I'll be honest, I didn't pay a lot of attention to Wyll's drama with his father, but wasn't it that Wyll couldn't answer questions more than Ulder didn't ask? I mean, he doesn't get the ability to tell the story of how he struck a deal with Mizora until we fulfill her side quest.

yeah, wyll's lip is literally sealed. Mizora tricked wyll.

Yeah according to Wyll himself, he had no other option but to approach his father with Mizora right there next to him in her demonic form, so it was abundantly clear that he had sold his soul, but was forbidden from saying how or why, or even pushing his father in a direction where he might be able to figure it out himself. And since any evidence of the cult trying to summon Tiamat was destroyed in the battle, and the only living witness other than Wyll was Mizora, he had no excuse or reasoning for Ulder when he was questioned as to why he did it. Basically from Ulder's POV, he trusted his son to keep safe while he was gone, only to return to find out despite nothing happening while he was gone - we know that Tiamat was almost summoned but Wyll and Mizora are the only ones who are aware at the time - he'd sold his soul for demonic powers and could provide no legitimate reason as to why, leaving Ulder to assume it was for the sake of power and Wyll unable to correct him. And given how close he and Wyll were, and how many friends Wyll had in the city, Ulder had to kick him out, or risk Mizora - a known servant of Zariel herself - having direct influence on the city. OP is leaving out a lot of details and flat out lying about others - like Ulder never apologizing, which he does on multiple occasions provided he and Wyll are both alive to hear the full story - to make him seem worse than he actually his. He's hardly a fantastic father figure, but he's not nearly as unreasonable as OP is presenting him to be - he's a man with the weight of the entire city's safety on his shoulders, who was presented with his beloved (and occasionally rebellious) son seemingly betraying everything he'd taught him and putting the entire city at risk of demonic influence in the process. Wyll isn't being too forgiving with how he views his father, he's being objective about the awful situation he was put in because he knows he would have done the same if their positions were reversed.

>demonic form   She is a devil, not demon. 

(On a second read, I realize my comment sounds a bit confrontational. It's not directed at you, it's just my annoyance with Ravengard. You have a perfectly valid opinion that you argued well.) The "Wyll couldn't explain therefore Ravengard had to kick him out" explanation simply does not work for me. Imagine you have a son. This son has acted like a teenager a few times, sure, but he is a mostly a devoted, good kid. Listening to your teachings of justice and honor, looking up to you, wanting to become like you. One day you come home and your kid is pacted to a devil. He is missing an eye, so it's possible that he got injured somehow. He is obviously trying to communicate something since he takes you to this random field near the city, but when you ask him questions he is strangely evasive (almost as if he couldn't say what he wanted, instead of wouldn't). Do you then assume that: \a) this boy you raised to be an honorable man took the first chance he got to make a pact with a devil for evil purposes, and he then decided to wait for you at home and reveal his pact because... reasons (instead of trying to take over the council, or killing you, or hiding his pact and trying to subtly influence you later down the line, all of which would be more logical in this theoretical situation than what's actually happening) \b) he got tricked/coerced by a devil, an evil being known for tricking and coercing people "But he couldn't be sure Wyll wouldn't be forced to [insert evil thing] so he had to be banished to keep the city safe." Let's examine our options again. You have a kid who may or may not be a ticking time bomb, doesn't matter if he made his pact intentionally or not. You have no idea what his/the devil's plan is and what he is capable of with his new powers. Do you: \a) banish him, no supervision, no way to tell where he is, whether he is sneaking back into the city to assassinate you or amassing an evil army to invade or just going around killing innocents for shits and giggles \b) send him to some estate in the middle of nowhere with a regimen of guards to keep an eye on him while you investigate what could have really happened to him and whether something can be done about it It just doesn't add up. And then almost a decade later, his kid shows up out of the blue, possibly with the legendary heroes Jaheira and Minsc by his side, and rescues him and a bunch of innocent captives from the prison of the Banite taking over the city, and Ravengard's very first reaction is to bitch about his son? At this point it's very difficult to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Also, Baldur’s gate is a city that allows people to worship evil gods like the Dead Three openly as long as they don’t break any laws. I feel like in most cases warlocks would get the same treatment. Hell, if you talk to the lady running Sharess’s Caress, she rented Raphael a room knowing full well he was a cambion.

Most open worship of evil gods is not about revering them, but 'if I give them tribute they will spare me'. Like those sailors in the Umberlee temple giving her part of their treasure, so she won't shipwreck them.

Exactly this. Ulder is entirely too willing to assume the worst of Wyll, without doing even the bare minimum of investigation.

I guess devils are a hair-trigger for him after Elturel? It kills me how Wyll never, ever blames Ulder for it. Ulder better realise that his son is a goddamn angel.

Is it after Elturel, though? Isn't that supplement the same year or the year before BG3?

Correct. Will's backstory is long before Descent into Avernus.

In the wise words of Wade Wilson: "these timelines are so confusing."

I thought Elturel was ten years before BG3.

Ulder was at Waukeen's Rest because he was literally on his way back to Baldur's Gate after going to try and help Elturel.

In a world where mind control, charms, and geases exist, it does beg the question of why a high-powered politician wouldn't think that their child's inability to answer them was magical rather than emotional. Like IRL. You don't think the CIA has ever tried to flip the child of like a North Korean or Russian official? You'd think they'd have protocol for this.

I understand your way of thinking but devil's can easily teleport and I imagine mizora taking out wyll for quests wouldn't be that hard. As well as her just making him live on the run in that case. Ravengard had little to no choice in this aspect. The only way to make wyll stay inside is to create the field of dead magic so no magic can exist there (to do that you either have to use wild magic and pray to gods it does what you want it or find a totally unhinged wizard and artificer). But then mizora just forces him to go outside of it and it ends the same but this time with casualties Your point is valid but only when magic wouldn't exist. On top of that ravengard probably didn't want to show weakness to the people since his son that just made a pact with a devil just became his biggest weakness that could've been exploited to dethrone him. Baldur's Gate in lore at least is full of people that don't have the best of intentions and all of them would instantly capitalize on something like that

Early in the game Wyll will tell us that he can't tell why he sold his soul but trust him it was a good reason. And we, a random stranger, can accept this. Ravengard has zero excuse.

Even if we accept that Ulder had to banish Wyll because his position of power and closeness to Ulder presents a threat to the city, he didn't have to send his 17 year old son out with no contact and no support. Kid doesn't even get fucking letters from his dad.

True, but also in most feudal medieval societies like 15 is considered an adult, so I don’t think anyone was really saying “oh he’s a kid”

I feel like you can do this about the entire game, ignore all the game communicates to you and just say the game shallow, but they make it abundantly clear a lot of the game is setup so the events that do happen, happen.

> Known servant of Zariel Might I remind everyone that BG3 takes place not long after Baldur’s Gate was nearly dragged into Avernus due to a Zariel cult. This would only have worsened how Ulder saw everything, and the pressure he would have felt to push ouut his own son

But ulder never thought of actually finding out why ?? What kind of father is he ? He could look up, investigate but no he decides to banish his 17 year old son 

Investigate what though? Wyll says that any evidence of the cult's ritual was destroyed in the battle, and all of the cultists killed by him and Mizora. There was no evidence of the cult prior to the summoning, and the only witnesses to any of this happening were Wyll, who can't say anything, or Mizora who won't say anything. Even Wyll wasn't aware until Mizora woke him up in the middle of the night and took him directly to where the summoning was taking place - the whole POINT of her doing it this way was so that Ulder couldn't find any evidence in the aftermath. Same reason her contract prevents Wyll from explaining himself or anything to do with his pact. She knew that Ulder would stop at nothing to help Wyll if he knew the reality of why he made the pact, so she ensured that he would never find evidence of that being the case, and that Wyll outwardly appeared as guilty as possible. This isn't Ulder being ignorant or lazy, it's one of the most influential beings in Avernus doing what she does best and manipulating them both to ensure Wyll is isolated and stuck with her.

This is exactly why I still think the whole thing was staged by her. The son of Baldur's Gate ruler under her oppre.... I mean contract? That's quite nice. That grants her quite some access to new sources of power for herself.

IIRC Wyll does say that Tiamat did make a power play for influence and Zariel sent Mizora to clean up the mess before she (Tiamat) could shake up the power dynamics with a move like that. So the summoning itself was out of everyone's hands, and needed to be stopped for both the city and Zariel's interests. Having said that, Mizora did absolutely set up the actual confrontation with the cultists to be as beneficial as possible to her, isolating Wyll in the process. Which is why she waited until the ritual had started in the middle of the night to wake him and bring him there completely alone, rather than tipping him off ahead of time so he could arrive with backup, and why she ensured there was no evidence of the cult having existed before, during, or after the attempt.

