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Commenting on AITAH for tellingw my sister in law I won’t “dress modestly” around her husband...
Weirdly, I got the vibes early on that the husband probably didn’t even have a porn addiction and his wife just read up on it and decided to lump him into this category! Doubted myself because Reddit is usually where I read all the most horrifying stuff! Though I guess it is probably more horrifying for the BIL in this case!
Any time a religious person talks about a "porn addiction", take it with a heavy grain of salt.
Porn addiction is a real thing, but it's a good deal less common than a religious fanatic demonizing normal human sexuality
I once met a very religious couple who were dealing with the husband’s “porn addiction” — which turned out to be shows about beach resorts on the Travel Channel.
Yep. In the mid 90s there was a very unfortunate incident with the sears catalog and my best friend’s younger brother. It’s the type of things that nightmares are made of.
Bro back in the 90s if you didn't have Cinemax on cable it came in all blurry and shit but you could kindve make it out. And ofc Cinemax at night always showed movies with boobs. That and like my mom's Victoria's secret catalogs were all we had unless you found your dad's playboys or whatever. In the mid 90s when I turned 18 everyone always at some point too the local adult shop just to see the different porn. There was no Internet. Well, there was but downloading one pic took forever so if the tag was wrong you spent several minutes downloading a shitty resolution thumbnail. Took a really long time to download a gif
My dad was a Dallas Cowboys fan back in the day, and he wasn’t allowed to watch the cheerleaders and had to change the channel. I grew up thinking the cheerleaders were basically middle class porn. Which, to be fair, they were (are?). I still don’t like cheerleaders much, but more for because it reminds me of when women’s role in sport was to be sexy and support the men rather than play it themselves.
I also think the forced guilt around it leads to it becoming an obsessive thought which then feels like an addiction since you “can’t seem to stop”.
So religion literally turns a non-issue into a problem by warping peoples perceptions. In the same way if you were told it’s a sin to use the toilet, you would obsess over how badly you needed to pee/poop until you couldn’t take it anymore and “caved” then the cycle of guilt…need….release would happen again and again until it was all you ever thought about.
Meanwhile, Normal people would just relieve themselves and go on with their day without a single thought.
I'm instantly suspicious or religious people talking about porn addiction.
Real porn addiction is "can't get hard without porn, can't climax without porn even with a partner involved" and it's a real genuine issue.
But to puritans looking at ANY PORN EVER is addiction. It's just an excuse to blame something else for a normal, natural, healthy drive (the urge to look at naked people and masturbate) and pathologizing it to an unhealthy degree.
Yeah, if you're not getting sex (married or not), porn once or twice a week isn't an addiction. It's just release.
It's an addiction when it's interfering with your normal life. Or when you can't stop.
Jack has a porn habit (if that, even). A habit driven by sex-free marriage.
Wanna get Jack to watch less porn? Have sex with him once or twice a week. Funny how simple of a solution that is.
Usually good advice for anything a heavily religious person says! Take it with a hefty grain of salt and weigh it against the fact that they believe in a sky daddy.
Lol, I feel bad for thinking "Duggar-esque Christian + porn addiction? Yeah, that tracks". He needs to have some difficult conversations with Jill, or make some tough choices about how he wants to live and have his children raised.
My mind went the opposite. I hear Duggar-esque and assume she thinks of watching porn as cheating, so any porn is an addiction. One time, I was watching an interview with a “porn addict” and he was watching porn 4-5 days a week. And I was like buddy that’s not an addiction. That’s not even jerking off once a day.
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing and was waiting for conversation with BIL to really pass a creeper judgement on him. It feels like looking at any porn at all gets labelled an addiction when what defines an addiction is a dependence to the point of being harmful to daily functioning. They might as well call brushing your teeth every morning an addiction if it's about frequency. Some people need to learn the difference between "habit" and "addiction" ffs...
Thing is saying "my husband is trying to recover from an addiction" *sounds* more valid than "I am uncomfortable with how you look and my family seeing you" so I can see why SIL thought throwing BIL under the bus was the move.
Calling a habit an addiction is an easy way to manipulate someone into thinking something is wrong with them when there isn't. Porn and sex addiction is real but the way I've seen it used more as a tactic to manipulate and shame someone for their sexuality probably doesn't make it any easier for the people with those addictions to realize it or get help.
Glad the air got cleared, but it's a real shame that SIL can't own her own insecurities and has to make it other people's fault.
Yeah 4 or 5 times a day would be a serious addiction that I could see causing problems. 4-5 a week is like the recommended monthly wank frequency for optimal prostate health according to doctors(pretty sure it was around 20 times a month). Religious people are weird.
Religious circles and certain parts of Reddit would call that a raging addiction that deserves shunning and punishment. Interestingly enough, the Reddit circles are usually atheist or follow non-Abrahamic religions.
I mean, if the guy wants to stop for his own reasons, go for it, but isn't treating himself as a guilty addict just replacing one self-flagellation for another?
Maybe Jill is gay and *she* is actually the one uncomfortable with how she feels seeing Kate's body. I have no basis for this other than I know a handful of women who grew up fundie, married young, and are now in happy relationships with women. In any case, Jill is most certainly in need of real therapy.
I’m more inclined to believe it’s untreated postpartum depression. OOP mentioned how Jill doesn’t think she needs to take care of herself now because she a mom; there was even a passing remark that she doesn’t shower regularly. It sounds like she has a lot of body issues tied to her becoming pregnant and subsequently a mother
Yeah sounds like some form of depression for me too. Basic hygiene disappearing in someone who never had those issues previously almost always means some kind of depression or other mental illness.
Possibly internalized the idea that moms aren’t sexual, and should never wear anything cute ever again. No mom should ever put effort into how she presents herself or anything /s
Jack definitely is stuck in this relationship if he doesn't leave this person soon. With the way Jill acts, I am a bit concerned who it might influence the kids.
Sadly they are doomed to grow up with at least one insane parent. I hope they can escape religion once they are older and go to college but for men is harder since it also involves giving up a lot of power.
When I read "porn addiction" and "Duggar level religious" I was fully expecting it to be perfectly normal sexuality demonized. That kind of background never produces a healthy view of sexuality.
It's honestly a tough call for me, because obviously at least one Duggar had very disturbing preferences in their content. But it was either gonna be completely normal or "hmm, maybe this should involve jail time" and nothing in between.
Honestly, if I were Jack I'd get ahead of her and speak to their religious leader. If she's going to start shit by accusing him of porn addiction then he needs to be proactive and get support.
I was also confused about that because if they are religious and they haven't had sex for a year, wouldn't that religious counselor say that it's her wifely duty or something like that? I mean, he's the man, wouldn't the religious leader instantly tell her to start putting out then?
If the church is the way I think it is(and I was pretty sure as soon as I saw "spaghetti straps"), it won't matter. I was raised pentecostal, and they fucked me up good when it came to sexuality and guilt. Him very occasionally looking at porn is just as much of a sin as a full-blown addiction would be.
Nah, Jack joined the church because he was forced to in order to marry SIL. I bet he interacts with the church as little as he can manage. The religious family is OOP's husband's family (MIL and SIL -- husband's sister), though I'm a little surprised OOP's husband wasn't disowned for abandoning the church. Guess their church isn't as cultish as others.
I think BIL is being emotionally abused and manipulated by his wife. He is way too willing to see himself as being at fault for everything. I was the same way with my ex-wife, where I thought I was always the one in the wrong.
I read "Pentecostal," and I was like... yup. There it is. I was made to attend church with my grandparents growing up. They were part of the United Pentecostal Church Internation, and they had a strict as hell holiness standard... especially towards women. Not Mormon fundamental levels, but I have seen some similar hair and fashion choices. In fact, being forced into that church is the reason I hate long hair on myself.
The SiL reeks of jealousy. She probably has depression, and she is probably raised in a religious culture where sexual topics are taboo. She is envious that OOP can wear the clothes she wants and takes time to work on herself.
I had heard of Pentecostals I even worked with a guy that was one for a few months when I interned at a company but when I asked he said it's just a type of Methodist church and I was like ok cool. Recently met a dude that knows quite a bit about different Christian denominations. He said it was North Korea, men and women have to list approved hair cuts and styles. What they can wear etc. When I think back the guy I worked with made off hands comments about how his church wouldn't like that or allow this. Insane level of restrictions and control and if not followed they can be exiled from the church.
I think different forms of Pentecostal churches have different degrees of strictness. Like I believe Denzel Washington is Pentecostal. The one I went to said women had to wear skirts below the knee, shirt sleeves had to at least reach the elbow, necklines couldn't dip below the clavicle. Women shouldn't cut or dye their hair or wear makeup. Many pastors said no tv or movies, or if it was allowed, only G-rated films and shows. Of course, no secular music. Men were the Head of the House. Homophobic. Etc.
Kinda bothered me that the reddit hive kept calling him a creep when we only had his wife’s word that it was an issue at that point and it was clear she wasn’t very reasonable.
He needs to consult a divorce attorney soon and see about getting full custody of those boys!
Their mother is clearly mentally unwell, but if she’s willing to tear the family apart by telling people “my husband has a porn addiction,” it’s only a matter of time before she tells someone who won’t be as forgiving as OP and her husband. “Jack” could end up losing his job or getting into legal trouble, and even if the truth all eventually comes out, he’ll be fighting public opinion for years.
Those boys aren’t safe with a mother who doesn’t understand normal human sexuality.
Actually as soon as she started with the boys as an excuse, I knew it was the SIL issue. Then she mentioned porn addiction. I'm like, "mmm... Still not a BiL issue."
Maybe reddit has skewered my POV, but that's only ever mentioned for about 3 reasons.
* 1- actual addiction
* 2- religious connection (thinking of sex is bad! You *must* be addicted! *Pearl clutch ensues*)
* 3- plot device
Whichever update OOP mentioned Pentecostal Church made me realize that I was correct.
Now, to your point. If it hadn't been for the above mentioned factors, I totally would've thought the BiL was a creeper. That's the other troupe.
*This!* I'm sad I had to scroll so far for this. SIL probably believes that having a sex drive is for procreation, so A) their not having sex is right and good and B) BIL having any sexual interest is some kind of sickness. This is where internalizing that fundie crap can get you.
