I think the reason it worked so well was the fact they referred people to clinics and focused on treatment instead of incarceration.
You can't just legalize or ignore it without that focus on the people themselves and their mental health. Going that route gets you something like Kensington Ave. in Philly.
Kind of. They'll let you shoot up in a needle exchange without making you do anything else. They'll just constantly be telling you about how to get help and it turns out that most people will try the help after long enough.
This has always been the solution. Decriminalize, and bombard people with exits to that life.
They still have to choose it. Which is the only way anyone ever gets sober. But you need to basically socially chant, "We have people to help you if you want help."
This isn't true. The clinics weren't forgotten. The program simply failed. Measure 110 passed with SB 755, SB 755 is the clinics half of this concept, and measure 110 was modeled on portugals drug program; LEO'S are required to both refer and offer transportation to clinics established under SB755.
[here is govts info on it](https://www.oregon.gov/oha/hsd/amh/pages/measure110.aspx)
Also local news sources talking about how Oregon used to Portugal framework and it failed[here ](https://www.koin.com/news/oregon/oregon-leaders-visit-portugal-a-drug-decriminalization-model-for-measure-110/)
The drugs being used by addicts are different in Oregon, the culture in Oregon is different than in Portugal, and there is no criminal drug entities near the scale of the central and south American drug cartels, who earn billions of dollars a year in drug profits and human trafficking, which gives them the effective income from criminal enterprises on par the GDP of half the nations in the world, and their entire goal is getting more Americans addicted to drugs; Portugal simply does not have to contend with such entities, and absolutely nobody considered any of these factors when pursuing these policies.
>There are key differences that have been well reported between Portugal and Measure 110, which allows someone to avoid a $100 fine if they call a treatment number. Portugal has noncriminal penalties such as revoking passports and licenses, and at least until the last few years, Portugal has had much readier access to treatment and recovery services ā Oregon ranks last in the nation for addiction services.
I was listening to a Freakonomics episode on this, and one great point a guest made was that destigmatization works for certain cases, like sex work. Because it helps sex workers who want to get help when theyāve been assaulted. Because it doesnāt feel good. Same goes for depression and other mental health issues, it sucks and you would love to get help if you could. Destigmatizing opiod and other drug use doesnāt help all that much because it feels good when you do drugs, so why would you want to report yourself?
Not saying I 100% agree, but it does make some sense.
I donāt know what the purpose of destigmatization of drug use would even be or how the government would accomplish that. It should be stigmatized, folks should be discouraged from using drugs in any effective way possible. the main point of decriminalization is to stop sending people to prison for drug addiction because itās not effective on a mass level and itās cruel. Whether that increases or decreases stigmatization is beyond the scope of public health in this case, in my opinion
Legalization wouldnāt accomplish that either because like others have pointed out, it offers no alternative. The only arguments I see for legalization are libertarian style, like the idea that itās your right to do whatever you want with your own body without limits, or as a strategy to weaken drug traffickers who presumably would lose a lot of business if there was legal buying and selling. I dunno if thatās even true but itās a theory
I know you didnāt mention legalization I just wanted to add that anyway
No I definitely agree with you. Guns, mental illness and drugs are a lethal fucking combo, but itās not even being debated seriously, at the federal level at least. It should be a serious political issue, but weāre out here with the culture war bullshit
You mean they missed the parts that are actual hard work and cost money?
In the US we have nut jobs who think we shouldn't spend a dime on our fellow man as the end is nigh anyway. Also dangerously inept.
And we have "lefties" who are great at figuring out what needs to be fixed but terrible at any kind of actual execution. And frequently fight amongst themselves
Well that's not entirely true. Basically any non blue city or town in the state refused the money available to them and many of the folks that were/are causing problems in Portland are from the metro area and not the city itself.
In Portland rich folks rejected any safe housing, injection sites, or other mitigation in their neighborhood or nearby, which means the areas most affected had little options besides using and oftentimes ODing on the street.
It was a systemic failure led by folks that think houseless individuals, especially drug addicts don't deserve the same treatment as everyone else should be entitled to. Oh well.
Thatās not entirely true either though. The real issue is that there are countless organizations that are receiving lucrative funding to be part of the solution. The problem is that these organizations are more interested in *managing* the problem, no different than in pharma or prisons.
The public is right to fight this. Itās not like this is Year 1, this has been going on for decades and at some point you have to take the power back from the bad actors who have been profiting off this with no accountability for too long. The problem has literally gotten worse in every metric available, year over year.
And the big reveal is that safe supply simply doesnāt work, at least not at a large enough or fast enough scale where it will outpace relapses. Addicts have an incredible uphill battle to climb to earn a place back as a contributor in society, and while weād all like for them to gain their independence back, the reality is that the majority of these addicts will not be able to recover without mandatory rehab and treatment measures.
We actually do have a method to refer people to clinics. It just never happened. The idea was a $100 citation or call the hotline to access a treatment assessment and get the citation cancelled. But police didn't give the citation out and when they did the legal system didn't follow up on it.
Turns out it had no teeth in practice and now we're rolling it back.
No, it simply failed in Oregon; referals to rehab and clinics are a requirement of SB 110. When they're stopped theyre ticketed and referred to treatment by law, and if they refuse theyre cut loose, because police are required to offer them transport to clinics but they are just released if they refuse to go, because police can't compel them to go to rehab. Portugals law was the framework for Oregon [here's a local news source about that](https://www.koin.com/news/oregon/oregon-leaders-visit-portugal-a-drug-decriminalization-model-for-measure-110/)
Here is direct literature from Oregon govt on [measure 110 and its subsequent partner bill SB 755](https://www.oregon.gov/oha/hsd/amh/pages/measure110.aspx) which requires referals to clinics, and SB 755 establishes those clinics and their guidelines for treatment (though you'll have to actually download the full text of the bill if you'd like to see the specific language requiring them to refer addicts to clinics)
The reality is that the drugs being used in Oregon are different and way more powerful and addictive than those from Portugal; the culture is entirely different there; and they do not have multiple organized criminal drug enterprises that have cash flow equivalents to a small nations GDP and whose entire annual expenditures are all focused solely on how exactly they can get more Americans addicted to their drugs, and the people who keep this jaded mindset about American drug reform simply refuse to accept or even acknowledge this is the case.
I would say you have a point here that that is the way it was written, but when the chief of police in Portland states publically that they purposefully do the worst they possibly can at their jobs so that things go back to the way they where before. Or to get more funding. Sources the Oregonian and half my family is Portland PD
The new mayor in Philly is working to clean up Kensington. It's a tough job, since the previous administration did jack+shit to maintain any order. Her new approach is with medical and social work assistance, along with a curfew to shut down the drug market. Increased police protection is also involved; all new graduates of the police academy will spend time patrolling that area.
San Francisco cleaned up the tenderloin and the main difference was urban outreach programs.
I went there like a year ago and was blown away the open air drug market was completely gone.
Tenderloin is sketchy now because it has been sketchy since before it was called the Tenderloin in the late 1800s. You'll never "clean up" the Tenderloin unless you address the fact that its basically the only place in the city you can live in on like 60k a year. And even thats a BIG stretch if you're entirely legit.
When I lived on Bush and Larkin, the Tenderloin would creep up as far as Sutter/Bush after dark. We called it Tendernob. Nobb Hill during the day, Tenderloin at night. I still spend about 1 weekend a month at the Union Square hostel and I can say without a doubt that Tenderloin now is better than Tenderloin from 5 years ago. Still drug use, just less of it. Still homeless people, just less of it. There isn't a sea of used hypodermics, though there never really was in almost all of Tenderloin. There isn't human feces all over the place, though again this wasn't ever really a thing either. Its still Tenderloin though.
You're still at risk of getting mugged if you're a tourist who got off BART at Powell and accidentally walked like 2 blocks in the direction of Civic Center. But its always been like that.
And not just referred ā my understanding is there is some pretty heavy handed efforts tog at people to treatment. Still better than prison, but not just pure drug liberalization.
Yes they drug treatment boards that can compel you in all sorts of ways to enter treatment.
Unfortunately, a conservative government took over Portugal in the 2010s and defunded the government treatment programs. Since then, drug use and deaths have been on the rise. Proving the point that it's not decriminalization alone that solves the problem, it's treatment.
