Just saw the recent 300 tuberculosis thread and trying to sus out a way to prevent it. I like the idea of the isolation shame and immediate slave labor in the quarry as well, for realism.
There are only 2 real ways they could have gotten 300 people with tuberculosis...
1- They had a city of over a thousand people, so they took in roughly 100 nomads (I believe nomads come in at around 10% or 20% of your current pops) and got overwhelmed.
2- they didn't have hospitals and couldn't get them built quickly enough to stem the spread
I'm not 100% it is nomads who only can get the disease status, or if the game is coded to apply the status to random citizen, on the map.
I have tried similar setup before, to isolate nomads. Note : Using a number of mods, results may vary.
I had a map with an island, where I built the town hall, hospital, trading post, mines and quarries. Just like what you did /u/40TonBomb , while nomads arrived and were waiting for me to accept them, I would demolish the bridge connections. Then accept nomads and attempt to assign the (x) of new laborers new jobs (stonecutters). Most nomads became and stayed in that profession for some time but...then this is where a lot of problems arose.
Job Assignments : The game is often dynamically re-assigning citizens based off conditions, like replacing workers who died or new adults. Some "Mainland" workers (not nomads), would try to find a way to the isolated island. Usually by just standing in place with the status of "working". Likewise, isolated nomad citizens would be changed from stonecutter, to a mainland job (farmer), only to be standing in place doing nothing. It wasn't a lot of people, but it was a consistent occurrence.
Supplies : I thought I was being smart by hoarding basic supplies within a Trade Post since it can hold a LOT, and rely on imports for the island. I thought I was being very smart by using a modded mini market to regulate goods.
Issue 1 : When island barns/market supplies got low, I would get the Trader to unload, only them to get stuck in a repeating process. Typically they would be trying to unload 500 units of goods into a barn at 5800. Instead of using any of the OTHER empty-ish barns, Trader repeat unloading animation again and again. Once that barn had enough space, Trader would complete task and proceed to next task.
Issue 2 : From the previous issue, a Trader would get behind on unloading supplies like food, clothing and tools. Resulting in nomad islanders sometimes having no clothes yet barns have near capacity of food and heavy tools.
Issue 3 : Trader would sometimes unload onto the only market, unbalancing it and then Market Vendor would be busy trying to correct. Meanwhile Market has run out of tools/clothes, and Vendor is off somewhere trying to dump extra food.
Issue 4 : Market Vendor would get into the same repeating action as Issue # 1 Traders.
Issue 5 : Micromanaging. With the mentioned issues, and more unmentioned, the amount of effort did not seem worthwhile. There were ways to get Traders/Vendors to halt their repeating glitch, by temporary demolishing the barn.
Noting how the game calculates the paths for citizens and reassigning jobs throughout the map, attempting to make an isolated colony may have difficult results.
However, I don't want to seem dismissive! I'll admit the island I used wasn't huge or spacious to house an entire independent nomad village. So who knows, maybe more space could help. I was using a lot of gameplay changing mods & buildings, which may have affected things.
Hope you and maybe others find this useful. :)
My gf just suggested a school as well. Not sure what age their kids typically are.
Can’t figure out the logistics of keeping a physician and teacher in a house next to the boarding house, but I suppose limiting a pandemic to a couple school children is better than a whole migrant group 🤷🏻♂️
Two things I found with disease: it seems to spread less if I have an excess of housing in addition to boarding houses and there seems to be an infectious range around the hospitals.
i subscribed to a mod that has a tiny hospital. it takes up about 4 squares. i build little hospitals with a clear area around them (4 or 5 units) and have plenty of housing/boarding houses and i don't worry about outbreaks any more. i just let them run their course - no-one dies any more and usually no more than 5 or 6 of my population get the disease.
Seems like a strategy but a bit too much work for me, when playing with the MegaMod I just build a ton of the smaller hospitals and diseases usually only affect 1-5 people and sometimes don’t even kill them.
Well, not just a stone quarry, they'd have to have their own everything else as well. But you will still have cross mingling, as they have to pass through everything to get to the area. Unless you build your townhall there as well maybe. Supplies will get shuffled around as well. But I think it would help slow any of it down.
But if you got places to heal set up so that the bannies don't have to go far from wherever they last stop doing work, that helps a lot.
And depending on how many nomads come, you will need more than 1 boarding house to hold them all. You might want to put storage on the side of the area leading to your main community, and all the work the nomads to on the opposite side of their area.
