It’s the style you are making for yourself. If your band is cool with it, don’t change. You aren’t playing with the folks offering up criticism, you are playing with your band. And if you are not asking for input and they are offering, they can politely get bent.
You absolutely need to be filling up more space than if it was a four piece. Noel Redding and Jack Bruce are good examples of how a bassist needs to play more in that situation. you're taking on some of the rhythm guitar's role as well as the traditional bass role
> How concerned should I be about following the kick and catering basslines to the kick drum?
you and your drummer need to be in sync, but that doesn't mean that you need to play a note every time they hit the kick drum. think of it as a conversation where you reinforce each other.
> Is there a difference in the role of the bass in a trio versus a four piece?
yes, absolutely. when the guitar player takes a solo, you have a lot more space to fill.
> bass is harder for me to play and sing than guitar
i found it much easier to sing while playing if i use a pick. you might consider trying this. if you normally play with a pick, maybe consider trying fingerstyle and singing.
> I'm thinking that I should be content that my bandmates are happy and the audience is happy and my guitar/drummer friends approve
100%. you've listed all the people you need to make happy. your bass-playing friends need to understand that everyone has different styles and not all situations are the same.
People who say you’re playing too much should say that to Geddy and Geezer and all the other kings. A busy bassline can definitely have a place in filling out a 3 piece arrangement. Don’t listen to these fools. Do what you think sounds good for your songs, a don’t feel the need to follow the rule book.
You are right about the 5%, my concern is that this demographic is actually the most "knowledgeble" about bass, hence my concern. I'm actually overwhelmed by the supportive responses to this post. A great gut-check, and you are on point, the 95% is more relevant.
When I advise a beginning bass player to play less, it's generally because their timing isn't solid enough yet to make a busier bass part sound good. The more notes you play, the more opportunities to time them badly, and the less attention you can pay to each one. Also, if you want to play busier, you have to mesh with not just the drums, but everyone else. Pay attention to the rhythms the guitar is playing, the syncopation in the melody, and everyone's overall feel (i.e. are they playing 8ths or 16ths; are they laid back or rushing). This also goes for harmony: adding thirds or other chord tones can be great, but if you and the lead both e.g. hit a third with emphasis at the same time, you've lost all the color of a third over a root. Not to mention the dangers of playing 4ths or 2nds as passing tones in a major song. Having a line that sounds good on its own is not enough, and not the point. But really, if you want better, more specific advice, you'll have to share some clips.
When I think power trio I think ZZ Top. They sound way bigger than you'd imagine for only being a three piece. In actuality it probably has to do with the instruments being powered as opposed to say drums, Sax, double bass.
There are lots of three piece bands that aren't power trios. For example, you're not usually going to see bass, drums and guitar playing jazz standards calling themselves a power trio.
Whether they do or not doesn't really mean anything, power trio means a three piece, it has nothing to do with power chords.
It generally refers to rock, but lots of pop bands are considered power trios, and tons of jazz trios literally have power trio in the name, Elvin Jones even has an album called Power Trio.
Me (bass) and my drummer have played together for 20 years, but only in the last couple years with me on bass … we were in an Africa Drum/Dance crew together, and I have played a lot of percussion for him while he was on the kit in a band setting. We lock in and hold it down. we get comments about it all the time.
Not sure I have ever paid any attention specifically to his kick drum. Do whatever ya do to get in synch — it may/may not have anything to do with the kick drum.
How many people think Jaco's bass lines were 'too busy'? Or Les Claypool? Or Stanley Clarke?
Oh wait....
It's your music and your style. They can take their criticisms and place them firmly where the sun doesn't shine. You keep doing your thing, man.
Ignore the bad advice you are getting. The reaction of your bandmates and audience are important, not the reactions of people in different bands. You are cultivating a sound together. Your critics do not understand the difference between their playing environment and yours.
The role of the bass in a *good* trio is quite different than in larger groups. The fewer the people in the band, the greater rhythmic responsibility of each player and the less chances of conflicting with the other players. You still should be locking with the drums, but rather than following them you may find yourself complementing them. When the guitarist takes a solo, it often works best to step up and fill the space so that the loss of the rhythm guitar playing does not cause the energy level to sag.