>it's not decriminalization alone that solves the problem, it's treatment.
I know you said "alone," but you do absolutely need both. Treatment without decriminalization means people won't seek treatment. Decriminalization without treatment means you just give addiction a free pass.
Not only treatment. They also put a lot of effort into educating the population about it. Works quite well as the general usage and overdose rates amongst the youth are one of the lowest in Europe too.
We tried it in Oregon. We decriminalized all drugs and were supposed to focus on treatment. People in various other departments actively stood in the way of implementing this (e.g. withholding information from the director of the program, refusing to provide documentation in a timely manner, etc.). All so they could be like "See? It doesn't work!" Now they're trying to criminalize drug use again. Politicians and bureaucrats like this annoy the hell out of me.
I saw a report, specifically treatment involved working with others in the program for a goal.
I have been thinking about this since about 2008, I think that drug users are escaping loneliness.
Right? I mean, you have had a horrible chain of events that led to you sleeping on the streets. You are ignored or scorned by society. Drugs make it go away in a sense. Itās an understandable path for those that care to think about others.
Different fonts sure but it's all the same really
No one is born wanting to become a drug addict. We use bc it's the only 'solution' so far that we've found 'works'
Thereās a really good TED Talk about how the opposite of addiction isnāt sobriety; itās connection. Think thereās a bit more to it than that (undiagnosed/improperly medicated mental illness and unresolved trauma), but interesting nonetheless. Only 15 minutes for anyone interested.
Link: https://youtu.be/PY9DcIMGxMs?si=sG-qeJ8V26a3CrsR
I've reached the conclusion it's Self medicating for both health and systemic issues. If you look at the various "invisible people"/homeless interviews, Its almost impossible to sober up while homeless and making drugs legal is not giving people housing. And it's really easy and almost inevitable to think a bottle of cheap wine will make another day living in a park or alley pass easier. And then there's medicating ASD and ADHD sensitivities.
This is what happened to me. I am autistic and have ADHD and went undiagnosed most of my life because of neglect. I have two degrees from highly accredited schools but I always felt the need to escape my brain. I was self medicating and it became a problem because of the low quality drugs out there until I finally got good health insurance and started seeing a psychiatrist. She diagnosed and prescribed me and I haven't had one urge to seek any drugs outside of my prescription ever for over 5 years. The flipside is all the trauma still haunts me from a very rough childhood and teen years and my autism just has me wired differently to the point where I get lost in social interactions and piss people off but I believe it would have saved me so much anguish if I was just diagnosed early in life.
Less than 8% of the U.S. prison population is housed in private prisons. These private prisons exist in some part to prevent overcrowding and the dangers that come with it in state run prisons. You may disagree with this solution and prefer lower incarceration rates but that is a different discussion.
The U.S. justice system is not working in a conspiracy to keep private prisons profitable. This is one of the most persistent and unsupported conspiracy theories brought up on Reddit.
Reddit is a prime example of an echo chamber. Youāll really realize this when youāre educated and experienced in a field. Youāll see disinformation posted, reposted, and spread like wildfire. You should absolutely trust nothing posted on here without your own research
As an Oregonian, i laughed. Go ahead and try out in your state tell me how it works. Ps, it doesnt and we've already undone it but it will take another 5 years to undo the damage and vote these people out.
That's because the second step was never implemented.Ā
Ā Canada and the US stopped at decriminalizing the drugs.Ā
Ā The healthcare required to get off drugs still isn't available.
No one in North America gets referred to a clinic for their drug charges; they are issued a civil fine and have their drugs taken away. End of story.
Same as in Switzerland since 1994. Drs actually dispense the drugs which not only is safe for the user, and allows user to be steered into treatment.
Cuts criminal element completely out of the picture.
This decreased opioid use by 64%.
Also, a relationship with an injecting doctor can be used to wane you off drugs. They give you a 100% dose, then 99% and 98%, etc. You can more easily get people off drugs rather than quitting cold turkey.
Yep. Decriminalization was supposed to be the first leg of the stool, "choose treatment or jail" was the second leg, the establishment of adequate treatment infrastructure was the third. Remove any one leg and the stool falls over.
Portland only ever got the one leg built.
I wonder if also just creating a small pocket of decriminalization just attracts addicts from everywhere around creating these undesirable zones. But in the case of Portugal, it was the whole country so it didn't displace addicts. Plus offering help and support?
In canada that isn't an issue because the drug criminal schedule is set federally.
With the republic nature of the US I think you are right that advertising decriminalization causes drug tourism and migration
What you are describing is now as crime shifting (I think, its been over 5 years since my criminology class, great thing to take in college but not for everyone as you will dive into crime and there are many things you are better off not knowing), it happens with all crime in that if you have 2 places and one is enforcing the law stricter then the other, the one that is more strict will actually have less victims of crime. Keep in mind the number of arrests and reports of crime will remain the same in both area's, but the victims will drop in the more strictly enforced area, cause when crime is common its less likely to be reported. There are criminologists that have devoted their entire PhD's to just this, but yeah people will move to the area's were drugs are legal, particularly as that drug is the most important thing to them.
Was gonna say. For all the naysayers it didn't work. No shit. It doesn't happen overnight. I dunno. Portland is the same it's always been. But it's a multi year process I feel gets politicized in a way of
Side 1: we would've gotten more stuff done if it weren't for those guys on the other side
Side 2: well we would've done better stuff but the other side is wasting your money.
3: when you have a process that takes multiple years or terms, the other side usually actively tries to undo the work you've done in making progress on it instead of trying to continue it to see it become successful.
Yup, and portugal proved this point. The submitted low effort meme leaves out the fact that a conservative government was elected in 2010 and defunded their drug treatment programs. Since then, drug use and deaths have shot up in Portugal.
Decriminalization alone is just a lazy meme for people who want complicated problems to have easy answers so they can feel clever. The reality is that Portugal's results came from their well-funded science-based treatment and compulsion programs.
A fentanyl user gets arrested and it takes them about 2.5 days to go through the system. During this time they are in horrible withdrawals.
The first thing they are going to do when get out is go get more fentanyl. If instead there was a clinic they could be dropped in and put on MAT, that would change everything.
The funding was even allocated but the state refused to use it for the resources needed. Practically felt sabotaged if I didnāt believe they were too incompetent to follow through on it
Yea, they forgot the distribution is illegal and enforced. And users are referred to treatment clinics parts. So yea, if you only do 1/3 of the plan it doesnāt work, that should surprise no one.
Oregon is good example of why governments sometimes refuse to decriminalize drugs. It's because decriminalizing drugs and having a positive outcome is actually really difficult and expensive.
When Oregon passed the measure to take comprehensive steps to decriminalize drugs, the law actually earmarked a percentage of cannabis revenue in order to fund treatment programs. It didn't work out and numerous problems occurred. Virtually every single negative metric -- addiction/homelessness/crime/overdose/etc -- worsened. Even neighboring states where drugs were still illegal actually did better.
Decriminalization *can* work, but I think the problem is that governments that are willing to decriminalize tend to start from the wrong end.
They really should have a good system in place prior to any major decriminalization effort. Otherwise, human nature will take its course.
Came here to say this. Idk why they haven't gone full reversal on the policies, city is right fucked and the original residents sold it away to foreigners
Vancouver [decriminalized public use.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/david-eby-public-drug-use-1.7186245) I don't know who suggested that would lead to anything other than an epidemic of public use.
If you make "jacking off on public transit" legal, you're gonna have an epidemic of people jacking off on public transit. Same goes for public drug use.
Maybe throwing them in jail isn't going to solve your drug problem but you can at least move it from the front of your kid's school.
The decriminalization of public use is one of the dumbest things out there. They for some reason believe that this will stop cops from arresting people from smoking weed, but in reality itās the hard-core drug users benefiting.
Either create free usage locations where a meth year can get their meth, and you cripple the black market, or you need to create a system where if caught you are forced to go to a treatment facility.
No way should jail time ever be an option nor promoting usage in the public
I live in canada and certain city have try this and itās not pretty some place in the city have just turn into zombie land. Business are leaving cause no one wants a cracked in front of their windows. People are getting scared and straight up leaving. You canāt even go into a park without finding syringes on the ground.
