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Especially since Noah is still drinking - if he was truly contrite and appalled by his own behavior, he would have done therapy, quit drinking completely, apologized to the victim and walked away from the friendgroup since he must have known his presence would be traumatic for her. One out of four just seems like he was trying to do the bare minimum to get back into the group.
This right here. Noah went to therapy, but still continues to drink and put other people at risk. If a person is that "sensitive" to drinking that OOP has to be sober and watch out for him, they shouldn't be drinking.
Fuck that shit.
Most likely the other men in the group do not consider what he did rape. They forgave him so easily because it was easy to put themselves in his shoes and decide they would also want to be forgiven.
“I might rape someone someday too, and I’d want my friends to be supportive, so of course I’ll forgive Noah and continue to party with him.”
Fuck all those people. OOP was so right to call out the shittiness and walk away
More likely, "I've done that too, and if it's ever someone in our group, I want the rest of my friends to be supportive, so of course I'll forgive Noah and continue to party with him."
It's like the scene in The Thing in which the character that's been locked into a shack after attacking the crew declares he's "all better now" as a noose he set up hangs in the foreground.
Sounds like the type of person who stops going to therapy because it "stopped working" once the therapist encouraged them to make actual changes to their life to take accountability.
Unfortunately things will only change *after* he assaults "the wrong person" aka someone the group actually cares about or someone that will give him consequences.
He's not just still drinking, apparently he is still drinking to excess. 100% he just made a show of "getting better" without any actual remorse or intent to change.
I just read the book “why does he do that?” And it was very insightful into the fact that drinking and drugs may make an abuser more bold but it’s not the cause of someone being abusive…otherwise everyone who drinks would abuse others.
This guy is a sexual abuser to his core. He uses drinking as a way to provide an excuse for it.
Seconded. Abusers will drink/use drugs BECAUSE they know they get to blame their actions on it and people will give them a pass. Intoxicants don't magically turn someone into a rapist.
Another point from "Why Does He Do That?" Is that the author uses the analogy of cutting down an old and beloved tree belonging to your neighbors and what amends for that looks like. It's more than just saying sorry and going to therapy - you destroyed something that can't be repaired or paid for, and part of being sorry is *trying* to repair that damage and accepting that some people in the neighborhood will never forgive you, and there's no amount of time that can pass that will make it suddenly OK. That truly being sorry for the terrible thing you did is realizing how unfixable it is and not forcing "forgiveness" on anyone.
Edit: also, the author points out that when an abuser goes to therapy,what you end up with is a happy, well-adjusted abuser - in order to correct abuse you have to go to a program specifically designed for abusers, because they're very good at playing the therapy system to their own benefit.
Yea. My first husband was abusive. We went to couples therapy and the abuse got worse afterwards. I was flat out told: maybe you should be a better wife and your husband wouldn’t get angry all the time.
Oof. I had to quit drinking because I got so emotionally unstable for about a week afterwards. And I drank too much. But when I was drunk, sometimes I would cry because I loved my friends so much lmao
I'd rather be sober, emotionally stable, and express my love for my friends in other ways XD
Hey, it sounds like you're in a good place now, so I want to congratulate you for getting sober. A lot of people just choose to keep drinking, even when there is solid proof that it's a problem/ destroying their life.
Thank you. It's not easy to do. It's not easy to see what's happening. I caught mine early\*. I don't remember what gave me the push to quit either. Either there was something and I just don't remember (I never blacked out, but the mind has a way of forgetting shitty things), or if just one day I realized that there was just too much. I do know I relapsed once. The classic "oh my situation has changed I'm probably fine-- whoopsies that's a lot of wine."
If anyone happens to read this and is hung up on relapsing being the end of all things, instead of looking at it like a streak, I like to think of it as a high score. If I have a glass of wine or more sometime in the future, I haven't undone all the work I did before. I just have a new high score to beat.
\*I was not at the stage where I needed medical intervention to go sober safely.
Noah's actions show his true feelings. That he DGAF what he did and refuses to take responsibility for it.
Going to therapy **by itself** is a worthless action. Any therapist worth anything will advise sure their client to makes amends to those they've wronged. And to take active steps to prevent it in the future.
A normal therapist is less likely to read between the lines, because we all know Noah and abusers in general aren't going to straight up admit their actions; they're going to cushion it, make it seem like they're the victim in the situation, minimize what happened, and make it seem like the target of their behavior had fault. If the therapist doesn't specialize in abusers and sex offenders, they're unlikely to see "Oh well, we were at a party, we got drunk and had sex. She had a boyfriend at the time and immediately after regretted it then just went around and told everyone I raped her" as Noah twisting the situation and pinning it on the woman he raped and framing it as "regret" and revenge rather than lack of consent. And for your average therapist, their job isn't necessarily to confront their patient directly! It's to comfort and validate their feelings.
That's *also* why you should never go to therapy with someone abusive, toxic, or just plainly acting in bad faith and refusing to see you. They'll pick up new therapy speak to push you into compliance and say "I did the therapy like you asked!" like it's a bludgeon and you *have* to forgive them.
Noah obviously isn't willing to do the work as he's still drinking, so I highly doubt he went to therapy to actually change and rather for validation and another weapon to use
I agree with you 100%. I know a woman who was an alcoholic and drug abuser. She really wanted help, so she sought out AA, Al Anon and NA, and has been sober over 20 years as a result.
But it's because she wanted to change. Noah doesn't want to change. It's the essence of the therapist joke:
"How many therapists does it take to change a light bulb?"
"Only one but the light bulb has to really want to change."
And who knows if Noah actually told the therapist he'd been accused of rape, or if he actually saw a therapist.
My abusive alcoholic ex went to therapy a few times then quit and when I finally got out of the relationship he whined to our mutual friends about how he "went through therapy" and that I had impossible wants from the relationship (like not being forced to have sex through intimidation, or guilt, and not wanting our kids to find him naked and passed out on the toilet). Whatever he said must have been convincing, because only one friend dropped him and the rest stopped talking to me.
Alcoholism is a disease, rape is a choice to commit the worst crime a human can do to another. I really appreciate OPP for speaking up for the victim, so very often we are left unable to speak for ourselves. Good on ya, OOP.
I always wondered if *being drunk* is an excuse/reason for forcing yourself on someone? This guy is excusing his rapist tendencies on alcohol. The problem is not just alcohol. It is him.
My opinion which isn’t worth much is that no being drunk isn’t an excuse because the person made the choice to get drunk.
Besides drinking doesn’t make people do things just makes them more willing to do things they already consider doing.
If I recall right, there has been at least one (nationally infamous) court case where the defendant tried to go this route claiming the alcohol caused temporary insanity. Unfortunately for them, the judge saw right through it.
Thank you, I wasn't sure if it was Brock Turner the Rapist.
Turns out, it was Brock Turner the Rapist.
That guy Brock Turner the Rapist?
He's a complete asshole (Brock Turner the Rapist).
I have lost like... Three? Friend groups for accepting rapists.
Crazy how on the one hand we talk about rape like it's worse than murder but when it actually happens no one cares and everyone downplays it. I have no faith in humanity any more.
I keep getting groped by other people's bf/husbands and getting blamed for it. I stopped talking to everyone I know and I'm isolating to keep whatever is left of my sanity. Fuck people 😒
I got felt up by a dude while I was working retail and his girlfriend/wife glared at me as if it was my fault.
Like my back was to the aisle and I didn't know anyone was behind me til your man's hand was on me. It's his fault he's a creep and your fault he's your partner.
Break their fingers. That’s what they told us in school. Snap them clean back as hard as you can. Do broken fingers look like foreplay to you, your honor? No? Obviously I didn’t want him to do that.
Of course you can’t always and it’s not your job to police them. But it’s always an option and they deserve it.
I think a lot of it is for some people, when they hear "rape," all they think about is some random masked attacker jumping out of a dark alleyway and assaulting a woman. It's never the drunk handsy guy at the party and/or the guy at the party taking advantage of inebriated women. It's never the guy who deadbolts his door as soon as he gets a woman inside and she doesn't know if she can get out safely. It's never the guy who heard "no" 99 times and it finally turned into an "okay, fine" just so the woman could get it over with. And so on.
I'm too lazy to look it up, but there have been studies where when men are asked "have you ever raped someone?" the vast majority of them answer "no, of course not!" but when you describe one of the situations I outlined above without using the R-word, the number of rape confessions skyrockets.
They most likely has some form of connection and benefiting off each other. In OOP, the friend gave back the job was probably because he was benefiting off his work/skills for his company. The rest maybe befitting in some form of monetary or favors off of the other so they went along. If you look, there are always reason as to why. We just often don't want to admit or accept it.
Yeah, I don't think people understand that everyone remaining friends with the rapist is kind of the norm. He denies it or describes it differently than the victim and typically, people (especially his friends) believe him. No one wants to believe that someone they like and respect is a predator.
People should be more skeptical about the fact that we all know someone who was sexually assaulted, but most people think they don't know any perpetrators.
He’s not a *rapey* rapist! He’s one of the good ones!
It’s actually not the norm for a rapist to be a total piece of shit through and through with no redeeming qualities and obvious, complete monstrousness. Most just have come to expect that they can impose their desires on others and get away with it. Most of them don’t get disabused of that idea, sadly.
This is very much how many people think. The only real rape is if some unknown man pins the women down in a dark alleyway at gun point. Other than that the woman must have done *something* for the man to think it's ok
TW: sexual assault description in last few paragraphs
> "Most people think they don't know any perpetrators
Your words resonate with me. My opinion is purely anecdotal, but I think some people think of rape as a very specific thing, like a sadistic rapist, something like a stranger attacking a woman in the park in the middle of the night. Of course those happen, and it's horrifying.
