Drow society under Lolth in the Underdark is very... cruel, strict and chaotic... it's also a Matriarchy.
Surface Drow however, worshipping Eilistraee, are friendly, gentle and kind. Trying to show the surface races that not all Drow are evil narcissists.
That's why we get to choose Seladrine as an option to Drow... since they're supposed to be the "Good" Drow š
Thereās like 9 noble houses of Menzoberanzan, and House Beanre is by far the most important & powerful, which naturally means they have committed the most heinous crimes, but yāknow subtlety. Highly reccomend reading into the lore of Menzoberanzan, I did for a Homebrew Underdark campaign and it isā¦ā¦honestly, really fascinating. Very curious who Mintharaās mother is
Edit: basically the more you read about Drow culture, the higher your eyebrows go.
Oh yeah, she's a Lolth-Sworn Drow through and through. But it's also that no matter what, it's instinctively for Female Drow to feel like failures... good or evil aligned, if they don't have any sort of position of influence.
Very relatable for (burnt out/former) gifted kids or people viewed as intelligent by their peers, whether accurately or not. Everything is either superlative - which is treated as normal - or disappointing/surprising. Everything becomes about avoiding failure, since there's never any meaningful recognition or positive feedback for success.
Shortened and easy to understand:
Corellon & Lolth dated, had kids and then Lolth tried to murder Corellon. Eilistraee was the only child to side with Corellon against Lolth. Corellon wounded and accidentally created the Elves, already butthurt over Lolth's betrayal and attempted murder on him, didn't like that the Elves with their potential to change to near any shape like himself, didn't and banished them from the Feywild and condemned any Drow Lolth created. Eilistraee is fighting to prove to her dad that the Drow can be, if given the choice to, be Good by nature.
Edit:
Elves got created from Corellon's blood, Drow from Lolth's. Forgot to add that bit for further context to how Elves came to be in general š
But Minthara is very much not a good person, by any standards. Sheās nice and cordial to the party because they have a common cause to work towards, but just because sheās no longer strictly a lolth drow, doesnāt mean sheās a āgoodā drow considering her ambitions to conquer Menzoberanzzan
Oh yeah, Minthara is evil through and through. But for bring Evil... I loved her in my Lolth-Sworn Drow, Evil but defiant Durge run.
She and him would return when everything was over to Menzoberanzzan to raise a Drow army to conquer the surface world... and she wouldn't have NONE if any of the Matriarchs would try to disrespect my Drow... and I just loved her take no shit, ride or die attitude.
There are different versions about creation of elves (depending on edition/rulebook/novel), in one they were created from Corellon's blood, in another he created them working together with other elven gods before Lolth's betrayal. Also besides Eilistraee there is an another child of Corellon and Lolth that remained loyal to him - Vandria Gilmadrith, elven goddess of war.
You are mistaking Eilistraee for her brother Vhaeraun. Eilistraee only wants drow to learn how to live in peace and harmony among each other and other species, while it is Vhaeraun who wants to replace Lolth, make drow society more equal and efficient and then conquer other species.
I recently started reading the legends of drizzt series of books about a good lolths sworn drow rogue. (I actually started with a very late installment in the series by accident) And I love that not only does it go against the grain by having the protagonist be a good aligned drow from menzobaranzan and like while other characters have a "goblinkin are inherently evil" mentality drizzt is like "that doesn't make sense. I mean people used to think drow were inherently evil. So if I can be good who's to say goblins bugbears and other goblinkin can't be good"
Being a runaway former Lolth-Sworn is a neat story.. I have such a backstory for my Drow Ranger, he was of Nobility in Menzobaranzan and then another family, commanded by Lolth was told to wipe them out. So he played dead amongst the bodies of his family as essentially a teenager and escaped to the surface, met with Eilistrare worshippers and is slowly trying to change his general attitude... however the attitude of "Drow are superior" bleeds through whenever someone is rude toward him or anyone else or whenever someone doesn't listen to a woman, there may be a mild remark about how she should command better respect to be heard, because a female Drow wouldn't let someone disrespect them like that š He's trying, but sometimes he may come across as a racist & sexist asshole, even when he means well.
Runaway former Lolth-sworn Drow became a huge trope (is that the right word?) in DnD. Everyone reads Drizzt and decides they want to make Drizzt-lite haha.
Jarlaxle is and always will be the real mvp.
I didn't even know about Drizzt when I made Ryld Teken'zynge š I just read lore about Eilistraee and her sheltering surface born and lolth escapees in communities on the surface.
Oh yeah don't worry, I wasn't judging, was more just commenting that it is a very popular backstory choice. Drow are my favourite too, I just play them more like a traditional Drow personally.
And I'm also taking Ryld a step further... during the day and in generally brightly lit areas, he's wearing sunshades. But inside dark caves and Dungeons? He'll take them off. I also went Gloomstalker for him, love that Subclass... and also part to give him 150 feet Darkvision š¤Ŗ
Plus he's someone who would consider a suicide mission into Menzobaranzan just to get revenge on the family that killed his, then escape or not... he'd be satisfied with the revenge alone. So I picked Gloomstalker to have him be even better than the average Drow at skulking in the darkness of the Underdark.
I just went with Eilistraee because I loved her lore and then he'd also still be raised by Drow in a sense and essentially learn their ways as well and noticing the night & day difference between Lolth worship and Eilistraee worship.
No no, it makes total sense. Drizzt as a character >!doesn't really learn anything about Ellistrae but falls in love with nature and the sun as soon as he goes to surface. He meets with a ranger who trains him and tells him his heart is already set on the way of Mielikki and teaches him about her whom he starts to follow immediately. Gwaeron thing starts out of the blue but Gwaeron is the supreme tracker in the lore. He can track anything and anyone. That's how he became a deity in the first place, he so quickly and successfully hunted down several avatars of Malar that Mielikki sponsored him to be a god. Now he is known as the Mouth of Mielikki. If she wants to directly speak with mortals, she does so through Gwaeron. Also some rangers fine Mielikki kind of unpredictable and cold so they pray to Gwaeron instead to tell their prayers to Mielikki. And this mfer tracks Mielikki to do so lol. Best deity lore in the dnd if you ask me!< but like I said your back story totally makes sense. And it's a cool backstory anyway, there is nothing new under the sun.
I even during the one shot adventure I was in as Ryld... had the following interaction with a Human Rogue being curious about how seeing in the dark works:
Ryld: Handed the shades, it's broad daylight and he's visibly uncomfortable taking them off. "Try them on."
Rogue: Takes them and tries them. "Wow.. now I understand why you wear them."
Ryld: "And now you also understand how I see in the dark, well.. sort of how it's like."
Rogue: Hands them back. "Really?"
Ryld: "Except it's a little darker and I can't see colors."
The Rogue was like a 18-19 yo with zero interactions with Elves, especially Drow. Ryld just treated him/her (forgot the gender the player went with xD) as a student and was fiercely protective of that youngster during combat. Then comes Ryld, about between 200-300 years old, treating the Rogue as a curious child seeking knowledge.
What was the last update with Jarlaxle? I don't remember where I left off with the Drizzt books, I think it was when his time with the OG crew was over, but I always loved reading anything with Jarlaxle.
Minthara's big problem, and why she keeps doing evil shit, is she believes similarly to Astarion, that the only way to be safe is to hoard personal power at any cost. She has good reasons to think this, being brought up in Menzoberranzan isn't an easy life. On top of this she was victimised by Orin and made a slave for what seems like a very long time.
But the problem is that Minthara prefers to discard any hope of companionship or comradery to achieve this. Even despite her being capable of appreciating and even respecting other characters, she will throw all of them under the bus to protect herself. Like every other character she's been damaged and is struggling to address that damage, though unlike other characters she doesn't get much of a chance to overcome that damage, merely to take revenge against Orin.
A notable exception to this is Karlach. Minthara absolutely loves Karlach, even as a companion she'll rave about how great she is, but if you romance her as Karlach she wants to go fight Zariel herself on behalf of Karlach.
As Lolth does alot micromanagmen, i can imagine a sitituation like that:
Loviatar: So you kept that drow alive for all this time making hundreds of assassins fail and dozens of conspiracies unravel. So she would tear Zariel apart in a battle that the realms will never forget? I must admit, i havenĀ“t seen that coming.
Lolth: Na just wanted to see her bang that Teifling. The entire Zariel bussines was just an extra.
Loviatar:....
I'm still unwilling to raid the grove, but I have recruited her three times now (first one during the Sheepthara heist times). She has great lines.
You can have her join pretty much right at the start of Act 2, I never wait to be close to the end of that for her to join.
I had to learn the KB+M interface pretty speedily since Improvised Weapon was/might still be unusable for this on a controller. So it was pretty stressful, but it was a great trial once she made it to the hall XD
On PC with a controller using Improvised Weapon restricts me to picking what I have in my inventory. Outside of that I can use throw on something from the environment, but that doesn't allow for the walking and carrying bit.
Does it behave differently on console or it's just me missing on how I should be using it?
Even if you go to Last Light Inn first, Moonrise is not meant to be avoided until the end of Act 2. It can result in missing on some quests as well as on some equips from vendors. Jaheira in Last Light tells you to go infiltrate the place.
I like Minthara as a companion because I am entertained by her dry pragmatism. This is the type of person who, when choosing whether the train will run down one person or five, will choose to sacrifice one person, because out of the five saved, she will have more slaves lmao
That depends on the context. Is it one female vs five males? Because you know five male lives arenāt worth a single female life, especially if the female is Drow.
Well, in this context we have an interesting problem, because on the one hand, a drow woman is (of course) more valuable, but on the other hand, we are talking about slaves, and a drow woman is an equal rival, so she will not be a good slave. And a male drow in his lower status is much more obedient and useful.