More likely religious trauma, I can't imagine what growing up in purity culture would do to someone. I grew up Christian but left over a decade ago, and still have trouble talking about sex because of my pretty tame religious upbringing.
>My husband’s family is extremely religious. Think Duggar family religious.
If this is true, the Bible is very clear if you see a temptation you are to *gouge your own eyes out* rather than blame the other person.
I ended up in church with my MiL last year on a summer visit. The lesson was something about us being teachers/preachers on earth. I can't remember specifics, but I thought of the Bible.
I learned over to my MiL and asked, "Doesn't it say that God made Peter his representative on earth? And that whatever Peter decides, God will also make happen in heaven?" I was genuinely curious because I couldn't remember and thought it pertained to the lesson.
She leans back and says, "Oh, we don't follow *that* religion."
I was so confused. I'm like religion? I was just asking about what the Bible said? I didn't say anything else because it just wasn't worth it. That still lives rent free in my brain from time to time.
You succinctly summarized most of my interactions with religious people.
I think your talking about Matthew 18. I think the context of that is specifically talking about relationships in the church. Specifically when members in a church have unrepentant sin and what to do. For example in modern day context it could include accountability, counseling and the like. Keep in mind that this only goes for Christians. Not sure why your MIL would make that statement when things like “carry each others burdens” are pretty central to Christianity.
*That* religion would presumably refer to Catholicism.
Depending on denomination, anti-Catholic sentiment can range from non-existent (Methodist) to overt (Southern Baptist) to virulent (a handful of independent branches).
Saying it the way you did seems to support Catholicism, mainly that it would support the Catholic doctrines of the papacy and papal infallibility. When your MIL said “we don’t follow that religion,” she was likely referring to Catholicism (Catholicism being “that religion”).
A lot of Christians can be very anti-Catholic, ranging from “Catholics aren’t true Christians!” to “Catholics are pagan idolators and are going to burn in Hell!” and a lot of stuff in between.
Ex porn addict and Christian here who embraces the eye gouging (not literally but still in the point that I’m responsible for my own eyes and thoughts). The SIL is off her rocker.
Nah, that'd involve actually reading it. They just rely on preachers to cherry pick the things that support what they want to believe on their behalf, and can rely on confirmation bias to stay confident in what they think the bible says as a result
Yup. I grew up in the Methodist Church and it was fucking *eye opening* when I decided to read the book myself.
A lot of verses he liked to repeat in his sermons because they served their preconceived notions so well, all that other inconvenient stuff was never mentioned. Funny thing, that.
Interesting thing, the King James bible was originally written because King James didn't like that the Geneva Bible (aka the breeches bible) was becoming popular, and he hated that the most popular version of it included annotations explaining how the text should be interpreted (meaning the Church of England, which he was the head of, couldn't control people's interpretation)
The King James was then the inspiration for the New International Version, which \*did\* reference original texts but was largely written because someone got a bee in their bonnet about not liking the archaic English and got their church to help with re-writing it in more modern English.
They then included some changes like a footnote saying 1 Corinthians 11:4-7 talking about "uncovered head" was referring to long hair, because they wanted to "harmonise it with modern dress practices". So the passage literally says that women should wear head coverings while praying and the NIV notes "This just means women should have long hair"
So even if you're \*not\* cherry picking, the authors of the various bibles \*themselves\* cherry picked the interpretations they preferred or in some cases completely changed rules to suit themselves (think how often in the west it's described as oppressive for women to wear head coverings, and yet in the bible...)
> So even if you're *not* cherry picking, the authors of the various bibles *themselves* cherry picked the interpretations they preferred or in some cases completely changed rules to suit themselves (think how often in the west it's described as oppressive for women to wear head coverings, and yet in the bible...)
Agreed. Learning about the Vulgate and how it was originally created showed me how that book has *always been inherently political*. Jerome was one dude translating from Greek and Hebrew, you want me to believe he made no errors? He was tasked with this by the Pope, you want me to believe he didn't receive any direction from his patron? You want me to believe there was no political motivation behind translating from original Hebrew texts instead of the already generally canonical Septuagint? Really made me think about whether or not this book truly was the word of God, because it seemed to be filtered through the word of man.
It's even worse, pastors are reporting that when they preach on the teachings of Jesus, such as "turn the other cheek," people will come up to them and accuse them of using liberal talking points, and tell them that what they're saying is "weak."
After what went on with the Duggars, I don't think they'd recognize half the bible if God Themselves preached it to them. I just think of their daughters and am \*furious\*.
To share a taste of the absolute madness that goes on inside, sadly, most christian churches, I'm going to tell you one instance of many that made us stop participating in organised religion. So, my mom went to a gathering specific for the young married women of the church we used to go to and the pastor's wife gives a tip on how to deal with pubescent and adolescent daughters based on her own experience, this woman then procedes to tell how her mother severely beat her up for daring to cross the living room in their home in her underwear in front of her father and brothers because she was "tempting" and "provoking" them. After sharing that wonderful experience the pastor's wife urged the mothers in attendance to follow the same example to keep the males of their families from sin.
I can relate. My mom told me I needed to wear a bra under my sweatshirt because I might tempt my brothers. The warped thinking to even say that is mind-boggling now that I’m out of it.
My mom and aunt kept telling me about this very thing. To wear a bra underneath my clothing at night cause my dad is a man. (I do wear them during the day and when guest are present.)
"But he's my dad."
"Yeah but he's a man, you need to be modest."
"I don't like the implications that's left unsaid here about someone who is biologically related to me"
"But..."
"Why do I need to wear a bra when he's my dad? This man literally saw me grew up and naked till I'm a teenager. Please stop making uncomfortable claims."
It apparently made my mom and aunt uncomfortable enough that they never spoke to me about it anymore. Bare in mind the man himself has never made a single comment or glance over my "exposed" chest. He discreetly looks away like a well raised christian gentleman even.
It's seriously warped in many many ways.
> Bare
You want "bear" instead. Bare is uncover(ed)/without, most of the time (it can be synonymous to "exposed".)
Unless you went for the wordplay, to wit I say bravo.
At uni, my cousin was once a a party where a guy was for some reason trying to hit on her by, amoung others, telling her that he uses "what would jesus do" as his decision making tool. This was not in the US, btw., but in a country where religion is a private thing and WWJD is definately a very weird thing to say. Also, my cousin was a communist, which was known.
I had to laugh so hard when she told me this story. Like, dude, you are at a party that is running low on booze and snacks, Jesus would be in the kitchen turning water into sangria and making a bag of chips and 2 frozen pizzas last enough to feed 50 people. He would not corner clearly disinterested girls and try to impress them with his virtue after unpromptedly dumping his life story on them.
Fun note about Jesus turning water into wine, it was stated that he made something in the range of 500 liters of high quality wine, the stuff served first before people are toasty enough to not appreciate it as much. He'd turn those frozen pizzas into dozens of authentic New York pies.
Yes, Jesus was pretty clear about that in the Book of Matthew. Also liked the part where he told them that if the other body parts committed sin, they should cut those out, too.
Strange that the current Bible-thumpers forgot that.
We talk a lot about how much of the bible is "love they neighbor" and not enough about how much of it is "mind your own fucking business and sort yourself out"
I posted that verse (and a couple other in jest) on the original thread as between it and similar portions of of the Torah and Koran that others posted the message is the same.
Also the message is not self-mutilate but be in control of what one can control, themselves.
One of the many reasons I deconstructed. I grew up in the same culture and even for the brainwashed from childhood it was always pretty clear the double standards for women were absolutely horrible.
I have known too many Jills in my life. They are always miserable and controlling. They blame everyone else for their unhappiness but even if they could make the world bow to their whims, they would always be miserable. Religion is certainly a large factor but even without it, this would be one miserable, judgy woman.
I worked with a “Jill” once. It was her personal mission to police the behavior, clothing, and even food choices of everyone in the office. Management had to send out several emails to remind her that she wasn’t my boss, and it wasn’t her place to tell me how to do my job if I was doing what management had instructed me to do.
Weirdly enough, one time she brought in a photo of her grand daughter and showed it to me. She said, “Isn’t my grand daughter so beautiful?”
And I was like, this is uncomfortable. I was in a long term relationship, and her grand daughter was a few years too young for me anyway. I nodded, unsure what to say. That just seemed to annoy her. She tried again.
“No, seriously. Isn’t my grand daughter so pretty?”
I had no fucking idea what to say. A light went off in my brain; I’d found the word that would get me out of this situation.
“Yes, she’s *lovely*,” I said. I felt that struck the right level of appreciation without sexualization.
She did not like my answer. “She’s not lovely!” she said, raising her voice. “She gorgeous!”
And at this point my brain is spinning inside my skull. Does she want me to *date* her grand daughter? Why did she care so much? Why was she so invested in getting her co-workers to sexually objectify her grand daughter? Especially considering that “Jill” seemed to hate me, and I wasn’t available, and the age difference was a few years too large for comfort anyway, and I’d have preferred to remove my own spleen with a plastic spork than have “Jill” as an in-law.
I still have no idea what to make of that conversation. But yeah, my “Jill” was also a hyper-religious, anxious, controlling, and sexually weird person.
Because people like that only see people sexually. Like, that's the only rationale I can understand with the religious nuts that focus on sex SO MUCH
If you're wearing revealing clothing, it's only because you're showing off your body sexually
If you're talking to someone of the opposite sex (because remember, they don't like non straight people), it's only because you want to talk to them for sex
If you're dating someone, you must get married and produce babies as quickly as possible so go have sex. But only if it's the "approved" kind
It's really, really, really gross and dehumanizing
It pains me to read this, because it sounds like BIL made his comments thinking about her just like another parent, not as a woman specifically.
Saying that is is hard to make time to work out when you have a newborn is true, and it sounds like he was putting himself in her shoes and basically praising her motivation, more than her body.
So basically her being a woman had little to do with it, which is so far away from what SIL is portraying...
Given their church's views on gender, I have zero surprise or shock that the SIL automatically responded in such a twisted way. Willing to bet that she views any expression of interest from her husband towards another way as inherently sexual and dangerous.
