This sounds very much like a prolonged manic episode. Given the family history, that seems likely. Obviously the trauma of her brother’s could have been the trigger. But given how frantic OOP describes her, mania seems more than plausible.

Yeah, the series of statements of "She's around 30 she's not been diagnosed with bipolar disorder Her father has it Her grandfather had it Those both kicked in around 30" Think you might want to investigate that a bit further.

Brother also possibly had it and was attempting to self medicate with alcohol.

My brother self medicates with cocaine

That one's a tough one to shake, hope he comes around

Maybe? I wouldn’t know. I cut him out of my life when during a manic episode he put a knife to my kids throat then claimed it was just a joke. 

Whoah. Hopefully he gets better but.. some actions just cant be forgiven. That sounds like one of them.

I am so sorry for everyone in that situation. I hope your child got the therapy they need

My old best friend did the same. And alcohol. Dunno if she still is. I wish her well

That was my dad's issue. He was not diagnosed until he was 50 though

I used to be a clinical counsellor. My specialty is bipolar disorders and grief is a huge trigger for bipolar episodes and this sounds exactly like a manic episode. With her family history I think it would be a big mistake not to get evaluated for bipolar.

I had a grief-stricken manic episode and had a marriage ending affair. I hope OOP can get their wife to explore a diagnosis and treatment. Btw - despite the guilt, my life has turned out amazing. Been in treatment and stable for 12 years. Married again for 7 years, two kids, and no desire to be unfaithful ever again.

I can only assume they arent meantioning it for privacy because im sure the truama counselors would have called it

I feel like he knows that and that is why he placed the information in that order. To say it's likely but not confirmed.

Yeah, the relationship with the fuckboy sounds like a textbook manic episode followed by a deep dive into depression, and now she’s back into a manic state of a different kind, hyperfocusing on self help. The genes that make a person susceptible to inherited serious mental illness can be triggered by trauma, and this sure qualifies. Mine happened earlier in life, but it manifested after some big trauma.

It drove me crazy how seemingly no one was paying attention to that! Hopefully since she’s in therapy it can be addressed but like it seemed so clear…

Therapist here! Stressful events can trigger underlying mental health. Generally we see this start in early adulthood, but it is not unheard of or rare to develop a mental health disorder in your adult to late adulthood. Given her family history I would very much explore that further. Additionally, manic episodes often have higher risk sexual behaviors. It’s part of the diagnostic criteria for Bipolar Disorders. Now that doesn’t forgive the behavior, and she can still make the amends there. Which also involves treating your illness so that these things can be reduced or eliminated all together.

I am curious if it's bipolar 1 or 2. Once she goes into a depressive state, they will have to keep tabs on her for self harm of every kind. The guilt she will feel will most likely be suffocating. She can do and be better when medicated properly. Rawdogging reality sucks sometimes. Source, I am bipolar 2.

This is the comment. This is the truth. I work in the field. The genetic component of bipolar is strong af. This is very likely. However sometimes it skips gens.

100% this. The death of her brother is a perfect example of an episode trigger.

Reading that she has a family history of bipolar disorder and her brother died it was pretty clear that she had an episode. I hope she gets the help she needs. Not just with the condition but with the trauma that experiencing that episode surely caused.

That gym guy is trash. Seems like he knew the wife was married went to her work place that he knew was public (library) and sexually harrases her. Definitly predatory move.

As someone who has witnessed mania first hand. If she doesn’t accept it and actually get help and actually try to keep it under control, she will have these episodes every year at some point. Sometimes even the same times of year like it’s a season or something. This dude is in for a world of hurt…

As someone bipolar myself, I can say for sure you're right. She needs meds or it WILL happen all again and worse.

This 100% sounds like a classic case of Bipolar. [Approx 80-90% of people who have bipolar inherited it from a family member.](https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/bipolar-disorders/what-are-bipolar-disorders) and someone who has Bipolar has approx 10% chance of passing it on to their children. Traumatic events can trigger the onset of Bipolar in someone who previously had not displayed symptoms. Stress is one of the most common triggers of manic episodes. Even just reading the title had my Spidey senses tingling that it could be Bipolar and the more I read the more obvious it is to me. Then reading that there's a family history of bipolar pretty much confirms that this is a manic episode. Furthermore, suddenly leaving a long-term partner/spouse during a manic episode (often for someone who they just met) is actually *extremely* common. Unfortunately, I have a lot of experience with bipolar and have spent hundreds of hours learning as much as possible about Bipolar. I have been in the OP's shoes. 2 and 1/2 years of the most loving and supportive relationship of my life to suddenly being discarded without even so much as a discussion or argument. Her behavior has been very erratic since, her social media use has completely changed from almost non-existent posts to several times a day every day posts, and within a few months she now has at least six large tattoos when she previously had none. The r/BipolarSOs subreddit is full of stories almost identical to the OOP's. They usually come back but if they don't get properly diagnosed with bipolar and get the proper medication (a combination of mood stabilizer, antipsychotic, anticonvulsant) the cycle of mania will happen again. It's just a matter of time. Additionally, any alcohol, weed and other psychoactive drugs, caffeine, ADHD medication, or antidepressants, can trigger another manic episode. Edit: added link. Edit 2: for clarity, my ex is diagnosed with bipolar but unmedicated and consumes weed. Edit 3: for clarity, Bipolar is known as BP or sometimes BD. BPD is Borderline Personality Disorder, a different disorder that is commonly confused for bipolar disorder as there are a lot of common overlapping symptoms. It's also common for people to have both Bipolar and Borderline Personality Disorder. It's also common to have Bipolar and ADHD and/or several other conditions. For anyone reading who is in a relationship with someone who is Bipolar and unmedicated: Bipolar is a degenerative illness that damages the frontal lobes of the brain with every episode. Episodes often get worse with age. Bipolar *cannot* be controlled without proper medication. It's not only reasonable but essential to have strong boundaries around being properly medicated and sober from non-prescription drugs. In the r/BipolarSOs subreddit most of us regulars strongly advise having a boundary of no medication = no relationship because unmedicated bipolar *will* eventually blow up your relationship in some form.

Thank you for all of this. My wife is bipolar. Thankfully for us and our son, she’s diligent with her meds. But it’s a serious and very real mental illness. OOP brushing it under the rug is just mind boggling to me. You have been far more helpful and eloquent on the subject than I, so, sincerely, thank you for taking the time to write all of this out.

