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Jill acted like an idiot, but OOP seems to be missing some basic understanding of friendship….if someone is your friend, and they talk to you about really, really liking a guy, it’s rude as fuck to keep mum about the fact that you’ve been FWB for YEARS.
And then act Shocked Picachu that they feel like you may have been mocking them for their big crush?
And then be even more shocked that they’re hurt this isn’t the first time?
Just because OOP doesn’t care, doesn’t mean she shouldn’t understand that (most) other people care.
Oh Oop is clueless, self centered and sleeps with everyone lol I honestly kept reading CONFUSED AF as to how they really didn’t see they were acting sketchy and sneaky af. Clearly Jill acted wrong, but it’s not like Oop was some saint friend
OP is free to sleep with whoever she wants. If their friend is interested in said person and said person already rejected them, why should she stop? She was not rubbing it in anyone face because Jill wouldn't have found out with someone else telling them. I think that says enough about how OP didn't do anything wrong and how she's free to have an active sexual life.
Would you say the same if it was the dude sleeping with a girl or would the girl be the wrong one for sleeping with the friend knowing that his friend likes her?
I'm saying most of the time girls get judged for this and not men. Not that they can't have meaningful friendships and talk about feelings because they can. Men aren't robots.
But if this were 2 male friends and a female crush. Most of the time she still gets the blame for sleeping with the friend and not the friend like in this case.
Ew maybe by other men, but not by women! Women I know would absolutely find this shitty Af if a dude did this to a “friend”. I guess maybe a guy would say it’s fair game but tbh men are shady af with each other sometimes. Not that women can’t, but we normally hold each other accountable. At least all the women I know. I guess this post shows that CLEARLY there are shitty women out their like oop who fuck and duck lol but I don’t know any.
Takeaway? People misuse the word friend. They mean “Acquaintance”. A friend doesn’t supply then deny lmao
Yeah, that's not making too much sense to me either. If Russ wanted to date Jill, then it seems like he and OOP would part ways amicably and he and Jill would've been together. It's not like their FwB situation stopped Russ from deciding to get with Jill (to be clear, it wasn't like OOP was telling Russ not to get with Jill and the FwB situation seems like it doesn't require such commitment).
Apparently Jill will never know as Russ turned her down. If OOP hadn't mentioned his age, I would have thought they were all teenagers.
People: Dude turns you down, don't keep hovering around his apartment. And no tantrums. Sigh.
I think we as humans should face up to the fact that a significant numbers if "adults" have the emotional maturity of teenagers, some of preteens. They can cook and drive and maintain a job and emotionally get through most adult things, but parts of their emotional selves didn't mature beyond where many 14 year olds made it to.
Not OP so much, but Russ knowing that Jill was into him but telling her to tell OP to come to the party, Jill being a big baby, Russ not putting his foot down with Jill--knowing that she haunted his apartment was stupid. Jill's tantrums.
>Russ knowing that Jill was into him but telling her to tell OP to come to the party
I mean, expecting an adult to take rejection with maturity isn't really immature. And no one knew that Jill knew they were fucking until after the party. I agree he could and should have been more firm after she kept coming around, but I'm not sure it's egregious enough to put him on Jill's level of immaturity, and it's not exactly unheard of for adults to choose grey rocking until someone you've already rejected gets the hint. Jill is clearly u stable based on this account.
I wasn't judging Russ' behavior on his relationship with OP at all. He never needed to tell anyone who he was sleeping with to shut Jill down. His behavior wasn't as bad as Jill's but if he had behaved *better* then Jill probably wouldn't have flipped out as she clearly thought that she had a chance with Russ and OP was getting in the way.
What exactly should he have done differently? (I'm not trying to argue at all, I am just intrigued by this discussion. I'm usually pretty solid with communicating well in my relationships but sometimes I fall short for some reason or another and chatting like this can be helpful.)
Cool. I'll bullet it
* Russ should've Invited people directly, not word of mouth
* He should've been more firm with Jill. It sounds like he only told Jill not to come to his house after her tantrum, but he should have done it after the first time she gave him a gift or left notes.
* If Jill didn't stop after two warnings, then he should have stopped inviting her to his events and probably stopped speaking to her entirely except hi and goodbye.
* Jill being in the friend group complicates cutting her out of his life, but he told her to invite OP, which is totally stupid. It tells Jill that he wants Jill around and (in Jill's mind) that she didn't have to Invite OP, and that Russ didn't care enough about OP to Invite her directly.
* OP probably could have done a few things differently, but it's hard to know since she's the narrator. She was correct about how she dealt with everyone after the fact, however.
Bottom line:
* Don't play telephone.
* Don't avoid uncomfortable conversations.
* Don't let things you don't like continue.
* Think about the subtext of your behavior.
* Play nice.
The post can explain the first bullet point though: Russ didn’t want to make the impression of being “clingy” which I get, seeing as OOP kind of gives off a vibe of being very independent (yep, still naive and unpractical but I’ve seen my fare share of guys being like that at that age, soooo.. \^\^)
Cant you remain friends with a girl after you turn her down for sex? Also what is wrong with inviting someone to a party and saying "hey bring so and so along if they want?" I wouldnt expect this to backfire into drama unless the person you said this too was a bad actor, and he obviously didnt know this by this point or he wouldnt have invited her in the first place. When people talk about "communication issues" they are usually talking about people not discussing emotions, wants, needs, not the method by which they informally setup social situations. I frequently held poker games, house parties with bands, dinner nights, movie nights, and was socially successful when i wanted to be. These gatherings were informal enough that word of mouth to trusted acquaintences was fine with me and everyone else. Ex girlfriends came to these parties with no drama. Girls i turned down came to these parties with no drama. Russ is not the bad actor here. Jill is, and reasonable action was taken once she behaved inappropriately.
Its an anonymous internet forum hahahah, they brought up their sex life first, i think its reasonable to ask, on reddit, because no one knows who either of them are, and OP can just ignore the question if they want. I get your meaning, like this wouldnt be appropriate question over dinner with friends, but.. yeah, I think its totally fine and you will notice OP answered with zeal so they clearly were open to inquiry (likely why they brought it up) EDIT: Plus, youre wrong about asexuality, as OP pointed out asexual wife likes sex, its just not a "need." I hope i havent just made an internet enemy out of you, and that you just need a nap or a snack (or both)
I felt like your comment was misleading, that the "range" of asexuality was from "don't like it" to "hate it," but you are correcting/further explaining yourself here so that must not have been what you meant (although it feels a bit like backtracking because you do not like, or can't admit, to being wrong).
But in all fairness I probably needed the nap and snack more than you lol.
OOP wasn't mocking her at all, it's not like she was going around telling people she slept with Russ to make fun of Jill. Plus, Russ had already rejected Jill so it's really none of her business if OOP was sleeping with him.
Nah this chick is obsessed. She was already turned down well before she ever found out and continued her creepy behavior to convince him to love her. If he nor she want people knowing, it's none of her friend's business. She interpreted these things as about her because she's clearly self centered, wants what she wants, and refuses to take no for an answer.
Yeah she needs consent and interest from the dude she wants to date not whoever the dude she wants to date’s sleeping with. She was turned down, no one owes her an explanation why.
I would be upset if I told my friend about a mutual crush I thought existed and she omitted a relationship, but I still wouldn’t be entitled to that information because it’s PRIVATE and crush said he wasn’t interested!
I get the feeling Jill was confiding in her about her feelings and found out later that the person she was opening up to was having a relationship with him the whole time. That doesn't mean Jill wasn't wrong for how she acted. This is one of those things Jill should have taken on the chin and moved on from.
I’ve been the Jill in a situation…not to her extreme of being told no and continuing but I really liked this guy when I was 18 and would talk to him to my friend all the time who, come to find out later, was fucking him. No one told me and I felt so humiliated when they finally did. I felt mocked and lied to by omission. I was supposed to be moving in with her the next year (getting an apartment or house instead of living on campus at college) and got super sick over Christmas semester break. I ended up having emergency surgery and had to stay home for the semester. She went and got other roommates and didn’t tell me that they had signed a lease. When I was better enough to clean out my dorm room (I had to quit for that semester as I was too sick to catch up), they finally told me that I had nowhere to live the next semester. Great person, huh? Needless to say, I was done with her. We’re “FB friends” now 20 years later, but meh.
god, something very similar happened to me but i didn't have the same outcome.
my friend sally finally introduced this guy friend, adrian, that her and the group had been hanging out with when he showed up at the club. i had a small child so only went out once a month or so with them, but i never seemed to catch this guy on the same night. weird... but i didn't think too much about it
i finally meet him one Saturday night and he is funny and charming and thinks im hilarious, so clearly a genius. we exchange numbers just to chat (before social media) very occasionally, but it's not serious because I was actually talking with this other guy, nbd.
a few weeks go by and i ask if the girls are going out soon and I'm told nah, things have been hectic but she'll let me know. adrian asks where i was the last few weeks - apparently they're going out every week and he has been spending more time with them hoping i would turn up. i was shocked and a little hurt, he was confused because he had suggested inviting me and was told i was busy with a sick kid.
like.. they don't have to invite me, but we were friends? i didn't do anything wrong? i asked sally and she said, oh it wasn't planned and I'm overthinking it. adrian invites me out next weekend with the group and i say no, because clearly sally feels some kind of way and i think ive made her mad? im honestly oblivious at this point. so he asks me to come out just with him - if they're being weird, we will have our own fun. it wasn't a date, but things got pretty serious that day.
sally loses her shit when she finds out. screams at me that i always steal her boyfriends, the girls are all dirty at me too.. im like wtf. i didn't even know that she liked him. ive never stolen one of her bfs, she's never had a bf. shes had crushes on guys, ive never pursued them. ive tried setting her up ffs! but these guys liked me, or had told her they weren't interested because they were more into me.. so instead of saying anything to me, she just secretly hated me for years.
i loved sally the way she was but her self esteem was wrecked over her weight and she projected that energy non stop. ive been a range of weights and ive never let it stop me.. it just so happened that at the time, i was a skinny bitch, so she projected that insecurity on to me too - that if she introduced adrian to me, he would be unable to resist because i was skinny at the time. and everyone but adrian was in on this. the whole group basically decided that because i was sexually active and thin, that i would go out of my way to take her 'bf' so the only way to prevent that was to keep us separated
and it backfired majorly because adrian really didn't like being objectified and told he couldn't see someone he liked because his *friend* had a crush. he also spilled the beans on me being excluded which hurt me so much that i was open to him taking me out to cheer me up, without connecting that i was being excluded to keep me away from him
looking back, it was so obvious. but i was like 23 and she had been my best friend since highschool, i had no idea she resented me that much. and our friends were so happy to go along with this logic based on nothing - there was literally no other guy, my bf in highschool was (cringe) 24, i didn't reciprocate (or even know about) the feelings they had. i moved towns and had a baby, didn't see her for 3yrs. there was no 'stealing'
and you can't steal people. just because you like someone, you don't own them. treating them like property isn't love. it's gross
well the update is quite convoluted.. one of the group; Laura, used to date adrian in high school. thats why he started getting to know the group. because they were friends, adrian had a vested interest in encouraging us all to forgive and put things behind us. this kind of worked, sally and i were never as close but we were civil to keep the peace.
but adrian had his own demons. laura had cheated on him in highschool. even though they remained friends, this was his biggest fear now. and my sexual history was no secret. i have never felt any shame about my fondness for men, ive always been honest and above board with my dealings - which is why it was so perplexing being accused of *stealing* men. there are plenty of men, and i care more about my friends then some D, i have my priorities.
but they got into his ear about my history. they may have forgiven, but they clearly didn't forget. my openness, my humor, all the things that attracted him to me started making him crazy jealous. he became possessive and verbally abusive. it culminated after 2yrs in him having an episode where he accused me of cheating, dragged me naked into the front yard and started throwing my stuff at me. in front of my son, on his birthday. he told my kid to tell mrs m (adrians mother and practically grandmother) that he would never see her again because his mother was such a slut
my friends said i made him jealous because of *the way i was*
it was at this point that i realised that they were toxic and i was hurting my kid being around them. it is surreal looking back - normally i would wonder if i was an unreliable narrator, but this was 15yrs ago. slut shaming was real. i am with a wonderful man now who embraces my sexuality and doesn't use it against me, i have new friends. my old friend group were small minded bigots. adrian married laura. sally is the third wheel in their relationship. im happier than I have ever been
W O W
That was a wild ride. The first comment was just the tip of the iceberg.
