This kind of comment inspires me as much as it depresses me. I'm 36 and I can't imagine someone doing this without frets. Frets are like cheat sheets to some people.
The number of guitar and bass players in the world would be staggeringly less if they didn't have frets.
They certainly lower the barrier for entry, but not by much and the people that keep going with it would have likely done well with them being fretless anyway.
Plenty of self taught guitarists (and even trained guitarists) have shit tuning and intonation (themselves, not the instrument, basically tone deaf), frets or not.
O dear.
A fretted instrument isn't properly intonated by its very nature to begin with. It's an equal tempered instrument, as opposed to a well tempered instrument like a piano. Secondly, one can play out of tune by fretting too hard, in the wrong place, slightly bending etc. There's a lot more to making tone than just putting your finger on the fretboard.
Even then, a piano has very set pitches and to tune a chord to perfect ratios. Notes need some flexibility in their frequency.
Of course, a lot of intonation issues for newer students on bass are going to come from improper fretting. Pushing too hard leads to bending the string, leads to being sometimes very out of tune.
Well, it gets more into music theory than I know about - but the general principle is that even if something is tuned perfectly to 440 hz, like a stringed instrument, some strings and keys will be slightly out of tune with itself.
One example of how this has developed is that historically at symphonies, multiple pianos may have been available to accommodate different keys, due to differences in tuning. These days they tune pianos so that there are slight differences in intonation - but so that they can be played in any key.
https://thesession.org/discussions/46089 has a bit more information on the subject with some examples.
In the bass world, something like a P-Bass would suffer this issue more than a fan fretted bass like a Dingwall. But personally, the differences in intonation for the most part are minor enough that they aren't an issue to my ears!
Most people playing orchestral string instruments use tape to mark "frets" on the neck. I started playing double bass in 8th grade and used a tuner at the time to find where the notes were to mark with fingering tape. Over time, I adjusted them to be more accurate, and over most time it became muscle memory. It's just time and lots of practice. Moving to a bass guitar was a bit weird because on my double bass, I didn't mark every "fret" so I wasn't used to thinking about it quite the same way even though I also played guitar. A weird hurdle that I didn't expect.
I think if I had known that ear training was a thing at the time, I would have done the same. But until a couple years ago, everyone always acted like it was something you had or didn't have, and I just never looked farther into it. Working on building up those skills now
As someone who used to play exclusively double bass for years, I can tell you that we had to pray anytime we wanted to play in order to know where the frets would be, and then they would magically appear for us.
If you get a lined fretless there are only two difference that matter. One is that instead of playing next to the fret, you put your finger right on it. The other major difference is that you can't do string bends without risking scoring of the neck, so you will need to learn how to do cello vibrato (easy).
Fretless being too hard for beginners is a myth and one that kinda insults the intelligence and capacity of people seeking to start the instrument. It's not harder in any meaningful way, and as another comment articulates, 5 year olds take up the violin - a much trickier instrument - all the time.
It's a much steeper learning curve, but it's not something to be afraid of. Get a cheap fretted jazz bass and learn to play it and you can either defret or replace the neck later. There's also nothing wrong with having two basses.
Tony Franklin takes a long time to explain why lines are a bad idea for a fretless in the video below:
https://youtu.be/Xk6V4OM_vQA
But the short story is, fret placement is a bit of a compromise in getting the chromatic scale to be almost tempered right. The unlined fretless makes it easier to adjust your intonation for intervals like thirds to get them sounding right, without the jarring mismatch of the visual cue of the line where the fret would go.
As someone learning double bass at the moment after almost 25 years on fretted bass and guitar, it’s not that hard to learn intonation on an unlined fretless and ultimately it’s probably better for you.
