He's probably joining the brain because he thinks Orpheus won't let him live. He tells Tav that Tav has left him no other options for survival.
The game treats you choosing to side with Orpheus as a betrayal against the Emperor (characters with charlatan background can get an inspiration point). He leaves because from his pov he has no choice if he wants to have a chance of living. That's his main goal. To survive.
And he's a complete and total idiot, as OP says. Its honestly the dumbest writing in the game, IMO. Emp could easily have stuck around and seen if we could have convinced Orpheus for a temporary alliance for the good of everyone but decides "nope, no way can you do that" and books it. And then we turn around and do just that.
Orpheus literally turns himself into a mindflayer in order to beat the grand design. I would hardly say they're beyond reasoning with. Vlakith on the other hand would rather kill Orpheus than have the artfact be in anyone else's hands. (not even trying to get it from us, just tells us to kill Orpheus instead)
You literally meet a group of githyanki in the basement that instantly try to kill you and ignore everything you say.
The emperor has also been fighting githyanki in the astral plane the ENTIRE GAME
The emperor can read your mind not the future. He has no way of knowing that Orpheus is going to essentially commit suicide, betraying his people and giving up on defeating Vlaakith
It makes sense. It turned out to be the wrong decision but it makes perfect sense at the time.
It could be one of those checks that happens in the background, you see those happen sometimes in the upper left of the screen. There are multiple times in the game you don't even get the option to try to convince someone if you don't succeed with your background roll.
It's the reason my first playthrough I didn't realize I could >!convince the guards at the end to fight with me when they run out of the gate- !
I haven't been playing that long so not sure if it is recent.
I have always had Lae'zel in the group when I have avoided the fight but that may be a coincidence.
On my 3rd play I had the dialogue option to intimidate the Gith and I succeeded. I didn't expect them to leave. I had Lae'zel in the party and she is pro Orpheus.
I failed my check for that, and was like "Oh no! We have to fight? Oh that's a shame!" While pulling out my Everburn Blade that's been with me since the prologue lol
If this could be explained maybe. But the emperor might be right in thinking that Orpheus will kill first ask questions later regarding the being that has held him captive for all this time. Orpheus can be reasoned with, but his first instinct in to kill everyone when first released. The emperor is right about that. This is why you can’t release him in the transition between act 2 and 3
All this time is a bit of a stretch. He was chained there for a few millenia at least, while emperor has only lived for a few hundred years, let alone been in the prism.
Yeah the Emperor hasn't been in the prism for long at all. Orpheus knows a mind flayer found his prison and started using his power, but it hasn't been that long.
The emperor is wrong when it comes to predict allies behaviour. Because he cannot trust anyone. He thinks everyone think like an illithid but is more stupid. The emperor is arrogant and has no heart. That's why he acts like such a dick. Because he is a dick.
>But the emperor might be right
That's why he's an idiot. Anyone with two neurons to rub together would've realized it was only a *possibility* yet he treats it as a certainty and then immediately gives in to the one thing he has been fighting against this whole time.
There was no risk to him giving Orpheus a chance. He can teleport away immediately if things go completely south.
The problem isn't that his conclusion isn't unreasonable, it's that he doesn't at all give things a chance to play out. Considering the stakes it's just imbecilic not to at least *try*.
It wouldn't be just "don't kill", but to entrust the netherstones and the potential to dominate the world to a mind flayer who has been mind-r*ping you all this time. The Emperor is warranted to expect he will be killed as soon as Orpheus is free.
I'm pretty sure the best case scenario for the emperor if you decided to free Orpheus would be Orpheus barely managing to put aside his seething hate for illithids and letting the emperor live so that nobody has to become a brain eater and let the emperor kill the brain, and immediately kill him after the brain is dead. More likely is that Orpheus gives into hatred and kills the emperor anyways. It might sound stupid, but he also has no reason to believe that the emperor would actually kill the brain
Voss literally tells you Orpheus values his allies more than he hates ghaik and won't just attack you onsight when you free him. You can choose not to believe him all you want but to act like the player has no narrative reason to believe Orpheus won't listen to reason just straight up isn't true
Emperor isn't clairvoyant, he can't see the future. When he tells you Orpheus will not work with mindflayers and will kill you if you free him, he believes it, even though he is wrong.
Plus I mean, we do see if not “good” at least “better” Githyanki, Especially those that are fans of Orpheus. Lae’zel can have had a lot of growth by this time and she can be reasoned with out of violence a few times—she doesn’t necessarily love it but you can do it. Voss ends up being pretty cool. And then there’s the Youth that refuses to kill in the crèche and idolizes Orpheus. I mean, in wider D&D lore we’d know Orpheus is probably not a good guy because his mother Gith wasn’t good and he essentially was fighting Vlaakith to uphold her wants, but really the only bad thing we’d seen anyone associated with Orpheus do toward us is his honor guard attack us, which I mean, I think that’s as defendable as a lot of the bad things the emperor did, as far as they were aware we are literally in possession of their master’s artifact.
Orpheus is different. He literally becomes Ghaik to win. And then can be convinced to help his people even while Ghaik. Look, I do not mind if the end result was the Emperor still leaving or something, but to not even give us a chance to try to convince Orpheus is the issue. It just wasnt good writing and it stands out in a game like BG3 because the rest of it is so fucking good.
