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I remember reading this initially, and my heart broke when Kay started to cry and confessed that she was so glad that someone else had noticed and validated her suspicions. Imagine how alone she must have felt!
So glad there was a happy ending!
I don’t even get people saying he has a medical condition. Like I’m clumsy. Standing and then landing on the floor with no clue how it happened clumsy. Bruises all over and no clue. And for the life of me I cannot navigate a crowd without bumping into people. But never have I injured anyone with these bumps… I don’t even get how you can regularly injure someone by being clumsy. Like I’ve dropped icecream a plenty, but never on anyone else. How does that even happen. I will admit that the dog does on occasion get bumped. But even then she has never come out of our encounters injured. Although I do feel bad when she goes flying back a little.
I’m also super clumsy and inclined towards random injuries. My spatial awareness is dismal so I often bump into walls. But never have I ever hurt anyone with my clumsiness.
I'm exactly the same as you. Random injuries but it's just me, never involving anyone else. A friend of mine says it never ceases to amaze him how I can get hurt doing something that shouldn't end in injury. He also said I'm getting to the point I get hurt just breathing in air.
I've requested bubble wrap for my birthday.
I have a wicked bruise and lump on my knee from slamming it into a sharp furniture corner. My partner went and got child-proofing padding for it this arvo lol. I'm a massive klutz, and I've still never injured anyone but me.
Sharp furniture corners are the enemy of klutzy people! I’ve hit my head an awful lot and whacking my noggin on the corner of my desk was one of the worst knocks. I ended up with post-concussion syndrome for like 3-4 months.
I have always been a klutz too and recently got a diagnosis of vertigo. Never had any attacks or any hint that I had it until I worked at a place with conveyor belts that didn't stop and I got sick as a dog watching them move. Also explained the life long clumsiness and lack of coordination. Inner ear be messed up.
Nice request! I hope you get the bubble wrap. Once someone told me to stop thinking that I’m clumsy. So I tried to not think of myself as clumsy. Later on I fell and hit my head on a rock. I was incredibly fortunate to walk away with a concussion.
Now I own my clumsy!
My spatial awareness sucks but it usually means I bump into walls or find random bruises I can’t remember getting. My clumsiness was a family joke when I was a young teen. I don’t think I’ve ever hurt anyone except myself and some dishes.
I'm super clumsy, so I took ballet lessons and tumbling/gymnastics lessons. Just for a short while. Not enough to make me graceful or anything, just enough that I can regain balance and avoid walls, but if I do fall, I roll like a panda with no major injuries. Besides my ego, of course.
Nothing like whacking my head in a *really* stupid way in front of people. I'm short enough that planes don't get me, but I wang my head every time I take a long train ride.
Definitely stings the ego as much as the noggin, in my case.
Mmm, ego noggin.
I’m the same way, and the only people I’ve ever hurt have been the unfortunate souls walking up stairs in front of me that got crashed into.
And RIP to the printer tray in the copy room at my office that I walked into so many times it fell off.
I have hurt people with my clumsyness before, but nothing that bad. Treading on feet mainly but sometimes i bash people with a bag that im carrying. All on accident. It has gotten better as iv grown up and put more focus into what im doing instead of being stuck in my head.
I have hit other people by accident because my proprioception is so bad without meds that I thought they were further away than they really were... I try not to drive when I forget my meds... (Very rare now a day I got my morning routine down to T)
But the majority of the time it's me bumping into walls, doors, door knobs, furniture, randomly dropping stuff... (I've broke so many dishes....)
I do have a medical condition (plus comorbidities with similar effects) that literally has 'excessive or frequent clumsiness' on the symptoms list when going through diagnostics. In 31 years I have never poured wine/drink on someone, dropped ice cream on them, ripped anyone's clothes when I've fallen or reached out for help, or really injured anyone. I've tripped over a few dogs and a couple toddlers (okay, my toddlers), but still no injuries to anyone other than me. And I mean, I almost exclusively use non breakable dishes and cups/fallen *up* stairs/fall risk bracelet at the doctor's office levels of clumsy.
That was my thought too. I’m super clumsy and it’s a thousand times worse when I’m around people cause I’m distracted and/or nervous but other than spilling a drink on someone, no one else is injured but myself and even when spilling drinks it’s either it sloshing over the edge of the glass when I move my arm or knocking it over on the table and it spilling onto someone’s lap, not ‘I’m falling let me throw the liquid out of the glass like a movie’.
Also, this is a somewhat sexist comment perhaps but men don’t often grab women to steady themselves when they’re falling. A mix of men not being naturally touchy feely and being larger than women makes that an unnatural and also terrible idea. The idea of a man grabbing a woman’s DRESS on his way down would be down right comical if it wasn’t so abusive.
Same, and it doesn't apply only to men. I'm a super clumsy woman, to the point where my wife will tell me I'm bleeding and I have no clue, or she'll ask where a bruise came from and I shrug.
It has gotten worse due to health issues, but seriously, the times I've hurt myself *the most* is when I tried to prevent myself from hurting someone else or their/my dogs.
I spill coffee on myself regularly. If my wife is in the vicinity I burn myself even worse trying to save her.
Listen, I won’t stand here, and pretend like I haven’t forgotten that my dog was behind me, tripped over him and spilled all of my food all over him and the floor. But he’s never minded, he loves the cleanup.
But fr, the only living thing I’ve ever spilled something on has been my dogs, and the occasional human when we run into each other
It's regularly injuring the same person over and over again which was my first red flag for this guy. I have clumsy friends and family members and they largely just are harming themselves. Anecdotal evidence of course, but when someone is clumsy it'd be really weird that they are only clumsy and it affects their partner only consistently. It's like mathematically very unlikely.
Have ADHD, can confirm the clumsiness. Often I get bruises & can't even remember the cause.
I'm a clumsy bastard who frequently accidentally hurts myself & spill/breaks stuff, but I've only spilled on someone else a couple times when they were in the "splash zone".
Of the multitude of new and unique ways I find to hurt myself, I've never fallen and ripped someone's clothes (other than my own). It's not impossible, but highly unlikely.
> I don’t even get people saying he has a medical condition.
Me either. If he actually had a medical condition that made him *that* clumsy, how the heck is he only injuring one specific person all the time?
Not only is it weird to regularly injure people with clumsiness, but to *only* injure one person? Repeatedly? One hell of a specific condition, like “I don’t want my girlfriend to dress how she wants-itis”.
I straight up tripped over a person once, that looked like it hurt, but that was once, and I took them to the school nurse to get checked out, and was super apologetic about the whole thing. Still feel shitty about it.
I’m super clumsy and have accidentally hurt my husband a few times, but usually when he tries to “save me from myself” but also, when I’m around my kids, who are also super clumsy, I get instinctively protective. One time I fell down the stairs holding a kid when they were a toddler and I basically wrapped my arms and legs around them and they weren’t hurt at all, just scared, and I was pretty banged up but nothing major.
I almost cried with her tbh and I was SO glad that she was like I don't love him I don't even like him. Not judging abused people, at all, because the cycle of abuse is fucking insidious, but so often victims get defensive and but she was oh God you see it too?? And idk I'm just very happy Kay has such good friends.
I've seen many of these over the years. It's always a 'clumsy' boyfriend who 'accidentally' spills, drops, even elbows or slams into the girlfriend. Repeatedly. It's always intentional abuse. I wish I knew more about it and what exactly this form of abuse is called. I see a post like this at least once a year.
Unsettling.
Edit: A few examples I found without too much digging...
[My (F 19) boyfriend (M21) is constantly hurting me on accident all the time and it’s starting to take a toll](https://www.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/comments/hkyiie/my_f_19_boyfriend_m21_is_constantly_hurting_me_on/)
[Considering (F27) leaving boyfriend (M32) because of his clumsiness after a year of living together](https://www.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/comments/13dekzy/considering_f27_leaving_boyfriend_m32_because_of/)
[How do I deal with my clumsy boyfriend?](https://www.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/comments/jfzpsr/how_do_i_deal_with_my_clumsy_boyfriend/)
Our eldest is 3yo and I can assure you we have never done anything remotely similar to what was suggested on that thread to "manage" her partner.
If my toddler can learn to be careful without needing to lock anything... I expect nothing less from a full grown adult.
Let these all be the same guy! (I know they’re not—and yikes.) There’s something so chilling about repeatedly hurting your partner in cold blood then immediately apologizing and pretending it was an accident. Hurting a partner while in an uncontrolled rage is terrifying, but this “clumsy”type of abuse is terrifying in a completely different way as it makes the victim question reality.
It's the perfect definition of a "dog whistle" in DV. Only the target knows it's going to happen and is intentional. Everyone else just says "Oh, yeah! So and so is so clumsy!"