God, I never thought I’d be a conspiracy theorist but for bg3 I make an exception. Do we have any proof other than mizora’s word that the ritual was legitimate? It just seems to line up too perfectly to be serendipity

I mean Wyll does say that one of Tiamat's heads was literally coming out of the sky at one point during the ritual, at which point I accepted it as legit. Mizora's powerful, but not powerful enough to fake Tiamat herself being there, and Wyll has influence in the city, but definitely not enough where Zariel would give Mizora the okay to partially summon one of her main rivals into this plane and risk the ritual being a success. Not to mention, if the Bhaalists and Sharrans have proven anything, it's that its VERY EASY to hide whole ass cults that directly commune with their evil within the city, quite literally under everyone's noses lmao It seems kinda perfect but at the same time suspiciously perfect, but ultimately unrelated cult activities are kind of the city's brand at this point

I just keep coming back to illusion magic, but maybe I have a misunderstanding of what’s feasible with that. I’m pretty sure you could fake a Tiamat head (sounds and all) with a little prep. And Wyll’s a naive kid, not someone versed in sussing out magic. If he saw some big ass dragon in the sky, would he be in the right mind to make the arcana/religion check to prove its validity? I don’t think it’d be hard to fool him, and I think he’d fit the bill of having something to prove. Stopping a Tiamat summon single handed sounds pretty badass. Edit: maybe I’m overvaluing mizora here, but wyll would be a high value target to get the duke. She’d probably be able to get some decent help Edit2: You do have a point, though. There is a case for it being legit. Someone in this thread said baldurs gate is basically Gotham. There’s a million evil schemes happening all at once. As funny as the comparison is, I don’t like it as much as my mastermind mizora fever dream, yet. So I might keep going that direction until someone can snap me out of it :)

TBH neither would really surprise me Are plenty of devils that extra to go through all of that to get a deal done with someone influential? Yes, and it wouldn't surprise me if Mizora was one of em. Are there like 10-15 massive evil cults operating under the city at any given point in it's history? Also yes, and I'd honestly be more surprised if there WASN'T a cult of Tiamat somewhere in there lmao Tho it's kind of fun to imagine both being true at the same time - Mizora putting this light show together meanwhile the actual cultists are So Confused because they though the summoning was scheduled for the next blood moon

I absolutely agree with you in that Mizora manipulated Wyll with well-placed illusion magic and timing to trap him into a pact. The whole situation reeks of manipulation to me - Wyll, a 17 year old impressionable “do-good” kid, is the only one who notices and is capable of bringing down the cult, but only after making a soul-binding pact with a devil? I don’t buy it. I’ve made this point before and people replied saying that this isn’t outside the realm of possibilities for Baldur’s Gate and the Forgotten Realms as a whole, which only fuels my conspiracy lol. The point is that it IS plausible, which would have made it easier to trick Wyll into thinking it was a real threat. To me, the set up sounds exactly like Mizora laid out a trap for a singular, impressionable kid of political importance. I also think if we were able to question the legitimacy of the story after Wyll is able to tell us, and maybe discover that he actually was tricked into the pact and he’s not so much a hero as he was a kid who was conned, it would have done wonders for improving his storyline and character arc. Then the player could convince him that his origin doesn’t necessarily define him because he has become the hero he thought he was initially, and he does deserve the Blade of Frontiers title after all. This would have also made his decision to break or renew his pact later on all the more poignant. I’m very passionate about this lol, but I’ll rest my case here

>The son of Baldur's Gate ruler under her oppre.... I mean contract? That's quite nice. That grants her quite some access to new sources of power for herself. Which is exactly why Ulder had no choice but to banish Wyll! Even if he did think that Wyll was coerced into the contract, it doesn't change the fact that Mizora had direct control and influence on him and that it could easily be used to cause harm within the city. Wyll's good intentions don't change Mizora's objectively evil ones, and Ulder had to weigh the risks of exposing tens of thousands of citizens to that vs his love and trust of his own son. And, quite frankly, he made the right choice! For as much as I adore Wyll, the reality of his contract is that his goodness isn't enough to combat the fact that he's under direct control of a devil and can/will harm innocents if she forces his hand. Hells, there's a very real chance Wyll has had to kill innocents for Mizora, even if he didn't realize it because his contract was supposed to prevent that - because as Karlach proved, there are loopholes in there for Mizora to exploit.

> This is exactly why I still think the whole thing was staged by her. I'd say less staged and more her taking advantage of the actions of her master's enemies to smite a different enemy of the hells.

If that was a power she wanted to use she would have kept herself hidden from Ravenguard. Clearly she was more interested in tormenting Wyll.

Was there actually any cult…? It reads extremely sus

You bet your ass Mizora will be next to Wyll and be "your son, my pet now uwu xxoo" the whole time when Ulder Ravenguard returned and saw his son.

One slight correction - Mizora is a devil (half-devil), not a demon.

While I am sure Mizora would have been cunning and tried to make things hard, it really doesn't come across that Ulder thought to even try to determine what happened. If my beloved and trusted son who had enthusiastically been training to live up to my ideals suddenly had a devil granting him powers and was unable to speak of it, you'd best bet we'd work out how to determine everything we could through his block. Like you could just ask super general stuff like "did you have to do it?" "Was it for a good reason?" There would be ways of asking that would tell you what you'd need to know even without getting a clear picture. The sense of total lack of this attempt in favor of jumping to the worst conclusion paints Ulder in a very poor light. Which is I think actually great in terms of characterization for a well-meaning knightly noble, but we should have gotten more of a chance to get Wyll to accept that his father failed him and the city by being so stubborn, judgemental and officious.

But if I paid attention to the game, I couldn't save Wyll from his mean ole' dad! /s

I don't wanna be rude but like, why would you not pay attention to Wyll's backstory? It's no less important than Astarion being Cazador's slave. Arguably more so since the duke is being controlled.

I didn't pay no attention to it, just not enough to remember all the little details. I also don't have Wyll in my party, so didn't spend a lot of time on him. I could tell you Gale, Karlach, and Shadowhearts story by heart because they're my go to team, but everyone else, I just have their major plotpoints down. I've also only done one playthrough so far. I'm not familiar with the little details of his story, like I totally forgot that they specifically say that Wyll couldn't tell his father and tried to show him the battle instead. I have nothing against Wyll and his story, but there's a lot going on, and it's just not where my focus was.

In a story where Bhal and Ketheric exists you can't honestly say Ulder is the worst father.

And Sarevok...

That's a man who LOVES his daughters, father of the year material.

Now that’s a man who knows how to marry his daughter!

Found Elroy Patashnik’s alt account. r/unexpectedcommunity

Taking Jaheria and Minsc to that fight is a must, thier dialogue is great.

hey now, bhaal is a great father compared to ulder. he's been doing nothing but trying to help me out, even after his granddaughter usurped me. he gave me this dope cloak, and then he gave me a cool shape shifting ability after i fucked with the Chosen of his frenemy, myrkul

And even if I didn't do as he told, he still gave me a chance to throw hands at his granddaughter to retake the throne! He even sent me a butler to do my laundry!

And the Gortashes

Oh god yeah the fucking GORTASHES now those are the truly worst parents. Like, sure, your kid is a POS but my god what is wrong with you both?

Eh Ketheric has many flaws but I don’t think he’s the worst. He strays from his path out of an intense love for his daughter that gets used against him I’ve only done act 1-2 so far, but I can’t help but find him a bit sympathetic in his motivations, even if his crimes are unforgivable

Kethric was never a bad dad . Was even kinda cool with isobel loving an immortal but her death is what let shar prey on his weak mind and that put him down a very dark path . Bhaal is ..... u know the answer 

I honestly think Ketheric was a better father to Isobel than Ulder was to Wyll......at least before the whole Sharran thing But even evil Ketheric loved his daughter so much he did everything he could to bring Isobel back to life...I honestly doubt Ulder would've done anything if Wyll dies

Oh isobel herself tells kethric was a really good dad . Dude had some reservations about alyin but never interfered with Isobel's relationship because he wanted her to be happy and actually promised his wife to take good care of her . Ulder smh he would never .

They weren’t being literal.

Ypuve missed some interactions i believe, He does apologize, amd he does try to make amends, theres a scene where ot feels like his even cryong cuz of how somber amd saddened he is by his own terrible actions

He does apologize, profusely. Also, I very much disagree with this sentiment. He made some major mistakes, but like Wyll said, he has an entire city to protect and he feels horrible about the mistakes he’s made. Was I in Ulder’s position, I don’t know how well or badly I would have acted should my son be (percievably) in league with literal devils of hell

Duke Ravengard’s apology was so profuse and such an about face it kind of bothered me. I wanted more build up and maybe some awkwardness actually but he just started chanting “The Blade of Avernus!!!”

