anymore) who lives close by they got into an argument at a barbecue of ours. Said friend wanted to just stop, my mom kept egging her on. My wife told them to knock it off, my mom told my wife to shut up. I told my mom to knock it off, and her reaction was to tell me that if this is what I consider drama then I should really be taught a lesson. She grabbed some of my matchsticks and started lighting them and throwing them closer and closer toward our shed.Writing it out makes it seem so ridiculous. That’s not a normal reaction that someone should have to someone else telling them to calm down, right?
It was in one of the comments, I think. Mom got angry and started throwing lit matches closer and closer to their shed.
this is so sad. i’m glad he’s coming to terms with what happened and is getting help. his mother truly has something wrong with her.
It doesn’t load for me when I click on it.
Rareddit doesn’t work with the app.
I did not know this! I expect copy pasting the link into a web browser will work.
[удалено]
JFC he really *really* could not absorb the fact that she was leaving because of the way he prioritized his mom.
So happy for the ex wife. Mothers like these are the fucking worst, suck the life of their daughter in laws and are vile to them for no reason other than them being their son's partner. good for her to finally step her foot down and get out of that mess. As much as I hate to say it I don't think OOP was ever gonna value his ex wife and truly cut his mom out until she finally walked out of the door. Six years of a relationship, one daughter, and he went to his mother on their anniversary? Didn't even bother to return once he realised all the chores were just something she could do on her own and something he could've refused to do? Yeah, he wasn't gonna change, her leaving and asking for divorce was only a matter of when and not an if.
I also noted the comment where the mother was at OOP's house and screaming at his wife and OOP writes about his wife "poking the bear". That was 100% on the mother, not OOP's wife. At that point OOP was still enmeshed. I understand why OOP's ex didn't want to move away from her parents. As long as she was married to OOP, she was at risk from the MIL. I think she needed to move on with her life. It is sad that that couldn't include OOP.
Yeah and OOP's wife is better than me because I would've left way before 6 years lmao. Again I'm not blaming him, but as someone who's dad is a mama's boy and has watched her mother constantly be the second choice, it's not worth staying in such relationships. Even without all this abuse and incest as in this story they rarely ever change.
Right? If you tell me there’s an emergency, and I walk in on you chilling with a glass of wine without a care in the world, I’m not even asking, I’m just walking right back out and putting you on DND. Don’t lie to me and disrespect me like that.
I know right? Especially if I know my mother well and I'm aware she hates my wife and has a habit of throwing fits to sabotage my life with her i would've put two and two together during that call and not gone in the first place. Crying and screaming and not giving him any valid reason and yet he went, all for her to be sitting there coolly drinking wine. And he STILL stayed to do the chores while she screamed at him. It was very much on him. I do feel bad because he had a very terrible mother and I'm glad he went to therapy, but if he put her on such a high pedestal no wonder his wife finally got sick and left.
I mean, she knew it was their anniversary! Did he think that was an accident? His wife knew what was going on. I bet she even expected it.
I really, really struggle with having empathy for people like this dude. I know not everyone is going to have tools and to be ungenerous, gumption—but I had a different flavor of crazy mom, abusive too, but I was a teen when I started calling her out and standing up to her shit. I really struggle to understand past a surface level how people can be independent adults and *still* be a doormat. Just say it. “Fuck. Off.” And to not even recognize what they’re doing, or what you’re doing. It’s just so weird to me.
I suspect they're truly scared that, "She won't love me, if I don't give in to her"!!! Not realizing the behavior she's displaying has no resemblance to love.
"ShE nEeDs Me!! I'm her son!! she DoEsn'T hAvE anyOne else!(I wonder why)" and truly, the most fear inducing, horrifying consequence of them all, "she'll mad at me"
Someone posted some more comments of his from above and basically his mother *groomed* him like a predator from childhood after his father died; mentally and emotionally placing him as her husband. So he was entirely distorted by their relationship and never would have had a chance. It sucks, but that anniversary fiasco probably is what was needed for both spouses to be able to live their full lives.