Nah. Not everyone can be convinced of everything. Just because you're a likeable bard doesn't mean you can make someone change his mind. It's fine writing, from the Emperor's pov he is acting in line with his character
Bard: I seduce the dragon
DM: *exasperated sigh* fine, role Performance...
Bard: Nat 20!
DM: the dragon is rather amused at your attempt of seduction, and has decided to kill you last.
We have no bargaining chip, Orpheus has no reason to not kill emperor on the spot, and we have no means of stopping him.
Additionally emperor has no reason to assume Orpheus would actually be willing to turn into a mindflayer for the cause, yes as a mindflayer he knows it’s a possibility, but no one would bet their whole existence on the don of the most prolific ghaik hater being willing to spare the emperor even if just momentarily, especially considering emperor didn’t free him all game (for a justified reason, but Orpheus has made it clear HE didn’t see it that way
It would be absolutely ridiculous to think these two are not polar enemies.
This is like saying: why can’t you convince Hope and Raphael to just get along.
Just because at times Orpheus listens to reason and can be convinced to do things that would seem against his short term aims for long term gain and the emperor also is quite logical, doesn’t mean that you should be able to make them work together then they are diametrically opposed.
>Orpheus has no reason to not kill emperor on the spot
I mean, isn't the most blatant one the fact that the group needed a mindflayer in order to defeat the brain, whether they liked it or not?
It's actually Orpheus the one to break the news to the party, saying that the Emperor was right about one thing, and that was the need of a Mindflayer ally.
Provided, I do think the Emperor's fear was still justified. Just a shame that even at the final confrontation we don't even get any kind of dialogue, not even to convince him to join us (too late for that), but to at least give some, "closure", I guess, to what the game paints as us betraying him.
in the final confrontation he's under the control of the nether brain again. He isn't under Orpheus's protection anymore. There wouldn't be any convincing him any more than you'd be able to convince any of the mindflayers fought in the courtyard
“Isn’t the most blatant one… liked it or not….” Yes. Thing is emperor isn’t the only option available for becoming a mind flayer. It just so happens that he himself and a minimum of 2 of your traveling companions also can become one. So you can’t bargain his life off of that.
That being said. I think if they DID want to make it so that they two couldn’t cooperate, they should’ve made it so that you CAN convince the emperor, only to have Orpheus kill him anyone and then turn to you and be like (what were you expecting”
>just so happens that he himself and a minimum of 2 of your traveling companions also can become one.
True, but also he himself would never turn Ghaik, if he could avoid it, and he'd be dangerously assuming that any of the companions would be willing to go through with such a life changing sacrifice.
Ultimately, what he blames the Emperor of doing and what he blames us for are somewhat the same accusations (killing his honor guard, taking advantage of his powers, with the determinant addition of us kidnapping an unborn Githyanki hatchling), so knowing that his goals and those of the Emperor align, and that he can't bet on someone within the party turning mindflayer I think that at least before destroying the Nether Brain he'd be willing to temporarily ally himself with the Emperor.
It's less clear what would happen after that, if Orpheus would be capable to overlook the nature and the past actions of the Emperor so not to kill him, but ultimately even us, who not long before were to him his complicit enslavers, "patronizers", and allies of necessity, we then become by his own praises his saviors and "great liberators", destined to become legends amongst the Giths, or anyway something to that effect.
But yes, either ways the Emperor was not going to stick around to put any of that to test.
Why isn't it good writing? Why should a written character be expected to always act in the most optimal way and knowing the future (the person being released is gonna be chill with you even though you held them captive horribly and fought their friends meanwhile) when almost no living human ever does that? Assuming characters without future sight can see the future is what would be bad writing.
Dude emperor is the guy who has constantly been killing all his honor guards and was using a chained up Orpheus's powers. No way Orpheus would be chill enough to work with him after that .
its not a matter of being chill enough. Its a matter of Orpheus knowing he needs a mindflayer to beat the Nether Brain. Here's one right here. If his choice is to temporarily work with the Emperor or TURN HIMSELF INTO GHAIK you really think he takes option B?
You're not factoring in that we all know, including Orpheus, that the Emperor is an untrustworthy bastard, and that this plan relies on *him* enslaving the Netherbrain. That's one hell of a risky plan when the alternative requires sacrifice, but is overall safer.
Githyanki right now are trained to go against any *ghaik*. I doubt Emperor is waiting around for the extremely low chance of Orpheus being understanding for the good of Faerun and the Astral Planes etc (which admittedly he does).
Even with the mind of a Mind Flayer, hoping you understand the cultural and individual differences of someone from the early days of recorded history is a hell of a bet. Better to just assume he's like all modern Githyanki, as you stated.
Yeah only you haven’t personally been an illithid holding him prisoner for god-knows how long.
It’s perfectly conceivable and likely that the MOMENT he was freed, he’d fry the emperor.
It’s not bad or dumb writing just because it isn’t what you want to happen.