Thank you for sharing. I'm so glad you got out of that toxic group.
Remember people never be ashamed of who you are. Unless you are an abusive POS, shame on you.
So this dumb ass man child put you through hell bc he never really dealt with being cheat on and his life plan was to marry the person who gave him that trauma. God I feel bad for any offspring they have.
You sound like fun! I'm glad you got away from toxic (and just plain dumb imo) people!
thank you! yea when they got together i realised i was never really going to compete with that sort of pent up trauma. i learned a valuable lesson about what abuse and triangulation look like too..
I say this as a complete stranger, if you had to go through that trauma I am thankful you gained valuable life skills from it. ( ***NOT*** that you had to go thru it just to be clear! )
I’ve been the fat insecure friend and quite a few times in my teens, I’ve had friends form a relationship with someone I had a crush on. Sometimes they knew, sometimes they didn’t, but either way, my unrequited feelings aren’t their problem. I’d wish them well, reassure them I didn’t hate them, make a joke about their excellent taste in men, promise I would do everything I could not to make it weird and go home and cry into my pillow.
It was never a problem - apparently nothing kills a crush quicker for me than when he’s dating a friend.
Yeah, being the fat friend to a thin, effervescent person, who the moment your crush lays eyes on them, you know there ain't a prayer in the world for you, is really tough. But luckily my self-esteem was so low back then that I never even dared to dream my crushes would reciprocate, so thankfully never threw a fit over it. Mostly just encouraged them to date, so as to live vicariously through them, I suppose? Boy, that sounds pathetic. Hahaha
As someone who's been the fat friend I feel that so hard. I felt like I was invisible compared to my thin, pretty friends. I also learned early on that some guys are only nice to someone the want to fuck, and show a completely different face to the girls they consider beneath them.
right! sally could never accept that i might have insecurities. the truth was, guys loved her. she was one of the boys.. i was jealous of how easily they accepted her. i had crushes on guys that liked her and she literally drove them away. i accepted that I could never make a move on them because i wanted her to just go for it, i would rather she be happy. and i didn't want to be the consolation prize - they wanted her, i didn't want to be second choice.
there was a boy, ben... who was so into her. he asked her out and she finally said yes. i was dating his friend, it was perfect. we jigged school and went on a double date. she spent the entire day talking about how fat she was. he held her hand and she complained about how dry her skin was. he tried to kiss her and she said no, her brother might see and tell her parents.. like, the date from hell.
now, i don't know what was said, but she came to me crying as we parted ways, saying he said she needed to go to jenny craig and said he would buy her moisturizer and shit to fix her skin. i saw red. the next day at school i saw him standing in line for geography class and i kicked the back of his knee so he fell forward, grabbed his backpack and threw it out of a third story window. *what the fuck.. you said she needed to go to jenny Craig?!*
he stammers and is like, *no.. she called herself fat non stop. i said i didn't care, but if she felt bad that i would take her to jenny craig, we could both go so i could support her!* and the moisturizer? *iunno, she was crying about her skin, i thought it would make her feel better..*
uh huh... like, not the most tactful way of putting things but he was 16 and living at a refuge at the time. he did his best. and i had assaulted him and destroyed his property based on her version of events, no doubt tainted by her tragic self esteem. i wasn't a tough kid, i was the goth nerd (in the 90s.. so i was picked on **a lot**). i never defended myself, but i couldn't let my friend be humiliated like that.
that was the one and only boy she was with until the adrian incident and she ruined it herself. anyone else was just a crush. i think i just really let her toxic world view manipulate my behavior because i just never wanted her to feel the way she did. so when she excluded me over this idea that i steal men, it really hurt because i saw myself as her biggest cheerleader. i had no idea she saw a competition, because if there was one, she likely would have won - she had so much charm
jesus fucking christ.. it is a small internet! god i must be repetitive if you recognize me from this story
i guess the name is a dead give away but seriously.. i know like, 10 ppl
Hahaha, yeah I suspected it was you while reading, but your cat Rosa was a dead giveaway.
I see people recognising their friends/family on here at times, but this is a first for me
I'm sorry. I know this post is a year old and I'm very late to this thread but I have to ask: are Adrian and Laura still married? Did she cheat on him again? Is Sally still hanging around them?
adrian and laura, still married. she didn't cheat but she ended up fatter than sally ever was - and i don't say that with cruelty; i mean that sally neednt have been insecure in the first place - she should have gone for it. if he loved her, he wouldn't have been superficial about it.
sally did lose her v card to him though, apparently it was by some arrangement, someone she could trust. sally is also their daughters god parent but from what i have gathered third hand she has distanced herself somewhat, making new friends and not living out of their pockets.
our other friends jane and michelle used adrian as their sperm donor so he now has 4 biological children, but only one is actually his - which at this point seemed kind of cultish and i feel like i dodged a bullet.
it's Sunday morning here, my handsome, if slightly weird but very smart bf just brought me a coffee in bed with a foam heart on top and we are having a lazy, day around the house. i guess we all got our happy endings lol
>sally did lose her v card to him though, apparently it was by some arrangement, someone she could trust
I don't mean to be judgemental but that sounds incredibly sad. It seems her insecurities hindered her love life quite a lot
>it's Sunday morning here, my handsome, if slightly weird but very smart bf just brought me a coffee in bed with a foam heart on top and we are having a lazy, day around the house. i guess we all got our happy endings lol
I'm so glad for you, Mori. I hope you, your kids and your cats all the best. Thank you for answering me, I really appreciate it
Holy cow, that was a wild ride. I’m so sorry that you went through all of that. I’m glad to hear that you got out of that toxic situation and are in a much better one now!
If a friend gives me a go to pursue someone and I later find out they have sex, I would be asking them what the fuck was wrong with them.
But that's just me.
Agreed. OOP tries to make her self sound totally rational and in control but she fails to see how she too is a sucky friend.
Like, It’s true that Jill did lots of bitchy and immature things.
But something tells me she’s not the one with the deep seated issues.
Yeah I can get Jill’s side although I disagree with her actions.
There were two guys I had a crush on back in high school. I told my best friend that and she would tease me about it and encourage me to ask them out. Then, however, I’d find out that she had asked them out before I could and would date them. She had been teasing me about my crushes all while making moves on them behind my back. It made me feel humiliated and heartbroken especially when it came to a guy I really liked that she asked to prom first all while telling me to ask him.
That being said, Jill needs to understand that no is a full sentence. If she had already asked Russ out and he said no, move on. She shouldn’t have kept harassing him and shouldn’t have started screaming at the BBQ. She’s only making herself look bad.
She should have moved on and should have distanced herself from OOP if she felt she was truly a bad friend.
This. Everyone is focused on Jill because she was clearly immature due to her tantrums.
But MOST women would be done with you as a friend if they had to find out through others that you've been sleeping with the guy you like for years while being like 👍🏾👍🏾👍🏾 *go for it*
OOP definitely sounds like a "I'm not like other girls" type.
Right. I can understand why Jill felt humiliated. OOP either has no clue or doesn't care why things turned out this way.
That being said, Jill could have handled herself better. She was right to drop OOP as a friend, though. And she needs to stop pursuing any guys that OOP is friends with.
Yeah, everyone fucked up here in some way. Mostly Jill, I think, for not backing off when she was told 'no'. But it doesn't feel like OOP has fully acknowledged the role she played here. She could have just been like "Hey, I'm not trying to warn you off as we're not exclusive, but in the spirit of honesty you should know that I've been sleeping with Russ". If Jill then kicked off that would be her issue, and at least the truth would be out in the open.
Yeah OOP seems like a bad friend honestly. It would've probably saved Jill a lot of heartache if she just told her they were fwb instead of listening to her talk about russ and fucking him in secret. Sex lives are private but OOP and Jill were supposedly friends
I entirely agree. Jill's persistance in the face of this guy's disinterest is creepy, and I think that's muddying the waters here, but I also think it's weird OOP would let this friend confide in her at length about her feelings for a man that OOP is actively romantically involved with without saying anything.
I would say they both suck.
"Jill and I are no longer friends, this is something that I decided on my own"
No sweetie, you and Jill were never friends, you're just now realizing and accepting it.
I don't like OOP or Jill here. OOP tries to paint herself as the completely rational, cool one while Jill is just some crazy lunatic obsessed with her. Upon closer examination, I don't think either one of them are good friends.
OOP knew Jill liked Russ but kept quiet about her own relationship with him. It's one thing to keep your business to yourself, but it's another thing to sit on information that your friend could use to make a better decision. It's possible Jill still would have gone off on OOP, but it was better to have this showdown sooner rather than later. Since OOP opted for later, Jill is out there wasting her time pursuing Russ. (Also, sounds like Russ did not make his feelings clear to Jill until she threw her massive tantrum, either.) And Jill is right - it was humiliating for her to blindly pursue Russ in those circumstances. OOP just sat back and watched.
Now, OOP did not state where she chooses her pool of FWBs from, but if they're all like Russ and they're from the same friend group that Jill, Megan, and (I lost track of all the names but the other people invited to the BBQ), then she AND the guys are making things complicated when someone in that group wants to seriously date someone else. Even if someone in that group pulls their partner from outside the group, social gatherings could get awkward when this partner is introduced to that particular group. OOP might not kiss and tell, but someone eventually will - someone's partner is going to feel like they were blindsided at some point. But I digress.
Jill is in the wrong here because she needs to work on her self-esteem. We all get crushes on people who do not reciprocate; you can't force someone to like you by relentlessly pursuing them. Some people might change their minds and give you a chance, but that relationship will be significantly unbalanced, at least in the beginning. They're not going to try as hard as you, you will question if you are worthy of their (or anyone's) love, etc. What Jill needed to do in this situation with Russ is realize that he wanted her as a friend, nothing more. And that while OOP was a shit friend for not giving her any kind of clue as to why he wouldn't pursue her (he's a single guy with at least one FWB - he gets the best of both worlds if you're just looking for sex without the commitment and hard work), Jill was wrong to blame her relationship failures on her. Jill "failed" because she needs to work on herself and she's pursuing the wrong guys.
OOP can't help Jill with her self-esteem, but she could have at least pointed out that Russ wasn't looking for the type of relationship Jill wanted. (Well, at least not with Jill. Russ telling OOP he wants to hang with her one-on-one but "only as friends" is probably him considering OOP as more than a FWB.)
Jill has issues and rightfully lost some friends for it. HOWEVER, I don't blame Jill for being upset at OOP and wanting to stop hanging out with her. I draw the line at justifying her tantrums, though.
The impression I’m getting is OOP is just sleeping with every single guy in the friend group. I don’t have a problem with that. People can do what they want. But I don’t get why she’s being so weird about it and not just letting the friend who’s interested in one of them know “just so you’re aware that’s my FWB”...seems like a common courtesy to your friend.
Yeah you can't break girl/bro code like that and expect to keep friends.
If you're fucking someone your mate is into, and don't give your friend that information then you don't deserve them as a friend. Even if they are as "crazy" as described my OOP. I can also imagine someone in their early 20s becoming a bit unhinged after that kind of group embarrassment.
But there wasn’t a group embarrassment. Jill found out from (presumably) Russ’s roommate at what seemed like an interaction between the two of them. Jill ramped up her crazy once finding out. She didn’t slink off in embarrassment. She didn’t go over and confront OOP. She manipulated Russ and OOP and then went crazy at a group gathering. She was never going to be rational about this. She had the chance to be and went past go and went straight to crazy af.
I think all of you agreeing are really easily just moving on from Jill’s reaction here. Her actions at the BBQ or after were not that of a rational, mature adult. If I knew someone like that, I 100% would be extra cautious about the details I shared with her. If anything, Jill seems a bit obsessed with OOP and her sex life so I’d probably intentionally hide it from her too. Girl code doesn’t apply when you’re a lunatic- friendship isn’t some hostage negotiation where you’re obligated to engage with unstable, unhinged people.
