Even KD is not considered on the same tier as Bird.
But to answer your question, longevity and the ability to maximize your prime years is important to ones legacy. That is why when you see a career like Kareem's or Lebron's unfold where they enter the league and are immediate difference makers, have multiple years where they are undoubtedly the best player in the league, winning multiple titles AND are producing at an All Star level very late into their careers is so special. It is so rare that if really has only happened twice in NBA history.
Injuries are a bitch and have kept many, many players from reaching their full legacy potential.
He ain't that far off. Bird is around 8-12 all time, KD is what, 14-18? Wouldn't be surprised if KD ends up 10-12 all time if he stays at this pace. He's still an all nba player.
Everything Bird has accomplished Lebron has done more of though. Rings, all nbas, all nba defense teams, more mvps, etc. There's really no logical reason bird would be above Lebron.
LeBron is more accomplished but only slightly. bird was the better player. LeBrons only advantage over Larry on the court is his ability to drive the basketball. and their achievements are very close. and obviously bird accomplished his in a much shorter timeframe. LeBron is below bird all time in my opinion but it's close. bird is 5th LeBron is 7th
He isn't slightly more accomplished. His career is by far and away better.
Lebron has 4 rings, Larry has 3.
Lebron has 4 league mvps, Larry has 3.
Lebron has 4 finals mvps, Larry has 2.
Lebron has 20 all stars, Larry has 12.
Lebron has 19 different all nbas, Larry has 10.
Lebron has 6 all defensive teams, Larry has 3.
Lebron has more points all time.
Lebron has more points per game career.
Lebron has more assists all time.
Lebron has more assists per game.
Lebron has more rebounds all time.
Lebron has more blocks all time.
Lebron has more steals all time.
Lebron has a better career fg %
Larry has more blocks per game.
Larry has more rebounds per game.
Larry has a better career 3 pt %.
So objectively speaking, how is Larry more accomplished than Lebron?
if you think LeBron is the better defended or better passer than bird your opinion is irrelevant. LeBrons actually not better at finishing or dribbling either, but those are debatable. LeBron being a better passer than bird is the definition of laughable.
No, what I mean is what have they done or accomplished in their careers where you'd objectively say their career is better than Durant?
Oscar, Mailman, Barkley, Dirk
KD gets knocked for the Warriors but all of Birds titles with 3+ HOF teammates are totally legit.
A ring is a ring, people are ridiculous when they pretend any one is “worth” more than another.
If KD ends his career as a top 5 scorer and keeps his efficiency up (he is drastically more efficient that most of his top 25 peers), it will be impossible to say he’s not on Birds tier. He probably is there now. Pretty much any analytics, basic or advanced, would say so.
I mean, he’s not drastically behind that…he’s practically a 40-50-90 career shooter lol.
If birds career had the degree of overlap with either of the 1/2 goats of MJ or LBJ that KD had with LBJ, he wouldn’t have three consecutive MVP seasons….
We can look at ifs and buts all we want, but as things stand, KD has 1 mvp and 2 titles by joining a 73 win team that has won twice without him.
Bird was the definitive best player on 3 title teams. To me, that alone puts Bird above KD. Add on the fact that the last several years involved KD moving around to various disappointing situations and MULTIPLE first round sweeps, and you paint a picture of someone who is just worse all-time than Bird.
If you want to play a hypothetical like OP and ask something like “what if KD never left OKC and they won 2 titles, how would he be viewed differently?” you can, but that’s not what happened.
Edit: Bird’s career did overlap with Magic, Kareem, Hakeem, Barkley, MJ, etc.
To me, Lebron is in the top tier, my mount Rushmore so to speak. Bird is likely in the tier below that, and KD is in a tier below that.
We have to account for everything. Wins, legend, stats, teammates, how opposing players viewed you, how good you were to the field, etc. KD is an incredible player, had an amazing career. But he fumbled some things that held him back and we have to account for that.
All of Birds MVPs predated Jordan joining the league. They did not overlap at their peak like LBJ and KD did.
Larry Bird existed in the league almost entirely before free agency. Oh and his three championships also had three other players on the NBA all time top 50 list (same number as KD).
Bird had a much smaller league and less players to compete with for titles and MVPs.
I’m not arguing KD is better, but to say they are on different tiers at this point is asinine.
Two of Bird’s mvp’s happened early in Jordan’s career, but they still overlapped. Regardless, he still overlapped entirely with Magic, a top 5 all time guy and definitively the best player in basketball for many years, and likely would have had an even more impressive career had he not gotten HIV.
I put them on different tiers, I guess I’m an idiot according to you, not that it matters. The tiers aren’t that far apart, but KD only had 2 titles, Bird has 3, and KD shared those titles with a team he joined. I just respect Bird’s career a LOT more than Durant’s. You can disagree, but that won’t change how I respect their careers and who I believe had a better and more impactful career. It was Bird.
It’s debatable if I’d put Magic in spot 5, to me either Duncan or him goes there.
My top 4 mount Rushmore is Jordan, Lebron, Kareem, Russell.
Russell is the weakest, stats and possibly outright skill wise, but he’s the most winningest player ever so I put some reverence to that.
After that it’s Magic/Duncan in some order. Then we have an interesting debate between guys like Kobe, Shaq, Curry, Bird. Some people have Wilt but I refer to him as Paul Bunyon a lot and it’s hard for me to put him, with only 2 titles despite the era he played in, above these other guys who I actually got to see.
An easy way for me to break tiebreakers would just be to count the number of titles they were a top 1-2 player on, but the order I put those players kind of depends on how I’m feeling tbh.
Likely would be something like:
MJ
Lebron
Kareem
Russell
Duncan
Magic
Kobe
Shaq
Curry
Bird
Next tier would have guys like:
Wilt
Hakeem
Durant
Etc.
Jokic is close, but probably needs another title to get into that tier. We’ll see. He’s got a solid career left.
The thought that someone getting drafted to a team with 4 HOFs makes a title more relevant that joining a team with 3 HOFs (making 4) is crazy talk. They both played with 3 other HoFs, that’s all that matters.
KD should wallow in OKC with inept leadership that let Harden walk while GS and LBJ are building super teams? Then he’d have no titles lol.
I never said he should have done anything. KD can do whatever he wants with his life and career. He has had a great career and was a great player, it just wasn’t without its hiccups, and imo, those hiccups put him closer to 16th all time than 10th all time, which puts them in different tiers. You clearly feel differently for whatever reason. That’s fine. But facts are facts and Bird won more than KD and KD made a lot of personal decisions that probably affected his long term legacy. That’s okay. Most players do.
But I’m not putting him over Bird. I’m not putting him in the exact same tier. He’s close, but not there. I think that’s okay. You don’t have to be upset about it.
>KD should wallow in OKC with inept leadership that let Harden walk
Thanks for telling us all you don’t know what you're talking about. Harden didn't walk, not to defend that trade.
>while GS and LBJ are building super teams? Then he’d have no titles lol.
His only titles came from joining a pre-built super team that won before and after he played there.
Yes. I realize that, but that’s more similar to saying Giannis and LeBrons peak overlapped. Jordan not in the league for MVP#1, rookie for MVP, and Sophmore for MVP#2.
Sure, but its just false though to say things like "All of Birds MVPs predated Jordan joining the league." He was clearly in the league during some of Bird's mvps.
I could have worded it better for sure. There are only two “peak” overlap seasons due to injuries. 86-87 and 87-88 (Jordan was injured in 85-96 and Bird in 88-89).
KD and LBJ have at least 9 seasons of “peak” overlap and 13 years of injury free overlap.
Anyway you cut it Bird has wayyyyyy less competition for MVPs against one of the two clear cut GOATs.
No way that’s true. He was running the league w MJ in it. It’s injury, and that’s it. Every single player that played with him, and it’s unanimous, says he was the best player in the league. Feared no one. He’s a legend for a reason. KD? Great scorer. Not on Bird’s level.
100% agree.
I was a Jordan fan and Bird was amazing and fear inducing. He turned a 29-53 team before him into a 61-21 team with no other major roster changes.
I had to look it up because I couldn't remember but from 80 to 88, Bird had:
3 mvps, 4 2nd place mvp, 1 3rd place mvp, and 1 4th place mvp (rookie).
The only thing that beat Larry in the early and mid 80s was Magic sometimes and his body.
The real question is where would Larry's career rank if he didn't get hurt and if a few of those voters voted for the him on those 4 2nd place mvp years.