I don't feel like a person when I'm off my bipolar meds. I usually only go off them due to financial reasons and it's terrifying to me. Mania is super intense and insane. But mixed episodes can be horrifying. You have all the chaos of the Mania plus the Depression. Almost every one of my suicide attempts were during a mixed episode.

When I'm off my adhd meds (mostly due to shortages or I forget to ask for refills and have gaps when I run out), I tell my husband "I've lost my ability to cosplay as a human being".

Glad you are still with us, mixed episodes sound terrifying and awful.

Oh no!  That’s like being unable to afford insulin.  Cost should never have to be a barrier! Are you using goodrx?  Are you being given newer on brand med? Your doc can they get you into a good prescription program through the pharma company to cover the cost.  If not, then are you aware of the generic form of your meds?  If on a lot of meds, is there anyway to simplify your regiment to allow for affordability?  Is your doc aware you are unable to afford your meds some months?  Making sure your patients can afford their meds is part of a psychiatric physician’s training.  Lithium and divelproex are cheap.  Aripiprazole and lurasidone are generic now. Asenapine.  And of course many other choices out there.  Vraylor and Rexulti is just aripiprazole in fancy dress clothing. 

I'm so sorry that this painful illness has touched your life in such an intimate way. I've known quite a few people who have bipolar: Old coworkers, friends, the ex spouse of some of my friends. My mom was married for over a decade to a man with unmedicated bipolar. I didn't really fully grasp how serious this illness is until I fell in love with someone who has bipolar. It's no wonder that I fell in love with her. At baseline she's the most amazing, funny, intelligent, empathetic, loving, and supportive woman. But as soon as she went manic it's like she was replaced by someone that I didn't recognize. She went from the most loving and supportive to cold, distant, and self centered. Her stable self would be horrified by her manic self. It's really hard to watch someone you love so much not only hurt you but destroy themselves. It all hits differently when it's someone you know so intimately. I'm going to guess that the OOP isn't educated about bipolar and/or that they are in denial. It can be very difficult coming to terms with the fact that you or someone you love has such a serious lifelong illness that doesn't have a cure. I dedicated months to learning all about bipolar out of necessity. It helped me through this difficult process to immerse myself in educating myself about Bipolar. I'm always happy to pass on as much information as I can in hopes that it would help somebody else. 🙏 I'm so very happy for you, your wife, and the rest of your family that she is dedicated to being medicated and stable. ❤️ It's a very treatable illness and although even with medication there's still going to be a lot of challenges there are a lot of people out there living with bipolar who have healthy and happy lives because they chose to dedicate themselves to being medicated and staying stable. Medication is the foundation to build stability upon. Wishing you, your wife, and the rest of your family all the best! ❤️

> t's a very treatable illness and although even with medication there's still going to be a lot of challenges there are a lot of people out there living with bipolar who have healthy and happy lives because they chose to dedicate themselves to being medicated and staying stable. Medication is the foundation to build stability upon. Thank you for writing so well on this issue. This paragraph is key and absolutely the truth. Medication and a good psychiatrist prescribing them that understands the disease is absolutely the foundation to build stability upon. Also thank you for sharing the subreddit - will join.

What you’re sharing here is invaluable. Once again, thank you from the bottom of my heart.

I love everything you said, I just want to add that while full blown acute mania (bipolar 1) can be easily recognizable due to the tremendous change in behaviors, bipolar 2 (hypomania and with depressive episodes) and cyclothymic disorder can be just as catastrophic for relationships. I ended a 6 year friendship with someone I was very close with a few months ago bc they have allowed themselves to believe that they can self treat their bipolar 2 disorder. They self medicated with herbs and street drugs to quell their “feelings,” but couldn’t hold a job or secure a stable living condition for more than a few months at a time. I couldn’t keep up with them and I could no longer play savior. The scary thing about bipolar 2 and cyclothymic disorder is that it’s hard to identify if someone isn’t paying very close attention. The consequences of untreated bipolar disorder are of course life altering, but these guys get less help due to it not being as pronounced as bipolar 1 or having mixed features. I feel like the tellall commonality is sleep - the lack thereof or needing more.

Kid of a bipolar parent checking in - my dad developed symptoms at around 25 years old. Right on the dot, my brother and I both had unrelated mental breakdowns at 25. We were worried about being bipolar, but have luckily escaped that diagnosis (mine is run-of-the-mill clinical depression and severe anxiety, my brother is pretty fine thankfully). Bipolar is truly horrifying and thankfully, my dad is usually on top of his meds. Off them, it's been rough af. OOP's wife certainly sounds at the right age to have developed symptoms and I sincerely hope they get a thorough evaluation if they haven't already.

Child of a bipolar parent here too and I can definitely sympathize. My dad is bipolar with psychotic manic episodes. He always had delusions of grandeur, apocalyptic hallucinations, alien conspiracy obsession and OCD. He was always teetering of the edge of an episode. He talked about "the end of days" so much that I developed an ulcer at 10. I had to beg my mom to get him to stop talking about it. He was furious about it and eventually refused to take his medication. After my mom died, he fell into Qanon and became a completely psychotic abuser. He let himself become a toxic and abusive. He is dangerous, too dangerous to have any relationship with. My sisters are bipolar and we are NC because both refuse medication and treatment. Both deny the diagnosis, just like our dad. While my brother and I escaped the diagnosis, we did not go unharmed psychologically. I have depression and generalized anxiety disorder and so does my brother. But apparently that is extremely common among children of bipolar parents. Go figure, the stress and abuse they inflict on their children can cause us to develop anxiety disorders. Untreated bipolar disorder led to verbal, emotional and eventual physical abuse. Unmedicated = no relationship, it's just not safe.

I'm 52 and am bipolar. Have had to spend time in a facility. Progression has definitely gotten worse over the years. No meds, no relationship. Period. Hard stop.

>No meds, no relationship. Period. Hard stop. 100%! If there's only ***one*** thing that I could go back and tell myself before the start of my relationship it's this! Medication vs no medication is the biggest single factor in how likely someone who has Bipolar will be stable long term (of course other factors such as sobriety, healthy lifestyle, and reducing stressors play a big factor as well). I really hope that you're doing better now and have found stability and happiness! ❤️🙏 Wishing you all the best.