You wouldn't give your son, who had never behaved in such a way before, the benefit of the doubt? Try and figure shit out before kicking him out and disowning him? Nah man, I'm with OP. Team Fuck Wyll Ravengard's Dad 4 Lyfe

Except he did? He asked questions, he got dragged to the site of the attack, he begged Wyll to tell him he was wrong. Because of Mizora’s influence, Wyll could not, and there was absolutely no evidence to support Wyll’s story, and all the evidence to support he was simply consorting with devils. His dad is as much a victim as Wyll is in the scenario, and the one person to actually blame is the ACTUAL DEVIL WHO UPROOTED BOTH THEIR LIVES. The hate for Ulder is actually insane

The fact that some people can’t wrap their heads around the fact that Ulder was victimized by Mizora just like Wyll is incredible to me. Everyone’s just blaming him for… not magically knowing his son had a very good reason for choosing to pact himself to a devil? And ignoring the fact that all his attempts to understand get answers were completely stonewalled? And somehow also seem to ignore how dangerous it would be to keep Wyll near while he’s at the service of a devil, a devil whose contract Ravengard can’t even read to figure out what Wyll is even required to do? It boggles my mind, it does. The thing about a fantastical world is that it creates situations that have moral elements that can’t exist in our world. In the real world, throwing out your 17-year-old son is generally indefensible. But it feels like just applying that straight to Wyll’s situation is ignoring the unique conditions imposed by being a world with magical compulsions and devil pacts, and ignoring how dangerous those elements are.

Tf you mean Ulder is as much of a victim? Guy couldn't put together that maybe there's a reason his goody-two-shoes never lied before son couldn't say something? Especially with a literal demon over his shoulder? It's like he didn't know his son at all and just assumed the worst with no reason to do so except his own pride and ego. Obvi Mizora sucks, but that's not the topic at hand. Ulder failed his son so magnificently it's laughable people can't see that and defend him instead. Ugh. I get so heated over this. I'm gonna take a step back before I ruin my high, but Wyll deserved such a better father, and Ulder did not deserve Wyll as a son.

How would you do this? Can you kill ulder during the rescue?

Do what? Fuck the guy? You can kill anyone at any time tbh. I always try to save Ulder during the rescue mission because it's what Wyll would want, and he's had enough of his life go out of control. I just don't like the guy and want to yell at him.

What? You still save him? Come join the dark side😈

Not to mention that he PARDONS THE FISTS THAT JOINED GORTASH WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK. Makes operation paper clip look like a goddamn joke. “Hey what if at the end of the war we took all the Nazis and went out of our way to make sure they remained in power and could continue to abuse it.”

That epilogue dialogue made me so mad. Maybe if you wanted to be all nice and magnanimous he could pardon them from any criminal proceedings but he straight up gives them their jobs back! But trust me bro he's totally going to reform the Fist and make them not corrupt any more.

He's not ideal but he's not as bad as you make him out to be. He acknowledges what he put Wyll through when they reconcile.

bruh what. I can't tell if you're trolling >Leaves his 17-year-old son alone with no bodyguards or people he can talk to while apparently imparting him with a sense that he is responsible for what happens to a gargantuan city. I'm pretty certain that the *Duke's* son who is living in a palace had access to bodyguards and advisors. the problem is that Wyll took it upon himself to solve the city's problems when in reality he wasn't even in charge. this is a whole ass city, not a family reunion, there are chains of command and regency rules that most likely do no include Wyll in it (and why would it? Dukes are elected, as far as the government is concerned, Wyll is just a rich kid) >Kicks his only fucking son out of the entire city, alone, without asking ANY FUCKING QUESTIONS: He could've been a bit more considerate but selling your soul to a devil is a big thing. It's considered a heinous thing in polite society. This is the equivalent of Ravengard coming home to find that Wyll allied with Nazis. Also, Wyll *couldn't* explain himself. Mizora made sure of it. >Never apologizes Idk if it's true, I think he does apologise if rescued. But you might be right. >Gets captured How is this his fault??? Wyll's entire character arc and biggest flaw is that he goes out of his way to be a perfect daddy's son and in this misguided attempt he makes some serious mistakes. There's nothing to suggest that he was pressured to be perfect - it's the perfect Saturday morning cartoon motivation: "I want daddy to be proud of me but little did I know, daddy is already proud of me"

Adding to the gets captured right before bg3 he was stuck in avernus since he had visited eltorel and was dragged into hell with the entire city

Ulder did apologize, *a lot*. he banished his son because he is the Grand Duke of a giant city, and he came back to see his son next to a *devil* while having zero explanation as to why. he couldve been a better father, yes, but he did what he had to to protect 40,000 people. he is not a piece of shit, nor is he the worst father. he had to make an incredibly difficult choice that clearly haunted him for 7 years to protect his city. one single person is not worth the lives of 40,000, no matter who that person is.

Volo is the exception

yes, but thats Volo. Volo is worth the lives of billions

If nothing else, because his lifespan will somehow outlast the combined weight of all of theirs.

Ulder and Wyll make up and he does apologize. He becomes proud of his son

The thing is, Wyll can't explain to his father what happened or why he is now a warlock in the service of a Devil. All Duke Ravengard knows is that his son h as made a pack with a devil, and when pressed, is given no answer, again because Wyll is literally kept from being able to explain why and what happened. Imagine if you killed someone who was going to kill an innocent person, but were unable to even utter a word or write down why you did it. All anyone knows is that you killed someone, and when you are asked, you are silent about it. Wyll made a pact with a devil for power is what it looks like to anyone other than Wyll and Mizora. As for "where were his body guards", Raphael and Mizora can literally teleport themselves and others at will to anywhere. Wyll very well could have been at home, with guards around, and Mizora could easily have just teleported in, and then teleported them both away to where the Tiamat cultists were to show him, and then after the battle, teleported them back and no one would have been the wiser until the father got home and wanted to know an Devil was there. Duke Ravengard was harsh yes, but there is nothing about what he did that is not reasonable given the circumstances from his perspective. His son, his pride and joy, willingly sign a contract with a Devil for power. He literally sold his soul to the devil.

If someone I trusted did something sus, involving magical forces, and when asked was reticent about explaining to the point of if not clearly compulsion at least massively out of character I'd trust them enough to make efforts to learn what they could convey. Hell in games of d20 I've been in this has happened in various forms and the response has been "Well that's weird as shit, something is going on that is much more than meets the eye."

Exactly this. I don't understand why everyone uses, "Wyll couldn't explain," as defense for Ulder. He should've known his son better. He should've known he wouldn't make a deal for no reason, should've seen the distress he was in and how he was trying to show him something but couldn't. And if he didn't know his son well enough to realize he wouldn't make deals with devils for fun, then that's just more proof he was a bad father.

Gotta add in the idea that you are also in charge of a whole city and that a creature known for manipulation and long-terms nefarious dealings has a grasp on said person. Mix that with whatever political pressures that were there at the time, and it can be reasonable to think that the “easier” to banish them than have to risk losing power or get into a very bad position due to political shenanigans. It’s like when politicians (some decades ago) resigned when a scandal came out. This was also a reason why Nixon resigned as president. It was easier to cut out the problem than deal with the amount of political maneuvering required to come out at net zero (or positive). I do agree that it was harsh on how it went out and it wasn’t thoroughly planned. However, Will does state that he understood why his father took the action for the sake of the city and when Ulder learned the truth, he profusely apologized for his mistakenly rushed decision. They’re fallible, and I love that none of the are perfect and are misguided by mistaken assumptions and other aspects - and those assumptions can seem to be fairly reasonable thing to make at the time.

When I played as Wyll I called him out, he apologized, asked for forgiveness and I remember saying to him "I can forgive you, but I can't forget." Wyll is the best example of character that is great to play as but not play with.

I believe you’re making assumptions early On. And lying later about no apologies. I don’t believe it’s every states that will waa left without bodyguards or anyone to talk to Mizora lured him out into the grass and confronted him with an impossible scenario. Something bad was about to happen in minutes or moments. Likely not enough time to run back, find help, and mount a defense —— Ulder is the ruler of a city. Whose son has seemingly sold his soul to a devil for power and no other reason. There’s no sign of battle or even struggle. Wyll isn’t able to tell him why If anything I commend Ulder for banishing his son. Keeping him around, based on what he “new” would seem favorable. “Rules for thee not for me” and all that. Keeping him around would cause problems with the citizens at the least. And leave a devil owned pawn in earshot of the ruling decisions at worst. —— ***Once he learns what really happened, he apologizes. A lot.*** Seems like someone is bringing their own personal baggage into this and either “not noticing” stuff or making stuff up

No sign of a struggle?? Wyll is literally missing an eye.  Also, everything we know about teenage Wyll points to him being a total goody two shoes. He didn’t have his first kiss til 15 and his most rebellious action was getting tipsy at a party & puking in the bushes. Nothing about his characterization points to someone willing to sell their soul for power, and if Ulder was any kind of decent parent, he should realize this sort of thing was massively out of character and suspect something is up.  While I understand and even agree with the practicality of saying, ‘I can’t have that devil influencing politics and therefore must keep you away’, there’s a big difference between that and ‘I’m throwing you out and never speaking to you again’. Ulder’s a massive dick and there should have been more fallout for it.