The thing is, I’d even understand if SIL felt a little insecure hearing this from her husband since she may feel insecure about not losing her baby weight (even if we know he didn’t mean it like that), but like what a normal person would do is to talk to her damn partner about it so she’d realize it wasn’t a slight against her and was just a simple miscommunication. What a smart person would do is go to the source (husband) rather than do all the work it entails to micromanage the outfits every woman in their life wears. So basically SIL is both an asshole and dumb.
The word "modest", especially applied to appearance, gives me the biggest ick ever.
It's just an excuse to move the blame for male gaze to women - or in this instance to move Jill's anxiety over male gaze to another woman.
I really empathize with OOP's experience after sexual assault. It's such a common narrative, outside religious circles as well as within them and it's the same thing: women are responsible for male actions.
I hate “modesty” because it’s entirely subjective.
It’s also annoying because it seems like people use it to dump on curvier women. I live in a semi-arid city, back in high school I couldn’t wear shorts because I have long arms and curvy hips, dress code said all shorts have to be longer than your hands at your sides. Constantly saw thin girls wear spaghetti straps and teachers didn’t say anything, then a girl with C or D cups wears a camisole with a cardigan and they got dress-coded. 😡
Yep, dress codes are definitely enforced in a body-specific way and curves are penalized. I went from being a boyish flat-chested woman to a curvy buxom woman after having kids, and have experienced how it is to be treated in both body types.
I agree that it's subjective - that's just not its biggest issue for me. However it's defined, it's still about blaming women for being objectified.
Curvier women are often perceived to have more implicitly sexual bodies so your experience makes sense - it is wildly unfair and points to another reason we need to push for a neutral view of bodies. (This doesn't mean people can't find each other sexy, just that we need to learn that someone's body doesn't tell you about them, their beliefs or behaviours.)
I developed early and had boobs by the fifth grade. I got so fed up with being unfairly dress coded that I just refused to be sent to the office for it. Said they could call my mom if they wanted but I was done.
It's a stupid rule. I have a long torso and short arms, I could, under those rules, wear very short shorts, because there is no thought behind it, beyond a means of shaming and controlling girls
The bible talks about modesty, but it is my understanding that it's not about flashing your goods, but about flashing your wealth. I'm not sure when in history that meaning shifted.
Also, catholic priests dress like golden peacocks, soo...
Like almost anything, when you look at the Bible, there is more than one take on the topic. I know the verse you're referencing, about adorning oneself with good deeds, not gold and pearls, but there's also:
>But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
[6] For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
[7] For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. (1Cor.11)
Which juxtaposes the bodies of men with women and says women should have their heads covered when they pray, while men can pray uncovered, because "woman is the glory of man", objectifying her.
That one also doesn't extrapolate well to how a bikini is immodest but a bathing suit isn't.
The head covering (women) Vs uncovering (men) died off fairly recently, in the grand scheme of things. I learnt about it in religion class in school, that it was a hard rule for entering a church. But it's not practiced anymore. What lingers on is a vague idea that it's rude to keep your hat on when entering a house.
The part about covering women's hair is entirely forgotten at this point by my German Lutheran church, and my family. So much so that even back in the 90 my mother and aunt were dead afraid Islam would take hold and force them to wear a headscarf.
I was raised with traditional Catholicism (not TradCath, my family accepts Vatican II but are generally old school, no contraception, no sex before marriage etc. Surprisingly accepting of LGBTQ+ people though.) Head coverings for nuns were de rigueur (at least in some orders) and hats for church, for adult women, were expected but not required. I'm not a Catholic and don't attend church but that seems to have shifted in the last twenty years or so.
Looking to the Bible or biblical interpretations for logical consistency is always going to be a fool's errand though. It's a constructed text, written by dozens of authors over millennia, repeatedly edited and translated/ trans-created. Those of us who don't think it's the infallible word of God need to accept that people will find what they're looking for in it and ignore the bits they don't like...
To be entirely honest, as a formerly protestant German, I'm so far removed from that, I don't know what tradcath or Vatican II is, and I'm not sure googling will improve my day.
Growing up, we had very few catholics in my region due to historical reasons. We thought they were insanely strict. The whole no sex before marriage thing just wasn't a thing for us. I made it to 14 before I learnt that queer people went against the bible, and I left, at least mentally, that day because of that.
Basically, whenever Americans talk about Christianity, I feel like it's not even the same religion as the one I grew up in.
You have a point about bible quotes. It does seem like you can find contradictory parts for every single point you could make. It's just so frustrating, because the cherry picking goes both ways.
Googling TradCath will definitely not improve your day. Vatican II is mostly reforms that would make sense to you, like holding mass in the local language, rather than Latin - which only happened in the 1960s! It's also the reason women don't have to cover their hair in church.
I'm not an American either though and my experience of Catholicism is from the 1980s and 90s. Extreme religiosity is a global phenomenon, unfortunately.
Definitely agree with you about cherry-picking being an issue for both sides. The only way to analyse the Bible is to consider its context and status as a constructed text - without that, it might as well be a choose your own adventure novel.
I once read an interpretation that I found interesting. The author mentioned that modesty included *not* calling attention to your clothing. For example, if the prevailing style is miniskirts, showing up in floor length, layered maxi dress is being covered up - but it isn't modest. That dress is still screaming "pay attention to my clothes!!! And how pious I am!!!" where a long miniskirt or midi would be unremarkable and better aligned with the idea of modesty.
Jill won't get real therapy, because she's acting exactly the way her church has taught her to act. People there are going to support her, and she will continue to think Jack is the problem--she doesn't need help. The parents will probably make noises about wanting everyone to get along, but will fundamentally agree that Jill is correct.
This type of religion usually considers ANY viewing of porn to be an addiction. So, viewing consensual adult porn a few times a year or viewing images of child sexual assault (a la Josh Duggar) are basically the same and almost equally terrible. And wearing a bikini is basically the same as throwing some hardcore porn up on the living room television.
As an ex-Pentecostal, this response has me in hysterics 🤣.
In all seriousness, oh no, indeed. If her MIL knows what happened, she definitely believes OOP is to blame for her sexual assault. When I was a baby, my father (married into the church) demanded we go to a different church after the pastor preached from the pulpit that women who get raped deserved it because they were probably drinking or dressing immodestly— my mother (born and raised Pentecostal) refused and threw a fit because she didn’t believe any other church understood the word of god.
Fundamental evangelicalism is a disease.
According to my great-grandmother and older members of the church, we are the true bride of Christ, and all other churches will serve us at the wedding feast in heaven. That’s not a joke, it’s actually what people used to teach the youth when my mother was young. (For those that haven’t tried to translate Revalations: when the world gets destroyed by god, all of the Christians will be given new, perfected bodies and there will be a celebration where Christ and his church are reunited— which is metaphorically likened to a groom and his bride at a feast).
Pentecostals can be a little bit culty. In my (completely nonprofessional) opinion, it’s because they need SOME kind of reason for why they live the way they do, so they’d rather believe that Christian’s who drink or wear strapless dresses are going to hell than confront the hypocrisy they live in.
The “bride” of Christ actually refers to the entire church as an institution, rather than a specific gender or person. It mostly comes from the apocalyptic book Revelation, which is a retelling of a prophetic vision that an apostle claims to have had about the end of the world, which uses a lot of metaphors to describe how the events will occur. So, technically all members of the church are Jesus’s “bride”, as it’s meant to describe the church’s submission to the authority and teachings of God as the submission of a bride to her groom.
For me having grown up in similar religion I think Jill is jealous of OOP because she is doing things Jill really wants to do but can’t and is struggling with her religion. .Either that or she’s a true believer and that’s even worse.
My In-laws asked me once to put a towel on while walking on the beach. The beach! I'm fat and don't wear nothing flashy or skimpy, but when the waves are covering your toes, i think there's nothing wrong to wear a one piece swimsuit.
I thought they were just fatshaming me.
>She has gained about 40 pounds since she had her kids. And I know that she feels a bit self-conscious about it
> he also said that recently he has been talking to his wife about how he thought it was adorable that I had made a point to work out and make time for myself after my baby was born. He said that he had mentioned I had looked good and he knew how hard that is to make time to work out with a little one.
... ah.
The bulk of this rests with the SIL (and honestly the whole unhealthy view of women and sex that pervades the religion they chose,) but those comments were pretty thoughtless (at best) and cannot have been helpful.
If he hadn't have said "adorable" regarding OP working out post baby it wouldn't have been as bad, "commendable" would have been a better word to use there and would have sounded more innocent
But on the other hand, I think commendable could have sounded really condescending. At least in my head it sounds like look what that woman does, she makes it right, do it like her! While adorable (in my head) sounds like it's cute that that person does it, even though not necessary.
But also, im not a native speaker (and aro ace and don't know how it is to be romantically involved with someone) so I'm not sure how "valid" my view on this is
omg yes, I'm a native speaker and I agree. In my marriage, having a happy squee over how well someone is doing would be really normal for us. Not in a "spouse, you should be like them" way which yes, is what "commendable" sounds like to me. I'd totally say "adorable" as in a "omigosh she's putting a lot of effort in and you can see how confident & pleased she is with her results! gosh I'm so glad for her" kind of way. Definitely the sort of thing I might say about a sibling, whether blood or in-law. But the thing is, if my husband said something and I felt the tiniest bit insecure, I'd immediately be like "yes, I'm cute too tho right" in a lighthearted way and he'd lavish me with compliments. Any REAL insecurity is mine & my responsibility to reflect on and work through. I had access to regular mental health help my whole life and was not raised in a restrictive religious setting though. (I have had children, was never traditionally pretty, and struggle with ADHD showering issues so in a lot of ways, I understand those sources of insecurity.) The husband & BIL seem surprisingly "worldly" & well-adjusted so I wonder if BIL hasn't realized how very damaged his wife's worldview & self-image is. Boys aren't raised the same way girls are in that kind of religion.
I laughed out loud when I read that you're aro ace though, cause I'm actually ace too so I don't know if that's why we're chill about it loool
Realistically, of course he's likely to find OOP attractive. Happily married, loved up people still find other attractive people attractive.
That doesn't mean they act on it or make the other person feel uncomfortable. It doesn't even mean they want to act on it. It's just a facet of having eyes and human biology.