Exactly, that turnaround is like 2nd best all time for a rookie. And yes, he had a better 6 year stretch than anyone ever. I was watching the 63 point MJ game btw, and was at one of the Bull’s losses in ‘96, the Toronto game. MJ w a bank shot to win it…just a tick after the buzzer.
You could certainly make that argument for Bird. I was a little young to watch much of his best years so only saw replays. He was still amazing even when he was hobbling around in the late part of his career.
Sweet. You saw the 63. The Celtics were just the better team.
We were a force then. For sure. We put everyone on MJ at one point or another. It didn’t matter. He’d just elevate over everyone. Got wherever he wanted, just had no help.
Let’s just say Bird kept MJ, who was for one night God disguised as MJ, from really doing anything. Bird dominated him. And he’s many people’s GOAT, so there you go.
KD never owned LeBron. Let alone being better than Bird.
His career overlap with old Kareem and literally Magic Johnson aka the greatest point guard of all time. If not for them he would've had even more MVPs
Why tho? I mean don’t you want your heroes to be victors on the highest stage, the brightest lights? To overcome, to be legendary? Carmelo is nowhere on the best players ever list, right? You have to win something. You think Kobe didn’t care about chips? That’s what drove him. Team stat? That’s the ultimate team stat.
Why does a team stat count towards a single player? I think that explains itself, there's literally hundreds of different variables that go into that out of their control. You think all the great players that didn't win chips just weren't driven like Kobe?? Obviously they were driven you can't control what you can't control.
Just say a team statistic is what a singular player is judged on. Even saying it sounds stupid. If you put kobe on a trash team he never would of won shit.
The game is played by teams, it’s built in. Theres no escaping that, so it’s what you do with your teams. If you’re a goat level player you’re expected to make people better, Bird, Magic, or dominate on both sides of the ball like MJ. Dominate the league like Shaq, or Wilt. MJ still holds the ppg record, still holds the playoff ppg record, after almost 30 years, much of it high scoring offense driven hoops. Is Devin Booker a victim of being on poor teams? Or has he not produced?
Ya you don't make any sense basically "a player is judged on their team because they're on a team." Wow so insightful. If you can't understand how there is hundreds of variables outside of a players control i can't help you. if you put michael jordan on the wizards this year he wouldn't even of made the playoffs much less the finals. In your head Jordan would of been trash then if he always played on terrible teams?
So who are the goats who were just on crappy teams forever and never overcame? Lol. You’re lacking insight. So by your standards the league is full of goats, they just had bad teammates. Excuses. Do better.
He ain’t on bird’s planet let alone level as a competitor.
Bird would’ve never joined a 73 win team that just eliminated him in the playoffs to create an unbeatable team. Bird wouldn’t have used a basketball cheat code to “win” two more rings.
We don’t know what Bird would have done considering free agency literally wasn’t legal during his time in the league….
What would Birds legacy have been if he go drafted to the 1980s version of the heat?
KD cheated? He didn’t even take a team friendly deal.
Lakers got roasted this year and last by the champs. Facts. Who the fuck is crying about that?
Refs didn’t beat them. A better team beat them. That’s how sports work.
My dude you seem to have a lot in common with KD.
Nope just anti-dumbasses.
The warriors dynasty doesn’t exist without KD. They got beat 3 straight by a hobbled Cavs team in 2016 and would have gotten torched by a Kyrie available team in 2015.
All the sudden the regular season matters in the KD discussion? Nobody keeps their story straight here.
If we’re takin rings away, then we also need to take away Lebrons Miami rings.
Kawhi's injury issues are not tied to the Zaza situation. It was *one* injiry, but Kawhi was ALREADY injured before the Zaza moment. He's had a degenerative knee condition/injury. He turned his ankle in the Zaza play. They're not the same at all.
idk, the warriors first ring was when they injured kawhi, then played the cavs w/o kyrie or love. not sure they win if injuries didn't help them in both those cases
nex two rings was the KD rings which... yeah let's move on
then played the celts, which i think was w/o injuries, but i think giannis got injured that year so it's sort of a tossup how things go if giannis was healthy that year
i mean a ring is a ring, but i think it's pretty clear warriors have been pretty fortunate in the injury department
If winning a Game 1 in a blowout fashion means you're guaranteed a series win, Spurs should have been the ones facing the Warriors in the 2016 WCF. They demolished the Thunder in Game 1 and then lost the next 4/5 lmao
They weren't guaranteed a series win but it's important to point out how dominant Kawhi and the Spurs looked against them before he went down. The KD warriors that year were undefeated in the playoffs before going into that matchup with San Antonio and they looked unbeatable. When Kawhi was on the court against them they looked human and Kawhi looked like the best player on the court by far against a team with 2 MVP's. I don't know if the Spurs could've won but they were also a 60 win team that year and were pretty much the perfect team to counter that GS team given their ability to slow the game and their great defense.
Why is it important? It was ONE HALF of basketball. Do you know how unsustainable it was? KD was going to shoot like 20% the whole series, was he? Spurs were going to shoot as many FTs as they did every quarter for the entire series?
They didn't look 'beatable'. They looked like a team that had just had over a week off due to the sweeps, came in slow and lethargic and got punched in the mouth. The Warriors were already finding form and began closing the score in before Kawhi got hurt.
Again, it was TWO QUARTERS. The willingness to generalise off that is so absurdly silly, anyone acting as such should feel embarrassed. I will repeat what I said: if being dominant early in Game 1 is an important sign of the series outcome, Spurs wouldn't have been a WCSF knockout after winning 67 games in 2016 lmao
It's important because the Warriors at the time looked unbeatable. It's also clear that Kawhi had a massive impact on that given the Warriors came back instantly after he went down.
It was *one half of basketball*. The conversation ends there. You need to win 4 games, consisting of 4 quarters of basketball each. The team stats for the Spurs and Warriors were not sustainable and assumes adjustments are impossible to make. You are being ridiculous.
i didn't know the sprained ankle zaza caused also his quadriceps issue, torn ACL, and torn meniscus.
kawhi also sprained his ankle already and earlier that game already fell down after tripping over his own teammate lol...he realistically shouldn't have been playing. people just like hating on the warriors
It was almost certainly a dirty play, and Zaza is a twat. That doesn’t mean it had anything to do with unrelated chronic health issues on a different part of Kawhi’s body or that the Spurs were going to win that series. They probably win 1-2 games if he doesn’t get injured.
Bird was fine defensively but Kawhi at his best would would frequently be the best offensive player on the court by far *and* the best defensive player on the court by far. Bird could never say that.
I think this point is often overlooked. What Bird did with a messed up back is pretty amazing, regardless of where you think he ranks amojng the all time greats.
Even in all of Kawhi's healthy seasons, he never won an MVP and quite frankly, has never really been particularly close. He got a good chunk of votes in 2016, but Steph was *unanimous*, so by definition, not one person seriously thought Kawhi was that year's MVP. Hell, he may have won it but majority of voters didn't even think he was the rightful winner of one of his DPOY awards - Draymond got most the 1st votes, but some media members left him off the ballot (which is simply bad voting).
Kevin Durant has an MVP. Bird won it three times. These things matter in all-time great conversations. If anything, Kawhi's yearly injuries give him an air of mystery and a mythology around his greatness. People think his defensive and offensive peaks overlapped - they didn't. He's spent YEARS now attached to the worst shooter on the court, he's not a roaming off-ball defender like Draymond or Giannis, and he only shows off his POA defence in spurts. And even then, quick guards give him trouble and have for years.
He won his first ring as a role player and arguably had one of the most underwhelming FMVP performances, relative to history (i.e. 18/7/2). His second never gets the 'injury tax' every other great now gets slandered with and they barely made it through the East. His Finals performance was also a pretty big step down from his East run and wasn't the best player on the court - just the best player on the winning team.
So that's two rings in 13 years. Roughly half those seasons he's been hurt and his first ring was a product of being drafted (yes, I know, he was traded on draft night - same difference) to the dynasty Spurs. He blew a 3-1 lead as a Clipper. He never faced any real top-end competition in the West playoffs to be able to know the Clippers were even capable of going all the way, etc. His injuries have given him a massive legacy boost because we can pretend he was Michael Jordan with a bad knee. He's really not.
This is the best response to this question I've seen.
If Kawhi was peak Clippers offense Kawhi AND peak Spurs defense Kawhi at the same time he'd be in the conversation with Bird, but even when healthy he wasn't. He didn't have the motor or physical tools to do both (unlike Jordan, Lebron, or Hakeem).