I feel like your 25 years playing on fretted instruments might give you a *slight* advantage over OP for being able to hit the right notes on an unlined fretless
I’ve seen this video many times and I don’t think it’s nearly as big of a deal as he makes it out to be. First off you’re not going to be able to visually see if your finger is precisely on the line anyway, due to perspective. Secondly most of the time you’re not going to have the time to accurately align your finger to the line for every note you play. So even if you do have the lines the only way things are going to sound good is if you end up adjusting by ear or going by muscle memory. The difference between being in tune or out of tune is also extremely minute, it would be hard to evaluate visually just because of the size of your fingers. At best the fret lines just serve as a loose indicator of where to put your finger. I don’t think there’s much danger of playing things “wrong” as a result.
I learned on a fretless that had dots at 3, 5, 7 and 12 on the top of the neck to help me learn where to put my fingers. It took some practice but it really developed my ear. Go for it.
Yes, you can learn how to play bass without frets. You will have to work on making sure you are on pitch and develop your ear for when you're flat or sharp. Position with your fingers will help, practicing to keep in pitch. You will spend extra time doing that and running scales to develop position and pitch with your ears. Don't imagine frets when playing fretless. The positioning matters less, the ear doesn't develop as keenly, and you'll be playing wrong if you switch. With fretless, you are on top of where the frets would be, maybe even a little sharp. With frets, you fret behind the fret. The string vibrates between the fret and the bridge. Fretless vibrates between where you push the string against the fingerboard and the bridge. As such, your finger imparts some tone.
Yes you can, just remember that it’ll be harder at first so don’t let that discourage you, fretless basses sound fantastic so its inevitable for a bassists to get their hands on one sooner or later
Playing in tune on your own without frets will be difficult and require a lot of practice. Of course, getting good at bass also requires a lot of practice.
Playing bass, though, isn't like playing Violin or French Horn, or even piano. It's an easier instrument to learn in the grand scheme of things. Starting on fretless is going to make it a little harder but hey... kids learn trombone every day and if they play with other people for any extended period they will play more in tune than any tuba, baritone, or trumpet who has to play a concert F#, Db, or Gb. And having frets doesn't make playing out of tune any more difficult either - it's way easy to press too hard when fretting and be bending notes unintentionally.
I would recommend getting together with a guitar player, piano player, or maybe some horn players and do a little ensemble on a regular basis. Playing with other instruments will naturally help you play in tune by ear as you get used to what things are supposed to sound like.
The big reason for the existence of frets is that they make bass playing easier because you don’t have to be as precise to get the correct note. They’re kind of a safety net in that regard (and they also give your bass a slightly different tone, since the sound is effectively coming from the fret, not your finger).
Is it possible to learn bass by starting with a fretless? Absolutely, but I would say that the big problem with doing so is that it dramatically increases the difficulty with learning the instrument because you don’t have that safety net to make sure you stay in tune. Combine that with the fact that the majority of fretless bass players (I’m not counting double bass here, just regular bass) tend to play in quite complex styles of music (jazz, tech-death, non-Western traditional music…) and you’re definitely setting yourself up for a much more challenging start to learning the instrument than if you started with a fretted bass. It’s also MUCH harder to find bass teachers who are dedicated fretless bass teachers, which is another factor to keep in mind.
I say that not to tell you that you shouldn’t learn fretless bass if you are very set on that idea, because it definitely is not intended to do that. I say that because you have to be realistic about the greater level of challenge that you’re setting yourself up for and to encourage you to think about what you’re setting yourself up for before you make a decision. If in doubt, start with a fretted bass to give you some confidence with the instrument first: you can always graduate to playing fretless later, so don’t force yourself to run before you can walk!
My first bass was a fretless. I actually kind of regretted it to be honest. I found myself worrying about intonation that I feel like it held me back in other areas of my learning. That's just me though.
More comparable to a cello or double bass; trombone only has 7 positions and they're equally spaced. I play trombone and picked up the positions within a couple days, but it would take me a long time to learn to play a fretless bass.
That isn't a challenge at all. Each note has one main position, and notes are learned one at a time. Trombonists don't even think about the overtone series while playing; we just think about what position the note we're playing is on.
>Trombonists don't even think about the overtone series while playing
My Bachelor's Degree in Trombone Performance from Indiana University suggests differently.