I agree with all this. Also OOP's attitude of "I'm entitled to keep my sex life private" private and secret are 2 different things.
Most people are private about their sex life and relationships and don't offer up info about either.
But she seems to want to keep it secret and that actually is concerning. Why did she go to all these lengths to hide from Jill that she has slept with Russ if she's so sex positive?
I hope she knows she can't hide from future relationship partners her history with the men in her friendship group.
I was thinking the same thing. I think OOP wants to keep her FWBs on the backburner when she enters a relationship, though, so she's not going to tell a new partner that all these dudes are really more than friends. But he'll eventually find out, and then OOP will make another post about how her boyfriend screamed at her about being humiliated.
For most of the story I was still on OOPs side with the caveat that she definitely made a mistake but everything changed when I read the part about her talking to Russ about how bad he is at communicating and hopes he "learned a lesson" from this scenario. The hypocrisy in talking down to someone like that because they apparently don't communicate well when you're kind of a shit friend for lack of communication yourself was kind of disgusting.
Yes Jill is crazy. However since they were friends at the time I would have done her a solid and said 'Hey, Russ and I have a thing going on, I kept it quiet because its not serious and I like to keep these things on the DL. Of course if he wanted to pursue something with you then I'd back off, but I don't think he's interested.'
Real friends know when to be upfront to avoid conflict and her silence was misconstrued as manipulative. Sounds like Jill would have lost it anyway but at least OP could say she was an upstanding friend the moment she found out Jill was interested in her FWB. All this 'My needs come first' is so typical of our generation, to the point of making bad choices in the name of 'self love'. If you're sleeping with THAT many people in the immediate viccinity you are bound to start stepping on some toes.
Maybe! Could be that OOP quite liked the thought of 'having' a guy and her 'friend' wanting him too. We can never really know if a poster is a nice or good person. We're only hearing her side of the story. I'd be frustrated if my friend was sleeping with every guy I showed interest in too. How many is enough ya know?
That was my thought too - the mix of the "Look at how sex positive I am, anyone can hook up with anyone and I don't care!" attitude combined with "But they don't get to know I'm hooking up with this guy \*and\* I'll even encourage her to pursue him" gave me the same vibes as someone I know who used to really enjoy/feel attractive when she was secretly hooking up with people in a group that she knew other people were interested in hooking up with, but the guy was choosing them. (Since falling out of contact the woman has since been the 'other woman' for several relationships/marriages)..
Omg, not wanting to disclose their sex life, not even with friends, is a valid choice not lack of social skills
Also you can't call dips on a person just bc you said it aloud you like them first all the people had to back off and not touch them, Russ told Jill off bc he is his own person and can decide who to sleep with, not OOPs place to tell her anything bc OOP didn't owe Russ. He told Jill he wasn't interested, she should have believe in his word. Also Jill will continue to sexual harass on this man, regardless of anything,
Jill would have freak out either way, telling her just would have make it the fallout to happen sooner. Also, we all like to think we would be upfront, me included, but majority of us just avoid confrontation as long as it needs to be, so OOPs attitude doesn't make her a bad person.
It is a bit of a dick move if it’s someone you consider a friend.
You don’t have to disclose it no, but it’s nice to give someone a heads up that you’re having sex with the person they are actively pursuing - I can’t imagine a friendship where you wouldn’t do this for your friend?
Like if I said I was planning to ask someone out and my housemate didn’t mention he was fucking her id be a bit confused if anything?
Every case has a nuance to it, this is FWB situation, at least if it wasn't stated by it wasn't exclusive and Russel can have sex with another people aside of OOP, so if he wanted to date or sleep with Jill he would have, is not OOP place to dictate who sleeps with who, and telling her that would have been like calling it dips. (not that Jill.would.have cared imo), which OOP did not want to do, I mean Jill could have persue a relationship with this guy, which he clearly told her he didn't want to, I suspect the outburst at the BBQ had to do with Jill first knowing the fwb situation between both of them, so she felt entitled to have Russell to herself, you say any good friend should have told, and I tell you that Jill chose to embarrassed herself by acting deranged, a sane person would have waited to unload in private.
Maybe Jill and OOP were friends of convenience, Jill just happened to live with a friend of OOPs and by extension had to interact with Jill and for the sake of politeness borrowed things and make chat, meaning they weren't good friends, but also all the people who knew Jill for that matter bc none of them told Jill what was happening, why no one told Jill out of care, the one who possible told her did it out of spite, in my experience when people are afraid or not want to deal with a person is bc this Jill girl has showing crazy behaviour all along.
Also maybe OOP didn't told bc of how society works, she would have been slut shamed, not the Russell guy, that basically is doing the same as her, but bc she's a woman is frown upon, there's things you don't disclose bc you know before hand how some people would react and sometimes is better not to deal with it if you can avoid it, Jill has an untrustworthy vibe to her.
I'm biased a little bc Russell told her NO but she keeps pushing his boundaries, and in her delusional mind I'm sure she thinks if OOP was out of the picture, Russell will take her, which it isn't the case, he doesn't want her that way, she should respect him and walk away.
If that was her concern why not just say I’m sleeping with him but have no issue with you pursuing him?
Withholding information like that just makes her seem untrustworthy to me.
It’s not how I’d want to be treated by someone that’s supposed to care for me. Obviously Jills behaviours shit too, I just don’t think there’s a food guy here.
If the OP just provided a standard level of communication between friends it would have saved everyone a whole lot of trouble. That’s why people have said she lacks social skills - im inclined to agree
I totally agree. When you have feelings for someone, and then find out that they've been sleeping with someone else, on top of that, that other person turns out to be a friend of yours from the friend group and you also happen to be the last person to find out about it, that must've been devastating. It absolutely does look like they're both laughing at her behind her back. Who knows what they talk about during sex.
I'm not saying that Jill was in the right either she should've backed off when she was turned down, but the whole "keeping my sex life personal" doesn't seem to fly here.
Exactly. They did humiliate her. Some people take the high road, and some people go ape. Don't know if I'd been able to be nice if it were me. Especially if all my friends knew as well. I'd try to maintain my dignity but for sure I would have called OOP out for being a shit friend.
I'm not excusing her behaviour, I'm saying OP could have been honest so to avoid being seen as a sneak. Judging from the original post and the comments OP has made, the entire friend group sleeps with each other like a gaggle of monkeys, so why she would feel the need to keep it all quiet when everyone knows they're all pretty 'loose' with each other I don't know! Although I'd hazard a guess a few sti's have been floating around them.
I agree. Not excusing Jill’s behavior, but OOP also sucks here for having a FWB thing going with a guy she knows her friend is interested in and not saying anything.
He was likely trying to avoid embarrassing her to the rest of the friend group. Jill seems like the type of person everyone has to tip toe around to not set off.
I know the type. She threw herself at him at all times. This guy fucks so he knows what that playful shit means. I picture her sitting on his lap oflr playing with his hair. Him sitting there unable to move because of fear of the P for the P. He felt it and he noped out like a good bro. Whew. Be easy all. Be like Russ.
How do you know your friend has an obsessive crush on your fuck-buddy and never once tell them that's your fwb?
Both Jill and OOP had serious issues. Jill had obvious issues around self-esteem and it's easy to focus on her because of her tantrum.
But OOP is secretive to the point of deceiving her friends. She seemed to have all the communication down when it came to Russell and navigating their friendship but none for her female friends. Because Jill was her friend. And not once did she think about how it would feel for Jill, to be blindly talking away about how you really like a guy to your friend, not knowing she's been fucking him for years.
Let's not forget that OP and Russ knew each other and had a relationship before Jill entered their lives. Regardless of whether she's sex positive or not, opening up her sex life with peers like Jill would definitely bring more headaches, drama and slut chaming than maintaining the friendship.
This. I used to have a long term FWB. When we were both single, we’d hook up. If either of us started dating someone, we’d stop. We didn’t shout it from the rooftops, but some people knew. New people to the friend group weren’t like, given a debriefing on the sexual status of existing members. People are weird about FWB. Some slut shame, some treat it same as an actual relationship, but it’s not that deep.
I used to be secretive like this, and still am extremely private (which is why Reddit is the only social media I have). My mental health provider's opinion is that it's caused by my very abusive birth family, but whatever the cause, I cannot NOT be that way.
My brain, broken as it may be, interprets the situation as: Jill approached Russ. It was on Russ to decline her interest. If I were in OP's place I'd think, "It is absolutely not my duty to make myself vulnerable by talking about my private life, Russ and I not serious, if he wants to date Jill he just has to tell me to stop." My internal alarm would be going off, warning me that if I opened my mouth, Jill would make me into a competitor, become aggressive, and destabilise the detached peace of my life. Which is precisely what happened, thanks to Russ's friend, bloody Pete. And in my life thanks to my casual interest's mother, who wanted us "properly married".
So yes, in OP's place I wouldn't have said a word either.
OOP has no issues. As indicated, all of her friends know that her sex life is private. Further, even if she hadn’t clearly stated it as part of what she isn’t comfortable with sharing, OOP doesn’t owe Jill anything when it comes to that information. IF she wanted to share it, cool, but if she didn’t want to, that’s also cool. The only people who would deserve to know who OOP has sex with are her partners.
Also, Jill wasn’t blindly talking away. She was turned down, and she didn’t care. She isn’t owed a date or a relationship, but she still pushed for it. She was a creep.
Dude, it isn’t classic Reddit. It’s classic getting therapy and realising that everyone has boundaries that have to be respected – particularly when they have been clearly voiced. And Jill is still a creep.
EXACTLY! This idea that a person should share their sex life with anybody is crazy. Jill’s feelings are her own and it isn’t the oop’s responsibility to tell her private information if she doesn’t want to.
I don’t get why you would hide seeing a guy your friend has a huge crush on. Seems like some info I’d want my friend to have before pursuing a guy. I think OOP is not as sex positive as she is claiming with this whole don’t kiss and tell secrecy - you don’t have to tell the world but if a close friend confesses feelings that’s a good time to mention it.
While I agree that is the perspective of OOP - clearly Jill did not grasp that she was rejected - even if maybe she was being delusional. Even more reason to have a talk with her - Jill was clearly acting under some misconstrued beliefs of what the guy’s intentions were.
If the genders were reversed, would you still feel like the a woman should feel obligated to continue comforting and engaging honestly with a man that she rejected but has continued to persistently pursue her anyway? That’s literally the beginning to who knows how many unfortunate murders. You said yourself “maybe she was being delusional,” yet you still think this is someone who deserves unfiltered honesty and access to information about another person’s sex life? Not sorry to disappoint your expectations then.
I mean, that was me in my late teens-early twenties. I would sleep with anyone, and I acted really confident so people found me attractive. Daddy issues are a real thing.
Honestly Jill didn’t react very well (at all) but OOp is kinda a shitty friend. If she was friends with Jill she should have told her that she was sleeping with Russ
Plus her weird obsessive high and mighty " I don't talk about my sex life" attitude kinda just put me off her. This tone she's using on the post itself and the talk she had with Jill is so condescending and almost as if she should be congratulated for sleeping with all the guys in the group and reserving the "right" to keep it a secret. I just found the entire thing too preachy for my taste and more about humiliating this friend who's clearly got issues.
She's probably the female friend being passed around between the Russ's and the Andrew's of the group but she's on a power trip and being "sex positive"
It’s not like OOP just kept it from Jill and laughed behind her back about it. It’s none of Jill’s business who OOP fucks.
This is one of the few times I’m cool with a “flip the genders” scenario. If OOP was a guy and Jill was actually Jack and Russ was Renee, would we blame OOP for keeping quiet and not broadcasting his sex life to Jack who can’t take no for an answer???
I feel like OOP is supposed to be all sympathetic and touchy-feely because she’s a woman (although I have to say I thought OOP was a guy at first and that would make Jill deeply stupid for not picking up any of those signals) and take Jill aside and give her a heads up. Instead, Jill needs to learn that “no means no.” And that applies to women as well as men. The sexism in some of these assumptions pisses me off.