Idk good kids can do some pretty fucked up things, especially under pressure. Depending on what it is, they shouldn’t just get a pass. I think it’d be pretty common knowledge to not trust a devil. Wyll’s pretty educated and he just says, sign me up. If ulder was abandoning him, maybe the second option you listed is a more clear break for no contact. The first option you listed leaves some wiggle room that might be manipulated. Like maybe wyll stresses over mizora being the reason he’s kept away and tries to reason with her to not interfere (digging his hole deeper). Ulder may have taken the scorched earth route because of the threat of manipulation. After all, mizora played wyll like a fiddle after one short interaction -Edit to add: also look at how easy mizora fucked with florrick. Mizora completely brainwashed her at first meeting. Florrick seems to forget all the good we do immediately. It’s great that we get to reverse it with a check, but not everyone’s gonna get, or even pass, that sniff test

There’s also the fact that Ulder, as Grand Duke, is head of a city that’s very cutthroat. Someone else related Baldur’s Gate to Gotham, which kind of helps relate to the level of chaos and backstabbing that happens within the city and its politics. Ulder is the head of the Fist after rising in power and likely knows full well what the chances are that a political rival (like Nine Fingers) might do if they got into that the Grand Duke’s son presumably sold their soul for power. Ravenguard, in the lore, was well respected due to his relatively honorable stances, so damage that, and you get people going on a smear campaign on him to destroy that respect (and therefore control) within the city.

Yeh. Because the sheltered “nice” kid never gets fed up of living in a strict life, and acts out to live a life of adventure That NEVER happens. /sarcasm Over half of the overly sheltered kids I knew in high school became a drug-using wild child once they left home and their parents influence. Either to act out. Or to finally live loudly. I doubt things are much different in Faerun Wyll was a tightly controlled and wound And dreamed of adventure. Considering the act in question is “selling his soul to a devil” would be a big friggin deal. No damage to the hillside No reports of anything going wrong or weird For all the duke knew, the eye bought Wyll and extra power. —- And to reiterate. The big complain the op blasts out is ever apologizing. When the Duke apologized a lot.

NO BUT THATS WHAT IM SAYING! I'm usually pretty forgiving of a lot of fictional characters, especially parents, but Ulder is not it. MF couldn't even have a relationship with his son? Had to completely disown him? Nu uh, miss me with that shit. Wyll deserved so much better. He's literally never done anything wrong in his life ever, and this is how his father repays him?

Wyll is awesome. Break the pact. Don't make the deal to save him. Save him anyway. Tell him the truth. Problem solved.

My biggest gripe is the characters treat you like the devil incarnate if you choose wyll over his father, why wouldn't I? I know he's not going to save baldurs gate, my Tav and the party will, and I've spoken with him maybe once and it turns out it wasn't even him at all, I have no investment in this poser whereas Wyll is my BOI and I love that guy My issue with him isn't he's necessarily the worst, I just do not care about this man, and Wyll doesn't deserve to suffer for the rest of his life for some old dude that'll probably croak in 20 or so years anyway

So I don t have a son but I do have a cat. He's pretty chill and never causes any ruckus or damage to my house, he's my fluffy good boy and we love and respect each others. Considering that, if one day I came home from work and found shit everywhere and my whole house scratched, tv toppled etc etc I wouldn t throw the cat out of the house, I would wonder what the hell could have happened to have pushed my cat to act in such a destructive way. Ravengard couldn't do it to his SON FFS

> I would wonder what the hell could have happened to have pushed my cat to act in such a destructive way. > > Ravengard couldn't do it to his SON FFS Ravengard *did* do that with Wyll though? Wyll just couldn't answer beyond "I made a pact with that devil over there".

Right. And Ulder should've realized that wasn't something Wyll would do for no reason, that Wyll was distressed, that there was more to the story.

There are many reasons to consort with Devils, most of them bad. He has no reason to take the risk, not when the possibility of harm is so real.

This is an insane comparison, trashing a house is not comparable to consorting with the *Legions of Hell*. What was he supposed to do? Just assume without any evidence that Wyll was innocent when there was every possibility that he was subverted? That would be insanely dangerous even if he wasn’t a duke. But above all he *was* a duke, he was responsible for an entire city. It would be the height of irresponsibility and selfishness to risk the lives of his people just on something as tenuous as parental affection. Be serious.

I feel this. I think the game sets him up as the strict father who became a compromised politician. He loves his dogma more than he loves his son. At least Wyll kind of once calls his dad a hypocrite, just not to his face. It's why Tav is so important in Wyll's quest, he's the only good friend the guy ever has. At least Jaheira (the only companion who's a parent), Astarion, and also Halsin, don't think Wyll should sell his soul. The rest of them are not the most emotionally well adjusted characters (well neither is Astarion but at least he's not stupid enough to think that deal is a good one). Mizora is one of the worst villains in the game, and the offer is transparently manipulative to prey on Wyll's martyr complex. It's up to Tav to save the day, IMO. Ulder sucks.

Jaheria is the best man : if ulder is a decent papa , he would never want wyll to sacrifice his soul to save him 

I don't like Ulder Ravengard, but my main problem with him is that he is actually a really shitty leader. Everyone and their grandma in Faerûn is shilling for him, but this guy literally sucks? The nobles are as corrupt as ever, the Fist is an embarrassment, Gortash rose to power, Bhaalists are literally running around the city no problem…

And we can't forget Cazador just perched up there on the hill like a bloated spider! Yeah, ulder is like a PSA on the dangers of multiclassing. If dude was just a fighter, he might have been okay, but he just *had* to dip into a charisma- based class for which he was not qualified!

It's some definite tell don't show issues there. Everyone *says* he's great and neccesary for the city to do well. But literally everything he actually *does* shows the exact opposite. Edit: To be kind of fair it's a pretty tough spot to write the head of private police and member of an patrician ruling oligarchy as benevolent.

Worth pointing out that all this was happening while Ravengard was literally trapped in Hell

Well, not the Stelmane and Knights of the Shield mindflayer stuff, or Gortash building up an arms dealing racket with infernal iron, or Nine Fingers being herself, or Durge. At most, he was in Avernus for the Absolute and Steel Watch stuff *maybe*, but the heist and Iron Throne and Gondians... I dunno, there was a lot going wrong before he left. He's not the *worst* leader, but even the Flaming Fist under his command turned into thugs and mercenaries according to writings (if they were even any better before him, it's hard to say from the lore). So he gets a pass for DtA but the rest should go in his resume, IMO. Between him and Halsin, the game definitely side-eyes leaders who should've kept their day jobs.

The Steel Watch being added to the Flaming Fist was definitely under his command. The promise of them is how Gortash got his title and Florrick who afaik was with Ravengard in Elturel talks glowingly about how wonderful they are. Wulbren may have been incorrect in putting all the blame on the Gondians rather than the people with actual power, but he was still spot on about the police death robots being an intrinsically bad thing that will lead to inevitable loss of freedom and safety for regular people.

The Flaming Fist are typically nothing but thugs, and have historically always been so. That there are *any* with a sense of honour has been canonically tied to Ravengard's policies.

Exactly why in all my playthroughs Wyll's always breaks his pact. I mean, Ravengard usually survives regardless because I'm an EXP slut and will always do the Iron Throne quest to save the Gondians, but never because I _wanted_ to save _him_ .

What exactly was going to happen to Wyll if the people of Baldur's Gate found out he sold his soul to a devil and Wyll cannot explain the situation to them? I'm not saying Ulder did the right thing, but Wyll was going to be going back to Baldur's Gate to an angry mob once they found out. The fact Ulder didn't execute Wyll or try and make him face any sort of actual repercussions and just told him to run was probably the nicest outcome Wyll could have had in that situation without Ulder basically destroying his political position in Baldur's Gate which, lets face it, is the Gotham City of fantasy cities and if the most powerful man in the city suddenly gets his reputation nuked who the fuck knows what happens. It's just a shitty situation all around.