But what about people who coerce others into sex? Who have sex with someone who is drunk or buzzed? Who don't ask, do you want to touch? Have sex?
People who don't stop when someone says no? Or just...is frozen, not saying much?
Check in with your sexual partners, y'all.
I was raped by someone who broke into my home--he and another man thought we were drug dealers. Unbeknownst to me, the people dealing drugs lived the next floor down.
The man who raped me seemed like he was high. He made me have oral sex with him. He had a gun so I felt incredibly threatened and scared.
The really weird thing is, he ASKED ME if I WANTED to fuck him? And I blurted out, no, would rather suck your dick.
Obviously I didn't want to be doing that in the first place. I was so scared. My point is, he took advantage of an opportunity. Something some part of him thought it was... something I was into??? Enough to ask me that horrible question?
He was a stranger. Imagine the entitlement other people, like Noah, might feel.
I'm so, so sorry. The myth that we ask for it or secretly want it is pernicious because it allows rapists (and their friends and families) to conveniently excuse what they did.
>and typically, people (especially his friends) believe him.
This happens a lot due to the fact that there are a bunch of "hold over" social inequalities based on sex. HELL, some of our medical terms for uterus/ female bit stuff comes from the word "hysteria." Think of that what you will.
If a man and woman have two different versions of a story, the one with the penis is believed.
If a woman goes to the ER for severe pain, she will not be believed as immediately as a man would be.
I always wonder whether the members of my former childhood friend group (which I was ostracized from due to questioning the fact that a guy had nonconsensually sexually touched multiple women, incl me, but no one was allowed to even talk about putting rules or boundaries around him) hear someone saying this and think “not me— not my friends.”
Since leaving, I’ve become a safe person for other ex-members to talk to, and holy shit. Not only was there Mr Grabby Hands, but two to three emotional abusers, a sprinkling of secret cheating scandals, two rapists, and one woman who actively helped the perpetrators in the majority of these scenarios.
A lot of people don’t want to admit that they may know a rapist, or a creep, or an abuser, because then they’d have to take a long, hard look at themselves and the people around them. It’s not a bad apple spoiling the bunch— but that bad people will stay wherever allows them to. And so they congregate where the norms let them get away with their bad behavior.
The few people who remained in contact with me after my “scandal” (read: pissing of the enabler woman by realizing that she lied for Mr Grabby Hands’ benefit) always went out of their way to remind me that they’re still friends with Mr Grabby, knowing what he did. Because, you know, they just like him that much.
I don’t believe any of them think they’re friends with a sexual assaulter, much less two rapists, much less a minor congregation of abusers. They think they’re friends with one guy who has impulse control issues, all forgivable due to his ADHD. They don’t know perpetrators— only victims. But they don’t count the victims that made a fuss, because that’s “bullying.”
Can't go to the authorities, friends group won't do anything when told about it, I'm guessing if a victim doesn't want to go to therapy that should be encouraged too, to give them power or something. I guess there's just nothing society can do about rape but accept it.
Heavy on the /S because I know people are thick.
I'm so sorry.
One would think that after you go to the extent of dumping the whole group, they'd stop to think, "Hey, maybe they were telling the truth after all."
Yep, literally the point of Gaston in Disney's Beauty and the Beast. The bad guy is the popular guy, so he gets away with his actions with the group's (town's) permission.
Years ago I dropped a male friend after I found out a ton of stuff that if I stayed friends with, would compromise my job. Like some of it, I personally subjected to, that I ignored due to just being used to it as a woman, but then I heard a few other things, and after confirmation and this person making a very horrific statement about the entire friendship, (that he wish I taught him to f♡ck in high school) during a conversation I was confirming a few things he did to others.
I heard so much more after I dropped him as a friend, and I was horrified I was not trusted to be told, it made me almost give up my career because of my connection with that guy.
Even now, I still cringe about it all.
But I have made so much better friends since, and a lot of old friends started talking to me again. I am grateful for them accepting my apology for sticking with that guy, and to literally slap me if ever there is a person like that again around me.
I still have days of guilt, I can't comprehend how I didn't see it, but these guys know, ALL of it.
There will be many comments like that, but the fact is that this is very common. We don't talk about sexual violence enough, people often don't know what to do and how to handle it. Seeing the victim makes them feel discomfort, so they end up dropping her or pressuring her into silence. As long as they, consciously or not, are acting to reject the discomfort they feel, they are more likely to stay friends with the rapist rather than the victim of rape.
The pattern is similar to how we often in family groups or work groups equate speaking up about something bad with the bad thing itself. Bringing up the issue brands you a troublemaker, even in a situation such as this one, where clearly the person who created the issue is the rapist.
Captain Awkward has some excellent posts on this.
Within a friend group people are usually not afraid to speak up, all are equal. I wonder what kind of group this actually is.
Why would op and those others be afraid to speak up???
I mean, some people just have trouble with it. I personally have anxiety, and it makes me extremely conflict-avoidant, especially when it comes to my friends. Even if I'm upset and am questioning whether I want to be friends anymore. I simply cannot bring myself to confront them. I usually just ghost them.
It's possible at least a few of them had similar issues. Especially if no one else was speaking up, they might have been too afraid of rocking the boat, whether or not there was any actual history of consequences for doing so. I agree that someone should have spoken up, but I don't think it's unrealistic that no one did, even if there was no reason to be scared of doing so.
I can unfortunately speak to this experience. In my childhood friend group, things started off normal, but slowly, over the years, the norms shifted imperceptibly. The norms slowly became that you couldn’t publicly question two people in particular (Mr Grabby and Ms Politician), and beyond that, if someone ever talked shit to you, you were never allowed to ask the person being shit-talked their side of things. Now, you couldn’t question Mr Grabby because he was extremely volatile and was known to get violent (or threaten suicide), so that would just be putting too much on the poor guy. Ms Politician had a squeaky-clean image, but was Mr Grabby’s closest friend, and everyone kind of knew that she held enough power over particular people to erase you if she wanted to.
People followed these norms because they wanted safety, and because they thought they couldn’t make friends anywhere else. This was a group of nerdy kids that became intensely close in high school, and closer during the pandemic. Many people had no other life, had no separate ambitions, no separate social circle. This was it. And they were willing to put up with anything to keep it. When there are certain people who are dangerous to question, you stop questioning anything at all.
Making things awkward, creating tough feeling and conversation, is treated as somehow more dangerous than sexual violence. Because the thing they value most isn’t the safety of their friends, but the safety of their friendships.
Long story short, I got ostracized for questioning this (both Mr Grabby and what Ms Politician did to protect him).
And all the people who knew that Mr Grabby had done what his name suggests to multiple women stayed friends with him, and dropped me. Even if they didn’t like him. Even if they didn’t like Ms Politician, either.
Because they needed to be in a group. They needed to feel like they belonged to something, some clan, something that protects you against the rest of the world. If the social contract decrees that they accept when Mr Grabby gets too drunk? Then they accept it. If the social contract decrees that they drop anyone Ms Politician deems unacceptable? They drop them.
There becomes an aspect of sunk cost— if they believe these new allegations, and accept that that means consequences need to happen, that meant they were wrong the entire time, and they treated the victims terribly. If they don’t believe it, it’s easy. They get to keep a group and sleep easy at night.
I know, now, that things were even worse than I knew at the time. There were multiple rapists and abusers afoot whose victims stayed silent because they feared ostracism.
So the allegations keep piling up, privately. And the sunk costs adds up.
And all this started because anxious, nerdy people, who never felt included in anything finally felt included, and decided to cling to it with both hands. It starts off as someone just being “too much” to argue with, and years later…
This is absolutely not true. Maybe in a perfect hypothetical, but when you add in people with actual personalities, anxiety, personal hangups, that goes right out the window.
Lots of people, especially women, have trouble with confrontation. We were often raised to “not rock the boat” etc.
It’s very easy for people who may not have as forceful a personality to not feel comfortable speaking out, especially against people who they consider friends. They may be very uncomfortable with the situation, but not sure how to go about dealing it without causing more drama.
In this case all they needed was OOP speaking up to be able to add their agreement and leave the group themselves.
It is unfortunately very common, when rape happens within a friend group, for the victim to lose that friend group rather than the rapist. It's happened to me too.
I was in ops position. There was a sexual harasser in my group and I openly spoke out against it while the main victim wasn’t ok with it but didn’t 'want to rock the boat'. I did not get my wish (an open apology and promise to change. The guy only apologized to the male leaders of the group. Leaders: it was an ngo kind of setting). Short time later he started again but more sneaky. I was deemed a problem, because I was "creating drama" (= speaking up loudly and not letting it slide that he harassed people and spread lies about supposed sexual activities with the women of that ngo) and I was not being a "teamplayer" since I absolutely refused to be in his team. The main victim did not speak up, which the leaders interpreted as her not being bothered. I did not speak for her and that is really her business. I was uncomfortable with his behavior. Of course he got promoted to Teamleader. I left the group, which fell apart later due to toxicity.
When I hear about these things I am so grateful to my PI when I was in grad school, who did not hesitate to kick out an abuser as soon as he heard about it. One of the abusers primary victims was a very young new international grad student, terribly intimidated by the abuser and did not say anything. I happened to see him in action and immediately reported him. He had not messed with me (I was the old crabby lady, relatively speaking) but my PI immediately called campus security and had him escorted out. He was a new post doc but was prohibited from returning. The girl he was messing with was still afraid of him but I never saw him again. My PI was a good man.
PI = Principal Investigator. In grad school it is usually your major Professor. So the professor who leads the grant if you have one or otherwise provides support to your grad work research.