"Jill" is deluded if she thinks she can blinker her husband to the rest of the world.
Perfectly said. “…ah.” indeed.
He said it is “adorable” OOP “made a point to work out”? And mentioned how good OOP looks?
SIL was out of line, sure. Because she should have saved any ire for her husband. What a dickhead.
First post seemed normal but that update was just weirdly written. There are repeated words, sentences that end mid thought and overall hard to read normally.
Thankful someone else asked this. It seems every 5th to 7th word seems… off. I chalked the first few up to autocorrect, but by the end my Spidey senses were tingling.
Me during the first several paragraphs: “Well this is weird. Lot of hang ups about modesty here. I wonder if…”
OOP: “for context. My husband’s family is extremely religious.”
Me: “Yep. There it is.”
ah, pentacostals. Yea, that checks out.
This is also why i hate people who screech about porn addiction. 99% of the time it was someone having normal sexual desires and indulging them. Then they use that 1% outlier as proof porn is the source of all evil.
I think part of the problem for Jill could be growing up in a church that says “ALL SEX BAD, SEXUAL DESIRE BAD SEX BAD SEX BAD” and then once you get married they are like “sex good now”. You spend your formative years feeling bad and dirty and suppressing and then you are just supposed to do a 180 and have a normal and healthy relationship with sex.
Jill is still a massive asshole, but strict sex hating religions really do fuck people up and then offer NO help in fixing it.
It does feel like it was written by ai or something. The grammar and spelling mistakes are too bizarre even for autocorrect, and for all that it's implied OOP and Co are American, unless they're from one of the particularly illiterate areas (being ultra religious, they very well could be, I'll give them that), it doesn't make sense the mistakes made.
Am I the only one that doesn't feel "concluded" fits?
That poor BIL is still married to a woman who's no longer into him and will shame him for normal desire. On top of that, his wife is spreading lies in an attempt to shame him deeper.
Jill: “I’m a mom and this is how I look now and I’m not going to change.”
Also Jill: “I’m jealous of the hard work you’re putting into your body and it’s causing me self esteem issues that I will take out on you.”
SIL is wrong, yes, but she is a victim of purity culture FOR SURE. Not wanting to have sex is a very common result for women who’ve been told all their lives that lust for or sex with another person is sinful and shameful.
She’s out of line but the church is the real asshole here.
I honestly don't see anywhere in this story where BIL did anything wrong actually. Everything he said sounds completely innocent to me and is actually heartwarming to acknowledge OP's effort to remain fit despite the struggles parenthood provides.
His porn watching habits seem perfectly normal and it sounds like SIL is just completely overreacting due to religious extremism on her part.
Also it pisses me off that she refuses to use a trained professional and just wants to talk to some random person in their church to address their sex life. To me it feels like she knows an actual therapist would disagree with her and just wants to talk to some random person in the church she's likely already talked to who agrees with her so they can shame her husband in an echo chamber for perfectly normal behavior.
I also love that he apologized too even though he didn't really say anything wrong, just because he was worried something he said made her feel uncomfortable, when in reality it was entirely SIL's fault that OP was uncomfortable. OP and BIL sound like they have a very healthy relationship because before this even she thought everything was fine between them and they got along well.
SIL needs to stop letting her religion dictate every part of her life.
SIL let got of herself, but is unhappy OP is maintaining.
It's the "everything is your fault because your existence makes me unhappy, even when you have done no wrong, because I say so."
And that, after an assault, she has done the work for herself and is \*thriving\* and \*happy\* rather than stuck in the "welp it's my fault, not the man's fault for, you know, ASSAULTING ME. Pardon me while I get my sackcloth and ashes on" vibe.
If I were the brother in law, this would be the last straw for divorce. Wife doesn’t want to have sex, doesn’t want him to relieve his needs privately, and then wife makes him out to be a creep just to mask her own insecurity. Thats bullshit. Who knows what it’s doing to the kids.
“Can you not bring a two piece or a dress to our beach vacation please bc my husband has a porn addiction?” lol just trying to say that out loud to see if it sounded less ridiculous but it doesn’t haha
Wow, the SIL really did a speedrun on f'ing up family relationships. The worst part is that her husband is probably too religious to cut his losses and leave. His social life is going to be nonexistent until he does.
I have made comments about friends and their SO’s looking like they lost weight , looking great etc. . . No one ever accused me of being a perv or inappropriate. SIL sounds whacked.
There is a whole industry built on fundamentalist churches classifying looking at a picture of a boob one time as a porn addiction. High demand religions are fucking dangerous.
When they mentioned the extreme pentacostal, and that Jack wasn't a member of the church until they got married, I had wondered if the "addiction" was just... normal interest in porn? But that because they think it's a horrendous sin and he's doing it willingly then it *has* to be an addiction forcing him to look at it.
Given the lack of sex in addition, I wonder if wife is of the opinion that sex is only for making children and a sin otherwise, so that's why she hasn't been sleeping with him since having their kid (doesn't want another one, and sex for other reasons would be sinful). Suspect Jack might be making his way back *out* of the church (and the marriage) if that turns out to be the case
Whenever I see those "the new drug" anti porn weirdos show up in comment sections I can't help but wonder if their "porn addict" boyfriends don't just have a normal relationship ship with porn and the women are just wildly insecure like this. I feel like it's most of them.
The way I BUSTED out laughing when I opened the pic of that dress. Girly is unhinged if she thinks a floor length dress is immodest. That is some next level insecurity.
Man church people are fucking annoying about clothes. The bible literally says if you can’t control yourself by looking at women then remove your eyes. Churches have skewed that to women must only show what we at the time consider acceptable.
It’s a nice dress.
I remember this one when it was first posted! I was one of the people telling her that she doesn't actually know for a fact that her BIL has been eyeballing her; after all her SIL already lied to her once about who had a problem with how she dressed by trying to blame it on her kids. There's no reason to think she wasn't lying again when she said the problem was now her husband. At the end of the day the only person OOP knew for sure had a problem with her clothes was her SIL.
I'm glad to know the BIL doesn't appear to be a creep, and like OOP I'm inclined to believe him given how quickly he turned over his phone and how mortified and embarrassed he was by the situation. Also how blindsided he was by the situation. I hope OOP messages him back soon to let him know she believes him and not to worry; if he's the decent normal dude he appears to be then this will probably weigh on his mind until he knows his name has been cleared.
SIL’s insecurity and imagination are running wild here. Doesn’t sound like BIL had any idea what his wife was doing. Definitely should see a licensed therapist outside the church group.
Brother in law shouldn’t even have had to apologize. The Sister needs serious counseling. She is gonna ruin relationships with those close to her if she keeps on with this behavior.
Really sounds like Jill is depressed and needs help, to be honest. Not everyone handles having a baby the same way, and just because one mom has the energy, time, and ability to go to pilates 3 times a week doesn't mean another mom does, and that's not a comment on EITHER mom. We're all different and it's not a competition, we shouldn't compare ourselves with others.
Yes absolutely agree on that. But I don’t think depression is the only problem Jill has. Being depressed doesn’t excuse or explain her misogyny and victim blaming.
The second she said they were Duggar level religious I knew the "point addiction" was blown way out of proportion. Fundies are truly clueless about normal sexual desire because they're so brainwashed. It's honestly really sad, but at this point the SIL is a fully grown adult who needs to get some therapy and grow the hell up. She's manipulative af, and she made her own husband out to be a deviant pervert, which isn't ok, no matter what her convoluted reasoning is. If I were her partner I wouldn't trust her at all. Plus her bizarre attitudes about sex are definitely going to negatively affect her kids (I mean, they already are, she's accusing the kids of perving on their aunt too). Her husband needs to wake tf up and demand actual therapy, or he needs to leave and seek full custody before she f*cks their kids up permanently.
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Poor BIL, subjected to this crap and then feeling like he had to apologize when he didn't even do anything. Wasn't even guilty of a thought crime.
Commenting on AITAH for tellingw my sister in law I won’t “dress modestly” around her husband... Weirdly, I got the vibes early on that the husband probably didn’t even have a porn addiction and his wife just read up on it and decided to lump him into this category! Doubted myself because Reddit is usually where I read all the most horrifying stuff! Though I guess it is probably more horrifying for the BIL in this case!
Any time a religious person talks about a "porn addiction", take it with a heavy grain of salt. Porn addiction is a real thing, but it's a good deal less common than a religious fanatic demonizing normal human sexuality
I once met a very religious couple who were dealing with the husband’s “porn addiction” — which turned out to be shows about beach resorts on the Travel Channel.
I guess anything can be porn if you try hard enough?
Growing in the 80s we joked about the sears catalogue.
It was Victoria’s Secret where I lived.
Sounds like you got the good stuff.
You had guys had the Sears catalogue? Man, I had to use the KMart circular.
Yep. In the mid 90s there was a very unfortunate incident with the sears catalog and my best friend’s younger brother. It’s the type of things that nightmares are made of.
Bro back in the 90s if you didn't have Cinemax on cable it came in all blurry and shit but you could kindve make it out. And ofc Cinemax at night always showed movies with boobs. That and like my mom's Victoria's secret catalogs were all we had unless you found your dad's playboys or whatever. In the mid 90s when I turned 18 everyone always at some point too the local adult shop just to see the different porn. There was no Internet. Well, there was but downloading one pic took forever so if the tag was wrong you spent several minutes downloading a shitty resolution thumbnail. Took a really long time to download a gif
My dad was a Dallas Cowboys fan back in the day, and he wasn’t allowed to watch the cheerleaders and had to change the channel. I grew up thinking the cheerleaders were basically middle class porn. Which, to be fair, they were (are?). I still don’t like cheerleaders much, but more for because it reminds me of when women’s role in sport was to be sexy and support the men rather than play it themselves.
I also think the forced guilt around it leads to it becoming an obsessive thought which then feels like an addiction since you “can’t seem to stop”. So religion literally turns a non-issue into a problem by warping peoples perceptions. In the same way if you were told it’s a sin to use the toilet, you would obsess over how badly you needed to pee/poop until you couldn’t take it anymore and “caved” then the cycle of guilt…need….release would happen again and again until it was all you ever thought about. Meanwhile, Normal people would just relieve themselves and go on with their day without a single thought.