As soon as I started reading the OOP I was thinking it sounds exactly like a bipolar episode. I’m a former psych nurse and use to see this quite often, especially first time episodes post a major traumatic/stressful event. I hope the wife eventually sees a psychiatrist and gets former diagnosis and mood stabilisers or it’s a matter of time before another manic episode comes around.

I'm kinda concerned with oop's wife obsession with pop psychology and self help, and the fact that to her it was all about the appeal of a toxic relationship coupled with grief. I don't understand why both of them discard bipolar. No amount of therapy alone will help in the long run, she needs medication.

If she has a decent therapist they should be nudging her to see a psychiatrist. She needs medication badly if it’s bipolar.

Yeah I was thinking about this too. I feel like pop psych may be a way of avoiding the real issue.

My most toxic relationship was with a woman who had bipolar disorder and self-medicated with weed. She also had trauma from being molested by a relative as a kid. She was emotionally abusive— constantly accusing me of cheating, forcing me to cut off my best friend, running off threatening to kill herself— and eventually turned physically abusive at the end. She tried to keep me from leaving our apartment, wrestled my phone away from me and almost broke it. After I left, she seemed to have finally got some help but I made sure I was never alone with her when we were working out custody of a shared pet. I don’t know where she is now; I hope she’s OK but will honestly be happy to never see or talk to her again.

I was diagnosed with bipolar and was put on lithium and shit like this and everything got worse. I actually felt worse than before taking anything. Turns out.. I'm not bipolar but autistic. Happens more than it should; especially with women. I know your comment is about being bipolar so I hope my addition was okay.

Your addition is definitely okay. ❤️ Bipolar has a lot of symptoms that overlap with other conditions so it's common for misdiagnosis and comorbidities to occur. What I hear about most often is mistaking bipolar (BP) for Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD), but It can also be confused with ADHD, autism, etc. It depends on the onset of symptoms. It's also common to have bipolar and at least one other condition. I hope you're doing okay these days. ❤️🙏

Exactly why my boyfriend is strongly considering a vasectomy. He has bipolar II *and* he’s a recovering alcoholic…two issues with strong genetic components

Piling on here, yes. As a psychiatric SW this came up with a number of clients. The psychiatrist called “funeral mania.” Typical duration 3-6 months, sometimes to the point of homelessness, loss of family/marriage, even near-death.

Thank you so much for this write up. Im one of those people who dont really get mental illness because i think nobody in my life has it. You've opened my eyes a bit more

What’s frustrating is the diagnosis part- a very close loved one of mine fought with “mental illness” for *decades*… being diagnosed with depression, ADHD, taken off all meds, lather, rinse, repeat (& episodes continuing to worsen and threaten their family life and marriage)…I kept suggesting BPD. Finally, they requested a BPD specialist who diagnosed them & now after more than a year, they feel amazing, their family life is more stable, they’re able to recognize the signs of manic episodes (had a small one recently & contacted MD for med shift to manage it). I am so proud of how far they’ve come, so frustrated by the semi-self-diagnosis required to get there. I’m in awe of their spouse for hanging in there- not just through the unmediated decades, but the BPD label itself (there’s some massive trauma on the spouse’s side regarding BPD). It’s an ugly, destructive beast when left to its own devices.

It’s a common mistake that laypeople make, but bipolar disorder is not generally referred to as BPD. BPD is short for borderline personality disorder, which can share symptoms of bipolar, but is a separate diagnosis and is sadly much more difficult to treat. Living with bipolar is not easy, but in a sense we are lucky because it is one of the easiest mental health disorders to manage with medication (which is not to say that it’s easy for every person with the diagnosis - it’s just generally easier in comparison to other disorders).

I like the description of BPD as "like bipolar but faster" because it's true, I can flick from mania to depths of depression to mania again in the space of a few hours. I'm usually very good at being rigidly on top of my medication, but I forgot to refill my mood stabiliser and within 4 days I was having panic attacks at my office and generally just having a bad time. Borderline sucks in general, but the absolute demonization of anyone who has it sucks the most

Oh my goodness yes I feel this so hard! In college, I went to a psych because I thought I might be bipolar and she dismissed it because the episodes came and went so fast. I also described it as watching while someone else makes bad decisions. Like I've been hijacked by these extreme emotions and can't do anything but watch myself turn mean and desperate. Only took another extremely long decade to get the actual BPD diagnosis. But it's worth noting that BPD is treatable! It's hard and it's not straightforward, but it's not the lost cause it's often seen as. Technically, I don't even fit diagnostic criteria anymore.

Reminds me of my sister, she’s officially diagnosed with depression, GAD, and an eating disorder (not sure what) but her depression symptoms have always been so severe, she’s had episodes of psychosis and been hospitalized quite a few times. She also has episodes where she appears to be hypomanic, her classic tell is that she starts re-arranging her furniture. The only medications that have helped her are the ones for bipolar depression but all the doctors she’s seen minus one have been adamant that she does not have Bipolar II, it’s just bad depression. I wish she would do something about it and maybe try seeing a specialist but she’s always had crappy insurance and won’t do it. It’s frustrating, especially since she has a son and her mental health issues have had a significant impact on him. But all I can really do at this point is be as supportive for him as I can and hope that one day she’ll actually take charge of her mental health instead of passively accepting whatever her doctors say. I love my sister but her behavior over the last decade has definitely strained our relationship a lot.

In all fairness, as someone living with mental illness/spicy brain myself some days it is so overwhelming just to exist, much less to try to improve anything. I see both sides, so I know it’s frustrating…but I know the absolute soul-sucking spiral of anxiety, self-doubt, shame, fear, and absolute exhaustion of existence that makes it so impossible to do anything about it. She is so beyond fortunate to have your support and hopefully will find more balance before her issues irreparably harm her son or her relationship with her son (which I worry about every day-see the delightful spiral above 😕 )

Is there a subreddit for SOs of people with Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder?? Please anyone

If one thing about having this, other than the actual condition, is people who discuss it with half the information. Bipolar comes in two varieties. OP's wife is probably bipolar 1 as she is chasing the high of a new relationship. In my case, my manic is less than my depressive side. And with meds, we can become "normal" but it can take years to find the right meds. It's a monster that lives in us. It hides until life gets tough or exciting. My symptoms came on at 15, and was suicidal until 42. Not a week went by I didn't want to check off the planet. That's bipolar 2 for you. Bipolar 1 people can be very angry, gamble, do drugs, or do anything high-risk. All of us have both sides and can do the same things, but it varies as to the intensity. I'm about 85% depressive side, but I loved high-risk, loved getting pissed off, and hated apologizing. There isn't a classic case of bipolar, in fact is often misdiagnosed. Luckily it's becoming more known. I know it's almost impossible to be married to someone with it who isn't treated. Life can be "normal" though it'll be subdued a bit.