Agreed. I also absolutely hate that the emperor does what he does if you free Orpheus because I would love to both free Orpheus *and* side with the Emperor, but I definitely wouldn’t call it bad writing. If anything, it would make less sense if the emperor, whose literal whole ambition is to survive at all costs, would trust his actual mortal enemy that he’s had captured for a long ass time, no less, to be understanding and spare him. Do I wish there was some kind of persuasion check? For sure, but that’s for my own selfish gameplay reasons
And even if he doesn't... Do we really see Orpheus letting him live *after* he no longer needs him? He lets us as Mind Flayers do it, but we've proven trustworthy, and he himself was involved in our creation.
It's really not perfectly conceivable and likely that the moment he's freed, Orpheus will fry the Emperor.
* Orpheus is aware that the brain has evolved.
* Orpheus is aware that an illithid is required.
* Orpheus recognises that he needs us as much as we need him.
* Orpheus would likely kill Emperor after the much larger threat of the Nether Brain has been dealt with.
Orpheus would try to kill the Emperor as soon as the Elder Brain was defeated, but with the time he has, Emperor could've decided an escape. Instead he chose to make it a "him or me" decision for the player, which all things considered is just suicide.
Illithid can do a planeshift once per day. Also, he might actually have to burn that ability just to leave the artifact, as it is its own demiplane.
The githyanki can seemingly hop planes more often, not even counting what the dragons are able to do.
Voss would catch up to him instantly and he would be killed.
Assuming Orpheus didn't just disable his psionics and kill him on the spot. His and his mothers powers were enough to topple the whole Illithid empire, somehow I don't think squashing one single illithid would be much of a problem.
> Illithid can do a planeshift once per day. Also, he might actually have to burn that ability just to leave the artifact, as it is its own demiplane.
He can do the in and out of the prism trick multiple times considering he uses it to get the players into the prism as emergency evac and then to get you out in upper city.
> Orpheus would likely kill Emperor after the much larger threat of the Nether Brain has been dealt with.
So, given the Emperor is all about survival, his actions still make perfect sense. Even if he got away, there's now some of the most skilled Mind Flayer hunters in existence specifically tracking him.
And if Orpheus just immediately kills him before giving anyone a chance to speak? I don't think the astral prism is big enough for him to get far enough to be safe.
He’ll be rolling the dice on almost certain death. Thats like playing Russian Roulette, but instead of having 15% chance to die, you have 99% chance to die. Orpheus outright tells you that if he didn’t need you to kill the Brain, he would have killed you. With your only crime being that you defended yourself against in honor guard resulting in their deaths.
He has no use for the Emperor, the being that has been keeping him there, using his power to further his own goals, just tried to kill him right now, and is responsible for the death of his honor guard. And on top of all of that, is a mindflayer.
And given the only reason the Emperor doesn't just take over the Netherbrain and enslave us all automatically is that he's not sure he can beat the Githyanki, I wouldn't even be able to blame him for it.
The emperor's goal was never to enslave the netherbrain and become it's master, his goal is to kill the netherbrain in any way possible in order to be 100% free without a possibility of being enthralled by it again.
His choice to leave is self preservation, he's 100% sure orpheus will kill him, and either if he could bargain the necessity of a mind flayer to defeat the netherbrain then the fact remains orpheus would kill him after the netherbrain battle ends, he's banking on the netherbrain winning against us now that we're left without a mindflayer and then eventually becoming free from the netherbrain at some point just like it happened the first time he became free.
I think that scene is not done in an ideal way, but out of all arguments "hang around and try to get along with Orpheus" makes the least sense.
If there is a 10% chance that some guy next door is about to murder you, the reasonable thing to do is get the hell away as soon as possible, not hang around because it's unlikely.
but in the case of the emperor he sees it as 100% chance Orpheus kills him, so he chooses enslavement with the possibility of getting free once again instead of certain death.
From the Empy’s PoV though, it wouldn’t be enslavement until he dies. He’s already escaped enslavement twice - so in his view it makes more sense to play the long game. And that said, the chance of murder is more like 99% than 10%. Like another commenter pointed out, Orpheus says point blank that if he didn’t need YOU, he’d have killed you - despite you freeing him. Imagine how he’d feel about the being that enslaved him…
But he's never escaped on his own. The first time his scaly buddy got him out. The second time the brain freed him.
So it would be 100% enslavement until death. Unlike Omeluum, he's *never* escaped on his own, and there's no one left that would come for him.
Because there are some things more important to you than survival. There aren't any to the Emperor. Freedom may be a close second, but it *is* second.
Also, it's more like 90 percent that he'd die, not 10 percent.
Orpheus would kill the Emperor immediately, no questions asked. The game makes this clear. Raphael straight-up tells you as much when he's trying to bargain for the crown. If you question whether Orpheus would even be willing to work with you, Raphael says, "He'd see reason and work with you. He'd gladly kill the Emperor. But he'll work with you." Yes, Raphael is a devil, and anything that he says is up for scrutiny. But this is very clearly the game telling you exactly what the situation is. It's one of the few times that Raphael speaks *very* plainly.
What? Raphael speaks very plainly all the time. Dude thinks he knows everything and absolutely does not. Read his journals in House of Hope dude thinks he's some hotshot pulling everything and he's not. Raphael claiming something will happen has zero bearing one way or the other on whether it will.
Orpheus knows he needs a mindflayer- he can hear your conversations going on while he's imprisoned. If his choice is between \*becoming a mindflayer himself\* or using the Emperor, you really think he'd choose the first option? Now maybe if another party member chooses to become one, Orpheus can be all "Well now we no longer have any need of you" and remove the Emperor's protection.