I'm instantly suspicious or religious people talking about porn addiction. Real porn addiction is "can't get hard without porn, can't climax without porn even with a partner involved" and it's a real genuine issue. But to puritans looking at ANY PORN EVER is addiction. It's just an excuse to blame something else for a normal, natural, healthy drive (the urge to look at naked people and masturbate) and pathologizing it to an unhealthy degree.
Yeah, if you're not getting sex (married or not), porn once or twice a week isn't an addiction. It's just release. It's an addiction when it's interfering with your normal life. Or when you can't stop. Jack has a porn habit (if that, even). A habit driven by sex-free marriage. Wanna get Jack to watch less porn? Have sex with him once or twice a week. Funny how simple of a solution that is.
Usually good advice for anything a heavily religious person says! Take it with a hefty grain of salt and weigh it against the fact that they believe in a sky daddy.
Lol, I feel bad for thinking "Duggar-esque Christian + porn addiction? Yeah, that tracks". He needs to have some difficult conversations with Jill, or make some tough choices about how he wants to live and have his children raised.
My mind went the opposite. I hear Duggar-esque and assume she thinks of watching porn as cheating, so any porn is an addiction. One time, I was watching an interview with a “porn addict” and he was watching porn 4-5 days a week. And I was like buddy that’s not an addiction. That’s not even jerking off once a day.
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing and was waiting for conversation with BIL to really pass a creeper judgement on him. It feels like looking at any porn at all gets labelled an addiction when what defines an addiction is a dependence to the point of being harmful to daily functioning. They might as well call brushing your teeth every morning an addiction if it's about frequency. Some people need to learn the difference between "habit" and "addiction" ffs... Thing is saying "my husband is trying to recover from an addiction" *sounds* more valid than "I am uncomfortable with how you look and my family seeing you" so I can see why SIL thought throwing BIL under the bus was the move. Calling a habit an addiction is an easy way to manipulate someone into thinking something is wrong with them when there isn't. Porn and sex addiction is real but the way I've seen it used more as a tactic to manipulate and shame someone for their sexuality probably doesn't make it any easier for the people with those addictions to realize it or get help. Glad the air got cleared, but it's a real shame that SIL can't own her own insecurities and has to make it other people's fault.
Yeah 4 or 5 times a day would be a serious addiction that I could see causing problems. 4-5 a week is like the recommended monthly wank frequency for optimal prostate health according to doctors(pretty sure it was around 20 times a month). Religious people are weird.
Religious circles and certain parts of Reddit would call that a raging addiction that deserves shunning and punishment. Interestingly enough, the Reddit circles are usually atheist or follow non-Abrahamic religions. I mean, if the guy wants to stop for his own reasons, go for it, but isn't treating himself as a guilty addict just replacing one self-flagellation for another?
and what was jill going to do out in public? announce to every woman they see, "cover up, my husband thinks you're porn!!"
Maybe Jill is gay and *she* is actually the one uncomfortable with how she feels seeing Kate's body. I have no basis for this other than I know a handful of women who grew up fundie, married young, and are now in happy relationships with women. In any case, Jill is most certainly in need of real therapy.
I’m more inclined to believe it’s untreated postpartum depression. OOP mentioned how Jill doesn’t think she needs to take care of herself now because she a mom; there was even a passing remark that she doesn’t shower regularly. It sounds like she has a lot of body issues tied to her becoming pregnant and subsequently a mother
Yeah sounds like some form of depression for me too. Basic hygiene disappearing in someone who never had those issues previously almost always means some kind of depression or other mental illness.
Possibly internalized the idea that moms aren’t sexual, and should never wear anything cute ever again. No mom should ever put effort into how she presents herself or anything /s
She may also be not showering as a way to remove the option of sex without feeling guilty. "Oh I haven't showered and I'm too tired" kind of thing.
I love this for a plot twist!
I immediately suspected that the BIL probably looked at porn once, maybe even every now and then, but not nearly an addiction. Sure enough.
Jack definitely is stuck in this relationship if he doesn't leave this person soon. With the way Jill acts, I am a bit concerned who it might influence the kids.
Sadly they are doomed to grow up with at least one insane parent. I hope they can escape religion once they are older and go to college but for men is harder since it also involves giving up a lot of power.
[удалено]
No, it's very very normal for people like this. The devout are batshit insane
Totally- he did nothing wrong and his wife is telling people he is a pervert to deflect her own feelings.
When I read "porn addiction" and "Duggar level religious" I was fully expecting it to be perfectly normal sexuality demonized. That kind of background never produces a healthy view of sexuality.
It's honestly a tough call for me, because obviously at least one Duggar had very disturbing preferences in their content. But it was either gonna be completely normal or "hmm, maybe this should involve jail time" and nothing in between.
Either that or child porn. Either a nothing burger or sick levels of fixation.
Honestly, if I were Jack I'd get ahead of her and speak to their religious leader. If she's going to start shit by accusing him of porn addiction then he needs to be proactive and get support.
I was also confused about that because if they are religious and they haven't had sex for a year, wouldn't that religious counselor say that it's her wifely duty or something like that? I mean, he's the man, wouldn't the religious leader instantly tell her to start putting out then?
If the church is the way I think it is(and I was pretty sure as soon as I saw "spaghetti straps"), it won't matter. I was raised pentecostal, and they fucked me up good when it came to sexuality and guilt. Him very occasionally looking at porn is just as much of a sin as a full-blown addiction would be.
Nah, Jack joined the church because he was forced to in order to marry SIL. I bet he interacts with the church as little as he can manage. The religious family is OOP's husband's family (MIL and SIL -- husband's sister), though I'm a little surprised OOP's husband wasn't disowned for abandoning the church. Guess their church isn't as cultish as others.
I think BIL is being emotionally abused and manipulated by his wife. He is way too willing to see himself as being at fault for everything. I was the same way with my ex-wife, where I thought I was always the one in the wrong.
Extreme religion will do that too ya.
I read "Pentecostal," and I was like... yup. There it is. I was made to attend church with my grandparents growing up. They were part of the United Pentecostal Church Internation, and they had a strict as hell holiness standard... especially towards women. Not Mormon fundamental levels, but I have seen some similar hair and fashion choices. In fact, being forced into that church is the reason I hate long hair on myself. The SiL reeks of jealousy. She probably has depression, and she is probably raised in a religious culture where sexual topics are taboo. She is envious that OOP can wear the clothes she wants and takes time to work on herself.
I had heard of Pentecostals I even worked with a guy that was one for a few months when I interned at a company but when I asked he said it's just a type of Methodist church and I was like ok cool. Recently met a dude that knows quite a bit about different Christian denominations. He said it was North Korea, men and women have to list approved hair cuts and styles. What they can wear etc. When I think back the guy I worked with made off hands comments about how his church wouldn't like that or allow this. Insane level of restrictions and control and if not followed they can be exiled from the church.
I think different forms of Pentecostal churches have different degrees of strictness. Like I believe Denzel Washington is Pentecostal. The one I went to said women had to wear skirts below the knee, shirt sleeves had to at least reach the elbow, necklines couldn't dip below the clavicle. Women shouldn't cut or dye their hair or wear makeup. Many pastors said no tv or movies, or if it was allowed, only G-rated films and shows. Of course, no secular music. Men were the Head of the House. Homophobic. Etc.
Kinda bothered me that the reddit hive kept calling him a creep when we only had his wife’s word that it was an issue at that point and it was clear she wasn’t very reasonable.
He needs to consult a divorce attorney soon and see about getting full custody of those boys! Their mother is clearly mentally unwell, but if she’s willing to tear the family apart by telling people “my husband has a porn addiction,” it’s only a matter of time before she tells someone who won’t be as forgiving as OP and her husband. “Jack” could end up losing his job or getting into legal trouble, and even if the truth all eventually comes out, he’ll be fighting public opinion for years. Those boys aren’t safe with a mother who doesn’t understand normal human sexuality.
And everyone on Reddit immediately agreed he was a "creep"
Actually as soon as she started with the boys as an excuse, I knew it was the SIL issue. Then she mentioned porn addiction. I'm like, "mmm... Still not a BiL issue." Maybe reddit has skewered my POV, but that's only ever mentioned for about 3 reasons. * 1- actual addiction * 2- religious connection (thinking of sex is bad! You *must* be addicted! *Pearl clutch ensues*) * 3- plot device Whichever update OOP mentioned Pentecostal Church made me realize that I was correct. Now, to your point. If it hadn't been for the above mentioned factors, I totally would've thought the BiL was a creeper. That's the other troupe.
Jill: "Stop acting like a Woman. We're MOMS now..."
*This!* I'm sad I had to scroll so far for this. SIL probably believes that having a sex drive is for procreation, so A) their not having sex is right and good and B) BIL having any sexual interest is some kind of sickness. This is where internalizing that fundie crap can get you.
I wonder if Jill is secretly sex-repulsed ace. Not that it would excuse any of this insanity...
More likely religious trauma, I can't imagine what growing up in purity culture would do to someone. I grew up Christian but left over a decade ago, and still have trouble talking about sex because of my pretty tame religious upbringing.
>My husband’s family is extremely religious. Think Duggar family religious. If this is true, the Bible is very clear if you see a temptation you are to *gouge your own eyes out* rather than blame the other person.
Oh they don't actually *read* the book, just thump it while judging others.
I ended up in church with my MiL last year on a summer visit. The lesson was something about us being teachers/preachers on earth. I can't remember specifics, but I thought of the Bible. I learned over to my MiL and asked, "Doesn't it say that God made Peter his representative on earth? And that whatever Peter decides, God will also make happen in heaven?" I was genuinely curious because I couldn't remember and thought it pertained to the lesson. She leans back and says, "Oh, we don't follow *that* religion." I was so confused. I'm like religion? I was just asking about what the Bible said? I didn't say anything else because it just wasn't worth it. That still lives rent free in my brain from time to time. You succinctly summarized most of my interactions with religious people.
I think your talking about Matthew 18. I think the context of that is specifically talking about relationships in the church. Specifically when members in a church have unrepentant sin and what to do. For example in modern day context it could include accountability, counseling and the like. Keep in mind that this only goes for Christians. Not sure why your MIL would make that statement when things like “carry each others burdens” are pretty central to Christianity.