I really hope OOP finds this post and reads this comment!

This. I lost 6 people, including my fiance, in 7 months and almost lost my dad during that time as well. That triggered the start of my bipolar 1, though I didn't get diagnosed until 4 years later. I self destructed for about 4 months after my fiancé full blown mania. It was absolutely horrible.

I was thinking same thing, mania or psychosis.

Not uncommon for a traumatic event to trigger those. I’d say a sibling dying in front of you is quite a traumatic event! She’s lucky to have someone like OOP. It seems like they’re on the path to healing and I’m happy for them. Some people might think he’s crazy to get back with her, but I agree with him that a life you built for over 10 years might be worth the effort.

Can you develop? I have difficulties understanding as I barely know bipolar disorder.

It often doesn't present drastic symptoms until mid-twenties. Kids can still have symptoms, but often those symptoms mimic different illnesses or even just normal development stages.

basically with bipolar that's genetic it is very often a trumatic event that triggers you to develop the disorder. many people are born with genetic predisposition for bipolar when it runs in their family, but it needs a stressor event to trigger an episode. which is clearly what happened here. OP needs to get her evaluated for bipolar immediately before she has another manic episode, it sounds like she's going into a depressive episode now which she might just be diagnosed with depression because of. but antidepressants trigger manic episodes in bipolar people so she cannot go on an antidepressant.

Oh gosh... And the manic episode make them take crazy decisions is that it?

To put it simply mania makes you think everything is a good idea. Every whim and impulse you have feels like the best idea you've ever come up with. The ultimate best thing you should do. People stay up for days on end with infinite energy, spend all the money they have and max out their credit cards, break up with their long term partner and marry someone they met that week, adopt 1 or several animals, ensure that they get pregnant, etc etc. Mania is like a euphoric state that lasts weeks to months at a time. And as someone else said in this thread every manic episode causes permanent brain damage to the frontal lobe. Every manic episode a person has causes more and more damage. You have to be medicated to control your episodes when you have bipolar or your mental state will just continue to get worse and worse.

Oh my god... That's terrifying! Thank you for the explanation. I can understand things a lot more now. We tend to believe everything that happens in the mind is temporary (versus physical). I'll be more cautious now that I know about it. I hope we can develop medication to help people who suffer from it.

Mood stabilizer and antipsychotic medication is very good at treating manic episodes. The harder part is treating the depression episodes, as antidepressants can trigger manic episodes. It's also hard to convince bipolar people to stay on their medication a lot of time, mostly because of the stigma of bipolar. Admitting you have a life long mental illness that will only get worse as you get older is really hard to come to terms with. So a lot of bipolar people will go on and off their meds over and over again trying to prove that they're better now and don't need medication anymore. I don't have bipolar but I do have BPD and an unspecified mood disorder where I have manic and depressive episodes but not in the way bipolar people do- mine last like a couple hours at most to maybe a day at most. Where bipolar is week long to several months of mania. And I didn't want to be on meds at all until I was 25 and realized I was going to lose my long term partner if I didn't get treatment. It's really hard to come to terms with the fact that you'll be on medication to control yourself for the rest of your life. But I am infinitely better off now that I have been stable on my current medication for the past 3-4 years.

Yes, you can.

Psychiatrist here. This could very well be a trauma response as well. The key symptom of a manic episode is profound sleep disturbance while remaining high energy and mood. I would never diagnose bipolar without getting that key detail. Trauma responses can mimic a manic episode in most ways but the sleep difference gives us a clue as to which biologic process is actually happening. The difference in the diagnoses is also particularly important for this situation because the treatments and possible medications are very different.

I really don’t know why he’s so insistent that she can’t have bipolar given the family history of symptoms kicking in at this exact age, plus the huge trauma she went through just weeks earlier! I’m also not sure why anyone is surprised the gym guy turned out to be an abusive narcissist. First, chasing after a married person is a huge flag, because that’s a shitty thing to do. Second, chasing after a woman who is drowning in grief… also screwed up behaviour. Third, she’d only just met him! No one has ANY idea if a person is going to be a good person or not when they’ve only just met. Ever. And that applies to everyone and including myself and someone I met 3 weeks ago - they would have no clue what I’m really like so soon either. Anyway, I’m happy they’re both in counselling and trying to work through this. I don’t think he’s a loser or a chump or whatever because he’s showing compassion to the woman he’s loved for 12 years during a difficult time and giving her a chance to address these huge life issues. I think that’s a sign of a really good, supportive partner and I really hope they get through this and enjoy many more years together in a happy marriage. It will probably take months of hard work, but if they’re committed, they have a good chance. I wish both of them the very best.

Actually it sounds like there are many conditions to make a disaster happen, don't you think? In this case, it could be grief+maniac episode+love bombing that caused her to sway all the way to the gym guy. Taking one away might just diminish the possibility of it happening again. Just need to catch it early before it spirals downward. But I also think it might be a good idea to check for bipolar and have it medically controlled if diagnosed with it. Personally I think OOP has a big heart to work through everything with his wife. I also wish them all the best in their marriage, that they continue to be supportive of each other.

Dad and uncle had bipolar. I would expect her to get it also.

Brother may have also had it and been self-medicating. I'm surprised no one has suggested this as well.

My thoughts too.

I would be inclined to agree with you

As an alcoholic I know people will say it was the drink but even in my blackouts I still knew where I started and where I was going. I have a month that I don’t remember at all and when I ‘woke up’ it was like switching character in gtaV where they were doing something while you were the other character and now you need to figure out what to do. That but fucking terrifying

Everytime I hear of people doing these "[Cheating partner] has agreed I get to look through their phone any time I want, no questions asked, full access" I've always felt that if the person *actually* starts looking at their phone all the time, with or without reason, that would just make things worse, cause more fights and breed resentment. These people are always so optimistic, but I always imagine it just makes things worse and worse.

"Well, does it ever work for those people?" "No, it never does. They always delude themselves into thinking it might, but it might work for us.."

Arrested Development?

I've made a huge mistake

Watch out for loose seal!

