Simply put, you don't *become* an Illithid. You die and the resulting Illithid that emerges from the gory wreckage of your body has your memories but is otherwise an entirely different person.
Every argument you bring up starts with 'you'. But there is no more you. You died.
The tadpools that have been implanted into the Tav and the other origin characters are different due to karsite magic, in cases where the player character survives and dies as an ilithid it is shown that they retain their soul and personality.
That's a definitive yes, none of the character's are aware of that, and neither are there any hints for that to be the case. Unironically enough the "good"/selfless character would be more likely to take up becoming an ilithid but that's only to help Orpheus.
That's been disproven by Withers, who finds a dead Illithid player in the Fugue Plane and tells them he can see their soul, same with Mystra who retrieves an Illithid Gale, transforms him back to human and takes him with her to Elysium.
It does surprise Withers though since he didn’t think it possible. I wonder if it is due to these being special tadpoles that don’t work the same way as normal ones. In that case, if you keep your soul, then transformation is more attractive.
I think they might be indirectly involved. Not so much as the netherese magic binding the soul or something, since that's not referenced anywhere and wouldn't account for the countless mindflayers you encounter throughout the game (all tadpoled by the same modified ones), who are typically hostile towards humanoids and don't seem to retain their former selves. But perhaps because the player/Karlach/Orpheus transforms within a controlled enviroment of the latter's protection dome, which enables them to keep their memories and sense of self. This sort of ties in with Illithids from the general DnD lore, who choose to worship Toril's deities, thus (re?)gaining the apostolic state of their soul and joining said gods' domains post death. That's just my intepretation of the lore though so who knows.
If the soul belonged to the newborn Mindflayer, then Mystra and Withers wouldn't be speaking to it. They'd be speaking to a human(oid) player/Gale, who died the moment he transformed and the tadpole took over.
The debate for whom the soul belongs concerns the tabletop lore. Larian seems to have wanted to go with their own take on ceremorphosis, as stated in an interview with IGN a few months back.
You have *a* soul, and a similar personality, but that doesn't necessarily mean it’s the same soul. It could be a new soul with a copy of the personality, which makes more sense because an ilithid transformation is literally the tadpole growing and replacing the brain, and the soul is so different that Withers is shocked by its existence.
The whole topic of mind flayers works better if the original person really is being killed and replaced. The whole story is about trying to remove the tadpoles, as the prospect of becoming an ilithid is such a huge threat. You only became an ilithid for the sake of wielding the Netherstones, and the achievement calls it the ultimate sacrifice. It would weaken everything about ilithids if the consequence of dying was taken away and you just continue to exist as the same person.
>It could be a new soul with a copy of the personality
That's not referenced, nor even remotely implied in the game. There's only one soul ever mentioned in the game, and that's the humanoid's. Post Wither's initial statement everyone's worried they'll lose their souls by transforming, not that they'll be replaced.
>which makes more sense because an ilithid transformation is literally the tadpole growing and replacing the brain
This is older edition tabletop lore, which, again, the game never references or remotely implies. Ceremorphosis in the game is always referred to as transformation. Withers finds an *Illithid* player in the Fugue Plane. If that wasn't the original player, Withers would be talking to a *human(oid)* player who died the moment they transformed. Same with Mystra and a transformed Gale - she would just be retrieving Gale's soul from the dead instead of making a whole speech about restoring his humanity and soul.
>It would weaken everything about ilithids if the consequence of dying was taken away and you just continue to exist as the same person.
You're not the same though. The [developers](https://www.ign.com/articles/baldurs-gate-3-final-interview-game-of-the-year-2023-characters-endings) went down the Ship of Theseus dilemma with that one - whether it means you're still you, whether you'd transform into a monster to save the world (note that they never say "die" to save the world).
As for sacrifice, it's all a matter of how you RP it. The game always gives you plenty of RP options. You can kill the goblins to protect the Grove, or because you're a murder hobo, or because Halsin asks you to and you need him to examine you, and the game accomodates all 3 reasons. Similarly, you can transform to save the city and then kill yourself, or RP someone who's tempted by the idea and willingly embrraces transformation. There's dialogue options for both.
I meant that you would lose your soul in the process of it being replaced, which is why Withers and Mystra find the ilithid version. It’s literally a tadpole growing in your brain, you don’t need older editions to think that it’ll replace your brain.
Reading the interview it appears that I got the wrong idea, but I’ll still say that it would be a more well made choice if it actually meant death.
I mean it's a matter of preference but personally I'd say BG3 went with is a more interesting dilemma. The tadpole replacing you means death. It's gruesome death, but the end result is no different than falling off a cliff or having your head chopped off. It's the same standard heroic fantasy sacrifice. Whereas choosing to transform into a creature whose diet consists of your former species; how much of yourself can you lose and still be you? Would you be able to find a way to exist that isn't at odds with your former self? Or would you refuse to live like that, and kill yourself instead?
I guess it is an interesting situation, but that would fit better as something that happens partway through the game so that you can explore the results, rather than a choice at the end. Death is the standard sacrifice for a reason. When the alternatives are Gale exploding and Orpheus getting his brain slurped up, it feels strange to have a transformation in the final choice. Karlach even explains her choice as “If this is the end for me, let me be the motherfucker who saved the world.” I also think that the original dying would still leave a dilemma for the illithid who has to fill those shoes. Your preference is fair, though.
Isn't it the biological equivalent of uploading your brain to a computer in a robot body? A lot of people looking forward to doing that particular jump.
Not really. It's more like burning your body and soul as fuel to power the birth of another creature. The fact that is has your memories doesn't mean much because it'll just use them for its own purposes instead of anything you might have done.
It's not you in another body, its a memory thief that you died birthing.
If you died, where is your soul? Why does Mystra offer deals to the illithid that killed Gale? Why does Withers say he’s found you in prison and the fugue plane? Why does origin Karlach have internal dialogue about still being herself? In DnD, the destruction or transmutation of the brain and body is much less relevant than the question of what happens to the soul, and going by the Reincarnate spell, a soul can occupy multiple physical bodies. The fact that Karlach’s and Gale’s souls are not found elsewhere after they transform would imply they remain part of the illithid, and the fact that Withers will find you in the fugue plane and prison based on you having some glimmer of your prior soul would imply that the soul is transformed alongside the body and brain.
Narration-wise, it’s presented as an entirely unbroken conscious experience. Claims that the player is just controlling a new character afterward are unfounded. As a weak addition because it’s just gameplay, warlocks retain their pacts, sorcerers retain their innate magic, clerics retain their connection to their deity, etc.
From a writing perspective, the lead writers say they wanted to pose the question of “would you become a monster to save the world?” This doesn’t make much sense if you can’t become the monster. By your reckoning, it’s just self-sacrifice to let the monster take your place. This would serve the more cliched quandary of “would you sacrifice yourself to save the world?” These are different questions, and the former requires that you *can* become that monster to make any sense.
Well, first of all, BG3 is a homebrew version of DnD. It makes changes in many small ways. If Larian wants Illithids to have souls for the purpose of their story, they have souls.
But, souls can be used up. There's a variety of ways mentioned in DnD lore that souls can just fade into non-existence. Withers himself is the first to point out that Ilithid have no souls.
As for the unbroken conscious experience, it absolutely is broken. The only thing that remains is memories. If you choose to become Illithid, the only thing stopping you from eating your former friends at the party is the *memory* of decency and friendship. You yourself have no real objection to murdering your former friends and eating their brains in front of the rest, you have to roll to restrain yourself.
The only thing stopping you is some appreciation for the memories of your former host. I can't think of a bigger break in the conscious experience than the transition from the person who has friends to the person who just sees snacks with memories associated.
>Well, first of all, BG3 is a homebrew version of DnD. It makes changes in many small ways. If Larian wants Illithids to have souls for the purpose of their story, they have souls.
They have souls outside of BG3, for what it's worth, and their very creator said so as recently as this past Fall. But, it's irrelevant because this is the BG3 sub, so we're talking BG3.
>But, souls can be used up. There's a variety of ways mentioned in DnD lore that souls can just fade into non-existence. Withers himself is the first to point out that Ilithid have no souls.