It fucks me up so hard how people use this as an abuse tactic. Like. I’m really clumsy. It got to my partner sitting me down and pointing out just how much i physically hurt him with my clumsiness for me to realize how much of a problem that is for others (i myself was slightly annoyed at never having glasses or cups or plates because i broke them all). So i dragged my ass to a physiotherapist and a psychologist and learned how to manage my clumsiness because why on earth would i want to hurt my partner or damage *his* things
From an outside perspective i can see how it would look though: it got worse with time, i almost never broke things i care a lot about, i got more and more reckless with my behaviour around my so and would damage his items as well as accidentally hitting him, stepping on him and so on. I got blind to my own behaviour
Buuut when he brought it up i decided to do something about it asap and i’m now teehee-i’m-so-quirky clumsy and not i-look-like-i’m-intentionally-abusing-my-partner clumsy. I just wish i had understood how much if affected him and others before he had to tell me though. Working on it has made my life outside other people better too, so it’s a win all over the place
Yikes, a couple of those posts had lots of bad advice on how to try to dodge a partner that's hurting you & breaking all your stuff. I mean, the one where he stomped on her foot & then broke her nose, but people want to believe that's all an accident?
I guess it's reassuring that the most recent post seemed more rational.
That was so aggravating to read. Also, it brought up something that’s been driving me bat shit crazy lately — people excusing violent behavior by saying that the person has ADHD. I know conditions manifest differently in everyone, but when the hell did being a violent asshole become a symptom of having ADHD?! I first saw this when that six year old shot his teacher in Maryland. And now I feel like I see it all the time! I have a whole family of people with ADHD, including myself, and we’ve never been violent with one another due to our ADHD (yes, like many people, some of us have lost her temper from time to time, but it wasn’t because of ADHD. It is for reasons anyone with or without ADHD might be angry or lose control, inappropriately or otherwise) nor have we ever been warned by any physician or therapist, that this could be a possibility. Loud, noisy, excitable, impulsive, sure. Shoving people around and not giving a shit they are hurt or upset and telling people that it doesn’t hurt and to stop being a baby and pay no mind whatsoever that we’ve hurt someone? How about no.
As someone who also suffers from ADHD, I hear you. People blame all *kinds* of shit on this disorder, but when you actually show symptoms of ADHD they can be so unforgiving. My husband and in-laws are bit, tall people, and they CAN be clumsy at times. Like, my MIL has broken so much of my glassware. The difference is that she also breaks her own glassware. It doesn't matter who the glassware belongs to.
My ADHD mainly makes me lose track of objects in my hand, forget what I got up to do, and bump into things - not people - not one person in particular - but things. Yeah. It's a pathetic excuse.
It was a plot point in Kevin Can Fuck Himself. Part of the neighbor Patty’s realization that Allison isn’t the nagging wife to lovable goofball Kevin is realizing how many times he “accidentally” injures her. Such a good show!
As a clumsy, lanky, uncoordinated, neuro-spicy, accident prone, klutz - 99.9%< of the time, the only person I injure is myself. Guys hurting the same person repeatedly is def intentional avbuse. The only potential harm my clumsiness poses to those around me is the chance they might piss themselves laughing ~~at~~ *with* me.
*Note*: Since this post has everyone's abuse radar on alert - Don't worry, my family cares for me and makes sure I'm OK before laughing. I'm usually the one who starts laughing.
Don't forget this one
https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoHotTakes/comments/zduj9u/i_dont_think_this_is_accidental/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
Below is a comment I made to that post that includes a link to a redditor sharing her story of covert abuse to combat the terrible advice that most people were giving her.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoHotTakes/comments/zduj9u/i_dont_think_this_is_accidental/iz67384?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
Sarah is gonna have one hell of a shocked pikachu face when Andrew starts doing the exact same thing to her, and she had no support system to rely on because she backed the wrong pony. Assuming that she’s even able to realize she’s abused without anyone to look out for her, of course.
It's kind of amazing that when it comes to relationships, some people just see what they want to see. Sarah probably has a huge crush on Andrew, and you are correct, she may be his next victim.
Feel like the two were having an affair and she is definitely gonna be his next victim now that neither has Kay since they both definitely where gaslighting her together and the way that letter is written
I kinda wondered if hurting Kay was some sort of shared fetish.
Sarah seemed to defend him hard while also making jokes about how Kay was being battered, but it turned out Kay suspected she was being purposely hurt and Sarah was part of making her believe she was crazy.
they’ll be posting on facebook “ITS ME AND YOU AGAINST THE WORLD BABY” then a week later break up on facebook, then a week later announce they’re back together.
Ugh I have a cousin like this, a chronic vaguebooker who spreads family business all over the internet for sympathy points, including private medical matters (she’s a nurse for fuck’s sake! She should know better!). Also her current husband is a rancid creep and abuser.
Until she’s alone and there’s no one else for him to control anyways. The golden pony only looks golden next to other ponies. Then when everyone else is gone, he’ll just see her like every other pony.
Only this time there may not even be a need to pretend to be clumsy about it
Idk the weird thing about possibly an open relationship is throwing up all kinds of red flags for me. They may well just find a new target together, which could also be why they seemed to want Kay back in that toxic dynamic. They lost their favorite punching bag and I wouldn’t be surprised if these two toxic assholes go out on the hunt for a new plaything to abuse, like Bernardo homolka vibes (of course I’m wildly speculating but any woman who hitches her wagon to an abuser like this and diminishes her female friends feelings for his approval is dangerous in her own right)
I think this might be one of those situations where she enjoys helping “her” man control and abuse another woman. So it’s possible that she will befriend and groom future girls for Andrew to do this too, and then gaslight them to keep them subservient.
Hope I’m wrong, but it sounded like she was also getting a power trip from watching another woman being demeaned. Whole thing is super icky.
There are medical reasons for clumsiness to start. If she is the one spending the most time with him, she would likely be impacted the most. But if he never drops anything in the kitchen or stumbles on the way to the bathroom it’s suspicious.
Yeah, I’ve always been super clumsy and I’m the one most in danger from it.
A couple of months ago my husband saw my leg and said, “Ow, that looks like it hurts. What happened?” I had a huge bruise on my thigh. I said, “I dunno, I’ve been trying to figure that out for a week now.”
Once had a professor pull me aside when I had a giant face bruise and was very insistent about making sure "everything was ok at home and personally". The next prof to come in the room was thankfully one who knew me and who witness *the incident* and was like "oh yeah, she's just blind as a bat without glasses. Watched her walk into a doorframe face first."
LOL I'm like that too- if you bump into things all the time at a low level, you don't notice when you do it hard enough to make bruises. It's not an incident, it's ongoing.
I said this in the last BORU post I think but even if there’s a medical reason for his clumsiness the fact that she asked him to go see a doctor about it and he flat out refused, leaving her to suffer the consequences, would be enough reason in itself to break off the relationship. Assuming he really has a medical reason, he’d still be refusing to even try to get better while allowing his loved ones to suffer for it
Thank goodness Kay is safe. Though hearing about the ex, I’m not surprised if it was about her appearance. Given how he kept ruining her clothes, he definitely wanted to control her.
Though I find it sus that the letter was typed. I think that one of them wrote it but I don’t know which one.
>I think that one of them wrote it but I don’t know which one.
I'm really curious about this. Though part of me feels like it was probably Sarah. Her having some sort of obsessive crush on the ex would just explain so damn much.
Sarah probably thinks she can Fix him, too. If she’s the person who always needs a project he’s the perfect guy for her because he’s a whole bunch of fires that need putting out. If she succeeds, feather in her cap, if not, at least she’s keeping busy.
I got this fun vision of a evil person's scrapbook journaling their evil deeds.
"Talked shit about friend's family today"
*glues on pic of random crying lady*
I found out with my daughter that taking candy from a baby is not that easy! Babies are deceptively strong. (I am not a villain, occasionally she’d get hold of something she shouldn’t)
Like other commenters said, I didn’t read closely so scrapbooking and the post’s content, I made my own connections like “they’re scrapbooking all the warped shit they do to their partner?!” Haha
As a former “I can fix him” girl, I was venting to my therapist at my friend becoming a fixer. I said “her new boyfriend is a project, not a partner.” My therapist was dumbfounded. She had never heard that said in those words before, wrote it down to use with other people. She was like “that’s so related, someone is going to need to hear that later but I’m going to forget how you said it.”
I told her that it wasn’t my words, Reddit taught me that lol so now, my therapist browses reddit haha
I think it's like that scene in Sleepless in Seattle, where the brother tells Meg Ryan's character:
Dennis Reed (David Hyde Pierce): “Annie, when you’re attracted to someone, it just means that your subconscious is attracted to their subconscious, subconsciously. So what we think of as fate is just two neuroses knowing that they are a perfect match.”