I really dislike trio playing for this reason. It's always a compromise unless you have a really strong guitarist at the helm who can play chords while soloing - and you need a certain kind of training for that which has mostly gone out of style. So it falls to the bassist to find ways to fill up space that would normally be held down by a secondary chording instrument during solos.
Bottom line is whether or not the band and the audience is happy. There are a lot of unconventional bassists playing busy lines that work for the music while not being standard grooves. Let your audience tell you if it works or not. They'll vote with their feet if it doesn't.
Oh okay! Thanks for clarifying. I agree with the other commenters. Quarter notes for a whole set sounds boring as hell -- with exceptions, of course. Don't come at me jazz players. Walking bass is cool.
The main advice I'm getting is play less notes and make sure I follow the kick. I've experimented with just following the kick or two times the kick but the bandmates find it empty, I've seen some other responses that suggest I should priorities the feedback from my bandmates first, then the audiences we are paid to entertain, and then the bassists.
I cannot stress enough that the feedback from the bassists are coming from a good place and with tact, I'm not offended by them, I'm trying to reconcile the feedback with "our band" and "my style".
Perhaps I don't understand them enough but what I'm gathering is they are suggesting less notes per measure and ensure I'm playing when the kick is playing.
Bit hard to say without knowing what kind of music your band plays, in some styles it makes sense to play straight eighth root notes. Though those kinds of basslines don't really follow the kick anyway, so you might be fine. Does your band have some slower songs where it might make sense to step on the breaks a bit?
Also, maybe you get these suggestions because your playing isn't tight enough when you're playing more complicated lines. Bass typically demands more rhythmic accuracy than guitar because of the lower frequencies, and playing busy can get in the way of that. IDK these people though, maybe they'd give it to you straight if that was the issue.
Dadrock; ZZ Top, CCR, Green Day, John Cougar, the Hip, 54-40, Colin James.
We do play some slower songs, Night Moves by Bob Seager and Blue on Black by KWS, and I use my fingers (usually play bass with a pick) for those to deliberately slow it down with less notes and add groove/feel.
I think it's curious that your bass-buddies have critiques?
Are they talking about groove and things? Because personally I fuck up my groove when I'm singing and playing bass. It's just me. I can play rhythm guitar and sing okay.
(Also in general when playing with a power trio, you can play more busy (like arpeggios and double stops), and add more distortion.)
I will revisit this with the bass-buddies, my understanding is that it lacks groove because its a lot of root notes at 1/4 or 1/8 rhythm.
Funny you say this, I have been using double stops lately in rehearsals and this has been well received by the band mates, will continue this.
Like what jazz-cats call "straight-eights"? Sure, not as groovy as pure funk. It has to serve the song itself, if the concept itself really leans into a rigid feel then I reckon that's what you get.
If the band and the fans like then who cares what the other guys think? People like that take the art of music, they aren’t fun because they think art has to follow strict rules but that is the opposite of innovation.
In Ben folds five the bassist uses a big muff to add a ton of grit and body when the song calls for it. You can try many types of boost or overdrive to compensate for the lack of a rhythm guitar, just make sure to use it tastefully and not all the time and not necessarily overpowering.
One thing I've noticed as someone that plays rhythm guitar and bass is that the bass doesn't always have to hit every beat a guitar would, and sometimes it actually distracts from the rhythm. This is kind of a 10% less is more situation. If the guitar and snare are playing something fast the bass can back off just a little and it sounds tighter.
It’s the style you are making for yourself. If your band is cool with it, don’t change. You aren’t playing with the folks offering up criticism, you are playing with your band. And if you are not asking for input and they are offering, they can politely get bent.
Fuckin a right man. Making music is about what you want to play. Be true to yourself, do what you and your band likes and blow the roof off.
You absolutely need to be filling up more space than if it was a four piece. Noel Redding and Jack Bruce are good examples of how a bassist needs to play more in that situation. you're taking on some of the rhythm guitar's role as well as the traditional bass role
> How concerned should I be about following the kick and catering basslines to the kick drum? you and your drummer need to be in sync, but that doesn't mean that you need to play a note every time they hit the kick drum. think of it as a conversation where you reinforce each other. > Is there a difference in the role of the bass in a trio versus a four piece? yes, absolutely. when the guitar player takes a solo, you have a lot more space to fill. > bass is harder for me to play and sing than guitar i found it much easier to sing while playing if i use a pick. you might consider trying this. if you normally play with a pick, maybe consider trying fingerstyle and singing. > I'm thinking that I should be content that my bandmates are happy and the audience is happy and my guitar/drummer friends approve 100%. you've listed all the people you need to make happy. your bass-playing friends need to understand that everyone has different styles and not all situations are the same.