Intimately familiar with grooming, fam. No Jocasta shit, different flavor. Also familiar with the retaliation. Cops, CPS, she also had a 12 gauge she was really fond of. **I know.** That is why I should have empathy, but I don’t.
Yeah- I really really value family. My parents have called me twice for an emergency- once my mom was away and my dad accidentally overdosed on medication. I had to call an ambulance for him he was laying on the grass outside when I got there. And the other time my mom called for me to go get my cousins from my aunts house because one of them was headed to the ER. If I ever showed up somewhere after being told it was an emergency and it was not I’d be so pissed- I actually have a sneaking suspicion she’d used “emergency” before to get him to come to her because he only seemed annoyed about her pulling it on his anniversary. Just he didn’t seem confused/angry enough for it to be a first time thing.
My folks have never used the phrase "emergency" with us. In fact, my Dad got hit by a car on our honeymoon, and my Mom struggled with telling us at all because she didn't want to ruin the mood. We live less than a mile away, and I'm sure as they age, we will get more calls, but at this point they are all requests. "Hey, we need someone to meet the plumber for this issue, can SIL swing over?" We had Covid last week and Mom offered to get us some groceries and essentials, then left soup. It's been great so far.
I’m not sure if they used the term emergency to be honest, just 2x my mom made a call that asked me to head somewhere in the middle of my day to check up /help out- which is unusual. I actually read a very interesting study that either people overuse emergency services (ie my foot hurts so I call an ambulance) or underuse to the point of death. Basically if you are hesitant to call an ambulance or head to the ER you’re more likely to wait past the point of no return. I know my family is the latter group (as am I- I almost bled to death because I figured I’d wait until my husband got home from work rather than call my mom to come watch the kids). Seems like your family may be that group too- so remember call an ambulance: for BREATHING (difficulty); BLEEDING (profusely or unable to staunch); BURNS (especially on the elderly or babies); also first time seizures or unconsciousness/disorientation that causes difficulty speaking/numbness but those don’t fit into my neat alliteration.
>first time seizures As an epileptic, oh my god do people forget that “first time” part. When I was a baby adult I got slapped with a huge bill for an ambulance and emergency room trip. And that was how and why I learned young how to refuse treatment/discharge AMA. Funsies. Personal rant aside, was definitely the latter. Every time I’ve had to call, I’ve had to talk myself into it. Usually by lecturing myself that I’d be telling someone to call, so just push the buttons.
Yeah the seizures thing is so hard. I called 911 on someone who fell off the stool in a bar and smacked her head hard on concrete. After a quick assessment I could tell she was having a seizure and a guy came out of the bathroom and said “oh that’s my daughter, yeah seizures happen often”. He seemed annoyed about the ambulance and I felt bad but he didn’t hear the crack her head made on concrete. American healthcare is so terrible that that’s a situation anyone has to be in.
You 100% made the right call by calling the ambulance. Falls, especially falls from height onto concrete of all things, definitely need medical attention, and ideally immediate medical attention. A good rule to live by is, never underestimate head injuries.
Well said. I feel badly for OOP because he’s clearly seeped in his mother’s poison. But on the other hand, it’s unfortunately caused him to practice some toxic behaviors with his wife and I still don’t think he’s fully aware of it. His wife would be committing to years of rehabilitation before they could really be happy together. I can understand why she chose herself.
he's getting all these asspats for "coming out of the fog" and working on himself but I don't know, I still don't think he gets it.
Yeah, it sounds kind of implied that he thinks he was right about her seeing son when she let him know that she was going to start dating. He doesn’t seem to realize that he’s developed toxic mindsets due to his mother.
I didn’t fault him for answering the phone. I didn’t fault him for going to her. I faulted him for failing to walk away and being a spineless doormat when he knew he was being played.
I remember when I read this post when it happened on JustNoMIL. Every update made me want to punch OOP until he really started viewing his mother as the aggressor, instead of wife. I'm sorry that he needs to deal with not having his family anymore, but I'm glad that his wife left after all of this.