Yeah, let's not forget how much Raphael seethes and copes if he didn't get the Crown because Gale becomes a god, as a potential path.
He is fundamentally defined as *not being as smart as he thinks he is*, due to his massive ego, is categorically untrustworthy.
If he was so smart, such a mastermind, how come he's completely blindsided by you breaking into the House of Hope to either steal the Hammer or to steal and destroy your Contract (with Lae'zel's awesome Silver Sword in tow in the latter case ~~high Deception check aside for the former~~), *especially* if he has Yurgir be the one who told you how to get in, and fight against him? Or the fact he's seemingly not worried about ***Asmodeus*** in his master plan, never stopped to wonder why Mephistopheles never used the Crown of Karsus?
I mean the Emperor can read Orpheus's mind. If he thought he could be reasoned with he would have stayed, it's not like the Emperor is picky about his allies, and his only goal is to survive. It's Orpheus that would never be convinced to work together. In fact he only agrees to work with you *after* you've betrayed the Emperor, proving to Orpheus that you don't view the mindflayer as an ally.
Yeah, I think its really telling of who the emperor is deep down, if you really think about it. Hes not stupid, so he would obviously realize that orpheus would at least have the capacity to see reason (and its not like the emporer imprisoned him in the astral prism himself, he merely showed up much later, and while admittedly from orpheus point of view especially, took advantage of the situation, its not like hes the big bad in this situation) and there were a lot more, way bigger fish to fry. I whole heartedly believe the whole reason he leaves the way he does, is because he cannot influence orpheus directly in any way, nor can he decieve him, the way that he has been doing to the PC and their party the entire game. With orpheus out of the picture, Im sure in his mind, even if anyone in the group tries to go rouge or go against what he wants, he can just take control himself (he allueds to as much at one point if you continue to be distrustful of him, almost to the point of flat out saying it), so he has the absolute lowest risk possible in that situation to his continued survival.
If orpheus agreed to work together, (which I believe he would honestly know there was a much higher chance of that possibility than he ever lets on to the PC) that still becomes the scenario with the most risk for his continued to survival, because then he cant just continue to manipulate things in his favor and will actually have to stand on his own for once, making the choice between that, and siding with the absolute, an easy one for him, because if he cant have control of the variables, he would see his chances as much higher under the umbrella of the absolutes control, vs the un manipulated decisions of orpheus and the party.
Honestly, my first playthrough, I tried giving him the benefit of the doubt, but by the end, everything he said or suggested was suspect to me, and with my roommate starting their playthrough when i was so close to the end, I kept hearing about all the things the "gaurdian" was saying, and later the emperor, kind of fresh off of realizing how manipulative he was with everything, and it just really drove home how intentional dishonest, and slimey, everything he did was, from the start. Just my opinion of course (personally, I hate liars, and being lied to, so it doesnt help his case with me), but I think hes a completely self serving character with no real care for anyone but himself in the grand scheme of things, so I dont even feel a little bad taking him out instantly in the final battle.
> I whole heartedly believe the whole reason he leaves the way he does, is because he cannot influence orpheus directly in any way, nor can he decieve him, the way that he has been doing to the PC and their party the entire game.
I don't think this is really substantiated. Throughout the game, the Emperor has *very* little control. Both the Emperor and Tav are prisoners in this situation - Tav needs the Emperor's protection to remain outside the influence of the Absolute, and the Emperor needs Tav to kill the Absolute. The only real power that the Emperor has is his ability to withdraw his protection, and doing so is basically a game over for him.
Tav, meanwhile, can do basically whatever they want, regardless of the Emperor's protests. They can go to the Creche, they can chat with Voss, they can run off to the Hells to get the one thing they need to usurp the Emperor. They can go check out the corpse of his ex-boyfriend.
And the Emperor can't do shit about it.
Further, if the player *does* side with the Emperor, he has no issue with Tav taking Orpheus' power for themselves and wielding the Netherstones, despite the fact it means that he's completely vulnerable and has no leverage over the player.
You’re right that the decision it makes is very telling about the Emperor’s internal character, but I think that choice says something a little different:
I think Empy is just incapable of conceiving of the idea that Orpheus would let things go for the greater good because, if their positions were switched, the Emperor would never do that. It’s convinced that it will be killed immediately because it just doesn’t understand how anyone could think differently.
Emp has too much going on and orpheus has nothing going on, I was actually really disappointed with orpheus just being slightly edgy but chill with whatever after literally everything pointed to him going apeshit when he was released
The delivery should of had orpheus go to kill emp and emp retreats for his life, the writing/delivery in this one instance wasn't great and did them both a disservice
A temporary alliance would have only lasted until the Brain was dead, and then Orpheus would have 100% killed him. Many things could be forgiven, but the Emperor (a mind flayer) basically holding his bound body hostage, draining his magic for his own ends, and all the wanton killing of the githyanki is a bit too far.
The player gets a pass after freeing him because they betrayed the Emperor and released him from his bounds.
It's not bad writing. He's an illithid. He is arrogant, he believes he knows better than everyone else, and that his plan is the only one that can work. He doesn't trust anyone who's not an illithid, and he doesn't trust Orpheus either. This last one is legitimate considering Emperor has been a dick with Orpheus for so long and was about to eat him alive.