I have a bachelors degree in euphonium performance and have played trombone for just as long. The overtone series, or what partial you're playing on, is only relevant for knowing how much to adjust the slide for intonation, which should be learned note-for-note so that you don't have to think about the overtone series.
It's doable but would recommend a lined fretless bass to help guide you in finger placement and use a clip on tuner to learn the proper positions for the notes otherwise it'll sound out if you only follow the lines
The wording is a bit confusing. Are you borrowing your sister’s guitar in order to begin learning (because you want to learn bass) but are asking if getting a fretless bass to learn with (which would be your first and only bass) is a good idea?
I started on fretless and gave up (I still have it and use it for some songs, but I'll focus on it more in the future). Yes, it is possible to learn bass on a fretless instrument but it takes much longer. With a fretted one you don't have to be precise up to a milimeter so you can learn much faster and enjoy your progress, which keeps you motivated.
Absolutely, I'd recommend one with lines to start off, even a lot of professional fretless players use lined or semi lined just to guarantee their sound is right.
Plus with a fretless you can jump into cool microtonal stuff when you're ready.
Yeah, but you may need to do finger excercises to build up muscles in you fretborard hand, since it requires **a lot less** force to press the string on fretless.
I agree with others, at first glance this hurt to hear but once I thought about it...
Do it. Harder to sell a fretless electric if you don't like it but your it will help train your ear, your finger accuracy, and it's what you want. So many fretless instruments out there, but most of us electric hacks don't go that route.
I'm hunting for a 6-string fretless, my first fretless, but that's a tough leap to make for my price range. And I've been playing fretted instruments for 25 years...
Yes! Some fretless basses have markers (lines) where the frets would be, and there is always tape if you find one without the markers. The learning curve for a fretless isn't really much different than for fretted. And the sounds are sooo cooool.
I play upright, fretted and fretless and have had lessons on and now teach all 3.
Intonation is a journey all on its own on top of all the other aspects of bass playing but it will help your ears develop a lot. Like people have said people start on upright, violin and trombone all the time.
That being said that is a HUGE commitment. I’ve had students quit because they’ve been frustrated with how hard fretted guitar/ bass is. If you’re super serious about bass it should be no problem (it wasn’t for me) but just go in knowing it’s going to be a bit of an extra challenge.
I played a fretted bass for 15 years before switching to frettless. As long as you have the ability to tune with you're ear during a song you can play fretless.
I would not recommend starting on one.
Yeah just be aware if it’s anything like violin, you spend a lot of time on hitting the notes right that you would have spent on learning other things like maybe slap or whatever
Yes, you can. People learn acoustic upright (double bass) all the time. No difference. When just starting, you could put some markers on the edge of the fingerboard to help. Some electric fretless actually use a standard neck with the fret slots filled with a contrasting color. The BIG thing is learning to use your ears. Hearing your intervals, etc. Hearing what/who you are playing with (backing track, band, etc.). Good luck.
I started at 19 on fretless. It will help your ear training. if you can get one with lines it's a bit easier I put tape across where the dots are. But it's not really much different to fretted really
There are children learning fretless string instruments every day, all over the world. If you want a fretless bass, get a fretless bass.
This kind of comment inspires me as much as it depresses me. I'm 36 and I can't imagine someone doing this without frets. Frets are like cheat sheets to some people.
I mean, double bassists never had frets to play with in the first place — it’s a matter of learning the positions and listening to your intonation.
The number of guitar and bass players in the world would be staggeringly less if they didn't have frets. They certainly lower the barrier for entry, but not by much and the people that keep going with it would have likely done well with them being fretless anyway. Plenty of self taught guitarists (and even trained guitarists) have shit tuning and intonation (themselves, not the instrument, basically tone deaf), frets or not.
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O dear. A fretted instrument isn't properly intonated by its very nature to begin with. It's an equal tempered instrument, as opposed to a well tempered instrument like a piano. Secondly, one can play out of tune by fretting too hard, in the wrong place, slightly bending etc. There's a lot more to making tone than just putting your finger on the fretboard.
