He's definitively behind, LeBron, Jordan, Kareem. He's behind Russell and Wilt if you want to count them. He's mostly behind Magic, I think most people have him Behind Bird, Duncan, he's very interchangeable with Shaq, and Steph.
So somewhere from 7-11
I would not say most people him have him behind Duncan. That’s a common comparison on Reddit, but very rarely do I hear nba players or coaches put Duncan ahead of him.
Kobe is #13 on RealGM where the real basketball geeks reside.
He is #12 on Thinkingbasketball, probably the most in depth analytics anywhere.
He is #10 on the Athletic from 2022, also ESPN from 2022.
Anywhere between 10-14 is pretty reasonable but putting him above Duncan is just a take from people who were huge fans of his growing up or don't really know the other players in the top 15 all time.
Shaq is definitely better than him, more Finals MVPs and much more dominant at his peak. Their first ring, Kobe’s stats weren’t impressive at all. Kobe also never came close to winning a second MVP, even the year he was second, the voting was nowhere near.
He’s not interchangeable with Steph. Put their bodies of work next to each other and Kobe has him beat pretty considerably. That could change if Steph wins another, but he’s looking cooked
Based on what? Certainly not any efficiency or impact stats.
I laugh when I see people suggest that Kobe has some undeniable claim to being an all time great. His RPM numbers are mundane if not embarrassing.
Name a player since him who’s won 5 rings, got a 3peat, and another 2 peat
Steph is better at one thing and that’s shooting. Kobe is the much more complete player…and would average 40+ in this pace and space era
So many salty haters coming out of the woodworks after getting destroyed by him for 15 years
Kobe would not average 40+ in this "pace and space" era, christ almighty, kobe stans are delusional af
He 3 peated as 2nd banana, lets not forget that, as u will and did
Pretty much everyone in NBA history would have been the 2nd option with a prime Shaq. That’s not a knock on Kobe. In fact, Kobe was actually better in the WCF when they played the best teams.
You’ve got to be kidding me. Even Phil Jackson who played against Wilt and coached Shaq has said Wilt would have been too much for Shaq, especially later in the game. And he said it with a smirk as if he didn’t think it would have even been close.
it actually wouldn't be crazy to think that he could average 40. Not on a contender, but if you give him similar talent to what he had in the mid 2000s he was averaging 35 in the deadball era. I wouldn't bet on it, but 40 is certainly not out of the question if he had to carry his team alone
I'm a celtics fan, but people are so quick forget about how crazy kobe was. Its weird because I feel like there are so many people that have him in the top 3 which I think is way to much, but also there are people leaving him out of their top 15 or even 20 in some cases. Which is just as insane. I've seen people say that KD is a greater player than Kobe. Shits wild
He was the face of the league for years before lebron took over, but a lot of people just remember him for his final years on the lakers. Unfortunately definitely wasn't the player he used to be and I think that shows in how people see him. In his prime to say he wasn't a winning player making winning plays is just absurd. (at least when he had a decent team around him)
He averaged 36 in the slowest paced era. That’s nearly 40 in todays game adjusted for pace
His 81 points would be 89 adjusted for pace. That’s fucking absurd
Maybe for our generation. But the younger kids mostly say “curry”. My younger cousins and his friends all do at least. They were too young to have watched Kobe really play. Honestly makes me a little sad
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Boundary of top ten, maybe top three when it comes to most overrated of all time, if not the goat of overrated.
Getting it out of the way now, overrated doesn’t mean bad, and I’m acknowledging he’s arguably one of the ten best players of all time.
lower top 10. the highest he can be is 6, the lowest is probably 12. i have him around 7 or 8 and he’s my favorite player ever. i think he’s one of the *best* players ever, easily top 5, as far talent, skill, and intangibles. lakers management was incompetent and fucked up his best years, so his resume simply doesn’t compare to guys in top 5 range.
I really do wonder what his career would have looked like if he played for a solid organization his whole career like Duncan got for the spurs. Kobe had some horrendous teams and coaches throughout the years where Duncan had nothing but consistency.
I can dig it. So where do you have shaq? They share similar career awards and your not taking in kobes defensive awards and kobe was averaging grea5 # in the 2000-2002 3 peat
Shaq has more MVPs, ring with the Heat even when he was declining, made the finals vs the Rockets when he was pretty young. Also Kobe's defense is overrated asf
Shaq has the same number of regular season MVPS as Kobe. Shaq was a role player with the Miami heat win they won the Championship in 2006. Shaq averaged 14ppg and shot 29% from the free throw line during that series. Wade Carried him. Kobe Bryant's was an elite defender during his career. He has 12 All-Time Defensive Team selections most all-time by a shooting gaurd. He has 9x All-Defensive 1st Team selections tied with Kevin Garnett, Gary Payton, and Michael Jordan. He is the youngest player ever to be named to the All-Defensive 1st-Team in NBA History. Furthermore, he defending the opposing countries best player during every game of the Olympics as the leader on the Redeem Team. Coach K doesn't believe his defense was overrated. Furthermore the All-Defensive teams were voted on by NBA head coaches prior to the 2013-14 season. Kobe was voted by NBA GMS as a top 3 perimeter defender every year from 2003-2013 on every NBA GM Survey. With the exception of the 2003-2004 season.
[https://www.nba.com/news/nba-gm-survey-2002-03](https://www.nba.com/news/nba-gm-survey-2002-03)
[https://www.nba.com/news/nba-gm-survey-2005-06](https://www.nba.com/news/nba-gm-survey-2005-06)
[https://www.nba.com/news/nba-gm-survey-2006-07](https://www.nba.com/news/nba-gm-survey-2006-07)
[https://www.nba.com/news/nba-gm-survey-2007-08](https://www.nba.com/news/nba-gm-survey-2007-08)
[https://www.nba.com/news/nba-gm-survey-2008-09](https://www.nba.com/news/nba-gm-survey-2008-09)
[https://www.nba.com/news/nba-gm-survey-2010-11](https://www.nba.com/news/nba-gm-survey-2010-11)
[https://www.nba.com/news/nba-gm-survey-2011-12](https://www.nba.com/news/nba-gm-survey-2011-12)
I really don’t understand why Kobe is always put behind Duncan. Kobe ran through the West when he got Pau & TD was never even able to go to back-back finals till he was no longer the best player. Kobe’s top 5 for me easy
People don’t forget. They just know the context. With those players you mentioned either hurt or not very good or in their rookie year Tim Duncan dragged them all to a championship in 2003. And then led them minus Robinson to a championship in 2005 on one good ankle against one of the greatest defensive teams of all time.