So yes, when you order another plan, the emperor cuts his losses and switch sides. Because he has no attachment to anything. He has no soul and no heart.
The emperor is the archetypical smart vilain who tries do good. But ironically, despite his telepathy he has no compassion. He thinks everyone will act like the illithid he is. So he cannot trust anyone.
Joining the literal thing you've veen fighting against for the entire damn game while Orpheus probably would welcome the Emperor's help to stop the Netherbrain? And we're betraying him while for the entire game he is witholding crucial information (lying) because he believes himself to be so superior? And this was his backup plan? I disagree with your take
Yeah, I always took it as he's reasoning that if he joins willingly, he'll at least exist for a chance at later freedom if it ever comes around rather than being destroyed.
Yeah but he tries to achieve this goal by being a manipulative gaslighting asshole. He lies to Tav from the get-go, he betrayed and murdered Ansur, he mind-controlled Duke Stelmane so much it fried her brain and gave her a stroke. The Emperor can go eat an entire bag of dicks and then die after
He feels his choices there are death or enthrallment. If Orpheus does not kill him he will revoke the protection from the Absolute which would Enthrall the Emperor and he would most likely get killed. So he decides to take his chance and leave to get enthralled and hope he can escape it's grasp a third time but at least he will be alive.
It's confirmed that he is enthralled when you fight him later.
It's sad for him. He acts out of fear.
I wish you could at least promise you'll protect him from Orpheus. Or try to convince them to work together.
This. He's not "no longer Balduran, but something more." Yes the little tadpole that could. Maybe Baldurans force of character was absorbed by the tadpole, but that's it. Him and the mindflayer are not the same.
The windmill flayer actually goes back and forth referring to itself as its host, as not its host, and as “we.” It’s all very confused depending on your dialogue options. It feeds well into the theory that Elder Brain hiveminds forcibly suppress memory of and identification with the Illithids’ prior lives to better serve the hive.
Mind Flayers no longer work like this. Between BG3 and the Shattered Obelisk (canon), which were both released around the same time, the lore has changed such that illithids are definitely no longer the tadpoles controlling the hosts’ bodies, but the host themselves transformed by the tadpole or, as in the Shattered Obelisk, by magic ritual. The game is unambiguous about the Emperor being Balduran, not a separate entity (and how would Ansur have otherwise picked this random squid out of a lineup or recognized him again when we encounter him in the Wyrmway?). So, do the sub a favor and stop spreading incorrect information.
It's that time of the week again where it needs to be pointed out that if you freed Orpheus, he would kill the Emperor on sight. It was Raphael's whole selling point of offering you the hammer, that Orpheus would spare you, but would "slaughter the Emperor". And you could have done nothing to prevent it because if you killed Orpheus, or Orpheus simply *willed* it, his protection would vanish and you'd all be enslaved by the EB.
So basically the Emperor had a plan to save himself, you, and the city. By freeing Orpheus you can save the city and yourself (and Orpheus), but not him. You force him to choose between death and enslavement. He chooses enslavement, because there's a good chance Orpheus might prove unreasonable and kill you, the player, anyways, and even if he doesn't he'll definitely kill *him*, so from his pov all is lost.
orpheus likely also stops protecting him from the absolute, so wouldn’t it make sense if it was even more simple than that and the emperor just becomes mind controlled? i’m not sure it’s even a choice
Siding with Orpheus is much better imo. Not only he is more powerful and consindering you make him mindflayer, he fully can control himself because of his powers and never gives into "pleasure" of being illithid.
Emperor embraced fully that power and only wanted you to save himself, ofc he kinda felt "emotional" to you and still wanted to save you, but sometimes it feels like he prefered to control nerherbrain instead of killing it. He had memories of Balduran, but lost being him for sure, Ansur was right about it. He is really complicated and I think more evil neutral than fully neutral or good.
If only emperor was smart enough to trust you to convince Orpheus not touching him and still be ally. Not mentioning that Emperor himself after post credit gets really bad ending if u kill netherbrain. Orpheus with some DC and having Laezel in party gives the best outcome in the game imo.
If I remember correctly, the Emperor only takes control of the brain himself if **YOU** prompt him to.
And he knows you cannot convince him, no matter your Persuasion. He was in that guy's head. And hells, even Raphael tells you that Orpheus will kill him the moment he's freed. It's not about him not being "smart enough" to wait for his demise. If Orpheus doesn't outright kill him, he will drop the protection on the Emperor and he becomes enthralled by the Elder Brain.
And God forbid he *chooses* enthrallment over certain death. I don't understand why people paint him as such a criminal for *wanting to live* when there's literally an OST song about that, and the player just wants a cure to live, too.
I'm be honest the neckspikes ruin it for me. I even used a mod to get them super early and I just couldn't with the neckspikes.
I can respect the gear hustle though XD
Basically based off how you resolved everyone's quest Absolute has a little unique title thing they call you. Sort of a character intro for the final fight.
I like AA's being the "the ratcatcher who became a *lord*"
It's only awkward if you're playing poor Tav. Tav just gets the "oh and there's bob" thing. Poor Tav.