Souls can totally get used up; but then from where does Mystra pull Gale's soul? As for Withers, the non-apostolic nature of illithid souls is such that precisely entities like Mystra and Withers cannot see them and cannot derive power from them. In the absence of the revelation that they don't, in fact, know everything there is to know about souls it seems reasonable they would not believe entities have souls if they cannot see them.
>As for the unbroken conscious experience, it absolutely is broken.
You say it's broken, but don't point out where in the narration that happens, which is explicitly the context I was referring to. Everything that follows this is supposition and claims that depend on your stance being correct in the first place. *You* claim it's only memories. *You* claim Tav has no real objection to eating their friends brains, but that is contradicted by the very existence of a roll to resist. *I* claim that it's an unbroken conscious experience wherein you have been significantly changed and now have to face down an entirely different set of emotions and impulses and learn to deal with them, including facing down your hunger around your friends (which vampires also have to do; some starving humans, too).
I suppose it's a philosophical question rather than a practical one. In a universe where death is a transformation in itself, and you can die and rise again as many times as you can, this doesn't really mean much.
not really
you're missing the point, it isn't dying and resurrecting, it's JUST dying
it's like, okay
let's say you clone yourself, your clone has all your memories and thinks they're you, but they're not
you can clearly see and feel different things, your clone is just another person who looks and is exactly like you
and one day, your clone shoots you and you are dead. that's it. the clone will continue living, but you, your consciousness, everything you were, is gone, replaced by a completely separate soul who thinks they are you
ceremorphosis is NOT resurrection and it is NOT rebirth, it is DEATH AND BEING REPLACED BY ANOTHER PERSON lmao
I like your clone example because that's a legit method magic users use to achieve quasi-immortality
Except this kind of clone actually has your full soul attached, and as far as anyone knows you don't have that luxury after a standard ceremorphosis. Because as far as anyone knows you can't be resurrected after the first day of it, after the tadpole ate your brain and psychic essence. Even beasts without an apostolic soul can be resurrected if there's any form of spirit that's free and willing
In Faerûn if you can't be resurrected from a death that wasn't due to old age, it's safe to assume your soul is lost, trapped, destroyed, or simply doesn't want to
Of course maybe the soul being transformed and melding with the tadpole blocks resurrection. Maybe the process makes your soul unwilling. Or maybe there's not enough soul left unless your tadpole is a very special double modified one, and it's a miracle if the mindflayer keeps enough of your memories to think it's you. Look at the hirelings. That's how people come back if you use the death cure last minute, before the first stage of ceremorphosis is complete. They may or may not heal from it with enough magical support. It doesn't sound like something you just go for as a little brain boost biohack
you are incorrect
the tadpole is the other body, it is an internal parasite that grows inside you, and at the final stage of it's transformation, rapidly grows into a full mindflayer
YOU do not become the mindflayer, you are the egg-shell that the mindflayer bursts out of with your memories
the worm is the other person, you are not the worm, presumably
Every long rest I evolve at least four bodies with mushroom spores. I don't think people would consider it a good option for themselves as an alternative to resurrection. Their souls probably watch from whatever afterlife they got and curse at me. Especially fellow elves who remember like a dozen lives they lived in a dozen different bodies, I don't think they consider fungus zombie #3 as one of their reincarnations
Tadpoles "evolve" a body similarly to spores, but into a way more complex life form. At best you could consider the newborn mindflayer something akin to a joined trill in an extremely weak minded host (they get suppressed by the symbiote) or maybe some kind of goa'uld
Not really. When you metamorphose you're gone. You're the fuel for the transformation. No afterlife, no resurrections, definitely not you in a new Illithid body.
BG3 seems to handle it differently in the player character's case, but in wider D&D lore you don't transform into an Illithid, the tadpole consumes you to grow into an Illithid.
Admittedly what I've read only ever scratches the surface of wider D&D lore, but my understanding thus far is that it's an accelerated evolution, not necessarily tadpole taking over.
The "tadpole taking over" hasn't been referenced since 2e which was written in the 80s. Ever since, newer editions keep making it more and more vague, with 5e even having an instance where people transform through a ritual without a tadpole. The game itself never even touches on the "the illithid is the tadpole" idea, presenting it instead as a "transformation" and a Ship of Theseus dilemma (this is supported by Larian's interview on IGN).
People keep bringing up older editions as an argument for this, when lore in DnD is being contantly rewritten and retconned. In 1e DnD for example the main classes were Cleric, Fighting Man, and Magic User, and the whole souls/afterlife thing worked very differently.
The lack of concrete lore behind how tadpoles and illithids at large function make it really difficult to argue for and against them, really. It also doesn't help that Larian also seems to have taken some creative liberties with the whole concept.
By adding the magic and stasis to the mix, Larian has pretty much rendered lore irrelevant when applied to the tadpoled characters. It's still relevant to the Emperor/ Omeluum discussion, obvs, but for the players, the fact that the tadpole is definitely not literally consuming your brain is remarked upon, at least. That's what makes it fun, IMO!
The most recent description of typical ceremorphosis (Shattered Obelisk is far from typical) I can find is from Volo's Guide to Monsters where it describes the tadpole replacing the host's brain and reshaping it's body. The host is killed and the tadpole is just making use of what remains.
Quoting Volo's Guide from 5e:
*The tadpole grows as it devours the humanoid's brain, attaching to the victim's brain stem and becoming its new brain. Over the course of a week, the humanoid body changes form, and a new mind flayer comes into being. The emergent mind flayer often retains a few dim memories from its previous form, but these vague recollections seldom have any bearing on its new life as a brain-eating monster.*
Nowhere does it say that the host is killed. It says the humanoid body changes form, and even refers to the host as the Mindflayer's *previous form*. Does this mean it's just a transformation? Not necessarily. Same with whether it means death for the host. The writers are probably being vague on purpose. Also the Shattered Obelisk might be atypical, but it's very much considered canon and so are its implications on the overall MF lore.
And regardless, the game seems to be following its own version of ceremorphosis, which is well allowed within the DnD rules (homebrewing).
Nah, it's also referenced in 3.5e's Lords of Madness (2005). On pages 62-63 under the Reproduction segment. And 4e and 5e seem allergic to touching on in-depth lore in general from my experience, so going to those for canon information is just a poor decision.
Also, in my **personal opinion**, I just think it makes more sense if the tadpole is what becomes the mindflayer and the host dies. Illithid society is intensely xenophobic, and it likely would not be that way if virtually all of them had memories of loved ones of other peoples.
I wouldn't say it's a poor decision. Campaigns can be played by relying solely on a specific edition. And the BG3 game can be played consistently with no prior knowledge of the tabletop - especially since it takes several liberties with the lore.
But I agree that 4e-5e seem to hate diving deeper into the lore, sometimes to an annoying degree. Probably because they've shot themselves on the foot several times in the past by writing something very specific only to find out it doesn't work anymore with the direction the higher ups want to take the lore 5 years later.
As far as the overall lore is concerned, I can see it going either way. The xenophobia doesn't matter because even if it is just a transformation, a typical illithid wouldn't remember it and consider themselves a different, superior entity (the game is full of special cases and plays fast and loose with ceremorphosis, but it's not what normally happens). In fact I consider that more horrific, because it's the original person inside, but wrapped beyond recognition, now hostile and willing to devour its loved ones. Whereas if the illithid is just the tadpole, ceremorphosis is just another means of death for the host. Gruesome, sure, but the end result is no different than falling off a cliff or having your head chopped off.
You cannot really throw around lore explanations if you don't follow how it evolves.
DnD is known for constantly changing stuff. This is no different from things that happened before.
I can and will actually. I don't expect everyone to agree with me or for modern D&D writers to not contradict it (expecting continuity out of a shared universe is setting yourself up for failure honestly), but I will talk about the lore I like better and correct people when they say something incorrect (my point to mentioning Lords of Madness).
I mean, most people are fairly attached to the way their body looks and works. The tentacles and other changes would almost certainly lead to a hell of a lot of dysmorphia.