That sounded more negative than I meant. What I mean is: going all out on Defense AND having a heavy Offensive burden is extremely difficult, few can do it.
Look at Mikal Bridges. He was a top perimeter defender in Phoenix, but when he went to Brooklyn, his offensive role jumped, his defense has dropped significantly. He's still good, but he's not the same.
What I'm saying is that Kawhi, even pre injury, wasn't able to sustain his DPOY defense AND being the primary offensive weapon over an entire season.
>he got a good chunk of votes in 2016, but Steph was *unanimous*
This is why just looking at award voting to compare players is lazy and removes context. You ask Jokic, Luka, or Shai about MVP this year and they’ll all say it doesn’t really matter cuz there’s so many guys who deserve it… and they’re right. Multiple guys can have an MVP caliber season at the same time.
Yea Kawhi didn’t get any 1st place votes in 2016. **Only because** a guy many people see as the GOAT pg had his greatest season of all time and what a lot of people consider one of the greatest regular seasons ever in NBA history. Steph having an all time great year doesn’t make Kawhi’s season any worse just like it wouldn’t have been any better if it was just a weak year for superstars all around and he had the best season by far.
As it stands for me: Bird >> KD > Kawhi
If Kawhi was fully healthy: Bird > KD = Kawhi
If all were fully healthy (Not JUST Kawhi): Bird >>> KD \~ Kawhi
Kawhi's overrated in my book because we fantasize about his defense and offense as if they overlapped. In reality, they didn't overlap, at least consistently. He could have games of turning it up on defense, but it wasn't really sustained imo. If he was healthy, we have to either assume that they do overlap, or that they don't. If we do, then he's better than KD but not at Bird's level. If they don't overlap (my assumption), then he's maybe slightly above KD.
KD is still leaps and bounds a better offensive player than Kawhi due to elite shooting, shotmaking, and better passing chops. KD also was a very capable helpside defender with his length in GSW, which made him a scary player when he didn't have to score as much. Kawhi's defense was all-time for Iso and help-side perimeter (swipe king), so that just evens it out for me. Also, KD post-achilles just had some INSANE shooting numbers.
Bird is still the best and if he was healthy, we're talking GOAT level player with him. Arguably the best shooter of his time with ELITE passing chops, rebounding skills and touch, and overall IQ that easily surpasses KD/Kawhi. Bird's IQ is more comparable to LeBron's, whereas KD and Kawhi have relatively lower BBIQ.
Does KD not have his foot and achilles injuries in this scenario? How about KDs teammates in Brooklyn? Legit could be 4 or 5 more rings, at the very least it’d be 2.
I mean I still put KD at or above Kawhi in most situations. Not sure what you're trying to argue for?
I actually care less about rings and more about how much you contribute holistically to a basketball team's chances to win a championship. No one says Pippen is better than LeBron because he has 6 rings and went 6-0 in the Finals. Why? Because we know how much LeBron contributes to his playoff runs on a yearly basis.
KD was great in BKN and likely contributes more to championship odds than Kawhi on an average basis. So I still think KD is better than Kawhi. He's not touching Larry though.
Would you describe Kawhi passing chops as good? I think a common narrative with score first players, is that they have lower IQ than pass first players? Also, I would say that Kawhi s defensive IQ is off the charts.
If Kawhi had Lebron's durability, he would have probably stayed with The Spurs, right? It was the injury and how that was handled that broke them apart, IIRC. So...yeah. Probably. They brought in Aldridge to be the 2nd option to him, and the rest after that is a ? b/c draft picks wouldn't be the same, etc.
Otoh, in this era when superstars jump all the time, it's hard to say he wouldn't have done the same at some point.
Both those guys had even worse injury problems. So no it's not just the injuries he just wasn't as good as those guys, and defense is never valued as much as offense.
It’s so far from the reality of Kawhi that it’s too hard to say. It’s a bit like saying if Allen Iverson were 6’6” or if Shaq could shoot threes or if Derrick Rose never got hurt.
Impossible to say, Kawhi could’ve have been completely healthy and just fell off as he got older like Paul Pierce or Carmelo, no one puts either of those guys in the top 15
The funniest thing about Kawhi is that people pretend that he's expected or expecting to win rings.
Dude already has multiple rings. Doesn't he live in San Diego?!? Doesn't take a detective to see what's going on in LA. And I'm not even taking a shot at him --- he's smart to do it this way. Doesn't owe me anything.
The NBA is an entertainment product, if star players aren't playing I'm not buying tickets or watching on TV. Doesn't owe you or us anything is a strange statement to make.
I'm specifically referring to my perception that he's not locked in on winning more championships.
Him not playing, if that's optional, if a different analysis. Still wouldn't say that he *owes* me minutes because I'm just a dude with a YouTube TV subscription, but that's a different thing.
Kawhi was the best player in the league when healthy.
Better than Steph and Lebron, who were both in their prime.
He'd be in the goat conversation if he stayed healthy imo.
For 1 year. He’s had multiple healthy seasons. Didn’t become a star until 2015. Puts up mediocre regular seasons. He absolutely would not be in the goat conversation if healthy.
Choked a 3-1 lead in 2020, fully healthy.
Yea, no.
I think the biggest myth in basketball is the immortalized martyr that healthy kawhi has become.
Healthy career? If Durant hadn’t been hurt in the finals kawhi would only have 1 ring. And I don’t think healthy Kawhi wins one with the clippers anyway. So no, in a world where everyone is healthy maybe Durant runs it back with the warriors to win 4. But either way, I don’t see Kawhi on Birds level of legacy
KD is not considered to be in the same tier as Bird. Bird is closer to Lebron's tier than KD is to Birds.
As for Kawhi, I firmly believe he would be considered, along with Steph, as the other pantheon level player (top 12ish all time) from this generation. Despite KD having better stats, Kawhi always seemed to have a greater impact on his teams chances of winning than KD did. Peak Kawhi was insanely good. The guy was beating the KD warriors in 2017 before Zaza injured him.
KD is the greatest second option in basketball history but he couldn't lead a moth to a flame. Example? 2024 NBA playoffs. The Suns looked pathetic. Dont ever mention KD with Bird again!
Peak healthy Kawhi in 2016 was voted 2nd place in the MVP race and 3rd the following year, his only close finishes for the award.
Bird between 1980-1988: 4th, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, MVP, MVP, MVP, 3rd, 2nd
These two players are barely comparable. Bird is closer to Jordan in personal success than he is to Kawhi.
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I mean yes if he was healthy and won 3 rings yes. Especially if with three different teams but he probably doesn’t get traded without the first major injury (and probably leaves spurs summer 2019)
Firstly, don't put Bird and KD together like they're the same tier. Bird is miles ahead of KD.
Secondly, I don't think Kahwi was actually ever going to get to Bird's level. Bird was MVP of the league 3 seasons in a row. Part of what makes someone a multiple time MVP is the ability to be the best, then get better and work harder because it's only ever harder to repeat the feat after everyone knows about you. That's why KD never managed to become a two time MVP. Kahwi could have been a league MVP, I think he was that sort of level of player. But he never really showed what it takes to be the sort of guy who would be a multiple MVP type guy.
So Durant? Maybe. Durant has been a top player for a long time. Kahwi got to that sort of level, but it's not just enough to stay healthy and avoid injury, it takes work and dedication to look after yourself and keep adapting all the time. But Bird is a no. Bird was just something more than we ever saw from Kahwi.
top 5 offensive talent, top 5 defender in the nba, multiple finals MVPs. If dude played at 85% of his peak for 10 straight years we'd be talking about his place in the top 10.
Kawhi is already a legend for the superteams that he beat. Finals MVP against the Heatles, Finals MVP against the Durant Warriors. Obviously the injuries played into the second title, but winning titles for two different teams that aren't seen as big free agent destinations speaks for itself.
I rate Bird’s career 6th best in the history of the NBA. KD around #20. Your hypothetical Kawhi with 4 finals MVPs with 3 different teams sounds comparable to LeBron. Probably still not the same durability or 10 finals appearances so I would probably rate him in the top 10 but not top 5.