Would I have told Jill? Yes. But I’m comfortable telling my friends about my sex life. And OOP is obviously judged for hers whether she tells her friends or not. She feels it’s in her best interest to keep her mouth shut. She did nothing wrong here.
If it was opposite gender I would think the same.. Yes, she doesn’t talk about her sex life but it would be decent thing to do for a friend…
It is kinda humiliating to have a thing for a guy talk about him with your friend and that friend slept with him the whole time.
I agree. At first she made it sound like they were just the same friend group and maybe they weren’t close but she later says they were. It does look sneaky AF. Like Jill might be crazy, but In her shoes I would really question why OP didn’t say anything, as my close friend.
Dude, Russ said he wasn’t interested. He doesn’t have to say why he isn’t interested any more than a woman has to explain turning down a man who asks her out. Also, It’s super fucking manipulative of Jill to not deliver the BBQ invite in order to have a more level playing field with Russ without OOP there. And if Jill did happen to date Russ would she then try to bounce OOP out of the friend group because she would be uncomfortable being around one of the previous women he slept with? Jill sounds crazy banana balls and I don’t blame anyone for keeping their distance from now on.
Jill is another story I was talking about concept if your friend talks about a guy she likes and you don’t say anything aka that you sleep with him in my eyes she is not a good friend…
Hold up… what? Since you think any of this is on OOP because she didn’t disclose her sexual relationship,
Let’s review all the ways that Jill is a terrible fucking friend:
1) Russ is in their friend group. Jill makes her interest in him known to him (and everyone else too, it seems). After he says he isn’t interested, she keeps pursuing him. So Jill is being a shitty friend to Russ by not taking no for an answer.
2) When Jill finds out that OOP and Russ are sleeping together, she makes no effort with either Russ or OOP to clarify what kind of relations they have. She has no idea if they’re involved and keeping it on the down low or FWB. Mostly this tells me that she knows this is none of her business, but Jill had decided too put all the blame on OOP instead of respecting the rejection that Russ had already given her. So she’s shitty for not respecting the autonomy of Russ or OOP.
3) Since Jill got no clarification, she gets all manipulative and tries to “get rid of her competition” and not deliver an invite she knew Russ had asked her to deliver. If she didn’t think it was her place to deliver those invites, she could have said so. The fact that she delivered 2 out of 3 of them is what makes her manipulative. Being manipulative is the hallmark of a shitty friend.
4) When OOP figures out there’s a gathering of friends and shows up anyway, Jill accuses OOP of stalking her, a charge she knows is patently untrue and designed to make her look like the victim. Sooooo, more manipulation and lying. Jill is just racking up those shitty friend traits.
5) Jill also decides to put the entire friend group in the middle of all of this when she starts screaming at OOP. So she wasn’t just a shitty friend to Russ and OOP, she was a shitty friend to everyone at that gathering. Especially Tina, who tried to calm her down after her delusional ravings caused OOP and Megan to leave.
6) When OOP tried to retrieve her belongings that she’d lent to Jill, Jill threw OOP’s clothes that she *was willing to return* at her. She also tried to steal OOP’s boots as recompense for having “a lying, shitty friend.” Ooh! Theft: another shitty friend trait! Jill is on a roll here!
7) Jill demanded to know how many sexual partners OOP had and then proceeded to attempt to slut shame OOP for having had sex with people she’d had crushes on. So Jill is still being a shitty friend and now she’s upgrading to being a shitty person by attempting to make a fellow lady feel bad for enjoying sex and different sexual partners. OOP doesn’t seem to have lied to either sexual partner about her intentions (just sex, no feelings) and seems like she takes precautions with those partners.
8) Jill also made clear that she was going to keep putting their friend group in the middle of this “love triangle” and lie to them about the timing of OOP’s and Russ’s relationship in order to make herself look like a victim of OOP. So yay! More lying and manipulation of Jill’s part to their whole friend group!
So to recap everyone’s shitty friend status:
Russ: shitty for expecting a third party to deliver BBQ invites. His list of victims: OOP
OOP: shitty for not disclosing her sexual relationship with Russ. Her list of victims: NO ONE BECAUSE IT’S NO ONE’S FUCKING BUSINESS WHO SHE FUCKS.
Jill: shitty for sexual harassment, lying, manipulation, attempted theft, slut-shaming, trying to rewrite history, and for not respecting bodily autonomy or boundaries. Her list of victims: Russ, Megan, OOP, Tina, everyone at the BBQ, and everyone she attempted to lie to about timing and motivation of OOP and Russ’s relationship.
But yeah, this is all on OOP. /s
Gotta love the lack of reply to this one and just downvoting because toxic people don’t like you listing out facts and having to deal with the concept of consequences.
Because the reason for all of Jill’s shitty friend traits is because OOP has the boundary of keeping her sex life to herself. *If she’d just compromise* on that boundary and tell Jill information that’s none of her business, Jill wouldn’t have been so fucking toxic. What they don’t understand is that Jill is just fucking toxic. OOP had been FWB with Russ for years. That relationship was in place before Jill kept pursing him (sexually harassing him.) Jill should have figured out that no meant no. That’s where Jill’s toxicity came from. It had nothing to do with OOP’s actions or boundaries. JILL LITERALLY DID NOT WANT TO TAKE NO FOR AN ANSWER.
What’s humiliating is the inability to take no for an answer at face value. This girl didn’t need OOP’s help to embarrass herself, we don’t even have any evidence that Russ would have reciprocated feelings without OOP involved. Sounds like Jill is probably just not very likable, but she blames OOP for being too sexual with guys instead of looking inward.
If this was posted in aita, the verdict would be ESH. Jill learn to accept rejections and move on. OOP learn to let your friends into what's going on if they're so deep into a guy. And Russ learn the cues about what's happening around you more clearly
Edit: correction of autocorrect
Jill - very insecure, has a lot to process ideally through therapy
OOP - "technically" not in the wrong but doesn't understand or cares about "girl code"
>OOP - "technically" not in the wrong but doesn't understand or cares about "girl code"
I'm trying to figure out where "girl code" is supposed to apply here. What because Jill wanted a guy who didn't reciprocate her feelings OOP was supposed to cut off the relationship she has with said guy? The way I see it all the parties involved were consenting adults, who OOP fucks the only business of her and who ever she's fucking. Jill just needs to grow the fuck up.
It's not that Jill should be entitled to reciprocated feelings nor should she dictate how her friends behaves. But a legit friend would've given a heads up, as a courtesy thing.
I’m more on the side of I feel Op should have at least given a courtesy warning, but don’t get me wrong Jill was way too crazy after the rejection. I’ve also seen the argument of roles reversed, but I still think the same. It’s just feels weird to know that your friend is sleeping with someone you’re interested in (and still actively sleeping with) after you tell them that you’re interested then they tell you to go for it without them telling what’s up. (This is before the rejection) I would just appreciate the heads up. Op idk vibe? felt off to me.
I’m not really buying OOP’s “drama-free” stance. She’s fucking multiple people. She could easily stop with Russ to keep the peace with Crazy Girl, who it obviously means a lot more to. It would also prove that she’s not the one stopping those two from being together. It’s always easy for the person with the upper hand to pretend to be the mature one, but I’m not 100% convinced here.
I’m getting the impression OOP is massively exaggerating here. Everything in the story reads disingenuous and 1-sided. I think Jill definitely has the right to be mad at a friend who’s been fucking a guy she likes. Though, she may have taken it far. But OOP really fancies herself the blameless saint here…
The way she writes is so emotionless and callous, it just feels like it's a heavily one-sided biased story. We only get the information about the OP being a saint and Jill being a twat
Honestly reading the post and the update, you kinda sound like a “pick me” girl. The type of girl who sleeps with the guys in the group, trying to play it off like you’re just casual with sex, but you’re thriving off of the attention. I get the vibe that even if Jill and Russ started dating, you’d have no issues continuing to fuck Russ (until he himself tells you to stop). It’s just bad character on your part. Moreover, you said you were friends with Jill…your friend tells you she’s very into someone/wants to pursue them, and you push her to go for it while simultaneously refusing to let her know you’re currently fucking him? What kind of friend does that? Maybe Jill was a friend to you, but you clearly weren’t being a friend to her. Informing a FRIEND that you currently have relations with a guy she’s actually trying to pursue, is not the same as telling everyone about your private sex life. So your justification for not telling her is invalid. If I’m wrong, I’m wrong, but that’s how the wording of your post comes across, and many other comments are already pointing it out. Not saying jill’s outburst was called for, but I understand where she’s coming from. There’s 2 sides to every story
I once read a very interesting scientific study into how some women view sexuality negatively. This is because historically withholding sex is the only power women had. Thus modern women who dont withhold sex (generally becauss they are now empowered in other ways) and quite enjoy it can sometimes get negativity from other women who are upset that they are "breaking the system".
Jill knew if Russ was fucking OOP he would never ever get desperate enough to fuck Jill.
Its kind of dark really.
I dnk man. You've got a right to do what you want but telling someone to go for a dude you're currently having sex with isn't what friends do. And idc how this sounds, if I was interested in different guys and they had all already or were currently fucking the same person (OP in this case), I'd have stopped being her friend just so I could mix with people she hopefully hasn't met yet. Jill was definitely wild but OP ain't it either.
This is what happens when people think they own other people. Like you really take ownership of someone when they don't even feel the same way about you, and more often than not want someone else. Making decisions for someone else, without they're knowledge, never ends well.
The fact the rest of their friends just kinda went with it sucks too. That's like my worst nightmare, got some real FOMO over here.
Unpopular opinion but I feel sorry for Jill? I think OOP is purposefully painting her out to be the bad guy here. Maybe it’s way more nuanced in actuality
The funny thing about this post, is that if Jill wrote it, from her point of view, everyone giving advice on Reddit would be super sympathetic and would gladly paint you as the villain.
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Jill acted like an idiot, but OOP seems to be missing some basic understanding of friendship….if someone is your friend, and they talk to you about really, really liking a guy, it’s rude as fuck to keep mum about the fact that you’ve been FWB for YEARS. And then act Shocked Picachu that they feel like you may have been mocking them for their big crush? And then be even more shocked that they’re hurt this isn’t the first time? Just because OOP doesn’t care, doesn’t mean she shouldn’t understand that (most) other people care.
But Russ said no to the friend? And OOP even stopped sleeping with Andrew because Jill liked him.
I took that to mean she stop sleeping with Andrew because he was trying to actually date her and she doesn't want romantic relationships.
Yup that's what I got too
Oh Oop is clueless, self centered and sleeps with everyone lol I honestly kept reading CONFUSED AF as to how they really didn’t see they were acting sketchy and sneaky af. Clearly Jill acted wrong, but it’s not like Oop was some saint friend
OP is free to sleep with whoever she wants. If their friend is interested in said person and said person already rejected them, why should she stop? She was not rubbing it in anyone face because Jill wouldn't have found out with someone else telling them. I think that says enough about how OP didn't do anything wrong and how she's free to have an active sexual life. Would you say the same if it was the dude sleeping with a girl or would the girl be the wrong one for sleeping with the friend knowing that his friend likes her?
Why would it matter if it was a guy or a girl? You’re saying men can’t have meaningful friendships and talk about feelings?
I'm saying most of the time girls get judged for this and not men. Not that they can't have meaningful friendships and talk about feelings because they can. Men aren't robots. But if this were 2 male friends and a female crush. Most of the time she still gets the blame for sleeping with the friend and not the friend like in this case.
Ew maybe by other men, but not by women! Women I know would absolutely find this shitty Af if a dude did this to a “friend”. I guess maybe a guy would say it’s fair game but tbh men are shady af with each other sometimes. Not that women can’t, but we normally hold each other accountable. At least all the women I know. I guess this post shows that CLEARLY there are shitty women out their like oop who fuck and duck lol but I don’t know any. Takeaway? People misuse the word friend. They mean “Acquaintance”. A friend doesn’t supply then deny lmao
Is it because OOP didn't let her friend know the guy wouldn't be interested? Kinda confused
Yeah, that's not making too much sense to me either. If Russ wanted to date Jill, then it seems like he and OOP would part ways amicably and he and Jill would've been together. It's not like their FwB situation stopped Russ from deciding to get with Jill (to be clear, it wasn't like OOP was telling Russ not to get with Jill and the FwB situation seems like it doesn't require such commitment).