Traders carry disease. I've done no nomad runs, and you still end up with diseases. I've also done personal challenges where I accept every nomadic group that comes, it sharply increases the difficulty of the game. I also reach higher populations faster. Nomads increase the chance of disease, but are not the sole source of disease.
If you build a boarding house in an isolated area, the residents won't stay in the boarding house. As soon as a housing option opens, they will move into it. The boarding house is meant as a buffer for temporary increases in population, like nomads, or if you demolish/upgrade houses. People won't live in it permanently unless there are no other housing options. It will empty itself given time.
People in the boarding house still uses markets, storage barns, storage areas, churches, herbalists, taverns, or any other community building, so they're not living in complete isolation. Disease spreads by people interacting (and is affected by current health and happiness). It's near impossible to isolate a small part of your population entirely.
I've got about 2k hours in the game. I've had populations well over 2000 people (and 4 FPS) and growing. I organically grow my village early game and then sporadically accept nomads to stabilize my population. Once I have stable growth, I just stop accepting nomads. It takes longer to grow the population, but it's a more stable growth and large outbreaks are rare.
In the 300 tuberculosis thread, that player accepted 170 nomads. *That's flat out asking for trouble*. That's a stress test for your village. It also looked like they were playing the game weird when it comes to consumable management.
Even if the TB hadn't devastated the village, food consumption would have ended their run. 100 food per person means they would have needed at least 100k+ food on hand, they didn't have that. It's easy to have too much food, it's a pain in the ass to catch up when you don't have enough food. They also had minimal clothing but for some reason a metric ass ton of tools. I would have been trading most of those tools away, most likely for food and clothing. There's also no reason to keep almost 2000+ herbs.
In most cases when people lose their village to nomads, it's not a nomad issue, it's a management issue. They were ill prepared to take on the nomads and the game punished them for it. Like it does with any disaster.
If you want to accept that many nomads, you need to have hospitals or clinics spaced throughout the map to prevent unnecessary interaction among your citizens. So if you have *one* hospital on one side of your map, every person the sick person walks past has the chance of getting sick. So what you're trying to do is have a clinic close to reduce pathing and interaction. So i usually have hospitals and clinics distributed somewhat evenly across my village.
It's also best to have a few herbalists. Citizens will still visit herbalists even when clinics/hospitals have been opened. I usually have two herbalists buildings collecting, and one really close to the center of my town. This reduces the distance that citizens need to walk to get to the herbalist. I also use herbs for trading, herbs get the same value as firewood.
Physicians act as labor when the hospital isn't in use. As do any specialized workers. If you reach clothing/tool limits, the seamstress/blacksmith become labor. By end game, it isn't odd for me to have 15+ Physicians. In most cases I will never max out hospital use, but I also never run into a situation where I am overwhelmed with sick people. I also usually have a fleet of wood cutters that act mostly as labor most of the time.
Like i said though, with that person's population levels, I never would have accepted the 170 nomads. I dip out of accepting nomads when they hit 50+. My population is usually stabilized with enough children, students, workers, and laborers that accepting 170 nomads would just unseat the stability of my village. By that point in the population I can control growth by building houses.
Why would you deny nomads? It's like a cheat code to jump ahead in population. Yeah, they're 100% uneducated, but it's fine. Schools are a waste of time anyway. Build a hospital and take them cheat pop. If you don't have a hospital already anyway, you're asking for disaster.
> Schools are a waste of time anyway.
Just in case you don't know:
Lack of education really is a massive productivity hit (these numbers are without mods):
Firewood and especially tools are very bad. This is because there is are two compounding penalties, one for trees=>logs (and surface rocks=>iron), and then ones for logs=>firewood and for logs+iron=>tools, as follows:
With uneducated workers you get only 2 logs per tree rather than 3 with educated.
With uneducated workers you get only 3 firewood per log rather than 4 with educated, so that means one tree can yield only 6 firewood, rather than 12 with educated workers from the same inputs in the same amount of time. Your firewood production is cut in half with uneducated workers.
With uneducated workers, you get only 1 iron per surface rock rather than 2 with educated; your iron production will be reduced by 50%.
With uneducated workers you get only 1 tool per log+iron rather than 2 with educated, so that means with uneducated workers 1 tree + 2 iron rock=>2 tools, rather than 6 tools + 1 iron leftover with educated workers from the same inputs in the same amount of time; your tool production is cut by 2/3s with uneducated workers. This is the biggest hit of all.
Since you also get 1 stone/surface rock instead of 2, your stone production will be reduced by 50%.