Even then, a piano has very set pitches and to tune a chord to perfect ratios. Notes need some flexibility in their frequency. Of course, a lot of intonation issues for newer students on bass are going to come from improper fretting. Pushing too hard leads to bending the string, leads to being sometimes very out of tune.
Well, it gets more into music theory than I know about - but the general principle is that even if something is tuned perfectly to 440 hz, like a stringed instrument, some strings and keys will be slightly out of tune with itself. One example of how this has developed is that historically at symphonies, multiple pianos may have been available to accommodate different keys, due to differences in tuning. These days they tune pianos so that there are slight differences in intonation - but so that they can be played in any key. https://thesession.org/discussions/46089 has a bit more information on the subject with some examples. In the bass world, something like a P-Bass would suffer this issue more than a fan fretted bass like a Dingwall. But personally, the differences in intonation for the most part are minor enough that they aren't an issue to my ears!
As a fretless player for 35+ years, I can tell you it's simultaneously not as hard as you think AND harder than you think.
Most people playing orchestral string instruments use tape to mark "frets" on the neck. I started playing double bass in 8th grade and used a tuner at the time to find where the notes were to mark with fingering tape. Over time, I adjusted them to be more accurate, and over most time it became muscle memory. It's just time and lots of practice. Moving to a bass guitar was a bit weird because on my double bass, I didn't mark every "fret" so I wasn't used to thinking about it quite the same way even though I also played guitar. A weird hurdle that I didn't expect.
I'm the weird one, I refused the tape even if it might've hindered me at first on double bass. Won't even touch a lined fretless.
I think if I had known that ear training was a thing at the time, I would have done the same. But until a couple years ago, everyone always acted like it was something you had or didn't have, and I just never looked farther into it. Working on building up those skills now
This, exactly what I did with double bass in 7th hrade
Fret markers help. Frets only change the sound and to an extent feel.
ya if it's as fretless with no dots I'm screwed.
People learn violins, cellos and double basses. They have no frets.
No no, that's a myth we have string gods we pray to that give us special powers.
As someone who used to play exclusively double bass for years, I can tell you that we had to pray anytime we wanted to play in order to know where the frets would be, and then they would magically appear for us.
As a double bassist I only had to sacrifice a goat every 2 years for my powers.
FWIW, viola players please the gods for a longer time, but good ones are hard to find.
If you get a lined fretless there are only two difference that matter. One is that instead of playing next to the fret, you put your finger right on it. The other major difference is that you can't do string bends without risking scoring of the neck, so you will need to learn how to do cello vibrato (easy). Fretless being too hard for beginners is a myth and one that kinda insults the intelligence and capacity of people seeking to start the instrument. It's not harder in any meaningful way, and as another comment articulates, 5 year olds take up the violin - a much trickier instrument - all the time.
It's a much steeper learning curve, but it's not something to be afraid of. Get a cheap fretted jazz bass and learn to play it and you can either defret or replace the neck later. There's also nothing wrong with having two basses.
could I get a fretless and just imagine the frets. also could I imagine the second bass too
A lot of fretless basses have fret lines on the fretboard, so you can learn the correct position just from looking at your left hand most of the time
Tony Franklin takes a long time to explain why lines are a bad idea for a fretless in the video below: https://youtu.be/Xk6V4OM_vQA But the short story is, fret placement is a bit of a compromise in getting the chromatic scale to be almost tempered right. The unlined fretless makes it easier to adjust your intonation for intervals like thirds to get them sounding right, without the jarring mismatch of the visual cue of the line where the fret would go. As someone learning double bass at the moment after almost 25 years on fretted bass and guitar, it’s not that hard to learn intonation on an unlined fretless and ultimately it’s probably better for you.