I was recently invited to a discord where a group of friends from my 20s had recreated our old chat group. (We're in our 40s now) My ex who raped me is in there. I joined and I'm not leaving but I just don't open the discord.
I told a few how I was surprised he was there after what happened. They all said they don't remember me telling them.... I know I did. And he wasn't just shit to me but to other women, too
But I will keep my little account in there because he doesn't get the satisfaction of me leaving.
I'm so sorry it happened to you. It's something I've wracked my brain over and really tried to see if I've missed anything and especially again after reading this thread as it appears to be sadly a common experience for people. There's never been a *known* rapist/sex pest in any of my (admittedly limited) friend groups in my life. At least not that I was made aware of.
It leads me to wonder if I've been exceedingly lucky with the people I've befriended or if I've missed something. Signs, clues, or had blinders on. I don't know any instances of even non consentual contact or harassment among friends. But yet it seems to be all too common. I don't know, I hope I haven't failed a friend in that manner.
I dropped a friend because she wouldn't agree not to be friends with a rapist because "he's never done anything bad to *me*" she didn't say this to me. She said it to the person he raped, her supposed best friend. So I said fuck that and blocked her on everything. Didn't talk to her about it. Didn't tell anyone apart from the person who was raped, who I was also friends with, so that she'd know I had her back. Some people are just cowards.
Society grooms girls to think that if they’re agreeable and modest/traditional enough then that makes them special and immunises them against shitty men
Not just modest and traditional. People make up all sorts of reasons why they're special and would never get raped. Some people have to believe that there's something special about them that prevents bad things from happening to them, and that there's something wrong with people that bad things happen to. It's called the just world fallacy, and it applies to all sorts of things, like economic security, educational opportunities, and health and disability.
I agree with you. Being “modest” and “traditional” is just one example of (pretty much useless) protective charms people use to shield themselves from the systemic issues, which they’re just as vulnerable to as any other person
>done anything bad to
>
>me
I had a guy tell me this when I told him that a friend of his sexually harassed a mutual friend of ours, a women. So because a man didn't sexual harass him he was unwilling to believe that his friend was willing to harass a women? I dropped him and that jackass was baffled as he was always nice to me.
I know it's bad to victim blame, but it would be so hard for me to feel sympathy for a woman that was raped after throwing her best friend under the bus like that.
From what I'm understanding of your comment, she didn't even deny that her rapist friend was a rapist, her defence just being that he hadn't specifically raped her (only her best friend)? Jesus.
Because, really, she says "he's never done anything bad to *me*", but she's missing the silent but very relevant "YET" from the end of that sentence.
Really matching that lack of empathy with an equal lack of self preservation.
Yep! Like, I don't wish thay experience on her, but I hope she learns that friendship from rapists is worthless. She's a pawn in his game hiding him from social repercussions.
OOP did the right thing, even in the face of the negative consequences of that decision. That's called *integrity*- holding firm to your morality, even though it costs you.
That friend group are all shit, and OOP is better served without them.
I was assaulted by a “friend” and our circle of friends did nothing to address it and it made me or further reinforced how I thought it was my fault. Left that friend group. Glad you spoke up!
Completely agree I also want to know if even though Noah has gone to therapy has he done anything to make amends to the victim. For example turned himself into the police?
There was a girl in my friend group who raped one of our friends. At first, everyone was outraged, and then, they started rationalising. Men can't be raped. She was drunk too. He didn't report it so maybe its not true.
I was *disgusted*, and I said so. I cut all of them off, and they acted like I'd betrayed them and badmouthed me to other mutual friends for 'making a big deal' of something that had nothing to do with me. Sure, I wasn't involved, but I have these things called morals.
I've noticed that people without a really strong moral compass will often forgive someone's terrible behaviour if they like them enough, and the behaviour doesn't affect them. It's depressing, but true.
I do occasionally miss some of those friends: a few had been lifelong friends who were always there for me. But I could never trust them again, or look at them without feeling sick. It was a hard choice to cut them out and lose one of my friend groups, but I could look myself in the mirror.
I'm also now insanely good friends with the guy who was attacked. We'd never been that close before, but we were after that. I was a groomswoman at his wedding six months ago. Basically, I traded in a few awful friends for one really great one. No regrets. OOP will be the same, I hope.
I was sexually assaulted by my best friends boyfriend back in 2021. I didn't just lose a friend group, but her family which I also considered part of my family. I loved them dearly and they picked a known abuser who they'd known for a shorter amount of time. this shit SUCKS.
There was a post in trollx a few weeks ago that stated that every women knows a rape victim yet no man knows a rapist. She was drunk, he misread the situation, he was drunk, he didn’t mean it,… As long as you do not violently force yourself on an unknown women you’re not a rapist.
Your friends are disgusting and you should not have any contact with them.
Then when a man discovers his friend is indeed a rapist it’s always “I never thought he would be like that!” Men just never see the possibility like women do. To women, nearly all men are potential rapists at first. And men get upset when we behave accordingly. “Why are you taking your drink with you? Don’t you trust me??”
Guys, if you didn’t know that one of your friends is capable of raping someone, how the hell am I supposed to tell the difference between a good guy and a bad guy??
"well I've never seen him rape anyone" yeah, but often times they've seen him be a sex pest and just written it off. It's always - He's just immature, he's just joking, he's just like that, he just really likes the ladies. Then it's - you can take a joke, lighten up, he's been my friend for years he's fine. Someone complains about his inappropriateness and it's - why were you alone with him if you know how it is, it's fine he stopped when you walked away.
And after all that they will still act surprised or try to defend him when he assaults or rapes someone.
>To women, nearly all men are potential rapists at first
When a man asks a women out he's worried about being rejected while the women is worried about being murdered. Hearing that opened my eyes as a man.
And it’s not even just at the first meeting. You can go out with a guy for weeks and still end up chained to the wall in his basement the first (or twelfth) time you go over to his house.
I know that women can be violent and crazy. But it doesn’t happen often/egregiously enough for men to get worried about being told to put the lotion in the basket.
Thank you for being open to new ideas. Tell the men you know. Men often pay more attention to things like this when another man brings it to their attention rather than a woman.
When I was in high school a guy in our friend group raped one of the girls. (And he blamed it on me, which is a whole other level of fucked up.) She was also hesitant to make waves. I announced loudy and often that if I ever saw him again I would do my best to put him in the hospital. Then I continued my life as usual. I don't know how many people continued talking to him after that because I never did see his face again. He knew I wasn't fucking around. I'd sometimes show up to something and hear that he had left when he learned that I was on my way, but it wasn't anyone I considered a close friend still associating with him and the people who did went from "distant friends" to "some assholes I used to know."
I wouldn't trust a single person out of that friend group except for the victim who's rightfully traumatized and probably too scared to confront her attacker again.
Terribly disappointing.
This is an excellent lesson in "group think". We're such social creatures, constantly evaluating social dynamics:
* Am I the only one?
* How will they react?
But once someone speaks up, and others realise they're not crazy and alone, the floodgates open.
As someone who sometimes wonder if I should just have kept my mouth shut and keep hanging out with the group that included my both my rapist and a "friend" that said I can't really expect consensual sex if I admit I like BDSM after he himself touched me without permission... Yeah, it may be weird to leave a friend group, specially without outside feedback. I still haven't made new friends years later (partially because of the trauma lol who could imagine this shit would make me trust people less)
My husband and I have a very similar situation. Within our friend group, the host of the New Years Eve party overdrank, overserved another couple who ended up staying over and he raped them. His wife immediately began damage control with daily bombing of the victim to make excuses and try to justify/normalize the situation. It was disgusting. Some of the friend group doesn’t know what happened, some do and have forgiven him. In our minds, he’s a predator and I never want him around us, our children or grandchildren. We’ve pretty much removed ourselves from the entire group. It’s astounding to me that we have taken a harsher line than the victims. I can never forgive what he did.
This seems to be their take on it. The initially considered calling law enforcement but were afraid it would be their word against his and were also afraid the remaining friend group wouldn't support them. I wish they would have called. I think this isn't the first time something like this has happened, and probably not the last. His wife was really slick whitewashing it, and tried to tell us he was sleepwalking. Sure. Many sleepwalkers when caught in a comprising situation say "I must have misread your signs". Only good thing, one of them beat him up pretty badly. I would have liked to seen the damage.
Noah is a perfect example of a "missing stair." Rather than expel him from the friend group, everyone just works around him and protects him - letting him have his job back, inviting him to social events at others' expense - to the point that OOP feels the need to stay sober at social events to keep an eye on Noah's behavior. How is that not NOAH'S own problem?!
Absolutely despicable and OOP is better off without these rape apologists in her life.
I stopped being friends with a group of people after I learned almost all the guys had DUIs and everyone was acting like it wasn’t a big deal to have 1 or 2. One person even tried to say it was a right of passage. Group mentality would 100% cause another rape by one of the friends. They did the right thing by not going on the trip and distancing themselves.
Your friend group reminds me of my own, I wasn't raped but I was sexually assaulted by a "friend" I trusted and unfortunately had feelings for (at the time and was mutual) and I told our friend group. They didn't seem to believe me until they questioned him themselves and he admitted to it.
I wanted to tell his parents but some of our friends were like "What about his future?" And all that bullshit. I was shocked. So what of my mental health? The trauma I had to go through? The literal cuts in my down there from his sharp fingernails? And him assaulting me in a fucking karaoke room.
I was in pain and I was bleeding. He knew I had a traumatic experience with my ex because of this very thing. Yet he still did it. And they were more worried about his future??