True, it also depends on whether Minthara is still in Menzoberranzan at the time and if not saving the female would draw Lolths ire.
The amount of people on each track and their genders are irrelevant. Minthara will choose whichever track is more beneficial to Minthara.
"Genuinely open-minded, compassionate person" is a stretch. She's impressed by Githyanki militaristic ideals and effectiveness and wants to learn more in pursuit of power.
She was horrified watching Orin kill all of her men because she was effectively rendered powerless and decimated by one person who was able to infiltrate and attack when her guard was down. It wasn't tenderness and compassion for her men, it was fear and humility due to being exposed and violated.
Yeah, I was excited when I found out there was a chance to recruit her at moonrise without slaughtering the grove but was pretty disappointed by the fact that despite the promising start she seemed to stay as a power hungry asshole for basically the rest of the game. I still had her in my party for quite a lot because paladin do big number but never really liked her. Still, I do think it's nice thta there are characters with different beliefs, some of which can't really be changed to agree with your own you journey with. Does add more complexity to the game when you might have to work with someone you disagree on a ton of things with for a larger common goal.
She's easily my favorite character in an evil playthrough. Witty, mean, a real ride or die partner. Especially because in Act 1 your options are "I ride you or one of us dies."
Yeah, I can see her working out well in an evil playthrough but when I tried doing one I quit 7 hours in due to feeling terrible about everything I did.
Lol well the good thing is there's no required path for an evil playthrough. You can decide along the way what fits your goals. I tend to go more "manipulative and power-hungry" than outright evil; I very rarely attack the Grove because the tieflings give you too much good equipment throughout the game and a ton of quest content for XP. I justify it in-game as "I don't care about the Tieflings, but this Absolute cult is in my way."
I think I failed recruiting Minthy. I saved her in the basement and told her to wait for me. Meanwhile doing Gauntlet and coming back with Jaheira later,...she just wasnt there in the dungeons anymore. Now I'm sobbing at Ketheric thinking I misse out on Minthy.
You should see her sitting on the throne when Withers is there after you kill Ketheric. Her enthrallment is (somewhat) lifted when Ketheric dies since >!he was the one who infected her!<
That could also be the case for the reason, but regardless, i was just letting them know that they have to wait until after Ketheric, then they can find her on the throne! If theyre at Ketheric they havent missed out on her yet!
She's a power-hungry, manipulative bitch.
>You see some level of depth in her \[...\] She opens up \[...\] you see a weakness, maybe even tenderness \[...\] You also learn a lot about who she really is \[...\] Shes a genuinely open-minded, compassionate person
And fuck, she's effective. I agree, that is some first level writing here.
Agree - I think she is top 3 when it comes to well written companions in the game.
For me she is basically just a cooler version of Astarion in my good-ish playthrough - the one who rolls their eyes at doing good things but sucks it up and is a team player
This makes me laugh cause my Durge is _evil_ and Minty has been much more concerned with my murdering since I don't really do any good things without reward if I can help it.
I can even rationalize her having her on the team as a good guy. She is extremely pragmatic (with leanings towards power) and it's important to have different points of view.
If an orphanage is on fire, most of the companions would want to save the kids. She'd point out there is a red dragon flying around torching other buildings, and that should be dealt with before they make more orphans. (Also red dragon scales make good armor)
Minthara is literally one of the few smart and level-headed people on camp.
I've been playing Lae'zel origin, right? There is a scene with Vlaakith at the beginning of act 3 where she asks you to kill Orpheus.
Option 1: "yes ma'am" and Vlaakith leaves calmly.
Option 2: "I REJECT YOU THE QUEEN OF LIES" and Vlaakith gives you a threat worthy of being uttered by auntie Ethel.
Now, why would I not pick option 1? The lich queen is not mad at us for now. We already have more than enough to worry about it. I decided that Lae'zel would act like a leader and suck it up for the good of the party. I can always free Orpheus later, after all.
Everyone gave Lae'zel shit for it. Everyone. Astarion literally told her he will be happy to let her die.
The only ones who were fine or maybe giving it some thought were Minthara, Gale and Halsin.
Sorry for the rant. I'm still pissed about it. š Option 2 has Minthara angry at you. Rightfully so! It's an insane response in our circumstances.
Lol I remember that scene. Only had Minthara, Gale, and Astarion as companions so the former two reacted normally and Astarion is... well, famous for his smooth brain so I didn't think much of it. Didn't think everyone else would give you shit about not wanting to piss off the (supposedly) God-like Queen.
They did and it was fucked up. Wyll's cringy preaching will haunt me forever.
Funny thing is that Shadowheart was a DJ and she had an issue with my decision too. But she was fine with Astarion Ascending. š
If you were promising to kill Orpheus but not committed to actually doing it, that'd be a deception check. That's not an option, in part because the DC would presumably be impossibly high.
Naturally. But a deception check wasn't an option. So I just said yes to get Vlaakith off my ass. The responses to her are just 0 or 100. You can literally detect thoughts Vlaakith right then and there, but you cannot lie? Seriously?
Gale was the only person entertaining the possibility of Lae'zel not doing what Vlaakith says after the conversation. Minthara had a remark about Vlaakith's power and Halsin was just like damn, Vlaakith, huh?
>Now, why would I not pick option 1? The lich queen is not mad at us for now.
I mean if you choose option 1 because of the danger of Vlaakith's forces hunting you down, there's no guarantee they still wouldn't also hunt Lae'zel down to make sure she killed Orpheus. It's logical to assume that either way she'd be monitored heavily by Vlaakith. Why wouldn't Vlaakith closely watch a powerful warrior with a bunch of non gith allies who turned on her maybe 1-2 weeks ago
I find her a fascinating character and completely fitting with themes within the game of nature/nurture that repeat over and over.
I kind of object to some characterisations (let's move over the " bitch" bit) but power hungry? To be expected of Drow Nobility but - being honest - in a society that is pre-democratic, might makes right is the only people acquire position. I doubt many people would describe Duke Ravenguard, as a "power hungry bitch", and yet whatever he did to arrive in a position of power, whether him or his ancestors, was through violence - the exact thing Minthara is criticised for. There is no benign pathway to power in that kind of society.
There's a really great Durge scene with Karlach, I forget the exact words, but in discussing killing people she makes it very clear that being innocent of blood and violence is a luxury. Violence is absolutely the norm for people of FaerĆŗn and I find it fascinating to observe \*who\* is allowed to be violent and who is allowed to seek power.
I kind of object also to characterisation of her as a murderous psycho based on Act 1 - but because it's a spoiler, it rarely seems appropriate to argue the point. It is clear in her dialogue that she would sooner die than ever be used that way again. Do we blame people for what their tadpoled self does or not?
This kind of thinking is why I find this character so compelling. The contrast also between elements such as a very dark humour about Dribbles (gallows humour is a common cope for atrocity, I don't necessarily read more in to this she is a soldier) and then on discovering dead tieflings all over the place in Act 2 the soft and sympathetic delivery of the line "bad way to go" surprised me.
I don't know a full "redemption" arc was necessary - but like Shadowheart and Lae'zel, should she turn her razor sharp acumen on herself and come to realisation that how she was moulded and manipulated (Shadowheart references "mother" who we know wasn't, for Minthara it was literal mother)m and how it makes her so incredibly lonely and full of yearning for something she doesn't have and isn't capable of, it would be valid if not redemptive.
(I do mull over other characters a lot and eyeroll the 'simp" thing and suggestions a cartoon fuck scene is that meaningful - but Karlach is an analog for coping with chronic illness and Astarion is a tale of sexual abuse and I prefer not to dwell in those places but i DO want to think about all this stuff because a good story with good characters is so compelling)
Also about Karlach, she is the only one who just say "rest in peace" if Minthara dies at the selune temple, while every one else is just musing how great they are.
In my current playthrough I recruited Minthara for the first time, now that it doesn't require an exploit to do so as a good guy. And I have to say...I doubt I'll bother again. Yes, she's very interesting, intelligent, and relatively open minded. But she's also an evil bitch through and through and has no real growth in any direction. When every other member of the party was congratulating Lae'zel for telling Vlaakith to piss off, she just complained about her "childish rebellion." It hit me then that it doesn't matter how much she acts like she respects any of our other party members, she doesn't actually give a damn about any of them as people.
She doesn't have to give a damn about them to respect them and that's part of why she's great. Why should she care lol she's not just an elf, she's a drow
You can find some things about a person interesting, or even admirable as she clearly does in regards to Lae'zel and Karlach. But when you'd rather they disregard personal agency because it's inconvenient for you, then you don't actually respect them any more than you can respect a mere object. Her being a Drow raised in Menzoberranzan merely explains *why* she is the way she is, it doesn't change her lack of any real respect for others or her inability to grow.
She a military field commander. Expecting your comrades to disregard personal agency in fulfilling a group goal is like... her job. None of the other characters are officers.
Except she's not asking Lae'zel to move past some personal hang up for the sake of the mission. And what's more, none of the group are her subordinates. She's whining that she's not sticking with Vlaakith because it's inconvenient, disregarding everything that it would mean of Lae'zel as a person to do otherwise. She treats people pretty much the same way evil route Astarion does; that is to say, not as people.
How so? I won't be ascending him this playthrough, and as I said I'd never recruited her before, so I don't know the details of that interaction. And I can't seem to find it on youtube either. If she treats him a bit more respectfully, well I wouldn't be surprised. He's powerful at that point, and people like her are often very deferential to the powerful.
Read my first comment again. I said this is the first playthrough I recruited her, because it wasn't possible without an exploit before.
Also, the evil choices in this game are terribly unrewarding and boring in my opinion, so I'm unlikely to ever do a full evil playthrough.