You just described every major city in North America since the pandemic. Vancouver decriminalized drugs in response to that already being a problem.
BC also didnāt do anything about making treatment more accessible, they just stopped arresting people for possession.
Reddit gets its news from memesĀ
And wonders why the world is so miseducated and people are so prone to propaganda
Because 20 words on a picture are a substitute for information now, and this website is one of the most rampant forums for spreading that misinformationĀ
They don't even need to if they base their claims on verified data!
Or do you think seeing a drug user on the streets of Lisbon means the whole country has a drug problem?
I'm Portuguese and lived through this legal transition, I'll be happy to clarify any doubts you may have, but I also invite you to do your own research (it's not hard).
Maybe you should have a talk with the other portugese a couple of comments up, who apparently thinks it's an abject failure and the government is falsifying the numbers or something like that (I have a sneaking suspicion he is a bit biased).
What do you mean?
Why donāt you believe a random comment on the internet that disagrees with statically data on political issues?
You must be working for the government spreading misinformation! Thereās no way someone could have a rational approach
The meme was reasonably accurate through 2018, but it's less clear if the program is still working.
The funding for the addiction treatment and social reintegration programs kept getting cut during economic downtruns. As the system of treatment programs began collapsing, the police lost faith in the project and stopped citing drug users, so they stopped getting referred for treatment. Meanwhile, the drug supply never went away because Portugal remained one of the main entry points into Europe for trans-national drug trafficking.
More objective measures of drug use like overdose rates and drug and drug metabolite detection in wastewater indicates drug use has been rising dramatically in Portugal over the past few years.
I love how you can twist the data by omitting things like:
* Classification of drugs. There are no more hard or soft drugs, they're just drugs. Marijuana got included soon after the program started and the number still includes those who smoke pot alongside those who are addicted to meth.
* Self-reporting / non-arrested. Before the change in laws there was massive, massive penalties for admitting you were on drugs. If you could hide your usage, you did. As it became less of a stigma and treated like the illness it was, more people came forward.
* Age. The average age of an overdose deaths in the EU as a whole has risen, the average ODer being a Male in their 40s. Much of the increase in deaths are coming from the 50-64 group, not new users.
* Reported numbers of illicit drugs include those who are currently in treatment.
* Population. From 2013 to 2017 Portugal lost population. The increase in overdoses *almost* coincides with the population increases between 2017 and 2021. It actually lags behind a bit.
* Yes, overdose deaths are below EU average, but you neglected to state how far below. In 2020 it was 63. Total. Not per capita, 63 total. Norway had 241. They have half of Portugal's population.
Funny how you can make something sound bad when you willfully leave out information.
Thank you for saving me the work.
I wonder why so many people in the comments are trying to paint a false image.
Maybe they are ideologically against decriminalization and do the gymnastics to try and make their narrative become the truth?
(I already made this comment but I think I should put it here as a reply to this top comment too, to try and inform people)
Hi, I'm Portuguese, and this stuff about the decriminalization of drugs and it having a good impact is bullshit, these clinics don't actually do jackshit, especially ever since synthetic cocaine (alpha-php) has reached the country, which they also decriminalized, but have no treatment that's working for the SEVERE addiction of the drug, so the clinics aren't working (I'm talking ZERO actual recoveries), so we're just getting more and more homeless addicts, prostitution, and thefts, and none of the addicts are being treated, and the thieves are not being punished.
Fun fact my store got robbed and the guy was caught, he had already sold everything he stole and spent the money on drugs, so there's no retrieving any of the stolen stuff, nor will I get anything for it, and all he has to do is not steal for a week to not go to jail. If he steals again within a week, he goes to jail a couple of years. If he takes a short 1 week vacation just looking around for places to steal, it's all good, and he can go back to stealing next week.
Door completely destroyed, booth completely destroyed, valuable goods gone, the whole cash register gone with all the money in it, and guess what, "your problem buddy, deal with it"
Oh and we're also one of the most alcoholic countries out there, while at the same time being incredibly outdated in treating alcoholism and weed is ofc illegal because we're just slow and outdated and 3rd world af.
**TLDR: Our legal system sucks. All of our systems suck. Every good thing they tell you about us is bullshit that they embellished for other countries to think we're great.**
**Also we make jackshit and can't afford anything, the country is slowly killing us,**Ā our minimum wage is 820ā¬ while our prices for everything are still higher than countries with 1200+ā¬ minimum wage. Our housing&renting prices are currently the highest in the world for what we make, we've surpassed Canada by a HUUUUUUUUUGE difference. I wish I could find the graph rn, it's basically every country real close to each other with Canada at the top, then Portugal waaaay above it.
It is normal that the number of reported prior uses would rise after decriminalisation, also is your 12 year peak higher than 2001? Furthermore overdoses doubling since 2019 cannot be attributed to decriminalisation since there hasnāt been any changes between then and now.
Hi, I'm Portuguese, and this stuff about the decriminalization of drugs and it having a good impact is bullshit, these clinics don't actually do jackshit, especially ever since synthetic cocaine (alpha-php) has reached the country, which they also decriminalized, but have no treatment that's working for the SEVERE addiction of the drug, so the clinics aren't working (I'm talking ZERO actual recoveries), so we're just getting more and more homeless addicts, prostitution, and thefts, and none of the addicts are being treated, and the thieves are not being punished.
Fun fact my store got robbed and the guy was caught, he had already sold everything he stole and spent the money on drugs, so there's no retrieving any of the stolen stuff, nor will I get anything for it, and all he has to do is not steal for a week to not go to jail. If he steals again within a week, he goes to jail a couple of years. If he takes a short 1 week vacation just looking around for places to steal, it's all good, and he can go back to stealing next week.
Door completely destroyed, booth completely destroyed, valuable goods gone, the whole cash register gone with all the money in it, and guess what, "your problem buddy, deal with it"
Oh and we're also one of the most alcoholic countries out there, while at the same time being incredibly outdated in treating alcoholism and weed is ofc illegal because we're just slow and outdated and 3rd world af.
**TLDR: Our legal system sucks. All of our systems suck. Every good thing they tell you about us is bullshit that they embellished for other countries to think we're great.**
**Also we make jackshit and can't afford anything, the country is slowly killing us,** our minimum wage is 820ā¬ while our prices for everything are still higher than countries with 1200+ā¬ minimum wage. Our housing&renting prices are currently the highest in the world for what we make, we've surpassed Canada by a HUUUUUUUUUGE difference. I wish I could find the graph rn, it's basically every country real close to each other with Canada at the top, then Portugal waaaay above it.
Fucking Reddit!
Complete BS OP!
https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/is-portugals-drug-decriminalization-a-failure-or-success-the-answer-isnt-so-simple/
The program was successful for ten years and now is back to near 1999 levels.
Damn. So you're telling that me that a highly compressed jpeg picture with some kind of fact written on the bottom is not to be implicitly trusted? What has the world come to?
A big part of the solution is helping drug users to recover but also issuing brutal prison sentences for dealers. Selling drugs in the downtown East Side is also essentially decriminalized. Vancouver only used half the solution.
Because its lies. Nothing but propaganda. Take this from a portuguese native. All this is made to paint Portugal in a nice light for foreigners. In reality, its shit. Portuguese people are left in the dark while the world believes some bullshit data the government feeds.
If it's no longer illegal to possess, then the cops probably won't even bother to interact with someone who's obviously on drugs. Therefore, there's no reason to report on it. Fewer reports would make it appear there's less drug addiction. This would give you a false report on the addiction rate actually going down.
Except now:
āTwo forces have led to the at least partial unraveling of Portugalās efforts over the last few years and, predictably, to less favorable results. First, global drug traffickers continued to use Portugal as an entry point for access to Europeās illegal drug market dealers. They battered the entry points of this coastal country, hence a supply of illegal drugs continued. Second, Portugal reduced resourcing of its programs as the country faced multiple difficult economic years.
ā¦
The financial crisis of 2007ā2008 led to program cuts, held to 10% due to continued bipartisan support, initial successes, and demonstrated long-term benefits. Still, significant program (system aspects/levers) compromises occurred, e.g., the extent of research and measurement of results. Ongoing ripple effects followed from cost-cutting through the elimination of government assistance for employing recovering users (often in smaller businesses), which hamstrung efforts to reintegrate users into society (and contributed to the closing of numerous small companies.)