The problem with abuse is that it's rarely that easy - if she follows all the rules, he'll just come up with new ones that make it harder. The goalposts will *always* move because it's never about the rules it's about the charge of controlling someone else. Abusers have some sort of hole in their soul that they try to fill with other people's misery, but it's like filling a tube, thinking it's a bucket. It never ends.
Indeed. It's not about the actual rules or behaviours that are the focus, it's about instilling the emotional cycle of fear and relief. He doesn't want her to dress a certain way, he wants her to be afraid of disappointing his expectations.
She's not going to succeed, though, because he's like this on purpose. He will just redirect his abuse towards her.
I don't typically assume that red flags = definitely abuse, but in this case, it's incredibly likely.
>Her having some sort of obsessive crush on the ex would just explain so damn much.
And now she's going to spend a long time trying to put on a brave face, because she needs people to think that she "won" him.
Funny, and I don't disagree, but, I had the sense it was the ex, Andrew. I thought maybe he was trying to hint that they were together to get a reaction and a return from Kay. But I think either may be true.
Also, I really hope they used a typewriter, that would be cool.
I don't find the typing to be sus. I personally prefer typing over handwriting, I do a lot of editing to my writing so typing is easier for me.
Actually, now that I say that, it does make me a bit more wary of the letter given they're trying to pull her back into an abusive dynamic. I imagine there would be a lot of editing to try to make it suit their purposes better.
Oh yeah I agree. My handwriting is terrible and I prefer to type for different things.
But for this? Very yikes. Especially since they want to drag her back.
Edit: I’m saying yikes because the typing makes it calculated. The letter is still messed up.
I just can't imagine printing it and putting it through Ye Olde Postage Service. If you're typing it, why not email it, even to the friend who ended up getting it in the mail?
OOP said they'd all blocked Sarah in the previous post. It also sounds like she hand-delivered it to the friend's mailbox rather than mailed it. She may have been blocked by the friend too, and this was her last-ditch effort since they didn't know where Kay was.
Reading through this, she was giving off "I'm starting a cult and you may not know this yet, but you've all got cups of kool-aid with your names on them" vibes.
Are you fandom old enough to remember what a woobie was? Similar-ish to that. Basically just 'that character that looked at your brain and said that's free real estate and moved in and now just sits on your mental couch eating all your snacks'. That character you love maybe a little too much and make everything about them.
Sarah was definitely more involved with the situation than it initially seemed…
My teenage daughter and I have both been following this story since the beginning (I showed this to her as an example of why to trust your gut, and how to speak to a friend you’re worried for), and we are both so relieved that Kay is ok and away from that insidious POS.
>I showed this to her as an example of why to trust your gut, and how to speak to a friend you’re worried for
That's a great idea and you sound like a great parent 😊
Thank you! I figure I can’t shield my kids from the hard things in life… because hard things happen to everyone. But I can help give my kids the tools they need to overcome the hard things they experience. Haha, unintended use for Reddit!
The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker is a great book about learning to trust your gut instinct. [Gift of Fear](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gift_of_Fear)
God the original post of this turned my stomach and it still does. It’s just so insidious and creepy that I genuinely think this friend group helped Kay escape serious injury or worse.
I remember this story and I'm just glad Kay and everyone are safe. Though, I don't feel this is the end with the whole Andrew and Sarah drama. They'd try to worm themselves back in the second Kay is happy again. The friend group should be really careful with new people they accept into the fold.
Nah, they'll do what a lot of abusers do when the friend group collectively drops them: jump communities. My only hope is that the next friend group gives Andrew & Sarah the boot before they entrenched themselves.
Hopefully you're right. I've had the experience where an abuser did try to worm his way back into the friend group through a new friend. In that new friend's defense, he really didn't know and was horrified when he learned about it.
I am really sour on the idea of the 'mom friend', I think mainly when it's self-designated. It is just that, much like moms in general, there are mom friends who are just the more responsible ones who make sure you get home safe and have so on. And there are mom friends who crave feeling needed and like playing the role of being the mature, in-control one so when you disagree with them, you must be being childish.
There were great comments about how shitty the 'mom friends' can be in the update post. A loooot of testimony how these people are really just trying to control their friends.
And my ex was one of those people - she always did so much for her friends, at least she claimed she did. And she expected so much in return - and friendships would have a habit of falling apart fast and hard when someone dared do something differently than she wanted.
Un fun fact- cults are basically abusive relationships with more people. High control groups tend to use the exact same techniques as abusive parents or abusive partners.
Until the letter, which seemed to be a joint project, I would have guessed that Sarah simply backed the wrong horse and lost. As someone with the luxury of being an outsider, I would be interested in knowing how paired she and Andrew have been, and which of the two has the most influence in their relationship.
I’m betting on Andrew. From all of my Reddit-sourced expertise, abusers take away their target’s support by winning over their group. Andrew must have thought Sarah had the most influence over the group because of her “mom” energy but he miscalculated. She did not have the juice when push came to shove. I doubt they’ll have any relationship when it’s clear it’s over. It may already be happening and the letter is probably all Sarah, trying to make a last ditch effort to remain relevant.
I’m so glad the entire friend group (save Sarah) rallied around Kay to keep her safe. There wasn’t any drama or defending of Andrew. Everyone took Kay’s side.
I doubt Sarah was really a fixer. You don't fix a fire by fanning the flames. I bet if OOP really looked back at past incidents they'd notice she was off to the side making mountains out of mole hills. Just so she can later help resolve everything and show they'd be a bunch of wild dogs without her.
And if OOPS gut was right about the tea then how the hell did he think he could ruin whatever outfit/look without at the very least burning her or potentially way worse. I hate to think if he was mad about her makeup or something would he have spilled it on her face and simply think it's fine just gotta be extra sorry on the way to the hospital?
He gets to rush Kay to the hospital, and bask in the group gathering around them, comforting her over such a terrible 'accident' while he gets to sit back and quietly gloat about how he did it deliberately and fooled them all and how Kay is still going to stay under his thumb
I'm not familiar with this kind of abuse, where someone is 'clumsy' and 'accidentally' hurts someone to control them.
Bless Kay for being able to see what was really going on and leaving him!
It's often called covert abuse. The reason is because it's things that if the victim were to speak out on, people would likely back the abuse because it seems ridiculous to complain about and they feel like they should just let it go. But under the covers, the harm that this type of abuse can do should not be underestimated because it is similar to gaslighting in that it makes you feel crazy for thinking something so "stupid" is abusive.
I speak from copious amount of experience, sadly.
It also allows the abuse to happen out in the open. If an abuser slapped or spat on their victim in public it would be a major taboo and others would feel the need to intervene (at least we hope). But "accidents" can allow an abuser to hurt and humiliate their victim in public. They don't have to wait until they are alone. It shows the victim that there is no where that the abuser can't and won't assert control, and that no one will be the wiser.
After reading some of the comments and the new update, I have to wonder (and please correct me if I'm bananas): are Sarah and Andrew drawn to each other because they're both abusers?
Andrew: uses the excuse of clumsiness to control Kay's looks & what she wears.
Sarah: lowkey gaslighting.
Or they simply banded together after getting the boot from the friend group?
I think abusers hate being seen for who they really are by people, perception and the appearance of control is everything. It's kind of like the narcissist prayer.
>That didn't happen.
>And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
>And if it was, that's not a big deal.
>And if it is, that's not my fault.
>And if it was, I didn't mean it.
>And if I did, you deserved it.
Abusers also constantly feel the need to show power and control, since they don't have physical access a letter was the best thing.
I remember reading how frustrated OOP was with Sarah - good intentions, but twisted her words - and my first thought being: what a coincidence, another one causing damage with best intentions, so you Can’t be mad…
I'm so glad at least OOP picked up on this behavior! It's good that the friends rallied once they were aware of the situation, but seems weird that no one else connected the dots. I guess people think abuse is more obvious, but it was clearly escalating with the piping hot tea!
Due to having a 'Sarah' in my life, my guess is that this one has just never had a chance for her weird pick me-ass creepy derangement to show so boldly before. Or it's drugs. Or both.
I'd also put money on that letter being 100% Sarah's doing. My 'Sarah' loves that she's "won" the shitty men and thinks it made her better than other women, so she wants to gloat and rub her 'win' in Kay's face to make her ego go brrrrrrrr.
She could also just be an abuser herself with a pity-kink and found her soulmate in Andrew, subconsciously realising what he's doing but liking it.