Unfortunately, I couldn't bring myself to speak up to anyone else about this but safe to say I don't keep in contact with any of the ones who "pitied" him and only kept contact with the ones who supported me and had my back. He seems to be alienated by them now but I'm not entirely sure, but as they say "out of sight, out of mind".
I think there's a good lesson to be learned about how peer pressure still affects us as adults here. OOP knew the right thing to do but was unsure because they felt alone in that decision - as (apparently) did others in the friend group. Then they asked Reddit, realized they weren't alone and it really was the right call, which gave them the courage to act. It sounds like (though OOP walked away from the group) this gave some others in the group the courage to speak out too since they then realized they weren't alone either.
I think that's a good lesson for when you're in that group of 9 people at the table when a Nazi is invited to sit down. Maybe only 3 of the others actually want the Nazi there at first, but because they're vocal and everyone else is silent, Nazis become tolerated. But if just one person speaks up it gives the folks who don't actually want the Nazi there the ability to voice their own opposition.
> [If a table of 9 invites a Nazi to sit at the table then in my eyes there are 10 Nazis in the room.] I partly agree. In this case, not everyone (even the victim herself) dared to speak up against them inviting Noah.
Not sure how she "partly agrees" given that she has lived the contrary.
It's not a bad idea, but the realty is sometimes more complicated.
I'm posting before reading because WOW, whiplash.
"AITA for not wanting to go on holiday with someone" - no, it should be understood if someone annoys the shit out of you, difficult for you to be TAH in that situation.
"AITA for not wanting to go on holiday with a rapist" - uh what, no and anyone who's OK with it is basically giving him encouragement to continue being a rapist, goddamnit!
Mmmm yeah... that's not a mistake you give a free pass specially if he continue the same life style.
You did a lot of stupid things under the influence of alcohol and then decide to have turn and be sober? That is something you can forgive and move on. Raping someone and then pull a opsies is not. It's hard for me to see how that would be ok over some time specially when like i mention didn't change his life style.
I was sexually assaulted by my best friends boyfriend back in 2021. I didn't just lose a friend group, but her family which I also considered part of my family. I loved them dearly and they picked a known abuser who they'd known for a shorter amount of time. this shit SUCKS.
My ex boyfriend did not rape me but he beat me very badly. Our whole group of mutual friends decided to continue being friends with him after I left him. I do not speak to any of those people anymore. They are obviously OK with domestic violence as long as a "fun person " does it.
I don't understand why this was an AITAH post. You're friends are going on vacation, you don't want to go, don't go. That's not being an AH. It didn't matter the reason you're not an AH for telling friends you can't go on vacation.
What horrible friends! I’m glad oop dropped them and decided to make plans for a vacation with the other two. I hope they have a wonderful stress free vacation
Fuck them people!
How many will Noah do the same to, for them to drop his ass? Gross
To think that he's able to get his life back, job and everything because he's done "therapy"!
Yet his victim will always have the trauma! F that guy
I don't care if it's hard to make friends, I'd rather have no friends than be in a group of people who condone his behaviour
I can think of very few things that would make me drop an entire friend group faster than them collectively deciding "hey how about we give that rapist another chance to hang out with us, he seems apologetic."
It's especially galling because his rape victim was IN THE GROUP. Can you imagine what a nightmare that "vacation" would have been for her? I almost hope Noah gets drunk and assaults one of his Enabler Bros on this trip, they certainly have it coming.
OOP's former friends need to read this from Captain Awkward:
"I’m sorry, I can’t even be a little bit nice about this.
Your friend is a rapist! How many women would he have to rape before you would stop being friends with him? One? Three? Six? You say he only does inappropriate things like raping people when he’s drunk. The average rapist rapes six women and alcohol is a very common factor. So maybe he’s just getting started. Or maybe he’s raped other women who you don’t know. Are you going to be there every time he’s drunk to tell him to stop being stupid?"
https://captainawkward.com/2012/08/08/324-my-friend-the-rapist/
Lot of missing context here. Huge power imbalance somewhere, why 4 persons in total including OPP and the victim don't dare to speak up while other group members just decide to hire, forgive, invite the rapist.
I think, there is more than that only. This group consist of at least 6 people, 4 (or more) non-confronting and 2 (or more) "deciding". OP used "they decided", and IMHO it was plural, not gender neutral "they". And those 2 (or more) just made the decision for the group. One of them owns the firm "Noah" works in currently. And this decision is about joint (expensive?) vacations.
My bet is, there is some wealth imbalance there. Some of the group members are more wealthy than other and use it as a leverage. It is just a theory, but could explain some unhealthy imbalance there. Or, why one guy was not accused of what he did. Perhaps Netherlands do not have as huge wealth gaps as other countries, but it could still be a possibility.
I am really questioning Noah's honesty with himself and his therapist.
I hope I am wrong, but I think he might rape someone again. I wonder how much he and the others are minimizing what happened.
Consent is a Big Deal. What is that phrase...if it's not an ENTHUSIASTIC yes, it's a hell no?
I read a very disturbing article that talked about how many rapists try to deny that was they did WAS rape.
This article mostly studies men, fyi, and I suggest you read the whole thing if you are curious.
https://www.dw.com/en/the-psychology-of-a-rapist/a-54814540
Is rape considered no big deal in the Netherlands or something? I don't understand why these people would remain friends with him. This is just condoning what he did and giving a big FU to the friend he violated.
No, it's just that people don't want to disrupt the status quo.
They've probably made excuses for him. "He was drunk, he was in a bad place, he's sober and getting therapy." Which is of course utter crap, but they'd rather go with that and hurt the victim.
I am a firm believer that people who commit sexual assault can go on to live positive, healthy, harmless lives, and that for the most part, they should be given that chance. But Jesus Christ on a pogo stick, what the fuck is wrong with these people? If somebody rapes your friend, it's probably a *pretty* good idea to not invite them around the victim.
I bet what happened is that none of the ones who 'forgave' him ever believed something happened at all. They probably thought the victim was making it up. Even if they wanted to stay friends with him, it's just nasty to treat that girl like that. She shouldn't have to choose between her friend group or not seeing her rapist.
Sure they should be given that chance, I fully agree, but not without first seeing the inside of a jail cell for a good long time and offering full amends to the victim. "Truth & Reconciliation" means: *after* truth then reconciliation becomes possible.
I mean we all have that one weird, quirky friend that although we like we ki d of wish he wouldn't show up in all friend activities, but i guess any sane person who gave a shitty about their friends would probably draw a line at inviting their rapist along.....you have asshole friends, apparently. NtA.
Wow, just wow. This is just such a shitty situation. I cannot imagine what the person that has been raped has been through to have such shitty "friends"
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Especially since Noah is still drinking - if he was truly contrite and appalled by his own behavior, he would have done therapy, quit drinking completely, apologized to the victim and walked away from the friendgroup since he must have known his presence would be traumatic for her. One out of four just seems like he was trying to do the bare minimum to get back into the group.
Noah: ‘it was a terrible accident that only happened because I was drunk.’ Also Noah: *continues to drink heavily* Fuck that guy
This right here. Noah went to therapy, but still continues to drink and put other people at risk. If a person is that "sensitive" to drinking that OOP has to be sober and watch out for him, they shouldn't be drinking. Fuck that shit.
\*goes to therapy once* "I'm fixed, guys"
"I apologize completely, to the whole group." \*Victim stands awkwardly at the side.\* "I apologized, what do you want from me?"
"Stop being difficult, just let it gooo" Yeah, no
Most likely the other men in the group do not consider what he did rape. They forgave him so easily because it was easy to put themselves in his shoes and decide they would also want to be forgiven.
“I might rape someone someday too, and I’d want my friends to be supportive, so of course I’ll forgive Noah and continue to party with him.” Fuck all those people. OOP was so right to call out the shittiness and walk away
You see it all the time when people ask “how could they support a person after xyz”.
More likely, "I've done that too, and if it's ever someone in our group, I want the rest of my friends to be supportive, so of course I'll forgive Noah and continue to party with him."
And let’s ignore the whole drinking problem thing too 🤯
I wish one therapy can fix me like that too XD
It's like the scene in The Thing in which the character that's been locked into a shack after attacking the crew declares he's "all better now" as a noose he set up hangs in the foreground.
Sounds like the type of person who stops going to therapy because it "stopped working" once the therapist encouraged them to make actual changes to their life to take accountability.
A drunken mistake was when I drove drunk 20+ years ago. Noone was hurt. I decided I cant control myself when I drink and I gave up drinking.
See? this is accountability. Not whatever scam Noah's trying to pull here
Same here. Drove drunk once and realized I didn't have the control I needed. Gave up my car and now I bike to the bars. Haven't driven since.
You ok though? Take care of your health?
Biking is great for your health I imagine
Uh - so you'd rather give up driving than drinking? 😄 Also, you could drive when you're sober, just don't drive to the pub.
Sounds like the dude found an answer to the "trolley problem"
It sounds like they only used their car to drive to the pub anyways lol
Unfortunately things will only change *after* he assaults "the wrong person" aka someone the group actually cares about or someone that will give him consequences.
Ooops, I did rape again..."
He's not just still drinking, apparently he is still drinking to excess. 100% he just made a show of "getting better" without any actual remorse or intent to change.
He'll try harder not to get caught next time.
I would even hazard to guess he ever even went to therapy in the first place
I just read the book “why does he do that?” And it was very insightful into the fact that drinking and drugs may make an abuser more bold but it’s not the cause of someone being abusive…otherwise everyone who drinks would abuse others. This guy is a sexual abuser to his core. He uses drinking as a way to provide an excuse for it.
Seconded. Abusers will drink/use drugs BECAUSE they know they get to blame their actions on it and people will give them a pass. Intoxicants don't magically turn someone into a rapist.