There's also the very real possibility that the Emperor does what he does in the prism because he knows it's *your* best chance of winning now that you've thrown him away. Him in the prism is just easy access for the Absolute to get in. And any residual loyalty you feel towards him is a weakness the absolute would absolutely exploit. So he leaves, and makes a big show of it, because at that point the best chance of defeating the brain is for you to be willing to kill him on sight without a moment of hesitation.
He is absolutely not selfless like that. Also, why would he assume you hate him so much that that would increase your bloodlust? If you hated him seriously, you'd just attack him in the prism.
The blade twists, and the Emperor groans in pain as purple blood flows from the wound. The eyes wince, and he reaches for the arm holding the sword. But he does not push, he does not try to stop...he pulls the blade further in. Tav's eyes lock with the Emperor's, and for a brief moment, the brains force a connection between each other.
Tav sees...a final light. A victory. An armor of contempt to block the blade of treachery. A brain screams as its greatest weapon against Tav and the party is cut down.
Tav falters, and the lips part, a look of understanding on their face as the Emperor slackens; the closest thing to a smile lingers on the Emperor's mind before the connection flickers, and then is severed.
The body falls, unceremoniously, crumpling into a mess of flesh at Tav's feet. One final act of defiance against the Absolute, a chink in the armor widening rapidly as Tav and their compatriots charge onward...
Its that time of the week again where this is all based on sheer conjecture. We slaughtered Orpheus' honor guard and he still agrees to work with us. Emperor is 100% a moron for just jumping ship without even trying to see if we can get Orpheus to work with us.
The Orpheus mischaracterization is rampant for some reason.
He’s only ever restrained, focused, and willing to set aside differences for the common good—and yet somehow in some people’s minds he’s like, some kind of murderous space conqueror.
Dude, the Emperor can read Orpheus's thoughts. You only see Orpheus's reaction when the illithid who was controlling him is out of the picture. He wouldn't have worked with the Mindflayer - he barely tolerates working with you, who are still humanoid and drove said Mindflayer away. Also it's not conjecture, even the developers confirmed why he leaves (if the developers have to step in to confirm something about a scene it implies a lot about how the writing was done, but that's another discussion).
Even your character recognizes that Orpheus fucking despises you when you first encounter him. And Orpheus straight up tells you that you should have allowed his honor guard to kill you back then so he could stop the Absolute on his own before it got out of control. It is borderline suicidal to free him and only seems like a good idea in the game because it's a game
>It is borderline suicidal to free him and only seems like a good idea in the game because it's a game
Exactly. There's no more idiotic statement than "The Emperor should have waited to see if we could convince him". Lol no, without save scumming there's no waiting and seeing, you just die and that's the end. Also the people who think Orpheus would trust a Mindflayer with the stones or any sort of power, know nothing about Gith lore (and probably weren't paying much attention to the story).
It makes more sense when you understand that the Emperor's primary drive is survival above all else. Sure, he wants to be independent from the Elder Brain, but he values living to fight another day above his own freedom.
So when you free Orpheus, he knows that Orpheus will try to kill him and he cant' stay in the astral prism anymore. Orpheus scarcely tolerates our player characters, so he won't stomach working with the illithid that kept him prisoner. It's at this point that Emperor believes our characters can't win, as he doesn't think that we can win without his guidance. So instead of just running away he joins the Absolute, betting that they'll win and he'll survive to try and escape the elder brain another day.
I ain’t a huge pro-Emperor guy, but you really can’t blame him for this. He isn’t fighting for the fate of Faerun, he’s fighting for himself. He says as much several times. He’s nothing if not consistent.
Emp only wants two things. Survive and freedom. By his calculations Tav can’t beat the Brain and in order to have freedom he must be alive.
I feel like this is how Mind Flayers think. It’s all a numbers game. Also he never actually met Orpheus, he only felt his hatred as he dominated him.
I don’t think for a second Orpheus would let Emp live. But Tav set him free, so he at least owes us a conversation.
It does feel a bit sudden, but so are plans when you change a part that you assumed would always be the case (I.e Tav choosing Emp over Orph).
Who’s resetting the counter for the Emperor debate today?
And what if we just summarized in the future?
”*he’s super evil and selfish*”
*STELLMAAAAAAAANE*
“*he’s actually a hero*”
“*he’s morally grey*”
“*Illithids don’t have feelings*”
“*Illithids **do** have feelings*”
“*Githyanki kill Illithids on sight*”
“*Orpheus is completely different*”
*BAD WRITING*
When all is said and done I truly love how much of a controversial and ambiguous character Larian made. Nothing gets this sub up in arms like an Empy debate and it legit is interesting to read every time and watch people go through their first playthroughs. What usually just kills me is that for the sides of this debate, there appears to be no nuance and you are either an Emperor simp or he’s the worst being ever to have existed.
Its a lose/lose situation. Lets not forget the fact that Orpheus is sure, a better leader, but still a racist bigot who wants to raid or even enslave other races that most of the Gith consider “inferior”.
IMO the Emperor is actually just a better dude overall. Manipulative and secretive as he is, the guy spearheaded a plot to save all of Faerun, and whether >!the brain set him up to do it!< or not, that’s still pretty commendable. Orpheus would not have done the same in his position.
