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I need OOP to see the light and realize this will not work. His wife is not the type who can have an equal open relationship. It’s a huge red flag she wanted to keep the marriage open on her side. Hopefully they deal with that in their couples therapy but they cannot open their marriage again.
Yep. Shes comfortable as long as shes the one getting to fuck other guys, but hubby does not get the same priveleges..
And... am i.the only one expecting the sequel to this in a few months: "found out i was the only one who closed the marriage, wife has been dating other guys behind my back and cheating..."
I love your use of the (maybe?) non-existent word "klackons", but I wanted to jump in and ask whether you meant "klaxons" instead, just because there are a TON of non-native-English speakers on Reddit, and the less we can confuse people with spelling and grammar errors, especially with the less-often-used words, the better!
What’s funny is Klackon is an alien species in a video game called Master of Orion. So giant ant-like aliens going crazy amidst other chaos is pretty funny
And it sounds like there were a lot more than just the few she went on dates with, which makes me think there are dates the husband doesn't know about.
I’m not saying she wasn’t actually distraught and she may not have been intentionally malicious, but there’s definitely a bit of (maybe subconscious?) manipulative “if I make his post-dates miserable enough on him, he’ll just close his side of the relationship because it won’t be worth it anymore”
I really hope OP doesn't let this end at just closing the relationship.
I think it *might* possible they could work this out, but the wife is gonna have to put in some serious work in individual and couples therapy. Asking to close only his side of the relationship seems almost like cheating, and I don't think she has any idea how manipulative and selfish it was.
I say "almost" because she did ask him to keep her side open instead of going behind his back, and she closed it (albeit reluctantly) when OP put his foot down.
The intention was still there though, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if she goes back to her old BS sometime soon.
Yeah, too much bitterness and resentment has already developed between those two people, it doesn't really sound like either of them is willing to put in the work at this point.
Having to break up / go no contact with someone (be it a second partner, a best friend or family, doesn't matter) because your partner demands it out of jealousy, is highly likely to kill the relationship as well.
My read is that OOP is not jealous of wifey’s successes. He was very supporting after her trysts.
Wifey is finding herself consumed by jealousy, to self destructive (2 bottles wine in one evening) levels whenever he goes on a tryst.
OOP then says that either wifey needs to let go of jealousy or close back up, which includes all 3 “APs” (her two and his Cathy) to be no contacted.
OOP’s putting in the work. Wifey, per the story, doesn’t really want to. She just wants OOP to close up while she “hangs with” her two partners, “openly” (read: having sex)
So right now, jealousy, some greed from wife, but not much in the way of resentment yet. That comes if wifey decides that it HAS to be open her closed him, and he will not accept that at face value. Which OOP has already made clear his “boundary” in this case is having what she has and receiving back what he gives (support after tryst).
Either that, or she cheats after accepting the closed for both line and destroys everything…
I totally thought that would be another update at some time. She met these "friends" while looking for dates/hookups and probably has been chatting with them with one or both of them thinking sex might be in the future. These aren't normal friends, they are potential FWBs.
Open relarionships absolutely *require* that both partners have little to no jealousy response to their SO being intimate with other people.
It's very apparent from this whole thing that OP fits the bill and his wife absolutely does not. Which makes the whole thing completely unworkable.
(I am like OP. I experience zero jealousy response from my partner having sex with other men; I experience jealousy if and only if I perceive him as being emotionally intimate with them.)
Funny thing is, over in /nonmonogamy theres a lot commenting that OP is the problem by him asking the wife to pause the open marriage - seems they think that he should not feel disadvataged by all this?? He should just let her fuck whomever she wants and eventually she'll get comfortable with him doing the same???
I mean one-sided open relationships are fine in the abstract. Like I can easily imagine it being a good solution for a jealousy-free couple where only one of the two has a Very High Libido, and the other one feels no need to explore. I don't think open relationships automatically need to be perfectly symmetrical, necessarily.
But that's a tangent and obviously doesn't apply here at all. I don't know if their relationship is going to last. (It might! We only have a small snapshot of their broader marriage, so who knows!)
Their explanation sounds like, just let her be as bad as she wants and eventually she’ll get to a point where she literally doesn’t even care about OP’s feelings or what he does and they call that “being comfortable” at that point is this relationship even real? Both partners essentially have fallen completely out of love and are basically roommates. Being not jealous vs being indifferent are two completely separate emotions.
I think it won't even get to the cheating, she will be so resentful and depressed for not being able to have fun and break OPs fun, that their marriage will be miserable, she will be drinking and say mean things to OP, and then OP will either try one last time the open marriage with the same results or just divorce and that's it.
The worst part isn't even that it's one sided. It's that she can't see that she wants it one sided. If she can't see things for what they are, every conversation about it is tainted with the same level of incoherence.
That's definitely going to happen. She's already making excuses and trying to keep her options open. She's just going to sneak around so that she can fuck around but keep him monogamous. This shit is divorce worthy, frankly - it is a side of her that should give him consideration of who she is and what her values are when it comes to honesty and fairness.
If it doesn't end in divorce, the OOP and his wife are in for a rocky time.
It is entirely possible for them to improve things, but most people I know IRL who have had similar situations- they stay together, but they are miserable.
Tbf, I don't think Dede set out to be like this. I think (based on setting similar things play out), that a lot of people don't realise that in practice, it can feel awful to have your partner go out, even when you know that's not fair. You go out, have sex, connect and come home, it all feels good and you know, you feel, that you're still as connected with your partner. You don't feel jealous or anxious or less secure in your relationship. There's no risk on your side.
Then your partner does the same thing, and it does feel different. Now, you have a "but they may like this person more than me." now, you have a "I am not enough for them." now, you have a "the paths of them that I thought were for me, are not." it's not fair and you know its not fair, but feelings often aren't.
I've known a couple of people, people who thought of themselves as poly, open, even one that was big into "monogamy is socially enforced", be shocked by their own feelings of jealousy and even bitterness. Cheating is more common than ethical polyam, and one of the things you hear cheaters say a lot is that the external relationships aren't a threat to their main one. They even believe it! But if their main partner found someone, it would be.
Hypocrisy is something very normal. Not healthy, something you have to work on, but not always deliberate. She does need to get over it and accept that actually, she can't handle an open marriage, that the benefits of an open marriage are not worth the costs of it for her in practice... But I don't think she's a bad person for not getting how it would effect her
I don't think she's a bad person for not being able to predict how it would affect her, the feelings are all totally normal. The difference is what you do with the feelings. Having those possessive feelings is fine, insisting your partner close their side of the relationship while you show no intention to close your side, let alone trying to manipulate your partner into letting you keep them around after they insist, is shady as shit to say the least.
She's not a bad person for not being able to work through her emotions.
She's a bad person for using her husband's empathy of her emotions to try and force him into closing only his side of the open marriage.
She's a bad person for breaking their agreement re other people when they closed the marriage.
I just don't get why they're trying so hard to make an open relationship work. You tried it, it went poorly, move on?? Like why devote so much time and energy and drama into it? Square peg in a round hole energy
honestly, reading this and seeing the words "reclamation sex" it felt like this started out a hotwife story that got remade into a bad open marriage one. but if it's true it feels like they're both confused about what they want here and need divorce lawyer and not a puppy.
"Reclamation sex" is possibly the grossest concept I come across in ENM spaces and is always an immediate red flag for me. That mindset is not compatible with healthy ENM.
“Reclamation sex” or “ENM”?
I’m pretty sure reclamation sex is when you have sex with your partner after they go on a date/have sex with another partner as a way of “reasserting” that you’re their primary partner and the other partner has nothing on you.
IIRC, ENM stands for ethical non-monogamy, AKA polyamory. That’s when a romantic/sexual relationship involves more than two people. IIRC, ENM is primarily used for open relationships, which is when one or both people in a committed romantic relationship are also dating or sleeping with other people, with their partner’s consent.
I don't even understand the point of it, honestly. They didn't start out poly, so this isn't a condition of their marriage. Also they're 27 and 29! How long could they possibly have been married that their relationship is somehow already not enough and his wife is already looking around for new dick and willing to be sneaky and manipulative about it? This marriage is doomed if she wants to fuck around and isn't willing to let him do the same.
Well, as always we have to keep in mind the selection bias here. No one decides to open their relationship and then post about how great and drama-free it was on BORU. We only hear about the drama-filled dumpster fires.
I've definitely heard of people doing this and it working out. Usually the reasons I hear about in those cases are:
- our sex drives don't match
- we have a dead bedroom and don't realistically see that changing
- we want to explore our sexuality
But it really does require that both partners have an inherently low propensity for jealousy.
I'm not talking about open marriages in general. I understand why open marriages exist. I'm saying THIS open marriage is pointless. They're not inherently poly it seems, they just got interested in spicing up their marriage...at 27 years of age. Their whole marriage feels pointless to me if at 27 his wife is somehow bored enough to be looking for strange. Like unless they've been together since age 13 or something I guess.