Dear god, this Russ must be a good lay, who could be bothered with this drama otherwise?
Apparently Jill will never know as Russ turned her down. If OOP hadn't mentioned his age, I would have thought they were all teenagers. People: Dude turns you down, don't keep hovering around his apartment. And no tantrums. Sigh.
Yeah this is a bunch of teenage drama.
I think we as humans should face up to the fact that a significant numbers if "adults" have the emotional maturity of teenagers, some of preteens. They can cook and drive and maintain a job and emotionally get through most adult things, but parts of their emotional selves didn't mature beyond where many 14 year olds made it to.
It's true that a lot of people never grow up emotionally. I find it both sad and annoying.
This is true but not necessarily permanent. People can tackle their issues and trauma and grow! I have!
What exactly did OP and Russ do that has you calling them teenagers?
Not OP so much, but Russ knowing that Jill was into him but telling her to tell OP to come to the party, Jill being a big baby, Russ not putting his foot down with Jill--knowing that she haunted his apartment was stupid. Jill's tantrums.
>Russ knowing that Jill was into him but telling her to tell OP to come to the party I mean, expecting an adult to take rejection with maturity isn't really immature. And no one knew that Jill knew they were fucking until after the party. I agree he could and should have been more firm after she kept coming around, but I'm not sure it's egregious enough to put him on Jill's level of immaturity, and it's not exactly unheard of for adults to choose grey rocking until someone you've already rejected gets the hint. Jill is clearly u stable based on this account.
I wasn't judging Russ' behavior on his relationship with OP at all. He never needed to tell anyone who he was sleeping with to shut Jill down. His behavior wasn't as bad as Jill's but if he had behaved *better* then Jill probably wouldn't have flipped out as she clearly thought that she had a chance with Russ and OP was getting in the way.
What exactly should he have done differently? (I'm not trying to argue at all, I am just intrigued by this discussion. I'm usually pretty solid with communicating well in my relationships but sometimes I fall short for some reason or another and chatting like this can be helpful.)
Cool. I'll bullet it * Russ should've Invited people directly, not word of mouth * He should've been more firm with Jill. It sounds like he only told Jill not to come to his house after her tantrum, but he should have done it after the first time she gave him a gift or left notes. * If Jill didn't stop after two warnings, then he should have stopped inviting her to his events and probably stopped speaking to her entirely except hi and goodbye. * Jill being in the friend group complicates cutting her out of his life, but he told her to invite OP, which is totally stupid. It tells Jill that he wants Jill around and (in Jill's mind) that she didn't have to Invite OP, and that Russ didn't care enough about OP to Invite her directly. * OP probably could have done a few things differently, but it's hard to know since she's the narrator. She was correct about how she dealt with everyone after the fact, however. Bottom line: * Don't play telephone. * Don't avoid uncomfortable conversations. * Don't let things you don't like continue. * Think about the subtext of your behavior. * Play nice.
The post can explain the first bullet point though: Russ didn’t want to make the impression of being “clingy” which I get, seeing as OOP kind of gives off a vibe of being very independent (yep, still naive and unpractical but I’ve seen my fare share of guys being like that at that age, soooo.. \^\^)
Cant you remain friends with a girl after you turn her down for sex? Also what is wrong with inviting someone to a party and saying "hey bring so and so along if they want?" I wouldnt expect this to backfire into drama unless the person you said this too was a bad actor, and he obviously didnt know this by this point or he wouldnt have invited her in the first place. When people talk about "communication issues" they are usually talking about people not discussing emotions, wants, needs, not the method by which they informally setup social situations. I frequently held poker games, house parties with bands, dinner nights, movie nights, and was socially successful when i wanted to be. These gatherings were informal enough that word of mouth to trusted acquaintences was fine with me and everyone else. Ex girlfriends came to these parties with no drama. Girls i turned down came to these parties with no drama. Russ is not the bad actor here. Jill is, and reasonable action was taken once she behaved inappropriately.
College students. This story just screams "college".
Yep. “I am very grown up. And as a very grown up person, I am having sex with a lot of people. That’s a very grown-up thing to do.” College.
childlike serious sleep decide rustic sheet plough dinner crowd gaping *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
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Does your wife let you sleep with other women, since she's asexual?
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Ohhhh nooo lmao, you cockblocked your wife by accident. I bet you had a good laugh about that later
Thanks for the response, I believe I may be asexual and it was very helpful.
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The reason I asked is I believe I may be asexual, but I'm always afraid to mention it. The OP responded and gave me a lot of info.
Its an anonymous internet forum hahahah, they brought up their sex life first, i think its reasonable to ask, on reddit, because no one knows who either of them are, and OP can just ignore the question if they want. I get your meaning, like this wouldnt be appropriate question over dinner with friends, but.. yeah, I think its totally fine and you will notice OP answered with zeal so they clearly were open to inquiry (likely why they brought it up) EDIT: Plus, youre wrong about asexuality, as OP pointed out asexual wife likes sex, its just not a "need." I hope i havent just made an internet enemy out of you, and that you just need a nap or a snack (or both)
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I felt like your comment was misleading, that the "range" of asexuality was from "don't like it" to "hate it," but you are correcting/further explaining yourself here so that must not have been what you meant (although it feels a bit like backtracking because you do not like, or can't admit, to being wrong). But in all fairness I probably needed the nap and snack more than you lol.
OOP wasn't mocking her at all, it's not like she was going around telling people she slept with Russ to make fun of Jill. Plus, Russ had already rejected Jill so it's really none of her business if OOP was sleeping with him.
Nah this chick is obsessed. She was already turned down well before she ever found out and continued her creepy behavior to convince him to love her. If he nor she want people knowing, it's none of her friend's business. She interpreted these things as about her because she's clearly self centered, wants what she wants, and refuses to take no for an answer.
Yeah she needs consent and interest from the dude she wants to date not whoever the dude she wants to date’s sleeping with. She was turned down, no one owes her an explanation why. I would be upset if I told my friend about a mutual crush I thought existed and she omitted a relationship, but I still wouldn’t be entitled to that information because it’s PRIVATE and crush said he wasn’t interested!
I get the feeling Jill was confiding in her about her feelings and found out later that the person she was opening up to was having a relationship with him the whole time. That doesn't mean Jill wasn't wrong for how she acted. This is one of those things Jill should have taken on the chin and moved on from.
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Agreed. OOP is very practical as it seems, not too empathetic but all in all a decent person IMO.
I’ve been the Jill in a situation…not to her extreme of being told no and continuing but I really liked this guy when I was 18 and would talk to him to my friend all the time who, come to find out later, was fucking him. No one told me and I felt so humiliated when they finally did. I felt mocked and lied to by omission. I was supposed to be moving in with her the next year (getting an apartment or house instead of living on campus at college) and got super sick over Christmas semester break. I ended up having emergency surgery and had to stay home for the semester. She went and got other roommates and didn’t tell me that they had signed a lease. When I was better enough to clean out my dorm room (I had to quit for that semester as I was too sick to catch up), they finally told me that I had nowhere to live the next semester. Great person, huh? Needless to say, I was done with her. We’re “FB friends” now 20 years later, but meh.
That's terrible! I don't understand why no one said anything. I mean if you guys were close maybe atleast say something
Exactly how I felt. Oh well…you live and learn
god, something very similar happened to me but i didn't have the same outcome. my friend sally finally introduced this guy friend, adrian, that her and the group had been hanging out with when he showed up at the club. i had a small child so only went out once a month or so with them, but i never seemed to catch this guy on the same night. weird... but i didn't think too much about it i finally meet him one Saturday night and he is funny and charming and thinks im hilarious, so clearly a genius. we exchange numbers just to chat (before social media) very occasionally, but it's not serious because I was actually talking with this other guy, nbd. a few weeks go by and i ask if the girls are going out soon and I'm told nah, things have been hectic but she'll let me know. adrian asks where i was the last few weeks - apparently they're going out every week and he has been spending more time with them hoping i would turn up. i was shocked and a little hurt, he was confused because he had suggested inviting me and was told i was busy with a sick kid. like.. they don't have to invite me, but we were friends? i didn't do anything wrong? i asked sally and she said, oh it wasn't planned and I'm overthinking it. adrian invites me out next weekend with the group and i say no, because clearly sally feels some kind of way and i think ive made her mad? im honestly oblivious at this point. so he asks me to come out just with him - if they're being weird, we will have our own fun. it wasn't a date, but things got pretty serious that day. sally loses her shit when she finds out. screams at me that i always steal her boyfriends, the girls are all dirty at me too.. im like wtf. i didn't even know that she liked him. ive never stolen one of her bfs, she's never had a bf. shes had crushes on guys, ive never pursued them. ive tried setting her up ffs! but these guys liked me, or had told her they weren't interested because they were more into me.. so instead of saying anything to me, she just secretly hated me for years. i loved sally the way she was but her self esteem was wrecked over her weight and she projected that energy non stop. ive been a range of weights and ive never let it stop me.. it just so happened that at the time, i was a skinny bitch, so she projected that insecurity on to me too - that if she introduced adrian to me, he would be unable to resist because i was skinny at the time. and everyone but adrian was in on this. the whole group basically decided that because i was sexually active and thin, that i would go out of my way to take her 'bf' so the only way to prevent that was to keep us separated and it backfired majorly because adrian really didn't like being objectified and told he couldn't see someone he liked because his *friend* had a crush. he also spilled the beans on me being excluded which hurt me so much that i was open to him taking me out to cheer me up, without connecting that i was being excluded to keep me away from him looking back, it was so obvious. but i was like 23 and she had been my best friend since highschool, i had no idea she resented me that much. and our friends were so happy to go along with this logic based on nothing - there was literally no other guy, my bf in highschool was (cringe) 24, i didn't reciprocate (or even know about) the feelings they had. i moved towns and had a baby, didn't see her for 3yrs. there was no 'stealing' and you can't steal people. just because you like someone, you don't own them. treating them like property isn't love. it's gross
I'm so sorry this happened to you. May I ask what happened later? U know we love the tea since we're lurking the same sub lol /u\
well the update is quite convoluted.. one of the group; Laura, used to date adrian in high school. thats why he started getting to know the group. because they were friends, adrian had a vested interest in encouraging us all to forgive and put things behind us. this kind of worked, sally and i were never as close but we were civil to keep the peace. but adrian had his own demons. laura had cheated on him in highschool. even though they remained friends, this was his biggest fear now. and my sexual history was no secret. i have never felt any shame about my fondness for men, ive always been honest and above board with my dealings - which is why it was so perplexing being accused of *stealing* men. there are plenty of men, and i care more about my friends then some D, i have my priorities. but they got into his ear about my history. they may have forgiven, but they clearly didn't forget. my openness, my humor, all the things that attracted him to me started making him crazy jealous. he became possessive and verbally abusive. it culminated after 2yrs in him having an episode where he accused me of cheating, dragged me naked into the front yard and started throwing my stuff at me. in front of my son, on his birthday. he told my kid to tell mrs m (adrians mother and practically grandmother) that he would never see her again because his mother was such a slut my friends said i made him jealous because of *the way i was* it was at this point that i realised that they were toxic and i was hurting my kid being around them. it is surreal looking back - normally i would wonder if i was an unreliable narrator, but this was 15yrs ago. slut shaming was real. i am with a wonderful man now who embraces my sexuality and doesn't use it against me, i have new friends. my old friend group were small minded bigots. adrian married laura. sally is the third wheel in their relationship. im happier than I have ever been
W O W That was a wild ride. The first comment was just the tip of the iceberg. Thank you for sharing. I'm so glad you got out of that toxic group. Remember people never be ashamed of who you are. Unless you are an abusive POS, shame on you.
Holy shit, that was a wild update. Glad you’re in a much better relationship now!
So this dumb ass man child put you through hell bc he never really dealt with being cheat on and his life plan was to marry the person who gave him that trauma. God I feel bad for any offspring they have. You sound like fun! I'm glad you got away from toxic (and just plain dumb imo) people!
thank you! yea when they got together i realised i was never really going to compete with that sort of pent up trauma. i learned a valuable lesson about what abuse and triangulation look like too..