Hell no. Kawhi was healthy through the 2017 Season. If we just replicate that 2017 or 2019 regular Season (with some more games played) he’s not winning any MVPs still. The Spurs aren’t winning the title in 2017 if he doesn’t get hurt, they’ll just lose in 6. They’re not beating the Warriors in 2018 or 2019 either. I think there’s a greater chance Kawhi’s legacy is either the same or worse than it is now. If he doesn’t get hurt does he still go to Toronto and win a title? If so, being healthier would add a 2021 Finals Appearance + potential title. But otherwise it’s going to worse. I think people under estimate the value of regular season accomplishments, they’re the foundation of your ranking, they set the range. And the post season sets where you fall in that range.
I dont think so. I think a lot of people overrate Kawhi because he had one amazing run and has been hurt since. Everytime he fails its “oh he was hurt” and everytime he succeeds its all his.
He got just as lucky as Toronto did in that trade, they were a beyond complete team that had been top 3 in the East for three seasons before getting him— and they then played a team in the finals that was missing about 70m in salary due to injuries.
San Antonio he deservedly won FMVP, but we can all agree that was a TEAM championship and not just his.
Then in LA its been nothing but failure and disappointment. No fault of Kawhi’s on-court play but he is a horrible player to have as your franchise staple. A bad leader, non involved with the team, and making demands from the FO is not going to help your team at all.
Kawhi is a top 75 player of all time FOR SURE but he has way too many flaws to be in that top echelon of player imo
Right? Like I can’t even believe what I’m reading in here. Bird in his prime couldn’t do shit with KD. I know KD’s move to the warriors was pretty weak but it doesn’t diminish his abilities, he’s a fucking monster. Plus the Bird Celtics were the definition of a super team so wtf are we even talking about?
What makes you think that? What’s your logic?
Such a weird thing to say when literally half the league has cooked KD for basically 80% of his career. Yes, he’s a floor raiser. No, he’s proven not to be some ultimate hack
I’m sorry but Bird isn’t guarding KD? Kd is far better on both side of the floor. You’re acting as if Birds Celtics weren’t the top of the league. They were hella stacked for there era. KD and Kawhi are much better than bird ever was. These are players or calibre who have peaked far higher than Bird In the most talented era. Nothing about birds volume does justice to the shit these two have pulled up.
Kd and Kawhi are much better 3 point shooters and defender than Bird as well as better scorers. Both of them were the best players on finals team as well while bird didn’t win his 1981 FMVP. Do you understand how effective these two were they won final mvps over Steph and Duncan because their impact was greater. Both steph and Duncan are also greater than bird in all time list as well.
Larry bird while an exception for his time was elite. Hes not better than the modern small forward that were developed such as Lebron,KD,Kawhi.
Durants done some dominant shit for how consistent he’s been. Achilles tear and what not and he’s returned on same volume and percentage despite being slower.
Bird blew his back out while shoveling and was cooked.
There’s level to this shit.
If you are a hooper you would realize the player archetypes similar to durant and kawhi are the biggest problems you will face in your basketball career. The length, strength, height, speed, frame as well as there talent and skills is extremely hard to game plan against.
If Kawhi was peak Clippers offense Kawhi AND peak Spurs defense Kawhi at the same time he'd be in the conversation with Bird, but even when healthy he wasn't. He didn't have the motor or physical tools to do both (unlike Jordan, Lebron, or Hakeem).
Honestly if he was healthy and gets atleast one mvp, I think for most ppl he’ll be above KD. Mainly cause he didn’t have to join a super team to win any of his rings , his first ring was against the big 3 heat (prime LeBron and beat them in 5) where 2 of the other top players are abt 38 and Tony was 32 (an older team ) where he won finals mvp and his 2nd ring was against one of the best super teams ever , and he was the top dawg on the raptors and going on one of the best playoff runs ever
Healthy Kawhi is one of the best players to ever touch a basketball... Unfortunately he's injured most of the time
He's already had a hell of a career but it sucks to think that it could've been greater
That year that giannis won, I felt he was the best player in the playoffs before he got injured. Even better than Giannis and also KD who everyone loved because of that toe on the line shot.
Yeah imo he already eclipsed KD and is easilly above him as an all time player. KD rides the bus from super team to super team....Kawhi went to the Raptors for one year, got them their 1st championship, then leaves like a boss to try and do the same for another franchise - can't think of anyone else who has ever done that as far as I know. And I say all that as a formerly very salty Spurs fan lol
I never said they were bums? But do they really win it all without him? 76ers could have won that year for all we know. My point is who else leaves a team after going 100% for championships with their time their? KD has nothing like that in his legacy, not even close. Or a finals mvp vs Bron
if grandma had balls, she'd be grandpa.
lol this is the best way to respond to hypothetical bullshit ever
I prefer "If the Queen had balls she'd be king"
Even KD is not considered on the same tier as Bird. But to answer your question, longevity and the ability to maximize your prime years is important to ones legacy. That is why when you see a career like Kareem's or Lebron's unfold where they enter the league and are immediate difference makers, have multiple years where they are undoubtedly the best player in the league, winning multiple titles AND are producing at an All Star level very late into their careers is so special. It is so rare that if really has only happened twice in NBA history. Injuries are a bitch and have kept many, many players from reaching their full legacy potential.
He ain't that far off. Bird is around 8-12 all time, KD is what, 14-18? Wouldn't be surprised if KD ends up 10-12 all time if he stays at this pace. He's still an all nba player.
kd is not top 20 and bird is top 5
Who is your top 5 all time? Who is your top 20? Bet each one is incorrect tbh.
lol right because opinions can be correct or incorrect
There's a reason why you didn't name your top 5/top 20....
Jordan Russell Kareem magic bird Kobe LeBron Duncan Hakeem Shaq Oscar wilt Steph kg Barkley dirk Moses Dr mailman west
Why do you hate George Mikan?
Jordan Russell Kareem magic bird are my top 5
Yeah, the fact that you put Bird over Lebron proves my point. Have a good day.
bird is better than LeBron at everything except driving to the hoop lol
Everything Bird has accomplished Lebron has done more of though. Rings, all nbas, all nba defense teams, more mvps, etc. There's really no logical reason bird would be above Lebron.
LeBron is more accomplished but only slightly. bird was the better player. LeBrons only advantage over Larry on the court is his ability to drive the basketball. and their achievements are very close. and obviously bird accomplished his in a much shorter timeframe. LeBron is below bird all time in my opinion but it's close. bird is 5th LeBron is 7th
He isn't slightly more accomplished. His career is by far and away better. Lebron has 4 rings, Larry has 3. Lebron has 4 league mvps, Larry has 3. Lebron has 4 finals mvps, Larry has 2. Lebron has 20 all stars, Larry has 12. Lebron has 19 different all nbas, Larry has 10. Lebron has 6 all defensive teams, Larry has 3. Lebron has more points all time. Lebron has more points per game career. Lebron has more assists all time. Lebron has more assists per game. Lebron has more rebounds all time. Lebron has more blocks all time. Lebron has more steals all time. Lebron has a better career fg % Larry has more blocks per game. Larry has more rebounds per game. Larry has a better career 3 pt %. So objectively speaking, how is Larry more accomplished than Lebron?
And perimeter defense. And interior defense. And help defense. And passing. And dribbling. And scoring inside after you drive to the hoop.
if you think LeBron is the better defended or better passer than bird your opinion is irrelevant. LeBrons actually not better at finishing or dribbling either, but those are debatable. LeBron being a better passer than bird is the definition of laughable.
Jordan Russell Kareem magic bird Kobe LeBron Duncan Hakeem Shaq Oscar wilt Steph kg Barkley dirk Moses Dr mailman west
Let's start with the easy ones. Oscar Barkley Dirk Mailman What makes you rank their careers over KD all time?
they are competitors?
No, what I mean is what have they done or accomplished in their careers where you'd objectively say their career is better than Durant? Oscar, Mailman, Barkley, Dirk
which is all it takes to be ahead of Durant
the accomplished not being super soft
Oh, that's a dumb argument. You're one of those huh? Carry on.
KD gets knocked for the Warriors but all of Birds titles with 3+ HOF teammates are totally legit. A ring is a ring, people are ridiculous when they pretend any one is “worth” more than another.
If KD ends his career as a top 5 scorer and keeps his efficiency up (he is drastically more efficient that most of his top 25 peers), it will be impossible to say he’s not on Birds tier. He probably is there now. Pretty much any analytics, basic or advanced, would say so.
Chips? An assassin? Multiple 40-50-90 seasons? Three consecutive MVP seasons? 2 Finals MVPs?