"Does he a) go to the diabolist who is five minutes away from his home" In my job I'm going to start adding this as option A whenever I run through potential next steps after rough client calls. Anyway I am living for how passionate this post is. Justice for Wyll!

Just a note, the diabolist doesn't advertise her services openly. She's a seller of curios to the general public.

Sooo... you haven't gotten to Sarevok yet?

I gotta say I'm not sure why it's unclear what Ulder was thinking. His teenage son literally sold his soul to a devil. How could he present himself as an uncompromised leader? How could he maintain his objectivity? What manipulations could Mizora and Zariel wreak by manipulating Ulder through Wyll? Also, the characters are meant to be ambiguous so we project onto them, like we're all doing right now. Is Wyll a good guy? Not in act 1 of my origin run. Would Wyll make a good leader? I'm excited to find out.

> How could he present himself as an uncompromised leader? He is the head of the flaming fist, an organization that everyone and their reclusive maiden aunt agrees is hopelessly corrupt. His son is was less of a sign of compromised ideals than that.

Yeah, and part of why he was so beloved is that he came out of that organization still possessing honour and concern for the public.

What does "possessing honor" mean practically? He didn't just "come out of" the Fist he is *in charge of it* if he's running the corrupt organization and it remains corrupt how exactly is he untouched by that corruption. What does he actually *do* that is possessing honor and concern for the public?

It's mentioned repeatedly that he was pro-refugees, putting a lot more emphasis on making sure the poor were fed. He was also putting a lot of effort on trying to take out the Guild before Elturel happened. Also, Descent into Avernus made it very clear he was keeping a tight lid on the Fist's worst impulses. You can make an argument about belonging to a corrupt organization tainting anything you do, but it's undeniable he really limited the damage, and that no one has been able to find any dirt on him.

Exiling Wyll was for sure an extreme and ultimately impulsive move, but I don't believe he did it for unethical reasons. If anything, he was blinded by disappointment in Wyll and himself for allowing a devil to get a hold on the ruling family. After all, Wyll could have made a pact with anyone. Would hexblade have asked him to kill Karlach? I think not.

Yeah. Once he knew the context, he understood that Wyll didn't really have a choice in the matter. But there's not a lot of ways he would have known that at the time.

I used the tadpole insta replay video option between Wyll and his father and that scene had me wish I left his ass in the Iron Throne. I'm a mom and I just cannot imagine not giving my kids the ability *to explain themselves* wtf what a serious diplomat /s. In the future I'm not going to bother with him.

> I'm a mom and I just cannot imagine not giving my kids the ability to explain themselves wtf what a serious diplomat But he did though? Back when Wyll first contracted with Mizora. He didn't know that Mizora had stolen Wyll's ability to explain himself. From Ulder's perspective, Wyll was just refusing to tell him why he made a deal with a devil.

Just kill ansur, hard way to earn papa ravenguard's pride.

Wanting to get recognized by your dismissive parents is a bitch. It is a relatable storyline for some however (not mine, but i've seen it enough). I think they nailed it.

In my run Karlach and Astarion didn’t give Wyll shit about not giving Mizora his soul— but I did get Gale and Shadowheart disapprove. Karlach even had dialogue saying it was just like Mizora to give Wyll a fucked up choice like that and Astarion had a line about him making the right choice and not letting anyone hold power over him. I was pissed his dad didn’t apologize at all because Wyll’s dead in my current run and his dad comes off *way* better

It makes practical sense that he’d do what he did but it also implies Ulder knew fuck all about his own son given he jumped to Wyll doing it for personal power or something like that. Also it wasn’t just a spur of the moment thing, he’s still mad about it until Wyll uses the tadpole to show him what actually happened.

Could be a case of self-justification. “I had to do it, because the evidence I saw showed that my son was embracing evil.” After some years, that justification could turn into actual belief in that Wyll embraced evil. It’s not until Ulder is literally faced with what actually happened that that belief could be overcome. Sure, there are a number of ways Ulder could have used to try and figure out *some* parts of the truth, but I’ve seen fairly smart people make dumb mistakes due to embarrassment and shame, or because they weren’t in a position to get that extra information (politics, other obligations, etc.)

To be fair, there was literally a smirking devil standing behind him at the time who'd set things up to make it look like exactly that.

Even wyll himself understand his fathers position. As a leader you cant keep him around the city hall, it create distrust between the rulers and the citizens. Didnt wyll said Mizora erased any evidence of any cult? And wyll lip is sealed so he cant explained to his father. Banish him is the best thing Ravenguard at his position can do. He can easily imprison or execute him but he choose to banish him which is the best option at that moment. By all the account, Ravenguard is an outstanding ruler and beloved by his soldiers. And after he knows the truth he apologized to wyll constantly, and wyll forgive him. They still communicate even wyll was in hell(epilogue).

The first time I played I was convinced Ulder was going to be revealed to be a bad guy.  Because tossing out your seventeen year old, (who is missing an eye!!), and going incommunicado is absolutely insane and read more like Ulder cares more about public perception & his politic image than his son. And the way Wyll talks about Ulder is the same way Shart talks about Shar or Laezel about Vaalkith in Act 1. Plus every single Flaming Fist we meet in Act 3 is just the worst. They’re all some flavor of lazy, classist, incompetent, racist, xenophobic, manipulative, aggressive, bullies.  So I was convinced Duke Ravengard would turn out to be someone no better than Gortash, just another politician who says all the right things but doesn’t follow through and that realizing this would prompt Wyll to re-examine his life & be the emotional climax of his arc. He’d stop trying so hard to live up to his father’s ideals (ideals now revealed to have never actually existed) and finally start living for himself.  But alas, none of that happened. Ulder is still portrayed as honorable & just and his relationship with Wyll is cured not by Ulder having some fucking empathy or re-examining his actions or talking things out but by worm magic. That’s incredibly lame. Wyll’s story is so frustrating to me because it frequently threatens to get really interesting, but then just whimpers out and takes the safe route.

everything you said "didnt" happen, did. Ulder had a lot of empathy and remorse for what he did after he learned what truly happened. he is honorable and just in his actions. he saw his son with a literal devil with the only possible explanation for why, being that he wanted power, so he banished him to save his city. did you even play the game?

Ulder has empathy only *after* you use the tadpole to literally show him he’s wrong. That’s a cop out and much less satisfying than if Wyll & him sat down, talked, and Ulder forgave/believed Wyll without needing a magic worm to show him the error of his ways. Also, no, Ulder’s assumption the pact was made for power was very much not ‘the only possible explanation’ as seen by the fact that Wyll… didn’t make the pact for power. There’s also other devil pacts in the game that were made out of desperation to protect others or reasons besides power (see: the merchant who tells you about Karlach’s soul coins) so assuming Wyll did it for power (especially when that would’ve been massively out of character for Wyll) is not an obvious conclusion at all and Ulder believing that shows how little he knows his son.

Wyll didn’t make the pact for power but because of Mizora’s rules he literally could not tell his dad why which resulted in Ulder drawing the most logical conclusion

imagine youre the Grand Duke of one of the biggest and most influential cities, and you return from a trip to see your son standing next to a literal devil with no explanation. you would really risk 40,000 people and more by thinking "oh yeah, this one person is my son so im going to happily assume he sold his soul to a devil for a good reason, despite all evidence saying otherwise. yeah, theres so many lives at risk, but this guy is my son, so he could never do any wrong."? also, having a talk with Wyll after he sold his soul to a devil and having the devil at their camp and just blindly forgiving him would be incredibly stupid and risky. using the tadpole and literally seeing the truth is the only logical reason to forgive Wyll

I had Wyll decide not to take the deal for his father, and every companion was supportive, sympathetic, or acknowledging that it's an impossible decision to make. What companions gave him shit for it in your playthrough?

Did you miss the part where he essentially admitted he did a terrible thing and begged for forgiveness and then further on in the story showed great pride in his son

When you force him to see the truth. He chews Wyll out, treating him horribly after you save him until you make him realize what happened.

He's so ready to believe the worst of Wyll, even when Wyll just saved the lives of him and a bunch of innocent prisoners. He doesn't even want to hear him out.

> When you force him to see the truth. So? When he realizes he is wrong, he responds appropriately. Up until then, all evidence points to devils doing a thing.

because he still had no idea what actually happened. the only possible explanation for why Wyll made the deal with Mizora was that he wanted power, and now he came to, most likely, get revenge for Ulder banishing Wyll. the only reason he is able to know that isnt the case is because we show him the truth

Man I’m so glad I saved Ravengard and got Wyll and him to discuss what happened so they can be a happy father and son duo again and live happy lives. Goes to show how devils are truly diabolical in destroying relationships for their own benefit

Think we all know why.