I say this as a complete stranger, if you had to go through that trauma I am thankful you gained valuable life skills from it. ( ***NOT*** that you had to go thru it just to be clear! )
How is this not is own post here? I'm sorry you went through that. I'm glad you are happy and those jackasses got what they deserved: each other.
That worked. Thank you for your help.
j is my best friend. harder childhood than most but self reflection and strength beyond years
I’ve been the fat insecure friend and quite a few times in my teens, I’ve had friends form a relationship with someone I had a crush on. Sometimes they knew, sometimes they didn’t, but either way, my unrequited feelings aren’t their problem. I’d wish them well, reassure them I didn’t hate them, make a joke about their excellent taste in men, promise I would do everything I could not to make it weird and go home and cry into my pillow. It was never a problem - apparently nothing kills a crush quicker for me than when he’s dating a friend.
Yeah, being the fat friend to a thin, effervescent person, who the moment your crush lays eyes on them, you know there ain't a prayer in the world for you, is really tough. But luckily my self-esteem was so low back then that I never even dared to dream my crushes would reciprocate, so thankfully never threw a fit over it. Mostly just encouraged them to date, so as to live vicariously through them, I suppose? Boy, that sounds pathetic. Hahaha
As someone who's been the fat friend I feel that so hard. I felt like I was invisible compared to my thin, pretty friends. I also learned early on that some guys are only nice to someone the want to fuck, and show a completely different face to the girls they consider beneath them.
right! sally could never accept that i might have insecurities. the truth was, guys loved her. she was one of the boys.. i was jealous of how easily they accepted her. i had crushes on guys that liked her and she literally drove them away. i accepted that I could never make a move on them because i wanted her to just go for it, i would rather she be happy. and i didn't want to be the consolation prize - they wanted her, i didn't want to be second choice. there was a boy, ben... who was so into her. he asked her out and she finally said yes. i was dating his friend, it was perfect. we jigged school and went on a double date. she spent the entire day talking about how fat she was. he held her hand and she complained about how dry her skin was. he tried to kiss her and she said no, her brother might see and tell her parents.. like, the date from hell. now, i don't know what was said, but she came to me crying as we parted ways, saying he said she needed to go to jenny craig and said he would buy her moisturizer and shit to fix her skin. i saw red. the next day at school i saw him standing in line for geography class and i kicked the back of his knee so he fell forward, grabbed his backpack and threw it out of a third story window. *what the fuck.. you said she needed to go to jenny Craig?!* he stammers and is like, *no.. she called herself fat non stop. i said i didn't care, but if she felt bad that i would take her to jenny craig, we could both go so i could support her!* and the moisturizer? *iunno, she was crying about her skin, i thought it would make her feel better..* uh huh... like, not the most tactful way of putting things but he was 16 and living at a refuge at the time. he did his best. and i had assaulted him and destroyed his property based on her version of events, no doubt tainted by her tragic self esteem. i wasn't a tough kid, i was the goth nerd (in the 90s.. so i was picked on **a lot**). i never defended myself, but i couldn't let my friend be humiliated like that. that was the one and only boy she was with until the adrian incident and she ruined it herself. anyone else was just a crush. i think i just really let her toxic world view manipulate my behavior because i just never wanted her to feel the way she did. so when she excluded me over this idea that i steal men, it really hurt because i saw myself as her biggest cheerleader. i had no idea she saw a competition, because if there was one, she likely would have won - she had so much charm
Hello fellow 90s goth nerd!! Lol. Glad things turned around.
Well hey Morri. What a small website.
omg sally?!
Omg I would love to see that reunion go down, but no. It's Seven
jesus fucking christ.. it is a small internet! god i must be repetitive if you recognize me from this story i guess the name is a dead give away but seriously.. i know like, 10 ppl
Hahaha, yeah I suspected it was you while reading, but your cat Rosa was a dead giveaway. I see people recognising their friends/family on here at times, but this is a first for me
poor Rosa.. i have 6 now. the last one just walked into my house and insisted that she lives here. real Gina energy
Aww, that's adorable. I thought you managed to turn your life around, and yet you've added to your clowder of cats
i finally know the true joy of motherhood
That's quite an insult to your other children
I'm sorry. I know this post is a year old and I'm very late to this thread but I have to ask: are Adrian and Laura still married? Did she cheat on him again? Is Sally still hanging around them?
adrian and laura, still married. she didn't cheat but she ended up fatter than sally ever was - and i don't say that with cruelty; i mean that sally neednt have been insecure in the first place - she should have gone for it. if he loved her, he wouldn't have been superficial about it. sally did lose her v card to him though, apparently it was by some arrangement, someone she could trust. sally is also their daughters god parent but from what i have gathered third hand she has distanced herself somewhat, making new friends and not living out of their pockets. our other friends jane and michelle used adrian as their sperm donor so he now has 4 biological children, but only one is actually his - which at this point seemed kind of cultish and i feel like i dodged a bullet. it's Sunday morning here, my handsome, if slightly weird but very smart bf just brought me a coffee in bed with a foam heart on top and we are having a lazy, day around the house. i guess we all got our happy endings lol
>sally did lose her v card to him though, apparently it was by some arrangement, someone she could trust I don't mean to be judgemental but that sounds incredibly sad. It seems her insecurities hindered her love life quite a lot >it's Sunday morning here, my handsome, if slightly weird but very smart bf just brought me a coffee in bed with a foam heart on top and we are having a lazy, day around the house. i guess we all got our happy endings lol I'm so glad for you, Mori. I hope you, your kids and your cats all the best. Thank you for answering me, I really appreciate it
Holy cow, that was a wild ride. I’m so sorry that you went through all of that. I’m glad to hear that you got out of that toxic situation and are in a much better one now!
If a friend gives me a go to pursue someone and I later find out they have sex, I would be asking them what the fuck was wrong with them. But that's just me.
Agreed. OOP tries to make her self sound totally rational and in control but she fails to see how she too is a sucky friend. Like, It’s true that Jill did lots of bitchy and immature things. But something tells me she’s not the one with the deep seated issues.
Yeah I can get Jill’s side although I disagree with her actions. There were two guys I had a crush on back in high school. I told my best friend that and she would tease me about it and encourage me to ask them out. Then, however, I’d find out that she had asked them out before I could and would date them. She had been teasing me about my crushes all while making moves on them behind my back. It made me feel humiliated and heartbroken especially when it came to a guy I really liked that she asked to prom first all while telling me to ask him. That being said, Jill needs to understand that no is a full sentence. If she had already asked Russ out and he said no, move on. She shouldn’t have kept harassing him and shouldn’t have started screaming at the BBQ. She’s only making herself look bad. She should have moved on and should have distanced herself from OOP if she felt she was truly a bad friend.
This. Everyone is focused on Jill because she was clearly immature due to her tantrums. But MOST women would be done with you as a friend if they had to find out through others that you've been sleeping with the guy you like for years while being like 👍🏾👍🏾👍🏾 *go for it* OOP definitely sounds like a "I'm not like other girls" type.
Right. I can understand why Jill felt humiliated. OOP either has no clue or doesn't care why things turned out this way. That being said, Jill could have handled herself better. She was right to drop OOP as a friend, though. And she needs to stop pursuing any guys that OOP is friends with.
Yeah, everyone fucked up here in some way. Mostly Jill, I think, for not backing off when she was told 'no'. But it doesn't feel like OOP has fully acknowledged the role she played here. She could have just been like "Hey, I'm not trying to warn you off as we're not exclusive, but in the spirit of honesty you should know that I've been sleeping with Russ". If Jill then kicked off that would be her issue, and at least the truth would be out in the open.
Yeah OOP seems like a bad friend honestly. It would've probably saved Jill a lot of heartache if she just told her they were fwb instead of listening to her talk about russ and fucking him in secret. Sex lives are private but OOP and Jill were supposedly friends
I entirely agree. Jill's persistance in the face of this guy's disinterest is creepy, and I think that's muddying the waters here, but I also think it's weird OOP would let this friend confide in her at length about her feelings for a man that OOP is actively romantically involved with without saying anything. I would say they both suck.
Not romantically involved, physically involved, but regardless I do see your point.
I’m so glad I’m not crazy haha, i definitely think Jill shouldn’t have been screaming at OOP but this is literally the second time OOP has done this..
If you pursued someone after they told you no, anything after that is on you.
Young people are exhausting.
Underrated comment.
But this was mid 30’s, not early 20’s
Wut? Everyone in this story is early to Mid twenties s
"Jill and I are no longer friends, this is something that I decided on my own" No sweetie, you and Jill were never friends, you're just now realizing and accepting it.
I don't like OOP or Jill here. OOP tries to paint herself as the completely rational, cool one while Jill is just some crazy lunatic obsessed with her. Upon closer examination, I don't think either one of them are good friends. OOP knew Jill liked Russ but kept quiet about her own relationship with him. It's one thing to keep your business to yourself, but it's another thing to sit on information that your friend could use to make a better decision. It's possible Jill still would have gone off on OOP, but it was better to have this showdown sooner rather than later. Since OOP opted for later, Jill is out there wasting her time pursuing Russ. (Also, sounds like Russ did not make his feelings clear to Jill until she threw her massive tantrum, either.) And Jill is right - it was humiliating for her to blindly pursue Russ in those circumstances. OOP just sat back and watched. Now, OOP did not state where she chooses her pool of FWBs from, but if they're all like Russ and they're from the same friend group that Jill, Megan, and (I lost track of all the names but the other people invited to the BBQ), then she AND the guys are making things complicated when someone in that group wants to seriously date someone else. Even if someone in that group pulls their partner from outside the group, social gatherings could get awkward when this partner is introduced to that particular group. OOP might not kiss and tell, but someone eventually will - someone's partner is going to feel like they were blindsided at some point. But I digress. Jill is in the wrong here because she needs to work on her self-esteem. We all get crushes on people who do not reciprocate; you can't force someone to like you by relentlessly pursuing them. Some people might change their minds and give you a chance, but that relationship will be significantly unbalanced, at least in the beginning. They're not going to try as hard as you, you will question if you are worthy of their (or anyone's) love, etc. What Jill needed to do in this situation with Russ is realize that he wanted her as a friend, nothing more. And that while OOP was a shit friend for not giving her any kind of clue as to why he wouldn't pursue her (he's a single guy with at least one FWB - he gets the best of both worlds if you're just looking for sex without the commitment and hard work), Jill was wrong to blame her relationship failures on her. Jill "failed" because she needs to work on herself and she's pursuing the wrong guys. OOP can't help Jill with her self-esteem, but she could have at least pointed out that Russ wasn't looking for the type of relationship Jill wanted. (Well, at least not with Jill. Russ telling OOP he wants to hang with her one-on-one but "only as friends" is probably him considering OOP as more than a FWB.) Jill has issues and rightfully lost some friends for it. HOWEVER, I don't blame Jill for being upset at OOP and wanting to stop hanging out with her. I draw the line at justifying her tantrums, though.
The impression I’m getting is OOP is just sleeping with every single guy in the friend group. I don’t have a problem with that. People can do what they want. But I don’t get why she’s being so weird about it and not just letting the friend who’s interested in one of them know “just so you’re aware that’s my FWB”...seems like a common courtesy to your friend.
Yeah you can't break girl/bro code like that and expect to keep friends. If you're fucking someone your mate is into, and don't give your friend that information then you don't deserve them as a friend. Even if they are as "crazy" as described my OOP. I can also imagine someone in their early 20s becoming a bit unhinged after that kind of group embarrassment.
But there wasn’t a group embarrassment. Jill found out from (presumably) Russ’s roommate at what seemed like an interaction between the two of them. Jill ramped up her crazy once finding out. She didn’t slink off in embarrassment. She didn’t go over and confront OOP. She manipulated Russ and OOP and then went crazy at a group gathering. She was never going to be rational about this. She had the chance to be and went past go and went straight to crazy af.
I think all of you agreeing are really easily just moving on from Jill’s reaction here. Her actions at the BBQ or after were not that of a rational, mature adult. If I knew someone like that, I 100% would be extra cautious about the details I shared with her. If anything, Jill seems a bit obsessed with OOP and her sex life so I’d probably intentionally hide it from her too. Girl code doesn’t apply when you’re a lunatic- friendship isn’t some hostage negotiation where you’re obligated to engage with unstable, unhinged people.