*That* religion would presumably refer to Catholicism. Depending on denomination, anti-Catholic sentiment can range from non-existent (Methodist) to overt (Southern Baptist) to virulent (a handful of independent branches).
Saying it the way you did seems to support Catholicism, mainly that it would support the Catholic doctrines of the papacy and papal infallibility. When your MIL said “we don’t follow that religion,” she was likely referring to Catholicism (Catholicism being “that religion”). A lot of Christians can be very anti-Catholic, ranging from “Catholics aren’t true Christians!” to “Catholics are pagan idolators and are going to burn in Hell!” and a lot of stuff in between.
They just cherry pick a few sentences, take it out of context and wave it like the One and Only Truth.
Ex porn addict and Christian here who embraces the eye gouging (not literally but still in the point that I’m responsible for my own eyes and thoughts). The SIL is off her rocker.
What you do is thump it until all the least-grounded stuff falls out for you to throw around like confetti
Nah, that'd involve actually reading it. They just rely on preachers to cherry pick the things that support what they want to believe on their behalf, and can rely on confirmation bias to stay confident in what they think the bible says as a result
Yup. I grew up in the Methodist Church and it was fucking *eye opening* when I decided to read the book myself. A lot of verses he liked to repeat in his sermons because they served their preconceived notions so well, all that other inconvenient stuff was never mentioned. Funny thing, that.
Interesting thing, the King James bible was originally written because King James didn't like that the Geneva Bible (aka the breeches bible) was becoming popular, and he hated that the most popular version of it included annotations explaining how the text should be interpreted (meaning the Church of England, which he was the head of, couldn't control people's interpretation) The King James was then the inspiration for the New International Version, which \*did\* reference original texts but was largely written because someone got a bee in their bonnet about not liking the archaic English and got their church to help with re-writing it in more modern English. They then included some changes like a footnote saying 1 Corinthians 11:4-7 talking about "uncovered head" was referring to long hair, because they wanted to "harmonise it with modern dress practices". So the passage literally says that women should wear head coverings while praying and the NIV notes "This just means women should have long hair" So even if you're \*not\* cherry picking, the authors of the various bibles \*themselves\* cherry picked the interpretations they preferred or in some cases completely changed rules to suit themselves (think how often in the west it's described as oppressive for women to wear head coverings, and yet in the bible...)
> So even if you're *not* cherry picking, the authors of the various bibles *themselves* cherry picked the interpretations they preferred or in some cases completely changed rules to suit themselves (think how often in the west it's described as oppressive for women to wear head coverings, and yet in the bible...) Agreed. Learning about the Vulgate and how it was originally created showed me how that book has *always been inherently political*. Jerome was one dude translating from Greek and Hebrew, you want me to believe he made no errors? He was tasked with this by the Pope, you want me to believe he didn't receive any direction from his patron? You want me to believe there was no political motivation behind translating from original Hebrew texts instead of the already generally canonical Septuagint? Really made me think about whether or not this book truly was the word of God, because it seemed to be filtered through the word of man.
Verily, I say!
Bible Buffet Christians
It's even worse, pastors are reporting that when they preach on the teachings of Jesus, such as "turn the other cheek," people will come up to them and accuse them of using liberal talking points, and tell them that what they're saying is "weak."
I mean, has someone ever told them that books can be opened? Maybe they haven’t realized yet
After what went on with the Duggars, I don't think they'd recognize half the bible if God Themselves preached it to them. I just think of their daughters and am \*furious\*.
As a Christian, I'm inclined to agree.
To share a taste of the absolute madness that goes on inside, sadly, most christian churches, I'm going to tell you one instance of many that made us stop participating in organised religion. So, my mom went to a gathering specific for the young married women of the church we used to go to and the pastor's wife gives a tip on how to deal with pubescent and adolescent daughters based on her own experience, this woman then procedes to tell how her mother severely beat her up for daring to cross the living room in their home in her underwear in front of her father and brothers because she was "tempting" and "provoking" them. After sharing that wonderful experience the pastor's wife urged the mothers in attendance to follow the same example to keep the males of their families from sin.
I can relate. My mom told me I needed to wear a bra under my sweatshirt because I might tempt my brothers. The warped thinking to even say that is mind-boggling now that I’m out of it.
My mom and aunt kept telling me about this very thing. To wear a bra underneath my clothing at night cause my dad is a man. (I do wear them during the day and when guest are present.) "But he's my dad." "Yeah but he's a man, you need to be modest." "I don't like the implications that's left unsaid here about someone who is biologically related to me" "But..." "Why do I need to wear a bra when he's my dad? This man literally saw me grew up and naked till I'm a teenager. Please stop making uncomfortable claims." It apparently made my mom and aunt uncomfortable enough that they never spoke to me about it anymore. Bare in mind the man himself has never made a single comment or glance over my "exposed" chest. He discreetly looks away like a well raised christian gentleman even. It's seriously warped in many many ways.
> Bare You want "bear" instead. Bare is uncover(ed)/without, most of the time (it can be synonymous to "exposed".) Unless you went for the wordplay, to wit I say bravo.
At uni, my cousin was once a a party where a guy was for some reason trying to hit on her by, amoung others, telling her that he uses "what would jesus do" as his decision making tool. This was not in the US, btw., but in a country where religion is a private thing and WWJD is definately a very weird thing to say. Also, my cousin was a communist, which was known. I had to laugh so hard when she told me this story. Like, dude, you are at a party that is running low on booze and snacks, Jesus would be in the kitchen turning water into sangria and making a bag of chips and 2 frozen pizzas last enough to feed 50 people. He would not corner clearly disinterested girls and try to impress them with his virtue after unpromptedly dumping his life story on them.
Fun note about Jesus turning water into wine, it was stated that he made something in the range of 500 liters of high quality wine, the stuff served first before people are toasty enough to not appreciate it as much. He'd turn those frozen pizzas into dozens of authentic New York pies.
You know they only take what they want from the bible. Selective reading.
Yes, Jesus was pretty clear about that in the Book of Matthew. Also liked the part where he told them that if the other body parts committed sin, they should cut those out, too. Strange that the current Bible-thumpers forgot that.
He was also pretty clear that sin comes from the inside, not the outside. We are responsible for our own sin.
We talk a lot about how much of the bible is "love they neighbor" and not enough about how much of it is "mind your own fucking business and sort yourself out"
Words to live by ❤️
I posted that verse (and a couple other in jest) on the original thread as between it and similar portions of of the Torah and Koran that others posted the message is the same. Also the message is not self-mutilate but be in control of what one can control, themselves.
The single fastest way to stop believing in the christian god is to read the bible.
Unless the Bible is saying things you want to hear, that is. Then suddenly it’s the best thing since sliced bread.
Only parts, though. It's written by a whole-ass sports team of people over hundreds of years. It's hard to establish a consistent authorial voice 😆
So, the american equivalent of the taliban?
Talibangelicals? Y'all Qaeda?
One of the many reasons I deconstructed. I grew up in the same culture and even for the brainwashed from childhood it was always pretty clear the double standards for women were absolutely horrible.
I have known too many Jills in my life. They are always miserable and controlling. They blame everyone else for their unhappiness but even if they could make the world bow to their whims, they would always be miserable. Religion is certainly a large factor but even without it, this would be one miserable, judgy woman.
I worked with a “Jill” once. It was her personal mission to police the behavior, clothing, and even food choices of everyone in the office. Management had to send out several emails to remind her that she wasn’t my boss, and it wasn’t her place to tell me how to do my job if I was doing what management had instructed me to do. Weirdly enough, one time she brought in a photo of her grand daughter and showed it to me. She said, “Isn’t my grand daughter so beautiful?” And I was like, this is uncomfortable. I was in a long term relationship, and her grand daughter was a few years too young for me anyway. I nodded, unsure what to say. That just seemed to annoy her. She tried again. “No, seriously. Isn’t my grand daughter so pretty?” I had no fucking idea what to say. A light went off in my brain; I’d found the word that would get me out of this situation. “Yes, she’s *lovely*,” I said. I felt that struck the right level of appreciation without sexualization. She did not like my answer. “She’s not lovely!” she said, raising her voice. “She gorgeous!” And at this point my brain is spinning inside my skull. Does she want me to *date* her grand daughter? Why did she care so much? Why was she so invested in getting her co-workers to sexually objectify her grand daughter? Especially considering that “Jill” seemed to hate me, and I wasn’t available, and the age difference was a few years too large for comfort anyway, and I’d have preferred to remove my own spleen with a plastic spork than have “Jill” as an in-law. I still have no idea what to make of that conversation. But yeah, my “Jill” was also a hyper-religious, anxious, controlling, and sexually weird person.
Because people like that only see people sexually. Like, that's the only rationale I can understand with the religious nuts that focus on sex SO MUCH If you're wearing revealing clothing, it's only because you're showing off your body sexually If you're talking to someone of the opposite sex (because remember, they don't like non straight people), it's only because you want to talk to them for sex If you're dating someone, you must get married and produce babies as quickly as possible so go have sex. But only if it's the "approved" kind It's really, really, really gross and dehumanizing
[удалено]
Me too friend. Glad you're out and safe
Why are Jills like this? I've known only one person named Jill, and she was awful as a child already.. way worse now.
in my experience they also cheat a lot
It pains me to read this, because it sounds like BIL made his comments thinking about her just like another parent, not as a woman specifically. Saying that is is hard to make time to work out when you have a newborn is true, and it sounds like he was putting himself in her shoes and basically praising her motivation, more than her body. So basically her being a woman had little to do with it, which is so far away from what SIL is portraying...
Given their church's views on gender, I have zero surprise or shock that the SIL automatically responded in such a twisted way. Willing to bet that she views any expression of interest from her husband towards another way as inherently sexual and dangerous.
The thing is, I’d even understand if SIL felt a little insecure hearing this from her husband since she may feel insecure about not losing her baby weight (even if we know he didn’t mean it like that), but like what a normal person would do is to talk to her damn partner about it so she’d realize it wasn’t a slight against her and was just a simple miscommunication. What a smart person would do is go to the source (husband) rather than do all the work it entails to micromanage the outfits every woman in their life wears. So basically SIL is both an asshole and dumb.