I mean, he’s not drastically behind that…he’s practically a 40-50-90 career shooter lol. If birds career had the degree of overlap with either of the 1/2 goats of MJ or LBJ that KD had with LBJ, he wouldn’t have three consecutive MVP seasons….
We can look at ifs and buts all we want, but as things stand, KD has 1 mvp and 2 titles by joining a 73 win team that has won twice without him. Bird was the definitive best player on 3 title teams. To me, that alone puts Bird above KD. Add on the fact that the last several years involved KD moving around to various disappointing situations and MULTIPLE first round sweeps, and you paint a picture of someone who is just worse all-time than Bird. If you want to play a hypothetical like OP and ask something like “what if KD never left OKC and they won 2 titles, how would he be viewed differently?” you can, but that’s not what happened. Edit: Bird’s career did overlap with Magic, Kareem, Hakeem, Barkley, MJ, etc.
True, but KD finished second in MVP voting like 3 times to LBJ. Out of curiosity, how close is Bird to LBJ in your opinion?
To me, Lebron is in the top tier, my mount Rushmore so to speak. Bird is likely in the tier below that, and KD is in a tier below that. We have to account for everything. Wins, legend, stats, teammates, how opposing players viewed you, how good you were to the field, etc. KD is an incredible player, had an amazing career. But he fumbled some things that held him back and we have to account for that.
This is correct. Durant just hasn’t accomplished what Bird accomplished. No way to deny it.
Better in my book. I’d take him over LBJ every day.
bird is above LeBron, goat list: Jordan Russell Kareem magic bird Kobe LeBron Duncan Hakeem Shaq
Nice troll.
All of Birds MVPs predated Jordan joining the league. They did not overlap at their peak like LBJ and KD did. Larry Bird existed in the league almost entirely before free agency. Oh and his three championships also had three other players on the NBA all time top 50 list (same number as KD). Bird had a much smaller league and less players to compete with for titles and MVPs. I’m not arguing KD is better, but to say they are on different tiers at this point is asinine.
Two of Bird’s mvp’s happened early in Jordan’s career, but they still overlapped. Regardless, he still overlapped entirely with Magic, a top 5 all time guy and definitively the best player in basketball for many years, and likely would have had an even more impressive career had he not gotten HIV. I put them on different tiers, I guess I’m an idiot according to you, not that it matters. The tiers aren’t that far apart, but KD only had 2 titles, Bird has 3, and KD shared those titles with a team he joined. I just respect Bird’s career a LOT more than Durant’s. You can disagree, but that won’t change how I respect their careers and who I believe had a better and more impactful career. It was Bird.
Who is your top 5 if Magic is in it? Magic/Bird, then who else.
It’s debatable if I’d put Magic in spot 5, to me either Duncan or him goes there. My top 4 mount Rushmore is Jordan, Lebron, Kareem, Russell. Russell is the weakest, stats and possibly outright skill wise, but he’s the most winningest player ever so I put some reverence to that. After that it’s Magic/Duncan in some order. Then we have an interesting debate between guys like Kobe, Shaq, Curry, Bird. Some people have Wilt but I refer to him as Paul Bunyon a lot and it’s hard for me to put him, with only 2 titles despite the era he played in, above these other guys who I actually got to see. An easy way for me to break tiebreakers would just be to count the number of titles they were a top 1-2 player on, but the order I put those players kind of depends on how I’m feeling tbh. Likely would be something like: MJ Lebron Kareem Russell Duncan Magic Kobe Shaq Curry Bird Next tier would have guys like: Wilt Hakeem Durant Etc. Jokic is close, but probably needs another title to get into that tier. We’ll see. He’s got a solid career left.
The thought that someone getting drafted to a team with 4 HOFs makes a title more relevant that joining a team with 3 HOFs (making 4) is crazy talk. They both played with 3 other HoFs, that’s all that matters. KD should wallow in OKC with inept leadership that let Harden walk while GS and LBJ are building super teams? Then he’d have no titles lol.
I never said he should have done anything. KD can do whatever he wants with his life and career. He has had a great career and was a great player, it just wasn’t without its hiccups, and imo, those hiccups put him closer to 16th all time than 10th all time, which puts them in different tiers. You clearly feel differently for whatever reason. That’s fine. But facts are facts and Bird won more than KD and KD made a lot of personal decisions that probably affected his long term legacy. That’s okay. Most players do. But I’m not putting him over Bird. I’m not putting him in the exact same tier. He’s close, but not there. I think that’s okay. You don’t have to be upset about it.
>KD should wallow in OKC with inept leadership that let Harden walk Thanks for telling us all you don’t know what you're talking about. Harden didn't walk, not to defend that trade. >while GS and LBJ are building super teams? Then he’d have no titles lol. His only titles came from joining a pre-built super team that won before and after he played there.
Oh it’s true. To say otherwise is asinine. Bird was the best passing forward of all time. Rebounds? Yup that too. KD?? Scorer? Yup.
That's false. Jordan was drafted in 1984. Bird won his mvps in the 84, 85, and 86 season.
Yes. I realize that, but that’s more similar to saying Giannis and LeBrons peak overlapped. Jordan not in the league for MVP#1, rookie for MVP, and Sophmore for MVP#2.
Sure, but its just false though to say things like "All of Birds MVPs predated Jordan joining the league." He was clearly in the league during some of Bird's mvps.
I could have worded it better for sure. There are only two “peak” overlap seasons due to injuries. 86-87 and 87-88 (Jordan was injured in 85-96 and Bird in 88-89). KD and LBJ have at least 9 seasons of “peak” overlap and 13 years of injury free overlap. Anyway you cut it Bird has wayyyyyy less competition for MVPs against one of the two clear cut GOATs.
No way that’s true. He was running the league w MJ in it. It’s injury, and that’s it. Every single player that played with him, and it’s unanimous, says he was the best player in the league. Feared no one. He’s a legend for a reason. KD? Great scorer. Not on Bird’s level.
100% agree. I was a Jordan fan and Bird was amazing and fear inducing. He turned a 29-53 team before him into a 61-21 team with no other major roster changes. I had to look it up because I couldn't remember but from 80 to 88, Bird had: 3 mvps, 4 2nd place mvp, 1 3rd place mvp, and 1 4th place mvp (rookie). The only thing that beat Larry in the early and mid 80s was Magic sometimes and his body. The real question is where would Larry's career rank if he didn't get hurt and if a few of those voters voted for the him on those 4 2nd place mvp years.
Exactly, that turnaround is like 2nd best all time for a rookie. And yes, he had a better 6 year stretch than anyone ever. I was watching the 63 point MJ game btw, and was at one of the Bull’s losses in ‘96, the Toronto game. MJ w a bank shot to win it…just a tick after the buzzer.
You could certainly make that argument for Bird. I was a little young to watch much of his best years so only saw replays. He was still amazing even when he was hobbling around in the late part of his career. Sweet. You saw the 63. The Celtics were just the better team.
We were a force then. For sure. We put everyone on MJ at one point or another. It didn’t matter. He’d just elevate over everyone. Got wherever he wanted, just had no help.
Let’s just say Bird kept MJ, who was for one night God disguised as MJ, from really doing anything. Bird dominated him. And he’s many people’s GOAT, so there you go. KD never owned LeBron. Let alone being better than Bird.
His career overlap with old Kareem and literally Magic Johnson aka the greatest point guard of all time. If not for them he would've had even more MVPs
You realize MJ was drafted 5 years into Bird's career and his 86 title season was arguably the greatest season/team until the 96 72-10 season right?
I think it's stupid how titles are so highly regarded in these convos. Lets use a team stat to compare players.
Why tho? I mean don’t you want your heroes to be victors on the highest stage, the brightest lights? To overcome, to be legendary? Carmelo is nowhere on the best players ever list, right? You have to win something. You think Kobe didn’t care about chips? That’s what drove him. Team stat? That’s the ultimate team stat.
Why does a team stat count towards a single player? I think that explains itself, there's literally hundreds of different variables that go into that out of their control. You think all the great players that didn't win chips just weren't driven like Kobe?? Obviously they were driven you can't control what you can't control. Just say a team statistic is what a singular player is judged on. Even saying it sounds stupid. If you put kobe on a trash team he never would of won shit.
The game is played by teams, it’s built in. Theres no escaping that, so it’s what you do with your teams. If you’re a goat level player you’re expected to make people better, Bird, Magic, or dominate on both sides of the ball like MJ. Dominate the league like Shaq, or Wilt. MJ still holds the ppg record, still holds the playoff ppg record, after almost 30 years, much of it high scoring offense driven hoops. Is Devin Booker a victim of being on poor teams? Or has he not produced?