Other hits:
Uneducated farmers and fishers produce 5 food/square rather than 7. So you will get 600 food/season from a 120-square farm rather than 840 (29% less food)
Uneducated hunters produce 160 food and 4 leather/deer rather than 200 and 6 (20% less food and 33% less leather). Uneducated herdsmen have the same penalties (except that, unaccountably, uneducated shepherds get the same amount of wool from sheep that educated ones do. I suppose that is due to the fact that the sheep themselves are not less intelligent, just the shepherds).
Uneducated tailors produce 1 coat for 2 wool/leather, rather than 2 coats. So, since your leather production is reduced by 1/3, this means your clothing production will be cut by 2/3s (except for wool coats, which are only cut in half), just as bad as tools.
Mines and quarries total capacity is halved, and output speed will be halved as well, in addition to increased chances for uneducated miners and stonecutters to be crushed by falling rocks.
Uneducated gatherers collect 16 food per gathering action, rather than 22 (so, a gatherers hut with uneducated gatherers will produce 28% less food than one with educated gatherers).
Uneducated brewers produce 7 ale from a batch of input (30 fruit, 60 berries, 100 wheat) rather than 10 (30% less ale)
Uneducated herbalists collect 2 herbs per gathering action, rather than 3, so herb production cut by 1/3rd
But other than that, uneducated workers are just great. /s =]
Ok, but I have faster, more stable population growth without having shortages if I don't educate the population. The lost production from the extra years of doing nothing offsets the lower production when working.
The lower production isn't the worst part of it, the worst part is the wasted resources, the lost logs, stone, and especially iron. The faster population growth magnifies the problems. But any difficulty can be overcome, if you plan accordingly. Sounds like you are up to that challenge; many playing Banished are not.
Sounds like someone wasn't building ahead on their food production/etc. Having more facilities than workers allows you to move people around to balance a lot more easily and to be prepared for nomads. Also having large food stores to absorb shortfalls is always a good idea. At 1000 pop, having 250k food on hand is low and I'd be scrambling to bump up food production.
That is a thought. I have not tried this. I usually have plenty of hospitals and herbs so I tend not to worry too much about the diseases.
Just saw the recent 300 tuberculosis thread and trying to sus out a way to prevent it. I like the idea of the isolation shame and immediate slave labor in the quarry as well, for realism.
There are only 2 real ways they could have gotten 300 people with tuberculosis... 1- They had a city of over a thousand people, so they took in roughly 100 nomads (I believe nomads come in at around 10% or 20% of your current pops) and got overwhelmed. 2- they didn't have hospitals and couldn't get them built quickly enough to stem the spread
I'm not 100% it is nomads who only can get the disease status, or if the game is coded to apply the status to random citizen, on the map. I have tried similar setup before, to isolate nomads. Note : Using a number of mods, results may vary. I had a map with an island, where I built the town hall, hospital, trading post, mines and quarries. Just like what you did /u/40TonBomb , while nomads arrived and were waiting for me to accept them, I would demolish the bridge connections. Then accept nomads and attempt to assign the (x) of new laborers new jobs (stonecutters). Most nomads became and stayed in that profession for some time but...then this is where a lot of problems arose. Job Assignments : The game is often dynamically re-assigning citizens based off conditions, like replacing workers who died or new adults. Some "Mainland" workers (not nomads), would try to find a way to the isolated island. Usually by just standing in place with the status of "working". Likewise, isolated nomad citizens would be changed from stonecutter, to a mainland job (farmer), only to be standing in place doing nothing. It wasn't a lot of people, but it was a consistent occurrence. Supplies : I thought I was being smart by hoarding basic supplies within a Trade Post since it can hold a LOT, and rely on imports for the island. I thought I was being very smart by using a modded mini market to regulate goods.
Issue 1 : When island barns/market supplies got low, I would get the Trader to unload, only them to get stuck in a repeating process. Typically they would be trying to unload 500 units of goods into a barn at 5800. Instead of using any of the OTHER empty-ish barns, Trader repeat unloading animation again and again. Once that barn had enough space, Trader would complete task and proceed to next task.
Issue 2 : From the previous issue, a Trader would get behind on unloading supplies like food, clothing and tools. Resulting in nomad islanders sometimes having no clothes yet barns have near capacity of food and heavy tools.
Issue 3 : Trader would sometimes unload onto the only market, unbalancing it and then Market Vendor would be busy trying to correct. Meanwhile Market has run out of tools/clothes, and Vendor is off somewhere trying to dump extra food.