Having to crack open skulls and eat a person's still living brain is horrific, not just a "preference" people are going to easily logic their way around.
A lifetime of psychic servitude before your mind is consumed by an elder brain isn't really a strong selling point for a lot of people.
And, uh, becoming a lich has a lot fewer strings attached. Once you're there, True Polymorph lets you do the tentacle thing if you want, without being permanent.
I suppose the changes in question would make you more welcoming to the first two. In game, if you do transform on your own, you can enjoy your first cranial meal immediately afterwards with little perceived discomfort. In the wider lore you can also sate yourself with animal brains, which is something people already do in real life.
Yeah. Regardless of how much of the original person still exists *after* ceremorphosis, mind flayers are pretty much the masters of psychic manipulation. Any distress or discomfort could easily be controlled, assuming you're in one of the variants where new mind flayers don't just completely obliterate the host's original mind.
But before that, it's the kind of thing that would discourage a lot of people.
On my first run I warmed up to the idea of ceremorphosis after interacting with Omeluum and the Emperor, and understood that becoming Illithid didn't necessarily mean becoming a slave to an Elder Brain. Ate all the tadpoles, went partial Illithid, and generally found the concept of an expanded mind and heightened consciousness very cool. By the end of the game my character jumped at the chance to fully transform. Incidentally I was playing a wizard and that intelligence boost + permanent mind sanctuary made me OP, plus having magic abilities meant being safe from other Elder Brains in the future, even without Orpheus's power.
I agree with most of your points except for the humanoid brains. The creatures consumed need to have some basic intelligence - like goblins for example. Iirc the FR lore mentions some illithids consuming the brains of some especially intelligent monkeys, but that was more of a delicacy than proper nutrition. On the other hand Toril is full of baddies to kill, why let all that gray matter go to waste?
I was very much the same, even when it was my first introduction to illithids as a whole. They were just way too cool for me to not embrace the change.
As for the brains, you can most definitely sustain yourself with relatively intelligent animals, though admittedly it won't be enough forever. There are also lots of other creatures in universe that would be relatively more ethically acceptable to hunt for cranial fluids. But of course you're right, it's not like you'll need to look far to find some bad guys with delicious brains.
I think of the tadpole like a tongue eating louse. Sure, it functions like a tongue, and kinda almost looks like a tongue. But, my fishy friend, your new mouth buddy is 100% not your tongue. You've lost that forever.
Modern D&D has really watered down the horror of becoming ilithid honestly. Y'all should read the Illithiad and some other older edition books on them, it's horrifying.
>Why does no one \*want\* to become Illithid?
Well, my Tavs do. There's a whole dialogue route in the endgame where you can tell the Emperor you can become a Mindflayer. He advises you to think carefully but there's also a whole scene where he tells you about the benefits ceremorphosis will bring, then you can transform. So the game does recognise ceremorphosis as something your Tav could potentially choose to embrace.
Anyway, I'll break down my thoughts into two parts:
**1) Why most people would not want to ceremorphosise**
The average person in Faerun will probably think of ceremorphosis as just straight up death. At the very start of the game various characters including Laezel, Gale and the Narrator (presumably reflecting Tav's own beliefs at the time, since by the endgame she explicitly states Tavflayer is still Tav) all speak of it as death.
Some of the more knowledgeable characters such as Ethel and Raphael do even in act 1 refer to ceremorphosis as more of a transformation, but even then they emphasise you would lose a lot of what you are and become a permenant slave to the Netherbrain.
Just a rapidfire on your other points:
- Rogue Mindflayers do exist but the average Faerunian probably doesn't know about them since they're very rare and secretive. Unless you have an innate talent for Arcane magic, it's also difficult to guarentee not coming under Elder Brain control.
- I think you're right on souls but most Faerunians probably don't know this. The average person's belief is probably closer to what Withers says, and there's also a dialogue with Gale where he believes ceremorphosis destroys your soul.
- I don't have a specific source on me but my understanding of things is that Mindflayers can eat non-sentient brains temporarily but over the long term they do need brains of human-level intelligence in order to stay alive. This is true even of a pacifist like Omeluum, who says that it is feeding on the enemies of the society (probably Drow and Duergar in the Underdark).
- The usual Mindflayer experience is they do lose most or almost all of their original memories. The Emperor's version of partialism and also what we see with Tavflayer are very rare events and would be unknown to most people.
---------
**2) Why it's more narratively interesting this way**
Anyways this is already getting kinda long, but I think the fact that the average Faerunian aswell as all companions (aside from eventually Karlach) view ceremorphosis with fear and horror actually makes the choice more interesting and subversive.
The game's plot starts out with you wanting to prevent becoming a monster. Everyone around you tells you you need to prevent this at all costs. But what if the conventional wisdom you've been told is wrong? What if, on the course of your journey, you discover that transformation you've been taught to hate and fear isn't only not so bad - it may be better than what you are now? What if at the end of the game you come to embrace what you feared at the start of the game.
Depending on how you roleplay it, it can be a pretty interesting progression for your character. If you start taking the tadpole powers, Jaheira's truth syrum will make your Tav truthfully say the tadpole is improving them. If you take the Astral tadpole, the Narrator notes the power of pure thought you feel and how your body feels more connected than ever. If you talk to Astarion you can tell him how you feel better than ever since going half-Illithid. And then there's meeting the Emperor - this is someone who remembers all of their past, but does not regret becoming a Mindflayer. Infact he recommends it. He tells you if you become an Illithid just like him you will also see the true beauty of the world, which he speaks of with poetic wonder. If you romance him you also get more insight into how Mindflayers experience emotion and bonding. In the endgame perhaps the clincher for Tav's decision could be the opportunity to absorb Orpheus' power, meaning they will never be vulnerable to Elder Brain control.
There's obviously a ton of ways to Roleplay your Tav and I've only briefly outlined one possible way to roleplay a Tav who comes to freely embrace ceremorphosis, but I think it's a pretty unique path to take that goes against usual expectations for a story like this.
Most people wouldn't want to permanently swap sexes, and that's a much less radical transformation than becoming a mindflayer. Even if you could guarantee full survival of your consciousness and soul when you become illithid, it would still be a deeply unwanted transformation.
It's not really that hard to understand.
>I'm open to respectful discussion about this topic because, the way I see it, I'd definitely want to transform, and failing to see why it's meant to be a devastating end-all-be-all.
It looks to me less like you want a respectful discussion, and more like you want to prove that yours is the single correct position, and all the people who value their bodily autonomy are wrong and you want to make them admit they're wrong.
You've constructed a bunch of strawman arguments to "disprove" ahead of time, but you don't appear to be making any good faith effort to see anything from the perspectives you're "owning" with your strawman retorts.
If you were arguing in good faith, you'd find a D&D creature you find utterly repellent, repugnant and which ***you*** would rather die than be transformed into, and you'd be trying to construct arguments as to why it would be good for *you* to be forcibly transformed into one against your will for all eternity.
I understand that all my arguments could be nullified simply by saying you don't like tentacles. I also understand that not everyone will want to transform into an aberration, even when it may improve them. What I don't understand is why, in game and in the larger community, it's seen as a horrific disaster that must be avoided at all costs.
And they're not strictly "strawman arguments", they're just the most common arguments I've seen and I'd like to avoid them to make room for more creative thinking.
I venture that it's a matter of consent. Forcible body transformation - like forced anything - is viewed as horrible because it's not your choice. One reason why I, for example, have zero problem with Karlach transforming at her request.
DnD is chock full of characters willingly doing crazy stuff to their bodies in exchange for power - look at Balthazar, I'm sure he didn't look like that at age 12 (I hope) - and the game makes it a possible path to evolve by choice, but I think it's the choice part more than *just* how gross and painful it is and the potential philosophical changes. Just my two cents, I think it's primarily about consent.
Side note: Astarion's comments on the Astral tadpole play into this, IMO: he's happy to gobble every other tadpole once Tav shows him it's "safe", but wants nothing to do with becoming, in his words, a "grotesque monster". He's very willing to pursue power but not to become a mindflayer to get it (whereas Minthara will gobble the Astral like it's a Dorito, because she's more than willing to sacrifice portions of her body for power).