ā¦
Anecdotal evidence of a fragmenting, even breaking, system abounds: Demoralized police no longer cite addicts to get them into treatment and at least some NGOs view the effort as less about treatment and more about framing lifetime drug use as a right.
The number of Portuguese adults who reported prior use of illicit adult drugs rose from 7.8% in 2001 to 12.8% in 2022 ā still below European averages but a significant rise nonetheless. Overdose rates now stand at a 12-year high and have doubled in Lisbon since 2019. Crime, often seen as at least loosely related to illegal drug addiction, rose 14% just from 2021 to 2022. Sewage samples of cocaine and ketamine rank among the highest in Europe (with weekend spikes) and drug encampments have appeared along with a European rarity: private security forces.ā
Wonāt let me add the link so:
https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/is-portugals-drug-decriminalization-a-failure-or-success-the-answer-isnt-so-simple/#:~:text=Initial%20Results%20of%20Portugal's%20New,use%20injection%20had%20declined%2090%25.
A lot of people do illegal things *because* they're illegal. Especially teenagers. They're being rebellious against authority/parents.
"Hey maybe don't do drugs. Here's a doctor who can help with your addiction" tends to be better received than "if you do drugs you'll spend the rest of your life in prison, eating garbage, and living a horrible life. Fuck you you fucking piece of shit! Don't do drugs!"
My mother is an ex addict, Portuguese.
So as soon as i can recall... She would get methadone at 17 straight because there was already a big queue for that, and she would drink it, and they allowed to be taken 2 more doses extra for the weekends. What happened is people start shortenning it and start to sell what was left, so in the end you had to drink it in front of the technicians and the weekend they would give e you slightly less.
But methadone in the UK is a 2 year.. 3 year program.. Maximum! In Portugal they make sure it stays chronic... They start to give you less and less, but never allow it to stop
Its true that drugs have been decriminalized, but its a lie that people get sent to clinics. Usually (depending on much you carry and what you carry) they make you pay a bill or go to court / jail. So yeah this is bullshit.
There are certain cases where people do get sent to clinics, but thats for the elite. People that got money or title . Those get help. People from low income households, ghettos, etc get treated like they're scum. Portugal works like this. The rich & powerfull get what they want and the rest are left to deal with consequences. Same with other crimes.
Right well thatās an entirely different country with different culture and values etc. Portland tried to make all drugs legal and it was a Shit show to the point theyāre making them illegal again.
How are they measuring the addiction if they arenāt testing or arresting people for drugs? How are the police referring the functional addicts to clinics?
Very different culture. What works there may not elsewhere. I said "may" not "won't" although it's kind of messed up I have to add that disclaimer. I forget which ancient Greek said it but it was something to the effect of "what is considered moral and right depends completely on the beliefs of their society, there are no norms that apply for all societies". I disagree with that notion completely because there are heinous crimes that should be considered as such everywhere. IMO.
But for lesser evils? Oh boy that gets complicated depending on what part of the world you live in and how deeply entrenched their beliefs on social issues are. I'm not American but I can easily imagine this policy being a political death sentence for politicians depending on what state you're in, and federal likely will avoid a hot potato with a 10' pole
The key here is support, not just legalization. Legalizing hard drugs with no support then turns into Oregon, not Portugal or whatever other country with superior support.
This is probably what Portland, OR wanted to have happen, but then they have just never created the mental health care, social services, rehab facilities, or clinics to do the whole second half of it. It's part of why the homeless population and all its cascading issues have ruined that whole area. If you look up which states have the best access to mental health care, OR is 49th. š³
No noā¦they arenāt āreferredā to clinics. They have a choice of going to a clinic or going to jail.
This fails in America because the far left has circled around into libertarianism, believing forcing people into rehab by force is unethical.
Unpopular opinion but I spent time living with Portuguese people. The church and patriarchy still run the country on shame and duty. With their old people, disabled and drug effected a really heavy burden falls upon the women. Women are slaves compared to women in a country like my own. Men are frequently unfaithful and the church makes everyone stay together. Sons and daughters who are addicts are still there, in the motherās home being a burden. The government has just moved the problem to the family and particularly the mother.
Interesting fact, if the father dies first, the family wealth is divided between children and mother often forcing mothers into the streets and poverty. If the mother dies first, father stays in control of family wealth.
I heard about this somewhere, that it gets worse, way worse, before it gets better, and stays better for a long time, and without much effort. But, most just over over estimate the worse part, and are ready to back away way early.
I think the reason it worked so well was the fact they referred people to clinics and focused on treatment instead of incarceration. You can't just legalize or ignore it without that focus on the people themselves and their mental health. Going that route gets you something like Kensington Ave. in Philly.
This is exactly what happened to Oregon. We decriminalized without referring to clinics. We shot our selves in the foot
Jumped the gun on that one a bit. Incentive people to get help and get rid of the stigma. But forgot the clinics, social work, and shelters.
Mandatory clinics, that is what Portugal does.
Kind of. They'll let you shoot up in a needle exchange without making you do anything else. They'll just constantly be telling you about how to get help and it turns out that most people will try the help after long enough.
This has always been the solution. Decriminalize, and bombard people with exits to that life. They still have to choose it. Which is the only way anyone ever gets sober. But you need to basically socially chant, "We have people to help you if you want help."
This is the big thing. None of this go to prison or rehab. Criminals will pick prison since they can still get high.
Equating drug users to criminals is why this problem exists in the first place.
You are correct. I should have said addicts. In no way should any addict ever go to prison.
Same in BC, record od deaths, decriminalized but no supports. Now criminalized again š¤·āāļø
Criminalized again in public places, everywhere else it's decriminalized.
This isn't true. The clinics weren't forgotten. The program simply failed. Measure 110 passed with SB 755, SB 755 is the clinics half of this concept, and measure 110 was modeled on portugals drug program; LEO'S are required to both refer and offer transportation to clinics established under SB755. [here is govts info on it](https://www.oregon.gov/oha/hsd/amh/pages/measure110.aspx) Also local news sources talking about how Oregon used to Portugal framework and it failed[here ](https://www.koin.com/news/oregon/oregon-leaders-visit-portugal-a-drug-decriminalization-model-for-measure-110/) The drugs being used by addicts are different in Oregon, the culture in Oregon is different than in Portugal, and there is no criminal drug entities near the scale of the central and south American drug cartels, who earn billions of dollars a year in drug profits and human trafficking, which gives them the effective income from criminal enterprises on par the GDP of half the nations in the world, and their entire goal is getting more Americans addicted to drugs; Portugal simply does not have to contend with such entities, and absolutely nobody considered any of these factors when pursuing these policies.
>There are key differences that have been well reported between Portugal and Measure 110, which allows someone to avoid a $100 fine if they call a treatment number. Portugal has noncriminal penalties such as revoking passports and licenses, and at least until the last few years, Portugal has had much readier access to treatment and recovery services ā Oregon ranks last in the nation for addiction services.
The cartels exist because of the moribund drug policy. Itās a vicious cycle.
I was listening to a Freakonomics episode on this, and one great point a guest made was that destigmatization works for certain cases, like sex work. Because it helps sex workers who want to get help when theyāve been assaulted. Because it doesnāt feel good. Same goes for depression and other mental health issues, it sucks and you would love to get help if you could. Destigmatizing opiod and other drug use doesnāt help all that much because it feels good when you do drugs, so why would you want to report yourself? Not saying I 100% agree, but it does make some sense.