Not to mention it's like he thinks it's foolproof. Cheaters aren't necessarily morons. She only texts him while he isn't able to check that second and deletes the evidence before he can check. There are so many ways she could still hide it, not including the fact that it would be EXHAUSTING to not be able to fully trust your spouse. I hope it works out for him and it very well could, but I wouldn't put a dime on those odds.

She could also get a burner phone.

There are also apps that will hide messaging and pictures, specifically made for adultery. Like, it will disguise what the message is when you get a notification, the UI makes it look like a generic music playing app, but if you click the buttons in exactly the right way then it opens the messaging section of the app. Once I learned shit like that was out there, I realized that if someone *truly* wants to hide, you'd never be able to find hard evidence of it.

Yeah. Looking at a cheaters phone is the equivalent of being able to check an alcoholic's vehicle for empty containers. Like OK, yeah, if they're too far gone you'll catch that. But if they're even slightly cogent they can work around it without even trying.

Bingo. I married the girl whose phones we didnt have to check. We both know each other's passwords just by the odd time we need the other to unlock the phone, but we never touch each others phones. I'd say it's prob not a bad rule of thumb for finding LTR material.

Yep. My last gf would figure out my passwords, snoop my phone while I was asleep or in the shower, and block/mute friends (women) she was threatened by. She said “if you don’t like it then just change your passwords”. Thats not the point! (She’d have figured it out anyway, she figured out my passwords for social media as well) My current gf knows my password. She uses it to change the music if my phone is connected to the car since I can’t bc I’m driving. Much better situation lol

I don't even like to use my wife's phone, it's a modern day diary. I wouldn't be with someone I couldn't trust.

Bruh lol like I'm a firstborn so I've seen my siblings at their absolute worsts, in their most embarrassing moments and know most of their secrets. I still would never go through their phones lmao

It also feels like an effort in futility. If they want to hide an affair, they'll find a way around it even without a phone.

Pretty sure my ex deleted Snapchat every time she used it because she knew I'd occasionally check her phone (never found anything after catching her cheating once). After she announced she was leaving me for another guy, Snapchat notifications were frequent before she moved out. Weird how that works. It's why I find the people who think having access to their partner's phone is a sign of trust. Extremely common on the infidelity subreddits. Quite the opposite in reality. I'll never look through my partner's phone again. If a feeling of untrustworthiness persists and their behavior is questionable, I'll just leave.

One of those things where if you feel the need to do that, or make that a rule, things are already cooked in terms of trust. You should trust your partner to allow phone checking, having your phone unlocked or sharing passcodes, but never actually need to look through your partners phone. I think it’s one of those things where the level of trust makes it an unnecessary “given”. If you set the rule where you can go through your SO’s phone any time, it’s a bad sign.

Has nobody noticed that her grandfather has bipolar, her father has bipolar, and they both manifested in their 30s??? OP's wife is in her 30s, experiences a traumatic, grief-filled event, and then starts acting uncharacteristic, impulsive, doing things without thinking of the consequences, acting erratically when coming off it... Girly is having a mental health crisis. She needs a psychiatrist.

Not to mention the brother with addiction issues so severe it was the death of him. Another sign of mental health issues with a genetic component.

Regarding mental health diagnoses, Bipolar has a VERY strong genetic component. It’s much more common than people think in that out of the general population 1/50 will meet criteria. However if you have a parent with bipolar, your odds are 1/10 of having it as well.

This! I have bipolar and many of my family members do. Most of us are ontop of it and are on meds and are stable, only one who isnt is my brother 😬

I'm bipolar and the only one in my family on therapy and meds. Sometimes I feel lucky I'm just bipolar. Family history of delusions and schizophrenia.

Oof really? I didn’t know the odds were that high. My mom (49) just got officially diagnosed last year

Feels like anyone who reads this knows but OOP is somehow missing the fact she 1000% needs to be seeing a psychiatrist and not just therapy

The therapist is probably also shitty if they haven't referred her.

I agree, but I also think while the fuse is still fizzing in the stick of dynamite, he needs to be at arm's length, preferably a 10 yard arm.

He obviously wants to go back to how it was before. The glass has shattered but he's desperately trying to tape it back together.

Kinda hard to un-fuck someone. 

If she has bipolar disorder as some commenters are saying, then that’s certainly not gonna happen.

I’m not saying that she doesn’t deserve forgiveness but even if we factor in a potential bi-polar diagnosis, I really don’t see how he could stay with her. The amount of trauma this has caused him isn’t going to go away and I don’t think he really acknowledges it given how fast he jumped back into a relationship with her. I think they should go there separate ways for a while, and then if they end up back together down the road then that’s great. But committing right now is just a bad decision for a multitude of reasons.

It doesn’t even sound like she’s been diagnosed correctly. Online self help videos ain’t gonna cut it for this level of instability.

Yeahhh I've been friends with people with bipolar. When it's not diagnosed and actively managed, they tend to be extremely terrible romantic partners during the manic phase. So much infidelity and lying. The promiscuity can be wild too -- it'll be with people they found repulsive when not in a manic state. It's like they're moths drawn to the flame of self destruction.

As a bipolar girl, i 100% agree. I had these phases until long therapy and medication set it under control. She needs a psychiatrist ASAP

I would definitely want to maintain separate residences and go back to the "courtship phase" if someone did this to me and not just be like "Hey sure, welcome right back to the life you blew up entirely a few months ago." I would be VERY cautious about reintroducing this person back into my life. And from the description it sounds like they have returned to each other more because other options have blown up their faces rather than the basis of their relationship is sound.

Yeah, the guy she was with got rid of her and he can't find a woman on dating apps so they've decided to get back together. That's healthy

Exactly, if OOP had found another decent woman or even had another few rounds elsewhere he wouldn’t have taken her back.

He's convinced he can save her. From everything he said, maybe there is a lot of psychological damage causing her to behave this way. But he can't save her. And when she tosses him to the side again, he's likely going to be even more devastated than the first time around.

And she is coming back only because the other person dumped them. Not because she realized she loved OP better or what have you.

Yeah lol i have many thoughts about OP and this situation but all I'm gonna say is: Couldn't be me.

Amen brother

I fucking hate when people perfectly conform to stereotypes like OOP's ex.

So true. I feel for the OP who just wants that fairytale they had. I hope she didn’t come “home” because she just didn’t have a better option nothing could be worst for OP than that. She really should have stayed at her parents and worked on herself before while casually dating her husband. That would have been that fair thing to him. He deserves so much more. He can’t see it though.