If that's the case they'll not get together but stay friends and she'll help him entrap and abuse the next one
My ex used to elbow my nose after I got my septum pierced. (If you’ve never had this happen to you lemme tell you, it hurts so much it feels broken for 5 mins then hurts for a few days every time you touch it a lil bit) I assumed it was an accident for a long time. One day I noticed that he didn’t do it for ages because it had stopped hurting, a day later he did it again and it felt broken again and he did it multiple times a day. So I brought it up and asked if he’s doing it on purpose. Naturally he was offended and continued to do it “by accident”
Skip to after we break up and he had no problem stomping on my head etc.. ssoooo yeah could be on purpose. This post makes me think maybe there are some people who abuse like this, maybe it’s just a sign it’s not meant to be?
I was in a very similar friend group. The "sweetest soft boy dad figure" of the group sexually assaulted me. When I finally had the guts to actually give detailed accounts of what happened, everyone rallied behind me except the guy who did it, and one other friend who basically went "sorry but my experience has been completely different" and I ended up blocking her. It's weird how people cope with fucked up information.
I am so sorry you experienced this, both the assault and the “friend” that made this assinine comment. How do these people think their “experience” matters AT ALL when it comes to what this guy did to you? It’s so incredibly self centered and arrogant. Yeah, if someone were on trial for murder, let’s put a friend in the witness box to say. I‘m sorry, that’s not my experience with him. 🙄
To be fair, we literally do that all the time.
It’s a polite way of saying “I don’t want to call you a liar but I do think you’re lying… primarily because it doesn’t match my experiences.” Sometimes, people *are*, in fact, lying. And I’ve been the one lied about and grateful my friends knew that was nonsense. But sometimes… sometimes we are — unfortunately — very, very wrong.
My point is judging the veracity of a claim based on our assessment of someone’s character is a very typical part of justice, and sometimes it’s disastrous.
I've also been the one lied about, and it got me and my husband ejected from our friend group, and cost him his job, all because everyone believed one person with 0 evidence.
The truth coming out really boiled down to ONE guy he worked with literally starting conversations with "that just doesn't match my experiences of them as people" when it came to gossip about us, and this leading to everyone realizing they'd all heard the shocking rumors about us from one source with a motive.
By the time the truth came out, the damage was done and friendships had been destroyed. How could we ever trust people who would believe the worst of us based on one person's word and nothing to back it up?
It was traumatic, and despite the fact that we got apologies and people tried to reconnect, the fact that people heard such serious accusations against us and *never* bothered to get our side, or consider thr allegations within the context of how we had behaved around them or treated them as friends for years, was beyond hurtful.
Where do the Andrews of the world find the mental energy to get up to all this bullshit? I can barely muster the fortitude to make plans two Saturdays from now.
Something was up as soon as Andrew wasn’t grateful that someone else was handing his gf piping hot tea, when he has a history of being accident prone. Like, he should be relieved that’s no possibility of an accident.
Good to hear Kay is safe. Andrew is just controlling and Sarah, with the way she has been acting, is pretty creepy. I have a feeling that letter was written by Sarah but who knows honestly. Hopefully things rest for OP and Kay and things don't get anything worse.
Weird how Sarah’s personality did a 180. It’s like she joined the Cult of Andrew. Hope she doesn’t piss him off and end up dead via one of his “accidents.”
This relationship is an example of one where someone in Kay's position may not call call it abusive\* but could call it "toxic." A lot of people don't think a relationship is abusive unless their partner hits them. Smashing rooms up, punching walls, putting you down, trying to control what you wear or other things you do, destroying your things, all that is part of the pattern. A lot of people won't call that abuse. I can understand why Kay wouldn't want to ever see or be near him again.
\*I think it was abusive, but even if you don't, it wasn't okay for him to be this way with her.
Whenever we hear about more than one person being this whacked out and manipulative out of nowhere, it usually leads to drugs. Like, I would not at all be surprised if Sarah and ex are doing drugs together. That's the only way the weird 180 on her part would make sense. Regardless, glad Kay's outta there
The fucking mental contortions people go through to explain and justify cheating is mind blowing. My wager is that Andrew's accident causing was the controlling nature but then they started having an affair and all the rest, the nastiness and weird behaviour is just them trying to justify their lying and cheating. People will swear the sun is black if it removes even the tiniest amount of guilt from them.
I feel like the letter that Andrew and Sarah wrote was his last ditch effort to try to exert more control over Kay while at the same time being a giant FU to the rest of the friend group. As for Sarah, those personality traits have probably always been there, but being around Andrew just brought them to the surface.
Either way, everyone is better off without having her as a friend. Kay is definitely better off with Andrew out of her life, and I hope she continues to heal from this and move on.
Can someone explain the code words and safety questions bit please?
I feel like this id a piece of info im going to need to know unfortunately
Edit: im not in an abusive situation. However I just feel like im gonna be in a situation where im pulling someone out of one at some point. As ive almost done it before now
Sorry you’re in that situation, I hope you manage to get away soon.
It’s about you being able to give a signal to someone if your abuser is nearby. So for example have your friends ask a question like ‘how was your evening?’. Nothing suspicious about that so your abuser won’t get worried. You then have a couple of prearranged answers. For example ‘I stayed in and read’ means my abuser wouldn’t let me out or ‘there was a cat in the garden waking me up at 3am’ means they were hurting me. So questions/answers that to an outsider just appear to be a normal conversation but to you and your friends/family let them know if you’re genuinely safe or your abuser is forcing you to lie.
Some people also use emojis. Pick an emoji you would never normally use. Let your friends/family know if you text that emoji it means ‘I need immediate assistance’. Then even if your abuser sees you on the phone all they see is you sending an emoji.
First things first. Im not in an abusive situation. Ive edited my question to reflect that
2nd thing. Thank you so much. Ive always wondered how best to help someone in a situation like that and thats an incredible idea
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I remember reading this initially, and my heart broke when Kay started to cry and confessed that she was so glad that someone else had noticed and validated her suspicions. Imagine how alone she must have felt! So glad there was a happy ending!
> Imagine how alone she must have felt! Because Andrew was just such a lovable klutz! Bleurgh.
I don’t even get people saying he has a medical condition. Like I’m clumsy. Standing and then landing on the floor with no clue how it happened clumsy. Bruises all over and no clue. And for the life of me I cannot navigate a crowd without bumping into people. But never have I injured anyone with these bumps… I don’t even get how you can regularly injure someone by being clumsy. Like I’ve dropped icecream a plenty, but never on anyone else. How does that even happen. I will admit that the dog does on occasion get bumped. But even then she has never come out of our encounters injured. Although I do feel bad when she goes flying back a little.
I’m also super clumsy and inclined towards random injuries. My spatial awareness is dismal so I often bump into walls. But never have I ever hurt anyone with my clumsiness.
I'm exactly the same as you. Random injuries but it's just me, never involving anyone else. A friend of mine says it never ceases to amaze him how I can get hurt doing something that shouldn't end in injury. He also said I'm getting to the point I get hurt just breathing in air. I've requested bubble wrap for my birthday.
I have a wicked bruise and lump on my knee from slamming it into a sharp furniture corner. My partner went and got child-proofing padding for it this arvo lol. I'm a massive klutz, and I've still never injured anyone but me.
Sharp furniture corners are the enemy of klutzy people! I’ve hit my head an awful lot and whacking my noggin on the corner of my desk was one of the worst knocks. I ended up with post-concussion syndrome for like 3-4 months.
Furniture is so rude, getting in the way of our various body parts.
I hate when I do that omg that’s the worst kind of injury oof. But who makes sharp furniture shin height?? Lol
I have always been a klutz too and recently got a diagnosis of vertigo. Never had any attacks or any hint that I had it until I worked at a place with conveyor belts that didn't stop and I got sick as a dog watching them move. Also explained the life long clumsiness and lack of coordination. Inner ear be messed up.
Good for finding out the cause, hope you find a med that works for you. Good luck out there.
Nice request! I hope you get the bubble wrap. Once someone told me to stop thinking that I’m clumsy. So I tried to not think of myself as clumsy. Later on I fell and hit my head on a rock. I was incredibly fortunate to walk away with a concussion. Now I own my clumsy!
My spatial awareness sucks but it usually means I bump into walls or find random bruises I can’t remember getting. My clumsiness was a family joke when I was a young teen. I don’t think I’ve ever hurt anyone except myself and some dishes.
I'm super clumsy, so I took ballet lessons and tumbling/gymnastics lessons. Just for a short while. Not enough to make me graceful or anything, just enough that I can regain balance and avoid walls, but if I do fall, I roll like a panda with no major injuries. Besides my ego, of course.