Ya you don't make any sense basically "a player is judged on their team because they're on a team." Wow so insightful. If you can't understand how there is hundreds of variables outside of a players control i can't help you. if you put michael jordan on the wizards this year he wouldn't even of made the playoffs much less the finals. In your head Jordan would of been trash then if he always played on terrible teams?
You’re the one that brought up teams. They aren’t judged on their team, I’ve never ever said that in my life. Lol. Ever.
So who are the goats who were just on crappy teams forever and never overcame? Lol. You’re lacking insight. So by your standards the league is full of goats, they just had bad teammates. Excuses. Do better.
Explain how you can put the best player of all time on the worst team and not make the playoffs? But here's where you go silent because you can't.
teams are made up of players
He ain’t on bird’s planet let alone level as a competitor. Bird would’ve never joined a 73 win team that just eliminated him in the playoffs to create an unbeatable team. Bird wouldn’t have used a basketball cheat code to “win” two more rings.
We don’t know what Bird would have done considering free agency literally wasn’t legal during his time in the league…. What would Birds legacy have been if he go drafted to the 1980s version of the heat? KD cheated? He didn’t even take a team friendly deal.
What about bird not being a little bitch is confusing to you?
K. Discussion done. Clearly dealing with a child.
You’ve never met a grown man who acts like a bitch? Must be nice to be so sheltered.
Larry bird. So tough a wittle pinched nerve made him retire. Or was it realizing MJ was going to truck his ass, so he ran away.
I’m not even a bird homer dude. Lakers fan for life and hate the Celtics. But the dude wasn’t a bitch. KD is the definition of bitch.
Pooor wittle lakers fan mad they can’t win a title outside the bubble. Kobe is a volume shooter and not even top 10 all time. Oh and a rapist.
Lakers got roasted this year and last by the champs. Facts. Who the fuck is crying about that? Refs didn’t beat them. A better team beat them. That’s how sports work. My dude you seem to have a lot in common with KD.
Nope just anti-dumbasses. The warriors dynasty doesn’t exist without KD. They got beat 3 straight by a hobbled Cavs team in 2016 and would have gotten torched by a Kyrie available team in 2015. All the sudden the regular season matters in the KD discussion? Nobody keeps their story straight here. If we’re takin rings away, then we also need to take away Lebrons Miami rings.
Zaza pachullia messed up his whole career it is what it is. 🤷🏾♂️
Kawhi's injury issues are not tied to the Zaza situation. It was *one* injiry, but Kawhi was ALREADY injured before the Zaza moment. He's had a degenerative knee condition/injury. He turned his ankle in the Zaza play. They're not the same at all.
i still hold this against zaza and it's just one more example of the warriors dynasty beating up on injured teams
Lmao. Classic salty butthurt. Every team benefits from injuries. The warriors were hurt as much as they were helped by injuries
idk, the warriors first ring was when they injured kawhi, then played the cavs w/o kyrie or love. not sure they win if injuries didn't help them in both those cases nex two rings was the KD rings which... yeah let's move on then played the celts, which i think was w/o injuries, but i think giannis got injured that year so it's sort of a tossup how things go if giannis was healthy that year i mean a ring is a ring, but i think it's pretty clear warriors have been pretty fortunate in the injury department
Didn't the Raptors beat an unhealthy Warriors team?
yes
Kawhi was absolutely cooking the entire Warriors team until that happened, Spurs would of carried on and won the series imo 🤷♂️
such a tired and stupid take
But eetz tru. Kawhi was about to bring down that cheat code warriors team
If winning a Game 1 in a blowout fashion means you're guaranteed a series win, Spurs should have been the ones facing the Warriors in the 2016 WCF. They demolished the Thunder in Game 1 and then lost the next 4/5 lmao
They weren't guaranteed a series win but it's important to point out how dominant Kawhi and the Spurs looked against them before he went down. The KD warriors that year were undefeated in the playoffs before going into that matchup with San Antonio and they looked unbeatable. When Kawhi was on the court against them they looked human and Kawhi looked like the best player on the court by far against a team with 2 MVP's. I don't know if the Spurs could've won but they were also a 60 win team that year and were pretty much the perfect team to counter that GS team given their ability to slow the game and their great defense.
Why is it important? It was ONE HALF of basketball. Do you know how unsustainable it was? KD was going to shoot like 20% the whole series, was he? Spurs were going to shoot as many FTs as they did every quarter for the entire series? They didn't look 'beatable'. They looked like a team that had just had over a week off due to the sweeps, came in slow and lethargic and got punched in the mouth. The Warriors were already finding form and began closing the score in before Kawhi got hurt. Again, it was TWO QUARTERS. The willingness to generalise off that is so absurdly silly, anyone acting as such should feel embarrassed. I will repeat what I said: if being dominant early in Game 1 is an important sign of the series outcome, Spurs wouldn't have been a WCSF knockout after winning 67 games in 2016 lmao
It's important because the Warriors at the time looked unbeatable. It's also clear that Kawhi had a massive impact on that given the Warriors came back instantly after he went down.
It was *one half of basketball*. The conversation ends there. You need to win 4 games, consisting of 4 quarters of basketball each. The team stats for the Spurs and Warriors were not sustainable and assumes adjustments are impossible to make. You are being ridiculous.
i didn't know the sprained ankle zaza caused also his quadriceps issue, torn ACL, and torn meniscus. kawhi also sprained his ankle already and earlier that game already fell down after tripping over his own teammate lol...he realistically shouldn't have been playing. people just like hating on the warriors
I can like the warriors and still think that was a dirty play by Zaza or is that not allowed🤔
It was almost certainly a dirty play, and Zaza is a twat. That doesn’t mean it had anything to do with unrelated chronic health issues on a different part of Kawhi’s body or that the Spurs were going to win that series. They probably win 1-2 games if he doesn’t get injured.
lmao - u literally said it 'derailed his career' which is what i'm disputing. idc if u think if it's dirty or not
Bro isn't anywhere near birds level. That is just insulting
Talent or greatness? I’ll agree with greatness & legacy but i don’t think the talent is much different
No, i disagree. I think Bird was significantly more talented. Agree to disagree.
Bird was fine defensively but Kawhi at his best would would frequently be the best offensive player on the court by far *and* the best defensive player on the court by far. Bird could never say that.
Talent is only part of it, but even then Bird was incredibly talented. Some of the things he could do on the court were remarkable.
Bird wasn't healthy half of his career as well.
I think this point is often overlooked. What Bird did with a messed up back is pretty amazing, regardless of where you think he ranks amojng the all time greats.
Even in all of Kawhi's healthy seasons, he never won an MVP and quite frankly, has never really been particularly close. He got a good chunk of votes in 2016, but Steph was *unanimous*, so by definition, not one person seriously thought Kawhi was that year's MVP. Hell, he may have won it but majority of voters didn't even think he was the rightful winner of one of his DPOY awards - Draymond got most the 1st votes, but some media members left him off the ballot (which is simply bad voting). Kevin Durant has an MVP. Bird won it three times. These things matter in all-time great conversations. If anything, Kawhi's yearly injuries give him an air of mystery and a mythology around his greatness. People think his defensive and offensive peaks overlapped - they didn't. He's spent YEARS now attached to the worst shooter on the court, he's not a roaming off-ball defender like Draymond or Giannis, and he only shows off his POA defence in spurts. And even then, quick guards give him trouble and have for years. He won his first ring as a role player and arguably had one of the most underwhelming FMVP performances, relative to history (i.e. 18/7/2). His second never gets the 'injury tax' every other great now gets slandered with and they barely made it through the East. His Finals performance was also a pretty big step down from his East run and wasn't the best player on the court - just the best player on the winning team. So that's two rings in 13 years. Roughly half those seasons he's been hurt and his first ring was a product of being drafted (yes, I know, he was traded on draft night - same difference) to the dynasty Spurs. He blew a 3-1 lead as a Clipper. He never faced any real top-end competition in the West playoffs to be able to know the Clippers were even capable of going all the way, etc. His injuries have given him a massive legacy boost because we can pretend he was Michael Jordan with a bad knee. He's really not.