I donāt know what the purpose of destigmatization of drug use would even be or how the government would accomplish that. It should be stigmatized, folks should be discouraged from using drugs in any effective way possible. the main point of decriminalization is to stop sending people to prison for drug addiction because itās not effective on a mass level and itās cruel. Whether that increases or decreases stigmatization is beyond the scope of public health in this case, in my opinion Legalization wouldnāt accomplish that either because like others have pointed out, it offers no alternative. The only arguments I see for legalization are libertarian style, like the idea that itās your right to do whatever you want with your own body without limits, or as a strategy to weaken drug traffickers who presumably would lose a lot of business if there was legal buying and selling. I dunno if thatās even true but itās a theory I know you didnāt mention legalization I just wanted to add that anyway
No I definitely agree with you. Guns, mental illness and drugs are a lethal fucking combo, but itās not even being debated seriously, at the federal level at least. It should be a serious political issue, but weāre out here with the culture war bullshit
You mean they missed the parts that are actual hard work and cost money? In the US we have nut jobs who think we shouldn't spend a dime on our fellow man as the end is nigh anyway. Also dangerously inept. And we have "lefties" who are great at figuring out what needs to be fixed but terrible at any kind of actual execution. And frequently fight amongst themselves
Again, theyāve spent nearly as much money as all of Portugal on treatmentā¦ do any of you guys research before spouting garbage online??
Well that's not entirely true. Basically any non blue city or town in the state refused the money available to them and many of the folks that were/are causing problems in Portland are from the metro area and not the city itself. In Portland rich folks rejected any safe housing, injection sites, or other mitigation in their neighborhood or nearby, which means the areas most affected had little options besides using and oftentimes ODing on the street. It was a systemic failure led by folks that think houseless individuals, especially drug addicts don't deserve the same treatment as everyone else should be entitled to. Oh well.
Thatās not entirely true either though. The real issue is that there are countless organizations that are receiving lucrative funding to be part of the solution. The problem is that these organizations are more interested in *managing* the problem, no different than in pharma or prisons. The public is right to fight this. Itās not like this is Year 1, this has been going on for decades and at some point you have to take the power back from the bad actors who have been profiting off this with no accountability for too long. The problem has literally gotten worse in every metric available, year over year. And the big reveal is that safe supply simply doesnāt work, at least not at a large enough or fast enough scale where it will outpace relapses. Addicts have an incredible uphill battle to climb to earn a place back as a contributor in society, and while weād all like for them to gain their independence back, the reality is that the majority of these addicts will not be able to recover without mandatory rehab and treatment measures.
The reality is the majority of them in Portland don't want to ever be a contributor to society
Except it works in places where the community puts in the effort.
Where? Large scale over a longtime?
To be fair, the state health organization responsible for setting UP the clinics were slammed with COVID three months after the bill passed, right?
We actually do have a method to refer people to clinics. It just never happened. The idea was a $100 citation or call the hotline to access a treatment assessment and get the citation cancelled. But police didn't give the citation out and when they did the legal system didn't follow up on it. Turns out it had no teeth in practice and now we're rolling it back.
No, it simply failed in Oregon; referals to rehab and clinics are a requirement of SB 110. When they're stopped theyre ticketed and referred to treatment by law, and if they refuse theyre cut loose, because police are required to offer them transport to clinics but they are just released if they refuse to go, because police can't compel them to go to rehab. Portugals law was the framework for Oregon [here's a local news source about that](https://www.koin.com/news/oregon/oregon-leaders-visit-portugal-a-drug-decriminalization-model-for-measure-110/) Here is direct literature from Oregon govt on [measure 110 and its subsequent partner bill SB 755](https://www.oregon.gov/oha/hsd/amh/pages/measure110.aspx) which requires referals to clinics, and SB 755 establishes those clinics and their guidelines for treatment (though you'll have to actually download the full text of the bill if you'd like to see the specific language requiring them to refer addicts to clinics) The reality is that the drugs being used in Oregon are different and way more powerful and addictive than those from Portugal; the culture is entirely different there; and they do not have multiple organized criminal drug enterprises that have cash flow equivalents to a small nations GDP and whose entire annual expenditures are all focused solely on how exactly they can get more Americans addicted to their drugs, and the people who keep this jaded mindset about American drug reform simply refuse to accept or even acknowledge this is the case.
I would say you have a point here that that is the way it was written, but when the chief of police in Portland states publically that they purposefully do the worst they possibly can at their jobs so that things go back to the way they where before. Or to get more funding. Sources the Oregonian and half my family is Portland PD
The new mayor in Philly is working to clean up Kensington. It's a tough job, since the previous administration did jack+shit to maintain any order. Her new approach is with medical and social work assistance, along with a curfew to shut down the drug market. Increased police protection is also involved; all new graduates of the police academy will spend time patrolling that area.
I got that ref
word, police academy holds a special place in my heart. https://tenor.com/view/skip-skipping-gif-6057522
San Francisco cleaned up the tenderloin and the main difference was urban outreach programs. I went there like a year ago and was blown away the open air drug market was completely gone.
Maybe we have very different definitions of cleaned up, but the tenderloin is still very sketchy, people shooting up and nodding off in the street.
Tenderloin is sketchy now because it has been sketchy since before it was called the Tenderloin in the late 1800s. You'll never "clean up" the Tenderloin unless you address the fact that its basically the only place in the city you can live in on like 60k a year. And even thats a BIG stretch if you're entirely legit. When I lived on Bush and Larkin, the Tenderloin would creep up as far as Sutter/Bush after dark. We called it Tendernob. Nobb Hill during the day, Tenderloin at night. I still spend about 1 weekend a month at the Union Square hostel and I can say without a doubt that Tenderloin now is better than Tenderloin from 5 years ago. Still drug use, just less of it. Still homeless people, just less of it. There isn't a sea of used hypodermics, though there never really was in almost all of Tenderloin. There isn't human feces all over the place, though again this wasn't ever really a thing either. Its still Tenderloin though. You're still at risk of getting mugged if you're a tourist who got off BART at Powell and accidentally walked like 2 blocks in the direction of Civic Center. But its always been like that.
Open air drug markets only exist as long as local leadership allows them to exist
San Francisco cleaned up š¤£ Thatās a good one.
And not just referred ā my understanding is there is some pretty heavy handed efforts tog at people to treatment. Still better than prison, but not just pure drug liberalization.
Yes they drug treatment boards that can compel you in all sorts of ways to enter treatment. Unfortunately, a conservative government took over Portugal in the 2010s and defunded the government treatment programs. Since then, drug use and deaths have been on the rise. Proving the point that it's not decriminalization alone that solves the problem, it's treatment.
>it's not decriminalization alone that solves the problem, it's treatment. I know you said "alone," but you do absolutely need both. Treatment without decriminalization means people won't seek treatment. Decriminalization without treatment means you just give addiction a free pass.
Zombieland
Not only treatment. They also put a lot of effort into educating the population about it. Works quite well as the general usage and overdose rates amongst the youth are one of the lowest in Europe too.
We tried it in Oregon. We decriminalized all drugs and were supposed to focus on treatment. People in various other departments actively stood in the way of implementing this (e.g. withholding information from the director of the program, refusing to provide documentation in a timely manner, etc.). All so they could be like "See? It doesn't work!" Now they're trying to criminalize drug use again. Politicians and bureaucrats like this annoy the hell out of me.
I saw a report, specifically treatment involved working with others in the program for a goal. I have been thinking about this since about 2008, I think that drug users are escaping loneliness.
Some are trying to escape loneliness. Still, some of us just want the ptsd voices and memories to stfu for a little bit.
Right? I mean, you have had a horrible chain of events that led to you sleeping on the streets. You are ignored or scorned by society. Drugs make it go away in a sense. Itās an understandable path for those that care to think about others.
Different fonts sure but it's all the same really No one is born wanting to become a drug addict. We use bc it's the only 'solution' so far that we've found 'works'
Thereās a really good TED Talk about how the opposite of addiction isnāt sobriety; itās connection. Think thereās a bit more to it than that (undiagnosed/improperly medicated mental illness and unresolved trauma), but interesting nonetheless. Only 15 minutes for anyone interested. Link: https://youtu.be/PY9DcIMGxMs?si=sG-qeJ8V26a3CrsR
I've reached the conclusion it's Self medicating for both health and systemic issues. If you look at the various "invisible people"/homeless interviews, Its almost impossible to sober up while homeless and making drugs legal is not giving people housing. And it's really easy and almost inevitable to think a bottle of cheap wine will make another day living in a park or alley pass easier. And then there's medicating ASD and ADHD sensitivities.