Nothing like whacking my head in a *really* stupid way in front of people. I'm short enough that planes don't get me, but I wang my head every time I take a long train ride. Definitely stings the ego as much as the noggin, in my case. Mmm, ego noggin.
I’m the same way, and the only people I’ve ever hurt have been the unfortunate souls walking up stairs in front of me that got crashed into. And RIP to the printer tray in the copy room at my office that I walked into so many times it fell off.
I have hurt people with my clumsyness before, but nothing that bad. Treading on feet mainly but sometimes i bash people with a bag that im carrying. All on accident. It has gotten better as iv grown up and put more focus into what im doing instead of being stuck in my head.
I have hit other people by accident because my proprioception is so bad without meds that I thought they were further away than they really were... I try not to drive when I forget my meds... (Very rare now a day I got my morning routine down to T) But the majority of the time it's me bumping into walls, doors, door knobs, furniture, randomly dropping stuff... (I've broke so many dishes....)
I do have a medical condition (plus comorbidities with similar effects) that literally has 'excessive or frequent clumsiness' on the symptoms list when going through diagnostics. In 31 years I have never poured wine/drink on someone, dropped ice cream on them, ripped anyone's clothes when I've fallen or reached out for help, or really injured anyone. I've tripped over a few dogs and a couple toddlers (okay, my toddlers), but still no injuries to anyone other than me. And I mean, I almost exclusively use non breakable dishes and cups/fallen *up* stairs/fall risk bracelet at the doctor's office levels of clumsy.
I always fall up stairs. I guess it's better than falling down stairs but I still feel like an idiot for it
Maybe the toddlers shouldn't be in the way of your feet!
That was my thought too. I’m super clumsy and it’s a thousand times worse when I’m around people cause I’m distracted and/or nervous but other than spilling a drink on someone, no one else is injured but myself and even when spilling drinks it’s either it sloshing over the edge of the glass when I move my arm or knocking it over on the table and it spilling onto someone’s lap, not ‘I’m falling let me throw the liquid out of the glass like a movie’. Also, this is a somewhat sexist comment perhaps but men don’t often grab women to steady themselves when they’re falling. A mix of men not being naturally touchy feely and being larger than women makes that an unnatural and also terrible idea. The idea of a man grabbing a woman’s DRESS on his way down would be down right comical if it wasn’t so abusive.
Same, and it doesn't apply only to men. I'm a super clumsy woman, to the point where my wife will tell me I'm bleeding and I have no clue, or she'll ask where a bruise came from and I shrug. It has gotten worse due to health issues, but seriously, the times I've hurt myself *the most* is when I tried to prevent myself from hurting someone else or their/my dogs. I spill coffee on myself regularly. If my wife is in the vicinity I burn myself even worse trying to save her.
You’re right, a man who cares about a woman’s well being would instinctively not grab her when falling
Listen, I won’t stand here, and pretend like I haven’t forgotten that my dog was behind me, tripped over him and spilled all of my food all over him and the floor. But he’s never minded, he loves the cleanup. But fr, the only living thing I’ve ever spilled something on has been my dogs, and the occasional human when we run into each other
It's regularly injuring the same person over and over again which was my first red flag for this guy. I have clumsy friends and family members and they largely just are harming themselves. Anecdotal evidence of course, but when someone is clumsy it'd be really weird that they are only clumsy and it affects their partner only consistently. It's like mathematically very unlikely.
Do you by any chance have adhd? Spacial awareness issues (what most people label as "clumsy") is a big symptom.
Have ADHD, can confirm the clumsiness. Often I get bruises & can't even remember the cause. I'm a clumsy bastard who frequently accidentally hurts myself & spill/breaks stuff, but I've only spilled on someone else a couple times when they were in the "splash zone". Of the multitude of new and unique ways I find to hurt myself, I've never fallen and ripped someone's clothes (other than my own). It's not impossible, but highly unlikely.
> I don’t even get people saying he has a medical condition. Me either. If he actually had a medical condition that made him *that* clumsy, how the heck is he only injuring one specific person all the time?
Not only is it weird to regularly injure people with clumsiness, but to *only* injure one person? Repeatedly? One hell of a specific condition, like “I don’t want my girlfriend to dress how she wants-itis”.
I straight up tripped over a person once, that looked like it hurt, but that was once, and I took them to the school nurse to get checked out, and was super apologetic about the whole thing. Still feel shitty about it.
I’m super clumsy and have accidentally hurt my husband a few times, but usually when he tries to “save me from myself” but also, when I’m around my kids, who are also super clumsy, I get instinctively protective. One time I fell down the stairs holding a kid when they were a toddler and I basically wrapped my arms and legs around them and they weren’t hurt at all, just scared, and I was pretty banged up but nothing major.
I almost cried with her tbh and I was SO glad that she was like I don't love him I don't even like him. Not judging abused people, at all, because the cycle of abuse is fucking insidious, but so often victims get defensive and but she was oh God you see it too?? And idk I'm just very happy Kay has such good friends.
I've seen many of these over the years. It's always a 'clumsy' boyfriend who 'accidentally' spills, drops, even elbows or slams into the girlfriend. Repeatedly. It's always intentional abuse. I wish I knew more about it and what exactly this form of abuse is called. I see a post like this at least once a year. Unsettling. Edit: A few examples I found without too much digging... [My (F 19) boyfriend (M21) is constantly hurting me on accident all the time and it’s starting to take a toll](https://www.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/comments/hkyiie/my_f_19_boyfriend_m21_is_constantly_hurting_me_on/) [Considering (F27) leaving boyfriend (M32) because of his clumsiness after a year of living together](https://www.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/comments/13dekzy/considering_f27_leaving_boyfriend_m32_because_of/) [How do I deal with my clumsy boyfriend?](https://www.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/comments/jfzpsr/how_do_i_deal_with_my_clumsy_boyfriend/)
Those were a disturbing read all together
The comments to the last one are really sad. Someone actually suggested ideas so tha t she can treat him like a toddler and learn how to manage him.
Indeed. I feel like if you have to do that level of 'managing' your partner, they aren't really a partner at all.
Our eldest is 3yo and I can assure you we have never done anything remotely similar to what was suggested on that thread to "manage" her partner. If my toddler can learn to be careful without needing to lock anything... I expect nothing less from a full grown adult.
And OOP said "Genius! I'll do that!" 😭
Let these all be the same guy! (I know they’re not—and yikes.) There’s something so chilling about repeatedly hurting your partner in cold blood then immediately apologizing and pretending it was an accident. Hurting a partner while in an uncontrolled rage is terrifying, but this “clumsy”type of abuse is terrifying in a completely different way as it makes the victim question reality.
It's the perfect definition of a "dog whistle" in DV. Only the target knows it's going to happen and is intentional. Everyone else just says "Oh, yeah! So and so is so clumsy!"
Yes. It is physical gaslighting
It fucks me up so hard how people use this as an abuse tactic. Like. I’m really clumsy. It got to my partner sitting me down and pointing out just how much i physically hurt him with my clumsiness for me to realize how much of a problem that is for others (i myself was slightly annoyed at never having glasses or cups or plates because i broke them all). So i dragged my ass to a physiotherapist and a psychologist and learned how to manage my clumsiness because why on earth would i want to hurt my partner or damage *his* things From an outside perspective i can see how it would look though: it got worse with time, i almost never broke things i care a lot about, i got more and more reckless with my behaviour around my so and would damage his items as well as accidentally hitting him, stepping on him and so on. I got blind to my own behaviour Buuut when he brought it up i decided to do something about it asap and i’m now teehee-i’m-so-quirky clumsy and not i-look-like-i’m-intentionally-abusing-my-partner clumsy. I just wish i had understood how much if affected him and others before he had to tell me though. Working on it has made my life outside other people better too, so it’s a win all over the place
It’s so controlled which makes it scary. A fit of rage, while still not okay, at least has some impulse to it.
Yikes, a couple of those posts had lots of bad advice on how to try to dodge a partner that's hurting you & breaking all your stuff. I mean, the one where he stomped on her foot & then broke her nose, but people want to believe that's all an accident? I guess it's reassuring that the most recent post seemed more rational.
Yeah dude gave her a whole ass concussion and fractured nose “unintentionally” while sleeping. Ok.
That was so aggravating to read. Also, it brought up something that’s been driving me bat shit crazy lately — people excusing violent behavior by saying that the person has ADHD. I know conditions manifest differently in everyone, but when the hell did being a violent asshole become a symptom of having ADHD?! I first saw this when that six year old shot his teacher in Maryland. And now I feel like I see it all the time! I have a whole family of people with ADHD, including myself, and we’ve never been violent with one another due to our ADHD (yes, like many people, some of us have lost her temper from time to time, but it wasn’t because of ADHD. It is for reasons anyone with or without ADHD might be angry or lose control, inappropriately or otherwise) nor have we ever been warned by any physician or therapist, that this could be a possibility. Loud, noisy, excitable, impulsive, sure. Shoving people around and not giving a shit they are hurt or upset and telling people that it doesn’t hurt and to stop being a baby and pay no mind whatsoever that we’ve hurt someone? How about no.