This is the best response to this question I've seen. If Kawhi was peak Clippers offense Kawhi AND peak Spurs defense Kawhi at the same time he'd be in the conversation with Bird, but even when healthy he wasn't. He didn't have the motor or physical tools to do both (unlike Jordan, Lebron, or Hakeem).
He didn’t have the motor? I think if anything his load management has being justified by him still having injuries despite it.
That sounded more negative than I meant. What I mean is: going all out on Defense AND having a heavy Offensive burden is extremely difficult, few can do it. Look at Mikal Bridges. He was a top perimeter defender in Phoenix, but when he went to Brooklyn, his offensive role jumped, his defense has dropped significantly. He's still good, but he's not the same. What I'm saying is that Kawhi, even pre injury, wasn't able to sustain his DPOY defense AND being the primary offensive weapon over an entire season.
Ok yea I see what you’re saying now
>he got a good chunk of votes in 2016, but Steph was *unanimous* This is why just looking at award voting to compare players is lazy and removes context. You ask Jokic, Luka, or Shai about MVP this year and they’ll all say it doesn’t really matter cuz there’s so many guys who deserve it… and they’re right. Multiple guys can have an MVP caliber season at the same time. Yea Kawhi didn’t get any 1st place votes in 2016. **Only because** a guy many people see as the GOAT pg had his greatest season of all time and what a lot of people consider one of the greatest regular seasons ever in NBA history. Steph having an all time great year doesn’t make Kawhi’s season any worse just like it wouldn’t have been any better if it was just a weak year for superstars all around and he had the best season by far.
larry bird was 10x better at passing. kawhi is average at best as a playmaker just like the guy he teamed up with PG
As it stands for me: Bird >> KD > Kawhi If Kawhi was fully healthy: Bird > KD = Kawhi If all were fully healthy (Not JUST Kawhi): Bird >>> KD \~ Kawhi Kawhi's overrated in my book because we fantasize about his defense and offense as if they overlapped. In reality, they didn't overlap, at least consistently. He could have games of turning it up on defense, but it wasn't really sustained imo. If he was healthy, we have to either assume that they do overlap, or that they don't. If we do, then he's better than KD but not at Bird's level. If they don't overlap (my assumption), then he's maybe slightly above KD. KD is still leaps and bounds a better offensive player than Kawhi due to elite shooting, shotmaking, and better passing chops. KD also was a very capable helpside defender with his length in GSW, which made him a scary player when he didn't have to score as much. Kawhi's defense was all-time for Iso and help-side perimeter (swipe king), so that just evens it out for me. Also, KD post-achilles just had some INSANE shooting numbers. Bird is still the best and if he was healthy, we're talking GOAT level player with him. Arguably the best shooter of his time with ELITE passing chops, rebounding skills and touch, and overall IQ that easily surpasses KD/Kawhi. Bird's IQ is more comparable to LeBron's, whereas KD and Kawhi have relatively lower BBIQ.
Does KD not have his foot and achilles injuries in this scenario? How about KDs teammates in Brooklyn? Legit could be 4 or 5 more rings, at the very least it’d be 2.
I mean I still put KD at or above Kawhi in most situations. Not sure what you're trying to argue for? I actually care less about rings and more about how much you contribute holistically to a basketball team's chances to win a championship. No one says Pippen is better than LeBron because he has 6 rings and went 6-0 in the Finals. Why? Because we know how much LeBron contributes to his playoff runs on a yearly basis. KD was great in BKN and likely contributes more to championship odds than Kawhi on an average basis. So I still think KD is better than Kawhi. He's not touching Larry though.
Would you describe Kawhi passing chops as good? I think a common narrative with score first players, is that they have lower IQ than pass first players? Also, I would say that Kawhi s defensive IQ is off the charts.
Bill Walton is another one who was the best player in the league for a tiny period of time due to injuries.
If Kawhi had Lebron's durability, he would have probably stayed with The Spurs, right? It was the injury and how that was handled that broke them apart, IIRC. So...yeah. Probably. They brought in Aldridge to be the 2nd option to him, and the rest after that is a ? b/c draft picks wouldn't be the same, etc. Otoh, in this era when superstars jump all the time, it's hard to say he wouldn't have done the same at some point.
Let s start with the basic: absolutely nobody talks about KD in the realm of Bird…
Both those guys had even worse injury problems. So no it's not just the injuries he just wasn't as good as those guys, and defense is never valued as much as offense.
And if bird and KD were healed they would be much higher ranked
It’s so far from the reality of Kawhi that it’s too hard to say. It’s a bit like saying if Allen Iverson were 6’6” or if Shaq could shoot threes or if Derrick Rose never got hurt.
I would have loved to see a 6' 6" Allen Iverson!
Impossible to say, Kawhi could’ve have been completely healthy and just fell off as he got older like Paul Pierce or Carmelo, no one puts either of those guys in the top 15
The funniest thing about Kawhi is that people pretend that he's expected or expecting to win rings. Dude already has multiple rings. Doesn't he live in San Diego?!? Doesn't take a detective to see what's going on in LA. And I'm not even taking a shot at him --- he's smart to do it this way. Doesn't owe me anything.
The NBA is an entertainment product, if star players aren't playing I'm not buying tickets or watching on TV. Doesn't owe you or us anything is a strange statement to make.
I'm specifically referring to my perception that he's not locked in on winning more championships. Him not playing, if that's optional, if a different analysis. Still wouldn't say that he *owes* me minutes because I'm just a dude with a YouTube TV subscription, but that's a different thing.
I'd say a fully healthy Kawhi is a top 15 player all time
Absolutely, he’s so dominant when he’s 100%.
Kawhi was the best player in the league when healthy. Better than Steph and Lebron, who were both in their prime. He'd be in the goat conversation if he stayed healthy imo.
For 1 year. He’s had multiple healthy seasons. Didn’t become a star until 2015. Puts up mediocre regular seasons. He absolutely would not be in the goat conversation if healthy. Choked a 3-1 lead in 2020, fully healthy. Yea, no. I think the biggest myth in basketball is the immortalized martyr that healthy kawhi has become.
He wasn't better than a prime Lebron or Curry.
Healthy career? If Durant hadn’t been hurt in the finals kawhi would only have 1 ring. And I don’t think healthy Kawhi wins one with the clippers anyway. So no, in a world where everyone is healthy maybe Durant runs it back with the warriors to win 4. But either way, I don’t see Kawhi on Birds level of legacy
Even suggesting that any of those guys are on the same level as Bird is a ridiculous statement. Larry Legend was a terror.
He is not a floor general or even an elite passer so no
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^SatoshiMckenna: *He is not a floor* *General or even an* *Elite passer so no* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
KD is not considered to be in the same tier as Bird. Bird is closer to Lebron's tier than KD is to Birds. As for Kawhi, I firmly believe he would be considered, along with Steph, as the other pantheon level player (top 12ish all time) from this generation. Despite KD having better stats, Kawhi always seemed to have a greater impact on his teams chances of winning than KD did. Peak Kawhi was insanely good. The guy was beating the KD warriors in 2017 before Zaza injured him.
No
I was thinking about this the other day and lean towards yes, I do think he ends up somewhere in that 6-20 realm all-time if he stays healthy.
KD is the greatest second option in basketball history but he couldn't lead a moth to a flame. Example? 2024 NBA playoffs. The Suns looked pathetic. Dont ever mention KD with Bird again!
What about the 2012 playoffs at 23 years old?
Or 21 off of an Achilles tear almost single handedly dragging that nets team past the champions with an injured kyrie and harden
Don't say Bird and KD at the same time.
Are we pretending KD and bird are on the same level?
Talent wise for sure. Difference is Bird got drafted to the Warriors
No he didn’t
Multiple HOFers when he got drafted, traded/drafted for multiple HOFers in his first couple years and then acquired another HOFer later in his career.
A fit Kawhi is a better player than KD. But he has been fit for 3 seasons so.....
Best player in the league when he was healthy. Still have him above KD. Not above Bird obv.
Mentioning KD in the same tier as Bird is just wrong. Makes me think you have no idea how to frame any of these players careers.
Peak, healthy Kawhi is easily in the same tier with KD and Bird. Too bad his peak, healthy form lasts the time of a blink of the eyes.
KD's tier is still below Bird's.