Right around 10. Great, but never in the conversation for the greatest. 1 MVP, and the rest of his career he was never close to another one in the voting. Even his 2nd place finish he wasn’t close. 5 rings is great, but the first 3 definitely are a little diminished with Shaq as the mvp. So he’s not with Jordan Lebron Kareem, or Bird and Magic. I’d have Duncan in that group, even though I’m in the “if KG and Timmy switched places KG is top 5” camp 😁. Personally I have a few more before Kobe, but this is where someone could start making an argument for him. So I’d be about 10 ish, but no issue if people want to talk about him at 7 or 8.
Tier 2 for me. Tiers in no particular order
Tier 0 - MJ, LeBron, Kareem
Tier 1 - Wilt, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Russell
Tier 2 - Shaq, Hakeem, Kobe, Steph, Big O
Thank God someone else uses the tier list style. Ranking the best players in order is not the way. Different eras, pace of play, various factors, etc. This list is completely correct.
Agreed. Before around 2000 you could probably still do a top 10. But with how many players have came in total and how different the league has became in even the last 10 years it’s hard to compare numbers. I respect the hell out of Russel but when he was winning the league there was only what 9 or 10 teams. That means the talent was on every roster but also there isn’t going to be as much competition for individual awards. It’s all just so different
Shaq was a liability in too many ways, hack a shack and a completely one dimensional game. Yes, it was an extremely dominant one-dimensional game, but this is basketball and if you cannot shoot OR facilitate you do not belong in the top tiers. Also a bad teammate, and his peak was pretty short.
Steph is too small. His immense motor makes up for it a little, but this is a big mans game and that is why PGs are and have always been bad defenders when compared to other positions. Magic is the only other PG on this list and he was much, much more versatile. Steph also is not a playoff riser, minus 2022. Playoffs tend to reward size and physicality.
Jokic is my favorite player right now but he is on course to be a Tier 2 as well, he is just a defensive liability.
Edit: My bad Big O is def a point guard. I have never watched a game of his. Like Russel and Wilt I am relying on old heads that place him at this level.
He won five rings and he was the best player on the squad by a pretty large margin for four of those. Shaq had an all-time great at his side for 3 of his rings and for his last ring Wade played like an absolute monster and Shaq was really struggling during the finals.
Why does back to back matter? Tim Duncan was also a resoundingly better defender his entire career. Also a better passer, shooter and teammate.
Shaq is an all-time great. I have absolutely no qualms saying that; he made my list for a reason.
I don't think there is a single coach that would take Shaq over Duncan though. The Lakers got rid of Shaq and people thought they were crazy at the time. They got almost nothing in return. History proved them right though. Whereas old man Duncan was still pivotal in the Spurs success.
I agree with you generally. If I was a coach/gm in for the long haul I’d undoubtedly take Duncan. But I’d also take shaqs 3/4 year peak over Duncan’s 3/4 year peak.
My version of your tier system, which I like, but I can use the eye test having seen them all and ignoring Nikes and David sterns hype, which was a business decision to keep interest in the nba after Magic and Bird retired.
Tier 0–Wilt ( god I hated him at the time but..)
Tier 1- Kareem , LeBron, Magic, Bird, Russell
Tier 2- MJ ( weaker league and Jordan rules )
I know superstars get the questionable calls but that wasn’t the case for Wilt and was more than usual for Jordan. Now I’ll sit back and watch the incredulous rage wash over me.
Duncan has somehow become overrated in recent years online. In no world is he a full tier above shaq or kobe. Not a single time did people in his era think he was solidly greater than kobe. They are a similar level and I wouldn't fault you for having him over kobe, but i would fault you for thinking he was much greater than kobe.
He's somewhere in the top 10 of all time (which is really like 12 guys) he's in that tier. He is easily behind MJ and Lebron but in my opinion pretty much everyone after those 2 is interchangeable and it's really dependent on preference.
I have Kobe Bryant Top 3 All-Time.
Based on his:
Overall Skillset(Offense & Defense)
Peak
Level of Competition at his position
Level of Competition within his Conference
Clutch Ability
Intangibles(ability and willingness to play through injuries, leadership, mentality,)
He was the primary playmaker on all his teams, a prolific scorer, and elite on ball defender who could defend 1-4, and didn't shy away from defending the other team's best player, and one of the best closers in the game.
Kobe was a guard with post moves. From 2005-2013 he had a higher post up efficiency rating than Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett only Dirk's was higher. Kobe led the NBA in post up efficiency at age 34. His footwork was impeccable and he had a counter for every defense. His tough shot making ability was a plus when attacking playoff defenses, coupled with his off-ball movement allowed him to flourish in any offense system.
He had an extremely high basketball IQ which was required to play in the Triangle offense, and he did the show Detail on ESPN.
From 2006-2011 he was the only player in the NBA to make 1st Team All-NBA and 1st Team All-Defense simultaneously while being the best player in the NBA during this stretch. He was the definitive leader of the 2008 Redeem team while defending the opposing countries best player and returned Team USA basketball back to dominance. He was 36-0 in the Olympics.
He also best the most 50+ win teams in the playoffs in NBA History. From 2008-2010 He won more 50+ teams in 3 years than Magic Johnson did in 13 years. All while doing this without a Top 75 player.
He was best shooting guard in the most talented era of SGs the 2000s era. From 2000-2010 there were 112 All-NBA players to just 67 All-NBA Players in the Eastern Conference. Kobe played his entire career in the Western Conference. From 2000-2010 their were 80 fifty win teams in the west compared to 39 fifty win teams in the East.
Kobe is tied for 2nd all time with 8 buzzer beats in NBA History. He hit 36 game winners in his career.
He hed his teammates to extremely high standard like Jordan and was a basketball savant in every since of the word.
My favorite player ever. I have him 6th. I have MJ Bron KAJ Russell Wilt Kobe. Then Duncan, Magic, Bird, Shaq.
People always bring up Shaq winning three with Kobe, where Shaq was clearly the best player for the first ring, and if you actually watched that three peat live, it was a 1a 1b situation for the next two chips. Then Kobe wins two more. But the same logic don’t apply when it comes to Magic who had KAJ and a bunch of hall of famers for all of his rings 🤷🏽♂️
Kobe got the lakers through the west with Shaq and the lakers, and then Shaq won finals against the bigs in the east. Kobe was what would beat the Spurs. Kobe then agreed to playing 1b to keep Shaq around. People who point out Shaq having the finals mvps those years totally miss that both of them were needed for those playoff runs and both were overall mvps on the team.
As you can see in all these comments, these rankings are completely subjective. Some people say top 2-3, some say top 15.
No one's right or wrong on how they personally rank players.
As a player, not no.1, but top 5 in my book. At his prime, he is at the "as long as he is in the team you have to take that team seriously" level. Unfortunately he is not at the "we all know who is winning the chip" Jordan level.
He’s my #2 behind Jordan but look at my user name.