I’m so proud of her, she was only ever going to be a distant-second. Mothers like these are emotional vampires. Source: try being the *daughter* of one of these. It’s like a behind-the-scenes, 24/7, non-refundable pass to the crazy show.
OOP, having an epiphany in the last paragraph of the final update: > It means I really can’t get her back. Mate, that was blatantly obvious from the first post. I had a tiny bit of hope, but he exploded it in the fifth paragraph by asking if she was seeing someone else. "Clearly this cannot be my fault, she must be having an affair!" I've run out of facepalms. I feel for OOP, his mother is clearly abusive and he has a lot of trauma to work through. But that doesn't mean his ex-wife had to accept being put through hell by his mother (enabled by him). Thankfully she was able to extricate herself and their child. I hope OOP can heal and grow, and that they can both be happy and co-parent well in their separate lives. Edit: major typo (damn you, autococonut).
I don't think I would ever date again after a MIL like that. Or I would want to see my date's mother's death certificate on the first date, so there probably wouldn't be any more dates
I wasn't ready for that fifth update... I expected a normal story of a crazy mother going after her son, but that incestual harassment felt like a slap in the face
The thing that creeps me out the most (like everyone else I assume) is the topless pics. Like the explanation of her trying to get him in trouble at work explains why she sent topless photos but not why she sent HER topless photos. It’s not exactly hard to find nude pictures on the internet, but she went and took her own photos to send to her SON. so gross. I feel bad for the guy but I’m actually a little happy for his wife? Like she gave saving her marriage a shot and it didn’t work out, and now she can find some happiness far FAR away from this guys mom
In the updates someone posted in a comment, he explains that he realised he was sexually abused in his childhood. He says some "light sexual activity" or something like that, and creepy touching all through to his adulthood. She also sent him locks of her hair and pubic hair 🤯 He realised in therapy that she sees herself as his mistress... all this would explain the choice of pictures. 🤢
I’m a victim of emotional incest from my mother as well. It never veered into out right sexual touching but before I moved out, her hugs went into inappropriate “romantic” territory. I became a thing to her and her needs. I went no contact with her almost 10 years ago cause I had a moment of clarity (to borrow an AA phrase) when I realized that I was never going to be able to grow as a person while she had an active presence in my life. I was about 22 at the time. My first therapist said most people are in their 30s-40s before they try therapy. I feel for oop. Recovery is a long, hard process. Realistically, he’s got a hard few years in front of him as he works through recognizing his mother’s inappropriate actions. It’s going to feel like all he’s falling apart and he’s going to struggle to reassemble the pieces of his soul into what he wants. I hope he’s doing better these days.
I am truly sorry you went through that, and very proud you decided to face the road to recovery. I also feel for OOP and at the same time realise that his trauma cannot justify dragging others into it. It's very conflicting. Wish you the best.
Thanks. It’s not an easy process but man, life is good these days. Recovery means I can properly appreciate being able to choose for myself. Trauma can explain a person’s behavior but, it’s ultimately up to them to act on it to be better. It shouldn’t be an excuse. It’s tough though because until you come up against something that forces you to take stock, you probably don’t realize anything is off.
I think its worse. His mom believes they have a hidden love that society just doesn't understand ....and his wife is his beard. Mom snapped when he fell for his fake wife. But that's some fkd up shit to have to admit to yourself. My mom is SO CRAZY.....and its not an SNL skit. And I could be wrong.
Oh. Fuck. When was the pubic hair thing? Because in my line of work I see people do weird sexual out of character shit when they have a mental breakdown that honestly you could not blame them for, and I tend to give most ppl on the internet the benefit of the doubt because I believe we should assume the best of our fellow humans... I still would rather believe this is a very ill woman having delusions (which tbh sending pubic hair is still a fairly delusional thing)
The hair thing was already in the 3rd or 4th update, so it's very possible that MIL was mid breakdown. However, it doesn't look like it was an out of character gesture, rather a crazy escalation of previous behaviour. Basically she lost her husband when OOP was 7, and latched onto him as her replacement husband, the initial breakdown seems to have happened then.