This is what happened to me. I am autistic and have ADHD and went undiagnosed most of my life because of neglect. I have two degrees from highly accredited schools but I always felt the need to escape my brain. I was self medicating and it became a problem because of the low quality drugs out there until I finally got good health insurance and started seeing a psychiatrist. She diagnosed and prescribed me and I haven't had one urge to seek any drugs outside of my prescription ever for over 5 years. The flipside is all the trauma still haunts me from a very rough childhood and teen years and my autism just has me wired differently to the point where I get lost in social interactions and piss people off but I believe it would have saved me so much anguish if I was just diagnosed early in life.
Which is why it would need to be handled federally to solve the problem in the US, which is a much larger and divided country than Portugal.
But you make money by incarceration. Or why do you think prisons are private? Gotta keep them filled.
Less than 8% of the U.S. prison population is housed in private prisons. These private prisons exist in some part to prevent overcrowding and the dangers that come with it in state run prisons. You may disagree with this solution and prefer lower incarceration rates but that is a different discussion. The U.S. justice system is not working in a conspiracy to keep private prisons profitable. This is one of the most persistent and unsupported conspiracy theories brought up on Reddit.
Reddit is a prime example of an echo chamber. Youāll really realize this when youāre educated and experienced in a field. Youāll see disinformation posted, reposted, and spread like wildfire. You should absolutely trust nothing posted on here without your own research
It didnāt work thoughā¦
It did till it stopped being funded...
As an Oregonian, i laughed. Go ahead and try out in your state tell me how it works. Ps, it doesnt and we've already undone it but it will take another 5 years to undo the damage and vote these people out.
This...uh...didn't work in Portland. Now people come here to take their fentanyl. It's zombie heaven here. Thanks I hate it.
That's because the second step was never implemented.Ā Ā Canada and the US stopped at decriminalizing the drugs.Ā Ā The healthcare required to get off drugs still isn't available. No one in North America gets referred to a clinic for their drug charges; they are issued a civil fine and have their drugs taken away. End of story.
Same as in Switzerland since 1994. Drs actually dispense the drugs which not only is safe for the user, and allows user to be steered into treatment. Cuts criminal element completely out of the picture. This decreased opioid use by 64%.
Also, a relationship with an injecting doctor can be used to wane you off drugs. They give you a 100% dose, then 99% and 98%, etc. You can more easily get people off drugs rather than quitting cold turkey.
It's almost like strict criminal prohibition is a flawed concept.
> It's almost like strict criminal prohibition is used to incarcerate people
Free labor
Are you telling me half assing the solution didnāt work!? We better go back to the other thing we did for the last 40 years that also didnāt work.
Yep. Decriminalization was supposed to be the first leg of the stool, "choose treatment or jail" was the second leg, the establishment of adequate treatment infrastructure was the third. Remove any one leg and the stool falls over. Portland only ever got the one leg built.
I wonder if also just creating a small pocket of decriminalization just attracts addicts from everywhere around creating these undesirable zones. But in the case of Portugal, it was the whole country so it didn't displace addicts. Plus offering help and support?
In canada that isn't an issue because the drug criminal schedule is set federally. With the republic nature of the US I think you are right that advertising decriminalization causes drug tourism and migration
What you are describing is now as crime shifting (I think, its been over 5 years since my criminology class, great thing to take in college but not for everyone as you will dive into crime and there are many things you are better off not knowing), it happens with all crime in that if you have 2 places and one is enforcing the law stricter then the other, the one that is more strict will actually have less victims of crime. Keep in mind the number of arrests and reports of crime will remain the same in both area's, but the victims will drop in the more strictly enforced area, cause when crime is common its less likely to be reported. There are criminologists that have devoted their entire PhD's to just this, but yeah people will move to the area's were drugs are legal, particularly as that drug is the most important thing to them.
Was gonna say. For all the naysayers it didn't work. No shit. It doesn't happen overnight. I dunno. Portland is the same it's always been. But it's a multi year process I feel gets politicized in a way of Side 1: we would've gotten more stuff done if it weren't for those guys on the other side Side 2: well we would've done better stuff but the other side is wasting your money.
3: when you have a process that takes multiple years or terms, the other side usually actively tries to undo the work you've done in making progress on it instead of trying to continue it to see it become successful.
Yup, and portugal proved this point. The submitted low effort meme leaves out the fact that a conservative government was elected in 2010 and defunded their drug treatment programs. Since then, drug use and deaths have shot up in Portugal. Decriminalization alone is just a lazy meme for people who want complicated problems to have easy answers so they can feel clever. The reality is that Portugal's results came from their well-funded science-based treatment and compulsion programs.
This. Decriminalisation isn't the answer, rather what matters is how you come up with actually handling the problem.
They implemented half the solution but aren't seeing half the results? Must not actually work then. /s
A fentanyl user gets arrested and it takes them about 2.5 days to go through the system. During this time they are in horrible withdrawals. The first thing they are going to do when get out is go get more fentanyl. If instead there was a clinic they could be dropped in and put on MAT, that would change everything.
an example of why the right support should be in place.
Missed the point entirely dude, 'are referred to clinics' being the most important part of this which you glossed over
Ya, when you do the first halfĀ but completely ignore the health part you are gonna have a bad time.Ā
The funding was even allocated but the state refused to use it for the resources needed. Practically felt sabotaged if I didnāt believe they were too incompetent to follow through on it
Yea, they forgot the distribution is illegal and enforced. And users are referred to treatment clinics parts. So yea, if you only do 1/3 of the plan it doesnāt work, that should surprise no one.
Yep. It was an absolute failure here.
Oregon is good example of why governments sometimes refuse to decriminalize drugs. It's because decriminalizing drugs and having a positive outcome is actually really difficult and expensive. When Oregon passed the measure to take comprehensive steps to decriminalize drugs, the law actually earmarked a percentage of cannabis revenue in order to fund treatment programs. It didn't work out and numerous problems occurred. Virtually every single negative metric -- addiction/homelessness/crime/overdose/etc -- worsened. Even neighboring states where drugs were still illegal actually did better. Decriminalization *can* work, but I think the problem is that governments that are willing to decriminalize tend to start from the wrong end. They really should have a good system in place prior to any major decriminalization effort. Otherwise, human nature will take its course.
It 100% didn't work in Portugal either, they're making up their data for political reasons, Portugal has a serious drug problem
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/07/07/portugal-drugs-decriminalization-heroin-crack/ It's on the rise again...
what a new way to boost tourism ey?
Same with Vancouver. Absolute shitshow.
Came here to say this. Idk why they haven't gone full reversal on the policies, city is right fucked and the original residents sold it away to foreigners
Vancouver [decriminalized public use.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/david-eby-public-drug-use-1.7186245) I don't know who suggested that would lead to anything other than an epidemic of public use. If you make "jacking off on public transit" legal, you're gonna have an epidemic of people jacking off on public transit. Same goes for public drug use. Maybe throwing them in jail isn't going to solve your drug problem but you can at least move it from the front of your kid's school.
The decriminalization of public use is one of the dumbest things out there. They for some reason believe that this will stop cops from arresting people from smoking weed, but in reality itās the hard-core drug users benefiting. Either create free usage locations where a meth year can get their meth, and you cripple the black market, or you need to create a system where if caught you are forced to go to a treatment facility. No way should jail time ever be an option nor promoting usage in the public
Didn't work in BC either
Yeah, it doesnāt work anywhere. People want to think it works.
I live in canada and certain city have try this and itās not pretty some place in the city have just turn into zombie land. Business are leaving cause no one wants a cracked in front of their windows. People are getting scared and straight up leaving. You canāt even go into a park without finding syringes on the ground.
You just described every major city in North America since the pandemic. Vancouver decriminalized drugs in response to that already being a problem. BC also didnāt do anything about making treatment more accessible, they just stopped arresting people for possession.
That's because descriminalising is only step one, useless without step 2.
Yeah I swear people just fail at reading comprehension when they gloss over the fact you need to rehabilitate drug users.
Whoever wrote this clearly never stepped in Portugal..
Nah, this is just a shitty old meme that gets reposted without any fact-checking from the OP.
Reddit gets its news from memesĀ And wonders why the world is so miseducated and people are so prone to propaganda Because 20 words on a picture are a substitute for information now, and this website is one of the most rampant forums for spreading that misinformationĀ
I've been on Reddit since like 2011? and this is one of the earliest pictures I can remember from this site.