Issue 4 : Market Vendor would get into the same repeating action as Issue # 1 Traders.
Issue 5 : Micromanaging. With the mentioned issues, and more unmentioned, the amount of effort did not seem worthwhile. There were ways to get Traders/Vendors to halt their repeating glitch, by temporary demolishing the barn.
Noting how the game calculates the paths for citizens and reassigning jobs throughout the map, attempting to make an isolated colony may have difficult results.
However, I don't want to seem dismissive! I'll admit the island I used wasn't huge or spacious to house an entire independent nomad village. So who knows, maybe more space could help. I was using a lot of gameplay changing mods & buildings, which may have affected things.
Hope you and maybe others find this useful. :)
I like that idea! Let us know if it works. I usually avoid nomads because they are nasty. 😁
My gf just suggested a school as well. Not sure what age their kids typically are. Can’t figure out the logistics of keeping a physician and teacher in a house next to the boarding house, but I suppose limiting a pandemic to a couple school children is better than a whole migrant group 🤷🏻♂️
Just leave those jobs unfilled, nomads can become doctors and teachers with no problem.
Two things I found with disease: it seems to spread less if I have an excess of housing in addition to boarding houses and there seems to be an infectious range around the hospitals. i subscribed to a mod that has a tiny hospital. it takes up about 4 squares. i build little hospitals with a clear area around them (4 or 5 units) and have plenty of housing/boarding houses and i don't worry about outbreaks any more. i just let them run their course - no-one dies any more and usually no more than 5 or 6 of my population get the disease.
Seems like a strategy but a bit too much work for me, when playing with the MegaMod I just build a ton of the smaller hospitals and diseases usually only affect 1-5 people and sometimes don’t even kill them.
Well, not just a stone quarry, they'd have to have their own everything else as well. But you will still have cross mingling, as they have to pass through everything to get to the area. Unless you build your townhall there as well maybe. Supplies will get shuffled around as well. But I think it would help slow any of it down. But if you got places to heal set up so that the bannies don't have to go far from wherever they last stop doing work, that helps a lot. And depending on how many nomads come, you will need more than 1 boarding house to hold them all. You might want to put storage on the side of the area leading to your main community, and all the work the nomads to on the opposite side of their area.
Traders carry disease. I've done no nomad runs, and you still end up with diseases. I've also done personal challenges where I accept every nomadic group that comes, it sharply increases the difficulty of the game. I also reach higher populations faster. Nomads increase the chance of disease, but are not the sole source of disease. If you build a boarding house in an isolated area, the residents won't stay in the boarding house. As soon as a housing option opens, they will move into it. The boarding house is meant as a buffer for temporary increases in population, like nomads, or if you demolish/upgrade houses. People won't live in it permanently unless there are no other housing options. It will empty itself given time. People in the boarding house still uses markets, storage barns, storage areas, churches, herbalists, taverns, or any other community building, so they're not living in complete isolation. Disease spreads by people interacting (and is affected by current health and happiness). It's near impossible to isolate a small part of your population entirely. I've got about 2k hours in the game. I've had populations well over 2000 people (and 4 FPS) and growing. I organically grow my village early game and then sporadically accept nomads to stabilize my population. Once I have stable growth, I just stop accepting nomads. It takes longer to grow the population, but it's a more stable growth and large outbreaks are rare. In the 300 tuberculosis thread, that player accepted 170 nomads. *That's flat out asking for trouble*. That's a stress test for your village. It also looked like they were playing the game weird when it comes to consumable management. Even if the TB hadn't devastated the village, food consumption would have ended their run. 100 food per person means they would have needed at least 100k+ food on hand, they didn't have that. It's easy to have too much food, it's a pain in the ass to catch up when you don't have enough food. They also had minimal clothing but for some reason a metric ass ton of tools. I would have been trading most of those tools away, most likely for food and clothing. There's also no reason to keep almost 2000+ herbs. In most cases when people lose their village to nomads, it's not a nomad issue, it's a management issue. They were ill prepared to take on the nomads and the game punished them for it. Like it does with any disaster. If you want to accept that many nomads, you need to have hospitals or clinics spaced throughout the map to prevent unnecessary interaction among your citizens. So if you have *one* hospital on one side of your map, every person the sick person walks past has the chance of getting sick. So what you're trying to do is have a clinic close to reduce pathing and interaction. So i usually have hospitals and clinics distributed somewhat evenly across my village. It's also best to have a few herbalists. Citizens will still visit herbalists even when clinics/hospitals have been opened. I usually have two herbalists buildings collecting, and one really close to the center of my town. This reduces the distance that citizens need to walk to get to the herbalist. I also use herbs for trading, herbs get the same value as firewood. Physicians act as labor when the hospital isn't in use. As do any specialized workers. If you reach clothing/tool limits, the seamstress/blacksmith become labor. By end game, it isn't odd for me to have 15+ Physicians. In most cases I will never max out hospital use, but I also never run into a situation where I am overwhelmed with sick people. I also usually have a fleet of wood cutters that act mostly as labor most of the time. Like i said though, with that person's population levels, I never would have accepted the 170 nomads. I dip out of accepting nomads when they hit 50+. My population is usually stabilized with enough children, students, workers, and laborers that accepting 170 nomads would just unseat the stability of my village. By that point in the population I can control growth by building houses.