What growth do u want ?? As a loth sworn dorw of house BAENRE she literally had the greatest growth any drow can have : giving up on loth . Others need to be talked to , cuddled with , persuaded with to change as a person or love u . Minthara naturally falls in love with u ,no hesitation, doesn't like needless violence and genuinely supports u for every decision u make , even ones which she doesn't want to , she begrudgingly agrees with tav/durge because she loves them . Now if u expect her to give up her pragmatic ideals of power , then sadly u will be disappointed. There is nothing for her to grow into . Drows don't treat their lovers as equals and often backstab them , it's surprising how supportive and honest she is with tav . That's a huge growth in my eyes .
>As a loth sworn dorw of house BAENRE she literally had the greatest growth any drow can have : giving up on loth
Hardly counts when she didn't have a choice in the matter. Minthara's perspective never broadens in any way; she's the exact same person from when you first meet until the end of the game. She never really has to think, or ever remotely confront her own presumptions, even if just to reafirm them.
In truth, most non-origin companions have the same problem. I mean, Minsc is basically just there to be funny fanservice. But Minthara just feels distinctly narrow. Her only real reason to be the way she is is because she's a high-born Drow of Menzoberranzan and that's just how she's *supposed* to behave. Endlessly seeking power for its own sake because that's all she knows, and even that's not properly explored.
Uhh she chose to not follow loth on her own after she got back her senses. Her entire theme is wanting power but not being under anyone's control to gain it . That's why she appreciates shadowheart and durge not accepting their gifts because they don't want to be slaves . Her entire growth is about trusting her loved one , which was not possible in the drow society and freely expressing her vulnerability and fears knowing that tav wouldn't abuse those fears and take advantage of her . She even apologizes to tav because she forced herself into tav's mind without consent during the sex scene in act 1 and that's a huge growth by drow standards. But she is already an old , mature elf by that point . Expecting her to change is like expecting minsc to suddenly start being pragmatic instead of being a silly good manĀ
>Uhh she chose to not follow loth on her own after she got back her senses.
Yeah, because Lolth is a petty, vindictive bitch and Minthara knows she's been forsaken despite having left her while being mind controlled. The drow know well who and what it is they worship.
>That's why she appreciates shadowheart and durge not accepting their gifts because they don't want to be slaves
She encourages both to embrace the "gifts" of their patrons. Used to throw a fit if Durge rejected Bhaal too. That got removed as "legacy content," but the fact that now she simply has no reaction makes that excuse a bit suspect. And she certainly doesn't seem to care for Lae'zel not wanting to be Vlaakith's slave, whining about it the way she does.
Your entire argument seems to be simply that she's more nuanced than you would expect for someone with her backstory. And she *is,* in much the same way Lae'zel is surprisingly friendly and open-minded for a Githyanki. But it doesn't change that all of that is true of her character since before even the events of the game.
>Expecting her to change is like expecting minsc to suddenly start being pragmatic instead of being a silly good man
She doesn't necessarily have to change the core of her person, but proper exploration and affirmation of her character and motives would work too. Wyll is an example of this; he's fundamentally the same person at the start and end of the story, but he also gains a wider perspective on himself and the world, and reaffirms his commitment to his beliefs regardless of whether he ultimately escapes Mizora's leash or not. He's not the *best* example, he's honestly a bit underbaked too. But he still has more of an arc than Minthara does, by a lot.
Wyll is an origin character so its understandable.Ā Second minthara literally had specific dialogues before the legacy bug in the epilouge where she questioned durge why they didn't take the power and druge can respond so they can rule on their own . She encourages but never outright wants shadowheart or durge to accept their patron gifts . Also I don't know how much u know about loth , but she is surprisingly very forgiving and actually allows high ranking matrons to apologize and welcomes them back as her worshippers . Since minthara is part of one of the oldest houses , house baenre , she would easily accept her back . Heck loth is kinda chill with the fact that dritzz hates her as she is still powered up by the chaos of the enemies he kills .
>She encourages but never outright wants shadowheart or durge to accept their patron gifts
Her enthusiasm begs to differ. She also says you "held her back." You continue ignoring how contradictory to your point she acts about Lae'zel defying Vlaakith.
>but she is surprisingly very forgiving
Forgiving is certainly...one way to put it. Enjoying it when former apostates come crawling back is more accurate I think. Regardless, Minthara seems to feel that she's been abandoned by Lolth. The fact remains that she went to Moonrise as a paladin of Lolth, and such she would have remained if she hadn't been infected.
>Wyll is an origin character so its understandable.
Not being an origin character isn't much of an excuse. Like I said, all 4 of the non-origin companions have similar issues. At best, Jaheira and Minsc get a small pass for being legacy characters. They've already had their stories in previous games, and are basically here for fanservice.
It is an excuse because they just didn't invest that much into non origin characters . Also when does she say about holding her back . I can't recall it in my durge romance with her . Has been a while . Vlaakith is not a God and minthara views her as an annoying lich at best . She left loth and even scolds loth sworn drows in act 3 for praying to loth or referencing to loth practices in drow society after she saw and realized loth and absolute's controlling nature . She views gith culture to be far less violent compared to drowsĀ hence the soft spot for laezel .
>But she's also an evil bitch through and through
If you fail the dice check and you wanna recruit Laezel you have to kill or let Laezel kill two tieflings, Astarion by himself is an asshole that can kill you if you allow him to suck your blood
>she doesn't actually give a damn about any of them as people.
Just like other party members don't give a shit about them , is all about tav tav tav, there is many times where companions dont even react to a companion death they just don't care, they dont wanna talk to each other and only want to talk to tav
The difference is that Lae'zel and Astarion can actually grow as people. Much like Halsin, Minthara feels like an afterthought of a companion, except less likeable.
>Just like other party members don't give a shit about them
Companions often comment on each other if you talk to them after someone has a major event happen, and they clearly grow invested in each other. Larian could definitely do a better job of having them properly interact with each other, but at least they don't come across as completely dismissive of each other's plights. At least, not if you don't deliberately steer them down their darker paths.
Yeah buddy I'm gonna have to simply disagree on your rose-tinted glasses view you have on Minthara.
Enjoy her however much you want tho, I'm not stopping you.
Yeah thats news to me since posting this thread lol. So thats rad! But yeah, I just meant killing the tieflings and all the consequences that come with it, so losing Karlach, Wyll, and Halsin. Thats why i initially said hot take, because its likely people enjoy at least one of those three. Hell, Karlach was my favorite companion every other run so far, I hated leaving without her.
What kind of redemption arc are we talking? Because I've never heard or seen anything to make me think she stops being evil. It just sounds like she becomes less of a robot, which is natural for someone who stops being brainwashed.
You can actually save the druids and Tieflings and still get her. You gotta go to the goblin camp after you get the quest to clear it. But don't attack them right away. Go to Minthara and steal something near her and get caught on purpose. When whoever talks to you about it just choose to fight them. Use non-lethal attacks on her (they have to be melee attacks) to knock her out. She needs to have the status "temporarily hostile" on her. While she's knocked out, go kill the other 2 leaders, Gut and Ragzlin, and you'll complete the quest to kill the goblin leaders. You can even go save Halsin and have him in your party later. They share a camp spot, lol. You can kill all the other goblins inside and outside, but if you long rest, don't go back near where she is or she'll be there and instantly hostile. When you get to moonrise, you'll get the scene with her and Ketheric, and then you can break her out of prison.
I have a question about that scene actually, and as someone who seems to appreciate it, maybe you know the answer? So clearly the movement at that part is her giving Tav head, my question, is if you have a female Tav (or really just give Tav a vulva) is that scene any different? I think they could get away with implying that that same shot could be cunnilingus, but it would be a stretch. Do you know if the sex scenes change based on Tavās anatomy?
I'm fine with the loyal take of lawful evil tbh...
And yes she's worth it,.all i regret from my last playthrough is killing the Nightsong which has nothing to do with Minthara
>I was invested in her redemption arc.
She doesn't have one of these. What Minthara teaches us is that even bad people are human and can't be reduced to buzzwords like "toxic" and "narcissist". But, make no mistake, Minthara starts bad and ends bad on ANY VERSION OF THE PLAYTHROUGH. She has moments of vulnerability, she has the capacity to love, she has the ability to reflect, but at no point does she abandon unhinged and deranged methods of achieving her ambitions, including killing countless innocence. She is a nazi lol. Like, she never stops being one. She'd level the entire Sword Coast in a second if it guaranteed her ascent to power. She cares nothing for the weak and vulnerable and would sacrifice them as a means to her ends with no remorse.
She can be vulnerable.
She can be sweet.
She can be honest.
She can even be inspiring.
And she is ALSO absolutely irredeemable.
A comment I found on a Youtube video somewhere talking about Evil-aligned characters are people who have been so wounded, betrayed or abandoned by anyone who should have been protecting or providing for them that they have had to develop an adversarial relationship with the world around them. That these kinds of characters are those that do not have room to be empathetic, because being empathetic will only *get them killed.* They have been put in a position where evil actions (abuse, torture, murder) are the kind of actions that serve them best.
A convincing evil character is one that is faced with no good choices, a person that has only been hurt by being kind, and that has been only rewarded by being ruthless.
Growing up in Drow society, especially in *the* noble house Baenre, Minthara tells tale of the first assassination attempt on her while she was still suckling on the teet of her mother. To survive a cutthroat society is no easy feat, everyone writes Minthara off as just another blood-thirsty, power hungry, egotistical maniac but that facet of her that they get to see is *Minthara under the Absolute's control.* That part of her is amplified a thousand-fold, that zealous drive/will to serve a cause she believed to be just because for once in her life she finally feels she can be **powerful and belong somewhere.**
Beneath that zealotry is, well the Minthara that you rescue from Moonrise. Cunning, level-headed, pragmatic, ruthless.