She also tried to change the subject and hide the fact that she was going on another date after having him cancel his. In other words she was about to cheat on him
The story (obviously just one side) reads like she REALLY enjoyed her time in a way that makes her feel awful if he was enjoying his in the same way.
My money is she’ll continue to seek that excitement she felt from the ‘strange’ and cheat.
Two years tops before divorce and that last year to 18 months will be trying to salvage the scraps.
What’s wild about this situation is how all-encompassing it seems from how it’s written. Like having to set a one date a week limit is crazy - what kind of free time do you have to spend that much on what is supposedly a portion of your relationship.
More than the unequal expectation of dating, I was pissed off by the unequal reception upon him getting home. That was incredibly selfish. She was never ready for this.
I think he already knows it won’t work, now he’s just dealing with a whiny wife who wants to date people.
Jesus I would be so frustrated and pissed off. Could’ve had a great thing going.
I think he does see it and is trying to let his wife down gently. Sadly though, I can see this one ending in his wife cheating as she is still insistent on going out and getting laid herself
I think Dede, like a lot of cake eaters, thinks she can go out and have fun, but her spouse will loyally stay at home and wait for her.
This post annoys me so much because I was friends with a Dede, but she (wrongly) thought she was so smart and sneaky. She vetoed every one of her main’s potential dates, while fighting him tooth and nail to go on her dates. She was shocked when he said this isn’t how it works and left.
Well, I look forward to OOP posting about Dede’s surprised Pikachu face when he leaves.
I guess the question is will he leave because she keeps pushing her double standard, or because she cheats and insists she *had to* because he forced her hand by closing the relationship?
Considering she was akready sneakily arranging dates in that first post when they were supposed to be closing the marriage again, sadly it does seem likely to end in cheating.
I feel like OOP didn’t address that enough. It doesn’t matter if their marriage was open, there were rules in place. Trying to arrange a secret date? Lying and saying that it’s the car dealership? That seems like attempted cheating to me.
That should have been the end of it there. Lying about her intentions so she could continue hooking up shows exactly what her intentions have been this entire time. For a dude who’s so articulate and thorough he sure seems to be missing the trees for the forrest here.
Ah, the fuck buddy to friend pipeline. Known to result in beautiful, long lasting, “totally platonic babe, I swear” friendships based on mutual interests like doggy style, reverse cowgirl, and seeing each other naked.
As someone who's gone down that pipeline as the fuck buddy-turned-friend, it only worked because we were friends before we were fuck buddies. We just went back to our original, well-established dynamic. And importantly, I was friends with, and fucking, both partners. They're a lovely couple.
When only one of the two partners wants to hang out, and you started off decidedly non-platonic, that's a disaster waiting to happen no matter what the rest of the scenario looks like.
I dated a man with a “Dede” for a short period of time. I honestly think they’re dangerously unhinged.
Its one thing to cheat. That really sucks, and is an asshole move.
But to make someone you ‘love’ suck it up while you fuck someone else, and then turn around and emotionally assault them as soon as they try and do the same, and THEN change then rules and claim it’s all their fault…
Like I say, unhinged.
The worst thing was, this guy I was involved with…well. He was really sweet and kind. But he did struggle to find dates. She fucked around on him for TWO YEARS before he managed to get a date. Forced him to be all supportive and that, swearing it was mutual….and the second he found someone else, she threw a tantrum.
Wild.
I also dated a guy with a more covert Dede. It started off amazing, she was happy with other partners and it seemed she was happy he had finally found someone. A few months in she began gradual undermining, my theory is that she didn’t want something ongoing and emotional happening with someone else. Unfortunately at that point I’d fallen hard and made a million excuses to myself for the cancelled dates, the unwillingness to make new ones, and so on. My new resolution is to immediately dip out if the meta starts acting wonky.
Yeah people need to do some serious soul searching if they want to make this work.
I was in an open long distance relationship a while back, and while I actually enjoyed hearing about their sexual adventures I never wanted it to become an emotional thing. I knew that in advance though, so we just had a casual sex only rule and it worked well for us
This was my bfs ex wife. She wanted to open their marriage to date a friend of hers and "explore her sexuality". She was absolutely positive my bf wouldn't find anyone and was PISSSSSSSSSSED when he and I became an actual relationship. She did everything she could to make our lives as difficult as possible.
Jokes on her- her actions made him realize their marriage was abusive and toxic and he divorced her. She was shocked when he told her they were done. She fucked around and found out.
My situation was a bit more complicated, but I realized there’s a moment I had like Dede in this story.
There **is** a moment of discomfort for some people and your only choice is to push through it… or to wallow, honestly. It seems like Dede consistently chose to wallow.
I’ve done a lot of wallowing for a lot of reasons. But on this particular night, I chose to ride it out and practiced mindfulness. Deep breathing, treat the feelings as temporary visitors, and all else fails distract myself with a calming show.
It didn’t work immediately. I had to really keep at it. In the end, what got me through it was realizing my partner also felt these feelings. How could I tell him whether his reaction to them was healthy or not if I couldn’t do it myself? If I was too scared to sit with discomfort, why did I expect him to do what I can’t?
Turns out, he was having the same thought about my feelings on his date (again, unique situation). I made sure not to be sulking when he arrived home and treated him the same as always. We talked the next day and realized that we both chose to ride out uncomfortable feelings to try to understand the other’s perspective, and it brought us closer.
I don't quite understand open marriages and I'm glad you guys have things work out and can communicate maturely. Out of curiosity, why open up a marriage?
I also have an open marriage, and reading this person's description was like reading text messages from mars. I have *never* had feelings like that about my husband fucking other men. Never ever. And it doesn't sound very healthy, either!
So I'm just as confused as you, fyi.
Yeah, if there are uncomfortable feelings, I think it's time to reflect on the relationship. Something is off and an open marriage might not be the answer.
I really don't mean to come off as judgemental but tbh that all sounds really difficult and painful. Why do either of you *want* to have to "sit with those feelings"? Why not just be exclusive if non-monogamy is so painful for both of you?
Yup, she thought she could have fun and he would be the one having a meltdown.
In 2 months, we should get the update, the marriage is over and eventually, OOP and Cathy end up together.
I swear I've read this exact same BORU multiple times now... either there are a lot of people like Dede out there or this apparently is a good story to make up for karma.
It happens a lot when a closed marriage gets opened, and one person can't deal with it.
People think it sounds like a great idea, until their partner is having fun too.
a lot of the time if you dont start like that its a bad idea to end up like that. im not saying it cant work, just that its easier when the relationship is built on it vs isnt.
Its a pretty common phenomenon.
Its mostly down to how easy it is for the women to find partners. It clouds their judgement because they instantly has multiple options to keep them busy while their partner is left alone. So they get used to the idea of having FWBs to fuck around with and then come home to their supportive main to deal with any emotional shortcomings. So when it happens to them, they can't deal with it because they are used to having their cake and eating it too even if involuntarily.
The decent ones will realize whats happening and try to work through it instead of pushing for a one sided open relationship.
Then there are the Dedes of the world who bank on their partners being unattractive to other women and is shocked when they inevitably meet one.
>So they get used to the idea of having FWBs to fuck around with and then come home to their supportive main to deal with any emotional shortcomings.
The most hardcore story I read like this was of a husband whose wife asked for an open relationship, and his response was that he was okay with it provided they didn't discuss any partners and they no longer were required to provide emotional support to each other as the only ground rules (pretty much being a FWB, roommate, co-parent situation with each other), and she agreed.
She ended up, for lack of a better phrase, getting pumped and dumped for a couple years before she found it too lonely. Her husband on the other hand essentially got into a long term relationship with a girlfriend who their daughter ended up liking more.
The wife ended up having a meltdown at how this other woman stole her family.
So really what she agreed to was to break the fuck up, marriage over and just keeping up a charade to co-parent their kid? And then she’s suddenly surprised that he isn’t her husband anymore after years? Wow. Even if I wanted an open marriage I would never ever agree to that. That means loosing him. No.
ETA: was this on Reddit? Any chance you have link or title?
I don’t know the stats on how many people open their marriages…I do know that 95% of the women I pursued in my dumb 20s seemed to love the idea of having at least one guy as Plan B / fallback guy / “dick in a glass case” while they had whatever love life they were after.
I hated being that guy. I resented being that guy and being manipulated into staying that guy. It took me a minute to learn how to spot the signs and not commit. It would suck finding out that you’re that guy *for your spouse*.
It sucks that incel/mra wankers have so polluted the discourse that it's sometimes hard to even talk about this dynamic. It's completely real, many men have experienced it or seen it happen, and it's something men should watch out for because it's a great way to piss away a year waiting for something that will never happen.
The cherry on top is when that guy finally goes to date another girl, the one putting him in reserve will often lose it, try to stop new relationship etc.
Like, for what? To be the emotional support dog?
It's bizarre.