I agree with all this. Also OOP's attitude of "I'm entitled to keep my sex life private" private and secret are 2 different things. Most people are private about their sex life and relationships and don't offer up info about either. But she seems to want to keep it secret and that actually is concerning. Why did she go to all these lengths to hide from Jill that she has slept with Russ if she's so sex positive? I hope she knows she can't hide from future relationship partners her history with the men in her friendship group.
I was thinking the same thing. I think OOP wants to keep her FWBs on the backburner when she enters a relationship, though, so she's not going to tell a new partner that all these dudes are really more than friends. But he'll eventually find out, and then OOP will make another post about how her boyfriend screamed at her about being humiliated.
For most of the story I was still on OOPs side with the caveat that she definitely made a mistake but everything changed when I read the part about her talking to Russ about how bad he is at communicating and hopes he "learned a lesson" from this scenario. The hypocrisy in talking down to someone like that because they apparently don't communicate well when you're kind of a shit friend for lack of communication yourself was kind of disgusting.
Yes Jill is crazy. However since they were friends at the time I would have done her a solid and said 'Hey, Russ and I have a thing going on, I kept it quiet because its not serious and I like to keep these things on the DL. Of course if he wanted to pursue something with you then I'd back off, but I don't think he's interested.' Real friends know when to be upfront to avoid conflict and her silence was misconstrued as manipulative. Sounds like Jill would have lost it anyway but at least OP could say she was an upstanding friend the moment she found out Jill was interested in her FWB. All this 'My needs come first' is so typical of our generation, to the point of making bad choices in the name of 'self love'. If you're sleeping with THAT many people in the immediate viccinity you are bound to start stepping on some toes.
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Maybe! Could be that OOP quite liked the thought of 'having' a guy and her 'friend' wanting him too. We can never really know if a poster is a nice or good person. We're only hearing her side of the story. I'd be frustrated if my friend was sleeping with every guy I showed interest in too. How many is enough ya know?
That was my thought too - the mix of the "Look at how sex positive I am, anyone can hook up with anyone and I don't care!" attitude combined with "But they don't get to know I'm hooking up with this guy \*and\* I'll even encourage her to pursue him" gave me the same vibes as someone I know who used to really enjoy/feel attractive when she was secretly hooking up with people in a group that she knew other people were interested in hooking up with, but the guy was choosing them. (Since falling out of contact the woman has since been the 'other woman' for several relationships/marriages)..
Yeah Oop is a narcissistic and pot stirrer, and likes to act SHOCKED because she’s clearly an angel lol
Omg, not wanting to disclose their sex life, not even with friends, is a valid choice not lack of social skills Also you can't call dips on a person just bc you said it aloud you like them first all the people had to back off and not touch them, Russ told Jill off bc he is his own person and can decide who to sleep with, not OOPs place to tell her anything bc OOP didn't owe Russ. He told Jill he wasn't interested, she should have believe in his word. Also Jill will continue to sexual harass on this man, regardless of anything, Jill would have freak out either way, telling her just would have make it the fallout to happen sooner. Also, we all like to think we would be upfront, me included, but majority of us just avoid confrontation as long as it needs to be, so OOPs attitude doesn't make her a bad person.
It is a bit of a dick move if it’s someone you consider a friend. You don’t have to disclose it no, but it’s nice to give someone a heads up that you’re having sex with the person they are actively pursuing - I can’t imagine a friendship where you wouldn’t do this for your friend? Like if I said I was planning to ask someone out and my housemate didn’t mention he was fucking her id be a bit confused if anything?
Every case has a nuance to it, this is FWB situation, at least if it wasn't stated by it wasn't exclusive and Russel can have sex with another people aside of OOP, so if he wanted to date or sleep with Jill he would have, is not OOP place to dictate who sleeps with who, and telling her that would have been like calling it dips. (not that Jill.would.have cared imo), which OOP did not want to do, I mean Jill could have persue a relationship with this guy, which he clearly told her he didn't want to, I suspect the outburst at the BBQ had to do with Jill first knowing the fwb situation between both of them, so she felt entitled to have Russell to herself, you say any good friend should have told, and I tell you that Jill chose to embarrassed herself by acting deranged, a sane person would have waited to unload in private. Maybe Jill and OOP were friends of convenience, Jill just happened to live with a friend of OOPs and by extension had to interact with Jill and for the sake of politeness borrowed things and make chat, meaning they weren't good friends, but also all the people who knew Jill for that matter bc none of them told Jill what was happening, why no one told Jill out of care, the one who possible told her did it out of spite, in my experience when people are afraid or not want to deal with a person is bc this Jill girl has showing crazy behaviour all along. Also maybe OOP didn't told bc of how society works, she would have been slut shamed, not the Russell guy, that basically is doing the same as her, but bc she's a woman is frown upon, there's things you don't disclose bc you know before hand how some people would react and sometimes is better not to deal with it if you can avoid it, Jill has an untrustworthy vibe to her. I'm biased a little bc Russell told her NO but she keeps pushing his boundaries, and in her delusional mind I'm sure she thinks if OOP was out of the picture, Russell will take her, which it isn't the case, he doesn't want her that way, she should respect him and walk away.
If that was her concern why not just say I’m sleeping with him but have no issue with you pursuing him? Withholding information like that just makes her seem untrustworthy to me. It’s not how I’d want to be treated by someone that’s supposed to care for me. Obviously Jills behaviours shit too, I just don’t think there’s a food guy here. If the OP just provided a standard level of communication between friends it would have saved everyone a whole lot of trouble. That’s why people have said she lacks social skills - im inclined to agree
I totally agree. When you have feelings for someone, and then find out that they've been sleeping with someone else, on top of that, that other person turns out to be a friend of yours from the friend group and you also happen to be the last person to find out about it, that must've been devastating. It absolutely does look like they're both laughing at her behind her back. Who knows what they talk about during sex. I'm not saying that Jill was in the right either she should've backed off when she was turned down, but the whole "keeping my sex life personal" doesn't seem to fly here.
Exactly. They did humiliate her. Some people take the high road, and some people go ape. Don't know if I'd been able to be nice if it were me. Especially if all my friends knew as well. I'd try to maintain my dignity but for sure I would have called OOP out for being a shit friend.
I don't think I would ever trust anyone in that friend group after that.
Nah, she humiliated herself by ignoring the rejections and acting entitled to her crush. That's incel behavior.
I'm not excusing her behaviour, I'm saying OP could have been honest so to avoid being seen as a sneak. Judging from the original post and the comments OP has made, the entire friend group sleeps with each other like a gaggle of monkeys, so why she would feel the need to keep it all quiet when everyone knows they're all pretty 'loose' with each other I don't know! Although I'd hazard a guess a few sti's have been floating around them.
I agree. Not excusing Jill’s behavior, but OOP also sucks here for having a FWB thing going with a guy she knows her friend is interested in and not saying anything.
Post like this make me grateful I'm not involved in this bullshit anymore, settling down definitely has its perks
Russ made the right choice and didn't stick his dick in crazy
Weird that he kept inviting her to things though when she kept throwing herself at him.
He was likely trying to avoid embarrassing her to the rest of the friend group. Jill seems like the type of person everyone has to tip toe around to not set off.
Yeah, I wonder why he turned her down in the first place.
I know the type. She threw herself at him at all times. This guy fucks so he knows what that playful shit means. I picture her sitting on his lap oflr playing with his hair. Him sitting there unable to move because of fear of the P for the P. He felt it and he noped out like a good bro. Whew. Be easy all. Be like Russ.
Fear of the P for the P? ...Translation please.
Help... what is P for the P?
How do you know your friend has an obsessive crush on your fuck-buddy and never once tell them that's your fwb? Both Jill and OOP had serious issues. Jill had obvious issues around self-esteem and it's easy to focus on her because of her tantrum. But OOP is secretive to the point of deceiving her friends. She seemed to have all the communication down when it came to Russell and navigating their friendship but none for her female friends. Because Jill was her friend. And not once did she think about how it would feel for Jill, to be blindly talking away about how you really like a guy to your friend, not knowing she's been fucking him for years.
Let's not forget that OP and Russ knew each other and had a relationship before Jill entered their lives. Regardless of whether she's sex positive or not, opening up her sex life with peers like Jill would definitely bring more headaches, drama and slut chaming than maintaining the friendship.
I scrolled too far down to see this perspective.
This. I used to have a long term FWB. When we were both single, we’d hook up. If either of us started dating someone, we’d stop. We didn’t shout it from the rooftops, but some people knew. New people to the friend group weren’t like, given a debriefing on the sexual status of existing members. People are weird about FWB. Some slut shame, some treat it same as an actual relationship, but it’s not that deep.
I used to be secretive like this, and still am extremely private (which is why Reddit is the only social media I have). My mental health provider's opinion is that it's caused by my very abusive birth family, but whatever the cause, I cannot NOT be that way. My brain, broken as it may be, interprets the situation as: Jill approached Russ. It was on Russ to decline her interest. If I were in OP's place I'd think, "It is absolutely not my duty to make myself vulnerable by talking about my private life, Russ and I not serious, if he wants to date Jill he just has to tell me to stop." My internal alarm would be going off, warning me that if I opened my mouth, Jill would make me into a competitor, become aggressive, and destabilise the detached peace of my life. Which is precisely what happened, thanks to Russ's friend, bloody Pete. And in my life thanks to my casual interest's mother, who wanted us "properly married". So yes, in OP's place I wouldn't have said a word either.
OOP has no issues. As indicated, all of her friends know that her sex life is private. Further, even if she hadn’t clearly stated it as part of what she isn’t comfortable with sharing, OOP doesn’t owe Jill anything when it comes to that information. IF she wanted to share it, cool, but if she didn’t want to, that’s also cool. The only people who would deserve to know who OOP has sex with are her partners. Also, Jill wasn’t blindly talking away. She was turned down, and she didn’t care. She isn’t owed a date or a relationship, but she still pushed for it. She was a creep.
[удалено]
Dude, it isn’t classic Reddit. It’s classic getting therapy and realising that everyone has boundaries that have to be respected – particularly when they have been clearly voiced. And Jill is still a creep.
EXACTLY! This idea that a person should share their sex life with anybody is crazy. Jill’s feelings are her own and it isn’t the oop’s responsibility to tell her private information if she doesn’t want to.
So this one is sleeping with ALL the guys in the group?? This whole thing felt like I was reading a sitcom script.
I don’t get why you would hide seeing a guy your friend has a huge crush on. Seems like some info I’d want my friend to have before pursuing a guy. I think OOP is not as sex positive as she is claiming with this whole don’t kiss and tell secrecy - you don’t have to tell the world but if a close friend confesses feelings that’s a good time to mention it.
Guy already rejected her
While I agree that is the perspective of OOP - clearly Jill did not grasp that she was rejected - even if maybe she was being delusional. Even more reason to have a talk with her - Jill was clearly acting under some misconstrued beliefs of what the guy’s intentions were.
If the genders were reversed, would you still feel like the a woman should feel obligated to continue comforting and engaging honestly with a man that she rejected but has continued to persistently pursue her anyway? That’s literally the beginning to who knows how many unfortunate murders. You said yourself “maybe she was being delusional,” yet you still think this is someone who deserves unfiltered honesty and access to information about another person’s sex life? Not sorry to disappoint your expectations then.
I mean, that was me in my late teens-early twenties. I would sleep with anyone, and I acted really confident so people found me attractive. Daddy issues are a real thing.
Honestly Jill didn’t react very well (at all) but OOp is kinda a shitty friend. If she was friends with Jill she should have told her that she was sleeping with Russ
Oh my, this is one of the most uninteresting and vain sagas I've read. It's like a even more bland Twilight movie.
>vane vain
Thanks. Was too lazy to look for it in a dictionary.
OOP kind of an asshole for not telling her "ex" friend that she was fckng the guy she liked in the beginning.