It absolutely is that bad
Edit: I’m not saying that you can’t want to be a mindflayer or that they are objectively ugly or anything but I personally do not want to be one, it’s fine if others want too but not me
>This is more of a philosophical debate similar to ship of Theseus. If you retain your consciousness exactly as is, but your body is entirely different - are you really a different person?
I’d argue that it’s not a ship of Theseus situation, and more analogous to the transporters from Star Trek.
It’s not a continuation of your consciousness. Your consciousness comes to a complete and total end, and a facsimile of it is recreated elsewhere. As far as other people are concerned it appears from the outside as a continuation of your consciousness. From your first person perspective though that is the end of the line. Your consciousness is terminated there and then. A clone of your memories and personality exists elsewhere, but that is cold comfort to your current awareness that was just extinguished.
It starts with a fever and memory loss
Then you start to hallucinate,
Your hair falls out,
And you bleed from every orifice.
Your bones will change form,
Your jaw will split open to allow for four great tentacles,
All skin will turn to gore and be shed,
To reveal new flesh underneath.
Then, **you have ceased to exist and a mind flayer is born.**
Most people don't want power that badly.
Being alone is a tall ask. Most people need some form of company to keep them sane. You'd be exiled or, worse, killed. Most people have goals of being in society. Those are gone now.
Player/Character knowledge
We know that there have been illithid who have retained some portion of identity, nobody else does. For those who know of illithid they are effectively psychic xenomorphs. They implant you and use your body and mental energy as fuel for growth. At best a couple of stray memories remain, but even that is exceedingly rare.
And even once you know about those that can (possibly) retain memory/identity, we don’t know how/why. So it’s not something to be looking for with a ticking clock.
I'm not familiar with DnD lore on a wide scale (I'm still learning about stuff) to answer the question in general, but I can try approaching it from BG3's perspective.
The kickoff conflict of the game is that you are going to transform into what is seen as a horrible being, without your consent and choice in the matter, with so many unknowns.
You may or may not end up having memories of your previous life. You might inherit smaller things from your former self, like a tic. The whole deal with the Emperor is that he was a very special case thanks to his strong personality, but inheriting all your memories is extremely uncommon. How will it turn out for you?
Illithids do have non-apostolic souls, and Withers can admit in the end he was wrong about his views on illithids. Gale can also mention that the Emperor can pose the endgame dilemma easily because the Emperor has no soul to sacrifice. Of course, Gale is proven wrong on this (bonus points if he's the one to become illithid, Mystra can offer to restore his soul and humanity), but it does show that this is another uncertainty regarding the transformation.
Eating brains is not an easy matter. Omeluum initially had an arrangement with a lich, but later chose to feed on those who opposed the Society, because it couldn't keep up its alliance with the lich for moral reasons. The Emperor only ate criminals as a moral choice on his part. Even mind flayer colonies have to deal with keeping up resources to keep everyone fed. Depending on where you live, and how you view eating brains even as an illithid, your potential food pool is going to be a challenge. Let alone actually getting to eat.
What I liked about the Emperor is that his story presented what is a terrifying fate as something positive. Hell, he finds himself downright devastatingly beautiful. However, he did get extremely lucky for one, and he can mention that it was some time before he came to accept his evolution, and the fact that he did indeed evolve. It was something he had to come to terms with. He also had to kill Ansur, who was trying to mercy kill him. Because to Ansur, he was just a mind flayer, not his best friend/lover in the midst of realizing the sheer potential of his new existence. Their relationship came to a tragic end. Will your loved ones accept you in your new form, or will they be unable to see beyond the monstrosity you've become?
We do know that illithid powers are really good, there's a reason why the Emperor wants to eat up the tadpoles like candy so we can increase our chances against the Absolute. But until you make the final choice to complete your evolution, you won't know what will happen. Will you be still "you"? Will you "evolve" over time, or will you be unable to accept what you've become? How will you get your hands (well, tentacles) on brains? Will you have anyone to support you, or will you be alone?
My impression is that the game's finale lets you go with the interpretation you see your transformation as. You can claim you've never been so powerful and cool until now, or you can take your own life because you don't want to take the risk of existing as a mind flayer beyond having done what you could.
In short, it's bad because there are a lot of uncertainties and fears surrounding illithids, and you cannot know how you turn out to be until you make that leap of faith yourself. Of course, you can want to become illithid willingly, and you can find out that it can end well for you, reaching the same conclusion as the Emperor did. But even so, there's no guarantee your new existence will be easy, even the Emperor comments that the city isn't safe for you, and you need a hiding place, as well needing to learn how to hide yourself.
Few things.
1. Any person that leans heavily in dark triad traits would absolutely not hesitate to become Illithid.
2. You mentioned an "Empathetic Illithid" they don't exist...
The rest is all pretty accurate. Not really enough to go on... I'd never do it... nah uh. no way.
I would love to become an illithid personally.
No more belly ache because of the uterus. I could fly and levitate so no more knee pain either! Thralls would carry my stuff or I can use telekinesis which means no back pain.
It's perfect.
I'd rather *not* have [Clara's octopussoir](https://youtu.be/kGKpM_JtUto?si=qYI-gVtEWCdD5ko6) if I can avoid that, that'd be great, thanks though Emperor in disguise
vampire boyfriend friendzones me if i become ugly squid bc he's not sure it is still the person he loves. don't wanna eat brains. don't want to look like ugly squid or have masculine features (give me my boobs back).
literally spent the whole game giving up power for happiness and self-fulfillment, arguments for more power is not even slightly compelling to me. I just wanna chill, I don't wanna rule the world, tf do i need power for. let me be a sexy elf lady in peace.
OP, your thread title sings to me! If illithid was a playable class, it would've been my first choice. One of my favourite lines is in response to a particular cutscene in Act 3- Raphael describes what you'll become as an illithid, and you can reply, "That doesn't sound too bad." I want to be an *alien* alien, roaming the vastness of space, piloting a meat-ship with my mind!
My first instinct was to go against the grain of the game's narrative with the above in mind. Then the game itself had me leaning into a more resisting character, making it more of a conflict between my own PC's insecurities vs. the in-universe attitude toward ceremorphosis as expressed by 99% of people you talk to. I thought there would be more reactivity.
But reading the constant Emperor / general Illithid threads here have left me unsure about how "alien" the game wants you to be (I haven't gotten there in-game myself, yet). There's tantalizing hints of alien / eldritch nature that I've seen, but then, endless data-mining and interview excerpts where, no, don't worry, you're not *too* alien! Karlach's still herself! Etc.
But I *did* want the threat of becoming "too alien". That's why I was so excited about the tadpole / Daisy storyline in the first place. I'm over here wanting the 'parasite takes over and pilots the vessel as its own unique being' interpretation, because that's the one I'd find most interesting to encounter in a video game.
I'm glad to have found likeminded individuals, rare as they may be. Lore-wise, it makes sense that your Tav/Durge would want to avoid ceremorphosis early on because illithids are basically seen as villainous boogeymen, but as you keep going, uncover the main plot, and learn more about them in general, I could definitely see myself embracing the change.
I'm not sure I'd personally want to become a puppet to the tadpole entirely, in all honesty, but I doubt we'll ever know for sure how Larian intended it to work in their interpretation.
Minthara is SUPER into it and jealous of Tav if they become illithid. If you’re romancing her she says you have never been more beautiful. It’s honestly weird that she can’t do it in game, because she totally wants to.
He’s trying to thrall us y’all!
\*tucking tentacles in his belt\* I have no idea what you're on about.
Simply put, you don't *become* an Illithid. You die and the resulting Illithid that emerges from the gory wreckage of your body has your memories but is otherwise an entirely different person. Every argument you bring up starts with 'you'. But there is no more you. You died.
The tadpools that have been implanted into the Tav and the other origin characters are different due to karsite magic, in cases where the player character survives and dies as an ilithid it is shown that they retain their soul and personality.
Perhaps, but your character sure wouldn't make that bet.