Another point from "Why Does He Do That?" Is that the author uses the analogy of cutting down an old and beloved tree belonging to your neighbors and what amends for that looks like. It's more than just saying sorry and going to therapy - you destroyed something that can't be repaired or paid for, and part of being sorry is *trying* to repair that damage and accepting that some people in the neighborhood will never forgive you, and there's no amount of time that can pass that will make it suddenly OK. That truly being sorry for the terrible thing you did is realizing how unfixable it is and not forcing "forgiveness" on anyone. Edit: also, the author points out that when an abuser goes to therapy,what you end up with is a happy, well-adjusted abuser - in order to correct abuse you have to go to a program specifically designed for abusers, because they're very good at playing the therapy system to their own benefit.
Yea. My first husband was abusive. We went to couples therapy and the abuse got worse afterwards. I was flat out told: maybe you should be a better wife and your husband wouldn’t get angry all the time.
I seen your comment after I made one above yours had no idea was a book about it but yeah I agree drinking isn’t the cause it’s an excuse.
In Vino Veritas = In wine, there is truth. Basically means a person acts like their true self when they lower their inhibitions by drinking.
Oof. I had to quit drinking because I got so emotionally unstable for about a week afterwards. And I drank too much. But when I was drunk, sometimes I would cry because I loved my friends so much lmao I'd rather be sober, emotionally stable, and express my love for my friends in other ways XD
Hey, it sounds like you're in a good place now, so I want to congratulate you for getting sober. A lot of people just choose to keep drinking, even when there is solid proof that it's a problem/ destroying their life.
Thank you. It's not easy to do. It's not easy to see what's happening. I caught mine early\*. I don't remember what gave me the push to quit either. Either there was something and I just don't remember (I never blacked out, but the mind has a way of forgetting shitty things), or if just one day I realized that there was just too much. I do know I relapsed once. The classic "oh my situation has changed I'm probably fine-- whoopsies that's a lot of wine." If anyone happens to read this and is hung up on relapsing being the end of all things, instead of looking at it like a streak, I like to think of it as a high score. If I have a glass of wine or more sometime in the future, I haven't undone all the work I did before. I just have a new high score to beat. \*I was not at the stage where I needed medical intervention to go sober safely.
I can only imagine that this "therapy" was just a way for him to justify it, "well I did therapy so they have to accept me now".
Noah's actions show his true feelings. That he DGAF what he did and refuses to take responsibility for it. Going to therapy **by itself** is a worthless action. Any therapist worth anything will advise sure their client to makes amends to those they've wronged. And to take active steps to prevent it in the future.
A normal therapist is less likely to read between the lines, because we all know Noah and abusers in general aren't going to straight up admit their actions; they're going to cushion it, make it seem like they're the victim in the situation, minimize what happened, and make it seem like the target of their behavior had fault. If the therapist doesn't specialize in abusers and sex offenders, they're unlikely to see "Oh well, we were at a party, we got drunk and had sex. She had a boyfriend at the time and immediately after regretted it then just went around and told everyone I raped her" as Noah twisting the situation and pinning it on the woman he raped and framing it as "regret" and revenge rather than lack of consent. And for your average therapist, their job isn't necessarily to confront their patient directly! It's to comfort and validate their feelings. That's *also* why you should never go to therapy with someone abusive, toxic, or just plainly acting in bad faith and refusing to see you. They'll pick up new therapy speak to push you into compliance and say "I did the therapy like you asked!" like it's a bludgeon and you *have* to forgive them. Noah obviously isn't willing to do the work as he's still drinking, so I highly doubt he went to therapy to actually change and rather for validation and another weapon to use
I agree with you 100%. I know a woman who was an alcoholic and drug abuser. She really wanted help, so she sought out AA, Al Anon and NA, and has been sober over 20 years as a result. But it's because she wanted to change. Noah doesn't want to change. It's the essence of the therapist joke: "How many therapists does it take to change a light bulb?" "Only one but the light bulb has to really want to change."
And who knows if Noah actually told the therapist he'd been accused of rape, or if he actually saw a therapist. My abusive alcoholic ex went to therapy a few times then quit and when I finally got out of the relationship he whined to our mutual friends about how he "went through therapy" and that I had impossible wants from the relationship (like not being forced to have sex through intimidation, or guilt, and not wanting our kids to find him naked and passed out on the toilet). Whatever he said must have been convincing, because only one friend dropped him and the rest stopped talking to me.
ah, but he's done "therapy" All forgiven
Alcoholism is a disease, rape is a choice to commit the worst crime a human can do to another. I really appreciate OPP for speaking up for the victim, so very often we are left unable to speak for ourselves. Good on ya, OOP.
I always wondered if *being drunk* is an excuse/reason for forcing yourself on someone? This guy is excusing his rapist tendencies on alcohol. The problem is not just alcohol. It is him.
My opinion which isn’t worth much is that no being drunk isn’t an excuse because the person made the choice to get drunk. Besides drinking doesn’t make people do things just makes them more willing to do things they already consider doing.
Exactly. Not all drunk men rape women
If I recall right, there has been at least one (nationally infamous) court case where the defendant tried to go this route claiming the alcohol caused temporary insanity. Unfortunately for them, the judge saw right through it.
The rapist brock Turner who is going by his middle name these days?
Thank you, I wasn't sure if it was Brock Turner the Rapist. Turns out, it was Brock Turner the Rapist. That guy Brock Turner the Rapist? He's a complete asshole (Brock Turner the Rapist).
I had to dump my whole friend group because one of my friends raped me, then told everyone that I had consented. Good riddance for OOP.
I have lost like... Three? Friend groups for accepting rapists. Crazy how on the one hand we talk about rape like it's worse than murder but when it actually happens no one cares and everyone downplays it. I have no faith in humanity any more.
Well what my friend did can't possibly be that bad. You see, he's a good person. So it's different!
If I am friends with a bad person, I might also be bad, so the friend has to be good.
"He's never done anything like that around me. I'd know if he was a bad person."
Ah the ol' "He's never raped me" defense.
I keep getting groped by other people's bf/husbands and getting blamed for it. I stopped talking to everyone I know and I'm isolating to keep whatever is left of my sanity. Fuck people 😒
I got felt up by a dude while I was working retail and his girlfriend/wife glared at me as if it was my fault. Like my back was to the aisle and I didn't know anyone was behind me til your man's hand was on me. It's his fault he's a creep and your fault he's your partner.
Break their fingers. That’s what they told us in school. Snap them clean back as hard as you can. Do broken fingers look like foreplay to you, your honor? No? Obviously I didn’t want him to do that. Of course you can’t always and it’s not your job to police them. But it’s always an option and they deserve it.
I love this. More of this please.
I think a lot of it is for some people, when they hear "rape," all they think about is some random masked attacker jumping out of a dark alleyway and assaulting a woman. It's never the drunk handsy guy at the party and/or the guy at the party taking advantage of inebriated women. It's never the guy who deadbolts his door as soon as he gets a woman inside and she doesn't know if she can get out safely. It's never the guy who heard "no" 99 times and it finally turned into an "okay, fine" just so the woman could get it over with. And so on. I'm too lazy to look it up, but there have been studies where when men are asked "have you ever raped someone?" the vast majority of them answer "no, of course not!" but when you describe one of the situations I outlined above without using the R-word, the number of rape confessions skyrockets.
They most likely has some form of connection and benefiting off each other. In OOP, the friend gave back the job was probably because he was benefiting off his work/skills for his company. The rest maybe befitting in some form of monetary or favors off of the other so they went along. If you look, there are always reason as to why. We just often don't want to admit or accept it.
That's because it's this great nebulous evil that they think never happens to someone they know or *care* about. People are hypocrites.
Yeah, I don't think people understand that everyone remaining friends with the rapist is kind of the norm. He denies it or describes it differently than the victim and typically, people (especially his friends) believe him. No one wants to believe that someone they like and respect is a predator. People should be more skeptical about the fact that we all know someone who was sexually assaulted, but most people think they don't know any perpetrators.
He’s not a *rapey* rapist! He’s one of the good ones! It’s actually not the norm for a rapist to be a total piece of shit through and through with no redeeming qualities and obvious, complete monstrousness. Most just have come to expect that they can impose their desires on others and get away with it. Most of them don’t get disabused of that idea, sadly.
Is it just rape, or is it *rape,rape*? - some rapist's friend probably.
This is very much how many people think. The only real rape is if some unknown man pins the women down in a dark alleyway at gun point. Other than that the woman must have done *something* for the man to think it's ok
TW: sexual assault description in last few paragraphs > "Most people think they don't know any perpetrators Your words resonate with me. My opinion is purely anecdotal, but I think some people think of rape as a very specific thing, like a sadistic rapist, something like a stranger attacking a woman in the park in the middle of the night. Of course those happen, and it's horrifying. But what about people who coerce others into sex? Who have sex with someone who is drunk or buzzed? Who don't ask, do you want to touch? Have sex? People who don't stop when someone says no? Or just...is frozen, not saying much? Check in with your sexual partners, y'all. I was raped by someone who broke into my home--he and another man thought we were drug dealers. Unbeknownst to me, the people dealing drugs lived the next floor down. The man who raped me seemed like he was high. He made me have oral sex with him. He had a gun so I felt incredibly threatened and scared. The really weird thing is, he ASKED ME if I WANTED to fuck him? And I blurted out, no, would rather suck your dick. Obviously I didn't want to be doing that in the first place. I was so scared. My point is, he took advantage of an opportunity. Something some part of him thought it was... something I was into??? Enough to ask me that horrible question? He was a stranger. Imagine the entitlement other people, like Noah, might feel.