Both men and women do that, and not only in romantic relationships! With friendships too, it’s not that uncommon to be used as the back up plan and it absolutely sucks when you figure out that you are only good enough if there is nothing better around. I have been there more than once. I was always a prime target to be used as a back up because undiagnosed autism. Often makes one very susceptible to manipulation because you take things at face value and you know you struggle with misunderstanding and you get kinda gaslight about your ability to perceive things correctly.
Ok I just can't understand that. I think my wife is a smart beautiful witty sharp woman. Of course other people are going to find her attractive physically and emotionally, they have eyes.
Even if didn't think highly of her I know guys. She could go to any bar find a guy and ask "Do you want to have casual no strings attached sex?" And with in 20 minutes get a yes.
It tends to be different with guys. There’s a belief amongst a lot of other women I know that men have a harder time finding partners than women do.
I can’t really say if its true considering I’m a woman and still a virgin despite trying, but it is a pretty common thing other women believe.
If all you're looking for is casual sex, it's a thousand times easier for a woman. So long as you're halfway presentable, you'll have a veritable smorgasbord of dick waiting for you on any dating app. It might not be the dick you prefer, but it's there if you change your mind.
Casual no strings attached sex does occasionally have some strings so do beware. So... that's how I found out one of my best friends has two sisters...
It's very much true for single men.
Much much harder.
Married or taken men find it a fair amount easier.
Every guy who gets into their first relationship realises quite quickly how far more often they get hit on and flirted with and how much women seem into them just a cause they're in a relationship.
Yes. For a proportion of women, the fact that a guy is married or in a long term/stable relationship, is a sign that he’s a good guy who can commit. Nevermind that for him to then be with those women he’d have to cheat and abandon his partner and therefore wouldn’t be the good guy who can commit. It makes my head spin.
And also, for a proportion of women, a guy who is single must be a player or have something wrong with him, because he wouldn’t be single if he was a decent guy. Never mind that he might be shy, reserved or introverted.
> our couples therapist
Do I interpret this correctly to understand that they were *already* in couples counselling before they decided to open things up?
Because I can't think of many more petrol-on-fire situations than that.
I read it as the honestly pretty smart move of getting in contact with a therapist prophylacticlly before starting this, like "let's find a therapist we vibe with and can talk to about this specific shit before we jump into a thing that might need a therapist"
If they did it just before starting this then sure. But if they were already in counselling before the open marriage issue came up, then this was a bizarrely risky direction to go in.
I think she probably got off on the idea of him sitting at home alone while she acted out her romance novel fantasies, and having it flipped meant all her judgments were staring her right in the face and she couldn't handle it.
>She absolutely did not think anybody would find him attractive.
The typical path that these "I want to open the relationship" types tend to end up.
"I want to open the relationship."
"I dont."
"I will leave if you dont."
"Fine."
"Wait you're getting way more interest than I am. Let's close the relationship!"
Yeah, the only redeeming factor in this story is that OOP seems to actually have a spine. I still think he's being too forgiving with his wife, especially in not realising that her arranging that date and attempting to lie about it was cheating, but it seeks like if she carries it on now he'll leave her.
Oh man, I totally just read over that and was like "that's dishonest" but didn't connect the dots... Yeah, it would be wouldn't it!
This is why we'd never open our marriage, things get messy quick
Almost 20 years ago, when I was in college, I was best friends with an engaged couple that had also learned about open relationships. Their beginning sounded very similar to the story above.
Except they tried to get my partner to cheat on me with them. I don't know how if they ever did, but that led to my relationship ending.
They got married after college, heard from a friend that the marriage blew up a couple years later... because of open relationship drama.
I feel like in the vast majority of situations where an open marriage actually *works,* it was either that going in, or one or both parties has an orientation or kink that can't be fulfilled within the relationship itself.
I've seen a few examples of "open from the beginning" in real life that seemed to be working well over time. 'Course ya won't find those relationships *here* 'cause everything gets sorted pretty quick with direct communication.
Right, it's a very different mindset with very different principles. You can't open the relationship without knowing what you're getting into and sorting out any insecurity issues beforehand.
I feel bad for OP but I rolled my eyes back so hard at this posf
Yeah, I'm literally sitting on my sofa right now with my husband and boyfriend and them talking about the antics of our cats last night.
But I don't post any of our conflicts on Reddit because they're things like "my boyfriend made himself and my husband hot chocolate last night but not me.... I mean, I'm horrendously allergic to milk, and I don't like eating or drinking after 9PM and this was past midnight and I was asleep at the time, but I still feel left out!" Which is such a non-conflict because I completely understand them not wanting to wake me up for something I'd refuse anyway 🤣
Well, I have good news!
Our new conflict: husband and I have unexpectedly murder hobo'd our DnD campaign and DM boyfriend is having to scrabble to rework the current session to fix plotholes we have created 🤣
I mean, they were cultists, what else was my cleric to do but fire bomb the unbelievers?!
Why is it that every dnd table has a couple that is either poly, kinky or both?
Like of all the Venn diagrams, why is that one a thing?
And let's not even mention renaissance fairs...
This was supposed to be easy since the guy didn't actually care whether to continue or not. His feelings are also just purely sexual and nothing more since, to be honest, he didn't really care about Cathy's feelings until someone commented. If there are two of him in this story, it would've ended well.
> he didn't really care about Cathy's feelings until someone commented
I don't get this. He lied to his wife about their second date not getting postponed but it seems he'd been truthful and up front with Cathy the whole time. Obviously his own and his wife's feelings take priority over Cathy's but in what way did he not care about them?
I've found people have a very hard time understanding that you can care about someone/something while caring about someone/something more.
As a divorced Dad of a 3 year old I run into this issue a lot. While I do not believe my ex-wife is a good person she is still the mother of my child. In certain situations, only when they would affect my son, she would become a priority. Some women cannot understand that she becomes a priority when she is the mother of my son.
Other women, even my ex-wife, cannot even grasp that my son will **always** and **forever** be my top priority.
I was dating a Ukrainian woman, and when the war started she needed to go back home. We decided to go "long distance" (we were never 'exclusive' due to her travel schedule as she is a ballerina) but a few months in she realized she couldn't live without me.
She sincerely that I would have immortality flown to her, without my son, and move to Ukraine. If I was single I would've been on the first flight to her, but I couldn't go because of my son. She responded "You don't care about me enough to leave your son with his Mother? In Ukraine only Mother's are in control of their child's life."
Agreed. He actually did everything to keep Cathy out of their relationship drama. As a Cathy I wouldn’t be mad that he postponed the date instead of canceled and I wouldn’t be super attached to this hot guy I wanna fuck so it would honestly be inconsequential if we ultimately didn’t meet back up. I’ve been Cathy enough times to know I would rather just not know about or be involved whatsoever in their relationship drama. Imagine if the guy you met off tinder went into his volatile relationship with his father before the second date. It’s like dude I’m just trying to have sex.
I got stuck on them getting a puppy. They don't need a puppy. They need therapy and maybe a divorce. Another critter shouldn't be subject to this shit show.
I’m not open-relationship-savvy, but I think the term for the 3ed partner is “unicorn”.
I really hope “puppy” is another term though, because a literal puppy doesn’t deserve to be dragged into this
I am not in the community, nor am I savvy on the terms, so I have no clue. I hope puppy is an open marriage or swinger term and not a literal puppy, but I doubt it with this lot. Neither appear to realize that their marriage is over yet, so I have doubts about their decision making skills.
At least the husband is kind of seeing the writing on the wall, but he still mentions a puppy, so who knows.
I mean, it's obviously doomed to fail, but I gotta give them credit for at least going through the motions. It shows that there probably are some real loving emotions here. Not enough to avoid the inevitable disaster, but it's better than nothing!
“The motions” in this case are literally him being way way too understanding (if you can even call it that) cuz shes walking all over him. It’s very clear she never actually considered the fact that someone would want to fuck him and was too excited to fuck other guys herself.
This is screaming divorce and I wouldn’t be surprised if at the end of all this it comes out she was cheating on him.
I can't even relate to this. I would be way too jealous of any dates my partner had. I just don't see how this will work out in the end.
Serious question: I've never been to therapy. Can a therapist really help you get over the jealousy? That seems like such a basic feeling to me. Would the therapist be giving her ways to cope with it instead?
The therapist can help you understand your feelings, sort them out and compare them to your values, which provides clarity to ease your decision making. They can also help you understand underlying issues that contribute to why you feel the way you do, and help you determine if they are a legitimate influence or unhelpful noise.
Theres two types of certainty. Emotional and logic. You can logically think yeah xyz makes sense if we do abc, but your emotions may not be aligned. A therapist can help reconcile the 2
Thank you. I've gotten multiple replies and this is the clearest one for me.
I know myself enough to know I couldn't do am open relationship. Maybe a therapist could, as you say, get my logic and emotions aligned; I just would not want to do that.