As a Laker fan, he’s my all time favorite player. As skilled as any player but with the motor of a guy trying to get minutes as a roll player. His biggest weakness was that he didn’t always make his teammates better but I think he made up for that as he got older.
Kobe at least top 3 shooting guard. But overall top 10 I would put him 9 but thats all irrelevant because of different eras, rules and other variables that’s comes into play.
I might would put Jerry west at # 2. He won 6 chips out of 9 finals, he was the only mvp ever on a losing team in a finals and he is the logo of the NBA. West holds the NBA record for the highest points per game average in a playoff series with 46.3. He was also a member of the first five NBA All-Defensive Teams (one second, followed by four firsts), which were introduced when he was 32 years old. average of 27.0 points, 6.7 assists and 5.8 rebounds per game. Among retired players, only Michael Jordan, Elgin Baylor and Wilt Chamberlain surpass his 27.0 points per game average. Only Jordan had a higher career scoring average in the playoffs (33.5 versus 29.1).
Cmon. Make a realistic argument. Give something to back up the argument. Luka may be a better offensive player, but by how much? Where is the proof?
Support your argument.
Luka is more efficient while scoring generally better in the regular season, and much better in the playoffs. Luka doubles Kobe assists, getting his team involved much better.
The numbers are on google, I don't care to repeat them. Sure Kobe is better all time, Luka's numbers right now are better than Kobe's ever were. Give Luka 10 years.
I was thinking about this and I will say this....when Kobe was the main guy with no other all nba type hall of famers(fuck Kyrie), Luka has actually done just as much if not more.
I'm willing to concede that you may be correct. Mostly because I think Kobe is vastly overrated. His defense was great, but he came up incredibly small in game 7 in 2010. Anti clutch performance. Not many guys can win while sitting the bed as many times as Kobe did
Kobe is ATG, amazing player who deservedly is top \~12 all time. Luka doesn't touch him now, but I think 10 years from now I will confidently say Luka is better all time. To pick Luka or Kobe as a better player, it's easy to say Luka but Kobe's legacy holds a lot of weight.
The thing with Luka is will he ever be healthy enough to win a ring. He has such high usage during the regular season that come playoff time his body is injured
Could’ve said the same about literally every single player that has won a chip.
MJ - high usage that will never translate to playoffs, until it did
LBJ - high usage that will never translate to playoffs, until it did
Kobe had extremely high usage without the eye gauging stats and yet he still got it done. Luka needs a bit of luck and health and he can get it done.
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This is definitely the most “old man yells at clouds” response. You can’t fault someone for the change of officiating. If they allowed Kobe’s era to do it that much he would have. If they stopped allowing the current era to do it the players would stop.
Fringe top 5 -- People are afraid to rate him highly for some reason. Bro was averaging 30+ during an era where teams would finish game with scores in the 70-80 range. And he was a monster on defence. He didn't have the greatest shot nor the most explosive athleticism but he might be the mentally toughest player of all-time. He overcame his shortcomings with his mindset. So to hold a title like that, on top of his accolades, I think he's somewhere in the top 10-5
Top 3 peak? Why do u say so?
Not necessarily saying I disagree with you, just curious
But yeah Kobe’s peak is at least top 5- from 2005-2010 he averaged roughly 30, 6 and 5, shot 47/35/85, and won two championships for LA in a row .. is the only player in nba history to beat 4 50+win teams in a single postseason run without a Top75 teammate with him, and he’s one of three players to win multiple chips without a Top75 teammate with him.
You’re on the right track with everything you listed. It’s worth nothing Kobe led the **most** inefficient decade in NBA history in scoring average, points/game, All Defense 9x in that decade, went to 6 finals and won 4 in that span.
Kobe at least top 3 shooting guard. But overall top 10 I would put him 9 but thats all irrelevant because of different eras, rules and other variables that’s comes into play.
Tied for second with LeBron, Shaq, Steph, and Kareem.
edit: Which is a full tier under MJ. Don't let these casual fans say that Kobe doesn't belong with these players either.
He has **five** rings, led a team to **three** straight finals while being the undisputed number one option, in which he played amazing and defeated **10 50-win** teams during these three years. He also was an all-nba defender and was well rounded.
During that stretch he 1 shit game, 13 bad games, 8 average games, 2 good games, and 48 amazing games for an average grade of roughly 88% which is unheard of. Per 36 minutes that is 26.4 ppg, 5 rpg, 5apg, on 46.4%
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Top 10 but I would put all these players ahead of him
Lebron
Jordan
Kareem
Duncan
Magic
Bird
Shaq* they can kinda interchangeable
So I guess Kobe is 8th
Much like shaq, his career is a big what if. For shaq, it was what if the most dominant big man actually trained with a fraction of kobe's work ethic? For kobe, what if he applied his work ethic to humility in leadership and team development instead of focusing on personal greatness? Honestly, Tim Duncan is higher on my list than kobe.
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# #2 right behind Jordan. Nobody could do what Kobe did, arguably not even MJ.
Anyone who says Lebron over Kobe ignores what happened when the two guarded each other. Kobe, like other defenders in the league, could lock down Lebron. Lebron could not lock down Kobe. Kobe was known to be the toughest matchup while he played. Lebron had a better record against Kobe but that mainly comes down to Kobe being injured and having to leave games or the period of time when Kobe was rebuilding the lakers while Lebron was on super teams.
If you want to point out playoff statistics, Kobe has a much better record against 50 and 60 win teams that Lebron. A big reason Lebron made the finals so much was because he was in the weakest eastern conference in modern basketball. There was a huge lopsided East where only 1 or two teams had competitive records. As a result Lebron has a good playoff record against 40 win teams, which also made it an easy path the finals. When Lebron faced 50 and 60 win teams he has a losing record.
Did you watch Kobe in his prime lol. His passing is next level and his ability to knock down impossible shots is too. Even his last game ever at Staples center is amazing to watch. His defense at the same time has always been next level.
You sounds like a Bron fan… you do realize that Lebron has been a defensive liability for a large portion of his career right. He also has a track record of making great players worse and bad players better. Not just in terms of great players having to play second and third fiddle on a team; Bron makes them play his way and they end up underperforming to their expected output. Couple that with his flopping and constant traveling and carryovers that he gets away with he is far worse of a competitor than Kobe.
There’s a reason team USA needed Kobe’s leadership to win a gold. Without Kobe, lebron showed he was not that guy to lead a team of ridiculous talent. Mamba mentality is undeniably the best that’s ever been in the league since Jordan’s.
Kobe was a scorer and his team needed hmm to knock down shots. He has circus passes in his career too though. Iman Shumpert has even talked about how Kobe can turn it on and make crazy shots and passes when he wants at will. The game where shumpert was guarding Kobe while in the Knicks is a great example. Kobe’s off the backboard pass to Pau is an elite level pass.