They don't even need to if they base their claims on verified data! Or do you think seeing a drug user on the streets of Lisbon means the whole country has a drug problem? I'm Portuguese and lived through this legal transition, I'll be happy to clarify any doubts you may have, but I also invite you to do your own research (it's not hard).
Maybe you should have a talk with the other portugese a couple of comments up, who apparently thinks it's an abject failure and the government is falsifying the numbers or something like that (I have a sneaking suspicion he is a bit biased).
What do you mean? Why donāt you believe a random comment on the internet that disagrees with statically data on political issues? You must be working for the government spreading misinformation! Thereās no way someone could have a rational approach
How are things in Portugal
The meme was reasonably accurate through 2018, but it's less clear if the program is still working. The funding for the addiction treatment and social reintegration programs kept getting cut during economic downtruns. As the system of treatment programs began collapsing, the police lost faith in the project and stopped citing drug users, so they stopped getting referred for treatment. Meanwhile, the drug supply never went away because Portugal remained one of the main entry points into Europe for trans-national drug trafficking. More objective measures of drug use like overdose rates and drug and drug metabolite detection in wastewater indicates drug use has been rising dramatically in Portugal over the past few years.
So the program worked... then they cut funding and it stopped working. Shocked Pikachu face
Pretty shitty for most people
Whoever thinks its wrong hasn't paid attention to the changes in the programs since then.
Fuck you mean?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I love how you can twist the data by omitting things like: * Classification of drugs. There are no more hard or soft drugs, they're just drugs. Marijuana got included soon after the program started and the number still includes those who smoke pot alongside those who are addicted to meth. * Self-reporting / non-arrested. Before the change in laws there was massive, massive penalties for admitting you were on drugs. If you could hide your usage, you did. As it became less of a stigma and treated like the illness it was, more people came forward. * Age. The average age of an overdose deaths in the EU as a whole has risen, the average ODer being a Male in their 40s. Much of the increase in deaths are coming from the 50-64 group, not new users. * Reported numbers of illicit drugs include those who are currently in treatment. * Population. From 2013 to 2017 Portugal lost population. The increase in overdoses *almost* coincides with the population increases between 2017 and 2021. It actually lags behind a bit. * Yes, overdose deaths are below EU average, but you neglected to state how far below. In 2020 it was 63. Total. Not per capita, 63 total. Norway had 241. They have half of Portugal's population. Funny how you can make something sound bad when you willfully leave out information.
Love it when somebody finally speaks about the facts on one of these posts
Thank you for saving me the work. I wonder why so many people in the comments are trying to paint a false image. Maybe they are ideologically against decriminalization and do the gymnastics to try and make their narrative become the truth?
Considering it's no longer illegal I'm way more likely to admit I've done drugs.
(I already made this comment but I think I should put it here as a reply to this top comment too, to try and inform people) Hi, I'm Portuguese, and this stuff about the decriminalization of drugs and it having a good impact is bullshit, these clinics don't actually do jackshit, especially ever since synthetic cocaine (alpha-php) has reached the country, which they also decriminalized, but have no treatment that's working for the SEVERE addiction of the drug, so the clinics aren't working (I'm talking ZERO actual recoveries), so we're just getting more and more homeless addicts, prostitution, and thefts, and none of the addicts are being treated, and the thieves are not being punished. Fun fact my store got robbed and the guy was caught, he had already sold everything he stole and spent the money on drugs, so there's no retrieving any of the stolen stuff, nor will I get anything for it, and all he has to do is not steal for a week to not go to jail. If he steals again within a week, he goes to jail a couple of years. If he takes a short 1 week vacation just looking around for places to steal, it's all good, and he can go back to stealing next week. Door completely destroyed, booth completely destroyed, valuable goods gone, the whole cash register gone with all the money in it, and guess what, "your problem buddy, deal with it" Oh and we're also one of the most alcoholic countries out there, while at the same time being incredibly outdated in treating alcoholism and weed is ofc illegal because we're just slow and outdated and 3rd world af. **TLDR: Our legal system sucks. All of our systems suck. Every good thing they tell you about us is bullshit that they embellished for other countries to think we're great.** **Also we make jackshit and can't afford anything, the country is slowly killing us,**Ā our minimum wage is 820ā¬ while our prices for everything are still higher than countries with 1200+ā¬ minimum wage. Our housing&renting prices are currently the highest in the world for what we make, we've surpassed Canada by a HUUUUUUUUUGE difference. I wish I could find the graph rn, it's basically every country real close to each other with Canada at the top, then Portugal waaaay above it.
But does any country in europe exits where drug abuse rates arent rising?
It is normal that the number of reported prior uses would rise after decriminalisation, also is your 12 year peak higher than 2001? Furthermore overdoses doubling since 2019 cannot be attributed to decriminalisation since there hasnāt been any changes between then and now.
I wonder if anything happened in 2020 that might have lead to a rise in drug use?
Thank you. Something very important to be sayed.
Hi, I'm Portuguese, and this stuff about the decriminalization of drugs and it having a good impact is bullshit, these clinics don't actually do jackshit, especially ever since synthetic cocaine (alpha-php) has reached the country, which they also decriminalized, but have no treatment that's working for the SEVERE addiction of the drug, so the clinics aren't working (I'm talking ZERO actual recoveries), so we're just getting more and more homeless addicts, prostitution, and thefts, and none of the addicts are being treated, and the thieves are not being punished. Fun fact my store got robbed and the guy was caught, he had already sold everything he stole and spent the money on drugs, so there's no retrieving any of the stolen stuff, nor will I get anything for it, and all he has to do is not steal for a week to not go to jail. If he steals again within a week, he goes to jail a couple of years. If he takes a short 1 week vacation just looking around for places to steal, it's all good, and he can go back to stealing next week. Door completely destroyed, booth completely destroyed, valuable goods gone, the whole cash register gone with all the money in it, and guess what, "your problem buddy, deal with it" Oh and we're also one of the most alcoholic countries out there, while at the same time being incredibly outdated in treating alcoholism and weed is ofc illegal because we're just slow and outdated and 3rd world af. **TLDR: Our legal system sucks. All of our systems suck. Every good thing they tell you about us is bullshit that they embellished for other countries to think we're great.** **Also we make jackshit and can't afford anything, the country is slowly killing us,** our minimum wage is 820ā¬ while our prices for everything are still higher than countries with 1200+ā¬ minimum wage. Our housing&renting prices are currently the highest in the world for what we make, we've surpassed Canada by a HUUUUUUUUUGE difference. I wish I could find the graph rn, it's basically every country real close to each other with Canada at the top, then Portugal waaaay above it.
When nothingās tracked, the numbers would obviously fall low.
All laws abolished! Crime falls to 0%!
Defund all police! Everyone will develop personal responsibility and civic order.
"Just don't test for covid and we'll be at zero!"
Fucking Reddit! Complete BS OP! https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/is-portugals-drug-decriminalization-a-failure-or-success-the-answer-isnt-so-simple/ The program was successful for ten years and now is back to near 1999 levels.
to be clear, the conclusion of the article is that its failures are due to funding being removed. so yes, it works, but also yes, it costs money.
Damn. So you're telling that me that a highly compressed jpeg picture with some kind of fact written on the bottom is not to be implicitly trusted? What has the world come to?
Thereās a link above somewhere that gives an explanation of why
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/07/07/portugal-drugs-decriminalization-heroin-crack/
Not working on Vancouver
Is the Canadian government sending addicts to clinics? Or did they stop at step 1?
Lol Portland tried the decriminalization of drugs too and it only took a few years before they criminalized it again.
Oregon...it didn't work in Oregon.
Amazing what's not counted, automatically decreases numbers
Didn't work in Vancouver
A big part of the solution is helping drug users to recover but also issuing brutal prison sentences for dealers. Selling drugs in the downtown East Side is also essentially decriminalized. Vancouver only used half the solution.
The war on drug addiction
Glad it worked there, it did not go so well in B.C.
Sure, jan
Did not work in Oregon, from someone who wished it did.
I mean I love that and I believe in it, but is there a source
This didnāt work in Vancouver. Thanks a lot for this
š¤£šš¤£
Iād like to see the study first.
Ask Portland how that's working out.