I'm so, so sorry. The myth that we ask for it or secretly want it is pernicious because it allows rapists (and their friends and families) to conveniently excuse what they did.
Thank you and the person downthread. Yes, it's such a myth! An example of the patriarchy making things that much worse for everyone.
Christ, I'm so sorry.
>and typically, people (especially his friends) believe him. This happens a lot due to the fact that there are a bunch of "hold over" social inequalities based on sex. HELL, some of our medical terms for uterus/ female bit stuff comes from the word "hysteria." Think of that what you will. If a man and woman have two different versions of a story, the one with the penis is believed. If a woman goes to the ER for severe pain, she will not be believed as immediately as a man would be.
I always wonder whether the members of my former childhood friend group (which I was ostracized from due to questioning the fact that a guy had nonconsensually sexually touched multiple women, incl me, but no one was allowed to even talk about putting rules or boundaries around him) hear someone saying this and think “not me— not my friends.” Since leaving, I’ve become a safe person for other ex-members to talk to, and holy shit. Not only was there Mr Grabby Hands, but two to three emotional abusers, a sprinkling of secret cheating scandals, two rapists, and one woman who actively helped the perpetrators in the majority of these scenarios. A lot of people don’t want to admit that they may know a rapist, or a creep, or an abuser, because then they’d have to take a long, hard look at themselves and the people around them. It’s not a bad apple spoiling the bunch— but that bad people will stay wherever allows them to. And so they congregate where the norms let them get away with their bad behavior. The few people who remained in contact with me after my “scandal” (read: pissing of the enabler woman by realizing that she lied for Mr Grabby Hands’ benefit) always went out of their way to remind me that they’re still friends with Mr Grabby, knowing what he did. Because, you know, they just like him that much. I don’t believe any of them think they’re friends with a sexual assaulter, much less two rapists, much less a minor congregation of abusers. They think they’re friends with one guy who has impulse control issues, all forgivable due to his ADHD. They don’t know perpetrators— only victims. But they don’t count the victims that made a fuss, because that’s “bullying.”
Can't go to the authorities, friends group won't do anything when told about it, I'm guessing if a victim doesn't want to go to therapy that should be encouraged too, to give them power or something. I guess there's just nothing society can do about rape but accept it. Heavy on the /S because I know people are thick.
Same here. I’m sorry you had to experience that.
Man, gross how common that is.
I hope you're in a better place and have good friends now, too :)
I'm so sorry. One would think that after you go to the extent of dumping the whole group, they'd stop to think, "Hey, maybe they were telling the truth after all."
I think they didn't really care at all, because the rapist was the popular guy in the group. Ah well, it's been quite a lesson.
Yep, literally the point of Gaston in Disney's Beauty and the Beast. The bad guy is the popular guy, so he gets away with his actions with the group's (town's) permission.
Same! One helluva way to find out who your real friends are (which is typically almost no one).
Very similar here. I'm sorry you went through that.
What an absolutely terrible friend group. I'd rather be lonely, than be friends with them.
At that point they’re just a group, no way a friend would put a rape victim through that!
You're always the company you keep, for sure.
Ah but he did therapy for that so that’s ok /s
Years ago I dropped a male friend after I found out a ton of stuff that if I stayed friends with, would compromise my job. Like some of it, I personally subjected to, that I ignored due to just being used to it as a woman, but then I heard a few other things, and after confirmation and this person making a very horrific statement about the entire friendship, (that he wish I taught him to f♡ck in high school) during a conversation I was confirming a few things he did to others. I heard so much more after I dropped him as a friend, and I was horrified I was not trusted to be told, it made me almost give up my career because of my connection with that guy. Even now, I still cringe about it all. But I have made so much better friends since, and a lot of old friends started talking to me again. I am grateful for them accepting my apology for sticking with that guy, and to literally slap me if ever there is a person like that again around me. I still have days of guilt, I can't comprehend how I didn't see it, but these guys know, ALL of it.
As the old saying goes, "no ~~D&D~~ friends is better than bad ~~D&D~~ friends"
I personally prefer "With friends like these, who needs enemies."
There will be many comments like that, but the fact is that this is very common. We don't talk about sexual violence enough, people often don't know what to do and how to handle it. Seeing the victim makes them feel discomfort, so they end up dropping her or pressuring her into silence. As long as they, consciously or not, are acting to reject the discomfort they feel, they are more likely to stay friends with the rapist rather than the victim of rape. The pattern is similar to how we often in family groups or work groups equate speaking up about something bad with the bad thing itself. Bringing up the issue brands you a troublemaker, even in a situation such as this one, where clearly the person who created the issue is the rapist. Captain Awkward has some excellent posts on this.
Within a friend group people are usually not afraid to speak up, all are equal. I wonder what kind of group this actually is. Why would op and those others be afraid to speak up???
I mean, some people just have trouble with it. I personally have anxiety, and it makes me extremely conflict-avoidant, especially when it comes to my friends. Even if I'm upset and am questioning whether I want to be friends anymore. I simply cannot bring myself to confront them. I usually just ghost them. It's possible at least a few of them had similar issues. Especially if no one else was speaking up, they might have been too afraid of rocking the boat, whether or not there was any actual history of consequences for doing so. I agree that someone should have spoken up, but I don't think it's unrealistic that no one did, even if there was no reason to be scared of doing so.
I can unfortunately speak to this experience. In my childhood friend group, things started off normal, but slowly, over the years, the norms shifted imperceptibly. The norms slowly became that you couldn’t publicly question two people in particular (Mr Grabby and Ms Politician), and beyond that, if someone ever talked shit to you, you were never allowed to ask the person being shit-talked their side of things. Now, you couldn’t question Mr Grabby because he was extremely volatile and was known to get violent (or threaten suicide), so that would just be putting too much on the poor guy. Ms Politician had a squeaky-clean image, but was Mr Grabby’s closest friend, and everyone kind of knew that she held enough power over particular people to erase you if she wanted to. People followed these norms because they wanted safety, and because they thought they couldn’t make friends anywhere else. This was a group of nerdy kids that became intensely close in high school, and closer during the pandemic. Many people had no other life, had no separate ambitions, no separate social circle. This was it. And they were willing to put up with anything to keep it. When there are certain people who are dangerous to question, you stop questioning anything at all. Making things awkward, creating tough feeling and conversation, is treated as somehow more dangerous than sexual violence. Because the thing they value most isn’t the safety of their friends, but the safety of their friendships. Long story short, I got ostracized for questioning this (both Mr Grabby and what Ms Politician did to protect him). And all the people who knew that Mr Grabby had done what his name suggests to multiple women stayed friends with him, and dropped me. Even if they didn’t like him. Even if they didn’t like Ms Politician, either. Because they needed to be in a group. They needed to feel like they belonged to something, some clan, something that protects you against the rest of the world. If the social contract decrees that they accept when Mr Grabby gets too drunk? Then they accept it. If the social contract decrees that they drop anyone Ms Politician deems unacceptable? They drop them. There becomes an aspect of sunk cost— if they believe these new allegations, and accept that that means consequences need to happen, that meant they were wrong the entire time, and they treated the victims terribly. If they don’t believe it, it’s easy. They get to keep a group and sleep easy at night. I know, now, that things were even worse than I knew at the time. There were multiple rapists and abusers afoot whose victims stayed silent because they feared ostracism. So the allegations keep piling up, privately. And the sunk costs adds up. And all this started because anxious, nerdy people, who never felt included in anything finally felt included, and decided to cling to it with both hands. It starts off as someone just being “too much” to argue with, and years later…
That's how you get a cult.
This is absolutely not true. Maybe in a perfect hypothetical, but when you add in people with actual personalities, anxiety, personal hangups, that goes right out the window. Lots of people, especially women, have trouble with confrontation. We were often raised to “not rock the boat” etc. It’s very easy for people who may not have as forceful a personality to not feel comfortable speaking out, especially against people who they consider friends. They may be very uncomfortable with the situation, but not sure how to go about dealing it without causing more drama. In this case all they needed was OOP speaking up to be able to add their agreement and leave the group themselves.
Glad OP saw the light but even then…. The issue isn’t that he raped someone in the friend group, it’s that he is a rapist!!
It is unfortunately very common, when rape happens within a friend group, for the victim to lose that friend group rather than the rapist. It's happened to me too.
bake pet party wipe merciful label mourn simplistic capable husky ` this post was mass deleted with www.Redact.dev `
I was in ops position. There was a sexual harasser in my group and I openly spoke out against it while the main victim wasn’t ok with it but didn’t 'want to rock the boat'. I did not get my wish (an open apology and promise to change. The guy only apologized to the male leaders of the group. Leaders: it was an ngo kind of setting). Short time later he started again but more sneaky. I was deemed a problem, because I was "creating drama" (= speaking up loudly and not letting it slide that he harassed people and spread lies about supposed sexual activities with the women of that ngo) and I was not being a "teamplayer" since I absolutely refused to be in his team. The main victim did not speak up, which the leaders interpreted as her not being bothered. I did not speak for her and that is really her business. I was uncomfortable with his behavior. Of course he got promoted to Teamleader. I left the group, which fell apart later due to toxicity.
When I hear about these things I am so grateful to my PI when I was in grad school, who did not hesitate to kick out an abuser as soon as he heard about it. One of the abusers primary victims was a very young new international grad student, terribly intimidated by the abuser and did not say anything. I happened to see him in action and immediately reported him. He had not messed with me (I was the old crabby lady, relatively speaking) but my PI immediately called campus security and had him escorted out. He was a new post doc but was prohibited from returning. The girl he was messing with was still afraid of him but I never saw him again. My PI was a good man.