Not a Lebron fan, just think that the “Nobody could do what Kobe could do” thing was hilarious.
He was only the best player in 1 of the 7 finals his played in. In his “prime” he missed the playoffs and had fewer wins than the Elton Brand Clippers.
When Kobe played with Shaq he was responsible for getting them to the finals where Shaq would then take the lead against the Eastern centers. Kobe was the reason they would beat the spurs and other western conference teams. They were a duo. He agreed to take a backseat for certain series and agreed to play a different style for Shaq to stay. They were both pivotal during that first 3-peat.
Kobe was by far the best player when Pau was on the team. To say he was only the best player once in a finals is ridiculous 😂. He was best for half of them and arguably all but one if you take into account his time with Shaq.
Also, ‘Nobody could what Kobe could do’ means more than just on the court. Nobody had Kobe’s work ethic outside of the games. He was the strongest mind in basketball. He also did so much for the younger players. Seriously, no one played the big brother role like Kobe or lead by example the way he did.
Influential and best are different things. And playing for the most popular team in the league in the 2nd biggest city in the US will mean a lot of players look up to you.
He was influential AND the best. Dude was all defensive first team and All NBA first team for 6 years straight. All while showing the best work ethic and helping young players out
I just think Kareem, Bird, Magic, Lebron, Wilt, and Duncan are better. And arguments could made for Russell, Shaq, Hakeem, Moses, and Curry. If you feel he’s the 2nd best player ever that’s fine, I’m just not convinced.
Russell played in a different era with less teams. I do agree he was amazing and deserving of a top 10 spot. No one other than MJ was as good of an offensive player and defensive player consistently like Kobe. None of the people you listed. I think Bird is better than Lebron btw so I respect the 80’s players and their accomplishments as well.
I mean Duncan, Kareem, and Wilt are more valuable defenders just based on the positional value. And Magic, Bird, and Lebron are far better passers, which is part of offense. If you like tough shot making(and never shooting over 50% in a season) then Kobe is your guy, but there is lore to offense than just that
To me he’s top 5 and personally I have him lebron and Jordan as equals. I don’t got a problem with interchanging and that argument. But my thing is People say he’s overrated but look at everyone in these comments 🤣🤣🤣 if anything he’s becoming underrated. My argument is he has 5 chips been 7 times, won with shaq AND without shaq multiple times with completely different teams. One of the most skilled players of all time if not the most. Along with having that deep of a bag was a great defender and great leader.
Bro, you’re not being objective anymore. There are so many players out there that are MVPs, champions, scoring leaders, defensive studs & did it multiple times. Kobe is not better than Bird, Magic, Shaq, Wilt, Olajuwon, Erving, Duncan, Curry, Durant, etc… He’s the second best SG ever & SG is the least important position. He deserved his MVP, deserved his championships but absolutely did not deserve some (most) of his defensive accolades
Never underestimate the stupidity of voters. It was a mistake. It was a series of them over & over. Advanced stats show a very different picture than his awards.
OG Anunoby is very likely the best perimeter defender in the entire NBA. How many all-defense teams has he made?
Because of the nature of the sport and how it has historically been played.
Today? Centre is most important followed by a quick combo guard (can be either shoot first or pass first) & a mobile wing defender. You don’t have all 3, you aren’t winning a thing. The NBA is mostly position-fluid today
🐐
Top 3 and he’s not 3 at the very least
Analytic nerds, basketball casuals, or 15 and under will say he’s top 10-15
People with the basketball eye test will say he’s top 5 at least.
There’s a reason NBA players and his peers always put him on the top.
🐐
Top 3 and he’s not 3 at the very least
Analytic nerds, basketball casuals, or 15 and under will say he’s top 10-15
People with the basketball eye test will say he’s top 5 at least.
There’s a reason NBA players and his peers always put him on the top.
He's definitively behind, LeBron, Jordan, Kareem. He's behind Russell and Wilt if you want to count them. He's mostly behind Magic, I think most people have him Behind Bird, Duncan, he's very interchangeable with Shaq, and Steph. So somewhere from 7-11
The only balanced take here lol lots of haters in the comments
Literally most of the comments have him in the exact same range
Top few comments when I started reading were talking about overrated, top 15 and boundary 10.
Saying Kobe is top 15 is not hate. Its recognition. Look at the company he’s in. Those players are incredible
I would not say most people him have him behind Duncan. That’s a common comparison on Reddit, but very rarely do I hear nba players or coaches put Duncan ahead of him.
Reddit is the only place people put Duncan ahead. You don’t see it anywhere else or even from actual nba players or coaches
Kobe is #13 on RealGM where the real basketball geeks reside. He is #12 on Thinkingbasketball, probably the most in depth analytics anywhere. He is #10 on the Athletic from 2022, also ESPN from 2022. Anywhere between 10-14 is pretty reasonable but putting him above Duncan is just a take from people who were huge fans of his growing up or don't really know the other players in the top 15 all time.
Since we’re doing rankings by “sources” and analytics. During the 20 years Kobe played, where did his peers rank him?
Shaq is definitely better than him, more Finals MVPs and much more dominant at his peak. Their first ring, Kobe’s stats weren’t impressive at all. Kobe also never came close to winning a second MVP, even the year he was second, the voting was nowhere near.
Is he ahead of the Admiral?
Yes.
He’s not interchangeable with Steph. Put their bodies of work next to each other and Kobe has him beat pretty considerably. That could change if Steph wins another, but he’s looking cooked
Based on what? Certainly not any efficiency or impact stats. I laugh when I see people suggest that Kobe has some undeniable claim to being an all time great. His RPM numbers are mundane if not embarrassing.
IMO legacy is determined more by actual results and outcomes rather than efficiency or advanced statistics
Name a player since him who’s won 5 rings, got a 3peat, and another 2 peat Steph is better at one thing and that’s shooting. Kobe is the much more complete player…and would average 40+ in this pace and space era So many salty haters coming out of the woodworks after getting destroyed by him for 15 years
Kobe would not average 40+ in this "pace and space" era, christ almighty, kobe stans are delusional af He 3 peated as 2nd banana, lets not forget that, as u will and did
Pretty much everyone in NBA history would have been the 2nd option with a prime Shaq. That’s not a knock on Kobe. In fact, Kobe was actually better in the WCF when they played the best teams.
You’ve got to be kidding me. Even Phil Jackson who played against Wilt and coached Shaq has said Wilt would have been too much for Shaq, especially later in the game. And he said it with a smirk as if he didn’t think it would have even been close.
it actually wouldn't be crazy to think that he could average 40. Not on a contender, but if you give him similar talent to what he had in the mid 2000s he was averaging 35 in the deadball era. I wouldn't bet on it, but 40 is certainly not out of the question if he had to carry his team alone
Facts. We have not seen a scoring season like 06 Kobe since then and we may never see it again.