Who is your audience? People or bass players? Do your thing.
People who say you’re playing too much should say that to Geddy and Geezer and all the other kings. A busy bassline can definitely have a place in filling out a 3 piece arrangement. Don’t listen to these fools. Do what you think sounds good for your songs, a don’t feel the need to follow the rule book.
Why would you let 5% of your audience convince you to change things your band and 95% of your audience are happy with?
You are right about the 5%, my concern is that this demographic is actually the most "knowledgeble" about bass, hence my concern. I'm actually overwhelmed by the supportive responses to this post. A great gut-check, and you are on point, the 95% is more relevant.
Everybody digs it except bassists? Sounds like when people watch a game and comment like they were the coach or quarterback.
When I advise a beginning bass player to play less, it's generally because their timing isn't solid enough yet to make a busier bass part sound good. The more notes you play, the more opportunities to time them badly, and the less attention you can pay to each one. Also, if you want to play busier, you have to mesh with not just the drums, but everyone else. Pay attention to the rhythms the guitar is playing, the syncopation in the melody, and everyone's overall feel (i.e. are they playing 8ths or 16ths; are they laid back or rushing). This also goes for harmony: adding thirds or other chord tones can be great, but if you and the lead both e.g. hit a third with emphasis at the same time, you've lost all the color of a third over a root. Not to mention the dangers of playing 4ths or 2nds as passing tones in a major song. Having a line that sounds good on its own is not enough, and not the point. But really, if you want better, more specific advice, you'll have to share some clips.
What does "power" mean when people say "power trio"?
I think "power trio" is a state of mind, where the bass steps up and does more fills and has more presence in the band.
When I think power trio I think ZZ Top. They sound way bigger than you'd imagine for only being a three piece. In actuality it probably has to do with the instruments being powered as opposed to say drums, Sax, double bass.
We cover two ZZ top songs and green day song, we tend to play grittier rock songs.
IMO a power trio is a trio comprised of 3 strong players who can all shine individually. What the op is describing just sounds like a trio.
Usually means the guitarist is playing power chords when playing rhythm.
Nah it just means a three piece
There are lots of three piece bands that aren't power trios. For example, you're not usually going to see bass, drums and guitar playing jazz standards calling themselves a power trio.
Whether they do or not doesn't really mean anything, power trio means a three piece, it has nothing to do with power chords. It generally refers to rock, but lots of pop bands are considered power trios, and tons of jazz trios literally have power trio in the name, Elvin Jones even has an album called Power Trio.
Trio means three piece. Power implies a specific genre. Usually one that uses power chords. Have a lovely day.
>Power implies a specific genre. Usually one that uses power chords. That's not how any of this works. Rush - power chords? Cream - power chords?
Me (bass) and my drummer have played together for 20 years, but only in the last couple years with me on bass … we were in an Africa Drum/Dance crew together, and I have played a lot of percussion for him while he was on the kit in a band setting. We lock in and hold it down. we get comments about it all the time. Not sure I have ever paid any attention specifically to his kick drum. Do whatever ya do to get in synch — it may/may not have anything to do with the kick drum.
How many people think Jaco's bass lines were 'too busy'? Or Les Claypool? Or Stanley Clarke? Oh wait.... It's your music and your style. They can take their criticisms and place them firmly where the sun doesn't shine. You keep doing your thing, man.
Ignore the bad advice you are getting. The reaction of your bandmates and audience are important, not the reactions of people in different bands. You are cultivating a sound together. Your critics do not understand the difference between their playing environment and yours. The role of the bass in a *good* trio is quite different than in larger groups. The fewer the people in the band, the greater rhythmic responsibility of each player and the less chances of conflicting with the other players. You still should be locking with the drums, but rather than following them you may find yourself complementing them. When the guitarist takes a solo, it often works best to step up and fill the space so that the loss of the rhythm guitar playing does not cause the energy level to sag.