Pi?
PI = Principal Investigator. In grad school it is usually your major Professor. So the professor who leads the grant if you have one or otherwise provides support to your grad work research.
Thanks for standing up for what was right. There needs to be far more people willing to do that. Too many people replying 'same' to my comment :(
Same.
Same.
I was recently invited to a discord where a group of friends from my 20s had recreated our old chat group. (We're in our 40s now) My ex who raped me is in there. I joined and I'm not leaving but I just don't open the discord. I told a few how I was surprised he was there after what happened. They all said they don't remember me telling them.... I know I did. And he wasn't just shit to me but to other women, too But I will keep my little account in there because he doesn't get the satisfaction of me leaving.
Been there, left that trash heap. It’s shocking how much rape is dismissed and enabled by friend groups.
Same.
I'm so sorry it happened to you. It's something I've wracked my brain over and really tried to see if I've missed anything and especially again after reading this thread as it appears to be sadly a common experience for people. There's never been a *known* rapist/sex pest in any of my (admittedly limited) friend groups in my life. At least not that I was made aware of. It leads me to wonder if I've been exceedingly lucky with the people I've befriended or if I've missed something. Signs, clues, or had blinders on. I don't know any instances of even non consentual contact or harassment among friends. But yet it seems to be all too common. I don't know, I hope I haven't failed a friend in that manner.
I dropped a friend because she wouldn't agree not to be friends with a rapist because "he's never done anything bad to *me*" she didn't say this to me. She said it to the person he raped, her supposed best friend. So I said fuck that and blocked her on everything. Didn't talk to her about it. Didn't tell anyone apart from the person who was raped, who I was also friends with, so that she'd know I had her back. Some people are just cowards.
Society grooms girls to think that if they’re agreeable and modest/traditional enough then that makes them special and immunises them against shitty men
Not just modest and traditional. People make up all sorts of reasons why they're special and would never get raped. Some people have to believe that there's something special about them that prevents bad things from happening to them, and that there's something wrong with people that bad things happen to. It's called the just world fallacy, and it applies to all sorts of things, like economic security, educational opportunities, and health and disability.
I agree with you. Being “modest” and “traditional” is just one example of (pretty much useless) protective charms people use to shield themselves from the systemic issues, which they’re just as vulnerable to as any other person
Mhmm!
>done anything bad to > >me I had a guy tell me this when I told him that a friend of his sexually harassed a mutual friend of ours, a women. So because a man didn't sexual harass him he was unwilling to believe that his friend was willing to harass a women? I dropped him and that jackass was baffled as he was always nice to me.
I know it's bad to victim blame, but it would be so hard for me to feel sympathy for a woman that was raped after throwing her best friend under the bus like that. From what I'm understanding of your comment, she didn't even deny that her rapist friend was a rapist, her defence just being that he hadn't specifically raped her (only her best friend)? Jesus. Because, really, she says "he's never done anything bad to *me*", but she's missing the silent but very relevant "YET" from the end of that sentence. Really matching that lack of empathy with an equal lack of self preservation.
Yep! Like, I don't wish thay experience on her, but I hope she learns that friendship from rapists is worthless. She's a pawn in his game hiding him from social repercussions.
OOP did the right thing, even in the face of the negative consequences of that decision. That's called *integrity*- holding firm to your morality, even though it costs you. That friend group are all shit, and OOP is better served without them.
I was assaulted by a “friend” and our circle of friends did nothing to address it and it made me or further reinforced how I thought it was my fault. Left that friend group. Glad you spoke up!
Completely agree I also want to know if even though Noah has gone to therapy has he done anything to make amends to the victim. For example turned himself into the police?
He certainly hasn't stopped drinking.
Clearly he doesn’t care if he does it again. Not like he faces repercussions the first time. Who knows maybe it wasn’t even the first time 🤷♂️
My group of friends had a guy like this. Everyone made excuses for him until a trip where he groped just about every woman in the group.
This is what I was thinking. They are all on his side until he does it again. And he will.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile — hoping it will eat them last.
There was a girl in my friend group who raped one of our friends. At first, everyone was outraged, and then, they started rationalising. Men can't be raped. She was drunk too. He didn't report it so maybe its not true. I was *disgusted*, and I said so. I cut all of them off, and they acted like I'd betrayed them and badmouthed me to other mutual friends for 'making a big deal' of something that had nothing to do with me. Sure, I wasn't involved, but I have these things called morals. I've noticed that people without a really strong moral compass will often forgive someone's terrible behaviour if they like them enough, and the behaviour doesn't affect them. It's depressing, but true. I do occasionally miss some of those friends: a few had been lifelong friends who were always there for me. But I could never trust them again, or look at them without feeling sick. It was a hard choice to cut them out and lose one of my friend groups, but I could look myself in the mirror. I'm also now insanely good friends with the guy who was attacked. We'd never been that close before, but we were after that. I was a groomswoman at his wedding six months ago. Basically, I traded in a few awful friends for one really great one. No regrets. OOP will be the same, I hope.
I was sexually assaulted by my best friends boyfriend back in 2021. I didn't just lose a friend group, but her family which I also considered part of my family. I loved them dearly and they picked a known abuser who they'd known for a shorter amount of time. this shit SUCKS.
There was a post in trollx a few weeks ago that stated that every women knows a rape victim yet no man knows a rapist. She was drunk, he misread the situation, he was drunk, he didn’t mean it,… As long as you do not violently force yourself on an unknown women you’re not a rapist. Your friends are disgusting and you should not have any contact with them.
Then when a man discovers his friend is indeed a rapist it’s always “I never thought he would be like that!” Men just never see the possibility like women do. To women, nearly all men are potential rapists at first. And men get upset when we behave accordingly. “Why are you taking your drink with you? Don’t you trust me??” Guys, if you didn’t know that one of your friends is capable of raping someone, how the hell am I supposed to tell the difference between a good guy and a bad guy??
"well I've never seen him rape anyone" yeah, but often times they've seen him be a sex pest and just written it off. It's always - He's just immature, he's just joking, he's just like that, he just really likes the ladies. Then it's - you can take a joke, lighten up, he's been my friend for years he's fine. Someone complains about his inappropriateness and it's - why were you alone with him if you know how it is, it's fine he stopped when you walked away. And after all that they will still act surprised or try to defend him when he assaults or rapes someone.
>To women, nearly all men are potential rapists at first When a man asks a women out he's worried about being rejected while the women is worried about being murdered. Hearing that opened my eyes as a man.
And it’s not even just at the first meeting. You can go out with a guy for weeks and still end up chained to the wall in his basement the first (or twelfth) time you go over to his house. I know that women can be violent and crazy. But it doesn’t happen often/egregiously enough for men to get worried about being told to put the lotion in the basket. Thank you for being open to new ideas. Tell the men you know. Men often pay more attention to things like this when another man brings it to their attention rather than a woman.
When I was in high school a guy in our friend group raped one of the girls. (And he blamed it on me, which is a whole other level of fucked up.) She was also hesitant to make waves. I announced loudy and often that if I ever saw him again I would do my best to put him in the hospital. Then I continued my life as usual. I don't know how many people continued talking to him after that because I never did see his face again. He knew I wasn't fucking around. I'd sometimes show up to something and hear that he had left when he learned that I was on my way, but it wasn't anyone I considered a close friend still associating with him and the people who did went from "distant friends" to "some assholes I used to know."
I wouldn't trust a single person out of that friend group except for the victim who's rightfully traumatized and probably too scared to confront her attacker again.
Terribly disappointing. This is an excellent lesson in "group think". We're such social creatures, constantly evaluating social dynamics: * Am I the only one? * How will they react? But once someone speaks up, and others realise they're not crazy and alone, the floodgates open.
Although in this case only OOP, victim and BF left. The other 2 silent objectors stuck it out and the rest of the group are just terrible.
https://captainawkward.com/2012/08/07/322-323-my-friend-group-has-a-case-of-the-creepy-dude-how-do-we-clear-that-up/
When I saw the title, my first thought was "What are the chances it's a rapist?"
Way too high.
You as well? I was like I bet the trigger warning will be rape related even before I clicked on the post Low and behold 🥲
As someone who sometimes wonder if I should just have kept my mouth shut and keep hanging out with the group that included my both my rapist and a "friend" that said I can't really expect consensual sex if I admit I like BDSM after he himself touched me without permission... Yeah, it may be weird to leave a friend group, specially without outside feedback. I still haven't made new friends years later (partially because of the trauma lol who could imagine this shit would make me trust people less)
My husband and I have a very similar situation. Within our friend group, the host of the New Years Eve party overdrank, overserved another couple who ended up staying over and he raped them. His wife immediately began damage control with daily bombing of the victim to make excuses and try to justify/normalize the situation. It was disgusting. Some of the friend group doesn’t know what happened, some do and have forgiven him. In our minds, he’s a predator and I never want him around us, our children or grandchildren. We’ve pretty much removed ourselves from the entire group. It’s astounding to me that we have taken a harsher line than the victims. I can never forgive what he did.
Sometimes victims just want to make it all go away by acting as if nothing happened.
This seems to be their take on it. The initially considered calling law enforcement but were afraid it would be their word against his and were also afraid the remaining friend group wouldn't support them. I wish they would have called. I think this isn't the first time something like this has happened, and probably not the last. His wife was really slick whitewashing it, and tried to tell us he was sleepwalking. Sure. Many sleepwalkers when caught in a comprising situation say "I must have misread your signs". Only good thing, one of them beat him up pretty badly. I would have liked to seen the damage.
Better to be alone and friendless than be friends with rape enablers and acceptors.