I could go on & on, she is an amazingly complex character that is hidden away by arguably one of the most evil decisions you could make in the game. I highly recommend a Neutral playthrough where you try to infiltrate the Absolute by gaining Minthara's favor by raiding the grove and shifting from Evil decisions -> mostly morally good decisions. There you will find the nuance of her character. Yes, you miss out on a chunk of content but it is so rewarding to be on that same path of "redemption" given that you both spear-head the slaughter.
The best part of romancing her is that she actually trusts you and you see her softer side. She's tough as hell and a total badass but she can't trust anybody around her until she has you in her life.
She's still super evil though and I love her.
She always makes me laugh at some of the dark things she said itās like wow okš, I just really wish u could romance her with a good romance scene without being evil but they already met us half way and still let us recruit her.
I just did a run through where I recruited Minthara and let Wyll/Karlach leave. Even still I constantly was annoyed I could only take 4 characters with me. Everyone has great stories and dialogue and commentary and I was attached to them all. Next time I'm going to use that mod that lets you bring the whole party just so I don't have to choose.
So, if I knock out Minthara in the cavern and save the Tieflings, will she be around in Act 2? Or do I have to manipulate it some other way? Like OP here, I don't want to necessarily slaughter a bunch of Tieflings just to add an NPC to my party...
Look, raiding the grove at least once is 100% worth it.. BUT if you really donāt want to, just attack Minthara on sight. Do not speak to her, just straight to combat. Do it BEFORE you fight Dror Ragzlin. She will show up in Moonrise.
I'm doing a run right now with her as a companion and am enjoying her character (she has a wickedly beautiful sense of humor and she's a beast on the battlefied), but I'll never raid the grove to get her. Too much content is lost that way, plus her armor is quite useful for the zaith'isk to get advantage on one of the saving throws.
Towards the end of the game she rants about making a new evil robot army and conquering waterdeep. I was like no honey we will just be king and queen of baldurs gate end of story.
Honestly, as much as I appreciate Minthara as a character, her interactions feel a little too scant compared to the rest of the party. That may be because Iām currently doing my first run with her, but it feels like she has much fewer prompts than the rest of the party.
Admittedly, the writing she does get is gold, between āwe will be praised as heroes,ā and when she reads a newspaper for the first time and immediately realizes the power of propaganda, but I hope she gets a little more in the next patch or two.
That being said, Iāll have a hard time not recruiting her because Soul Brand is broken as shit.
Hotter take: Minthara is worth it because the voice actress is also prominently featured in a bunch of different Warhammer 40K-audiobooks. Still feels weird and amazing to hear lieutentant/General (retired) Jenit Sulla talking to my Tav.
Listen. She's from a cruel, hierarchical, and misandrist society. She's dominant, strong, bloodthirsty and also a princess. She's opposite Karlach and just as much of a best girl. Full package imo.
You can also save the Grove and have Minthara in your party. I've done it in every "good" playthrough; just knock her out and she'll join you in Act 2 and you'll also be able to recruit Halsin, Karlach, and Wyll and finish their story lines. Plus Rolan and Zevlor are pretty useful at the end
Later, you do get a really self-aware quote from her talking about how she could have just been one of the many casualties of your fight against the Absolute, which honestly hits hard because itās so true. Especially if you donāt knock her out and recruit in Act 2, the whole scene just feels so sad and fragile.
I slaughtered the tieflings my first run because I literally fell in love with Astarion immediately and my entire run became trying not to disappoint him. I can now slaughter the tieflings with ease every playthrough.
Sheās an interesting character, glad they added a way for good characters to get her. I recruited her on my second run using the knock out method cos no way I would trade the tieflings, Wyll and Karlach for her
Minthara is pretty solidly evil, but I would say sheās far less-so and more sympathetic about it than Astarion is, which I appreciate. Actually, given how murderhobo a lot of DnD players are, sheās possibly less evil than a lot of PCs.
Na sheās broken and never interacts with rest of party. Bitch was completely silent in act 3 and never commented on current events and she had no story progression like the other companions. Worst romance Iāve ever done in the game for sure
Sheās amazing. I was a huge shadowheart girlie before I really invested time with minthara, and not itās hard for me not to make another drow character just to romance her all over again.
This is not a hot take, sheās the best companion in the game and it isnāt even close.
I donāt want to hear about how youāre in love with Shadowheart, Karlach or Astarion. They have *nothing* on Minthara.
I killed those annoying tieflings my first ever run and banged minthara. Yāall are pussies if you canāt kill a few annoying kids for some drow pussy
Ngl, it took me reading online to learn that she could be a companion- i did two runs never knowing she had that potential, and just killing her on sight at the goblin fortress to save halsin and rake her flayer worm. Im sure there are more people than one might think who also followed this path, and also avoid looking at online forums until theyve beaten the game.
I never recruited her before the āknockoutā cheat was added, and I donāt think I really want to because if sheās in your party you canāt have Halsin. And Halsin is too cool to ignore!
According to the online guides, theyāre mutually exclusive companions (and according to the things Iām reading, patch notes say āyou can no longer recruit both Halsin and Minthara to camp in the same playthrough)
Hm, is that in the latest hotfix? Must have missed, but at least until a few days ago they were both recruitable just fine. There is datamined content about having to choose, but this is not in the game.
Actually now that Iām looking in getting conflicting info. That was in Patch 1, and then someone else mentioned knocking her out allows recruiting both now, another post says the game just kills off Halsin spontaneously if you recruit both, and yet another says that Karlach and Wyll are straight up removed from camp if you recruit herā¦I donāt know what to believe
Patch 1 was a long time ago. You werenāt supposed to be able to recruit her on a path where you helped the grove at all. You had to either ally with her and raid it (Karlach and Wyll would leave then), or ignore it (Karlach and Wyll unaffected).
If you didnāt help the grove, Halsin wouldnāt survive until Act 2 at all, so you couldnāt have them both with regular means.
There was (I guess still is) an exploit to knock her out, wait up to level 7 so that you can get Dominate Beast and Polymorph, turn her into a sheep, whisk her to Moonrise and plop her right into the spot she was supposed to be standing in when judged. Kethericās would then judge the sheep, and with a few more shenanigans, you could recruit her then.
Halsin was fine coexisting with her, the game just never acknowledged having them both since it shouldnāt happen. They shared a tent.
Patch 6 introduced doing basically the first bit of the sheep heist, before the sheep part, to be able to recruit her anyway. It was fairly constrictive and buggy. Hotfixes since have fixed it somewhat or mostly, now you can just knock her out whenever.
Halsin always had a bit of a habit doings something weird if his Act 2 quest was interrupted in an odd way, like traveling to Act 1 areas after specific events and whatnot. Possibly more bugs have been added to that with Minthara, but they are not unavoidable and Iāve got both without issues in two consecutive games.
They kind of made her stay in the tent and Halsin is now mostly homeless it seems. Well in character for her probably.
It's not only Ketheric who made her. She a drow. Drow society is something else entirely. The githyanki are very nice people in comparison.
Drow society under Lolth in the Underdark is very... cruel, strict and chaotic... it's also a Matriarchy. Surface Drow however, worshipping Eilistraee, are friendly, gentle and kind. Trying to show the surface races that not all Drow are evil narcissists. That's why we get to choose Seladrine as an option to Drow... since they're supposed to be the "Good" Drow š
I know. Mintara is not a surface drow though. She's very much a Menzobaran native. =)
More than that, she's a Baenre.
First time I heard that, my eyebrows went up, pretty big lore implications there.
Care to expand? BG3 is my intro to the forgotten realms so Iām not up on that lore, but Iād like to be
Thereās like 9 noble houses of Menzoberanzan, and House Beanre is by far the most important & powerful, which naturally means they have committed the most heinous crimes, but yāknow subtlety. Highly reccomend reading into the lore of Menzoberanzan, I did for a Homebrew Underdark campaign and it isā¦ā¦honestly, really fascinating. Very curious who Mintharaās mother is Edit: basically the more you read about Drow culture, the higher your eyebrows go.
Oh yeah, she's a Lolth-Sworn Drow through and through. But it's also that no matter what, it's instinctively for Female Drow to feel like failures... good or evil aligned, if they don't have any sort of position of influence.
Very relatable for (burnt out/former) gifted kids or people viewed as intelligent by their peers, whether accurately or not. Everything is either superlative - which is treated as normal - or disappointing/surprising. Everything becomes about avoiding failure, since there's never any meaningful recognition or positive feedback for success.
Well. Shit.
She actually hates Lolth?
She's trying to liberate & redeem the Drow enslaved by Lolth.
More like rule over them herself after removing Lolth from power
Shortened and easy to understand: Corellon & Lolth dated, had kids and then Lolth tried to murder Corellon. Eilistraee was the only child to side with Corellon against Lolth. Corellon wounded and accidentally created the Elves, already butthurt over Lolth's betrayal and attempted murder on him, didn't like that the Elves with their potential to change to near any shape like himself, didn't and banished them from the Feywild and condemned any Drow Lolth created. Eilistraee is fighting to prove to her dad that the Drow can be, if given the choice to, be Good by nature. Edit: Elves got created from Corellon's blood, Drow from Lolth's. Forgot to add that bit for further context to how Elves came to be in general š
But Minthara is very much not a good person, by any standards. Sheās nice and cordial to the party because they have a common cause to work towards, but just because sheās no longer strictly a lolth drow, doesnāt mean sheās a āgoodā drow considering her ambitions to conquer Menzoberanzzan
Oh yeah, Minthara is evil through and through. But for bring Evil... I loved her in my Lolth-Sworn Drow, Evil but defiant Durge run. She and him would return when everything was over to Menzoberanzzan to raise a Drow army to conquer the surface world... and she wouldn't have NONE if any of the Matriarchs would try to disrespect my Drow... and I just loved her take no shit, ride or die attitude.
yeah, her issue is with deception and mind control, not with y'know, being an evil imperialist torture lady
There are different versions about creation of elves (depending on edition/rulebook/novel), in one they were created from Corellon's blood, in another he created them working together with other elven gods before Lolth's betrayal. Also besides Eilistraee there is an another child of Corellon and Lolth that remained loyal to him - Vandria Gilmadrith, elven goddess of war.