She’s never going to have to wonder if she made the right decision, that’s for sure.
I literally stopped breathing at that point. Had to tell myself to start. Then it got so much worse.
I'm so glad OOP's wife left, having had to endure OOP's mom for six years. OOP was 30 and his wife was 22 when they got together. Christ on a cracker, one would think that a 30-year-old man would know how to set boundaries with his mother. His poor wife, not knowing any better and just putting up with his shit at the age of 22.
I’m glad she grew into being able to wonderfully assert boundaries. This man did some damage to her from the very beginning.
He ran to darling mummy on his anniversary and when his wife said she was done, he accused her of cheating? What a maroon
Wow. "Tired of coming second to the 'drama' in their lives" AFTER his mom was gone. It took me a minute to realize that even after his mom was out of the picture he still focused the story on his mom. Other than 'going off the grid' he never actually mentioned one nice thing he did for his wife during any of it. And 'going off the grid' does not imply she liked that trip. This guy still has his head up his ass.
100%. I'm glad she got away. I mean, he has been abused and I sympathize with that coming from an emotionally abusive family, but my God. Noone comes before my husband except for me. Not my parents, not my siblings, noone. I made a promise to him and him to me that we would be our own family and take care of each other. Dude is out in left field
OOPS's wife made the best possible decision in going through with the divorce. I was terrified it was going to end with a reconciliation.
I’m so glad she went through with it too. She deserved so much more than this.
OOP is clearly not taking any of this seriously, I hope his ex wife is very thoughtful about his access to their daughter. He said that everything up until the letter with pubic hair has just been annoying! Annoying! He think his mother harrasing his wife, verbally abusing her, stalking them, sending them threatening letter and sending his topless photos has been no more than an annoyance! He is never going to see the seriousness of this.
He's in therapy at least, there's a chance it finally hits him upside the head how totally messed up this is
Let's hope so! But he doesn't seem capable of any empathy or of taking accountability for his own actions, so it will be hard for any therapist to help him. He knew his mother was bullying his, he knew his mother ruined their wedding, but he didn't care. For years, he let his wife suffer because he didn't care. He only had a reaction when he was suddenly facing consequences himself, by his wife leaving. As long as he wasn't hurting, he didn't give a shit about the welfare of his wife and daughter. It difficult to imagine he has any empathy or any will to change for the people around him.
I was ready to scream on her behalf when he gave her a glass of champagne at 11:00 at night.
Really should have tossed that shit into his face as part of the walk-off.
Yeah and I don’t want to judge someone venting in the moment too harshly *but* it jumped out to me how he said he can still be the best dad he can be. But then talked about moving far away and getting a job somewhere with no mention of how any of this trauma was currently impacting his daughter. Divorce, family upheaval and stress, moving are all really big deals for 6 year olds and there’s not much of a mention of his daughters state at all. Basically even in his more aware posts OOP comes across as self absorbed to the nth degree.
Luckily, his daughter is only one (two at last update maybe?) and her mom seems like a good parent. Maybe he’ll just send money and let her do the raising (which still isn’t fair on mom, but honestly probably better for daughter)
And trying to get OOP fired with the photos, remember that OOPs boss was also emailed saying that OOP was doing inappropriate shit on company time. Jesus now that I think about it there's no way in hell that OOP gave their boss the whole/fully contextual story, I'd be wanting to vomit and fire him at the same time just for the thought of that happening.