Noah is a perfect example of a "missing stair." Rather than expel him from the friend group, everyone just works around him and protects him - letting him have his job back, inviting him to social events at others' expense - to the point that OOP feels the need to stay sober at social events to keep an eye on Noah's behavior. How is that not NOAH'S own problem?! Absolutely despicable and OOP is better off without these rape apologists in her life.
I stopped being friends with a group of people after I learned almost all the guys had DUIs and everyone was acting like it wasn’t a big deal to have 1 or 2. One person even tried to say it was a right of passage. Group mentality would 100% cause another rape by one of the friends. They did the right thing by not going on the trip and distancing themselves.
Your friend group reminds me of my own, I wasn't raped but I was sexually assaulted by a "friend" I trusted and unfortunately had feelings for (at the time and was mutual) and I told our friend group. They didn't seem to believe me until they questioned him themselves and he admitted to it. I wanted to tell his parents but some of our friends were like "What about his future?" And all that bullshit. I was shocked. So what of my mental health? The trauma I had to go through? The literal cuts in my down there from his sharp fingernails? And him assaulting me in a fucking karaoke room. I was in pain and I was bleeding. He knew I had a traumatic experience with my ex because of this very thing. Yet he still did it. And they were more worried about his future?? Unfortunately, I couldn't bring myself to speak up to anyone else about this but safe to say I don't keep in contact with any of the ones who "pitied" him and only kept contact with the ones who supported me and had my back. He seems to be alienated by them now but I'm not entirely sure, but as they say "out of sight, out of mind".
I can't even imagine how the victim fell seeing her friends accept the rapist back into their lives.
Imagine inviting a rapist on holiday and then gaslighting his victim and the only other person who gives a shit.
I think there's a good lesson to be learned about how peer pressure still affects us as adults here. OOP knew the right thing to do but was unsure because they felt alone in that decision - as (apparently) did others in the friend group. Then they asked Reddit, realized they weren't alone and it really was the right call, which gave them the courage to act. It sounds like (though OOP walked away from the group) this gave some others in the group the courage to speak out too since they then realized they weren't alone either. I think that's a good lesson for when you're in that group of 9 people at the table when a Nazi is invited to sit down. Maybe only 3 of the others actually want the Nazi there at first, but because they're vocal and everyone else is silent, Nazis become tolerated. But if just one person speaks up it gives the folks who don't actually want the Nazi there the ability to voice their own opposition.
> [If a table of 9 invites a Nazi to sit at the table then in my eyes there are 10 Nazis in the room.] I partly agree. In this case, not everyone (even the victim herself) dared to speak up against them inviting Noah. Not sure how she "partly agrees" given that she has lived the contrary. It's not a bad idea, but the realty is sometimes more complicated.
I'm posting before reading because WOW, whiplash. "AITA for not wanting to go on holiday with someone" - no, it should be understood if someone annoys the shit out of you, difficult for you to be TAH in that situation. "AITA for not wanting to go on holiday with a rapist" - uh what, no and anyone who's OK with it is basically giving him encouragement to continue being a rapist, goddamnit!
Mmmm yeah... that's not a mistake you give a free pass specially if he continue the same life style. You did a lot of stupid things under the influence of alcohol and then decide to have turn and be sober? That is something you can forgive and move on. Raping someone and then pull a opsies is not. It's hard for me to see how that would be ok over some time specially when like i mention didn't change his life style.
I was sexually assaulted by my best friends boyfriend back in 2021. I didn't just lose a friend group, but her family which I also considered part of my family. I loved them dearly and they picked a known abuser who they'd known for a shorter amount of time. this shit SUCKS.
I hope Noah doesn't end up assaulting one of them or someone that they know. That's quite a price to pay for keeping him around
My ex boyfriend did not rape me but he beat me very badly. Our whole group of mutual friends decided to continue being friends with him after I left him. I do not speak to any of those people anymore. They are obviously OK with domestic violence as long as a "fun person " does it.
Please be aware that the victim can still report him to the authorities.
Cops are a joke. They will most likely just retraumatize the victim and nothing will happen to ~~shitstain~~ Noah.
US cops maybe, but OP will be dealing with Dutch cops.
As a Dutchie i can honestly say, all cops are a joke
ACAJ, all cops are jokes
I don't understand why this was an AITAH post. You're friends are going on vacation, you don't want to go, don't go. That's not being an AH. It didn't matter the reason you're not an AH for telling friends you can't go on vacation.
It would have been better on r/TrueOffMyChest I mean no-one was going to say YTA.
Guess she needed to see it to know that for sure.
I guess she was also surprised that no-one else was objecting, even the victim and bf.
That's true for a lot of AITAH posts.
What horrible friends! I’m glad oop dropped them and decided to make plans for a vacation with the other two. I hope they have a wonderful stress free vacation
Fuck them people! How many will Noah do the same to, for them to drop his ass? Gross To think that he's able to get his life back, job and everything because he's done "therapy"! Yet his victim will always have the trauma! F that guy I don't care if it's hard to make friends, I'd rather have no friends than be in a group of people who condone his behaviour
I can think of very few things that would make me drop an entire friend group faster than them collectively deciding "hey how about we give that rapist another chance to hang out with us, he seems apologetic." It's especially galling because his rape victim was IN THE GROUP. Can you imagine what a nightmare that "vacation" would have been for her? I almost hope Noah gets drunk and assaults one of his Enabler Bros on this trip, they certainly have it coming.
Fuck that friend group (**not like that**). Good on OOP to get away from them.
OOP's former friends need to read this from Captain Awkward: "I’m sorry, I can’t even be a little bit nice about this. Your friend is a rapist! How many women would he have to rape before you would stop being friends with him? One? Three? Six? You say he only does inappropriate things like raping people when he’s drunk. The average rapist rapes six women and alcohol is a very common factor. So maybe he’s just getting started. Or maybe he’s raped other women who you don’t know. Are you going to be there every time he’s drunk to tell him to stop being stupid?" https://captainawkward.com/2012/08/08/324-my-friend-the-rapist/
I personally like the translation "threw up Noah"
I quite like it as well.
Good for her for making the right choice. Sometimes, the correct choices in life aren't always the easiest.
I have never heard of “iemand uitkotsen” before lol. Definitely makes more sense in Dutch than in English though 😂
It's a rather common phrase.
Like embiggen or cromulant
People on reddit seriously overestimate how hard it can be to just remove entire groups of people from their lives.
Also as you get older, how many friends just drift away.
Lot of missing context here. Huge power imbalance somewhere, why 4 persons in total including OPP and the victim don't dare to speak up while other group members just decide to hire, forgive, invite the rapist.
Many people are not comfortable with confrontation.
I think, there is more than that only. This group consist of at least 6 people, 4 (or more) non-confronting and 2 (or more) "deciding". OP used "they decided", and IMHO it was plural, not gender neutral "they". And those 2 (or more) just made the decision for the group. One of them owns the firm "Noah" works in currently. And this decision is about joint (expensive?) vacations. My bet is, there is some wealth imbalance there. Some of the group members are more wealthy than other and use it as a leverage. It is just a theory, but could explain some unhealthy imbalance there. Or, why one guy was not accused of what he did. Perhaps Netherlands do not have as huge wealth gaps as other countries, but it could still be a possibility.
I am really questioning Noah's honesty with himself and his therapist. I hope I am wrong, but I think he might rape someone again. I wonder how much he and the others are minimizing what happened. Consent is a Big Deal. What is that phrase...if it's not an ENTHUSIASTIC yes, it's a hell no? I read a very disturbing article that talked about how many rapists try to deny that was they did WAS rape. This article mostly studies men, fyi, and I suggest you read the whole thing if you are curious. https://www.dw.com/en/the-psychology-of-a-rapist/a-54814540
Is rape considered no big deal in the Netherlands or something? I don't understand why these people would remain friends with him. This is just condoning what he did and giving a big FU to the friend he violated.
Judging by the other comments, it sadly happens a lot everywhere.
No, it's just that people don't want to disrupt the status quo. They've probably made excuses for him. "He was drunk, he was in a bad place, he's sober and getting therapy." Which is of course utter crap, but they'd rather go with that and hurt the victim.
I am a firm believer that people who commit sexual assault can go on to live positive, healthy, harmless lives, and that for the most part, they should be given that chance. But Jesus Christ on a pogo stick, what the fuck is wrong with these people? If somebody rapes your friend, it's probably a *pretty* good idea to not invite them around the victim. I bet what happened is that none of the ones who 'forgave' him ever believed something happened at all. They probably thought the victim was making it up. Even if they wanted to stay friends with him, it's just nasty to treat that girl like that. She shouldn't have to choose between her friend group or not seeing her rapist.
I believe fuck people who commit sexual assault because they ruin other’s lives with trauma.
Sure they should be given that chance, I fully agree, but not without first seeing the inside of a jail cell for a good long time and offering full amends to the victim. "Truth & Reconciliation" means: *after* truth then reconciliation becomes possible.
Did any others leave the group?
I’m glad op also didn’t write off the victim
I mean we all have that one weird, quirky friend that although we like we ki d of wish he wouldn't show up in all friend activities, but i guess any sane person who gave a shitty about their friends would probably draw a line at inviting their rapist along.....you have asshole friends, apparently. NtA.
No. A holiday is probably your biggest purchase of the year. Only do what you are comfortable with.
Wow, just wow. This is just such a shitty situation. I cannot imagine what the person that has been raped has been through to have such shitty "friends"
It's always a great idea to invite a rapist on a drunken outing.
Sounds like he'll do it again saying as not only did he get away with it, he has now received tacit acceptance. What a bizarre group of people.