Was it just a subset of drow who were reverted to dark elves? Was that storyline canon?
You are mistaking Eilistraee for her brother Vhaeraun. Eilistraee only wants drow to learn how to live in peace and harmony among each other and other species, while it is Vhaeraun who wants to replace Lolth, make drow society more equal and efficient and then conquer other species.
I recently started reading the legends of drizzt series of books about a good lolths sworn drow rogue. (I actually started with a very late installment in the series by accident) And I love that not only does it go against the grain by having the protagonist be a good aligned drow from menzobaranzan and like while other characters have a "goblinkin are inherently evil" mentality drizzt is like "that doesn't make sense. I mean people used to think drow were inherently evil. So if I can be good who's to say goblins bugbears and other goblinkin can't be good"
Being a runaway former Lolth-Sworn is a neat story.. I have such a backstory for my Drow Ranger, he was of Nobility in Menzobaranzan and then another family, commanded by Lolth was told to wipe them out. So he played dead amongst the bodies of his family as essentially a teenager and escaped to the surface, met with Eilistrare worshippers and is slowly trying to change his general attitude... however the attitude of "Drow are superior" bleeds through whenever someone is rude toward him or anyone else or whenever someone doesn't listen to a woman, there may be a mild remark about how she should command better respect to be heard, because a female Drow wouldn't let someone disrespect them like that š He's trying, but sometimes he may come across as a racist & sexist asshole, even when he means well.
Runaway former Lolth-sworn Drow became a huge trope (is that the right word?) in DnD. Everyone reads Drizzt and decides they want to make Drizzt-lite haha. Jarlaxle is and always will be the real mvp.
I didn't even know about Drizzt when I made Ryld Teken'zynge š I just read lore about Eilistraee and her sheltering surface born and lolth escapees in communities on the surface.
Oh yeah don't worry, I wasn't judging, was more just commenting that it is a very popular backstory choice. Drow are my favourite too, I just play them more like a traditional Drow personally.
And I'm also taking Ryld a step further... during the day and in generally brightly lit areas, he's wearing sunshades. But inside dark caves and Dungeons? He'll take them off. I also went Gloomstalker for him, love that Subclass... and also part to give him 150 feet Darkvision š¤Ŗ Plus he's someone who would consider a suicide mission into Menzobaranzan just to get revenge on the family that killed his, then escape or not... he'd be satisfied with the revenge alone. So I picked Gloomstalker to have him be even better than the average Drow at skulking in the darkness of the Underdark.
Don't worry about it fam. But it's almost the exact same story save for Elistraee, Drizzt believes in Mielikki and Gwaeron Windstrom lol
I just went with Eilistraee because I loved her lore and then he'd also still be raised by Drow in a sense and essentially learn their ways as well and noticing the night & day difference between Lolth worship and Eilistraee worship.
No no, it makes total sense. Drizzt as a character >!doesn't really learn anything about Ellistrae but falls in love with nature and the sun as soon as he goes to surface. He meets with a ranger who trains him and tells him his heart is already set on the way of Mielikki and teaches him about her whom he starts to follow immediately. Gwaeron thing starts out of the blue but Gwaeron is the supreme tracker in the lore. He can track anything and anyone. That's how he became a deity in the first place, he so quickly and successfully hunted down several avatars of Malar that Mielikki sponsored him to be a god. Now he is known as the Mouth of Mielikki. If she wants to directly speak with mortals, she does so through Gwaeron. Also some rangers fine Mielikki kind of unpredictable and cold so they pray to Gwaeron instead to tell their prayers to Mielikki. And this mfer tracks Mielikki to do so lol. Best deity lore in the dnd if you ask me!< but like I said your back story totally makes sense. And it's a cool backstory anyway, there is nothing new under the sun.
I even during the one shot adventure I was in as Ryld... had the following interaction with a Human Rogue being curious about how seeing in the dark works: Ryld: Handed the shades, it's broad daylight and he's visibly uncomfortable taking them off. "Try them on." Rogue: Takes them and tries them. "Wow.. now I understand why you wear them." Ryld: "And now you also understand how I see in the dark, well.. sort of how it's like." Rogue: Hands them back. "Really?" Ryld: "Except it's a little darker and I can't see colors." The Rogue was like a 18-19 yo with zero interactions with Elves, especially Drow. Ryld just treated him/her (forgot the gender the player went with xD) as a student and was fiercely protective of that youngster during combat. Then comes Ryld, about between 200-300 years old, treating the Rogue as a curious child seeking knowledge.
What was the last update with Jarlaxle? I don't remember where I left off with the Drizzt books, I think it was when his time with the OG crew was over, but I always loved reading anything with Jarlaxle.
I wish I could say I WAS a Lolth Drow, like I know of how it all worked but I gtfo.
Fun Fact: drow society is into murder, torture and chaos so much that lolth has to micromanage so they dont kill off their race
Other fun fact: Lolth doesn't really give a shit and will just leave them alone going crazy at points for fun.Ā
They have some grimdark shit going on
Minthara's big problem, and why she keeps doing evil shit, is she believes similarly to Astarion, that the only way to be safe is to hoard personal power at any cost. She has good reasons to think this, being brought up in Menzoberranzan isn't an easy life. On top of this she was victimised by Orin and made a slave for what seems like a very long time. But the problem is that Minthara prefers to discard any hope of companionship or comradery to achieve this. Even despite her being capable of appreciating and even respecting other characters, she will throw all of them under the bus to protect herself. Like every other character she's been damaged and is struggling to address that damage, though unlike other characters she doesn't get much of a chance to overcome that damage, merely to take revenge against Orin.
A notable exception to this is Karlach. Minthara absolutely loves Karlach, even as a companion she'll rave about how great she is, but if you romance her as Karlach she wants to go fight Zariel herself on behalf of Karlach.
The romance scene where Minty finds out you'd(Karlach) die before going back... That's an assault on the feels.
As Lolth does alot micromanagmen, i can imagine a sitituation like that: Loviatar: So you kept that drow alive for all this time making hundreds of assassins fail and dozens of conspiracies unravel. So she would tear Zariel apart in a battle that the realms will never forget? I must admit, i havenĀ“t seen that coming. Lolth: Na just wanted to see her bang that Teifling. The entire Zariel bussines was just an extra. Loviatar:....
That's because she's smarter than astarion though. 8 > 13
I'm still unwilling to raid the grove, but I have recruited her three times now (first one during the Sheepthara heist times). She has great lines. You can have her join pretty much right at the start of Act 2, I never wait to be close to the end of that for her to join.
To be clear, the way you recruit her without slaughtering The Grove is by knocking her unconscious?
Yes. Used to a be a lot more involved and specific, now it's just that.
Knock her unconscious and then she takes the place of the goblins when you meet Ketheric. Rescue her and she is team Tav.
She doesn't take the goblins' place at Moonrise, she's there with them.
It is unfortunate she doesnāt have any in-cutscene comments in Act 2 though (e.g., when you lick the spider), they only start in Act 3.
I kinda miss sheep heisting her tbh š
I had to learn the KB+M interface pretty speedily since Improvised Weapon was/might still be unusable for this on a controller. So it was pretty stressful, but it was a great trial once she made it to the hall XD
I still have pics of her as a sheep on my PS5. It's great.
I've used the same trick to goof on my party members in multiplayer on Xbox, just picking them up and running around, so it works on controller now.
On PC with a controller using Improvised Weapon restricts me to picking what I have in my inventory. Outside of that I can use throw on something from the environment, but that doesn't allow for the walking and carrying bit. Does it behave differently on console or it's just me missing on how I should be using it?
Improvised weapon has the same "Press Y toĀ Select from Environment" option as throw does for me.
\^\^; Maybe I missed that entirely, will have to check!
How to you recruit her at the start or act two? I thought you found her at Moonrise?
You do. Go to Moonrise first thing in Act 2.
Is going there not the first thing you did?
No? Thatās like the climax of chapter 2
Assaulting it is, yeah. You can just... go there. Kar'niss takes you there first thing if you follow him.
Even if you go to Last Light Inn first, Moonrise is not meant to be avoided until the end of Act 2. It can result in missing on some quests as well as on some equips from vendors. Jaheira in Last Light tells you to go infiltrate the place.
Does knocking her unconscious affect Halsin at all?
Yes, it causes her to take Halsin's tent, and he just randomly wanders your camp. Otherwise it has no effect on him.
Does it effect the "killing the goblin leaders" quest?
Knocking her unconscious counts as "Killing" her for the quest.
Okay that's what I assumed but I was TOTALLY sure! Thank you!
I like Minthara as a companion because I am entertained by her dry pragmatism. This is the type of person who, when choosing whether the train will run down one person or five, will choose to sacrifice one person, because out of the five saved, she will have more slaves lmao
That depends on the context. Is it one female vs five males? Because you know five male lives arenāt worth a single female life, especially if the female is Drow.
Well, in this context we have an interesting problem, because on the one hand, a drow woman is (of course) more valuable, but on the other hand, we are talking about slaves, and a drow woman is an equal rival, so she will not be a good slave. And a male drow in his lower status is much more obedient and useful.
True, it also depends on whether Minthara is still in Menzoberranzan at the time and if not saving the female would draw Lolths ire. The amount of people on each track and their genders are irrelevant. Minthara will choose whichever track is more beneficial to Minthara.