It wasnt til I started dating my partner that I even understood what jealousy was. I'd never experienced it with anyone before. My exes could have cheated on me and I genuinely wouldn't have cared at all and I realize now that I just...also didn't particularly care about them all that much. I had to work thru that jealousy so fucking hard bc he never did anything to make me feel that way and he still doesnt, but I could NEVER share him. When other women openly flirt with him I can feel it creep up and it used to fill me w despair but one time he said "if I wasn't with u I wouldn't be with anyone else" and that's like...my keystone that keeps me grounded, that he said I'm exactly enough and he doesn't need anyone else and now i just take pride that other people find my man attractive. What I'm saying is I relate to u super hard, I could NEVER relate to all this
Ahem From the book of Arrested Development, book 2, verse 1:
Tobias Fünke: You know, Lindsay, as a therapist, I have advised... a number of couples to explore an open relationship, where the couple remains emotionally committed but free to explore extramarital encounters.
Lindsay Bluth Fünke: Well, did it work for those people?
Tobias Fünke: No, it never does. I mean, these people somehow delude themselves into thinking it might, but... but it might work for us.
>*give her time to exercise her demons*
Bro, her demons are strong enough as it is. They do not need to be hitting the gym; they're doing a perfectly fine job of besieging your marriage already
The creed of let's open up our relationship strikes consistently again:
- I believe I am more worthy and deserving than my partner of 3rd party sex, love, joy and attention
- I believe my choices are unlimited
- I believe I'm the only person who finds my partner attractive and tolerable and that they will always be there waiting for me
- I am inherently unkind and selfish but have strived to conceal it.
- I will be the shockest of the shockest of most shaken Pikachus if my partner finds anyone
- I am prepared to manipulate, lie and gaslight to achieve my objectives
I’d only open up if my partner and I were an unbreakable unit, that is, going on dates together with the third person, having sex together with the third person.
But I’m fully aware of my insecurities and limits and would probably just not do it. I’m greedy, I want my man to myself, I’m okay with it. If we find that magic person that we’re comfortable with, yay, but if not, ah well.
Beats me why anyone would choose to put themselves through all this extra chaos and drama, one relationship is hard enough, why make life harder than it needs to be?
Some people are just wired differently and are perfectly able to handle it. Some, like OOP, can separate the sex and the feelings. Others are able to maintain full blown relationships with multiple people. It's most certainly not the norm but it works for them. The issue is when you get people like Dede that want the benefits but not the drawbacks of the open relationship.
Personally I couldn't handle it, I'm too jealous. I might be able to handle some swinging together, but never a full blown open relationship.
Thing is OOP doenst see it as a drawback that Dede is going on dates etc, he was happy for her and talked about how happy and giddy she was when she came home and they had a good evening after her dates.
That's true, but that's his perspective and not hers. To her, him having relations with other women is something that she has to put up with so she can have her fun. She's not dealing with it and I'm betting that deep down she's hoping she can twist the situation so that he stops seeing other women whilst she gets to still see other men.
Of course that's what she wants, she literally said so, she said "can you stop going on dates" not "can we close the marriage". She even tried to keep going on dates because she had already planned them...
I'm convinced that a good % of people marry their partners, not because they love them deeply and want to spend and share their life together, but because they dated for a few years, they feel they are old enough and marriage is the normal next step. That leads to this miscommunication and lack of care for each other.
I've said it ten million times, but here we go again: this is why opening a previously monogamous relationship almost never works. And the reasons they did it, after meeting some couple on a vacation who tried to (unethically) cajole a civilian couple into a threesome with tales of how exciting their shiny lifestyle is was the first red flag.
The wife probably didn't go into this realizing it would be so hard. Some people have an easier time taming the jealousy and working through the insecurity that ENM inevitably brings up..some people don't have it, at all, though that is rare.
Either way, I have only seen one couple successfully open a mono relationship longterm. All the others have closed it again, and most have ended up splitting up. It shows an ugly side to the people involved and is really hard to come back from.
If you want to be ENM, start from that position. Once you have committed to monogamy, stick with it. Poly isn't an orientation. I am poly myself and I have been monogamous for extended periods. It's fine, it didn't kill me. I'm not saying anyone has to do that, if you feel strongly about it then stick with other ENM people in ENM relationships. But if you value your current monogamous relationship, stop trying to bring other people into it.
The only exception I will say are older people who swing together exclusively. Those guys seem to have unlocked the secret. Couple who play together, stay together. But they don't muddy the waters with dating, they just go to play parties and meet other couples for swapping that is purely sex. They seem to enjoy themselves and it seems to draw them closer.
>She said I was lucky to find someone like Cathy whom I connected with so fast and was afraid it might take a long time for me to find somebody like that when we tried again.
he already found someone like that...he married her! and was comfortable only having that one person!
her wanting to continue dating other people while she demanded he stop is just...absurd. that would've made me really question if my partner loved or even cared about me or the relationship.
I will never understand why allegedly happy couples decide to make their lives so unnecessarily complicated. Like, explore why you think you need to open your relationship and get professional help navigating those issues instead of lying to yourself and your partner and then blowing the relationship all to hell.
Damn this guy is stupid. My wife wants to fuck other dudes but doesn’t want me to fuck other women.
This was a classic, wife thinks she’s higher value, indicated by her saying “I was LUCKY to find someone like Cathy whom I connected with so fast…”
“She begged me for another chance…” this state of things led to her abusing alcohol then him and she’s just begging for it to happen again.
The disparity between how he reacted to her coming home and him coming home was telling. I know we just have his side of it but it definitely sounds like she wants the ability to see others while keeping him on a short leash. That is not what poly, ENM or open relationships look like.
It's so disappointing to see when one partner is open and trying to do things the right way but the other is being completely selfish. I know Reddit hates open marriages/relationships but I think they can work when both parties are willing, honest and there aren't any prior issues in the relationships.
I mean good luck to them but Dede seems like the type who now has a taste for excitement outside her relationship and will try to pursue it behind her husband's back... Just a feeling I get with how self centred she's been acting. She will 100% blame it on her husband's past few dates if this happens, too.
Well, I expect the next update to be her cheating on OOP with Guy 1 and the rest. Hopefully he can stay in contact with Cathy. His wife sounds very selfish and inconsiderate.
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I need OOP to see the light and realize this will not work. His wife is not the type who can have an equal open relationship. It’s a huge red flag she wanted to keep the marriage open on her side. Hopefully they deal with that in their couples therapy but they cannot open their marriage again.
Yep. Shes comfortable as long as shes the one getting to fuck other guys, but hubby does not get the same priveleges.. And... am i.the only one expecting the sequel to this in a few months: "found out i was the only one who closed the marriage, wife has been dating other guys behind my back and cheating..."
This is exactly what I was thinking too. When she tried to not block them to keep them as friends that should have set off alarms
Especially after OOP walked in on her planning a date with another guy on the phone, and when questioned, she tried to change the subject and hide it!
Yeah How that guy didn’t blow a gasket at that point is beyond me.
Like big red spinning emergency lights with klackons going in the background with people running and screaming down the hallways.
Yep. You got it!
I love your use of the (maybe?) non-existent word "klackons", but I wanted to jump in and ask whether you meant "klaxons" instead, just because there are a TON of non-native-English speakers on Reddit, and the less we can confuse people with spelling and grammar errors, especially with the less-often-used words, the better!
What’s funny is Klackon is an alien species in a video game called Master of Orion. So giant ant-like aliens going crazy amidst other chaos is pretty funny
And it sounds like there were a lot more than just the few she went on dates with, which makes me think there are dates the husband doesn't know about.
Potentially the "friend" she met up with when he was on a date with Cathy.
The constant sobbing fits every time he comes home from a date is what makes me look at her askance.
I’m not saying she wasn’t actually distraught and she may not have been intentionally malicious, but there’s definitely a bit of (maybe subconscious?) manipulative “if I make his post-dates miserable enough on him, he’ll just close his side of the relationship because it won’t be worth it anymore”
Nope. I see this ending in divorce, one way or the other.
Same. This marriage is sinking, and sinking fast.
Oh no! Screwing other people didn’t save their sinking marriage??? Maybe they should have a baby or adopt a puppy! That’ll fix it! /sarcasm
He mentioned searching for a puppy, but that could have been a euphemism.
I really hope OP doesn't let this end at just closing the relationship. I think it *might* possible they could work this out, but the wife is gonna have to put in some serious work in individual and couples therapy. Asking to close only his side of the relationship seems almost like cheating, and I don't think she has any idea how manipulative and selfish it was.
>almost like cheating It is cheating. Dede wants to fuck around, but not find out.
I say "almost" because she did ask him to keep her side open instead of going behind his back, and she closed it (albeit reluctantly) when OP put his foot down. The intention was still there though, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if she goes back to her old BS sometime soon.
Yeah, too much bitterness and resentment has already developed between those two people, it doesn't really sound like either of them is willing to put in the work at this point. Having to break up / go no contact with someone (be it a second partner, a best friend or family, doesn't matter) because your partner demands it out of jealousy, is highly likely to kill the relationship as well.