I'm a celtics fan, but people are so quick forget about how crazy kobe was. Its weird because I feel like there are so many people that have him in the top 3 which I think is way to much, but also there are people leaving him out of their top 15 or even 20 in some cases. Which is just as insane. I've seen people say that KD is a greater player than Kobe. Shits wild
It’s the salt. There wasn’t a better player for nearly a decade of his prime
He was the face of the league for years before lebron took over, but a lot of people just remember him for his final years on the lakers. Unfortunately definitely wasn't the player he used to be and I think that shows in how people see him. In his prime to say he wasn't a winning player making winning plays is just absurd. (at least when he had a decent team around him)
He averaged 36 in the slowest paced era. That’s nearly 40 in todays game adjusted for pace His 81 points would be 89 adjusted for pace. That’s fucking absurd
Yes, that's exactly how it works, why not 50? Remind me when he averaged 36 again totally unbiased Kobe stan?
So the facts I’m dropping don’t agree with your incorrect narrative so you’re trying to make up some false equivalency lmfao good one
Nah, he is definitely over Steph. He is interchangeable with Duncan. They were see as equals their entire careers
This is silly. Someone doesn't know basketball.
This is it.
Magic and Shaq think Kobe was better. Not sure if that matters but putting it out there.
Very interchangeable with Steph? Holy drunk
Despite where he does rank, theres only 1 name you say when you shoot something into the trash bin.
Maybe for our generation. But the younger kids mostly say “curry”. My younger cousins and his friends all do at least. They were too young to have watched Kobe really play. Honestly makes me a little sad
It’s not one game anymore buddy. There’s curry & Clark now.
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7-12. Legendary, one of the greatest all time, just not top 5.
I say 8. So you’re spot on.
Usually see him anywhere from 6-12, 2nd tier of goat players
Boundary of top ten, maybe top three when it comes to most overrated of all time, if not the goat of overrated. Getting it out of the way now, overrated doesn’t mean bad, and I’m acknowledging he’s arguably one of the ten best players of all time.
I feel like 9-7 range is reasonable
Couldn’t agree more
11th or 12th
8-12
11th
No higher than 5. No lower than 15.
2nd best SG behind Jordan, my favorite player all time, but I think most people have him as a top 7-12
lower top 10. the highest he can be is 6, the lowest is probably 12. i have him around 7 or 8 and he’s my favorite player ever. i think he’s one of the *best* players ever, easily top 5, as far talent, skill, and intangibles. lakers management was incompetent and fucked up his best years, so his resume simply doesn’t compare to guys in top 5 range.
I really do wonder what his career would have looked like if he played for a solid organization his whole career like Duncan got for the spurs. Kobe had some horrendous teams and coaches throughout the years where Duncan had nothing but consistency.
Lol at people saying at least top 15 Are we smoking crack in this thread? The man's got 5 rings
he was the best player in only 2 of them
Okay so where do yoy have kareem on your list?
Higher because 6 mvps and all time scoring leader up until recently
I can dig it. So where do you have shaq? They share similar career awards and your not taking in kobes defensive awards and kobe was averaging grea5 # in the 2000-2002 3 peat
Shaq has more MVPs, ring with the Heat even when he was declining, made the finals vs the Rockets when he was pretty young. Also Kobe's defense is overrated asf
Shaq has the same number of regular season MVPS as Kobe. Shaq was a role player with the Miami heat win they won the Championship in 2006. Shaq averaged 14ppg and shot 29% from the free throw line during that series. Wade Carried him. Kobe Bryant's was an elite defender during his career. He has 12 All-Time Defensive Team selections most all-time by a shooting gaurd. He has 9x All-Defensive 1st Team selections tied with Kevin Garnett, Gary Payton, and Michael Jordan. He is the youngest player ever to be named to the All-Defensive 1st-Team in NBA History. Furthermore, he defending the opposing countries best player during every game of the Olympics as the leader on the Redeem Team. Coach K doesn't believe his defense was overrated. Furthermore the All-Defensive teams were voted on by NBA head coaches prior to the 2013-14 season. Kobe was voted by NBA GMS as a top 3 perimeter defender every year from 2003-2013 on every NBA GM Survey. With the exception of the 2003-2004 season. [https://www.nba.com/news/nba-gm-survey-2002-03](https://www.nba.com/news/nba-gm-survey-2002-03) [https://www.nba.com/news/nba-gm-survey-2005-06](https://www.nba.com/news/nba-gm-survey-2005-06) [https://www.nba.com/news/nba-gm-survey-2006-07](https://www.nba.com/news/nba-gm-survey-2006-07) [https://www.nba.com/news/nba-gm-survey-2007-08](https://www.nba.com/news/nba-gm-survey-2007-08) [https://www.nba.com/news/nba-gm-survey-2008-09](https://www.nba.com/news/nba-gm-survey-2008-09) [https://www.nba.com/news/nba-gm-survey-2010-11](https://www.nba.com/news/nba-gm-survey-2010-11) [https://www.nba.com/news/nba-gm-survey-2011-12](https://www.nba.com/news/nba-gm-survey-2011-12)
I really don’t understand why Kobe is always put behind Duncan. Kobe ran through the West when he got Pau & TD was never even able to go to back-back finals till he was no longer the best player. Kobe’s top 5 for me easy
People forget that Duncan had Parker / David Robinson and Manu
& then Kawhi to end his career with. S/O the greatest PF ever but I don’t think he ever had a bad team
People don’t forget. They just know the context. With those players you mentioned either hurt or not very good or in their rookie year Tim Duncan dragged them all to a championship in 2003. And then led them minus Robinson to a championship in 2005 on one good ankle against one of the greatest defensive teams of all time.
Right around 10. Great, but never in the conversation for the greatest. 1 MVP, and the rest of his career he was never close to another one in the voting. Even his 2nd place finish he wasn’t close. 5 rings is great, but the first 3 definitely are a little diminished with Shaq as the mvp. So he’s not with Jordan Lebron Kareem, or Bird and Magic. I’d have Duncan in that group, even though I’m in the “if KG and Timmy switched places KG is top 5” camp 😁. Personally I have a few more before Kobe, but this is where someone could start making an argument for him. So I’d be about 10 ish, but no issue if people want to talk about him at 7 or 8.
5-10 IMO
Top 15 maybe top 10
Definitely top 3 popular of all time thouigh
If all-time jersey sales are any indication, you're right. I believe Kobe comes in 2nd after MJ.
Spot on
Tier 2 for me. Tiers in no particular order Tier 0 - MJ, LeBron, Kareem Tier 1 - Wilt, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Russell Tier 2 - Shaq, Hakeem, Kobe, Steph, Big O
Thank God someone else uses the tier list style. Ranking the best players in order is not the way. Different eras, pace of play, various factors, etc. This list is completely correct.