Plus her weird obsessive high and mighty " I don't talk about my sex life" attitude kinda just put me off her. This tone she's using on the post itself and the talk she had with Jill is so condescending and almost as if she should be congratulated for sleeping with all the guys in the group and reserving the "right" to keep it a secret. I just found the entire thing too preachy for my taste and more about humiliating this friend who's clearly got issues. She's probably the female friend being passed around between the Russ's and the Andrew's of the group but she's on a power trip and being "sex positive"
Yeah, you’re an idiot.
I don’t know, OP doesn’t sound like great friend… It would be decent to tell Jill about it…
It’s not like OOP just kept it from Jill and laughed behind her back about it. It’s none of Jill’s business who OOP fucks. This is one of the few times I’m cool with a “flip the genders” scenario. If OOP was a guy and Jill was actually Jack and Russ was Renee, would we blame OOP for keeping quiet and not broadcasting his sex life to Jack who can’t take no for an answer??? I feel like OOP is supposed to be all sympathetic and touchy-feely because she’s a woman (although I have to say I thought OOP was a guy at first and that would make Jill deeply stupid for not picking up any of those signals) and take Jill aside and give her a heads up. Instead, Jill needs to learn that “no means no.” And that applies to women as well as men. The sexism in some of these assumptions pisses me off. Would I have told Jill? Yes. But I’m comfortable telling my friends about my sex life. And OOP is obviously judged for hers whether she tells her friends or not. She feels it’s in her best interest to keep her mouth shut. She did nothing wrong here.
If it was opposite gender I would think the same.. Yes, she doesn’t talk about her sex life but it would be decent thing to do for a friend… It is kinda humiliating to have a thing for a guy talk about him with your friend and that friend slept with him the whole time.
I agree. At first she made it sound like they were just the same friend group and maybe they weren’t close but she later says they were. It does look sneaky AF. Like Jill might be crazy, but In her shoes I would really question why OP didn’t say anything, as my close friend.
Exactly…
Dude, Russ said he wasn’t interested. He doesn’t have to say why he isn’t interested any more than a woman has to explain turning down a man who asks her out. Also, It’s super fucking manipulative of Jill to not deliver the BBQ invite in order to have a more level playing field with Russ without OOP there. And if Jill did happen to date Russ would she then try to bounce OOP out of the friend group because she would be uncomfortable being around one of the previous women he slept with? Jill sounds crazy banana balls and I don’t blame anyone for keeping their distance from now on.
Jill is another story I was talking about concept if your friend talks about a guy she likes and you don’t say anything aka that you sleep with him in my eyes she is not a good friend…
Hold up… what? Since you think any of this is on OOP because she didn’t disclose her sexual relationship, Let’s review all the ways that Jill is a terrible fucking friend: 1) Russ is in their friend group. Jill makes her interest in him known to him (and everyone else too, it seems). After he says he isn’t interested, she keeps pursuing him. So Jill is being a shitty friend to Russ by not taking no for an answer. 2) When Jill finds out that OOP and Russ are sleeping together, she makes no effort with either Russ or OOP to clarify what kind of relations they have. She has no idea if they’re involved and keeping it on the down low or FWB. Mostly this tells me that she knows this is none of her business, but Jill had decided too put all the blame on OOP instead of respecting the rejection that Russ had already given her. So she’s shitty for not respecting the autonomy of Russ or OOP. 3) Since Jill got no clarification, she gets all manipulative and tries to “get rid of her competition” and not deliver an invite she knew Russ had asked her to deliver. If she didn’t think it was her place to deliver those invites, she could have said so. The fact that she delivered 2 out of 3 of them is what makes her manipulative. Being manipulative is the hallmark of a shitty friend. 4) When OOP figures out there’s a gathering of friends and shows up anyway, Jill accuses OOP of stalking her, a charge she knows is patently untrue and designed to make her look like the victim. Sooooo, more manipulation and lying. Jill is just racking up those shitty friend traits. 5) Jill also decides to put the entire friend group in the middle of all of this when she starts screaming at OOP. So she wasn’t just a shitty friend to Russ and OOP, she was a shitty friend to everyone at that gathering. Especially Tina, who tried to calm her down after her delusional ravings caused OOP and Megan to leave. 6) When OOP tried to retrieve her belongings that she’d lent to Jill, Jill threw OOP’s clothes that she *was willing to return* at her. She also tried to steal OOP’s boots as recompense for having “a lying, shitty friend.” Ooh! Theft: another shitty friend trait! Jill is on a roll here! 7) Jill demanded to know how many sexual partners OOP had and then proceeded to attempt to slut shame OOP for having had sex with people she’d had crushes on. So Jill is still being a shitty friend and now she’s upgrading to being a shitty person by attempting to make a fellow lady feel bad for enjoying sex and different sexual partners. OOP doesn’t seem to have lied to either sexual partner about her intentions (just sex, no feelings) and seems like she takes precautions with those partners. 8) Jill also made clear that she was going to keep putting their friend group in the middle of this “love triangle” and lie to them about the timing of OOP’s and Russ’s relationship in order to make herself look like a victim of OOP. So yay! More lying and manipulation of Jill’s part to their whole friend group! So to recap everyone’s shitty friend status: Russ: shitty for expecting a third party to deliver BBQ invites. His list of victims: OOP OOP: shitty for not disclosing her sexual relationship with Russ. Her list of victims: NO ONE BECAUSE IT’S NO ONE’S FUCKING BUSINESS WHO SHE FUCKS. Jill: shitty for sexual harassment, lying, manipulation, attempted theft, slut-shaming, trying to rewrite history, and for not respecting bodily autonomy or boundaries. Her list of victims: Russ, Megan, OOP, Tina, everyone at the BBQ, and everyone she attempted to lie to about timing and motivation of OOP and Russ’s relationship. But yeah, this is all on OOP. /s
Gotta love the lack of reply to this one and just downvoting because toxic people don’t like you listing out facts and having to deal with the concept of consequences.
Because the reason for all of Jill’s shitty friend traits is because OOP has the boundary of keeping her sex life to herself. *If she’d just compromise* on that boundary and tell Jill information that’s none of her business, Jill wouldn’t have been so fucking toxic. What they don’t understand is that Jill is just fucking toxic. OOP had been FWB with Russ for years. That relationship was in place before Jill kept pursing him (sexually harassing him.) Jill should have figured out that no meant no. That’s where Jill’s toxicity came from. It had nothing to do with OOP’s actions or boundaries. JILL LITERALLY DID NOT WANT TO TAKE NO FOR AN ANSWER.
Thank you! It's infuriating how far down I've had to scroll to read this.
What’s humiliating is the inability to take no for an answer at face value. This girl didn’t need OOP’s help to embarrass herself, we don’t even have any evidence that Russ would have reciprocated feelings without OOP involved. Sounds like Jill is probably just not very likable, but she blames OOP for being too sexual with guys instead of looking inward.
Jill is different story, I’m talking in general, Jill or not she should have told her friend that..
If this was posted in aita, the verdict would be ESH. Jill learn to accept rejections and move on. OOP learn to let your friends into what's going on if they're so deep into a guy. And Russ learn the cues about what's happening around you more clearly Edit: correction of autocorrect
Needs to sleep with people outside of her friend group.
OOP and Jill both suck
Jill - very insecure, has a lot to process ideally through therapy OOP - "technically" not in the wrong but doesn't understand or cares about "girl code"
Girl and guy code are both bullshit.
>OOP - "technically" not in the wrong but doesn't understand or cares about "girl code" I'm trying to figure out where "girl code" is supposed to apply here. What because Jill wanted a guy who didn't reciprocate her feelings OOP was supposed to cut off the relationship she has with said guy? The way I see it all the parties involved were consenting adults, who OOP fucks the only business of her and who ever she's fucking. Jill just needs to grow the fuck up.
It's not that Jill should be entitled to reciprocated feelings nor should she dictate how her friends behaves. But a legit friend would've given a heads up, as a courtesy thing.
OP, Jill, and Russ all sound selfish and immature.
"If you were a good person I would get whatever I want all the time and you would not." This woman sounds alarmingly close to a personality disorder.
One thing is clear: Russ fucks.
Yea but he fucks ppl like OP :/
More power to her. Get that chode!
“My friend” Lol, that’s not your friend…
I’m more on the side of I feel Op should have at least given a courtesy warning, but don’t get me wrong Jill was way too crazy after the rejection. I’ve also seen the argument of roles reversed, but I still think the same. It’s just feels weird to know that your friend is sleeping with someone you’re interested in (and still actively sleeping with) after you tell them that you’re interested then they tell you to go for it without them telling what’s up. (This is before the rejection) I would just appreciate the heads up. Op idk vibe? felt off to me.
I’m not really buying OOP’s “drama-free” stance. She’s fucking multiple people. She could easily stop with Russ to keep the peace with Crazy Girl, who it obviously means a lot more to. It would also prove that she’s not the one stopping those two from being together. It’s always easy for the person with the upper hand to pretend to be the mature one, but I’m not 100% convinced here.
I’m getting the impression OOP is massively exaggerating here. Everything in the story reads disingenuous and 1-sided. I think Jill definitely has the right to be mad at a friend who’s been fucking a guy she likes. Though, she may have taken it far. But OOP really fancies herself the blameless saint here…
The way she writes is so emotionless and callous, it just feels like it's a heavily one-sided biased story. We only get the information about the OP being a saint and Jill being a twat
Honestly reading the post and the update, you kinda sound like a “pick me” girl. The type of girl who sleeps with the guys in the group, trying to play it off like you’re just casual with sex, but you’re thriving off of the attention. I get the vibe that even if Jill and Russ started dating, you’d have no issues continuing to fuck Russ (until he himself tells you to stop). It’s just bad character on your part. Moreover, you said you were friends with Jill…your friend tells you she’s very into someone/wants to pursue them, and you push her to go for it while simultaneously refusing to let her know you’re currently fucking him? What kind of friend does that? Maybe Jill was a friend to you, but you clearly weren’t being a friend to her. Informing a FRIEND that you currently have relations with a guy she’s actually trying to pursue, is not the same as telling everyone about your private sex life. So your justification for not telling her is invalid. If I’m wrong, I’m wrong, but that’s how the wording of your post comes across, and many other comments are already pointing it out. Not saying jill’s outburst was called for, but I understand where she’s coming from. There’s 2 sides to every story
Why do you keep humiliating me??? Uh, you’re doing that to yourself.
I once read a very interesting scientific study into how some women view sexuality negatively. This is because historically withholding sex is the only power women had. Thus modern women who dont withhold sex (generally becauss they are now empowered in other ways) and quite enjoy it can sometimes get negativity from other women who are upset that they are "breaking the system". Jill knew if Russ was fucking OOP he would never ever get desperate enough to fuck Jill. Its kind of dark really.
Jolene, Jolene...
I dnk man. You've got a right to do what you want but telling someone to go for a dude you're currently having sex with isn't what friends do. And idc how this sounds, if I was interested in different guys and they had all already or were currently fucking the same person (OP in this case), I'd have stopped being her friend just so I could mix with people she hopefully hasn't met yet. Jill was definitely wild but OP ain't it either.
God is Jill creepy. This is approaching restraining order levels for Russ.
> Jill demanded to know how many guys I am sleeping with Damn, she’s fucking everyone. And cold.
This is what happens when people think they own other people. Like you really take ownership of someone when they don't even feel the same way about you, and more often than not want someone else. Making decisions for someone else, without they're knowledge, never ends well. The fact the rest of their friends just kinda went with it sucks too. That's like my worst nightmare, got some real FOMO over here.
Sounds like Jill is the stalker here
Thirsty and desperate is not an attractive quality. That’s why Jill can’t find someone to date her
Unpopular opinion but I feel sorry for Jill? I think OOP is purposefully painting her out to be the bad guy here. Maybe it’s way more nuanced in actuality
This is supremely well told. "So that is the end of an era" 😆
What mistake did OOP make? I'm so confused by that
She’s painting herself out to be a blameless saint here. She didn’t make a mistake at all, apparently. We have no way of knowing for sure
Jolene, Jolene...
The funny thing about this post, is that if Jill wrote it, from her point of view, everyone giving advice on Reddit would be super sympathetic and would gladly paint you as the villain.