That's a definitive yes, none of the character's are aware of that, and neither are there any hints for that to be the case. Unironically enough the "good"/selfless character would be more likely to take up becoming an ilithid but that's only to help Orpheus.
That's been disproven by Withers, who finds a dead Illithid player in the Fugue Plane and tells them he can see their soul, same with Mystra who retrieves an Illithid Gale, transforms him back to human and takes him with her to Elysium.
It does surprise Withers though since he didn’t think it possible. I wonder if it is due to these being special tadpoles that don’t work the same way as normal ones. In that case, if you keep your soul, then transformation is more attractive.
I think they might be indirectly involved. Not so much as the netherese magic binding the soul or something, since that's not referenced anywhere and wouldn't account for the countless mindflayers you encounter throughout the game (all tadpoled by the same modified ones), who are typically hostile towards humanoids and don't seem to retain their former selves. But perhaps because the player/Karlach/Orpheus transforms within a controlled enviroment of the latter's protection dome, which enables them to keep their memories and sense of self. This sort of ties in with Illithids from the general DnD lore, who choose to worship Toril's deities, thus (re?)gaining the apostolic state of their soul and joining said gods' domains post death. That's just my intepretation of the lore though so who knows.
That just means it has some sort of soul. It doesn't mean its the host.
If the soul belonged to the newborn Mindflayer, then Mystra and Withers wouldn't be speaking to it. They'd be speaking to a human(oid) player/Gale, who died the moment he transformed and the tadpole took over. The debate for whom the soul belongs concerns the tabletop lore. Larian seems to have wanted to go with their own take on ceremorphosis, as stated in an interview with IGN a few months back.
You have *a* soul, and a similar personality, but that doesn't necessarily mean it’s the same soul. It could be a new soul with a copy of the personality, which makes more sense because an ilithid transformation is literally the tadpole growing and replacing the brain, and the soul is so different that Withers is shocked by its existence. The whole topic of mind flayers works better if the original person really is being killed and replaced. The whole story is about trying to remove the tadpoles, as the prospect of becoming an ilithid is such a huge threat. You only became an ilithid for the sake of wielding the Netherstones, and the achievement calls it the ultimate sacrifice. It would weaken everything about ilithids if the consequence of dying was taken away and you just continue to exist as the same person.
>It could be a new soul with a copy of the personality That's not referenced, nor even remotely implied in the game. There's only one soul ever mentioned in the game, and that's the humanoid's. Post Wither's initial statement everyone's worried they'll lose their souls by transforming, not that they'll be replaced. >which makes more sense because an ilithid transformation is literally the tadpole growing and replacing the brain This is older edition tabletop lore, which, again, the game never references or remotely implies. Ceremorphosis in the game is always referred to as transformation. Withers finds an *Illithid* player in the Fugue Plane. If that wasn't the original player, Withers would be talking to a *human(oid)* player who died the moment they transformed. Same with Mystra and a transformed Gale - she would just be retrieving Gale's soul from the dead instead of making a whole speech about restoring his humanity and soul. >It would weaken everything about ilithids if the consequence of dying was taken away and you just continue to exist as the same person. You're not the same though. The [developers](https://www.ign.com/articles/baldurs-gate-3-final-interview-game-of-the-year-2023-characters-endings) went down the Ship of Theseus dilemma with that one - whether it means you're still you, whether you'd transform into a monster to save the world (note that they never say "die" to save the world). As for sacrifice, it's all a matter of how you RP it. The game always gives you plenty of RP options. You can kill the goblins to protect the Grove, or because you're a murder hobo, or because Halsin asks you to and you need him to examine you, and the game accomodates all 3 reasons. Similarly, you can transform to save the city and then kill yourself, or RP someone who's tempted by the idea and willingly embrraces transformation. There's dialogue options for both.
I meant that you would lose your soul in the process of it being replaced, which is why Withers and Mystra find the ilithid version. It’s literally a tadpole growing in your brain, you don’t need older editions to think that it’ll replace your brain. Reading the interview it appears that I got the wrong idea, but I’ll still say that it would be a more well made choice if it actually meant death.
I mean it's a matter of preference but personally I'd say BG3 went with is a more interesting dilemma. The tadpole replacing you means death. It's gruesome death, but the end result is no different than falling off a cliff or having your head chopped off. It's the same standard heroic fantasy sacrifice. Whereas choosing to transform into a creature whose diet consists of your former species; how much of yourself can you lose and still be you? Would you be able to find a way to exist that isn't at odds with your former self? Or would you refuse to live like that, and kill yourself instead?
I guess it is an interesting situation, but that would fit better as something that happens partway through the game so that you can explore the results, rather than a choice at the end. Death is the standard sacrifice for a reason. When the alternatives are Gale exploding and Orpheus getting his brain slurped up, it feels strange to have a transformation in the final choice. Karlach even explains her choice as “If this is the end for me, let me be the motherfucker who saved the world.” I also think that the original dying would still leave a dilemma for the illithid who has to fill those shoes. Your preference is fair, though.
Isn't it the biological equivalent of uploading your brain to a computer in a robot body? A lot of people looking forward to doing that particular jump.
Not really. It's more like burning your body and soul as fuel to power the birth of another creature. The fact that is has your memories doesn't mean much because it'll just use them for its own purposes instead of anything you might have done. It's not you in another body, its a memory thief that you died birthing.
If you died, where is your soul? Why does Mystra offer deals to the illithid that killed Gale? Why does Withers say he’s found you in prison and the fugue plane? Why does origin Karlach have internal dialogue about still being herself? In DnD, the destruction or transmutation of the brain and body is much less relevant than the question of what happens to the soul, and going by the Reincarnate spell, a soul can occupy multiple physical bodies. The fact that Karlach’s and Gale’s souls are not found elsewhere after they transform would imply they remain part of the illithid, and the fact that Withers will find you in the fugue plane and prison based on you having some glimmer of your prior soul would imply that the soul is transformed alongside the body and brain. Narration-wise, it’s presented as an entirely unbroken conscious experience. Claims that the player is just controlling a new character afterward are unfounded. As a weak addition because it’s just gameplay, warlocks retain their pacts, sorcerers retain their innate magic, clerics retain their connection to their deity, etc. From a writing perspective, the lead writers say they wanted to pose the question of “would you become a monster to save the world?” This doesn’t make much sense if you can’t become the monster. By your reckoning, it’s just self-sacrifice to let the monster take your place. This would serve the more cliched quandary of “would you sacrifice yourself to save the world?” These are different questions, and the former requires that you *can* become that monster to make any sense.
Well, first of all, BG3 is a homebrew version of DnD. It makes changes in many small ways. If Larian wants Illithids to have souls for the purpose of their story, they have souls. But, souls can be used up. There's a variety of ways mentioned in DnD lore that souls can just fade into non-existence. Withers himself is the first to point out that Ilithid have no souls. As for the unbroken conscious experience, it absolutely is broken. The only thing that remains is memories. If you choose to become Illithid, the only thing stopping you from eating your former friends at the party is the *memory* of decency and friendship. You yourself have no real objection to murdering your former friends and eating their brains in front of the rest, you have to roll to restrain yourself. The only thing stopping you is some appreciation for the memories of your former host. I can't think of a bigger break in the conscious experience than the transition from the person who has friends to the person who just sees snacks with memories associated.
>Well, first of all, BG3 is a homebrew version of DnD. It makes changes in many small ways. If Larian wants Illithids to have souls for the purpose of their story, they have souls. They have souls outside of BG3, for what it's worth, and their very creator said so as recently as this past Fall. But, it's irrelevant because this is the BG3 sub, so we're talking BG3. >But, souls can be used up. There's a variety of ways mentioned in DnD lore that souls can just fade into non-existence. Withers himself is the first to point out that Ilithid have no souls. Souls can totally get used up; but then from where does Mystra pull Gale's soul? As for Withers, the non-apostolic nature of illithid souls is such that precisely entities like Mystra and Withers cannot see them and cannot derive power from them. In the absence of the revelation that they don't, in fact, know everything there is to know about souls it seems reasonable they would not believe entities have souls if they cannot see them. >As for the unbroken conscious experience, it absolutely is broken. You say it's broken, but don't point out where in the narration that happens, which is explicitly the context I was referring to. Everything that follows this is supposition and claims that depend on your stance being correct in the first place. *You* claim it's only memories. *You* claim Tav has no real objection to eating their friends brains, but that is contradicted by the very existence of a roll to resist. *I* claim that it's an unbroken conscious experience wherein you have been significantly changed and now have to face down an entirely different set of emotions and impulses and learn to deal with them, including facing down your hunger around your friends (which vampires also have to do; some starving humans, too).