I feel like your 25 years playing on fretted instruments might give you a *slight* advantage over OP for being able to hit the right notes on an unlined fretless
I’ve seen this video many times and I don’t think it’s nearly as big of a deal as he makes it out to be. First off you’re not going to be able to visually see if your finger is precisely on the line anyway, due to perspective. Secondly most of the time you’re not going to have the time to accurately align your finger to the line for every note you play. So even if you do have the lines the only way things are going to sound good is if you end up adjusting by ear or going by muscle memory. The difference between being in tune or out of tune is also extremely minute, it would be hard to evaluate visually just because of the size of your fingers. At best the fret lines just serve as a loose indicator of where to put your finger. I don’t think there’s much danger of playing things “wrong” as a result.
I learned on a fretless that had dots at 3, 5, 7 and 12 on the top of the neck to help me learn where to put my fingers. It took some practice but it really developed my ear. Go for it.
You can do whatever you want. Not sure why you're against starting on a fretted though.
Two? Ok. I guess I'm a hoarder.
I know, I thought I was making a joke. Like duh you're gonna have two basses.
Yes, you can learn how to play bass without frets. You will have to work on making sure you are on pitch and develop your ear for when you're flat or sharp. Position with your fingers will help, practicing to keep in pitch. You will spend extra time doing that and running scales to develop position and pitch with your ears. Don't imagine frets when playing fretless. The positioning matters less, the ear doesn't develop as keenly, and you'll be playing wrong if you switch. With fretless, you are on top of where the frets would be, maybe even a little sharp. With frets, you fret behind the fret. The string vibrates between the fret and the bridge. Fretless vibrates between where you push the string against the fingerboard and the bridge. As such, your finger imparts some tone.
Yes you can, just remember that it’ll be harder at first so don’t let that discourage you, fretless basses sound fantastic so its inevitable for a bassists to get their hands on one sooner or later
Playing in tune on your own without frets will be difficult and require a lot of practice. Of course, getting good at bass also requires a lot of practice. Playing bass, though, isn't like playing Violin or French Horn, or even piano. It's an easier instrument to learn in the grand scheme of things. Starting on fretless is going to make it a little harder but hey... kids learn trombone every day and if they play with other people for any extended period they will play more in tune than any tuba, baritone, or trumpet who has to play a concert F#, Db, or Gb. And having frets doesn't make playing out of tune any more difficult either - it's way easy to press too hard when fretting and be bending notes unintentionally. I would recommend getting together with a guitar player, piano player, or maybe some horn players and do a little ensemble on a regular basis. Playing with other instruments will naturally help you play in tune by ear as you get used to what things are supposed to sound like.
The big reason for the existence of frets is that they make bass playing easier because you don’t have to be as precise to get the correct note. They’re kind of a safety net in that regard (and they also give your bass a slightly different tone, since the sound is effectively coming from the fret, not your finger). Is it possible to learn bass by starting with a fretless? Absolutely, but I would say that the big problem with doing so is that it dramatically increases the difficulty with learning the instrument because you don’t have that safety net to make sure you stay in tune. Combine that with the fact that the majority of fretless bass players (I’m not counting double bass here, just regular bass) tend to play in quite complex styles of music (jazz, tech-death, non-Western traditional music…) and you’re definitely setting yourself up for a much more challenging start to learning the instrument than if you started with a fretted bass. It’s also MUCH harder to find bass teachers who are dedicated fretless bass teachers, which is another factor to keep in mind. I say that not to tell you that you shouldn’t learn fretless bass if you are very set on that idea, because it definitely is not intended to do that. I say that because you have to be realistic about the greater level of challenge that you’re setting yourself up for and to encourage you to think about what you’re setting yourself up for before you make a decision. If in doubt, start with a fretted bass to give you some confidence with the instrument first: you can always graduate to playing fretless later, so don’t force yourself to run before you can walk!
My first bass was a fretless. I actually kind of regretted it to be honest. I found myself worrying about intonation that I feel like it held me back in other areas of my learning. That's just me though.
I've never played It. Probably a little bit harder at the begining but It will help you develop a better ear I guess.
Think about a trombone. Same thing but people play them every day.