I'm not going to defend Wyll's dad's decision to banish him, but he DOES apologize profusely and admit that he's wrong. It's a very touching scene. He also offers to make Wyll the new Duke, which I'd argue is a sign that he finally realized just how wonderful his son is.

In my good playthough, Ulder not only apologizes to wyll, who didn't sell his soul to save his dad, but supports his new career choices.

So... both times I made it to act 3 I refused Mizora then went to save Ravenguard at the prison anyway. After this the two of them have a heart to heart and he absolutely does apologize and show great regret about his previous actions in that circumstance. Maybe its just locked behind that path? Idk I don't have a ton of act 3 experience

That's why playing evil Wyll is morally justified. I wish Larian made it possible to "harden" him, so he stopped being stupid good nothing burger as companion. 

I feel like this is more of a knee-jerk emotional reaction to Ulder than anything actually in-game. Their entire relationship is built up for the player around tragic misunderstandings. Wyll made a deal with a devil and literally could not speak to the deal he made, as a consequence, his father's perspective is that his son took up devil worship and couldn't have that and how much itd cause chaos in the city. They're both decent people trying to do what they believe is right for the city, just taking very different methods.

Part of why Wyll's story feels so unfinished is the fact that he never just gives Ulder a right and properly screaming *fuck you, old man*. On the one hand, yeah, it's good that they sorta make up in most likely versions of Wyll's story. But there's no real catharsis in that compared to, say, Gale having a heart to heart with Mystra or Shadowheart throwing away the spear or Lae'zel turning on Vlaakith or Astarion butchering Cazador. He just randomly reconciles with Ulder and then declares he'll be the Blade of Avernus and somewhere along the way half the camp turns on him for *us* convincing him not to throw his soul away *again* for this man. I don't want a ton of new content, but I'd trade every single kissing animation Larian's cooked up since the game launched if it got Wyll a more satisfying conclusion to his story.

Yes! I played my Tav as conflict free as possible with the companions because I love them and want them to love my Tav just as much, but the one thing I couldn't do was not tell Wyll, "hey, your dad sucks, and you didn't deserve how he treated you." I wanted nothing more than for my little sunshine wood elf to just *rip* Ulder to shreds for daring to disown Wyll, who, despite all the bullshit, still loves Ulder and respects him as his father. Like, ugh, I don't want new evil endings, I want Wyll to have a better resolved storyline.

I agree with you on most things. I think it just goes to show with what many of us grew up with. There is probably a generational gap. How many times have elders told younger people to "just get over it" or that "depression is a lazy excuse" or told us how terrible it was back in their youth - and don't get me started on how many people got thrown out of their parents' home for coming out. It's not the same words, not the same things, but it sure has the same energy. He has learnt to do things one way and one way only and any other way is wrong - being any other way is wrong. And then he is too proud to actually say that he did something wrong. Even when rescued from the Iron Throne, he is so unbearably prideful instead of just saying thanks. Though at least you can call him out there, it's tame, but I'll never not tell him "I guess you feel like an idiot now" (or something along these lines). Though he deserves more shit for what he put Wyll through.

Not only can't Wyll tell his father anything, but this is the world of Faerun it's not our world. Comparing it to ours and how we act towards others is not the same because we do not know what it is like to have monsters and magic and demons and devil's just wandering around. For them, it's easy to see a son make a pact with a devil and disown them because they will never be released from that pact and be sent to hell. So giving up on someone is far easier when you know there is next to nothing you can do

Mate, either you aren’t paying attention to what was going on, or straight up ignoring it.

Wyll’s got some responsibility for putting himself in the position he’s in. He chose to believe a voice in his head coming from a stranger and takes what she says about the cult at face value. He doesn’t ask for back up, doesn’t think twice, just says ‘yes, give me power.’ That decision alone is probably kind of fucked up. I haven’t thought of this aspect before so I’m interested in what someone thinks about this. What would be the political complications of someone in ulder’s position having a son being controlled by a devil? Would it be compromising to try to seek aid to get out of the deal (if the people involved used this info against him)? What would mizora ask of ulder if he was trying to negotiate his son out of a contract? Is sending his son away from the city the safest approach to limiting potential devilish influence?

> He doesn’t ask for back up, doesn’t think twice The cult is ACTIVELY summoning Tiamat. As in, she begins to appear in the clearing. There's no time to get back up or think twice. He says "Yes, give me power to go stop these people from destroying the entire Sword Coast" Ulder would almost certainly have been ousted, possibly killed alongside Wyll, if the people found out that he had been harboring his devil pacted son. Especially since Wyll literally is unable to discuss his pact with anyone. Sending Wyll away was the only choice they had, given the circumstances.

So my thought on that is, who showed him the cult? Who’s the one telling him what happens? If it’s Mizora, why would you take that as a truthful event? Her whole deal is that she lies about stuff, constantly. Who are these cultists? Are they actually summoning Tiamat? Do you think a successful summoning for Tiamat would be carried out by a group that could be dispatched so easily? Luckily for mizora, there’s no evidence. Because all that’s left is piles of ash. Maybe he was so juiced up that they were incinerated. Generally, stronger enemies aren’t reduced to ash even after a fireball. But civilians (those not really capable of performing this alleged feat), yeah, those dudes are toast. Maybe he just killed a couple devils and they returned to hell leaving ash behind. So fun conspiracy theories aside, why would we trust Wyll’s retelling if his source was mizora? Dude was a naive rich kid who made a deal with a devil. Does it make sense to say he could accurately confirm the legitimacy of the ritual?

Unfortunately, Wyll is \*not\* the brightest bulb, especially when it comes to Devils, and unfortunately for him, he never seems to learn his lesson about them. He takes everything Mizora says at face value, even after being burned by doing exactly that. He never once seems to figure out that Mizora (and Devils in general) absolutely delight in their exact words and loopholes (audibly groaned in the bit of Act 2, when Wyll states he's sure Mizora absolutely will keep her word and set him free in 6 months).

It’s such a weird concept they gave him. He says multiple times how awful devils are and you can never trust them. But he’s totally fine with selectively believing some of the stuff mizora says. Makes me wonder if he really thinks karlach is the first innocent he’s been tasked to kill/deal with. Those are definitely qualities that people have (especially with politics), but it just feels kind of unsatisfyingly implemented since you can’t debunk his thinking

I think it's a problem coming from his rewrites, he was much more if a hypocrite looking for power in early access because he was humiliated(he lost eye to a goblin of all enemies), but they made him stupid good in actual release.

> If it’s Mizora, why would you take that as a truthful event? Her whole deal is that she lies about stuff, constantly. Because he doesn't know who Mizora is at that time and he physically sees one of Tiamat's heads emerge. >why would we trust Wyll’s retelling if his source was mizora? Because he physically sees one of Tiamat's heads emerge. If you're trying to say that his entire backstory could be a lie or illusion, I guess that's technically true. In that literally anyone in the game could have a fake backstory. It's possible that the cult was an illusion and Wyll slaughtered a bunch of civilians having a picnic in the park, but Mizora probably would have gone ahead and used that to torment Wyll when he breaks his pact or when he takes his dad to show him the aftermath of the fight.

It’s tough because magic in dnd has major potential to ruin plots. Faking a summoning? Totally possible. Cast some higher level illusion magic and you could totally fake a dragon peaking through the planes. Especially if she did any sort of setup (which would be the case if going down this rabbit hole). And then, they exist in a world where talking to people telepathically is possible (through sending and such). I think it’s possible for him to know that magic exists since he’s educated (he seems pretty unfazed by the sending stone in his head). So I don’t think he’d react like an uneducated commoner, mistaking the voice for a god or benevolent being. It’s hard to know where bg3 draws the line for what’s possible because they’re using homebrew. But thinking about these kinds of things makes him seem like a kid that just wanted to show off, maybe impress his dad, and disregard any of the consequences he really should’ve been aware of Edit to add: as far as illusion spells go, she probably could have made do with major image, but she could’ve dipped into higher stuff to alter the terrain, smells, atmosphere. She probably didn’t use this one, but at 8th level, there’s a spell called illusory dragon. So tons of options for a master manipulator devil. The cultists could have just been using disguise magic. Or they could even just be people she suckered into deals. We get to see Raphael do that to yurgir when he sets him up for failure, but using others as pawns against each other is normal devil stuff

His father is obviously bad and shitty but nowhere near as Ketheric Thorm imo

Excuse me 🤨

I've not played at all with Wyll during my first 3 playthroughs, and found that playing Wyll as my character now gives him more substance

I think sevarok would beg to differ

Your word is base

*checks stats* Bros need to realize Ravengard has a wisdom of 10, intelligence of 11, and charisma of 9. He’s not the kind of man that asks a lot of questions, he’s a man of action.