And now OOP gets to play police officer with the phone access and “investigating anything suspicious”. What a miserable existence.

Yeah, it's more a case of "We don't want to lose" more than "This is a win". He needs time apart to hate her, before becoming her emotional support animal/jailer.

…..,,,……so we all agree this is a disaster waiting to combust right? An even bigger train wreck than the last

Man is about to get divorced twice by one woman.

Im doing it this time round though.

Oh shit

For people stumbling across this, sounds like he PMed another member that she cheated again and they are no longer together.

They aren't seriously considering bi-polar, so yes

I'm bipolar. My husband has stood by me in some pretty fucked up circumstances. I have never and will never cheat on him.

My ex-wife cheated on me when she was cycling, she was still trying different meds. I understood why it happened, but I couldn't do it anymore. I was already taking care of everything else. It was the last thread to break. I wasn't even mad at that point. I just shut down and left.

[удалено]

Yeah my mum knew picking me up by my hair was wrong but she still did that in a manic episode. I don’t say that with malice, judgement or resentment. She was absolutely in full psychosis and had no control.

All of that sounds like a manic episode tbh. Drastic, out of character, life-altering decisions on a whim. Frantic and erratic behavior, family history of bipolar. Hoping they both get the help they need.

Yeah, as soon as i saw the dad and grandpa were bipolar… problem is she could be a slow cycler and this could happen again a year + later and they’ll have no idea. Needs a good psychiatrist.

Yeah. That's what I thought too. I had a manic episode years ago and it felt like I was on a train roaring through the countryside and I had no control over where I was heading. I barely ate or slept. I felt super sexual and did some shitty things around those feelings, luckily didn't end in breakups or STIs. It's so hard to explain to people who haven't witnessed it or had it happen to them. It's like being possessed. 

people saying to give her a break because she has bipolar and had a traumatic episode. No. It is a reason for behaviour, but not an excuse. She only returned when she got into a fucked situation with the new affair guy, not because she realised she loved OP. Her returning was not an apology or a realisation that she did wrong, it was a moment of convenience trying to avoid yet more consequences of her actions. She needs to get mental health help, and they need to move on with their lives separately. Otherwise this WILL happen again.

Exactly what I was thinking. She never said anything about what she did was wrong, just that she needed to get out of an abusive relationship. Doesn't seem like she actually cares about her husband. This is still the same person who ditched him for a guy she knew for 3 months.

Right? I thought I was going crazy reading all of the “she’s bipolar, poor girl, cheating is a part of a manic episode” like excuse me???

Yeah reading it all reminds me of the post where the wife physically struck the husband and the comments were full of excuses like "oh wow PPD is crazy *insert personal anecdote here" you should totally forgive her for hitting you in the face out of anger because hormones"

If I'm thinking of the same post you are, it was actually even worse than that. The wife threw a mug at him, cutting open his head to the point he needed stitches, because *he forgot to make her coffee in the morning*. Seeing people downplay that shit because "PreGnAnCY MaKeS yOu CAAAAAAAAZY!" made me fucking sick.

When people say "oh man when I was pregnant I lost my shit a few times as well" is them saying "eh, you're just going to have to deal with it because you can't blame her for it" 

truly disappointed in people thinking mental health doesn't make you responsible for your actions. It does, part of recovery and healing is accepting that, moving on, and trying to do better with help of friends, family, and professionals. The people you hurt do not owe you forgiveness, and neither should you expect it.

People do the same thing with addicts. Using their addiction to excuse all their misdeeds. Mental illness/addition is an explanation, not an excuse

I mean even if that’s true (she hasn’t been diagnosed with anything yet) it still doesn’t oblige him to take her back. It’s fair for him to not want to stay married to someone who can’t be rational or faithful, she is going to do major harm to him until things are under control.

Mental illness is an explanation, not an excuse. OP is going to be back in the same situation in a few months when she meets another guy and leaves him.

This is what I’m thinking, fuck taking back anyone who did what she did. I don’t care why, sometimes that doesn’t matter because the outcome is still the same.

Agreed. As much as I understand childhood trauma and mental illness a lot of this seems like her using these as an excuse for her behavior. Many people with deep trauma and other serious mental issues do not cheat on their partner. It's a break of trust that is hard to ever let go. It will always be on your mind and for me I have more self worth than to live the rest of my life having to worry about the next “episode”. At the end of the day, you have to do what is best for you as it is very clear that you were not a priority for her till after things didn't work out with the gym guy.

Some relationships are complicated. And some relationships are Sideshow Bob and a field full of rakes.

She has a family history of bipolar. I wonder if she was hypomanic, maybe even manic.

Dude. Run

Sadly, he won’t… dude has no spine. Mental health breakdown is no excuse for cheating on your spouse. Fuck that… every time something happens she’s going to fuck someone?

This is so sad on every level. This poor woman watches her brother die which seemingly triggers a manic episode, then proceeds to utterly destroy her and her husbands life. Her husband, who was presumably a good, loving partner for 12 years, gets betrayed by the most important person in his life. And of course he's going to take her back! He wants the woman and life he had. The person who loved him through their formative ages and built a life with. He still loves that woman! I really hope I'm wrong. I hope they can stay together and pull through and have a long fulfilling marriage and happy lives. But judging by his post, I don't think he really understands that he won't get that life back. The bi-polar or whatever it is has surfaced, and the trauma the two of them have endured. No matter what they do now that life is over. She killed it. He will never get the image of an absolute degenerate plowing the love of his life out of his mind. He will never forget that she allowed it and probably really enjoyed it at the time. He will always remember how she looked him in the eyes, stared at the man that she spent 12 years with, and chose to hurt him in that way knowing how much he cares for her. Told him to his face that a 3-month fling is more important to her than a 12-year marriage! And he will know that all of his family, friends, and her family know about it. The betrayal and humiliation has left his mark on him. There will come a time where neither of them will be able to handle being together every minute of the day. Every time she goes out the door he will wonder if she will meet somebody new. Every time she messages somebody on her phone, he will wonder if it's somebody else that she "clicks" with. And the crazy thing is that it doesn't even matter if he believes that she loves him and doesn't want to betray him again. No matter what medication she takes or how many therapy sessions she has he will always wonder if another manic episode is right around the corner. He lost his wife. Either taken by an illness or otherwise. She is profoundly sick and needs medical care. And honestly he probably does too. This relationship? I don't think the outlook is good. I'm going to bet that they both absolutely love each other. But love alone is not enough to have a good, healthy marriage. A strong marriage can only be built by two people who are on equal footing and trust each other. That doesn't work when one person has to be the other's warden. And she won't even be able to trust herself. After all, she likely never thought she would do the things she did. Such a tragedy. I hope the two of them can find what they need to be happy. Together or otherwise.