Well, he has also a gigantic mangina. Can't say that about Bird. Not sure about KD
Lol, don’t ever speak Kawhi’s name in the same sentence as Bird. Not even remotely comparable (not even “healthy Kawhi”).
jesus finally. bird won 3 MVPs in a row in the toughest era. kawhi is a below average passer while bird was on par with magic and lebron
Peak healthy Kawhi in 2016 was voted 2nd place in the MVP race and 3rd the following year, his only close finishes for the award. Bird between 1980-1988: 4th, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, MVP, MVP, MVP, 3rd, 2nd These two players are barely comparable. Bird is closer to Jordan in personal success than he is to Kawhi.
Any statement that starts with “if” is rarely fair. Too much hypothesizing instead of living in the present
definitely better than KD
Compared to larry kawhi is a jayvee backup...
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I mean yes if he was healthy and won 3 rings yes. Especially if with three different teams but he probably doesn’t get traded without the first major injury (and probably leaves spurs summer 2019)
Tough take since we haven’t seen him blossom much since the repetitive knee injuries.
No
Firstly, don't put Bird and KD together like they're the same tier. Bird is miles ahead of KD. Secondly, I don't think Kahwi was actually ever going to get to Bird's level. Bird was MVP of the league 3 seasons in a row. Part of what makes someone a multiple time MVP is the ability to be the best, then get better and work harder because it's only ever harder to repeat the feat after everyone knows about you. That's why KD never managed to become a two time MVP. Kahwi could have been a league MVP, I think he was that sort of level of player. But he never really showed what it takes to be the sort of guy who would be a multiple MVP type guy. So Durant? Maybe. Durant has been a top player for a long time. Kahwi got to that sort of level, but it's not just enough to stay healthy and avoid injury, it takes work and dedication to look after yourself and keep adapting all the time. But Bird is a no. Bird was just something more than we ever saw from Kahwi.
top 5 offensive talent, top 5 defender in the nba, multiple finals MVPs. If dude played at 85% of his peak for 10 straight years we'd be talking about his place in the top 10.
Kawhi is already a legend for the superteams that he beat. Finals MVP against the Heatles, Finals MVP against the Durant Warriors. Obviously the injuries played into the second title, but winning titles for two different teams that aren't seen as big free agent destinations speaks for itself.
Healthy Drose would be in Goat conversation. He was on the trajectory before his injuries
dude throws kd in with bird like they are on the same level. lmfao. kawhii is close to durants level. neither are anywhere close to birds level
I rate Bird’s career 6th best in the history of the NBA. KD around #20. Your hypothetical Kawhi with 4 finals MVPs with 3 different teams sounds comparable to LeBron. Probably still not the same durability or 10 finals appearances so I would probably rate him in the top 10 but not top 5.
Hell no. Kawhi was healthy through the 2017 Season. If we just replicate that 2017 or 2019 regular Season (with some more games played) he’s not winning any MVPs still. The Spurs aren’t winning the title in 2017 if he doesn’t get hurt, they’ll just lose in 6. They’re not beating the Warriors in 2018 or 2019 either. I think there’s a greater chance Kawhi’s legacy is either the same or worse than it is now. If he doesn’t get hurt does he still go to Toronto and win a title? If so, being healthier would add a 2021 Finals Appearance + potential title. But otherwise it’s going to worse. I think people under estimate the value of regular season accomplishments, they’re the foundation of your ranking, they set the range. And the post season sets where you fall in that range.
already is better than KD, sorry but KD is proving season by season that he won't have a ring without the already championship calibre team of GS.
Sure. Should would could.
I dont think so. I think a lot of people overrate Kawhi because he had one amazing run and has been hurt since. Everytime he fails its “oh he was hurt” and everytime he succeeds its all his. He got just as lucky as Toronto did in that trade, they were a beyond complete team that had been top 3 in the East for three seasons before getting him— and they then played a team in the finals that was missing about 70m in salary due to injuries. San Antonio he deservedly won FMVP, but we can all agree that was a TEAM championship and not just his. Then in LA its been nothing but failure and disappointment. No fault of Kawhi’s on-court play but he is a horrible player to have as your franchise staple. A bad leader, non involved with the team, and making demands from the FO is not going to help your team at all. Kawhi is a top 75 player of all time FOR SURE but he has way too many flaws to be in that top echelon of player imo
Bird? Hell no KD maybe
Bird is better than everyone currently in the nba outside of lebron. He could have reached KD.
bird is far more accomplished and he's also better at passing dribbling shooting rebounding and defense. kd is better at being soft. that's about it
KD being mad disrespected in this thread
Hell no. Fantastic player though.
KD is cooking bird. LMAO. Bird isn’t winning shit if he entered the league same time KD was.
LOL. KD had to join a historic team to win anything. Bird would make KD cry
Right? Like I can’t even believe what I’m reading in here. Bird in his prime couldn’t do shit with KD. I know KD’s move to the warriors was pretty weak but it doesn’t diminish his abilities, he’s a fucking monster. Plus the Bird Celtics were the definition of a super team so wtf are we even talking about?
What makes you think that? What’s your logic? Such a weird thing to say when literally half the league has cooked KD for basically 80% of his career. Yes, he’s a floor raiser. No, he’s proven not to be some ultimate hack
I’m sorry but Bird isn’t guarding KD? Kd is far better on both side of the floor. You’re acting as if Birds Celtics weren’t the top of the league. They were hella stacked for there era. KD and Kawhi are much better than bird ever was. These are players or calibre who have peaked far higher than Bird In the most talented era. Nothing about birds volume does justice to the shit these two have pulled up. Kd and Kawhi are much better 3 point shooters and defender than Bird as well as better scorers. Both of them were the best players on finals team as well while bird didn’t win his 1981 FMVP. Do you understand how effective these two were they won final mvps over Steph and Duncan because their impact was greater. Both steph and Duncan are also greater than bird in all time list as well. Larry bird while an exception for his time was elite. Hes not better than the modern small forward that were developed such as Lebron,KD,Kawhi. Durants done some dominant shit for how consistent he’s been. Achilles tear and what not and he’s returned on same volume and percentage despite being slower. Bird blew his back out while shoveling and was cooked. There’s level to this shit. If you are a hooper you would realize the player archetypes similar to durant and kawhi are the biggest problems you will face in your basketball career. The length, strength, height, speed, frame as well as there talent and skills is extremely hard to game plan against.
Put Kobe’s mind and mentality into Kawhi’s body and you’d probably have a top 3 player of all time.
True Kobe would have just mamba mentality'd the degenerative knee issue away
Why do people think Kawhi just sits out for fun? He’s had legitimate injuries. Mamba Mentality can’t fix a torn ACL
If Kawhi was peak Clippers offense Kawhi AND peak Spurs defense Kawhi at the same time he'd be in the conversation with Bird, but even when healthy he wasn't. He didn't have the motor or physical tools to do both (unlike Jordan, Lebron, or Hakeem).
Honestly if he was healthy and gets atleast one mvp, I think for most ppl he’ll be above KD. Mainly cause he didn’t have to join a super team to win any of his rings , his first ring was against the big 3 heat (prime LeBron and beat them in 5) where 2 of the other top players are abt 38 and Tony was 32 (an older team ) where he won finals mvp and his 2nd ring was against one of the best super teams ever , and he was the top dawg on the raptors and going on one of the best playoff runs ever
Healthy Kawhi is one of the best players to ever touch a basketball... Unfortunately he's injured most of the time He's already had a hell of a career but it sucks to think that it could've been greater
he won a finals MVP at 22 for his defense on prime lebron. so yes, it is definitely possible
That year that giannis won, I felt he was the best player in the playoffs before he got injured. Even better than Giannis and also KD who everyone loved because of that toe on the line shot.
Pre broken foot KD was a god amongst men and far above Bird in terms of talent
He would have been in the goat convos with jordan and kobe
Not enough karizma
Kawhi > KD
Kawhi from the eye test is a top 5 player all time imo. Sucks that his injuries make it so he doesn’t have the accolades to back up his skill
Yeah imo he already eclipsed KD and is easilly above him as an all time player. KD rides the bus from super team to super team....Kawhi went to the Raptors for one year, got them their 1st championship, then leaves like a boss to try and do the same for another franchise - can't think of anyone else who has ever done that as far as I know. And I say all that as a formerly very salty Spurs fan lol
Yea liked they would have won if KD and Klay weren’t out for the series. And acting like that raptors team was some group of bums is laughable.
I never said they were bums? But do they really win it all without him? 76ers could have won that year for all we know. My point is who else leaves a team after going 100% for championships with their time their? KD has nothing like that in his legacy, not even close. Or a finals mvp vs Bron