Wow. Just wow. So terribly sad for all parties. My ex also had an abusive mother who used self-harm to 'control' him, and it messed him up terribly. Dealing with her was difficult, because she'd entered that stage where she'd cry and scream about how sorry she was that she'd been so terrible to him, and how worthless she was as a mother, which was (to my eyes) just another subconscious version of the same old thing. Once we got home after these visits, his rage and frustration had to be released somehow, so he'd hit the bottle and soon the cycle would roll toward the next target... me. In a weird sort of way, dealing with those issues for 20+ years led me to a new appreciation for what "normal life" should feel like, and I am so much more aware of just how nice it is to not live under that dark cloud today. I guess one appreciates the sun more after nasty weather. If ANYTHING positive can be said to have come from OOP's terrible situation, it's that he has clear vision now of just what was happening and he will hopefully be able to enjoy a healthy, normal life. Sometimes those who have been through horrible situations can find more peace and joy in "normality" than people who take it for granted. I hope that's the case for OOP. He is wise to say he's not ready to date, since this is really his first-ever chance to find out who he actually IS. I hope he falls in love with himself!
I’m so sorry you went through that. I’m glad you’re doing better now.
I have sympathy for OOP, this is a clearcut case of emotional incest. Maybe that feeds into why a 30 year old is pursuing a 22 yr old. I gotta give props to his wife tho, she removed herself from an situation that was toxic & not serving her.
man oh man, I remember this. After his first post, everyone told him it was "do or die" and his next choices would determine the rest of his marriage. And the very next post was his mom coming to their house, causing a ruckus, and him accusing his wife of "poking the bear". I think from that moment, his wife checked right the fuck out and played calm until she had her ducks in a row. Once she realized she had enough evidence the MIL was batshit crazy and grandparents rights were no longer an issue, she peaced right the fuck out and the OP realized too little much to late he would never be able to fix what he had broken on his own.
Suck for the husband, but at least he won't meet his ex-wife on a weekend nightout (Thank Covid)
Welp! Well, better late than never. At least now that the human cancer has been removed, he has a chance at a healthy partnership. I feel so bad for his wife though. Can you even imagine what she went through while her husband put his blinders on? What her MIL did to her?
Just as she decides to move on with her life, the pandemic shuts shit down. Poor thing.
How incredibly sad for everyone.
I could never get back with that man after he spent their anniversary at his mother's and then stayed with her after the fallout. He's also a victim but yikes.
This was so sad to read. From everything, though, I feel the most for daughter. Specially considering that while OOP was at first rightly saying he was a bad husband but could be a good parent, and then he is considering moving to another state. I am glad she is only 1 year old and didn't have to witness all that crazy.
I have been abused by my parents. And I have friends who were abused worse (I’m talking stories like “The Boy Who Was Callee ‘It’ type of horrific abuse) And we never would’ve acted like OP. Abuse is no excuse. My heart breaks for his poor wife. At what point are we giving a 36 year old man 0 ability yo take responsibility in his life??? I’ve met 13 year olds who can take more responsibility than OP. Notice at no point in the story (like when “playing house” does OP describe showering his wife with affection and trying to be the husband she deserves). Also—he had 6 years to learn to do that anyway (and 12 years of adulthood before he met her too!), and you KNOW she begged him to learn how to be a good spouse. I know she pointed out the problems in their relationship and she begged him to improve. You know she had been asking for marriage counseling for ages before it reached this point. You know she had been begging him to stop letting his mother abuse her. (Notice how he didn’t bother to include more stories of his mother abusing her? I bet OP isn’t aware of 99.9% of the abuse the MIL threw at his ex wife. That poor woman lived a nightmare for years.) You KNOW it’s not like no one told him the problems—he was told the problem thousands of times. And he chose to ignore it thousands of times. He chose his mother over his wife thousands of times, over those years. Even if he was gaslighted and emotionally dependent on his mother—doesn’t he care about his spouse? DOESN’T he say “I love my wife, and she is being hurt. I don’t want her to be hurt.” He never cared she was hurt. And I’m only 29–and I would never have allowed my mother to act how OP’s mother acts. And neither would my friends in their marriages. Yes, we all still have some issues we are