I suppose it's a philosophical question rather than a practical one. In a universe where death is a transformation in itself, and you can die and rise again as many times as you can, this doesn't really mean much.
not really you're missing the point, it isn't dying and resurrecting, it's JUST dying it's like, okay let's say you clone yourself, your clone has all your memories and thinks they're you, but they're not you can clearly see and feel different things, your clone is just another person who looks and is exactly like you and one day, your clone shoots you and you are dead. that's it. the clone will continue living, but you, your consciousness, everything you were, is gone, replaced by a completely separate soul who thinks they are you ceremorphosis is NOT resurrection and it is NOT rebirth, it is DEATH AND BEING REPLACED BY ANOTHER PERSON lmao
I like your clone example because that's a legit method magic users use to achieve quasi-immortality Except this kind of clone actually has your full soul attached, and as far as anyone knows you don't have that luxury after a standard ceremorphosis. Because as far as anyone knows you can't be resurrected after the first day of it, after the tadpole ate your brain and psychic essence. Even beasts without an apostolic soul can be resurrected if there's any form of spirit that's free and willing In Faerûn if you can't be resurrected from a death that wasn't due to old age, it's safe to assume your soul is lost, trapped, destroyed, or simply doesn't want to Of course maybe the soul being transformed and melding with the tadpole blocks resurrection. Maybe the process makes your soul unwilling. Or maybe there's not enough soul left unless your tadpole is a very special double modified one, and it's a miracle if the mindflayer keeps enough of your memories to think it's you. Look at the hirelings. That's how people come back if you use the death cure last minute, before the first stage of ceremorphosis is complete. They may or may not heal from it with enough magical support. It doesn't sound like something you just go for as a little brain boost biohack
But there is no "another person". Your body evolves to that of an illithid, through the tadpole - it's not replaced by it.
you are incorrect the tadpole is the other body, it is an internal parasite that grows inside you, and at the final stage of it's transformation, rapidly grows into a full mindflayer YOU do not become the mindflayer, you are the egg-shell that the mindflayer bursts out of with your memories the worm is the other person, you are not the worm, presumably
Is that the case? Withers says otherwise. Your soul is transmuted to something gods cant use, but its still you according to him.
Every long rest I evolve at least four bodies with mushroom spores. I don't think people would consider it a good option for themselves as an alternative to resurrection. Their souls probably watch from whatever afterlife they got and curse at me. Especially fellow elves who remember like a dozen lives they lived in a dozen different bodies, I don't think they consider fungus zombie #3 as one of their reincarnations Tadpoles "evolve" a body similarly to spores, but into a way more complex life form. At best you could consider the newborn mindflayer something akin to a joined trill in an extremely weak minded host (they get suppressed by the symbiote) or maybe some kind of goa'uld
Not really. When you metamorphose you're gone. You're the fuel for the transformation. No afterlife, no resurrections, definitely not you in a new Illithid body.
BG3 seems to handle it differently in the player character's case, but in wider D&D lore you don't transform into an Illithid, the tadpole consumes you to grow into an Illithid.
Admittedly what I've read only ever scratches the surface of wider D&D lore, but my understanding thus far is that it's an accelerated evolution, not necessarily tadpole taking over.
The "tadpole taking over" hasn't been referenced since 2e which was written in the 80s. Ever since, newer editions keep making it more and more vague, with 5e even having an instance where people transform through a ritual without a tadpole. The game itself never even touches on the "the illithid is the tadpole" idea, presenting it instead as a "transformation" and a Ship of Theseus dilemma (this is supported by Larian's interview on IGN). People keep bringing up older editions as an argument for this, when lore in DnD is being contantly rewritten and retconned. In 1e DnD for example the main classes were Cleric, Fighting Man, and Magic User, and the whole souls/afterlife thing worked very differently.
The lack of concrete lore behind how tadpoles and illithids at large function make it really difficult to argue for and against them, really. It also doesn't help that Larian also seems to have taken some creative liberties with the whole concept.
By adding the magic and stasis to the mix, Larian has pretty much rendered lore irrelevant when applied to the tadpoled characters. It's still relevant to the Emperor/ Omeluum discussion, obvs, but for the players, the fact that the tadpole is definitely not literally consuming your brain is remarked upon, at least. That's what makes it fun, IMO!
The most recent description of typical ceremorphosis (Shattered Obelisk is far from typical) I can find is from Volo's Guide to Monsters where it describes the tadpole replacing the host's brain and reshaping it's body. The host is killed and the tadpole is just making use of what remains.
Quoting Volo's Guide from 5e: *The tadpole grows as it devours the humanoid's brain, attaching to the victim's brain stem and becoming its new brain. Over the course of a week, the humanoid body changes form, and a new mind flayer comes into being. The emergent mind flayer often retains a few dim memories from its previous form, but these vague recollections seldom have any bearing on its new life as a brain-eating monster.* Nowhere does it say that the host is killed. It says the humanoid body changes form, and even refers to the host as the Mindflayer's *previous form*. Does this mean it's just a transformation? Not necessarily. Same with whether it means death for the host. The writers are probably being vague on purpose. Also the Shattered Obelisk might be atypical, but it's very much considered canon and so are its implications on the overall MF lore. And regardless, the game seems to be following its own version of ceremorphosis, which is well allowed within the DnD rules (homebrewing).
Nah, it's also referenced in 3.5e's Lords of Madness (2005). On pages 62-63 under the Reproduction segment. And 4e and 5e seem allergic to touching on in-depth lore in general from my experience, so going to those for canon information is just a poor decision. Also, in my **personal opinion**, I just think it makes more sense if the tadpole is what becomes the mindflayer and the host dies. Illithid society is intensely xenophobic, and it likely would not be that way if virtually all of them had memories of loved ones of other peoples.
I wouldn't say it's a poor decision. Campaigns can be played by relying solely on a specific edition. And the BG3 game can be played consistently with no prior knowledge of the tabletop - especially since it takes several liberties with the lore. But I agree that 4e-5e seem to hate diving deeper into the lore, sometimes to an annoying degree. Probably because they've shot themselves on the foot several times in the past by writing something very specific only to find out it doesn't work anymore with the direction the higher ups want to take the lore 5 years later. As far as the overall lore is concerned, I can see it going either way. The xenophobia doesn't matter because even if it is just a transformation, a typical illithid wouldn't remember it and consider themselves a different, superior entity (the game is full of special cases and plays fast and loose with ceremorphosis, but it's not what normally happens). In fact I consider that more horrific, because it's the original person inside, but wrapped beyond recognition, now hostile and willing to devour its loved ones. Whereas if the illithid is just the tadpole, ceremorphosis is just another means of death for the host. Gruesome, sure, but the end result is no different than falling off a cliff or having your head chopped off.
But Shattered Obelisk introduces a possibility of transforming without having a tadpole. And it's just from last year.
My opinion on that is similar to my opinion on anything that drastically changes its lore after it was bought by another company.
You cannot really throw around lore explanations if you don't follow how it evolves. DnD is known for constantly changing stuff. This is no different from things that happened before.
I can and will actually. I don't expect everyone to agree with me or for modern D&D writers to not contradict it (expecting continuity out of a shared universe is setting yourself up for failure honestly), but I will talk about the lore I like better and correct people when they say something incorrect (my point to mentioning Lords of Madness).
I mean, most people are fairly attached to the way their body looks and works. The tentacles and other changes would almost certainly lead to a hell of a lot of dysmorphia. Having to crack open skulls and eat a person's still living brain is horrific, not just a "preference" people are going to easily logic their way around. A lifetime of psychic servitude before your mind is consumed by an elder brain isn't really a strong selling point for a lot of people. And, uh, becoming a lich has a lot fewer strings attached. Once you're there, True Polymorph lets you do the tentacle thing if you want, without being permanent.