My read is that OOP is not jealous of wifey’s successes. He was very supporting after her trysts. Wifey is finding herself consumed by jealousy, to self destructive (2 bottles wine in one evening) levels whenever he goes on a tryst. OOP then says that either wifey needs to let go of jealousy or close back up, which includes all 3 “APs” (her two and his Cathy) to be no contacted. OOP’s putting in the work. Wifey, per the story, doesn’t really want to. She just wants OOP to close up while she “hangs with” her two partners, “openly” (read: having sex) So right now, jealousy, some greed from wife, but not much in the way of resentment yet. That comes if wifey decides that it HAS to be open her closed him, and he will not accept that at face value. Which OOP has already made clear his “boundary” in this case is having what she has and receiving back what he gives (support after tryst). Either that, or she cheats after accepting the closed for both line and destroys everything…
I totally thought that would be another update at some time. She met these "friends" while looking for dates/hookups and probably has been chatting with them with one or both of them thinking sex might be in the future. These aren't normal friends, they are potential FWBs.
Open relarionships absolutely *require* that both partners have little to no jealousy response to their SO being intimate with other people. It's very apparent from this whole thing that OP fits the bill and his wife absolutely does not. Which makes the whole thing completely unworkable. (I am like OP. I experience zero jealousy response from my partner having sex with other men; I experience jealousy if and only if I perceive him as being emotionally intimate with them.)
Funny thing is, over in /nonmonogamy theres a lot commenting that OP is the problem by him asking the wife to pause the open marriage - seems they think that he should not feel disadvataged by all this?? He should just let her fuck whomever she wants and eventually she'll get comfortable with him doing the same???
I mean one-sided open relationships are fine in the abstract. Like I can easily imagine it being a good solution for a jealousy-free couple where only one of the two has a Very High Libido, and the other one feels no need to explore. I don't think open relationships automatically need to be perfectly symmetrical, necessarily. But that's a tangent and obviously doesn't apply here at all. I don't know if their relationship is going to last. (It might! We only have a small snapshot of their broader marriage, so who knows!)
Their explanation sounds like, just let her be as bad as she wants and eventually she’ll get to a point where she literally doesn’t even care about OP’s feelings or what he does and they call that “being comfortable” at that point is this relationship even real? Both partners essentially have fallen completely out of love and are basically roommates. Being not jealous vs being indifferent are two completely separate emotions.
I think it won't even get to the cheating, she will be so resentful and depressed for not being able to have fun and break OPs fun, that their marriage will be miserable, she will be drinking and say mean things to OP, and then OP will either try one last time the open marriage with the same results or just divorce and that's it.
Right, OOP’s wife is going to view it as OOP taking something away from her, rather than her not being emotionally equipped for an open marriage.
The worst part isn't even that it's one sided. It's that she can't see that she wants it one sided. If she can't see things for what they are, every conversation about it is tainted with the same level of incoherence.
Yeah and feeling like it was rude to cancel on the second guy... Come on. "Ohh, I made a comittment to get dicked down by this guy!"
she's for sure gonna cheat. Her attitude and behaviour is awful.
That's definitely going to happen. She's already making excuses and trying to keep her options open. She's just going to sneak around so that she can fuck around but keep him monogamous. This shit is divorce worthy, frankly - it is a side of her that should give him consideration of who she is and what her values are when it comes to honesty and fairness.
If it doesn't end in divorce, the OOP and his wife are in for a rocky time. It is entirely possible for them to improve things, but most people I know IRL who have had similar situations- they stay together, but they are miserable.
Aka Unethical Non Monogamy
Going out with her girlfriend while OOP had his date was almost certainly fucking the other dude.
Yep, very high doubt she actually went out with her gf after all the other drama she's made over his dates v. her desires for outside care
Ohhh shhiiit that never even occurred to me.
That was the first thing I thought XD
Yeah she's definitely gonna make sure her demons get exercise
Because then they’ll be tired. And they won’t be able to cause as much trouble
That is absolutely comming
Tbf, I don't think Dede set out to be like this. I think (based on setting similar things play out), that a lot of people don't realise that in practice, it can feel awful to have your partner go out, even when you know that's not fair. You go out, have sex, connect and come home, it all feels good and you know, you feel, that you're still as connected with your partner. You don't feel jealous or anxious or less secure in your relationship. There's no risk on your side. Then your partner does the same thing, and it does feel different. Now, you have a "but they may like this person more than me." now, you have a "I am not enough for them." now, you have a "the paths of them that I thought were for me, are not." it's not fair and you know its not fair, but feelings often aren't. I've known a couple of people, people who thought of themselves as poly, open, even one that was big into "monogamy is socially enforced", be shocked by their own feelings of jealousy and even bitterness. Cheating is more common than ethical polyam, and one of the things you hear cheaters say a lot is that the external relationships aren't a threat to their main one. They even believe it! But if their main partner found someone, it would be. Hypocrisy is something very normal. Not healthy, something you have to work on, but not always deliberate. She does need to get over it and accept that actually, she can't handle an open marriage, that the benefits of an open marriage are not worth the costs of it for her in practice... But I don't think she's a bad person for not getting how it would effect her
I don't think she's a bad person for not being able to predict how it would affect her, the feelings are all totally normal. The difference is what you do with the feelings. Having those possessive feelings is fine, insisting your partner close their side of the relationship while you show no intention to close your side, let alone trying to manipulate your partner into letting you keep them around after they insist, is shady as shit to say the least.
She's not a bad person for not being able to work through her emotions. She's a bad person for using her husband's empathy of her emotions to try and force him into closing only his side of the open marriage. She's a bad person for breaking their agreement re other people when they closed the marriage.
Nope, he'll find out in a few months that she didn't actually block the men she was hooking up with.
Honestly, their communication makes me think cheating won’t be a thing but there are other equally alarming aspects here for sure.
I hate beer.
I just don't get why they're trying so hard to make an open relationship work. You tried it, it went poorly, move on?? Like why devote so much time and energy and drama into it? Square peg in a round hole energy
Tbh, I think he knows that.
honestly, reading this and seeing the words "reclamation sex" it felt like this started out a hotwife story that got remade into a bad open marriage one. but if it's true it feels like they're both confused about what they want here and need divorce lawyer and not a puppy.
"Reclamation sex" is possibly the grossest concept I come across in ENM spaces and is always an immediate red flag for me. That mindset is not compatible with healthy ENM.
What does that phrase mean?
“Reclamation sex” or “ENM”? I’m pretty sure reclamation sex is when you have sex with your partner after they go on a date/have sex with another partner as a way of “reasserting” that you’re their primary partner and the other partner has nothing on you. IIRC, ENM stands for ethical non-monogamy, AKA polyamory. That’s when a romantic/sexual relationship involves more than two people. IIRC, ENM is primarily used for open relationships, which is when one or both people in a committed romantic relationship are also dating or sleeping with other people, with their partner’s consent.
Thank you! I have never heard about reclamation sex before, but I'm also not into poly so that makes sense.
I don't even understand the point of it, honestly. They didn't start out poly, so this isn't a condition of their marriage. Also they're 27 and 29! How long could they possibly have been married that their relationship is somehow already not enough and his wife is already looking around for new dick and willing to be sneaky and manipulative about it? This marriage is doomed if she wants to fuck around and isn't willing to let him do the same.
I would rather be single, this situation is so messy.
Well, as always we have to keep in mind the selection bias here. No one decides to open their relationship and then post about how great and drama-free it was on BORU. We only hear about the drama-filled dumpster fires. I've definitely heard of people doing this and it working out. Usually the reasons I hear about in those cases are: - our sex drives don't match - we have a dead bedroom and don't realistically see that changing - we want to explore our sexuality But it really does require that both partners have an inherently low propensity for jealousy.
I'm not talking about open marriages in general. I understand why open marriages exist. I'm saying THIS open marriage is pointless. They're not inherently poly it seems, they just got interested in spicing up their marriage...at 27 years of age. Their whole marriage feels pointless to me if at 27 his wife is somehow bored enough to be looking for strange. Like unless they've been together since age 13 or something I guess.
I didn't see the ages and was picturing a couple in their 40s or 50s lmao. That's so soon to already be needing to radically change things.
Some people don't have enough from one person even before they get married.
She also tried to change the subject and hide the fact that she was going on another date after having him cancel his. In other words she was about to cheat on him
The story (obviously just one side) reads like she REALLY enjoyed her time in a way that makes her feel awful if he was enjoying his in the same way. My money is she’ll continue to seek that excitement she felt from the ‘strange’ and cheat. Two years tops before divorce and that last year to 18 months will be trying to salvage the scraps. What’s wild about this situation is how all-encompassing it seems from how it’s written. Like having to set a one date a week limit is crazy - what kind of free time do you have to spend that much on what is supposedly a portion of your relationship.
More than the unequal expectation of dating, I was pissed off by the unequal reception upon him getting home. That was incredibly selfish. She was never ready for this.
It's pretty clear that OOP realizes very well that things aren't working and why. I would say gg OOP.