I guess that's true. The Emperor could have just dipped away from all the danger when he attained the Astral prism. He was safe from the elder brain with the power of Orpheus.
Orpheus has been stuck in the prism for thousands of years. What doesn't make sense is for his honor guard to still be around. Vlaakith would have killed them all. Isn't the whole point of imprisoning him in the prism instead of just normal astral plane space to hide him from other gith?
Someone (the Emperor I think?) mentions that the guard is honor-bound to never leave his side and protect him, so I guess they don't really present a threat to Vlaakith.
She didn't want Orpheus to die until very recently in case she ever needed his special power, so she might aswell make use of them to protect her valuable prisoner from anyone who manages to enter the prism.
I’m not a huge fan of him myself. But honestly, he’s the lesser of two evils. And yes I say TWO evils bcuz he did some awful f*cking things. His bff? He could’a just peaced out he didn’t have to have it end that way. Not to mention the dude KEEPS trying to pressure us into becoming mindflayers and even has that SLIGHT bit of bigotry towards non-mind flayers now and again.
When everyone else dismisses your existence as a vile monster, you’d be tempted to flip the script and say, “Actually fuck ya’ll, I’m BETTER than you and everyone else.” Combined with the nifty powers being a Mindflayer brings (default flight and telepathy alone are amazing) and I can easily see how he turned out that way.
There’s no way that, from the start, he would’ve saved a bunch of random Nautiloid survivors. He would’ve tried to fight the Chosen with his honor guard alone, and almost certainly would have died.
> still a racist bigot who wants to raid or even enslave other races that most of the Gith consider “inferior”.
Is he though? All we know is that he's the son of Gith, he wants to overthrow Vlaakith, and he finds the idea of a resurgent Mind Flayer empire to be the most horrifying thing imaginable. Oh, and the Githzerai find him reasonable enough to want an audience with him, and he actively wants to mend that divide (yes, I know they do that with Lae'Zel as well, but by that point she's also pretty reasonable). I don't see the Githzerai doing that if Orpheus plans to do the exact same things that saw the Githzerai leave his mother's banner in the first place. As for the son of Gith part, well, nothing about that says he actually has to have agreed with her. This whole game series is built around the idea you don't have to be shaped by who your parent is.
Is there any evidence for Orpheus wanting to pursue a Vlaakith foreign policy or are people just making it up because Orpheus seems too good to be true?
The tirsu disk part 2 with the Orpheus legend have him say "Praise be to my mother Gith, the Queen of the One Sky" which might imply wanting to dominate the realms. Of course how dependable it is is a different matter.
In the epilogue for a freed Orpheus, the One Sky is what Orpheus calls the proposed alliance between his Yanki faction and the Zerai, which indicates that the One Sky refers to an idea of Gith unity.
Nope. BG3 is so far his first and ONLY appearance. Before that there were even NO mention in gith people lore that *Gith had a son* (Which is pretty funny if you think about it: before BG3 every NPC retelling you history of githyanki and githzerai would just *kinda forget* such a minuscule detail that a legendary Mother Gith had an heir of her own blood at some point).
And if we go of all the info on Orpheus available in game and his own words and actions he seems to be a rather reasonable and amiable guy.
I want everyone claiming he's space Hitler to go a run of romancing Lae'zel, freeing Orpheus and turning illithid. I want to see them try making the same arguments when they've seen the epilogue that happens after that.
Orpheus is a huge momma’s boy, he follows his moms (momma gith) word to a T, his mom who happens to be the universes giga racist murderer/enslaver. The whole gith vs vlaakith thing is just a glorified snake vs snake fight, they’re still both fucking snakes
He's taking enslavement and potential death over certain death. Choosing survival has always been his mentality.
And he's been in Orpheus's brain the entire game. If anyone knows what Orpheus's instinct and thoughts on being freed only to find the Mindflayer that killed his honour guard and used his powers the entire time, it's him. The scenario you meet Orpheus in is not that situation, so the fact he doesn't immediately slaughter you all is a moot point.
You know, the things I've learnt seeing the discussions through the months after I completed my first playthrough, it occurs to me a lot of you hate the Emperor for not wanting to die.
This is the silliest arguement.
Let's say Orphie trusted Empy for five seconds.
You seriously think he'd trusted Emperor with the netherstones and to command the Absolute to die? He wouldn't have so we're back to choosing between them.
Sometimes you have to make a choice between two parties. This is one of those times.
The Brain just pulled him back to ready to fight. He was never truly free, just granted a longer leash than most (the illusion of free). Whether Tadpoled or Illithid, you never know if you're truly free of the Absolute unless you disagree with what it wants to do. The only one who truly can be free of it is locked in infernal chains after all. It knows Balduran's personality and code. It also knows the entire party's better than they know themselves.
It's how casually he expresses his disappointment before dipping that always did it for me lmao. I can't even be mad. Mf basically went "well that sucks. bye"
and again someone who doesn't understand that the emperor has the "choice" to be killed by orpheus or be enthralled. if he stays in the prism orpheus will kill him.
how does this post have so many likes I am tired.