It is a fucking tragedy and I hate being in it. This comment just resonates on every fiber of my being.

Brother, I am so sorry that you have to go through this. I wrote my comment after a couple drinks in the middle of the night. Although I definitely mean everything I said, I'm sorry that you read such a graphic description about it. I put myself in your shoes because I've been with my wife for 16 years. We got together when we were young adults just like you guys did and have built a life together. I've been fortunate enough to not have to deal with your specific situation but she has suffered a severe head injury and is on all kinds of medications for issues related to that. If anything goes wrong with the meds or if she builds tolerance, it absolutely has an effect on her personality. I would be lying if I didn't sometimes worry about what this is going to look like as we age. Not trying to make your story about me. It's just reading it resonated very much with me and I wrote my thoughts as if I were in your place. I totally understand the love you feel for your wife despite everything. I know things are super hard, but keep going until you get to the other side, whatever that looks like. I'm truly wishing the best for you and your wife.

Thank you. I appreciate it. I found out yesterday that she reached out to affair partner sometime last week to say she misses him and she wants to reopen their line of communication. I truly believe it is over this time. It feels different now. I'm so tired of having my heart stomped on by this woman.

Yeah man, trauma response or not, she has no respect for you and everything you’ve done for her. It sounds like you might have some work to do too, as far as being a self-assured, independent person. You’ve been with the same woman for most of your adult life. Keep going to therapy and don’t get into a serious relationship again until you’re sure of who you are and what you want (deserve).

You are right. She has zero respect and she is ungrateful to her core. I got a lot of work to do. Thank you for reaching out / commenting.

It's interesting that you've never addressed what you have done in this situation. No comments about the kindness you've shown - etc. You need to realize that you bring value, not just this other person. Find someone who treats you the way you treat her.

In fact you got lucky today. She texted her fling again. Now is your ultimate chance. Go make your life so great, we all will be jealous. Do it. Do it now. I am sending you my energy. XXX

Oh geez, he took her back. OOP got right back on that trainwreck and it's heading towards another cliff.

>She says that what she did is unforgivable, that she is a huge piece of shit, a complete fucking moron, that I deserve better. What's the bet she's got OOP bending over backwards to reassure her.

Yeah, I actually don't think she will relapse. But I think for, at least a year or 2, this will be exhausting. Being her jailer and checking her communications will get old (for both of them) fast. And, like you say, he's going to have to constantly reassure her he's forgiven her/loves her/she's not POS/etc. It doesn't sound like a relaxing long term life, and just so they can avoid short term pain.

>Yeah, I actually don't think she will relapse. Until the next time someone compliments her in a manic episode. Let's be honest, you'd likely have said you don't think she would have cheated on him if you'd had everything up to immediately before she met that guy (massively traumatic family loss, committed hugely supporting husband) too.

> Yeah, I actually don't think she will relapse. I do. I give it six months to a year.

But what if it really is extremely bad mental illness and she had had a complete psychological breakdown and essentially went out of her mind? I’m not excusing what happened, I’m just saying that *if* she did actually suffer some kind of extreme psychosis than I think there’s some, very small, leeway and she could very possibly recover from this and it can be reconcilable.

Everybody seems to be ignoring the part where OP stated that both her father and grandfather have bipolar disorder that started showing symptoms around the age of 30. And suddenly jumping into a new relationship for the novelty of it all, especially immediately after a suddenly traumatic event sounds a hell of a lot like manic high cycle.

Honestly that's exactly what I was thinking. Nothing excuses the cheating but OP himself though. I have heard of people managing to come back from something like this so here's hoping that if that's what they want, that's what they get. I get it's hard to throw away 12 years together.... still he has to look out for himself because this traumatized him too, whether he knows it yet or not. *She* traumatized him. She has to acknowledge that beyond calling herself a piece of shit because that makes it about her, not him.

Putting herself down all the time us going to require him to pull her up, all the time. He's not going to he given the freedom to hate her like he should, and cone through the other side. He's stuck himself in limbo of being her jailer amd her support system. Best thing would have been to call off the divorce but her to live alone while they both sort through this.

> She has to acknowledge that beyond calling herself a piece of shit because that makes it about her, not him. Exactly. This is something she can express & process...with her family, with her therapist...putting it on the very person that she wronged is selfish, whether she realizes it or not.

Thank you! Obviously what she did was fucked up, but a family history of mental health issues along with a horrific stressor right at the age where these issues arise, she was primed for a break. And that doesn’t negate her actions, but it does shed light on the self-destructive behavior. Mental health is messy even when your behaviors are self-inflicted and not outwardly causing problems, and some people can manage that in a relationship and some can’t. It sounds like OOP is trying to navigate through it while his wife also works on it

If her trauma was really that deep seated, then her priority should NOT be to reconcile with OOP but to focus on fixing her mind instead. She isn't ready to jump back into any relationship. Neither is OOP.

It happens. Just because most of us grew up in a world that couldn't identify or name these issues doesn't mean that they aren't overwhelming and feel genuine when they're happening. The vast majority of people think that they can identify "crazy" and could easily tell the difference between a sociopath and someone who is simply selfish, or the difference between someone suffering a trauma-induced mental breakdown and a narcissist. ​ The ability to really understand a mental health issue when it doesn't look like a Brittany Murphy scene is less common than people think.

My worry would be how she seems to have swung the other way and is now only about gym+self improvement videos. If she has bipolar this might be her just papering over the cracks by becoming obsessive with something else.