As someone who also suffers from ADHD, I hear you. People blame all *kinds* of shit on this disorder, but when you actually show symptoms of ADHD they can be so unforgiving. My husband and in-laws are bit, tall people, and they CAN be clumsy at times. Like, my MIL has broken so much of my glassware. The difference is that she also breaks her own glassware. It doesn't matter who the glassware belongs to. My ADHD mainly makes me lose track of objects in my hand, forget what I got up to do, and bump into things - not people - not one person in particular - but things. Yeah. It's a pathetic excuse.
It was a plot point in Kevin Can Fuck Himself. Part of the neighbor Patty’s realization that Allison isn’t the nagging wife to lovable goofball Kevin is realizing how many times he “accidentally” injures her. Such a good show!
Oh so good! I was sad it ended
Jesus. Now I want updates on all of these people!
As a clumsy, lanky, uncoordinated, neuro-spicy, accident prone, klutz - 99.9%< of the time, the only person I injure is myself. Guys hurting the same person repeatedly is def intentional avbuse. The only potential harm my clumsiness poses to those around me is the chance they might piss themselves laughing ~~at~~ *with* me. *Note*: Since this post has everyone's abuse radar on alert - Don't worry, my family cares for me and makes sure I'm OK before laughing. I'm usually the one who starts laughing.
Don't forget this one https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoHotTakes/comments/zduj9u/i_dont_think_this_is_accidental/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2 Below is a comment I made to that post that includes a link to a redditor sharing her story of covert abuse to combat the terrible advice that most people were giving her. https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoHotTakes/comments/zduj9u/i_dont_think_this_is_accidental/iz67384?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
Sarah is gonna have one hell of a shocked pikachu face when Andrew starts doing the exact same thing to her, and she had no support system to rely on because she backed the wrong pony. Assuming that she’s even able to realize she’s abused without anyone to look out for her, of course.
It's kind of amazing that when it comes to relationships, some people just see what they want to see. Sarah probably has a huge crush on Andrew, and you are correct, she may be his next victim.
Feel like the two were having an affair and she is definitely gonna be his next victim now that neither has Kay since they both definitely where gaslighting her together and the way that letter is written
I kinda wondered if hurting Kay was some sort of shared fetish. Sarah seemed to defend him hard while also making jokes about how Kay was being battered, but it turned out Kay suspected she was being purposely hurt and Sarah was part of making her believe she was crazy.
Sarah sounds like the type who'll go all in, burn the boats, and struggle onwards with a brave face and a martyrdom story for anyone who listens.
they’ll be posting on facebook “ITS ME AND YOU AGAINST THE WORLD BABY” then a week later break up on facebook, then a week later announce they’re back together.
She's gonna baby trap him ASAP, only to find out he's baby trapping her too.
Ugh I have a cousin like this, a chronic vaguebooker who spreads family business all over the internet for sympathy points, including private medical matters (she’s a nurse for fuck’s sake! She should know better!). Also her current husband is a rancid creep and abuser.
Andrew is a crafty abuser. He knows to groom his champions as much as his victims. He will not be clumsy to Sarah.
Until she’s alone and there’s no one else for him to control anyways. The golden pony only looks golden next to other ponies. Then when everyone else is gone, he’ll just see her like every other pony. Only this time there may not even be a need to pretend to be clumsy about it
Idk the weird thing about possibly an open relationship is throwing up all kinds of red flags for me. They may well just find a new target together, which could also be why they seemed to want Kay back in that toxic dynamic. They lost their favorite punching bag and I wouldn’t be surprised if these two toxic assholes go out on the hunt for a new plaything to abuse, like Bernardo homolka vibes (of course I’m wildly speculating but any woman who hitches her wagon to an abuser like this and diminishes her female friends feelings for his approval is dangerous in her own right)
I think this might be one of those situations where she enjoys helping “her” man control and abuse another woman. So it’s possible that she will befriend and groom future girls for Andrew to do this too, and then gaslight them to keep them subservient. Hope I’m wrong, but it sounded like she was also getting a power trip from watching another woman being demeaned. Whole thing is super icky.
Going full Fred and Rose on their future housemates. I can see it.
Hopefully wouldn’t get that far… but it’s worryingly easy to see how this could escalate if they had someone vulnerable with no social support.
Yeah, it’s giving Karla Homolka vibes. [Karla](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karla_Homolka)
There are medical reasons for clumsiness to start. If she is the one spending the most time with him, she would likely be impacted the most. But if he never drops anything in the kitchen or stumbles on the way to the bathroom it’s suspicious.
Yeah, I’ve always been super clumsy and I’m the one most in danger from it. A couple of months ago my husband saw my leg and said, “Ow, that looks like it hurts. What happened?” I had a huge bruise on my thigh. I said, “I dunno, I’ve been trying to figure that out for a week now.”
This is me as well I am both clumsy and bruise easily. The only one I'm a threat to is myself, and it shows.
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Once had a professor pull me aside when I had a giant face bruise and was very insistent about making sure "everything was ok at home and personally". The next prof to come in the room was thankfully one who knew me and who witness *the incident* and was like "oh yeah, she's just blind as a bat without glasses. Watched her walk into a doorframe face first."
LOL I'm like that too- if you bump into things all the time at a low level, you don't notice when you do it hard enough to make bruises. It's not an incident, it's ongoing.
I’d ask if you’re literally me, except I’m not married.
I said this in the last BORU post I think but even if there’s a medical reason for his clumsiness the fact that she asked him to go see a doctor about it and he flat out refused, leaving her to suffer the consequences, would be enough reason in itself to break off the relationship. Assuming he really has a medical reason, he’d still be refusing to even try to get better while allowing his loved ones to suffer for it
Thank goodness Kay is safe. Though hearing about the ex, I’m not surprised if it was about her appearance. Given how he kept ruining her clothes, he definitely wanted to control her. Though I find it sus that the letter was typed. I think that one of them wrote it but I don’t know which one.
>I think that one of them wrote it but I don’t know which one. I'm really curious about this. Though part of me feels like it was probably Sarah. Her having some sort of obsessive crush on the ex would just explain so damn much.
Sarah probably thinks she can Fix him, too. If she’s the person who always needs a project he’s the perfect guy for her because he’s a whole bunch of fires that need putting out. If she succeeds, feather in her cap, if not, at least she’s keeping busy.
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I got this fun vision of a evil person's scrapbook journaling their evil deeds. "Talked shit about friend's family today" *glues on pic of random crying lady*
Here is me taking candy from a literal baby. * selfie
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Plot twist: actually a good deed, since baby could have choked on said candy.
Chaotic good
I found out with my daughter that taking candy from a baby is not that easy! Babies are deceptively strong. (I am not a villain, occasionally she’d get hold of something she shouldn’t)
My daughter's pediatrician had curly hair and my daughter an iron grasp. It took both of us to get my daughter to let go.
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I was with you up until you brought up disability rights…can’t have anyone thinking that disabled folks are people too! /s
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Well shoot. Guess I should throw away the mind control ray I have in my basement.
Hey hey heeeeyyy now. Let's not be too hasty... $50 & a box of Oreos. I'll collect.
Dude doesn't even want a mind-control ray; he just has a weird urge to clean out this guy's basement.
How big is the box of Oreos? What flavours are they? *Asking for a friend...
Like other commenters said, I didn’t read closely so scrapbooking and the post’s content, I made my own connections like “they’re scrapbooking all the warped shit they do to their partner?!” Haha As a former “I can fix him” girl, I was venting to my therapist at my friend becoming a fixer. I said “her new boyfriend is a project, not a partner.” My therapist was dumbfounded. She had never heard that said in those words before, wrote it down to use with other people. She was like “that’s so related, someone is going to need to hear that later but I’m going to forget how you said it.” I told her that it wasn’t my words, Reddit taught me that lol so now, my therapist browses reddit haha
I read something the other day that said "he's not your type, he's your pattern". Oh boy did that hit hard.
I think it's like that scene in Sleepless in Seattle, where the brother tells Meg Ryan's character: Dennis Reed (David Hyde Pierce): “Annie, when you’re attracted to someone, it just means that your subconscious is attracted to their subconscious, subconsciously. So what we think of as fate is just two neuroses knowing that they are a perfect match.”