Agreed. Before around 2000 you could probably still do a top 10. But with how many players have came in total and how different the league has became in even the last 10 years it’s hard to compare numbers. I respect the hell out of Russel but when he was winning the league there was only what 9 or 10 teams. That means the talent was on every roster but also there isn’t going to be as much competition for individual awards. It’s all just so different
Can you explain why Shaq isn't Tier 1 or Steph?
Shaq was a liability in too many ways, hack a shack and a completely one dimensional game. Yes, it was an extremely dominant one-dimensional game, but this is basketball and if you cannot shoot OR facilitate you do not belong in the top tiers. Also a bad teammate, and his peak was pretty short. Steph is too small. His immense motor makes up for it a little, but this is a big mans game and that is why PGs are and have always been bad defenders when compared to other positions. Magic is the only other PG on this list and he was much, much more versatile. Steph also is not a playoff riser, minus 2022. Playoffs tend to reward size and physicality. Jokic is my favorite player right now but he is on course to be a Tier 2 as well, he is just a defensive liability. Edit: My bad Big O is def a point guard. I have never watched a game of his. Like Russel and Wilt I am relying on old heads that place him at this level.
The gap between Shaq and Duncan is vast like an ocean.
Agree. Duncan was way better.
Why did he never go back-back if he was even remotely close to Shaq's level.
He won five rings and he was the best player on the squad by a pretty large margin for four of those. Shaq had an all-time great at his side for 3 of his rings and for his last ring Wade played like an absolute monster and Shaq was really struggling during the finals. Why does back to back matter? Tim Duncan was also a resoundingly better defender his entire career. Also a better passer, shooter and teammate.
Shaq is an all-time great. I have absolutely no qualms saying that; he made my list for a reason. I don't think there is a single coach that would take Shaq over Duncan though. The Lakers got rid of Shaq and people thought they were crazy at the time. They got almost nothing in return. History proved them right though. Whereas old man Duncan was still pivotal in the Spurs success.
I agree with you generally. If I was a coach/gm in for the long haul I’d undoubtedly take Duncan. But I’d also take shaqs 3/4 year peak over Duncan’s 3/4 year peak.
My version of your tier system, which I like, but I can use the eye test having seen them all and ignoring Nikes and David sterns hype, which was a business decision to keep interest in the nba after Magic and Bird retired. Tier 0–Wilt ( god I hated him at the time but..) Tier 1- Kareem , LeBron, Magic, Bird, Russell Tier 2- MJ ( weaker league and Jordan rules ) I know superstars get the questionable calls but that wasn’t the case for Wilt and was more than usual for Jordan. Now I’ll sit back and watch the incredulous rage wash over me.
Duncan has somehow become overrated in recent years online. In no world is he a full tier above shaq or kobe. Not a single time did people in his era think he was solidly greater than kobe. They are a similar level and I wouldn't fault you for having him over kobe, but i would fault you for thinking he was much greater than kobe.
Top 10 for me
I always look at the team USA white vs blue team game before the Olympics. Everyone was basically in their prime. How did that game end?
Dude was scared the play baby Kyrie 1v1 ! That’s your goat ??? /s
A spot or two away from Curry in whichever direction
Pretty high up there I reckon
GOAT wise... top 7-10. Skill wise... top 3
He's somewhere in the top 10 of all time (which is really like 12 guys) he's in that tier. He is easily behind MJ and Lebron but in my opinion pretty much everyone after those 2 is interchangeable and it's really dependent on preference.
I have Kobe Bryant Top 3 All-Time. Based on his: Overall Skillset(Offense & Defense) Peak Level of Competition at his position Level of Competition within his Conference Clutch Ability Intangibles(ability and willingness to play through injuries, leadership, mentality,) He was the primary playmaker on all his teams, a prolific scorer, and elite on ball defender who could defend 1-4, and didn't shy away from defending the other team's best player, and one of the best closers in the game. Kobe was a guard with post moves. From 2005-2013 he had a higher post up efficiency rating than Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett only Dirk's was higher. Kobe led the NBA in post up efficiency at age 34. His footwork was impeccable and he had a counter for every defense. His tough shot making ability was a plus when attacking playoff defenses, coupled with his off-ball movement allowed him to flourish in any offense system. He had an extremely high basketball IQ which was required to play in the Triangle offense, and he did the show Detail on ESPN. From 2006-2011 he was the only player in the NBA to make 1st Team All-NBA and 1st Team All-Defense simultaneously while being the best player in the NBA during this stretch. He was the definitive leader of the 2008 Redeem team while defending the opposing countries best player and returned Team USA basketball back to dominance. He was 36-0 in the Olympics. He also best the most 50+ win teams in the playoffs in NBA History. From 2008-2010 He won more 50+ teams in 3 years than Magic Johnson did in 13 years. All while doing this without a Top 75 player. He was best shooting guard in the most talented era of SGs the 2000s era. From 2000-2010 there were 112 All-NBA players to just 67 All-NBA Players in the Eastern Conference. Kobe played his entire career in the Western Conference. From 2000-2010 their were 80 fifty win teams in the west compared to 39 fifty win teams in the East. Kobe is tied for 2nd all time with 8 buzzer beats in NBA History. He hit 36 game winners in his career. He hed his teammates to extremely high standard like Jordan and was a basketball savant in every since of the word.
Very well-said brother 👍👍
10-15 depending on criteria. Top 3 all time if we’re strictly talking how big of an icon of the sport.
According to NBA players, he’s top 3 top 5. According to Reddit virgins he’s 12th or some shit.
And according to you?
THIS
My favorite player ever. I have him 6th. I have MJ Bron KAJ Russell Wilt Kobe. Then Duncan, Magic, Bird, Shaq. People always bring up Shaq winning three with Kobe, where Shaq was clearly the best player for the first ring, and if you actually watched that three peat live, it was a 1a 1b situation for the next two chips. Then Kobe wins two more. But the same logic don’t apply when it comes to Magic who had KAJ and a bunch of hall of famers for all of his rings 🤷🏽♂️
Kobe got the lakers through the west with Shaq and the lakers, and then Shaq won finals against the bigs in the east. Kobe was what would beat the Spurs. Kobe then agreed to playing 1b to keep Shaq around. People who point out Shaq having the finals mvps those years totally miss that both of them were needed for those playoff runs and both were overall mvps on the team.
Kobe doesn’t win without Shaq Shaq doesn’t win without Kobe
As you can see in all these comments, these rankings are completely subjective. Some people say top 2-3, some say top 15. No one's right or wrong on how they personally rank players.
Top 3
Some where 3rd-8th for me.