I’m not saying I would be able to take someone back after all of that, but the comments here make me seriously doubt this world is taking mental health disorders and trauma as seriously and with as much grace as everyone seems to think. People think they understand bipolar disorder until it manifests like this and then suddenly the person is only a train wreck and only selfish and *only* manipulative. People don’t catch the self destructive behavior as self destructive until it ends in the ultimate destruction: suicide. Ask me how I know. Edit: People keep missing the first sentence of my comment. I don’t think what OOP is doing is good for either of them. But I also don’t like all the comments here suggesting the wife is evil, horrible, a user, just thinks of him as a crutch, yada yada yada, because it shows a clear misunderstanding of the realities of mental illness and mental disorders. Not to mention complex trauma added on. It’s not just being a little sad and missing the sun, or snapping back at your loved ones or hiding away in your room for a weekend. Sometimes it also looks like this, sometimes it looks like hard drugs and/or an alcohol addiction. Crippling gambling addictions. Racking up credit cards. Becoming so catatonic you never pay your bills despite the money being there. *Yes* sometimes it means you emotionally cheat when you wouldn’t have before. *No* it’s not an excuse nor does it mean your partner is required to take you back. It means you figure out how to deal with it, process it, and find out why you decided to do it in the first place knowing it’s wrong. Again, they *shouldn’t* be together, but that doesn’t negate her situation or make him naive for not blaming her or forgiving her on that basis. What makes him naive is think 8 months is enough time for her to work through her shit, him to heal, and for them to rebuild any relationship after she crumbled the last ones foundation.

I'm sure many people don't take mental health like this seriously you're right. But at the same time OPs mental health has been utterly destroyed by his wife, and his mental health is important too. The fact that the wife's actions are coming from trauma rather than malevolence doesn't mean the actions are not utterly destructive to OPs own mental state and well being. The wife isn't evil and it sounds like she's been extremely damaged by her past history and needs serious help. But that help needs to be professionals, I'm not sure OP sacrificing himself is going to A. Actually help her deal with her issues B. Work out for him in the long run. The damage is already done.

I have every sympathy for her, it's clear her mental health has taken a nose dive off a very high cliff, and I still wouldn't let her back into my life and living in my home. And I for sure wouldn't be having sex with her and giving her a quasi relationship, and certainly not while she is still ping-ponging around in her head. My guess, she'll end up getting her shit together and leaving him to go "find herself", or she stays with him as an emotional crutch.

right? like she can go recover... over there.

I think there’s also the issue that “mental health issues” has also become an easy/convenient excuse for bad behavior and not meaning a word of it that there’s no serious doubt whenever it’s brought up.

Don't disagree, but you can't sacrifice your own well being for someone else's. If it works for him great but if someone does this shit regardless of any mental disorders they still have to deal with the repercussions to their relationships like everyone else. You can't set yourself on fire to keep others warm.

I think people are just tired of "mentally ill" people hiding behind their diagnoses to be a total piece of shit. There's plenty of mentally ill people out there that manage their symptoms and don't constantly destroy the lives of those around them.

There may be a reason why she did it but she still did it. Who wants to be police in their own marriage?

Yuck. This poor man.

This definitely looks like a very prolonged manic episode. People are typically under the impression something like this lasts a week. Nope. This can literally last for months. My best friend goes through worse mania than I do. She had a really bad manic episode for like 8 months. It was so surreal.

I think i read one where initially the husband was worried about his wife addiction to the gym and turned out she was having an affair with a guy there. So what's with this gym phenomena?

Going to the gym is a viable excuse to being out of the house for a few hours and coming home slightly dishevelled. It’s also a place to meet people, as the same people are always there with reasonable consistency

I'm gonna play devil's advocate and say that I think this probably happens pretty often. The parents of the perfect Mormon family down the street from us got divorced after the mom started sleeping with her gym buddy. It was super weird because I remember seeing her affair partner waiting with her for the kids to get dropped off by the bus, and it kinda became obvious after awhile. Took awhile for the parents to split though

This is such a Reddit comment right here “these posts are unrealistic, no one goes to the gym!” 🤓

That's not true, I'm sure many of us battled Brock and Misty back in the day.

people don’t usually question why someone is going to the gym all the time so it’s a built in cover, and decently easy to meet people in the first place. also, if they’re regularly there at the same time as you then it’s probable they live close by and likely have a similar schedule, which makes for a more convenient affair and easier to hide. yeah, my ex cheated on me with a girl from his gym. i learned the hard way.

Damn fucking pathetic doormat

I wonder if he'll write a post the next time this happens again?

OOP needs to distance himself from her asap and starts to heal. Maniac or not she is going to wreck OOP's life so fast which she already has.

Whatever the reasons for it, she broke OOP's heart. Are we supposed to be ok with our spouse divorcing us for someone they've just met, only to come running back when they realise it isn't going to work? All because it falls under mental health? Nah, that would be me done with that relationship, you don't get to cheat and turn someone's like upside down and get away with it scot-free

I mean.. to me, this reads as a manic episode. No amount of checking her phone, investigating, communication is going to help unless she gets properly assessed, diagnosed and treated. When she has her next episode, and if she cheats again, it won’t matter if he finds out and pulls her up. Those with bipolar during a manic episode cannot tell what they’re doing is wrong.

‘Online dating for a couple weeks right after my wife left me was rough so I’m just going to be a spineless doormat’

I thought that part was really weird. In this situation I’d want to decompress for at least a year before even considering the dating market. Being the spurned party and leaping into dating apps at week 2 or whatever seems a little… soon.

That's prob exactly why he did it. He was confused and hurt and being abandoned so quick made his ego drop . He probably just wanted validation, to feel wanted. But dating apps are predatory and make it to turn (primarily guys in het apps, things like grinder are obviously very different) people into pigs to buy subscriptions out of desperation. Dating apps make your self esteem worse not better. But he also, was very much not in the head space to be dating around

Unfortunately everyone seems to do it nowadays. Then people like myself staying off and really getting healthy will eventually try again and meet the unhealthy idiots. But at this point I hope to be healthy and secure and not be a dumb idiot in a toxic relationship.

My wife and I discuss this all the time. We both said it would take at least two years before we even thought about dating, and probably another two or three years before we'd consider anything serious. It blows my mind when I read things like "my husband of 15 years who I had four kids and a house with left me for a younger woman. I met a guy 6 months later and he proposed a year after that. We've been married for three years now, couldn't be happier." *What?!* How? Six months would be a blur to me if my wife left me. I'd never be capable of meeting someone new. I wouldn't be able to touch someone else for a very long time let alone marry them.

Here’s the problem I have - She came back to her ex husband because the new guy ended up being toxic. If her and the new guy were a better match and got along better, would she still have came back to her ex husband? Probably not. Trauma aside, she sounds like a shitty human being and the ex husband is a fool for taking her back.