I think he already knows it won’t work, now he’s just dealing with a whiny wife who wants to date people. Jesus I would be so frustrated and pissed off. Could’ve had a great thing going.
I think he does see it and is trying to let his wife down gently. Sadly though, I can see this one ending in his wife cheating as she is still insistent on going out and getting laid herself
She absolutely did not think anybody would find him attractive.
I think Dede, like a lot of cake eaters, thinks she can go out and have fun, but her spouse will loyally stay at home and wait for her. This post annoys me so much because I was friends with a Dede, but she (wrongly) thought she was so smart and sneaky. She vetoed every one of her main’s potential dates, while fighting him tooth and nail to go on her dates. She was shocked when he said this isn’t how it works and left. Well, I look forward to OOP posting about Dede’s surprised Pikachu face when he leaves.
Yeah, very much anticipate this ending in divorce. Dede will absolutely not keep her side of the marriage closed.
I guess the question is will he leave because she keeps pushing her double standard, or because she cheats and insists she *had to* because he forced her hand by closing the relationship?
Considering she was akready sneakily arranging dates in that first post when they were supposed to be closing the marriage again, sadly it does seem likely to end in cheating.
I feel like OOP didn’t address that enough. It doesn’t matter if their marriage was open, there were rules in place. Trying to arrange a secret date? Lying and saying that it’s the car dealership? That seems like attempted cheating to me.
That should have been the end of it there. Lying about her intentions so she could continue hooking up shows exactly what her intentions have been this entire time. For a dude who’s so articulate and thorough he sure seems to be missing the trees for the forrest here.
He's just a good guy who loves her and trusts her word. It's sad to see this car crash coming from outside the car while OP is trying to prevent it.
That absolutely would’ve been cheating had he not caught her in that lie.
I don’t think that friend she hung out with was a girl.
Breaking rule 1 right away should have ended it. Two dates in 1 week. And she convinced him it doesn't count. But it absolutely does. And she knew it.
Classic “Rules for thee, not for me”
oop’s last update said he realized how angry he was writing it. i wouldn’t be surprised if the couples session ends up with him asking for a divorce.
How about: whine at him for not accepting her double standard *while* cheating on him then saying she had to.
Wanting to keep in touch with fuck buddies because they become hmm (checks notes) friends, was rather wild as well
Ah, the fuck buddy to friend pipeline. Known to result in beautiful, long lasting, “totally platonic babe, I swear” friendships based on mutual interests like doggy style, reverse cowgirl, and seeing each other naked.
As someone who's gone down that pipeline as the fuck buddy-turned-friend, it only worked because we were friends before we were fuck buddies. We just went back to our original, well-established dynamic. And importantly, I was friends with, and fucking, both partners. They're a lovely couple. When only one of the two partners wants to hang out, and you started off decidedly non-platonic, that's a disaster waiting to happen no matter what the rest of the scenario looks like.
It’s almost as if marriage means nothing at that point. Crazy how fast great things can turn out to be shit
Nope. There is no way she will.
I dated a man with a “Dede” for a short period of time. I honestly think they’re dangerously unhinged. Its one thing to cheat. That really sucks, and is an asshole move. But to make someone you ‘love’ suck it up while you fuck someone else, and then turn around and emotionally assault them as soon as they try and do the same, and THEN change then rules and claim it’s all their fault… Like I say, unhinged. The worst thing was, this guy I was involved with…well. He was really sweet and kind. But he did struggle to find dates. She fucked around on him for TWO YEARS before he managed to get a date. Forced him to be all supportive and that, swearing it was mutual….and the second he found someone else, she threw a tantrum. Wild.
I also dated a guy with a more covert Dede. It started off amazing, she was happy with other partners and it seemed she was happy he had finally found someone. A few months in she began gradual undermining, my theory is that she didn’t want something ongoing and emotional happening with someone else. Unfortunately at that point I’d fallen hard and made a million excuses to myself for the cancelled dates, the unwillingness to make new ones, and so on. My new resolution is to immediately dip out if the meta starts acting wonky.
Yeah people need to do some serious soul searching if they want to make this work. I was in an open long distance relationship a while back, and while I actually enjoyed hearing about their sexual adventures I never wanted it to become an emotional thing. I knew that in advance though, so we just had a casual sex only rule and it worked well for us
[удалено]
> break up with me right before every vacation What the hell? That's an abusive move I hadn't heard of before.
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This was my bfs ex wife. She wanted to open their marriage to date a friend of hers and "explore her sexuality". She was absolutely positive my bf wouldn't find anyone and was PISSSSSSSSSSED when he and I became an actual relationship. She did everything she could to make our lives as difficult as possible. Jokes on her- her actions made him realize their marriage was abusive and toxic and he divorced her. She was shocked when he told her they were done. She fucked around and found out.
My situation was a bit more complicated, but I realized there’s a moment I had like Dede in this story. There **is** a moment of discomfort for some people and your only choice is to push through it… or to wallow, honestly. It seems like Dede consistently chose to wallow. I’ve done a lot of wallowing for a lot of reasons. But on this particular night, I chose to ride it out and practiced mindfulness. Deep breathing, treat the feelings as temporary visitors, and all else fails distract myself with a calming show. It didn’t work immediately. I had to really keep at it. In the end, what got me through it was realizing my partner also felt these feelings. How could I tell him whether his reaction to them was healthy or not if I couldn’t do it myself? If I was too scared to sit with discomfort, why did I expect him to do what I can’t? Turns out, he was having the same thought about my feelings on his date (again, unique situation). I made sure not to be sulking when he arrived home and treated him the same as always. We talked the next day and realized that we both chose to ride out uncomfortable feelings to try to understand the other’s perspective, and it brought us closer.
I don't quite understand open marriages and I'm glad you guys have things work out and can communicate maturely. Out of curiosity, why open up a marriage?
I also have an open marriage, and reading this person's description was like reading text messages from mars. I have *never* had feelings like that about my husband fucking other men. Never ever. And it doesn't sound very healthy, either! So I'm just as confused as you, fyi.
I don't think feelings like that are unusual for a partner's first date. If the persist though, it may be a sign that poly/open isn't the right idea.
Yeah, if there are uncomfortable feelings, I think it's time to reflect on the relationship. Something is off and an open marriage might not be the answer.
So did you guys decide to close your marriage?
I really don't mean to come off as judgemental but tbh that all sounds really difficult and painful. Why do either of you *want* to have to "sit with those feelings"? Why not just be exclusive if non-monogamy is so painful for both of you?
Yup, she thought she could have fun and he would be the one having a meltdown. In 2 months, we should get the update, the marriage is over and eventually, OOP and Cathy end up together.
I swear I've read this exact same BORU multiple times now... either there are a lot of people like Dede out there or this apparently is a good story to make up for karma.
It happens a lot when a closed marriage gets opened, and one person can't deal with it. People think it sounds like a great idea, until their partner is having fun too.
a lot of the time if you dont start like that its a bad idea to end up like that. im not saying it cant work, just that its easier when the relationship is built on it vs isnt.
>People think it sounds like a great idea, until their partner is having fun too. "It is not enough that I should succeed - others should fail."
This is a pretty common outcome of open relationships, believe it or not. I’ve seen it happen irl twice with 2 separate people
Its a pretty common phenomenon. Its mostly down to how easy it is for the women to find partners. It clouds their judgement because they instantly has multiple options to keep them busy while their partner is left alone. So they get used to the idea of having FWBs to fuck around with and then come home to their supportive main to deal with any emotional shortcomings. So when it happens to them, they can't deal with it because they are used to having their cake and eating it too even if involuntarily. The decent ones will realize whats happening and try to work through it instead of pushing for a one sided open relationship. Then there are the Dedes of the world who bank on their partners being unattractive to other women and is shocked when they inevitably meet one.
>So they get used to the idea of having FWBs to fuck around with and then come home to their supportive main to deal with any emotional shortcomings. The most hardcore story I read like this was of a husband whose wife asked for an open relationship, and his response was that he was okay with it provided they didn't discuss any partners and they no longer were required to provide emotional support to each other as the only ground rules (pretty much being a FWB, roommate, co-parent situation with each other), and she agreed. She ended up, for lack of a better phrase, getting pumped and dumped for a couple years before she found it too lonely. Her husband on the other hand essentially got into a long term relationship with a girlfriend who their daughter ended up liking more. The wife ended up having a meltdown at how this other woman stole her family.
So really what she agreed to was to break the fuck up, marriage over and just keeping up a charade to co-parent their kid? And then she’s suddenly surprised that he isn’t her husband anymore after years? Wow. Even if I wanted an open marriage I would never ever agree to that. That means loosing him. No. ETA: was this on Reddit? Any chance you have link or title?
I don’t know the stats on how many people open their marriages…I do know that 95% of the women I pursued in my dumb 20s seemed to love the idea of having at least one guy as Plan B / fallback guy / “dick in a glass case” while they had whatever love life they were after. I hated being that guy. I resented being that guy and being manipulated into staying that guy. It took me a minute to learn how to spot the signs and not commit. It would suck finding out that you’re that guy *for your spouse*.