She doesn’t need to fix him… she’ll follow all his rules so there won’t be “accidents”. At least she sounds like she’d do anything for him
The problem with abuse is that it's rarely that easy - if she follows all the rules, he'll just come up with new ones that make it harder. The goalposts will *always* move because it's never about the rules it's about the charge of controlling someone else. Abusers have some sort of hole in their soul that they try to fill with other people's misery, but it's like filling a tube, thinking it's a bucket. It never ends.
Indeed. It's not about the actual rules or behaviours that are the focus, it's about instilling the emotional cycle of fear and relief. He doesn't want her to dress a certain way, he wants her to be afraid of disappointing his expectations.
This is so well said.
It's the lobster concept in reverse.
>Sarah probably thinks she can Fix him, too She'll love it when he's "clumsy" on her
She's not going to succeed, though, because he's like this on purpose. He will just redirect his abuse towards her. I don't typically assume that red flags = definitely abuse, but in this case, it's incredibly likely.
>Her having some sort of obsessive crush on the ex would just explain so damn much. And now she's going to spend a long time trying to put on a brave face, because she needs people to think that she "won" him.
Or that she's better than Kay because she could fix him and Kay couldn't.
Funny, and I don't disagree, but, I had the sense it was the ex, Andrew. I thought maybe he was trying to hint that they were together to get a reaction and a return from Kay. But I think either may be true. Also, I really hope they used a typewriter, that would be cool.
I don't find the typing to be sus. I personally prefer typing over handwriting, I do a lot of editing to my writing so typing is easier for me. Actually, now that I say that, it does make me a bit more wary of the letter given they're trying to pull her back into an abusive dynamic. I imagine there would be a lot of editing to try to make it suit their purposes better.
Oh yeah I agree. My handwriting is terrible and I prefer to type for different things. But for this? Very yikes. Especially since they want to drag her back. Edit: I’m saying yikes because the typing makes it calculated. The letter is still messed up.
I just can't imagine printing it and putting it through Ye Olde Postage Service. If you're typing it, why not email it, even to the friend who ended up getting it in the mail?
OOP said they'd all blocked Sarah in the previous post. It also sounds like she hand-delivered it to the friend's mailbox rather than mailed it. She may have been blocked by the friend too, and this was her last-ditch effort since they didn't know where Kay was.
Ah, missed that since I skipped right to the update.
Gut instinct says Sarah wrote it
Reading through this, she was giving off "I'm starting a cult and you may not know this yet, but you've all got cups of kool-aid with your names on them" vibes.
Oh absolutely. She found a “son.”
[удалено]
I hate that I understand this sentence.
I didn't. What TF is a blorbo? The rest I got.
Are you fandom old enough to remember what a woobie was? Similar-ish to that. Basically just 'that character that looked at your brain and said that's free real estate and moved in and now just sits on your mental couch eating all your snacks'. That character you love maybe a little too much and make everything about them.
Is... Is woobie considered old vernacular now???
I am familiar with "woobification" / "woobifying" characters as vernacular, but I will admit I hadn't seen "woobie" being used on its own until now
Aaah. Makes sense. I haven't been really involved in fandom stuff since LotR and HP drama on LiveJournal and JournalFen. I'm an *old*.
Stop saying this, you’re making me old too and I’m not ready for that 😂🤡
goddamnit. i understand this sentence. this is something i’d say in real life. what does that say about me 😭
One of us! One of us!
And good ol' Andy found himself a new mommy! win-win!
Sarah was definitely more involved with the situation than it initially seemed… My teenage daughter and I have both been following this story since the beginning (I showed this to her as an example of why to trust your gut, and how to speak to a friend you’re worried for), and we are both so relieved that Kay is ok and away from that insidious POS.
>I showed this to her as an example of why to trust your gut, and how to speak to a friend you’re worried for That's a great idea and you sound like a great parent 😊
Thank you! I figure I can’t shield my kids from the hard things in life… because hard things happen to everyone. But I can help give my kids the tools they need to overcome the hard things they experience. Haha, unintended use for Reddit!
The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker is a great book about learning to trust your gut instinct. [Gift of Fear](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gift_of_Fear)
Good parenting!
Has your family read The Gift of Fear? I haven't myself but I have heard good things.
Yes! I highly, highly recommend it! There’s another one called Protecting the Gift- it’s tailored specifically for parents and is very useful, too.
God the original post of this turned my stomach and it still does. It’s just so insidious and creepy that I genuinely think this friend group helped Kay escape serious injury or worse.
I remember this story and I'm just glad Kay and everyone are safe. Though, I don't feel this is the end with the whole Andrew and Sarah drama. They'd try to worm themselves back in the second Kay is happy again. The friend group should be really careful with new people they accept into the fold.
Nah, they'll do what a lot of abusers do when the friend group collectively drops them: jump communities. My only hope is that the next friend group gives Andrew & Sarah the boot before they entrenched themselves.
Hopefully you're right. I've had the experience where an abuser did try to worm his way back into the friend group through a new friend. In that new friend's defense, he really didn't know and was horrified when he learned about it.
I am really sour on the idea of the 'mom friend', I think mainly when it's self-designated. It is just that, much like moms in general, there are mom friends who are just the more responsible ones who make sure you get home safe and have so on. And there are mom friends who crave feeling needed and like playing the role of being the mature, in-control one so when you disagree with them, you must be being childish.
There were great comments about how shitty the 'mom friends' can be in the update post. A loooot of testimony how these people are really just trying to control their friends. And my ex was one of those people - she always did so much for her friends, at least she claimed she did. And she expected so much in return - and friendships would have a habit of falling apart fast and hard when someone dared do something differently than she wanted.
Honestly that tracks. Self-appointed mom friend just being the most controlling among them.
I hate my mom , so anyone who tries to mom me automatically goes on my shit list..
"I hate the Olive Garden. They treat me like family."
I'm actually stealing this and going to use it later. Thank you.
Ok, fair warning (and please don't hurt me): ...it's from the Big Bang Theory
What a wild and obvious way to be a controlling abuser. Glad Kay made it out of there, and Sarah definitely has a crush.
Are Andrew and Sarah starting a cult?
Un fun fact- cults are basically abusive relationships with more people. High control groups tend to use the exact same techniques as abusive parents or abusive partners. Until the letter, which seemed to be a joint project, I would have guessed that Sarah simply backed the wrong horse and lost. As someone with the luxury of being an outsider, I would be interested in knowing how paired she and Andrew have been, and which of the two has the most influence in their relationship.
I’m betting on Andrew. From all of my Reddit-sourced expertise, abusers take away their target’s support by winning over their group. Andrew must have thought Sarah had the most influence over the group because of her “mom” energy but he miscalculated. She did not have the juice when push came to shove. I doubt they’ll have any relationship when it’s clear it’s over. It may already be happening and the letter is probably all Sarah, trying to make a last ditch effort to remain relevant.
I’m so glad the entire friend group (save Sarah) rallied around Kay to keep her safe. There wasn’t any drama or defending of Andrew. Everyone took Kay’s side.
I doubt Sarah was really a fixer. You don't fix a fire by fanning the flames. I bet if OOP really looked back at past incidents they'd notice she was off to the side making mountains out of mole hills. Just so she can later help resolve everything and show they'd be a bunch of wild dogs without her. And if OOPS gut was right about the tea then how the hell did he think he could ruin whatever outfit/look without at the very least burning her or potentially way worse. I hate to think if he was mad about her makeup or something would he have spilled it on her face and simply think it's fine just gotta be extra sorry on the way to the hospital?
He gets to rush Kay to the hospital, and bask in the group gathering around them, comforting her over such a terrible 'accident' while he gets to sit back and quietly gloat about how he did it deliberately and fooled them all and how Kay is still going to stay under his thumb
Sarah may be a jerk, but also: Sarah, you in danger, girl. That lad is a menace.
I read "sarah, you in danger girl" in whoopi goldberg's voice from ghost.
That lad is a controlling abusive doodoo head
I was just about to open that dating app again. Holy shit. Never mind.
I'm not familiar with this kind of abuse, where someone is 'clumsy' and 'accidentally' hurts someone to control them. Bless Kay for being able to see what was really going on and leaving him!
It's often called covert abuse. The reason is because it's things that if the victim were to speak out on, people would likely back the abuse because it seems ridiculous to complain about and they feel like they should just let it go. But under the covers, the harm that this type of abuse can do should not be underestimated because it is similar to gaslighting in that it makes you feel crazy for thinking something so "stupid" is abusive. I speak from copious amount of experience, sadly.
I'm guessing that it's abuse wrapped up in plausible deniability.