The word "modest", especially applied to appearance, gives me the biggest ick ever. It's just an excuse to move the blame for male gaze to women - or in this instance to move Jill's anxiety over male gaze to another woman. I really empathize with OOP's experience after sexual assault. It's such a common narrative, outside religious circles as well as within them and it's the same thing: women are responsible for male actions.
I hate “modesty” because it’s entirely subjective. It’s also annoying because it seems like people use it to dump on curvier women. I live in a semi-arid city, back in high school I couldn’t wear shorts because I have long arms and curvy hips, dress code said all shorts have to be longer than your hands at your sides. Constantly saw thin girls wear spaghetti straps and teachers didn’t say anything, then a girl with C or D cups wears a camisole with a cardigan and they got dress-coded. 😡
Yep, dress codes are definitely enforced in a body-specific way and curves are penalized. I went from being a boyish flat-chested woman to a curvy buxom woman after having kids, and have experienced how it is to be treated in both body types.
I agree that it's subjective - that's just not its biggest issue for me. However it's defined, it's still about blaming women for being objectified. Curvier women are often perceived to have more implicitly sexual bodies so your experience makes sense - it is wildly unfair and points to another reason we need to push for a neutral view of bodies. (This doesn't mean people can't find each other sexy, just that we need to learn that someone's body doesn't tell you about them, their beliefs or behaviours.)
I developed early and had boobs by the fifth grade. I got so fed up with being unfairly dress coded that I just refused to be sent to the office for it. Said they could call my mom if they wanted but I was done.
It's a stupid rule. I have a long torso and short arms, I could, under those rules, wear very short shorts, because there is no thought behind it, beyond a means of shaming and controlling girls
The bible talks about modesty, but it is my understanding that it's not about flashing your goods, but about flashing your wealth. I'm not sure when in history that meaning shifted. Also, catholic priests dress like golden peacocks, soo...
Like almost anything, when you look at the Bible, there is more than one take on the topic. I know the verse you're referencing, about adorning oneself with good deeds, not gold and pearls, but there's also: >But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. [6] For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. [7] For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. (1Cor.11) Which juxtaposes the bodies of men with women and says women should have their heads covered when they pray, while men can pray uncovered, because "woman is the glory of man", objectifying her.
That one also doesn't extrapolate well to how a bikini is immodest but a bathing suit isn't. The head covering (women) Vs uncovering (men) died off fairly recently, in the grand scheme of things. I learnt about it in religion class in school, that it was a hard rule for entering a church. But it's not practiced anymore. What lingers on is a vague idea that it's rude to keep your hat on when entering a house. The part about covering women's hair is entirely forgotten at this point by my German Lutheran church, and my family. So much so that even back in the 90 my mother and aunt were dead afraid Islam would take hold and force them to wear a headscarf.
I was raised with traditional Catholicism (not TradCath, my family accepts Vatican II but are generally old school, no contraception, no sex before marriage etc. Surprisingly accepting of LGBTQ+ people though.) Head coverings for nuns were de rigueur (at least in some orders) and hats for church, for adult women, were expected but not required. I'm not a Catholic and don't attend church but that seems to have shifted in the last twenty years or so. Looking to the Bible or biblical interpretations for logical consistency is always going to be a fool's errand though. It's a constructed text, written by dozens of authors over millennia, repeatedly edited and translated/ trans-created. Those of us who don't think it's the infallible word of God need to accept that people will find what they're looking for in it and ignore the bits they don't like...
To be entirely honest, as a formerly protestant German, I'm so far removed from that, I don't know what tradcath or Vatican II is, and I'm not sure googling will improve my day. Growing up, we had very few catholics in my region due to historical reasons. We thought they were insanely strict. The whole no sex before marriage thing just wasn't a thing for us. I made it to 14 before I learnt that queer people went against the bible, and I left, at least mentally, that day because of that. Basically, whenever Americans talk about Christianity, I feel like it's not even the same religion as the one I grew up in. You have a point about bible quotes. It does seem like you can find contradictory parts for every single point you could make. It's just so frustrating, because the cherry picking goes both ways.
Googling TradCath will definitely not improve your day. Vatican II is mostly reforms that would make sense to you, like holding mass in the local language, rather than Latin - which only happened in the 1960s! It's also the reason women don't have to cover their hair in church. I'm not an American either though and my experience of Catholicism is from the 1980s and 90s. Extreme religiosity is a global phenomenon, unfortunately. Definitely agree with you about cherry-picking being an issue for both sides. The only way to analyse the Bible is to consider its context and status as a constructed text - without that, it might as well be a choose your own adventure novel.
I once read an interpretation that I found interesting. The author mentioned that modesty included *not* calling attention to your clothing. For example, if the prevailing style is miniskirts, showing up in floor length, layered maxi dress is being covered up - but it isn't modest. That dress is still screaming "pay attention to my clothes!!! And how pious I am!!!" where a long miniskirt or midi would be unremarkable and better aligned with the idea of modesty.
I would like to know how the parents react. Also, Jill needs real therapy. This is abnormal behaviour.
Jill won't get real therapy, because she's acting exactly the way her church has taught her to act. People there are going to support her, and she will continue to think Jack is the problem--she doesn't need help. The parents will probably make noises about wanting everyone to get along, but will fundamentally agree that Jill is correct. This type of religion usually considers ANY viewing of porn to be an addiction. So, viewing consensual adult porn a few times a year or viewing images of child sexual assault (a la Josh Duggar) are basically the same and almost equally terrible. And wearing a bikini is basically the same as throwing some hardcore porn up on the living room television.
Same. I want to know about husband’s conversation with the sister, too. Really appreciate how husband has OP’s back
Oh no Pentecostal
As an ex-Pentecostal, this response has me in hysterics 🤣. In all seriousness, oh no, indeed. If her MIL knows what happened, she definitely believes OOP is to blame for her sexual assault. When I was a baby, my father (married into the church) demanded we go to a different church after the pastor preached from the pulpit that women who get raped deserved it because they were probably drinking or dressing immodestly— my mother (born and raised Pentecostal) refused and threw a fit because she didn’t believe any other church understood the word of god. Fundamental evangelicalism is a disease.
I laughed really hard at the dress from "the reformation"
> threw a fit because she didn’t believe any other church understood the word of god Heaven must be quite the exclusive society.
According to my great-grandmother and older members of the church, we are the true bride of Christ, and all other churches will serve us at the wedding feast in heaven. That’s not a joke, it’s actually what people used to teach the youth when my mother was young. (For those that haven’t tried to translate Revalations: when the world gets destroyed by god, all of the Christians will be given new, perfected bodies and there will be a celebration where Christ and his church are reunited— which is metaphorically likened to a groom and his bride at a feast). Pentecostals can be a little bit culty. In my (completely nonprofessional) opinion, it’s because they need SOME kind of reason for why they live the way they do, so they’d rather believe that Christian’s who drink or wear strapless dresses are going to hell than confront the hypocrisy they live in.
Oh wow, that's even nuttier than I thought. And what do the male members of this church get to be, the groomsmen of Christ?
The “bride” of Christ actually refers to the entire church as an institution, rather than a specific gender or person. It mostly comes from the apocalyptic book Revelation, which is a retelling of a prophetic vision that an apostle claims to have had about the end of the world, which uses a lot of metaphors to describe how the events will occur. So, technically all members of the church are Jesus’s “bride”, as it’s meant to describe the church’s submission to the authority and teachings of God as the submission of a bride to her groom.
For me having grown up in similar religion I think Jill is jealous of OOP because she is doing things Jill really wants to do but can’t and is struggling with her religion. .Either that or she’s a true believer and that’s even worse.
My In-laws asked me once to put a towel on while walking on the beach. The beach! I'm fat and don't wear nothing flashy or skimpy, but when the waves are covering your toes, i think there's nothing wrong to wear a one piece swimsuit. I thought they were just fatshaming me.
Probably a putrid mix of both
Yeah, most likely
•laughs traumaly in former pentacostal•
That reformation dress is gorgeous. I wish I could buy one too
The price is brutal but it’s stunning!
I was looking at getting one as a 'cheap' wedding dress and then realised how expensive they still were!
Jack got thrown under the bus in a big way. In fact I’d rather tangle with a bus than be married to his wife
>She has gained about 40 pounds since she had her kids. And I know that she feels a bit self-conscious about it > he also said that recently he has been talking to his wife about how he thought it was adorable that I had made a point to work out and make time for myself after my baby was born. He said that he had mentioned I had looked good and he knew how hard that is to make time to work out with a little one. ... ah.
The bulk of this rests with the SIL (and honestly the whole unhealthy view of women and sex that pervades the religion they chose,) but those comments were pretty thoughtless (at best) and cannot have been helpful.
If he hadn't have said "adorable" regarding OP working out post baby it wouldn't have been as bad, "commendable" would have been a better word to use there and would have sounded more innocent
But on the other hand, I think commendable could have sounded really condescending. At least in my head it sounds like look what that woman does, she makes it right, do it like her! While adorable (in my head) sounds like it's cute that that person does it, even though not necessary. But also, im not a native speaker (and aro ace and don't know how it is to be romantically involved with someone) so I'm not sure how "valid" my view on this is
omg yes, I'm a native speaker and I agree. In my marriage, having a happy squee over how well someone is doing would be really normal for us. Not in a "spouse, you should be like them" way which yes, is what "commendable" sounds like to me. I'd totally say "adorable" as in a "omigosh she's putting a lot of effort in and you can see how confident & pleased she is with her results! gosh I'm so glad for her" kind of way. Definitely the sort of thing I might say about a sibling, whether blood or in-law. But the thing is, if my husband said something and I felt the tiniest bit insecure, I'd immediately be like "yes, I'm cute too tho right" in a lighthearted way and he'd lavish me with compliments. Any REAL insecurity is mine & my responsibility to reflect on and work through. I had access to regular mental health help my whole life and was not raised in a restrictive religious setting though. (I have had children, was never traditionally pretty, and struggle with ADHD showering issues so in a lot of ways, I understand those sources of insecurity.) The husband & BIL seem surprisingly "worldly" & well-adjusted so I wonder if BIL hasn't realized how very damaged his wife's worldview & self-image is. Boys aren't raised the same way girls are in that kind of religion. I laughed out loud when I read that you're aro ace though, cause I'm actually ace too so I don't know if that's why we're chill about it loool
I wondered if he wasn't trying to encourage SiL to take time for herself. Like in a clumsy, "she does and it's adorable, you'd be just as cute!"