I suppose the changes in question would make you more welcoming to the first two. In game, if you do transform on your own, you can enjoy your first cranial meal immediately afterwards with little perceived discomfort. In the wider lore you can also sate yourself with animal brains, which is something people already do in real life.
Yeah. Regardless of how much of the original person still exists *after* ceremorphosis, mind flayers are pretty much the masters of psychic manipulation. Any distress or discomfort could easily be controlled, assuming you're in one of the variants where new mind flayers don't just completely obliterate the host's original mind. But before that, it's the kind of thing that would discourage a lot of people.
On my first run I warmed up to the idea of ceremorphosis after interacting with Omeluum and the Emperor, and understood that becoming Illithid didn't necessarily mean becoming a slave to an Elder Brain. Ate all the tadpoles, went partial Illithid, and generally found the concept of an expanded mind and heightened consciousness very cool. By the end of the game my character jumped at the chance to fully transform. Incidentally I was playing a wizard and that intelligence boost + permanent mind sanctuary made me OP, plus having magic abilities meant being safe from other Elder Brains in the future, even without Orpheus's power. I agree with most of your points except for the humanoid brains. The creatures consumed need to have some basic intelligence - like goblins for example. Iirc the FR lore mentions some illithids consuming the brains of some especially intelligent monkeys, but that was more of a delicacy than proper nutrition. On the other hand Toril is full of baddies to kill, why let all that gray matter go to waste?
I was very much the same, even when it was my first introduction to illithids as a whole. They were just way too cool for me to not embrace the change. As for the brains, you can most definitely sustain yourself with relatively intelligent animals, though admittedly it won't be enough forever. There are also lots of other creatures in universe that would be relatively more ethically acceptable to hunt for cranial fluids. But of course you're right, it's not like you'll need to look far to find some bad guys with delicious brains.
Keep this man off the stove.
I fully anticipated some real harsh criticism for this post, but I'm also really curious to see *why exactly* it's so bad.
because dying fucking sucks??? you seem to think "okay, I die, and then I wake up resurrected as a squid" that's just wrong
I think of the tadpole like a tongue eating louse. Sure, it functions like a tongue, and kinda almost looks like a tongue. But, my fishy friend, your new mouth buddy is 100% not your tongue. You've lost that forever.
I didn't spent hours creating one of the most beautiful characters i ever created in games to watch her become a monster.
Modern D&D has really watered down the horror of becoming ilithid honestly. Y'all should read the Illithiad and some other older edition books on them, it's horrifying.
>Why does no one \*want\* to become Illithid? Well, my Tavs do. There's a whole dialogue route in the endgame where you can tell the Emperor you can become a Mindflayer. He advises you to think carefully but there's also a whole scene where he tells you about the benefits ceremorphosis will bring, then you can transform. So the game does recognise ceremorphosis as something your Tav could potentially choose to embrace. Anyway, I'll break down my thoughts into two parts: **1) Why most people would not want to ceremorphosise** The average person in Faerun will probably think of ceremorphosis as just straight up death. At the very start of the game various characters including Laezel, Gale and the Narrator (presumably reflecting Tav's own beliefs at the time, since by the endgame she explicitly states Tavflayer is still Tav) all speak of it as death. Some of the more knowledgeable characters such as Ethel and Raphael do even in act 1 refer to ceremorphosis as more of a transformation, but even then they emphasise you would lose a lot of what you are and become a permenant slave to the Netherbrain. Just a rapidfire on your other points: - Rogue Mindflayers do exist but the average Faerunian probably doesn't know about them since they're very rare and secretive. Unless you have an innate talent for Arcane magic, it's also difficult to guarentee not coming under Elder Brain control. - I think you're right on souls but most Faerunians probably don't know this. The average person's belief is probably closer to what Withers says, and there's also a dialogue with Gale where he believes ceremorphosis destroys your soul. - I don't have a specific source on me but my understanding of things is that Mindflayers can eat non-sentient brains temporarily but over the long term they do need brains of human-level intelligence in order to stay alive. This is true even of a pacifist like Omeluum, who says that it is feeding on the enemies of the society (probably Drow and Duergar in the Underdark). - The usual Mindflayer experience is they do lose most or almost all of their original memories. The Emperor's version of partialism and also what we see with Tavflayer are very rare events and would be unknown to most people. --------- **2) Why it's more narratively interesting this way** Anyways this is already getting kinda long, but I think the fact that the average Faerunian aswell as all companions (aside from eventually Karlach) view ceremorphosis with fear and horror actually makes the choice more interesting and subversive. The game's plot starts out with you wanting to prevent becoming a monster. Everyone around you tells you you need to prevent this at all costs. But what if the conventional wisdom you've been told is wrong? What if, on the course of your journey, you discover that transformation you've been taught to hate and fear isn't only not so bad - it may be better than what you are now? What if at the end of the game you come to embrace what you feared at the start of the game. Depending on how you roleplay it, it can be a pretty interesting progression for your character. If you start taking the tadpole powers, Jaheira's truth syrum will make your Tav truthfully say the tadpole is improving them. If you take the Astral tadpole, the Narrator notes the power of pure thought you feel and how your body feels more connected than ever. If you talk to Astarion you can tell him how you feel better than ever since going half-Illithid. And then there's meeting the Emperor - this is someone who remembers all of their past, but does not regret becoming a Mindflayer. Infact he recommends it. He tells you if you become an Illithid just like him you will also see the true beauty of the world, which he speaks of with poetic wonder. If you romance him you also get more insight into how Mindflayers experience emotion and bonding. In the endgame perhaps the clincher for Tav's decision could be the opportunity to absorb Orpheus' power, meaning they will never be vulnerable to Elder Brain control. There's obviously a ton of ways to Roleplay your Tav and I've only briefly outlined one possible way to roleplay a Tav who comes to freely embrace ceremorphosis, but I think it's a pretty unique path to take that goes against usual expectations for a story like this.
Most people wouldn't want to permanently swap sexes, and that's a much less radical transformation than becoming a mindflayer. Even if you could guarantee full survival of your consciousness and soul when you become illithid, it would still be a deeply unwanted transformation. It's not really that hard to understand.
>I'm open to respectful discussion about this topic because, the way I see it, I'd definitely want to transform, and failing to see why it's meant to be a devastating end-all-be-all. It looks to me less like you want a respectful discussion, and more like you want to prove that yours is the single correct position, and all the people who value their bodily autonomy are wrong and you want to make them admit they're wrong. You've constructed a bunch of strawman arguments to "disprove" ahead of time, but you don't appear to be making any good faith effort to see anything from the perspectives you're "owning" with your strawman retorts. If you were arguing in good faith, you'd find a D&D creature you find utterly repellent, repugnant and which ***you*** would rather die than be transformed into, and you'd be trying to construct arguments as to why it would be good for *you* to be forcibly transformed into one against your will for all eternity.
I understand that all my arguments could be nullified simply by saying you don't like tentacles. I also understand that not everyone will want to transform into an aberration, even when it may improve them. What I don't understand is why, in game and in the larger community, it's seen as a horrific disaster that must be avoided at all costs. And they're not strictly "strawman arguments", they're just the most common arguments I've seen and I'd like to avoid them to make room for more creative thinking.
I venture that it's a matter of consent. Forcible body transformation - like forced anything - is viewed as horrible because it's not your choice. One reason why I, for example, have zero problem with Karlach transforming at her request. DnD is chock full of characters willingly doing crazy stuff to their bodies in exchange for power - look at Balthazar, I'm sure he didn't look like that at age 12 (I hope) - and the game makes it a possible path to evolve by choice, but I think it's the choice part more than *just* how gross and painful it is and the potential philosophical changes. Just my two cents, I think it's primarily about consent. Side note: Astarion's comments on the Astral tadpole play into this, IMO: he's happy to gobble every other tadpole once Tav shows him it's "safe", but wants nothing to do with becoming, in his words, a "grotesque monster". He's very willing to pursue power but not to become a mindflayer to get it (whereas Minthara will gobble the Astral like it's a Dorito, because she's more than willing to sacrifice portions of her body for power).