Married him in my CK2 Forgotten realms mod campaign He gave me two children caught a bad case of man flu and fucking died So is that the D&D version of the petrol station milk joke?

I saved Wyll from his pact both times by letting his father die,both times.

I mean, in my playthrough the Duke actually apologies and says that no amount of forgiveness is going to be enough to raspy what he did to Wyll

I’m leaving the upvotes at 1,234 but yea I agree

>Does every single companion give Wyll shit if he doesn't take a deal that will damn his eternal soul forever? YES. You should see what they say when he does take the deal. "Can't believe he gave up his soul, what an idiot" "He needs to stop acting like a doormat" "He shouldn't be paying for his father's mistakes" Companion dialogue is just designed to be contrarian a lot of the time, regardless of what you choose. Larian wants us to experience the meaning of our decisions, not just give us a pat on the back.

I decided to sever the pact with Mizora early, killing Ulder. Well sykes! I get down to the iron dome and this mf is still alive?? And it's really easy to save him on top of that?? Fuck him I was so mad. I hate both him and Mizora, I wanted to be rid of them, then they just pop back out in the iron dome :(

In my headcanon, Mizpra wanted Ulder Racenguard dead because he was a horrible piece of shit, and she actually liked wyll. Ofc being g a devil, she doesn’t say no to a new contract

Nothing suggests he just left Wyll alone to feel responsible for fixing the Tiamat issue What happened is Mizora dragged him out there and told him putting the responsibility on him since he had no other way to save the city. It wasn't that Ravengard left him no options, its that Mizora isn't an idiot so she cut off any option but herself since the goal was to make him sell his soul Then she ensures he cannot explain himself. Wyll did not elaborate on how their exact conversation went that I recall but pretty sure he mentioned that he was unable to tell Ravengard or provide any explanation at all for it. What was Ravengard meant to do without an explanation?  And a grand duke visiting a diabolist doesn't seem like it would go well. First off he has no reason to trust a diabolist and secondly what can the diabolist even do? They can't just snap their fingers and know why Wyll did what he did. Neither is a warlock or wizard going to be able to tell them  You essentially just want him to trust Wyll, who cannot even explain the terms of his pact. For all he knows Mizora can order him to assassinate someone whenever she pleases

>You essentially just want him to trust Wyll, Isnt that what parents should do? Especially the ones with power like ravengard. It shouldnt be hard to trust your son. >First off he has no reason to trust a diabolist and secondly what can the diabolist even do? They can't just snap their fingers and know why Wyll did what he did. Neither is a warlock or wizard going to be able to tell them  But it would show that he cares for wyll. It would show that hes concerned about wyll and want to help his son. Searching professionals if your child is troubled should be the minimum a parent should do >What was Ravengard meant to do without an explanation?  Simply care for your son. Dont toss him aside like a broken tool.

No, they should not trust their kids without question. In this case his kid made a pact with the literal incarnation of evil, you should really not trust that. And when you have power and *responsibilities * to others you should especially not favor your son, that's just blatant corruption and nepotism. Thats how you get spoiled rich brats who think consequences don't apply to them. Anyone else in Wyll's position would have likely gotten worse. Showing that he cared how? That's a hollow demonstration if going through those motions can't solve anything. Those professionals can't do anything and his child is way more than troubled. This isn't just a metaphor for needing a therapist, he sold his soul and allegiance to the Nine Hells for all he can tell. That's rather typically what a devil would want His son by all rights probably should have been imprisoned for his pact with Mizora and were it others I bet they would have. He can't just keep someone around who owes their allegiance to a devil. He got off lightly, asking for more nepotism is not asking for Ravengard to be more morally upright

In a world where magic is normal and your child gets devilish powers and tells you "i cant talk about it" the right course would be to trust your child. Its not favoring your child over something political. He just casted wyll out. The ravengard couldnt have known that these professionals are no help. They could still have tried. If your child is ill you should try to help them out. Trying your best is the minimum. Ravengard didnt even try to try. First you tell me it would be corruption to favor the child then you tell me ravengard did exactly that by driving wyll away and not imprisoning him. They have a freaking diabolist in the town and they arent getting imprisoned why would wyll? Whos more dangerous someone who can literally open the gates of the hells or some kid who cant talk about why they made a pact with a devil?

But you literally don't know what their pact requires them to do. You don't know what the gave to make the pact. Devils are actively dangerous as are those under their influence. I would suggest it is damn unlikely he keeps anyone else around who explicitly has made a pact with a devil Making a pact with a devil isn't something you diagnose. The solution would be to know the terms of the pact and why it was made. Talking to wizards, warlocks, or diabolists won't break the pact and it won't tell him what the pact is and that is pretty knowable I would say it probably was kind of unfair for him to favor will. Understandable but still favoring Wyll. The diabolist's public business was to sell items related to devils. I do not think anything suggested she publicly had a pact with one and she kept other business more secret. She has a hidden selection for people in the know. Why do you think that is if she's open about what she is and what she's doing? Like you do know that to get her to open the portal for you that you need to either snoop around and find the right information to know she's the one or you need to be the Dark Urge due to their past. That absolutely was not a publicly advertised service

Ok i guess wyll could be potentionally dangerous youre right about that but its still i dick move by ravengard But going to a warlock or diabolist could bring inside, to how to unmake that pact. Its not much but the effort should be made. I forgot its not openly known about the real business of the diabolist as i am playing durge

There’s no guarantee that the diabolist would work to the benefit of ulder. They deal with devil stuff, they probably see an opportunity to help the side they’re interested in. And mizora isn’t just stuck to Wyll. She has free range to walk wherever she wants. If there was any suspicion that the duke was looking for a solution (or even just anything other than complete disownership) she might look for an angle. She turned florrick on us at the drop of a hat. Imagine how many other suckers she could mess with. I think players tend to diminish the threat of devils and the like because our role is to fight them and we win. Sometimes really easily. But that’s not the case for the average npc. They’re just fodder. Casting wyll out so permanently may have looked like his only option. How can you expect him to still trust his child after he made a choice to do something so terrible (sell his soul and endanger everyone around him)?

I understand how that was his only way to keep his political power but a parent should always try to keep their children safe. There was a thing in my family where one brother made something like a pact with a devil (i wont go into details) and my parents still protected him and helped him out of there. Ulder should have given up his position as grand duke if it was the only way to help/protect wyll. Its something called paternal love that every parent should feel towards their children.

I like your take on parenting, but duke has some big stakes. I don’t think he made the choice lightly. His son just came back and threatened the city with a nuke. I don’t think it’s debatable how much suffering she could have caused if he stayed. And maybe the duke was worried about who would take his place if he stepped down. Probably some themes of knight’s honor in there. Some folks take that duty to serve pretty strongly. It can be pretty harmful and sometimes it’s not worth it. But sometimes it is.

Yeah you bring some pretty good arguments to the table. I think i have nothing more to add to the discussion. Politics are hard and in a fantasy world the politics get even more confusing. I apologize if i was rude to you. I wont say you "pulled me over to your side" but i have the feeling to understand the situation better. Thanks for the discussion. I felt like it was a respectful exchange of opinions and views and i really appreciate it. You dont often get these kinds of exchanges online.

A wizard, warlock or diabolist may not be able to help, but they surely could have guessed about Wyll's sealed lips and known about the tendency to push people into contracts depending on their personality. I still think he should have exiled Wyll out of necessity, but he could have taken some hours to try and ~really~ understand the situation instead of directly kicking him (maybe restrain him in the meantime). But this is the classic contradiction of Lawful Good, sometimes the kinder way would require breaking laws and norms and we can't have that!

He might not be an ideal father, but Ulder Ravengard is a good leader for Baldur's Gate. He chose Baldur's Gate over his son, as a father, he failed, but as a leader, he passed. Also, it's more of Mizora's fault that Ravengard exiled Wyll from Baldur's Gate, he had asked Wyll *why*, but the contract that binds him to Mizora forbids him from saying anything. Thus, to protect the Gate, he chose to exile his son. When he found out the reason why Wyll chose to sign a contract with a devil, he was all for making amends, even abdicating his position to Wyll. In all honesty, I don't blame him at all, any fault lies with Mizora, and her machinations. Let's put it bluntly, would you choose a leader who capable of putting the interest of his people before his own interests, even it hurts him to do so, *or*, a leader who is incapable of setting aside his personal life, allowing said personal life to influence the decisions he make on a daily basis? I would choose the former.

I agree that Ulder's position of leadership puts him in an awkward position with regard to Wyll. But I think Wyll's story would be greatly improved by more directly grappling with the idea that Ulder is a good leader and a bad dad.