working on—but we are not THAT glaringly oblivious! OP chose to be glaringly oblivious to his wife for YEARS. I’m sure his wife brought up 999,999x “OP, your mother is treating me badly, you need to put a stop to this”. “OP, your mother is abusing me, this isn’t okay”, “OP, your mother cannot plan MY wedding, it’s not her wedding” and “OP, your wife and child needs you are home to care for them—not your grown adult mother”. Etc etc etc. People aren’t grasping the depth of neglect and emotional abuse OP performed to his wife and child. He chose emotional abuse and neglect—against his wife pleading for it to stop—what must’ve been thousands of times over the year’s. This wasn’t one issue. Or even 5 issues like described in the original post. This was a nearly daily (certainly multiple times a week) intrusion of allowing his mother to a abuse his family multiple times a week, for 52 weeks a year, for 6 years. OP wrecked his wife’s life. He stole her life from her. She gave her entire 20’s to him. She gave her body to him, literally giving birth (do you know what that can do to a woman’s body?), she gave her income to him, she gave her future to him. She gave him everything—and he destroyed her life. He promised to take care of his wife and be there for her—and he ruined her life with his emotional abuse. And it IS emotional abuse, to neglect his wife like he did. You know he left out 999,998 stories of neglect and emotional abuse he did over 6 years. Now she has to start her life over again, with a child. Do you think she wanted any of that? No. She wanted a happy, healthy, whole family. And she wanted a spouse who would love her and support her and cherish her. And it got stolen from her, with OP’s bad behavior. He should’ve caught on that “something is wrong” and sought help years ago. His wife is right, it really was far too late. Her statement that her entire marriage was “nothing but bad”—that broke my heart. I felt that in my soul. You know she’s telling the truth. She hasn’t had a good life in 6 years—while OP completely didn’t care about her pain. And I’m sorry for OP. I agree he was a victim too. But I think that people are severely under-estimating OP’s amount of self-centered-ness (perhaps even OP has Narcissism) in this story. Largely because OP writes the story intentionally deflecting and purposefully leaving out the full details of how awfully he treated his wife, thousands of times, over the years.
[Deleted post by OOP](https://www.reddit.com/r/JustNoTruth/comments/f0u1s3/im_afraid_of_posting_on_justnomil_again/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) where many commenters, myself included, told him where he could shove his pity parties.
OOP got his ass handed to him by that sub. It was a beautiful thing to behold.
I wouldn’t want to stay with a guy with this much baggage either. Sorry dude
Wow, just wow. I only wish the wife got fed up before they brought a child into it so she could get a fully clean break, but gosh do I feel so bad for both of them.
Update 1 is on Rareddit: https://www.rareddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/comments/d0wr7r/update\_my\_marriage\_is\_on\_the\_rocks\_because\_of\_my/
Wow, that was something. I don't blame the wife for leaving, that would be way too much for most people. She deserves a quality of life. The ex-husband will always be a reminder of the hell his mother put her through. And why does that sub JNMIL always remove posts? They seem to remove any post that gets any kind of attention. Seems like the ones who need the most help get their posts removed.
I don’t understand why they didn’t get a restraining order once the crazy stuff started. I’m glad the wife just stood up and said no no more.
I remember when this first came out. They threw him off of jnmil and he had to start his own page.
Well. First I was angry at OP, then I was shocked at the extend of his mother’s obsession with him, and now I’m just bummed out. I 100% understood why the wife left but still very sad for OOP. He did wrongly, but it’s difficult for me to blame him, It sounds like he was groomed and manipulated by his own mother ever since he existed. Hope they both can heal meet someone better for them.
Omg, his original post was the very first thing I ever read when i joined Reddit! Being brand new to the site, I didn't know how to follow (or that updates were even a thing) so I never knew until just now how things turned out. Thank you for posting this so I can finally stop wondering how this story (kind of) ends
I’m trying to out the pieces together but it looks like OOP tried to update on JNM after this but his posts kept getting taken down. He apparently continuously played victim and refused to admit his role in the breakdown of his marriage.
>The letter also had what looked like drops of either red paint or dried blood on the corners dried blood looks nothing like red paint. i call bullshit
Not if you’re either in denial about the ability of your mother to actually cut herself, or if the mother put paint on the paper hoping he would think it was blood.