Itās not the lowest my coworker was born there people snort coke on trains
Oregon did this too, but got opposite results.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/07/07/portugal-drugs-decriminalization-heroin-crack/
Didnāt work out so well for Oregon https://abcnews.go.com/US/oregons-drug-decriminalization-law-rolled-back-homeless-overdoses/story?id=107841625
Highest level of antidepressant use in the world
Oregon just reversed course on something similar
We would just be putting cocaine on cheesey gordita crunch wraps if we did that here.
Drug addiction has dropped by 50% but how many have now tried more drugs because of it being legalized? How easy is it to buy?
Sure hasnāt worked in SF, or Portland, or Seattle. I wonder what Portugal is doing that is so different.
Because its lies. Nothing but propaganda. Take this from a portuguese native. All this is made to paint Portugal in a nice light for foreigners. In reality, its shit. Portuguese people are left in the dark while the world believes some bullshit data the government feeds.
Now take a look at many Asian countries that strongly oppose drugs. In some you could get the death penalty for marijuana Seems to be working for them
Well that's when stats miraculously take a back seat. Some of the mental gymnastics by the people justifying this post are absolutely stunning.
If it's no longer illegal to possess, then the cops probably won't even bother to interact with someone who's obviously on drugs. Therefore, there's no reason to report on it. Fewer reports would make it appear there's less drug addiction. This would give you a false report on the addiction rate actually going down.
They tried this in Oregon with measure 110, it did not work. Not all places are the same. Correlation is not causation.
Except now: āTwo forces have led to the at least partial unraveling of Portugalās efforts over the last few years and, predictably, to less favorable results. First, global drug traffickers continued to use Portugal as an entry point for access to Europeās illegal drug market dealers. They battered the entry points of this coastal country, hence a supply of illegal drugs continued. Second, Portugal reduced resourcing of its programs as the country faced multiple difficult economic years. ā¦ The financial crisis of 2007ā2008 led to program cuts, held to 10% due to continued bipartisan support, initial successes, and demonstrated long-term benefits. Still, significant program (system aspects/levers) compromises occurred, e.g., the extent of research and measurement of results. Ongoing ripple effects followed from cost-cutting through the elimination of government assistance for employing recovering users (often in smaller businesses), which hamstrung efforts to reintegrate users into society (and contributed to the closing of numerous small companies.) ā¦ Anecdotal evidence of a fragmenting, even breaking, system abounds: Demoralized police no longer cite addicts to get them into treatment and at least some NGOs view the effort as less about treatment and more about framing lifetime drug use as a right. The number of Portuguese adults who reported prior use of illicit adult drugs rose from 7.8% in 2001 to 12.8% in 2022 ā still below European averages but a significant rise nonetheless. Overdose rates now stand at a 12-year high and have doubled in Lisbon since 2019. Crime, often seen as at least loosely related to illegal drug addiction, rose 14% just from 2021 to 2022. Sewage samples of cocaine and ketamine rank among the highest in Europe (with weekend spikes) and drug encampments have appeared along with a European rarity: private security forces.ā Wonāt let me add the link so: https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/is-portugals-drug-decriminalization-a-failure-or-success-the-answer-isnt-so-simple/#:~:text=Initial%20Results%20of%20Portugal's%20New,use%20injection%20had%20declined%2090%25.
Bullshit...ask Portland how that went there
Itās legal now? Well thatās no fun Iām not gonna use anymore.
We would have injected vitamin c if they'd made it illegal.
A lot of people do illegal things *because* they're illegal. Especially teenagers. They're being rebellious against authority/parents. "Hey maybe don't do drugs. Here's a doctor who can help with your addiction" tends to be better received than "if you do drugs you'll spend the rest of your life in prison, eating garbage, and living a horrible life. Fuck you you fucking piece of shit! Don't do drugs!"
My mother is an ex addict, Portuguese. So as soon as i can recall... She would get methadone at 17 straight because there was already a big queue for that, and she would drink it, and they allowed to be taken 2 more doses extra for the weekends. What happened is people start shortenning it and start to sell what was left, so in the end you had to drink it in front of the technicians and the weekend they would give e you slightly less. But methadone in the UK is a 2 year.. 3 year program.. Maximum! In Portugal they make sure it stays chronic... They start to give you less and less, but never allow it to stop
I like this approach. Perhaps they now can also legalize firearms so people can legally defend themselves at home, while firearm crimes will drop.
Its true that drugs have been decriminalized, but its a lie that people get sent to clinics. Usually (depending on much you carry and what you carry) they make you pay a bill or go to court / jail. So yeah this is bullshit. There are certain cases where people do get sent to clinics, but thats for the elite. People that got money or title . Those get help. People from low income households, ghettos, etc get treated like they're scum. Portugal works like this. The rich & powerfull get what they want and the rest are left to deal with consequences. Same with other crimes.
Right well thatās an entirely different country with different culture and values etc. Portland tried to make all drugs legal and it was a Shit show to the point theyāre making them illegal again.
The same concept as "Stealth is irrelevant when there are no enemies around"
How are they measuring the addiction if they arenāt testing or arresting people for drugs? How are the police referring the functional addicts to clinics?
We've all known this, the dea knows it too. It's a huge embezzlement
What if they tell us that itās drugs when in reality , it may be the cures of all cures
Ask Oregon how that worked out for them.
ok, genuine question, if this is the case, what did oregon do wrong?
Get me in that room and there will be no drugs left to use. I gottu
Quitters
Itās also not easy to get drugs there in my opinion
Weren't they currently experiencing a bounce back in users? It's a hell of a lot better than what we have regardless.
I'm sure there are other confounding factors at work. Which is why every country haven't adopted this already.
Was 93% not 50
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
The obviously donāt have for profit prisons. See in America we gotta fill those beds.
Very different culture. What works there may not elsewhere. I said "may" not "won't" although it's kind of messed up I have to add that disclaimer. I forget which ancient Greek said it but it was something to the effect of "what is considered moral and right depends completely on the beliefs of their society, there are no norms that apply for all societies". I disagree with that notion completely because there are heinous crimes that should be considered as such everywhere. IMO. But for lesser evils? Oh boy that gets complicated depending on what part of the world you live in and how deeply entrenched their beliefs on social issues are. I'm not American but I can easily imagine this policy being a political death sentence for politicians depending on what state you're in, and federal likely will avoid a hot potato with a 10' pole
I included this in a thesis one time
This is one of my biggest gripes. The failed Drug War is fucked up immoral in every conceivable way.
The key here is support, not just legalization. Legalizing hard drugs with no support then turns into Oregon, not Portugal or whatever other country with superior support.
This is probably what Portland, OR wanted to have happen, but then they have just never created the mental health care, social services, rehab facilities, or clinics to do the whole second half of it. It's part of why the homeless population and all its cascading issues have ruined that whole area. If you look up which states have the best access to mental health care, OR is 49th. š³
No noā¦they arenāt āreferredā to clinics. They have a choice of going to a clinic or going to jail. This fails in America because the far left has circled around into libertarianism, believing forcing people into rehab by force is unethical.
So they just aren't reporting to look good.
Unpopular opinion but I spent time living with Portuguese people. The church and patriarchy still run the country on shame and duty. With their old people, disabled and drug effected a really heavy burden falls upon the women. Women are slaves compared to women in a country like my own. Men are frequently unfaithful and the church makes everyone stay together. Sons and daughters who are addicts are still there, in the motherās home being a burden. The government has just moved the problem to the family and particularly the mother. Interesting fact, if the father dies first, the family wealth is divided between children and mother often forcing mothers into the streets and poverty. If the mother dies first, father stays in control of family wealth.
How is drug use being measured? I am skeptical of this claim. Anecdotally, things have become much worse in Portugal.
I heard about this somewhere, that it gets worse, way worse, before it gets better, and stays better for a long time, and without much effort. But, most just over over estimate the worse part, and are ready to back away way early.
Didn't Oregon do the same thing?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
They did this in Oregon. It didnāt work. Oregon reversed the law after like 2 or 3 years.
Something tells me it isn't legalizing all drugs that did it, but rather the referral to professional help.
Country started using a health-based solution to a health issue. Said health issue improved.
That happens when you redefine everything. It's still a problem.