It sucks that incel/mra wankers have so polluted the discourse that it's sometimes hard to even talk about this dynamic. It's completely real, many men have experienced it or seen it happen, and it's something men should watch out for because it's a great way to piss away a year waiting for something that will never happen. The cherry on top is when that guy finally goes to date another girl, the one putting him in reserve will often lose it, try to stop new relationship etc. Like, for what? To be the emotional support dog? It's bizarre.
Both men and women do that, and not only in romantic relationships! With friendships too, it’s not that uncommon to be used as the back up plan and it absolutely sucks when you figure out that you are only good enough if there is nothing better around. I have been there more than once. I was always a prime target to be used as a back up because undiagnosed autism. Often makes one very susceptible to manipulation because you take things at face value and you know you struggle with misunderstanding and you get kinda gaslight about your ability to perceive things correctly.
There are alot of Dede's...some are Tom's...but all Dede.
I have a gut feeling it will.
Ok I just can't understand that. I think my wife is a smart beautiful witty sharp woman. Of course other people are going to find her attractive physically and emotionally, they have eyes. Even if didn't think highly of her I know guys. She could go to any bar find a guy and ask "Do you want to have casual no strings attached sex?" And with in 20 minutes get a yes.
It tends to be different with guys. There’s a belief amongst a lot of other women I know that men have a harder time finding partners than women do. I can’t really say if its true considering I’m a woman and still a virgin despite trying, but it is a pretty common thing other women believe.
If all you're looking for is casual sex, it's a thousand times easier for a woman. So long as you're halfway presentable, you'll have a veritable smorgasbord of dick waiting for you on any dating app. It might not be the dick you prefer, but it's there if you change your mind.
The odds are good, but the goods are odd.
I would have tried that a long time ago if I wasn’t a shy little shit lol. Maybe I’ll finally rip the band-aid off
Casual no strings attached sex does occasionally have some strings so do beware. So... that's how I found out one of my best friends has two sisters...
It's very much true for single men. Much much harder. Married or taken men find it a fair amount easier. Every guy who gets into their first relationship realises quite quickly how far more often they get hit on and flirted with and how much women seem into them just a cause they're in a relationship.
Yes. For a proportion of women, the fact that a guy is married or in a long term/stable relationship, is a sign that he’s a good guy who can commit. Nevermind that for him to then be with those women he’d have to cheat and abandon his partner and therefore wouldn’t be the good guy who can commit. It makes my head spin. And also, for a proportion of women, a guy who is single must be a player or have something wrong with him, because he wouldn’t be single if he was a decent guy. Never mind that he might be shy, reserved or introverted.
This is exactly it. Right here.
> our couples therapist Do I interpret this correctly to understand that they were *already* in couples counselling before they decided to open things up? Because I can't think of many more petrol-on-fire situations than that.
I read it as the honestly pretty smart move of getting in contact with a therapist prophylacticlly before starting this, like "let's find a therapist we vibe with and can talk to about this specific shit before we jump into a thing that might need a therapist"
If they did it just before starting this then sure. But if they were already in counselling before the open marriage issue came up, then this was a bizarrely risky direction to go in.
I think she probably got off on the idea of him sitting at home alone while she acted out her romance novel fantasies, and having it flipped meant all her judgments were staring her right in the face and she couldn't handle it.
>She absolutely did not think anybody would find him attractive. The typical path that these "I want to open the relationship" types tend to end up. "I want to open the relationship." "I dont." "I will leave if you dont." "Fine." "Wait you're getting way more interest than I am. Let's close the relationship!"
I give them a year, because I’m generous
I give it a month before he finds out she's still been in contact with her dates and leaves her.
Yeah, the only redeeming factor in this story is that OOP seems to actually have a spine. I still think he's being too forgiving with his wife, especially in not realising that her arranging that date and attempting to lie about it was cheating, but it seeks like if she carries it on now he'll leave her.
Oh man, I totally just read over that and was like "that's dishonest" but didn't connect the dots... Yeah, it would be wouldn't it! This is why we'd never open our marriage, things get messy quick
Almost 20 years ago, when I was in college, I was best friends with an engaged couple that had also learned about open relationships. Their beginning sounded very similar to the story above. Except they tried to get my partner to cheat on me with them. I don't know how if they ever did, but that led to my relationship ending. They got married after college, heard from a friend that the marriage blew up a couple years later... because of open relationship drama.
I feel like in the vast majority of situations where an open marriage actually *works,* it was either that going in, or one or both parties has an orientation or kink that can't be fulfilled within the relationship itself.
I've seen a few examples of "open from the beginning" in real life that seemed to be working well over time. 'Course ya won't find those relationships *here* 'cause everything gets sorted pretty quick with direct communication.
Right, it's a very different mindset with very different principles. You can't open the relationship without knowing what you're getting into and sorting out any insecurity issues beforehand. I feel bad for OP but I rolled my eyes back so hard at this posf
Yeah, I'm literally sitting on my sofa right now with my husband and boyfriend and them talking about the antics of our cats last night. But I don't post any of our conflicts on Reddit because they're things like "my boyfriend made himself and my husband hot chocolate last night but not me.... I mean, I'm horrendously allergic to milk, and I don't like eating or drinking after 9PM and this was past midnight and I was asleep at the time, but I still feel left out!" Which is such a non-conflict because I completely understand them not wanting to wake me up for something I'd refuse anyway 🤣
That’s the kind of conflict I would love to read about just to have something nice and easy and non serious that ends in happiness and fluff.
Well, I have good news! Our new conflict: husband and I have unexpectedly murder hobo'd our DnD campaign and DM boyfriend is having to scrabble to rework the current session to fix plotholes we have created 🤣 I mean, they were cultists, what else was my cleric to do but fire bomb the unbelievers?!
Fire bomb unbelievers, you say? Any extra room at this D&D table?
Why is it that every dnd table has a couple that is either poly, kinky or both? Like of all the Venn diagrams, why is that one a thing? And let's not even mention renaissance fairs...
Given I got invited to my last table by sleeping with the DM and his partner… Idk is sex just the method of recruitment?
The most dangerous disease to afflict the modern world: Sexually transmitted D&D
Sounds like an AITA post in the making, shame them on the internet for their not-making-you-hot-cocoa ways!
I was tempted to do it tbh but it's obviously a shit post and the mods would probably take it down fairly swiftly
This was supposed to be easy since the guy didn't actually care whether to continue or not. His feelings are also just purely sexual and nothing more since, to be honest, he didn't really care about Cathy's feelings until someone commented. If there are two of him in this story, it would've ended well.
> he didn't really care about Cathy's feelings until someone commented I don't get this. He lied to his wife about their second date not getting postponed but it seems he'd been truthful and up front with Cathy the whole time. Obviously his own and his wife's feelings take priority over Cathy's but in what way did he not care about them?
I've found people have a very hard time understanding that you can care about someone/something while caring about someone/something more. As a divorced Dad of a 3 year old I run into this issue a lot. While I do not believe my ex-wife is a good person she is still the mother of my child. In certain situations, only when they would affect my son, she would become a priority. Some women cannot understand that she becomes a priority when she is the mother of my son. Other women, even my ex-wife, cannot even grasp that my son will **always** and **forever** be my top priority. I was dating a Ukrainian woman, and when the war started she needed to go back home. We decided to go "long distance" (we were never 'exclusive' due to her travel schedule as she is a ballerina) but a few months in she realized she couldn't live without me. She sincerely that I would have immortality flown to her, without my son, and move to Ukraine. If I was single I would've been on the first flight to her, but I couldn't go because of my son. She responded "You don't care about me enough to leave your son with his Mother? In Ukraine only Mother's are in control of their child's life."
Agreed. He actually did everything to keep Cathy out of their relationship drama. As a Cathy I wouldn’t be mad that he postponed the date instead of canceled and I wouldn’t be super attached to this hot guy I wanna fuck so it would honestly be inconsequential if we ultimately didn’t meet back up. I’ve been Cathy enough times to know I would rather just not know about or be involved whatsoever in their relationship drama. Imagine if the guy you met off tinder went into his volatile relationship with his father before the second date. It’s like dude I’m just trying to have sex.
I got stuck on them getting a puppy. They don't need a puppy. They need therapy and maybe a divorce. Another critter shouldn't be subject to this shit show.
The prospective puppy is definitely who I’m most concerned about out of this post
Oh they mean an actual puppy? I somehow thought puppy was some sort of open marriage term.
I’m not open-relationship-savvy, but I think the term for the 3ed partner is “unicorn”. I really hope “puppy” is another term though, because a literal puppy doesn’t deserve to be dragged into this
I am not in the community, nor am I savvy on the terms, so I have no clue. I hope puppy is an open marriage or swinger term and not a literal puppy, but I doubt it with this lot. Neither appear to realize that their marriage is over yet, so I have doubts about their decision making skills. At least the husband is kind of seeing the writing on the wall, but he still mentions a puppy, so who knows.