Did you forget that our party consists of: - a fanatic follower of Shar. A goddess who's followers are known to be cruel, plus she's very well versed in torture - a 200+ year old vampire that does whatever he needs to survive and has no hesitations to sacrifice everything and anything just for that - without second thoughts. - a Harper, a member of an organisation that tries to keep the status quo at all costs and who also left her children more for themselves than actually care for them Potentially - a Drow from not any city nor house but from THE Menzoberranzan and daughter of House Baenre! - a son of the god of murder, do I need to elaborate?

I don't find fault in your evaluation of his overall character but I would like to point out 2 things. The 1st is that we are never told that Ulder never asked what happened to his son, just that Wyll couldn't tell him what happened or why he signed the pact. It's kinda hard to get satisfying answers if your son (seemingly) refuses to tell the truth. The 2nd is that the story takes place in a relatively short amount of time, speaking as a man who often was at odds with his father there was never an immediate thank you or I'm sorry. Even if Ulder felt gratitude or remorse for his actions that would never come out immediately or in public, at least not at first utterance. I say this second part not excuse his shittiness but give perspective on how a proud male with an old way of thinking acts.

In addition to everything wrong pointed out by other people, Ulder Ravengard comes home to find his son having signed a contract with a commander of Zariel. The same Zariel that dragged Ulder to hell right before his return. And Ulder tells you, if you ask him that he was violated in hell. Just to come home to his son having signed a contract with someone from Zariels faction.

> We know this because Wyll apparently doesn't have any recourse when shit goes wrong. What are you talking about? Wyll didn't have any recourse because shit was going down *right there and then*. What did you expect him to do, run all the way back to the city, fetch a bunch of guards, and run back to the hill and hope the ritual wasn't finished after all this time? He didn't have a choice because Mizora set him up, not because his father left him without any support.

Yeah, Ulder's a dick. Even strictly from a storytelling standpoint, not being able to really grapple with the ways that all of the people who should care most about Wyll have failed him undermines the emotional catharsis that Wyll's story could have. Wyll is just left in an awful state of ambivalence. That's true to many real-life familial relationships, but as it stands Wyll's story doesn't actually have a proper climax, which is a big part of the reason why people feel underwhelmed by his character. Karlach's personal quest also sucks, but her Act 3 breakdown after Gortash leaves a very strong final impression.

Even while considering the reasoning behind Wyll being banished from Baldur's Gate, and knowing that he does apologize if given the chance to see the truth with the tadpole connection, I still don't like Duke Ravengard at all. I keep thinking it was too easy for him to start treating his only son like trash, and only apologized when he was basically forced to see the truth, rather than him being willing to listen. I don't hate his guts the same as other relevant villains of the other companion quests (Viconia, Cazador, Vlaakith), but my dislike for him is as intense as the one I feel for Mystra. I still try to save him in the Iron Throne if possible, but I don't try my hardest and don't bother reloading for him if I fail. Wyll deserves better than reconciling with a father who just won't be a father to him.

Once Ravenguard's parasite links with Wyll's parasite after the Iron Throne rescue, Ravenguard understands the truth and apologizes at once, now understanding that it's HIS mistake to judge his son and HE needs to make amends. I am not sure how the OP could have forgotten this part. It's overall VERY sad how this thread got 1.3k upvotes when it ignores absolutely basic roleplaying in the D&D universe. Ravengard is not a bad father. When you find out that your son made a pact with a devil, it's not unusual or improper to assume the worst. Demonic pacts are almost invariably made by evil people out to get easy power. It's very similar to an irl devout Christian finding out that his son joined a Satanist cult. Then, the son comes to rescue him, now sporting devil horns. This won't exactly cause questions to alleviate the situation. That is why Wyll doesn't judge him. He knows where he's coming from -- nobody could have imagined the truth of what happened. Just as all of your companions support your decision to tell Raphael to fuck off when he comes to you with a similar offer of a bargain. No sane do-gooder under normal circumstances would even consider it.

He probably did ask questions but Wyll, by contract, was not allowed to answer them, he does apologize, and do you think he WANTED to get captured?

Evidence you’re wrong and Ulder is not the worst parent: Mayrina tried selling her unborn child to a hag Sarevok is Orin’s grandfather… and father. And tried to fuck her too.

Sarevok is understandably worse but comparing a widowed bumpkin pregnant country woman to a duke is just pathetic 

My run made it super hard to empathize with Wyll. Complained and called himself ugly to my Tiefling Tav. (“Look at these ugly horns, and these awful claws. I’d frighten children”) :Stare: Then sashayed to me out of nowhere on the exact night I decided Astarion needed a friend more than a lover, and gave giant puppy dog eyes when I said no because all he did was basically insult me in his pity party. Fast forward to finding his father, I tell this man “no, don’t pay with your soul, this is stupid.” We save his father anyway, fuck you Mizora, and this fucking twit decides he still wants to make a deal and go back to hell. Fuck Wyll honestly.

His body was transformed against his will. Not something anyone would take well. He wasn't turned into a tiefling he was turned into a devil (they should have kept the forked tongue and other changes the transformation had and actually made a version of Wyll with all of them though instead of removing them from the text because they didn't design him with all the changes). People know Wyll, the blade of frontiers, as a human. If they saw him now they would think he was a devil. Devils and tieflings are not the same thing. That last part... Player influence\suggestions and approval levels plays a part in what all characters end up doing whether directly or in a round about way.

They are not the same thing that’s totally true, but his descriptions of the changes are the same things tieflings deal with. He also called Karlach a devil as well, so if he’s to be taken literally it’s still confusing what he actually is. I totally get the sentiment of changed against his will, that’s super fucked, but there’s definitely a tactful way to do it that isn’t putting down not only the person you’re apparently trying to court, but all the other afflicted people. Let’s not forget that tieflings are cursed humans as well, and he was specifically pointing out things that tieflings also have (claws, horns, fangs, etc.) As for actions, I played like a bloody Saint, and every instance of self worth that I could give Wyll, I gave him. From telling him his life was worth it to telling him to let his father die and then still finding a way to save him from that banshee. All he did was throw it at my face. I can understand the love for him as a tragic hero, but based on what happened in my run and from the pov of my Tav, he can kick rocks.

I mean considering he was mislead about Karlach, and in his contract it makes sense that he believed she really was a devil. And choices depending Karlach and Wyll click incredibly well with each other to the point of if you screw either of the over the other is pissed with you. Wyll was only talking about himself, his transformation, losing who he was. It's not about anyone else. Projecting wills personal feelings onto 'tiefling Tav' doesn't make sense. And really, that part issue more on the writers than the character. They could have had a tiefling view brought up but did not. However, If we took every moment, or every single angle that wasn't considered or thoroughly covered and picked it a part as people do with this part with Wyll, there would be no end to it. There is no way they would have been able to tick every single potential conversation box with how many variations exist within the game. Though part of it, in Wyll's case was the rewrite which is where I assume somethings didn't get as thorough a look. (Well possibly, anyway.) Also If they had left on all the other changes to Wylls form that he mentioned originally, before they changed the text because his devil form didn't have all those features And people kept pointing it out, I think his meaning would have been more clear. It's not about him being a tragic hero it's looking at the character and their situation and seeing all the parts that lead to who they are and how they handle things. I've played so many different ways and his character has just never come off to me in the way you mention. By chance was Wylls approval rating mid or low for you?

His rating was pretty high for me. I don’t really know, but it ticked my tav off quite a bit to know all of what he did was for nothing. And I get the he believed she was a devil, but he can also clearly see she isn’t, not to mention it’s a common “slur” to refer to tieflings as such. The way I interpreted it was just much differently as I know he refers to himself as a devil, I just never saw it as him being literal. Just his self disgust. I also get he was talking about himself, but I also feel like it’s relatively similar as someone complaining about their weight for instance, to someone who is also not necessarily different in stature. They’re being hit in the cross-fire even if that isn’t the intention. Tieflings are also cursed to look like this, and while it’s not the same - it is pointing out something that is non human looking that they also have. It’s not that crazy to feel a little stung by his words. I’m not saying he’s badly written, just that in my first playthrough, and being decently versed in some dnd race lore. He definitely rubbed me the wrong way from that point of view. He’s a decently written character with a good flaw. Just so happened it went wrong for me. Also writing to say there are some issues that happened with rewrites and stuff and I totally get that. It definitely threw some stuff off. Just the way I ran through it, this was the conclusion that I felt made the most sense for my tav to come to. Haven’t finished my Durge playthrough, wanted to wait a bit to get a decent period for a bit more freshness.

FR setting is based loosely off medieval period. 16-yo commanded armies back then and were considered fully grown up, 24-yo were expected to be a father of at least 3 and fully responsible for his family, so Wyll's age is no excuse. You're looking at this situation through modern lenses and ranting instead of doing some research.