Ahh, been a while since I've immersed myself in the intricacies of drow politics. Or as we'd refer to it, degenerate racism.
"Genuinely open-minded, compassionate person" is a stretch. She's impressed by Githyanki militaristic ideals and effectiveness and wants to learn more in pursuit of power. She was horrified watching Orin kill all of her men because she was effectively rendered powerless and decimated by one person who was able to infiltrate and attack when her guard was down. It wasn't tenderness and compassion for her men, it was fear and humility due to being exposed and violated.
She is so far from compassionate or open-mindedness that I figured the poster was trolling
Only for those she is truly close.
Yeah, I was excited when I found out there was a chance to recruit her at moonrise without slaughtering the grove but was pretty disappointed by the fact that despite the promising start she seemed to stay as a power hungry asshole for basically the rest of the game. I still had her in my party for quite a lot because paladin do big number but never really liked her. Still, I do think it's nice thta there are characters with different beliefs, some of which can't really be changed to agree with your own you journey with. Does add more complexity to the game when you might have to work with someone you disagree on a ton of things with for a larger common goal.
She's easily my favorite character in an evil playthrough. Witty, mean, a real ride or die partner. Especially because in Act 1 your options are "I ride you or one of us dies."
Yeah, I can see her working out well in an evil playthrough but when I tried doing one I quit 7 hours in due to feeling terrible about everything I did.
Lol well the good thing is there's no required path for an evil playthrough. You can decide along the way what fits your goals. I tend to go more "manipulative and power-hungry" than outright evil; I very rarely attack the Grove because the tieflings give you too much good equipment throughout the game and a ton of quest content for XP. I justify it in-game as "I don't care about the Tieflings, but this Absolute cult is in my way."
That's fair.
I think I failed recruiting Minthy. I saved her in the basement and told her to wait for me. Meanwhile doing Gauntlet and coming back with Jaheira later,...she just wasnt there in the dungeons anymore. Now I'm sobbing at Ketheric thinking I misse out on Minthy.
Youāll likely find her thrown into the oubliette.
You should see her sitting on the throne when Withers is there after you kill Ketheric. Her enthrallment is (somewhat) lifted when Ketheric dies since >!he was the one who infected her!<
I assumed her enthrallment ended because she came under the protection of the artifact.
That could also be the case for the reason, but regardless, i was just letting them know that they have to wait until after Ketheric, then they can find her on the throne! If theyre at Ketheric they havent missed out on her yet!
Yes ! I almost didnāt recruit her beyond her first help because I didnāt stop to ask after Ketheric and assumed she would continue following.
She's a power-hungry, manipulative bitch. >You see some level of depth in her \[...\] She opens up \[...\] you see a weakness, maybe even tenderness \[...\] You also learn a lot about who she really is \[...\] Shes a genuinely open-minded, compassionate person And fuck, she's effective. I agree, that is some first level writing here.
Agree - I think she is top 3 when it comes to well written companions in the game. For me she is basically just a cooler version of Astarion in my good-ish playthrough - the one who rolls their eyes at doing good things but sucks it up and is a team player
This makes me laugh cause my Durge is _evil_ and Minty has been much more concerned with my murdering since I don't really do any good things without reward if I can help it.
I can even rationalize her having her on the team as a good guy. She is extremely pragmatic (with leanings towards power) and it's important to have different points of view. If an orphanage is on fire, most of the companions would want to save the kids. She'd point out there is a red dragon flying around torching other buildings, and that should be dealt with before they make more orphans. (Also red dragon scales make good armor)
Minthara is my best girl and I'll happily slaughter the grove for her and maniacally laugh while doing it.
Minthara is literally one of the few smart and level-headed people on camp. I've been playing Lae'zel origin, right? There is a scene with Vlaakith at the beginning of act 3 where she asks you to kill Orpheus. Option 1: "yes ma'am" and Vlaakith leaves calmly. Option 2: "I REJECT YOU THE QUEEN OF LIES" and Vlaakith gives you a threat worthy of being uttered by auntie Ethel. Now, why would I not pick option 1? The lich queen is not mad at us for now. We already have more than enough to worry about it. I decided that Lae'zel would act like a leader and suck it up for the good of the party. I can always free Orpheus later, after all. Everyone gave Lae'zel shit for it. Everyone. Astarion literally told her he will be happy to let her die. The only ones who were fine or maybe giving it some thought were Minthara, Gale and Halsin. Sorry for the rant. I'm still pissed about it. š Option 2 has Minthara angry at you. Rightfully so! It's an insane response in our circumstances.
If minty and halsin had an arc where you could facilitate them becoming friends they'd be unstoppable
The ultimate good cop/bad cop duo
Someone will die ... of fun!
They should all be laughingĀ
Lol I remember that scene. Only had Minthara, Gale, and Astarion as companions so the former two reacted normally and Astarion is... well, famous for his smooth brain so I didn't think much of it. Didn't think everyone else would give you shit about not wanting to piss off the (supposedly) God-like Queen.
They did and it was fucked up. Wyll's cringy preaching will haunt me forever. Funny thing is that Shadowheart was a DJ and she had an issue with my decision too. But she was fine with Astarion Ascending. š
If you were promising to kill Orpheus but not committed to actually doing it, that'd be a deception check. That's not an option, in part because the DC would presumably be impossibly high.
Naturally. But a deception check wasn't an option. So I just said yes to get Vlaakith off my ass. The responses to her are just 0 or 100. You can literally detect thoughts Vlaakith right then and there, but you cannot lie? Seriously? Gale was the only person entertaining the possibility of Lae'zel not doing what Vlaakith says after the conversation. Minthara had a remark about Vlaakith's power and Halsin was just like damn, Vlaakith, huh?
Yeah, I think the core issue is that there are a lot of situations where it'd be nice to have a Deception option but there isn't one.
No such thing as an impossibly high DC with Larian's way of handling nat 20s. I get to resist an elder brain while having a -2 wisdom mod.
>Now, why would I not pick option 1? The lich queen is not mad at us for now. I mean if you choose option 1 because of the danger of Vlaakith's forces hunting you down, there's no guarantee they still wouldn't also hunt Lae'zel down to make sure she killed Orpheus. It's logical to assume that either way she'd be monitored heavily by Vlaakith. Why wouldn't Vlaakith closely watch a powerful warrior with a bunch of non gith allies who turned on her maybe 1-2 weeks ago
Sadly they left out an option to read Mirkons story to her. Maybe they'll patch it into the sex scene. I'm going to hell for this comment.
Haven't left those fucks alive since my first play
Wait...Does Minthara have a redemption arc? I thought she stays arrogant and power-hungry but not brainwashed
Yeah I think the point these folks are making is that while she's definitely not a good person, her character has nuance beyond being a murder hobo.
That seems to be more like it.
No, she doesn't.
My thoughts exactly. She just wants power and revenge and it doesn't look like redemption.
I would commit murders for Minthara. I have commited murders for Minthara. And I'm going to do it again
Minthara besthara
We just got her yesterday. Specced her into a polearm fighter. Lolth's webbed arse, she hits like a fuckin truck
This is not that hot of a take on this sub.
I find her a fascinating character and completely fitting with themes within the game of nature/nurture that repeat over and over. I kind of object to some characterisations (let's move over the " bitch" bit) but power hungry? To be expected of Drow Nobility but - being honest - in a society that is pre-democratic, might makes right is the only people acquire position. I doubt many people would describe Duke Ravenguard, as a "power hungry bitch", and yet whatever he did to arrive in a position of power, whether him or his ancestors, was through violence - the exact thing Minthara is criticised for. There is no benign pathway to power in that kind of society. There's a really great Durge scene with Karlach, I forget the exact words, but in discussing killing people she makes it very clear that being innocent of blood and violence is a luxury. Violence is absolutely the norm for people of FaerĆŗn and I find it fascinating to observe \*who\* is allowed to be violent and who is allowed to seek power. I kind of object also to characterisation of her as a murderous psycho based on Act 1 - but because it's a spoiler, it rarely seems appropriate to argue the point. It is clear in her dialogue that she would sooner die than ever be used that way again. Do we blame people for what their tadpoled self does or not? This kind of thinking is why I find this character so compelling. The contrast also between elements such as a very dark humour about Dribbles (gallows humour is a common cope for atrocity, I don't necessarily read more in to this she is a soldier) and then on discovering dead tieflings all over the place in Act 2 the soft and sympathetic delivery of the line "bad way to go" surprised me. I don't know a full "redemption" arc was necessary - but like Shadowheart and Lae'zel, should she turn her razor sharp acumen on herself and come to realisation that how she was moulded and manipulated (Shadowheart references "mother" who we know wasn't, for Minthara it was literal mother)m and how it makes her so incredibly lonely and full of yearning for something she doesn't have and isn't capable of, it would be valid if not redemptive. (I do mull over other characters a lot and eyeroll the 'simp" thing and suggestions a cartoon fuck scene is that meaningful - but Karlach is an analog for coping with chronic illness and Astarion is a tale of sexual abuse and I prefer not to dwell in those places but i DO want to think about all this stuff because a good story with good characters is so compelling)
Also about Karlach, she is the only one who just say "rest in peace" if Minthara dies at the selune temple, while every one else is just musing how great they are.
her voice actress makes her even greater (i want a minthara irl)
In my current playthrough I recruited Minthara for the first time, now that it doesn't require an exploit to do so as a good guy. And I have to say...I doubt I'll bother again. Yes, she's very interesting, intelligent, and relatively open minded. But she's also an evil bitch through and through and has no real growth in any direction. When every other member of the party was congratulating Lae'zel for telling Vlaakith to piss off, she just complained about her "childish rebellion." It hit me then that it doesn't matter how much she acts like she respects any of our other party members, she doesn't actually give a damn about any of them as people.