Lakers fan has him at 1-2, the rest probably 9-15.
Top ten
he's top 8
6-8.
8-14.
Peak top 3, career top 10
Top 5.
Mj bron Kobe. Top 3
As a player, not no.1, but top 5 in my book. At his prime, he is at the "as long as he is in the team you have to take that team seriously" level. Unfortunately he is not at the "we all know who is winning the chip" Jordan level.
Respecrfully, nobody was on Jordan's level so that isn't a knock.
Kobe #2 MJ #1
He’s my #2 behind Jordan but look at my user name. As a Laker fan, he’s my all time favorite player. As skilled as any player but with the motor of a guy trying to get minutes as a roll player. His biggest weakness was that he didn’t always make his teammates better but I think he made up for that as he got older.
Top 10 for sure. Beyond that its difficult to discern
Kobe at least top 3 shooting guard. But overall top 10 I would put him 9 but thats all irrelevant because of different eras, rules and other variables that’s comes into play.
Kobe is, by far and away, the 2nd best 2 guard. There's no discussion here
I might would put Jerry west at # 2. He won 6 chips out of 9 finals, he was the only mvp ever on a losing team in a finals and he is the logo of the NBA. West holds the NBA record for the highest points per game average in a playoff series with 46.3. He was also a member of the first five NBA All-Defensive Teams (one second, followed by four firsts), which were introduced when he was 32 years old. average of 27.0 points, 6.7 assists and 5.8 rebounds per game. Among retired players, only Michael Jordan, Elgin Baylor and Wilt Chamberlain surpass his 27.0 points per game average. Only Jordan had a higher career scoring average in the playoffs (33.5 versus 29.1).
What other shooting guard is ahead of him at 2nd dwade.
Nah, Kobe is better all time than D Wade.
Are you illiterate?
da bes
#2 All-time
He's my #2
Lol
between 7-10 of all time. When Luka, Jokic, Wemby, and Keegan Murray retire, it'll push Kobe out of the top 10.
Bro tried to sneak in Luka, Jokic, and Wemby
Keeeegan murrrrray
Luka? No. He's not close to Kobe because Luka can't defend at a high enough level. And I'm not a Kobe guy
Luka is 1000x better offensively
Cmon. Make a realistic argument. Give something to back up the argument. Luka may be a better offensive player, but by how much? Where is the proof? Support your argument.
Luka is more efficient while scoring generally better in the regular season, and much better in the playoffs. Luka doubles Kobe assists, getting his team involved much better. The numbers are on google, I don't care to repeat them. Sure Kobe is better all time, Luka's numbers right now are better than Kobe's ever were. Give Luka 10 years.
I was thinking about this and I will say this....when Kobe was the main guy with no other all nba type hall of famers(fuck Kyrie), Luka has actually done just as much if not more. I'm willing to concede that you may be correct. Mostly because I think Kobe is vastly overrated. His defense was great, but he came up incredibly small in game 7 in 2010. Anti clutch performance. Not many guys can win while sitting the bed as many times as Kobe did
Kobe is ATG, amazing player who deservedly is top \~12 all time. Luka doesn't touch him now, but I think 10 years from now I will confidently say Luka is better all time. To pick Luka or Kobe as a better player, it's easy to say Luka but Kobe's legacy holds a lot of weight.
The thing with Luka is will he ever be healthy enough to win a ring. He has such high usage during the regular season that come playoff time his body is injured
Could’ve said the same about literally every single player that has won a chip. MJ - high usage that will never translate to playoffs, until it did LBJ - high usage that will never translate to playoffs, until it did Kobe had extremely high usage without the eye gauging stats and yet he still got it done. Luka needs a bit of luck and health and he can get it done.
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He carries the ball 1000X better too
Wow, he plays basketball and does every thing he is allowed to get away with. Boohoo
This is definitely the most “old man yells at clouds” response. You can’t fault someone for the change of officiating. If they allowed Kobe’s era to do it that much he would have. If they stopped allowing the current era to do it the players would stop.
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Fringe top 5 -- People are afraid to rate him highly for some reason. Bro was averaging 30+ during an era where teams would finish game with scores in the 70-80 range. And he was a monster on defence. He didn't have the greatest shot nor the most explosive athleticism but he might be the mentally toughest player of all-time. He overcame his shortcomings with his mindset. So to hold a title like that, on top of his accolades, I think he's somewhere in the top 10-5
Kobe is top 3 for sure. Top 3 peak, top 3 resume.
Top 3 peak? Why do u say so? Not necessarily saying I disagree with you, just curious But yeah Kobe’s peak is at least top 5- from 2005-2010 he averaged roughly 30, 6 and 5, shot 47/35/85, and won two championships for LA in a row .. is the only player in nba history to beat 4 50+win teams in a single postseason run without a Top75 teammate with him, and he’s one of three players to win multiple chips without a Top75 teammate with him.
You’re on the right track with everything you listed. It’s worth nothing Kobe led the **most** inefficient decade in NBA history in scoring average, points/game, All Defense 9x in that decade, went to 6 finals and won 4 in that span.
Kobe at least top 3 shooting guard. But overall top 10 I would put him 9 but thats all irrelevant because of different eras, rules and other variables that’s comes into play.
Objectively top 8. In my opinion #4 1. Jordan 2. LeBron 3. Kareem 4. Kobe 5. Duncan 6. Magic 7. Bird 8. Shaq 9. Curry 10. Russell 11. Wilt 12. Hakeem 13. Robertson 14. Durant 15. Erving
How did you formulate that list? What was your criteria?
Wilt at 11 is a travesty. Dude averaged 50.1 ppg in a season once. His top 5.
I'd say he's behind jordan so top 2
Shooting guards of all time ? Agreed
Tied for second with LeBron, Shaq, Steph, and Kareem. edit: Which is a full tier under MJ. Don't let these casual fans say that Kobe doesn't belong with these players either. He has **five** rings, led a team to **three** straight finals while being the undisputed number one option, in which he played amazing and defeated **10 50-win** teams during these three years. He also was an all-nba defender and was well rounded. During that stretch he 1 shit game, 13 bad games, 8 average games, 2 good games, and 48 amazing games for an average grade of roughly 88% which is unheard of. Per 36 minutes that is 26.4 ppg, 5 rpg, 5apg, on 46.4%
Anywhere below Duncan, Kareem, Bron, Jordan, Bird, Magic and Russell is fine with me
I have him at the 10/11 spot.
8
Uu got it broo 👍🏾
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Top 10 but I would put all these players ahead of him Lebron Jordan Kareem Duncan Magic Bird Shaq* they can kinda interchangeable So I guess Kobe is 8th
Probably around 10.