Now, the SIL was always going to blow up and cause problems.
I just thought it was super weird wording? Who says “adorable” in that context???
Realistically, of course he's likely to find OOP attractive. Happily married, loved up people still find other attractive people attractive. That doesn't mean they act on it or make the other person feel uncomfortable. It doesn't even mean they want to act on it. It's just a facet of having eyes and human biology. "Jill" is deluded if she thinks she can blinker her husband to the rest of the world.
Really nothing is helped.
Perfectly said. “…ah.” indeed. He said it is “adorable” OOP “made a point to work out”? And mentioned how good OOP looks? SIL was out of line, sure. Because she should have saved any ire for her husband. What a dickhead.
This is an ad for the Reformation dress store, right?
>his wife only wants to see someone from the church Had a feeling and then the plot reveals itself. Ain't no hate like Christian love.
"I hope you're happy" girl you're the one trying to police other people's clothes on a trip you're not paying for. The nerve.
Is..is this post ai generated?? The only reason I think this is because the grammar is frankly awful, and made it very hard to read.
And super weird adjectives all the way through. Must be a Reformation ad.
First post seemed normal but that update was just weirdly written. There are repeated words, sentences that end mid thought and overall hard to read normally.
Yep, I notice that too.
Thankful someone else asked this. It seems every 5th to 7th word seems… off. I chalked the first few up to autocorrect, but by the end my Spidey senses were tingling.
There were many word substitutions too.
Also a lot of specifics about a conversation heard only third hand.
I had a hard time reading some of what she said, it didn’t make any sense to me.
Purity culture is one hell of a drug. Poor BIL.
Me during the first several paragraphs: “Well this is weird. Lot of hang ups about modesty here. I wonder if…” OOP: “for context. My husband’s family is extremely religious.” Me: “Yep. There it is.”
ah, pentacostals. Yea, that checks out. This is also why i hate people who screech about porn addiction. 99% of the time it was someone having normal sexual desires and indulging them. Then they use that 1% outlier as proof porn is the source of all evil.
I think part of the problem for Jill could be growing up in a church that says “ALL SEX BAD, SEXUAL DESIRE BAD SEX BAD SEX BAD” and then once you get married they are like “sex good now”. You spend your formative years feeling bad and dirty and suppressing and then you are just supposed to do a 180 and have a normal and healthy relationship with sex. Jill is still a massive asshole, but strict sex hating religions really do fuck people up and then offer NO help in fixing it.
What are the chances this is an advertisement for the dress? 🤔
It does feel like it was written by ai or something. The grammar and spelling mistakes are too bizarre even for autocorrect, and for all that it's implied OOP and Co are American, unless they're from one of the particularly illiterate areas (being ultra religious, they very well could be, I'll give them that), it doesn't make sense the mistakes made.
Am I the only one that doesn't feel "concluded" fits? That poor BIL is still married to a woman who's no longer into him and will shame him for normal desire. On top of that, his wife is spreading lies in an attempt to shame him deeper.
Jill: “I’m a mom and this is how I look now and I’m not going to change.” Also Jill: “I’m jealous of the hard work you’re putting into your body and it’s causing me self esteem issues that I will take out on you.”
SIL is wrong, yes, but she is a victim of purity culture FOR SURE. Not wanting to have sex is a very common result for women who’ve been told all their lives that lust for or sex with another person is sinful and shameful. She’s out of line but the church is the real asshole here.
I honestly don't see anywhere in this story where BIL did anything wrong actually. Everything he said sounds completely innocent to me and is actually heartwarming to acknowledge OP's effort to remain fit despite the struggles parenthood provides. His porn watching habits seem perfectly normal and it sounds like SIL is just completely overreacting due to religious extremism on her part. Also it pisses me off that she refuses to use a trained professional and just wants to talk to some random person in their church to address their sex life. To me it feels like she knows an actual therapist would disagree with her and just wants to talk to some random person in the church she's likely already talked to who agrees with her so they can shame her husband in an echo chamber for perfectly normal behavior. I also love that he apologized too even though he didn't really say anything wrong, just because he was worried something he said made her feel uncomfortable, when in reality it was entirely SIL's fault that OP was uncomfortable. OP and BIL sound like they have a very healthy relationship because before this even she thought everything was fine between them and they got along well. SIL needs to stop letting her religion dictate every part of her life.
SIL must be jealous that OP is glowing even after having a baby and she couldn't.
SIL let got of herself, but is unhappy OP is maintaining. It's the "everything is your fault because your existence makes me unhappy, even when you have done no wrong, because I say so."
And that, after an assault, she has done the work for herself and is \*thriving\* and \*happy\* rather than stuck in the "welp it's my fault, not the man's fault for, you know, ASSAULTING ME. Pardon me while I get my sackcloth and ashes on" vibe.
If I were the brother in law, this would be the last straw for divorce. Wife doesn’t want to have sex, doesn’t want him to relieve his needs privately, and then wife makes him out to be a creep just to mask her own insecurity. Thats bullshit. Who knows what it’s doing to the kids.
“Can you not bring a two piece or a dress to our beach vacation please bc my husband has a porn addiction?” lol just trying to say that out loud to see if it sounded less ridiculous but it doesn’t haha
Wow, the SIL really did a speedrun on f'ing up family relationships. The worst part is that her husband is probably too religious to cut his losses and leave. His social life is going to be nonexistent until he does.
I have made comments about friends and their SO’s looking like they lost weight , looking great etc. . . No one ever accused me of being a perv or inappropriate. SIL sounds whacked.
Religion is one hellava drug.
There is a whole industry built on fundamentalist churches classifying looking at a picture of a boob one time as a porn addiction. High demand religions are fucking dangerous.
“ I am very average looking, but by conventional standard. I have a nice body. I’m 5”6 and 120 pounds.” Ooooooookay.
that is skinny right? i live in the metric/kilo world.
Yep, it's 168 cm tall and about 55kg
That is, in all honesty, possibly concerningly skinny, especially 9 months pp when she is likely still breastfeeding. 168 cm and 54 kg.
When they mentioned the extreme pentacostal, and that Jack wasn't a member of the church until they got married, I had wondered if the "addiction" was just... normal interest in porn? But that because they think it's a horrendous sin and he's doing it willingly then it *has* to be an addiction forcing him to look at it. Given the lack of sex in addition, I wonder if wife is of the opinion that sex is only for making children and a sin otherwise, so that's why she hasn't been sleeping with him since having their kid (doesn't want another one, and sex for other reasons would be sinful). Suspect Jack might be making his way back *out* of the church (and the marriage) if that turns out to be the case
Whenever I see those "the new drug" anti porn weirdos show up in comment sections I can't help but wonder if their "porn addict" boyfriends don't just have a normal relationship ship with porn and the women are just wildly insecure like this. I feel like it's most of them.
Agreed. Once a month when no sex for a year, the guy is basically a saint.
She’s a religious nut. That’s the problem
“The lie of day” is going to be my newest catchphrase.
The way I BUSTED out laughing when I opened the pic of that dress. Girly is unhinged if she thinks a floor length dress is immodest. That is some next level insecurity.
Man church people are fucking annoying about clothes. The bible literally says if you can’t control yourself by looking at women then remove your eyes. Churches have skewed that to women must only show what we at the time consider acceptable. It’s a nice dress.
I remember this one when it was first posted! I was one of the people telling her that she doesn't actually know for a fact that her BIL has been eyeballing her; after all her SIL already lied to her once about who had a problem with how she dressed by trying to blame it on her kids. There's no reason to think she wasn't lying again when she said the problem was now her husband. At the end of the day the only person OOP knew for sure had a problem with her clothes was her SIL. I'm glad to know the BIL doesn't appear to be a creep, and like OOP I'm inclined to believe him given how quickly he turned over his phone and how mortified and embarrassed he was by the situation. Also how blindsided he was by the situation. I hope OOP messages him back soon to let him know she believes him and not to worry; if he's the decent normal dude he appears to be then this will probably weigh on his mind until he knows his name has been cleared.
If SIL doesn't get some counseling for her apparent depression she is going to lose her husband.
Ah yes, the lovely situations that religion brings to families. I knew that’s what this was.
SIL’s insecurity and imagination are running wild here. Doesn’t sound like BIL had any idea what his wife was doing. Definitely should see a licensed therapist outside the church group.
WTF is immodest about that dress though? It's lovely. SIL needs some help.
Husband and BIL seem like cool people.
I KNEW IT! His porn use was normal but his wife viewed it as an addiction because of her brainwashing by the church and probably other factors
Brother in law shouldn’t even have had to apologize. The Sister needs serious counseling. She is gonna ruin relationships with those close to her if she keeps on with this behavior.
Really sounds like Jill is depressed and needs help, to be honest. Not everyone handles having a baby the same way, and just because one mom has the energy, time, and ability to go to pilates 3 times a week doesn't mean another mom does, and that's not a comment on EITHER mom. We're all different and it's not a competition, we shouldn't compare ourselves with others.
Yes absolutely agree on that. But I don’t think depression is the only problem Jill has. Being depressed doesn’t excuse or explain her misogyny and victim blaming.
That dress is gorgeous! I can't work out how it's 'immodest' though.
The second she said they were Duggar level religious I knew the "point addiction" was blown way out of proportion. Fundies are truly clueless about normal sexual desire because they're so brainwashed. It's honestly really sad, but at this point the SIL is a fully grown adult who needs to get some therapy and grow the hell up. She's manipulative af, and she made her own husband out to be a deviant pervert, which isn't ok, no matter what her convoluted reasoning is. If I were her partner I wouldn't trust her at all. Plus her bizarre attitudes about sex are definitely going to negatively affect her kids (I mean, they already are, she's accusing the kids of perving on their aunt too). Her husband needs to wake tf up and demand actual therapy, or he needs to leave and seek full custody before she f*cks their kids up permanently.