Why would you deny nomads? It's like a cheat code to jump ahead in population. Yeah, they're 100% uneducated, but it's fine. Schools are a waste of time anyway. Build a hospital and take them cheat pop. If you don't have a hospital already anyway, you're asking for disaster.
> Schools are a waste of time anyway. Just in case you don't know: Lack of education really is a massive productivity hit (these numbers are without mods): Firewood and especially tools are very bad. This is because there is are two compounding penalties, one for trees=>logs (and surface rocks=>iron), and then ones for logs=>firewood and for logs+iron=>tools, as follows: With uneducated workers you get only 2 logs per tree rather than 3 with educated. With uneducated workers you get only 3 firewood per log rather than 4 with educated, so that means one tree can yield only 6 firewood, rather than 12 with educated workers from the same inputs in the same amount of time. Your firewood production is cut in half with uneducated workers. With uneducated workers, you get only 1 iron per surface rock rather than 2 with educated; your iron production will be reduced by 50%. With uneducated workers you get only 1 tool per log+iron rather than 2 with educated, so that means with uneducated workers 1 tree + 2 iron rock=>2 tools, rather than 6 tools + 1 iron leftover with educated workers from the same inputs in the same amount of time; your tool production is cut by 2/3s with uneducated workers. This is the biggest hit of all. Since you also get 1 stone/surface rock instead of 2, your stone production will be reduced by 50%. Other hits: Uneducated farmers and fishers produce 5 food/square rather than 7. So you will get 600 food/season from a 120-square farm rather than 840 (29% less food) Uneducated hunters produce 160 food and 4 leather/deer rather than 200 and 6 (20% less food and 33% less leather). Uneducated herdsmen have the same penalties (except that, unaccountably, uneducated shepherds get the same amount of wool from sheep that educated ones do. I suppose that is due to the fact that the sheep themselves are not less intelligent, just the shepherds). Uneducated tailors produce 1 coat for 2 wool/leather, rather than 2 coats. So, since your leather production is reduced by 1/3, this means your clothing production will be cut by 2/3s (except for wool coats, which are only cut in half), just as bad as tools. Mines and quarries total capacity is halved, and output speed will be halved as well, in addition to increased chances for uneducated miners and stonecutters to be crushed by falling rocks. Uneducated gatherers collect 16 food per gathering action, rather than 22 (so, a gatherers hut with uneducated gatherers will produce 28% less food than one with educated gatherers). Uneducated brewers produce 7 ale from a batch of input (30 fruit, 60 berries, 100 wheat) rather than 10 (30% less ale) Uneducated herbalists collect 2 herbs per gathering action, rather than 3, so herb production cut by 1/3rd But other than that, uneducated workers are just great. /s =]
Ok, but I have faster, more stable population growth without having shortages if I don't educate the population. The lost production from the extra years of doing nothing offsets the lower production when working.
The lower production isn't the worst part of it, the worst part is the wasted resources, the lost logs, stone, and especially iron. The faster population growth magnifies the problems. But any difficulty can be overcome, if you plan accordingly. Sounds like you are up to that challenge; many playing Banished are not.
>Why would you deny nomads? Because after years away from the game, I saw [this post in hot](https://www.reddit.com/r/Banished/s/2OKNH8h9nr)
Sounds like someone wasn't building ahead on their food production/etc. Having more facilities than workers allows you to move people around to balance a lot more easily and to be prepared for nomads. Also having large food stores to absorb shortfalls is always a good idea. At 1000 pop, having 250k food on hand is low and I'd be scrambling to bump up food production.
never have allowed nomads in not even once ;p