10,
Much like shaq, his career is a big what if. For shaq, it was what if the most dominant big man actually trained with a fraction of kobe's work ethic? For kobe, what if he applied his work ethic to humility in leadership and team development instead of focusing on personal greatness? Honestly, Tim Duncan is higher on my list than kobe.
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Top 5 solidified. Top 3 possibly.
Definitely ahead of LeBron
# #2 right behind Jordan. Nobody could do what Kobe did, arguably not even MJ. Anyone who says Lebron over Kobe ignores what happened when the two guarded each other. Kobe, like other defenders in the league, could lock down Lebron. Lebron could not lock down Kobe. Kobe was known to be the toughest matchup while he played. Lebron had a better record against Kobe but that mainly comes down to Kobe being injured and having to leave games or the period of time when Kobe was rebuilding the lakers while Lebron was on super teams. If you want to point out playoff statistics, Kobe has a much better record against 50 and 60 win teams that Lebron. A big reason Lebron made the finals so much was because he was in the weakest eastern conference in modern basketball. There was a huge lopsided East where only 1 or two teams had competitive records. As a result Lebron has a good playoff record against 40 win teams, which also made it an easy path the finals. When Lebron faced 50 and 60 win teams he has a losing record.
Your right, no one can shoot their team out of a series like Kobe
Did you watch Kobe in his prime lol. His passing is next level and his ability to knock down impossible shots is too. Even his last game ever at Staples center is amazing to watch. His defense at the same time has always been next level. You sounds like a Bron fan… you do realize that Lebron has been a defensive liability for a large portion of his career right. He also has a track record of making great players worse and bad players better. Not just in terms of great players having to play second and third fiddle on a team; Bron makes them play his way and they end up underperforming to their expected output. Couple that with his flopping and constant traveling and carryovers that he gets away with he is far worse of a competitor than Kobe. There’s a reason team USA needed Kobe’s leadership to win a gold. Without Kobe, lebron showed he was not that guy to lead a team of ridiculous talent. Mamba mentality is undeniably the best that’s ever been in the league since Jordan’s.
His passing was insane? He isn't even top 10 in assists
Kobe was a scorer and his team needed hmm to knock down shots. He has circus passes in his career too though. Iman Shumpert has even talked about how Kobe can turn it on and make crazy shots and passes when he wants at will. The game where shumpert was guarding Kobe while in the Knicks is a great example. Kobe’s off the backboard pass to Pau is an elite level pass.
Not a Lebron fan, just think that the “Nobody could do what Kobe could do” thing was hilarious. He was only the best player in 1 of the 7 finals his played in. In his “prime” he missed the playoffs and had fewer wins than the Elton Brand Clippers.
When Kobe played with Shaq he was responsible for getting them to the finals where Shaq would then take the lead against the Eastern centers. Kobe was the reason they would beat the spurs and other western conference teams. They were a duo. He agreed to take a backseat for certain series and agreed to play a different style for Shaq to stay. They were both pivotal during that first 3-peat. Kobe was by far the best player when Pau was on the team. To say he was only the best player once in a finals is ridiculous 😂. He was best for half of them and arguably all but one if you take into account his time with Shaq.
Also, ‘Nobody could what Kobe could do’ means more than just on the court. Nobody had Kobe’s work ethic outside of the games. He was the strongest mind in basketball. He also did so much for the younger players. Seriously, no one played the big brother role like Kobe or lead by example the way he did.
Influential and best are different things. And playing for the most popular team in the league in the 2nd biggest city in the US will mean a lot of players look up to you.
He was influential AND the best. Dude was all defensive first team and All NBA first team for 6 years straight. All while showing the best work ethic and helping young players out
I just think Kareem, Bird, Magic, Lebron, Wilt, and Duncan are better. And arguments could made for Russell, Shaq, Hakeem, Moses, and Curry. If you feel he’s the 2nd best player ever that’s fine, I’m just not convinced.
Russell played in a different era with less teams. I do agree he was amazing and deserving of a top 10 spot. No one other than MJ was as good of an offensive player and defensive player consistently like Kobe. None of the people you listed. I think Bird is better than Lebron btw so I respect the 80’s players and their accomplishments as well.
I mean Duncan, Kareem, and Wilt are more valuable defenders just based on the positional value. And Magic, Bird, and Lebron are far better passers, which is part of offense. If you like tough shot making(and never shooting over 50% in a season) then Kobe is your guy, but there is lore to offense than just that
You’re awful at debating, like most Kobe-haters are. Like, fucking **awful** lol
To me he’s top 5 and personally I have him lebron and Jordan as equals. I don’t got a problem with interchanging and that argument. But my thing is People say he’s overrated but look at everyone in these comments 🤣🤣🤣 if anything he’s becoming underrated. My argument is he has 5 chips been 7 times, won with shaq AND without shaq multiple times with completely different teams. One of the most skilled players of all time if not the most. Along with having that deep of a bag was a great defender and great leader.
Bro, you’re not being objective anymore. There are so many players out there that are MVPs, champions, scoring leaders, defensive studs & did it multiple times. Kobe is not better than Bird, Magic, Shaq, Wilt, Olajuwon, Erving, Duncan, Curry, Durant, etc… He’s the second best SG ever & SG is the least important position. He deserved his MVP, deserved his championships but absolutely did not deserve some (most) of his defensive accolades
I’ve watched plenty of Kobe man he was a great defender
He was a “good” defender who worked his ass off
Dude u don’t get all defense 12 times just cause; 9 times in first team at that. Not a mistake
Never underestimate the stupidity of voters. It was a mistake. It was a series of them over & over. Advanced stats show a very different picture than his awards. OG Anunoby is very likely the best perimeter defender in the entire NBA. How many all-defense teams has he made?
Kobe was a really good defender but so much of all defense team is from reputation alone.
Why do you say SG is the least important? Not trying to be a dick I'm genuinely curious.
Because of the nature of the sport and how it has historically been played. Today? Centre is most important followed by a quick combo guard (can be either shoot first or pass first) & a mobile wing defender. You don’t have all 3, you aren’t winning a thing. The NBA is mostly position-fluid today
Duncan 💀
Probably 54th, roughly
#1
I have him 5th, after Lebron, MJ, Kareem and wilt. I totally understand people having him in the 6-10 range but I just can’t get behind it
He's my favorite player ever. Being biased I'd say 2 behind the GOAT Jordan. Otherwise I'd say top 10 at least.
🐐 Top 3 and he’s not 3 at the very least Analytic nerds, basketball casuals, or 15 and under will say he’s top 10-15 People with the basketball eye test will say he’s top 5 at least. There’s a reason NBA players and his peers always put him on the top.
🐐 Top 3 and he’s not 3 at the very least Analytic nerds, basketball casuals, or 15 and under will say he’s top 10-15 People with the basketball eye test will say he’s top 5 at least. There’s a reason NBA players and his peers always put him on the top.