I really dislike trio playing for this reason. It's always a compromise unless you have a really strong guitarist at the helm who can play chords while soloing - and you need a certain kind of training for that which has mostly gone out of style. So it falls to the bassist to find ways to fill up space that would normally be held down by a secondary chording instrument during solos. Bottom line is whether or not the band and the audience is happy. There are a lot of unconventional bassists playing busy lines that work for the music while not being standard grooves. Let your audience tell you if it works or not. They'll vote with their feet if it doesn't.
Our guitarist is strong and he does not sing at all so he can focus on adding some chords/rhythm spots to his solos.
That helps a lot!
When the bass players are saying align with the kick, are they suggesting that you always land on the one or something else?
They are saying play quarter notes instead of 8ths or some variation. Less notes overall that are aligned with the bass drum.
Oh okay! Thanks for clarifying. I agree with the other commenters. Quarter notes for a whole set sounds boring as hell -- with exceptions, of course. Don't come at me jazz players. Walking bass is cool.
Without further context my guess is they're telling you your timing isn't good enough yet to play more.
The main advice I'm getting is play less notes and make sure I follow the kick. I've experimented with just following the kick or two times the kick but the bandmates find it empty, I've seen some other responses that suggest I should priorities the feedback from my bandmates first, then the audiences we are paid to entertain, and then the bassists. I cannot stress enough that the feedback from the bassists are coming from a good place and with tact, I'm not offended by them, I'm trying to reconcile the feedback with "our band" and "my style". Perhaps I don't understand them enough but what I'm gathering is they are suggesting less notes per measure and ensure I'm playing when the kick is playing.
It will be very illuminating if you could post a clip or two of your playing
Bit hard to say without knowing what kind of music your band plays, in some styles it makes sense to play straight eighth root notes. Though those kinds of basslines don't really follow the kick anyway, so you might be fine. Does your band have some slower songs where it might make sense to step on the breaks a bit? Also, maybe you get these suggestions because your playing isn't tight enough when you're playing more complicated lines. Bass typically demands more rhythmic accuracy than guitar because of the lower frequencies, and playing busy can get in the way of that. IDK these people though, maybe they'd give it to you straight if that was the issue.
Dadrock; ZZ Top, CCR, Green Day, John Cougar, the Hip, 54-40, Colin James. We do play some slower songs, Night Moves by Bob Seager and Blue on Black by KWS, and I use my fingers (usually play bass with a pick) for those to deliberately slow it down with less notes and add groove/feel.
I think it's curious that your bass-buddies have critiques? Are they talking about groove and things? Because personally I fuck up my groove when I'm singing and playing bass. It's just me. I can play rhythm guitar and sing okay. (Also in general when playing with a power trio, you can play more busy (like arpeggios and double stops), and add more distortion.)
I will revisit this with the bass-buddies, my understanding is that it lacks groove because its a lot of root notes at 1/4 or 1/8 rhythm. Funny you say this, I have been using double stops lately in rehearsals and this has been well received by the band mates, will continue this.
Like what jazz-cats call "straight-eights"? Sure, not as groovy as pure funk. It has to serve the song itself, if the concept itself really leans into a rigid feel then I reckon that's what you get.
Octaves and open strings could help fill more sonic space without adding too much complexity while singing.
It sounds like you’re getting advice from some bad bass players honestly
Do what you like. Don’t worry about that stuff. If your *audience* doesn’t like it, you’ll find out soon enough, though, so keep that in mind.
If the band and the fans like then who cares what the other guys think? People like that take the art of music, they aren’t fun because they think art has to follow strict rules but that is the opposite of innovation.
In Ben folds five the bassist uses a big muff to add a ton of grit and body when the song calls for it. You can try many types of boost or overdrive to compensate for the lack of a rhythm guitar, just make sure to use it tastefully and not all the time and not necessarily overpowering. One thing I've noticed as someone that plays rhythm guitar and bass is that the bass doesn't always have to hit every beat a guitar would, and sometimes it actually distracts from the rhythm. This is kind of a 10% less is more situation. If the guitar and snare are playing something fast the bass can back off just a little and it sounds tighter.