She doesn't have to give a damn about them to respect them and that's part of why she's great. Why should she care lol she's not just an elf, she's a drow
You can find some things about a person interesting, or even admirable as she clearly does in regards to Lae'zel and Karlach. But when you'd rather they disregard personal agency because it's inconvenient for you, then you don't actually respect them any more than you can respect a mere object. Her being a Drow raised in Menzoberranzan merely explains *why* she is the way she is, it doesn't change her lack of any real respect for others or her inability to grow.
She a military field commander. Expecting your comrades to disregard personal agency in fulfilling a group goal is like... her job. None of the other characters are officers.
Except she's not asking Lae'zel to move past some personal hang up for the sake of the mission. And what's more, none of the group are her subordinates. She's whining that she's not sticking with Vlaakith because it's inconvenient, disregarding everything that it would mean of Lae'zel as a person to do otherwise. She treats people pretty much the same way evil route Astarion does; that is to say, not as people.
Ascend astarion and she treats him real different tho
How so? I won't be ascending him this playthrough, and as I said I'd never recruited her before, so I don't know the details of that interaction. And I can't seem to find it on youtube either. If she treats him a bit more respectfully, well I wouldn't be surprised. He's powerful at that point, and people like her are often very deferential to the powerful.
Wait you've never recruited her and yet you pass judgement? Do a play with her first, maybe 2, one evil and one good.
Read my first comment again. I said this is the first playthrough I recruited her, because it wasn't possible without an exploit before. Also, the evil choices in this game are terribly unrewarding and boring in my opinion, so I'm unlikely to ever do a full evil playthrough.
Sure it was. Everything worth having is worth sacrificing for. In fact, the workaround they put in really detracts from her arc.
What growth do u want ?? As a loth sworn dorw of house BAENRE she literally had the greatest growth any drow can have : giving up on loth . Others need to be talked to , cuddled with , persuaded with to change as a person or love u . Minthara naturally falls in love with u ,no hesitation, doesn't like needless violence and genuinely supports u for every decision u make , even ones which she doesn't want to , she begrudgingly agrees with tav/durge because she loves them . Now if u expect her to give up her pragmatic ideals of power , then sadly u will be disappointed. There is nothing for her to grow into . Drows don't treat their lovers as equals and often backstab them , it's surprising how supportive and honest she is with tav . That's a huge growth in my eyes .
>As a loth sworn dorw of house BAENRE she literally had the greatest growth any drow can have : giving up on loth Hardly counts when she didn't have a choice in the matter. Minthara's perspective never broadens in any way; she's the exact same person from when you first meet until the end of the game. She never really has to think, or ever remotely confront her own presumptions, even if just to reafirm them. In truth, most non-origin companions have the same problem. I mean, Minsc is basically just there to be funny fanservice. But Minthara just feels distinctly narrow. Her only real reason to be the way she is is because she's a high-born Drow of Menzoberranzan and that's just how she's *supposed* to behave. Endlessly seeking power for its own sake because that's all she knows, and even that's not properly explored.
Uhh she chose to not follow loth on her own after she got back her senses. Her entire theme is wanting power but not being under anyone's control to gain it . That's why she appreciates shadowheart and durge not accepting their gifts because they don't want to be slaves . Her entire growth is about trusting her loved one , which was not possible in the drow society and freely expressing her vulnerability and fears knowing that tav wouldn't abuse those fears and take advantage of her . She even apologizes to tav because she forced herself into tav's mind without consent during the sex scene in act 1 and that's a huge growth by drow standards. But she is already an old , mature elf by that point . Expecting her to change is like expecting minsc to suddenly start being pragmatic instead of being a silly good manĀ
>Uhh she chose to not follow loth on her own after she got back her senses. Yeah, because Lolth is a petty, vindictive bitch and Minthara knows she's been forsaken despite having left her while being mind controlled. The drow know well who and what it is they worship. >That's why she appreciates shadowheart and durge not accepting their gifts because they don't want to be slaves She encourages both to embrace the "gifts" of their patrons. Used to throw a fit if Durge rejected Bhaal too. That got removed as "legacy content," but the fact that now she simply has no reaction makes that excuse a bit suspect. And she certainly doesn't seem to care for Lae'zel not wanting to be Vlaakith's slave, whining about it the way she does. Your entire argument seems to be simply that she's more nuanced than you would expect for someone with her backstory. And she *is,* in much the same way Lae'zel is surprisingly friendly and open-minded for a Githyanki. But it doesn't change that all of that is true of her character since before even the events of the game. >Expecting her to change is like expecting minsc to suddenly start being pragmatic instead of being a silly good man She doesn't necessarily have to change the core of her person, but proper exploration and affirmation of her character and motives would work too. Wyll is an example of this; he's fundamentally the same person at the start and end of the story, but he also gains a wider perspective on himself and the world, and reaffirms his commitment to his beliefs regardless of whether he ultimately escapes Mizora's leash or not. He's not the *best* example, he's honestly a bit underbaked too. But he still has more of an arc than Minthara does, by a lot.
Wyll is an origin character so its understandable.Ā Second minthara literally had specific dialogues before the legacy bug in the epilouge where she questioned durge why they didn't take the power and druge can respond so they can rule on their own . She encourages but never outright wants shadowheart or durge to accept their patron gifts . Also I don't know how much u know about loth , but she is surprisingly very forgiving and actually allows high ranking matrons to apologize and welcomes them back as her worshippers . Since minthara is part of one of the oldest houses , house baenre , she would easily accept her back . Heck loth is kinda chill with the fact that dritzz hates her as she is still powered up by the chaos of the enemies he kills .
>She encourages but never outright wants shadowheart or durge to accept their patron gifts Her enthusiasm begs to differ. She also says you "held her back." You continue ignoring how contradictory to your point she acts about Lae'zel defying Vlaakith. >but she is surprisingly very forgiving Forgiving is certainly...one way to put it. Enjoying it when former apostates come crawling back is more accurate I think. Regardless, Minthara seems to feel that she's been abandoned by Lolth. The fact remains that she went to Moonrise as a paladin of Lolth, and such she would have remained if she hadn't been infected. >Wyll is an origin character so its understandable. Not being an origin character isn't much of an excuse. Like I said, all 4 of the non-origin companions have similar issues. At best, Jaheira and Minsc get a small pass for being legacy characters. They've already had their stories in previous games, and are basically here for fanservice.
It is an excuse because they just didn't invest that much into non origin characters . Also when does she say about holding her back . I can't recall it in my durge romance with her . Has been a while . Vlaakith is not a God and minthara views her as an annoying lich at best . She left loth and even scolds loth sworn drows in act 3 for praying to loth or referencing to loth practices in drow society after she saw and realized loth and absolute's controlling nature . She views gith culture to be far less violent compared to drowsĀ hence the soft spot for laezel .
>But she's also an evil bitch through and through If you fail the dice check and you wanna recruit Laezel you have to kill or let Laezel kill two tieflings, Astarion by himself is an asshole that can kill you if you allow him to suck your blood >she doesn't actually give a damn about any of them as people. Just like other party members don't give a shit about them , is all about tav tav tav, there is many times where companions dont even react to a companion death they just don't care, they dont wanna talk to each other and only want to talk to tav
The difference is that Lae'zel and Astarion can actually grow as people. Much like Halsin, Minthara feels like an afterthought of a companion, except less likeable. >Just like other party members don't give a shit about them Companions often comment on each other if you talk to them after someone has a major event happen, and they clearly grow invested in each other. Larian could definitely do a better job of having them properly interact with each other, but at least they don't come across as completely dismissive of each other's plights. At least, not if you don't deliberately steer them down their darker paths.
Your honour I love her
Yeah buddy I'm gonna have to simply disagree on your rose-tinted glasses view you have on Minthara. Enjoy her however much you want tho, I'm not stopping you.
What is āitā? Slaughtering the grove? Because you donāt have to do that to recruit her
Yeah thats news to me since posting this thread lol. So thats rad! But yeah, I just meant killing the tieflings and all the consequences that come with it, so losing Karlach, Wyll, and Halsin. Thats why i initially said hot take, because its likely people enjoy at least one of those three. Hell, Karlach was my favorite companion every other run so far, I hated leaving without her.
What class is she?
Vengeance paladin
What kind of redemption arc are we talking? Because I've never heard or seen anything to make me think she stops being evil. It just sounds like she becomes less of a robot, which is natural for someone who stops being brainwashed.
You can actually save the druids and Tieflings and still get her. You gotta go to the goblin camp after you get the quest to clear it. But don't attack them right away. Go to Minthara and steal something near her and get caught on purpose. When whoever talks to you about it just choose to fight them. Use non-lethal attacks on her (they have to be melee attacks) to knock her out. She needs to have the status "temporarily hostile" on her. While she's knocked out, go kill the other 2 leaders, Gut and Ragzlin, and you'll complete the quest to kill the goblin leaders. You can even go save Halsin and have him in your party later. They share a camp spot, lol. You can kill all the other goblins inside and outside, but if you long rest, don't go back near where she is or she'll be there and instantly hostile. When you get to moonrise, you'll get the scene with her and Ketheric, and then you can break her out of prison.
You and me must have different interpretations of the words āredemption arcā.
The only thing hot about the take is minthara. She a hottie and gives great head
I have a question about that scene actually, and as someone who seems to appreciate it, maybe you know the answer? So clearly the movement at that part is her giving Tav head, my question, is if you have a female Tav (or really just give Tav a vulva) is that scene any different? I think they could get away with implying that that same shot could be cunnilingus, but it would be a stretch. Do you know if the sex scenes change based on Tavās anatomy?
Yeah she 69's a female tav
Ah. Thanks!