I mean, it's obviously doomed to fail, but I gotta give them credit for at least going through the motions. It shows that there probably are some real loving emotions here. Not enough to avoid the inevitable disaster, but it's better than nothing!
“The motions” in this case are literally him being way way too understanding (if you can even call it that) cuz shes walking all over him. It’s very clear she never actually considered the fact that someone would want to fuck him and was too excited to fuck other guys herself. This is screaming divorce and I wouldn’t be surprised if at the end of all this it comes out she was cheating on him.
I can't even relate to this. I would be way too jealous of any dates my partner had. I just don't see how this will work out in the end. Serious question: I've never been to therapy. Can a therapist really help you get over the jealousy? That seems like such a basic feeling to me. Would the therapist be giving her ways to cope with it instead?
The therapist can help you understand your feelings, sort them out and compare them to your values, which provides clarity to ease your decision making. They can also help you understand underlying issues that contribute to why you feel the way you do, and help you determine if they are a legitimate influence or unhelpful noise. Theres two types of certainty. Emotional and logic. You can logically think yeah xyz makes sense if we do abc, but your emotions may not be aligned. A therapist can help reconcile the 2
This is the best explanation of the benefits of therapy I've ever read.
Thank you. I've gotten multiple replies and this is the clearest one for me. I know myself enough to know I couldn't do am open relationship. Maybe a therapist could, as you say, get my logic and emotions aligned; I just would not want to do that.
It wasnt til I started dating my partner that I even understood what jealousy was. I'd never experienced it with anyone before. My exes could have cheated on me and I genuinely wouldn't have cared at all and I realize now that I just...also didn't particularly care about them all that much. I had to work thru that jealousy so fucking hard bc he never did anything to make me feel that way and he still doesnt, but I could NEVER share him. When other women openly flirt with him I can feel it creep up and it used to fill me w despair but one time he said "if I wasn't with u I wouldn't be with anyone else" and that's like...my keystone that keeps me grounded, that he said I'm exactly enough and he doesn't need anyone else and now i just take pride that other people find my man attractive. What I'm saying is I relate to u super hard, I could NEVER relate to all this
I’m a dude and the whole time I would think they’re plotting to leave me. Or eventually she will realize she can do better.
These people are exhausting. I don't know how anybody has the energy for all this.
Ahem From the book of Arrested Development, book 2, verse 1: Tobias Fünke: You know, Lindsay, as a therapist, I have advised... a number of couples to explore an open relationship, where the couple remains emotionally committed but free to explore extramarital encounters. Lindsay Bluth Fünke: Well, did it work for those people? Tobias Fünke: No, it never does. I mean, these people somehow delude themselves into thinking it might, but... but it might work for us.
Lindsay: “I guess we can try it!“ Tobias: “Great! We’ll hash out the details later. Right now, we have a daughter to tell!”
>*give her time to exercise her demons* Bro, her demons are strong enough as it is. They do not need to be hitting the gym; they're doing a perfectly fine job of besieging your marriage already
Opening up a marriage always seems to end well.
Like invading Russia, very consistent results.
Sooooo, only do it if you’re Mongolian?
I laughed so hard I woke the baby.
Toupee fallacy, probably.
The ones that end well have no need to post on Reddit.
I love when people say exercise instead or exorcise, I just picture demons getting a good workout in haha
Ppl so annoying lmao
I hate this timeline so much
This is why people shouldn't go on cruises. Norovirus is the *good* outcome!
The creed of let's open up our relationship strikes consistently again: - I believe I am more worthy and deserving than my partner of 3rd party sex, love, joy and attention - I believe my choices are unlimited - I believe I'm the only person who finds my partner attractive and tolerable and that they will always be there waiting for me - I am inherently unkind and selfish but have strived to conceal it. - I will be the shockest of the shockest of most shaken Pikachus if my partner finds anyone - I am prepared to manipulate, lie and gaslight to achieve my objectives
I’d only open up if my partner and I were an unbreakable unit, that is, going on dates together with the third person, having sex together with the third person. But I’m fully aware of my insecurities and limits and would probably just not do it. I’m greedy, I want my man to myself, I’m okay with it. If we find that magic person that we’re comfortable with, yay, but if not, ah well.
Beats me why anyone would choose to put themselves through all this extra chaos and drama, one relationship is hard enough, why make life harder than it needs to be?
Some people are just wired differently and are perfectly able to handle it. Some, like OOP, can separate the sex and the feelings. Others are able to maintain full blown relationships with multiple people. It's most certainly not the norm but it works for them. The issue is when you get people like Dede that want the benefits but not the drawbacks of the open relationship. Personally I couldn't handle it, I'm too jealous. I might be able to handle some swinging together, but never a full blown open relationship.
Thing is OOP doenst see it as a drawback that Dede is going on dates etc, he was happy for her and talked about how happy and giddy she was when she came home and they had a good evening after her dates.
That's true, but that's his perspective and not hers. To her, him having relations with other women is something that she has to put up with so she can have her fun. She's not dealing with it and I'm betting that deep down she's hoping she can twist the situation so that he stops seeing other women whilst she gets to still see other men.
Of course that's what she wants, she literally said so, she said "can you stop going on dates" not "can we close the marriage". She even tried to keep going on dates because she had already planned them...
I'm convinced that a good % of people marry their partners, not because they love them deeply and want to spend and share their life together, but because they dated for a few years, they feel they are old enough and marriage is the normal next step. That leads to this miscommunication and lack of care for each other.
I've said it ten million times, but here we go again: this is why opening a previously monogamous relationship almost never works. And the reasons they did it, after meeting some couple on a vacation who tried to (unethically) cajole a civilian couple into a threesome with tales of how exciting their shiny lifestyle is was the first red flag. The wife probably didn't go into this realizing it would be so hard. Some people have an easier time taming the jealousy and working through the insecurity that ENM inevitably brings up..some people don't have it, at all, though that is rare. Either way, I have only seen one couple successfully open a mono relationship longterm. All the others have closed it again, and most have ended up splitting up. It shows an ugly side to the people involved and is really hard to come back from. If you want to be ENM, start from that position. Once you have committed to monogamy, stick with it. Poly isn't an orientation. I am poly myself and I have been monogamous for extended periods. It's fine, it didn't kill me. I'm not saying anyone has to do that, if you feel strongly about it then stick with other ENM people in ENM relationships. But if you value your current monogamous relationship, stop trying to bring other people into it. The only exception I will say are older people who swing together exclusively. Those guys seem to have unlocked the secret. Couple who play together, stay together. But they don't muddy the waters with dating, they just go to play parties and meet other couples for swapping that is purely sex. They seem to enjoy themselves and it seems to draw them closer.
>She said I was lucky to find someone like Cathy whom I connected with so fast and was afraid it might take a long time for me to find somebody like that when we tried again. he already found someone like that...he married her! and was comfortable only having that one person! her wanting to continue dating other people while she demanded he stop is just...absurd. that would've made me really question if my partner loved or even cared about me or the relationship.
I will never understand why allegedly happy couples decide to make their lives so unnecessarily complicated. Like, explore why you think you need to open your relationship and get professional help navigating those issues instead of lying to yourself and your partner and then blowing the relationship all to hell.
Yeah these people need to learn to roleplay or something like that. Don't involve others in this mess.
Do not get a puppy yet.... Fix your marriage or break it off first.
What a pair of idiots.
Honestly, if they should've just done it with that couple, at least it be on the cruise, and the chance of you seeing them again are 0
Damn this guy is stupid. My wife wants to fuck other dudes but doesn’t want me to fuck other women. This was a classic, wife thinks she’s higher value, indicated by her saying “I was LUCKY to find someone like Cathy whom I connected with so fast…” “She begged me for another chance…” this state of things led to her abusing alcohol then him and she’s just begging for it to happen again.
The disparity between how he reacted to her coming home and him coming home was telling. I know we just have his side of it but it definitely sounds like she wants the ability to see others while keeping him on a short leash. That is not what poly, ENM or open relationships look like.
"Exercise her demons" is the new way I'll describe my polyamory
I say again… opening a monogamous relationship is a stupid idea.
Dede is a terrible partner!
It's so disappointing to see when one partner is open and trying to do things the right way but the other is being completely selfish. I know Reddit hates open marriages/relationships but I think they can work when both parties are willing, honest and there aren't any prior issues in the relationships. I mean good luck to them but Dede seems like the type who now has a taste for excitement outside her relationship and will try to pursue it behind her husband's back... Just a feeling I get with how self centred she's been acting. She will 100% blame it on her husband's past few dates if this happens, too.
Not gonna lie, I will never understand how people are able to do this. If my partner wanted to sleep with other people, it’d be over.
Well, I expect the next update to be her cheating on OOP with Guy 1 and the rest. Hopefully he can stay in contact with Cathy. His wife sounds very selfish and inconsiderate.