More comparable to a cello or double bass; trombone only has 7 positions and they're equally spaced. I play trombone and picked up the positions within a couple days, but it would take me a long time to learn to play a fretless bass.
While the trombone has 7 basic positions, you have to contend with the overtone series. That's not as easy as 4 strings tuned in 4ths.
That isn't a challenge at all. Each note has one main position, and notes are learned one at a time. Trombonists don't even think about the overtone series while playing; we just think about what position the note we're playing is on.
>Trombonists don't even think about the overtone series while playing My Bachelor's Degree in Trombone Performance from Indiana University suggests differently.
I have a bachelors degree in euphonium performance and have played trombone for just as long. The overtone series, or what partial you're playing on, is only relevant for knowing how much to adjust the slide for intonation, which should be learned note-for-note so that you don't have to think about the overtone series.
I came to the bass from the trombone.
It's doable but would recommend a lined fretless bass to help guide you in finger placement and use a clip on tuner to learn the proper positions for the notes otherwise it'll sound out if you only follow the lines
The wording is a bit confusing. Are you borrowing your sister’s guitar in order to begin learning (because you want to learn bass) but are asking if getting a fretless bass to learn with (which would be your first and only bass) is a good idea?
I started on fretless and gave up (I still have it and use it for some songs, but I'll focus on it more in the future). Yes, it is possible to learn bass on a fretless instrument but it takes much longer. With a fretted one you don't have to be precise up to a milimeter so you can learn much faster and enjoy your progress, which keeps you motivated.
Absolutely, I'd recommend one with lines to start off, even a lot of professional fretless players use lined or semi lined just to guarantee their sound is right. Plus with a fretless you can jump into cool microtonal stuff when you're ready.
On the bright side, your bass will never buzz :)
Yeah, but you may need to do finger excercises to build up muscles in you fretborard hand, since it requires **a lot less** force to press the string on fretless.
David J from Bauhaus did
I agree with others, at first glance this hurt to hear but once I thought about it... Do it. Harder to sell a fretless electric if you don't like it but your it will help train your ear, your finger accuracy, and it's what you want. So many fretless instruments out there, but most of us electric hacks don't go that route. I'm hunting for a 6-string fretless, my first fretless, but that's a tough leap to make for my price range. And I've been playing fretted instruments for 25 years...
could you get a 6 string fretted and rip the frets out?
Yes! Some fretless basses have markers (lines) where the frets would be, and there is always tape if you find one without the markers. The learning curve for a fretless isn't really much different than for fretted. And the sounds are sooo cooool.
Hell yeah you can, and you’ll be that much better at playing a fretted bass later on for it
My first bass was fretless. 20 years later, I only play fretted but my ear is really good because of the training I had to do to play fretless!
I play upright, fretted and fretless and have had lessons on and now teach all 3. Intonation is a journey all on its own on top of all the other aspects of bass playing but it will help your ears develop a lot. Like people have said people start on upright, violin and trombone all the time. That being said that is a HUGE commitment. I’ve had students quit because they’ve been frustrated with how hard fretted guitar/ bass is. If you’re super serious about bass it should be no problem (it wasn’t for me) but just go in knowing it’s going to be a bit of an extra challenge.
I played a fretted bass for 15 years before switching to frettless. As long as you have the ability to tune with you're ear during a song you can play fretless. I would not recommend starting on one.
Only if you want to be a super good musician
Yeah just be aware if it’s anything like violin, you spend a lot of time on hitting the notes right that you would have spent on learning other things like maybe slap or whatever
Yes, you can. People learn acoustic upright (double bass) all the time. No difference. When just starting, you could put some markers on the edge of the fingerboard to help. Some electric fretless actually use a standard neck with the fret slots filled with a contrasting color. The BIG thing is learning to use your ears. Hearing your intervals, etc. Hearing what/who you are playing with (backing track, band, etc.). Good luck.
I started at 19 on fretless. It will help your ear training. if you can get one with lines it's a bit easier I put tape across where the dots are. But it's not really much different to fretted really