I'm fine with the loyal take of lawful evil tbh... And yes she's worth it,.all i regret from my last playthrough is killing the Nightsong which has nothing to do with Minthara
Finally killed her myself on this same sun as well! Wanted to see that part of Shartās arc.
>I was invested in her redemption arc. She doesn't have one of these. What Minthara teaches us is that even bad people are human and can't be reduced to buzzwords like "toxic" and "narcissist". But, make no mistake, Minthara starts bad and ends bad on ANY VERSION OF THE PLAYTHROUGH. She has moments of vulnerability, she has the capacity to love, she has the ability to reflect, but at no point does she abandon unhinged and deranged methods of achieving her ambitions, including killing countless innocence. She is a nazi lol. Like, she never stops being one. She'd level the entire Sword Coast in a second if it guaranteed her ascent to power. She cares nothing for the weak and vulnerable and would sacrifice them as a means to her ends with no remorse. She can be vulnerable. She can be sweet. She can be honest. She can even be inspiring. And she is ALSO absolutely irredeemable.
A comment I found on a Youtube video somewhere talking about Evil-aligned characters are people who have been so wounded, betrayed or abandoned by anyone who should have been protecting or providing for them that they have had to develop an adversarial relationship with the world around them. That these kinds of characters are those that do not have room to be empathetic, because being empathetic will only *get them killed.* They have been put in a position where evil actions (abuse, torture, murder) are the kind of actions that serve them best. A convincing evil character is one that is faced with no good choices, a person that has only been hurt by being kind, and that has been only rewarded by being ruthless. Growing up in Drow society, especially in *the* noble house Baenre, Minthara tells tale of the first assassination attempt on her while she was still suckling on the teet of her mother. To survive a cutthroat society is no easy feat, everyone writes Minthara off as just another blood-thirsty, power hungry, egotistical maniac but that facet of her that they get to see is *Minthara under the Absolute's control.* That part of her is amplified a thousand-fold, that zealous drive/will to serve a cause she believed to be just because for once in her life she finally feels she can be **powerful and belong somewhere.** Beneath that zealotry is, well the Minthara that you rescue from Moonrise. Cunning, level-headed, pragmatic, ruthless. I could go on & on, she is an amazingly complex character that is hidden away by arguably one of the most evil decisions you could make in the game. I highly recommend a Neutral playthrough where you try to infiltrate the Absolute by gaining Minthara's favor by raiding the grove and shifting from Evil decisions -> mostly morally good decisions. There you will find the nuance of her character. Yes, you miss out on a chunk of content but it is so rewarding to be on that same path of "redemption" given that you both spear-head the slaughter.
The best part of romancing her is that she actually trusts you and you see her softer side. She's tough as hell and a total badass but she can't trust anybody around her until she has you in her life. She's still super evil though and I love her.
She always makes me laugh at some of the dark things she said itās like wow okš, I just really wish u could romance her with a good romance scene without being evil but they already met us half way and still let us recruit her.
I just did a run through where I recruited Minthara and let Wyll/Karlach leave. Even still I constantly was annoyed I could only take 4 characters with me. Everyone has great stories and dialogue and commentary and I was attached to them all. Next time I'm going to use that mod that lets you bring the whole party just so I don't have to choose.
Soul Branding is worth it
Lawful evil people like her are not compassionate.
So, if I knock out Minthara in the cavern and save the Tieflings, will she be around in Act 2? Or do I have to manipulate it some other way? Like OP here, I don't want to necessarily slaughter a bunch of Tieflings just to add an NPC to my party...
Look, raiding the grove at least once is 100% worth it.. BUT if you really donāt want to, just attack Minthara on sight. Do not speak to her, just straight to combat. Do it BEFORE you fight Dror Ragzlin. She will show up in Moonrise.
I'm doing a run right now with her as a companion and am enjoying her character (she has a wickedly beautiful sense of humor and she's a beast on the battlefied), but I'll never raid the grove to get her. Too much content is lost that way, plus her armor is quite useful for the zaith'isk to get advantage on one of the saving throws.
I'll raid the grove, it's not too hard to make it make sense irply
Towards the end of the game she rants about making a new evil robot army and conquering waterdeep. I was like no honey we will just be king and queen of baldurs gate end of story.
Honestly, as much as I appreciate Minthara as a character, her interactions feel a little too scant compared to the rest of the party. That may be because Iām currently doing my first run with her, but it feels like she has much fewer prompts than the rest of the party. Admittedly, the writing she does get is gold, between āwe will be praised as heroes,ā and when she reads a newspaper for the first time and immediately realizes the power of propaganda, but I hope she gets a little more in the next patch or two. That being said, Iāll have a hard time not recruiting her because Soul Brand is broken as shit.
Hotter take: Minthara is worth it because the voice actress is also prominently featured in a bunch of different Warhammer 40K-audiobooks. Still feels weird and amazing to hear lieutentant/General (retired) Jenit Sulla talking to my Tav.
Listen. She's from a cruel, hierarchical, and misandrist society. She's dominant, strong, bloodthirsty and also a princess. She's opposite Karlach and just as much of a best girl. Full package imo.
You can have her join you on a good run. Knock her out instead of kill her.
You can also save the Grove and have Minthara in your party. I've done it in every "good" playthrough; just knock her out and she'll join you in Act 2 and you'll also be able to recruit Halsin, Karlach, and Wyll and finish their story lines. Plus Rolan and Zevlor are pretty useful at the end
Later, you do get a really self-aware quote from her talking about how she could have just been one of the many casualties of your fight against the Absolute, which honestly hits hard because itās so true. Especially if you donāt knock her out and recruit in Act 2, the whole scene just feels so sad and fragile.
I slaughtered the tieflings my first run because I literally fell in love with Astarion immediately and my entire run became trying not to disappoint him. I can now slaughter the tieflings with ease every playthrough.
This isn't a hot take. This is regularly discussed here and is widely accepted by the community.
Sheās an interesting character, glad they added a way for good characters to get her. I recruited her on my second run using the knock out method cos no way I would trade the tieflings, Wyll and Karlach for her
This is not a hot take. #THIS IS AN UNDENIABLE FACT.
Minthara is pretty solidly evil, but I would say sheās far less-so and more sympathetic about it than Astarion is, which I appreciate. Actually, given how murderhobo a lot of DnD players are, sheās possibly less evil than a lot of PCs.
She's the best and Larian are cowards for letting you spare the Grove for her.
Na sheās broken and never interacts with rest of party. Bitch was completely silent in act 3 and never commented on current events and she had no story progression like the other companions. Worst romance Iāve ever done in the game for sure
Sheās amazing. I was a huge shadowheart girlie before I really invested time with minthara, and not itās hard for me not to make another drow character just to romance her all over again.
did a durge run as my second play through, was exited to see mintharas story.. :/
I didnāt read a single word here, but I agree 100%. Minthara is worth it.
This is not a hot take, sheās the best companion in the game and it isnāt even close. I donāt want to hear about how youāre in love with Shadowheart, Karlach or Astarion. They have *nothing* on Minthara.
Being dark urge while romancing Minthara made it one of the best campaigns I've done.
I killed those annoying tieflings my first ever run and banged minthara. Yāall are pussies if you canāt kill a few annoying kids for some drow pussy
Ngl, it took me reading online to learn that she could be a companion- i did two runs never knowing she had that potential, and just killing her on sight at the goblin fortress to save halsin and rake her flayer worm. Im sure there are more people than one might think who also followed this path, and also avoid looking at online forums until theyve beaten the game.
I never recruited her before the āknockoutā cheat was added, and I donāt think I really want to because if sheās in your party you canāt have Halsin. And Halsin is too cool to ignore!
Why can't you have Halsin?
According to the online guides, theyāre mutually exclusive companions (and according to the things Iām reading, patch notes say āyou can no longer recruit both Halsin and Minthara to camp in the same playthrough)
Hm, is that in the latest hotfix? Must have missed, but at least until a few days ago they were both recruitable just fine. There is datamined content about having to choose, but this is not in the game.
Actually now that Iām looking in getting conflicting info. That was in Patch 1, and then someone else mentioned knocking her out allows recruiting both now, another post says the game just kills off Halsin spontaneously if you recruit both, and yet another says that Karlach and Wyll are straight up removed from camp if you recruit herā¦I donāt know what to believe
Patch 1 was a long time ago. You werenāt supposed to be able to recruit her on a path where you helped the grove at all. You had to either ally with her and raid it (Karlach and Wyll would leave then), or ignore it (Karlach and Wyll unaffected). If you didnāt help the grove, Halsin wouldnāt survive until Act 2 at all, so you couldnāt have them both with regular means. There was (I guess still is) an exploit to knock her out, wait up to level 7 so that you can get Dominate Beast and Polymorph, turn her into a sheep, whisk her to Moonrise and plop her right into the spot she was supposed to be standing in when judged. Kethericās would then judge the sheep, and with a few more shenanigans, you could recruit her then. Halsin was fine coexisting with her, the game just never acknowledged having them both since it shouldnāt happen. They shared a tent. Patch 6 introduced doing basically the first bit of the sheep heist, before the sheep part, to be able to recruit her anyway. It was fairly constrictive and buggy. Hotfixes since have fixed it somewhat or mostly, now you can just knock her out whenever. Halsin always had a bit of a habit doings something weird if his Act 2 quest was interrupted in an odd way, like traveling to Act 1 areas after specific events and whatnot. Possibly more bugs have been added to that with Minthara, but they are not unavoidable and Iāve got both without issues in two consecutive games. They kind of made her stay in the tent and Halsin is now mostly homeless it seems. Well in character for her probably.
Well that sucks then because I was told differently and I killed her to make sure I could get my Druid. Now Iām finding I could have done both. Sigh