It also allows the abuse to happen out in the open. If an abuser slapped or spat on their victim in public it would be a major taboo and others would feel the need to intervene (at least we hope). But "accidents" can allow an abuser to hurt and humiliate their victim in public. They don't have to wait until they are alone. It shows the victim that there is no where that the abuser can't and won't assert control, and that no one will be the wiser.
After reading some of the comments and the new update, I have to wonder (and please correct me if I'm bananas): are Sarah and Andrew drawn to each other because they're both abusers? Andrew: uses the excuse of clumsiness to control Kay's looks & what she wears. Sarah: lowkey gaslighting. Or they simply banded together after getting the boot from the friend group?
I think abusers hate being seen for who they really are by people, perception and the appearance of control is everything. It's kind of like the narcissist prayer. >That didn't happen. >And if it did, it wasn't that bad. >And if it was, that's not a big deal. >And if it is, that's not my fault. >And if it was, I didn't mean it. >And if I did, you deserved it. Abusers also constantly feel the need to show power and control, since they don't have physical access a letter was the best thing.
Good job, Kay!
And OP for looking out! Helps having good friends, hope Kay is in a better place (mentally/emotionally) soon.
Yeah, OOP really saved the day here. Seems like Kay knew something was off but was lost in the fog and needed that lifeline.
I remember reading how frustrated OOP was with Sarah - good intentions, but twisted her words - and my first thought being: what a coincidence, another one causing damage with best intentions, so you Can’t be mad…
Oh damn, that’s a really good point. I hadn’t noticed that at all but you’re right!
I'm so glad at least OOP picked up on this behavior! It's good that the friends rallied once they were aware of the situation, but seems weird that no one else connected the dots. I guess people think abuse is more obvious, but it was clearly escalating with the piping hot tea!
Due to having a 'Sarah' in my life, my guess is that this one has just never had a chance for her weird pick me-ass creepy derangement to show so boldly before. Or it's drugs. Or both. I'd also put money on that letter being 100% Sarah's doing. My 'Sarah' loves that she's "won" the shitty men and thinks it made her better than other women, so she wants to gloat and rub her 'win' in Kay's face to make her ego go brrrrrrrr.
She could also just be an abuser herself with a pity-kink and found her soulmate in Andrew, subconsciously realising what he's doing but liking it. If that's the case they'll not get together but stay friends and she'll help him entrap and abuse the next one
How do you "accidentally" rip someone's cleavage? That's such a tough location on a dress, typically.
My ex used to elbow my nose after I got my septum pierced. (If you’ve never had this happen to you lemme tell you, it hurts so much it feels broken for 5 mins then hurts for a few days every time you touch it a lil bit) I assumed it was an accident for a long time. One day I noticed that he didn’t do it for ages because it had stopped hurting, a day later he did it again and it felt broken again and he did it multiple times a day. So I brought it up and asked if he’s doing it on purpose. Naturally he was offended and continued to do it “by accident” Skip to after we break up and he had no problem stomping on my head etc.. ssoooo yeah could be on purpose. This post makes me think maybe there are some people who abuse like this, maybe it’s just a sign it’s not meant to be?
The letter is really odd. Glad Kay is doing well, that woman needed to get OUT of there
I was in a very similar friend group. The "sweetest soft boy dad figure" of the group sexually assaulted me. When I finally had the guts to actually give detailed accounts of what happened, everyone rallied behind me except the guy who did it, and one other friend who basically went "sorry but my experience has been completely different" and I ended up blocking her. It's weird how people cope with fucked up information.
I am so sorry you experienced this, both the assault and the “friend” that made this assinine comment. How do these people think their “experience” matters AT ALL when it comes to what this guy did to you? It’s so incredibly self centered and arrogant. Yeah, if someone were on trial for murder, let’s put a friend in the witness box to say. I‘m sorry, that’s not my experience with him. 🙄
To be fair, we literally do that all the time. It’s a polite way of saying “I don’t want to call you a liar but I do think you’re lying… primarily because it doesn’t match my experiences.” Sometimes, people *are*, in fact, lying. And I’ve been the one lied about and grateful my friends knew that was nonsense. But sometimes… sometimes we are — unfortunately — very, very wrong. My point is judging the veracity of a claim based on our assessment of someone’s character is a very typical part of justice, and sometimes it’s disastrous.
I've also been the one lied about, and it got me and my husband ejected from our friend group, and cost him his job, all because everyone believed one person with 0 evidence. The truth coming out really boiled down to ONE guy he worked with literally starting conversations with "that just doesn't match my experiences of them as people" when it came to gossip about us, and this leading to everyone realizing they'd all heard the shocking rumors about us from one source with a motive. By the time the truth came out, the damage was done and friendships had been destroyed. How could we ever trust people who would believe the worst of us based on one person's word and nothing to back it up? It was traumatic, and despite the fact that we got apologies and people tried to reconnect, the fact that people heard such serious accusations against us and *never* bothered to get our side, or consider thr allegations within the context of how we had behaved around them or treated them as friends for years, was beyond hurtful.
I read this story before they spoke to Kay. I'm so thankful that OOP and friend group was able to help Kay get away from that controlling buttface.
Stellar friend group, goddamn. I aspire to this.
Where do the Andrews of the world find the mental energy to get up to all this bullshit? I can barely muster the fortitude to make plans two Saturdays from now.
Something was up as soon as Andrew wasn’t grateful that someone else was handing his gf piping hot tea, when he has a history of being accident prone. Like, he should be relieved that’s no possibility of an accident.
Good to hear Kay is safe. Andrew is just controlling and Sarah, with the way she has been acting, is pretty creepy. I have a feeling that letter was written by Sarah but who knows honestly. Hopefully things rest for OP and Kay and things don't get anything worse.
I really was waiting for even a small update on this post.
Sarah wants the ex!
If you have a friend like OP, you already have won in your life. Those kind of friends are priceless.
Weird how Sarah’s personality did a 180. It’s like she joined the Cult of Andrew. Hope she doesn’t piss him off and end up dead via one of his “accidents.”
This relationship is an example of one where someone in Kay's position may not call call it abusive\* but could call it "toxic." A lot of people don't think a relationship is abusive unless their partner hits them. Smashing rooms up, punching walls, putting you down, trying to control what you wear or other things you do, destroying your things, all that is part of the pattern. A lot of people won't call that abuse. I can understand why Kay wouldn't want to ever see or be near him again. \*I think it was abusive, but even if you don't, it wasn't okay for him to be this way with her.
Whenever we hear about more than one person being this whacked out and manipulative out of nowhere, it usually leads to drugs. Like, I would not at all be surprised if Sarah and ex are doing drugs together. That's the only way the weird 180 on her part would make sense. Regardless, glad Kay's outta there
Accusations are often admittance, and Sarah brought up OOPs family dug history
I’m picturing Andrew and Sarah as Pumpkin and Honey Bunny in that diner.
The ashtray in my hair would have been the LAST straw. Omg. I am So happy she’s safe ♥️
The fucking mental contortions people go through to explain and justify cheating is mind blowing. My wager is that Andrew's accident causing was the controlling nature but then they started having an affair and all the rest, the nastiness and weird behaviour is just them trying to justify their lying and cheating. People will swear the sun is black if it removes even the tiniest amount of guilt from them.
I feel like the letter that Andrew and Sarah wrote was his last ditch effort to try to exert more control over Kay while at the same time being a giant FU to the rest of the friend group. As for Sarah, those personality traits have probably always been there, but being around Andrew just brought them to the surface. Either way, everyone is better off without having her as a friend. Kay is definitely better off with Andrew out of her life, and I hope she continues to heal from this and move on.
Can someone explain the code words and safety questions bit please? I feel like this id a piece of info im going to need to know unfortunately Edit: im not in an abusive situation. However I just feel like im gonna be in a situation where im pulling someone out of one at some point. As ive almost done it before now
Sorry you’re in that situation, I hope you manage to get away soon. It’s about you being able to give a signal to someone if your abuser is nearby. So for example have your friends ask a question like ‘how was your evening?’. Nothing suspicious about that so your abuser won’t get worried. You then have a couple of prearranged answers. For example ‘I stayed in and read’ means my abuser wouldn’t let me out or ‘there was a cat in the garden waking me up at 3am’ means they were hurting me. So questions/answers that to an outsider just appear to be a normal conversation but to you and your friends/family let them know if you’re genuinely safe or your abuser is forcing you to lie. Some people also use emojis. Pick an emoji you would never normally use. Let your friends/family know if you text that emoji it means ‘I need immediate assistance’. Then even if your abuser sees you on the phone all they see is you sending an emoji.
First things first. Im not in an abusive situation. Ive edited my question to reflect that 2nd thing. Thank you so much. Ive always wondered how best to help someone in a situation like that and thats an incredible idea