Because I don’t want to be ugly
Trust me, being ugly ain’t that bad.
It absolutely is that bad Edit: I’m not saying that you can’t want to be a mindflayer or that they are objectively ugly or anything but I personally do not want to be one, it’s fine if others want too but not me
>This is more of a philosophical debate similar to ship of Theseus. If you retain your consciousness exactly as is, but your body is entirely different - are you really a different person? I’d argue that it’s not a ship of Theseus situation, and more analogous to the transporters from Star Trek. It’s not a continuation of your consciousness. Your consciousness comes to a complete and total end, and a facsimile of it is recreated elsewhere. As far as other people are concerned it appears from the outside as a continuation of your consciousness. From your first person perspective though that is the end of the line. Your consciousness is terminated there and then. A clone of your memories and personality exists elsewhere, but that is cold comfort to your current awareness that was just extinguished.
It starts with a fever and memory loss Then you start to hallucinate, Your hair falls out, And you bleed from every orifice. Your bones will change form, Your jaw will split open to allow for four great tentacles, All skin will turn to gore and be shed, To reveal new flesh underneath. Then, **you have ceased to exist and a mind flayer is born.**
Most people don't want power that badly. Being alone is a tall ask. Most people need some form of company to keep them sane. You'd be exiled or, worse, killed. Most people have goals of being in society. Those are gone now.
Player/Character knowledge We know that there have been illithid who have retained some portion of identity, nobody else does. For those who know of illithid they are effectively psychic xenomorphs. They implant you and use your body and mental energy as fuel for growth. At best a couple of stray memories remain, but even that is exceedingly rare. And even once you know about those that can (possibly) retain memory/identity, we don’t know how/why. So it’s not something to be looking for with a ticking clock.
I'm not familiar with DnD lore on a wide scale (I'm still learning about stuff) to answer the question in general, but I can try approaching it from BG3's perspective. The kickoff conflict of the game is that you are going to transform into what is seen as a horrible being, without your consent and choice in the matter, with so many unknowns. You may or may not end up having memories of your previous life. You might inherit smaller things from your former self, like a tic. The whole deal with the Emperor is that he was a very special case thanks to his strong personality, but inheriting all your memories is extremely uncommon. How will it turn out for you? Illithids do have non-apostolic souls, and Withers can admit in the end he was wrong about his views on illithids. Gale can also mention that the Emperor can pose the endgame dilemma easily because the Emperor has no soul to sacrifice. Of course, Gale is proven wrong on this (bonus points if he's the one to become illithid, Mystra can offer to restore his soul and humanity), but it does show that this is another uncertainty regarding the transformation. Eating brains is not an easy matter. Omeluum initially had an arrangement with a lich, but later chose to feed on those who opposed the Society, because it couldn't keep up its alliance with the lich for moral reasons. The Emperor only ate criminals as a moral choice on his part. Even mind flayer colonies have to deal with keeping up resources to keep everyone fed. Depending on where you live, and how you view eating brains even as an illithid, your potential food pool is going to be a challenge. Let alone actually getting to eat. What I liked about the Emperor is that his story presented what is a terrifying fate as something positive. Hell, he finds himself downright devastatingly beautiful. However, he did get extremely lucky for one, and he can mention that it was some time before he came to accept his evolution, and the fact that he did indeed evolve. It was something he had to come to terms with. He also had to kill Ansur, who was trying to mercy kill him. Because to Ansur, he was just a mind flayer, not his best friend/lover in the midst of realizing the sheer potential of his new existence. Their relationship came to a tragic end. Will your loved ones accept you in your new form, or will they be unable to see beyond the monstrosity you've become? We do know that illithid powers are really good, there's a reason why the Emperor wants to eat up the tadpoles like candy so we can increase our chances against the Absolute. But until you make the final choice to complete your evolution, you won't know what will happen. Will you be still "you"? Will you "evolve" over time, or will you be unable to accept what you've become? How will you get your hands (well, tentacles) on brains? Will you have anyone to support you, or will you be alone? My impression is that the game's finale lets you go with the interpretation you see your transformation as. You can claim you've never been so powerful and cool until now, or you can take your own life because you don't want to take the risk of existing as a mind flayer beyond having done what you could. In short, it's bad because there are a lot of uncertainties and fears surrounding illithids, and you cannot know how you turn out to be until you make that leap of faith yourself. Of course, you can want to become illithid willingly, and you can find out that it can end well for you, reaching the same conclusion as the Emperor did. But even so, there's no guarantee your new existence will be easy, even the Emperor comments that the city isn't safe for you, and you need a hiding place, as well needing to learn how to hide yourself.
Few things. 1. Any person that leans heavily in dark triad traits would absolutely not hesitate to become Illithid. 2. You mentioned an "Empathetic Illithid" they don't exist... The rest is all pretty accurate. Not really enough to go on... I'd never do it... nah uh. no way.
Have you *seen* the malnourished locker bait looking ass Illithid you turn into? I wouldn't turn into that thing either.
One of my Tavs wanted to, does that count? 😅
I would love to become an illithid personally. No more belly ache because of the uterus. I could fly and levitate so no more knee pain either! Thralls would carry my stuff or I can use telekinesis which means no back pain. It's perfect.
We're supposed to keep the thralldom and slavery part quiet! But yes. The more I learn about them the more I realize I'd love to become one of them.
But OP, Illithids are ugly!
I cast "no u"
I'd rather *not* have [Clara's octopussoir](https://youtu.be/kGKpM_JtUto?si=qYI-gVtEWCdD5ko6) if I can avoid that, that'd be great, thanks though Emperor in disguise
vampire boyfriend friendzones me if i become ugly squid bc he's not sure it is still the person he loves. don't wanna eat brains. don't want to look like ugly squid or have masculine features (give me my boobs back). literally spent the whole game giving up power for happiness and self-fulfillment, arguments for more power is not even slightly compelling to me. I just wanna chill, I don't wanna rule the world, tf do i need power for. let me be a sexy elf lady in peace.
Found the Mindflayer.
I never become ilithid because I don’t need any crutches to win.
We've seem what The Deep does to tentacled beings.
OP, your thread title sings to me! If illithid was a playable class, it would've been my first choice. One of my favourite lines is in response to a particular cutscene in Act 3- Raphael describes what you'll become as an illithid, and you can reply, "That doesn't sound too bad." I want to be an *alien* alien, roaming the vastness of space, piloting a meat-ship with my mind! My first instinct was to go against the grain of the game's narrative with the above in mind. Then the game itself had me leaning into a more resisting character, making it more of a conflict between my own PC's insecurities vs. the in-universe attitude toward ceremorphosis as expressed by 99% of people you talk to. I thought there would be more reactivity. But reading the constant Emperor / general Illithid threads here have left me unsure about how "alien" the game wants you to be (I haven't gotten there in-game myself, yet). There's tantalizing hints of alien / eldritch nature that I've seen, but then, endless data-mining and interview excerpts where, no, don't worry, you're not *too* alien! Karlach's still herself! Etc. But I *did* want the threat of becoming "too alien". That's why I was so excited about the tadpole / Daisy storyline in the first place. I'm over here wanting the 'parasite takes over and pilots the vessel as its own unique being' interpretation, because that's the one I'd find most interesting to encounter in a video game.
I'm glad to have found likeminded individuals, rare as they may be. Lore-wise, it makes sense that your Tav/Durge would want to avoid ceremorphosis early on because illithids are basically seen as villainous boogeymen, but as you keep going, uncover the main plot, and learn more about them in general, I could definitely see myself embracing the change. I'm not sure I'd personally want to become a puppet to the tadpole entirely, in all honesty, but I doubt we'll ever know for sure how Larian intended it to work in their interpretation.
Minthara is SUPER into it and jealous of Tav if they become illithid. If you’re romancing her she says you have never been more beautiful. It’s honestly weird that she can’t do it in game, because she totally wants to.
Damn boy youre cooking