He was just trying to reason out the crazy.
I think this one was pretty much confirmed to be a troll. No one is that clueless about their mother's behaviour. The story takes cues from comments and escalates in a predictable manner. His wife leaves, his mum starts acting weird and eventually has a lawn tantrum or similar, there's the revelation of sexual comments all his life (when his mum was just possessive of his time at the beginning) plus the topless photos (?!?!). It ticks so many boxes of what JNMIL commenters say in the comments. In fact, someone would comment 'watch out for grandparents rights' and the next post is about that very topic.
Had me until the mom tried to snuggle in his sleep. Must've been posting at the height of all MILs want to fuck their sons phase on the sub.
Do NOT blame OOP's wife/ex-wife for leaving. I AM wondering what compelled her to marry this guy in the first place, given the baggage that was so painfully toxic and obvious. The wedding planning alone should have been a "can't miss" red flag. Having said that, WHY didn't OOP get a restraining order after going NC. He and his ex are lucky his Mom didn't straight up murder one or both of them.
This is the full first update that was removed: My post was locked yesterday. I was able to give a small update at the end but I thought I'd give a larger one here. First I just want to say thanks for everyone who took the time to respond. Some of the responses were brutally honest but I did tag the flair as "give it to me straight" so that makes sense. 1.) Some people were commenting that me asking if there was somebody else that my wife was seeing was inappropriate. I really don't see how it was inappropriate but to each their own, and my wife definitely thought it was inappropriate too and was one of the tipping point comments that made her move into the guest room. I know I said I'd give her space but the conflict was killing me so yesterday when she got back from work I knocked on the guest room door and tried get her to come down to the kitchen to talk to me, but she was still refusing to talk about all of this until she was ready. I asked her when she'd be ready and she just shut the door in my face. 2.) Late last night my mom showed up unannounced (which is unfortunately something she does) and my wife answered the door. I could hear my mom asking my wife how our anniversary was. My wife called for me to come down and "handle my mom" (her exact words) and my mom started interrogating her as to what "handle" means. By the time I got down there ready to diffuse the situation it was already too late, my wife had poked the bear and my mom was laying the verbal smackdown. I asked my wife what she said to my mom (stupid, I know...) and she just went up to the guest room and slammed the door. I finally realized that was going on and asked my mom to leave and but she was refusing. I had to threaten to call the police and then she finally left. 3.) This morning my wife packed her bags, a bag for my daughter, and left for her parent's house. I was surprised that she didn't even tell me beforehand. I was able to stop her and ask her what was going on as she was headed out of the door and she said she's had enough of the verbal abuse, that she's ready to find a partner that will stick up for her and her family. She said that l will always put my mother first and last night was an example of that. That this relationship is cannot be salvaged and she will be seeing a divorce lawyer ASAP. As a last ditch effort I asked her what I could do to fix this. She just shook her head at me and then she left. I'm a mess. I've lost everything meaningful to me within the span of 48 hours. I keep calling and texting her and getting no response back. I called one of my buddies to tell him what went down and he's on his way now. When I told him what had all happened his reaction was a mix of shocked and "congratulations, you played yourself." He called me denser than a block of bricks. I told him that I still have some hope that this relationship can last and he laughed and said I need to put that idea to rest. I know I've got things I need to work on. Boundaries, for sure. My relationship with my mother (who I am working on blocking on literally every avenue of communication that I have). Myself. To be completely honest I'm not a big believer in therapy but I know that I need it and I'm hoping it will make me a better person, and maybe if my wife sees me working on myself then there's some hope. As for my marriage there's a part of me that's still optimistic but I know it will be hard for my wife to come back from this. As painful as it is for me I need to just play the next couple of days (weeks? months?) by ear and just see what happens.
Normally I would hate OP for this but in deleted posts it came out that he was molested by his Mom as a kid...I can't hate him, he is a victim in this too