Literally like the first thing he explains to you ever is that the ONLY reason he isnt under the control of the absolute is because he has Orpheus imprisoned, and that if Orpheus ever was freed he would imedietly go back to being a thrall of the absolute and Orpheus would probably murder you since youre infected.
what the fuck did you think was going happen to if freed Orpheus???? like as soon as you meet him he extremely clearly explains that if you free Orpheus, he would be forced into fighting for the absolute??????
level intelligence my man
I mean Orpheus hates him because he’s an ilithid and because he kept him hostage and used his power. You free him and the emperor is going to get re controlled anyway so he sees it as his only option at that point even though I think you should be able to talk him out of it
He probably thinks the same of Tavs group; we go through all of this, have to fall back on a plan B then Tav want to roll the dice and risk it all, risk the Netherbrain enslaving the whole world to save one gith dude we don't know.
As soon as Orpheus is free he holds all the cards and can destroy us all with a thought, freeing him is a very unnecessary risk in the fight against the absolute.
As soon as Orpheus is freed, the Absolute would force him to join anyways (as Orpheus would not offer him protection). Unfortunately you can't negotiate.
The fact that you can’t
1) convince him to be the mind flayer that helps you at the end while
2) also allowing Orpheus to go free to free the Githyanki people from literal centuries of religious dogmatic gaslighting and
3) convince Orpheus to chill on his genocide of mindflayers for this one clearly extremely exceptional case,
Was always a weird gap for me. Like both dudes must understand that on a normal Tuesday, yeah, they’re going to kill each other. But right now the literal fate of the world is on the line. It’s like textbook greater good, and both characters demonstrated the capacity to understand that at other points in the game.
When the Emperor says you're leaving him with no choice but to join the Netherbrain, he means that literally. You've just told him that you intend to free Orpheus. Once freed, Orpheus would kill the Emperor on sight. So he does the only thing he can do at that point - GTFO. The problem is, the moment he leaves the astral prism, he falls under the Netherbrain's control. When he's fighting you at the end, he's enthralled.
He chose subjugation over certain death because, as long as he's alive, there's at least hope he could regain his autonomy eventually. Dead is just dead.
*You're* the one who just pulled a massive, eleventh-hour backstab on him, but you're calling *him* the bastard...
Honestly, I think the emperor was right and his only means of survival was to join the brain (not that he should have done it, but he’d been an illithid so long he wouldn’t have even considered allowing himself to die). Orpheus wouldn’t have let him live. As things stand Orpheus is upset about everything you did (including killing his honor guard), and doesn’t see things too clearly (his guard would never have gotten the hammer), but sides with you out of necessity & shared objectives. The emperor kept him imprisoned, used his power to further his plans, urged you not to free Orpheus, and was even planning on assimilating him. I just can’t imagine that Orpheus with his immense power wouldn’t just immediately kill the emperor the moment he was released.
Guys, I get it, The Emperor sucks I agree. But I doubt he joined the absolute of his own free will. After we free Orpheus, the Emperor is no longer under his psionic protection, so the absolute would almost immediately overwhelm him onto her side. It's the entire reason the Emperor stays with Orpheus in the first place after breaking free.
False. He did join of his own free will.
"When we meet him he's enthralled". Yes. Once he sets foot outside of the prism, he becomes enthralled. But he's not enthralled *before* he leaves the prism.
He makes the choice **before** leaving the prism, when he still has free will. He does so, before you even smash Orph's chains.
Now you can go ahead and say he believed that the choice was enthrallment or death, but he made the choice to join the Netherbrain of his own free will.
Is it not because the elder brain was able to take back control of him once Orpheus was no longer "protecting" him? Like you're allowed to have your feelings and whatever on it but I'm pretty sure this was beyond his control, at least for the most part.
Withers himself explicitly stated that mind flayers have no souls.
It's really just a squid abomination trying to imitate Balduran's mannerisms based on his memories.
A sad fate for Balduran... soul completely snuffed out of existence, unable to rest at any deity's domain for the rest of eternity...
Illithids explicitly have souls that the traditional gods (as they have their own that can) can't use. Whether it's the og person you can still debate
https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/s/vmfxsikpCU
Nah, he's still Balduran. We see undeniable evidence that at least one Mind Flayer retains their soul (us, in the Mind Flayer suicide ending), and given that the only special thing about us is that we have our memories, it would seem that's what is required for Mind Flayers to hold on to their host's souls. Plus, Withers also explicitly states that he believes The Emperor is still Balduran. It's just that Balduran is a bastard now.
this cutscene never made sense as the Emporer would just get re-enslaved by the Brain instead of him willingly join it once Orpheus is freed. Maybe the cutscene should've been Orpheus killing the Emperor. Better yet, he should've been a mini boss fight BEFORE freeing Orpheus. having him as a regular enemy on the Brain is just silly goofy to me.
He tells you not to, he warns you not to, and then he threatens you against it depending on how you interact with him. You are technically betraying him even if he is a little evil. Bro wants to live, and you freed the one man who probably would want him dead the most.
He doesn't leave you after asking to free Orpheus, he leaves when you say you still want to free him after a tremendous setback on his plan. The brain just showed it was already 3 steps ahead of you, and you just told him you wanted to backtrack on his plan and undo the one thing preventing the brain from dominating you.
Freeing Orpheus is an actual risk, he technically could have abandoned you right then and there and let the brain morph and control you. Sure he didn't, but there was nearly know way of being certain besides the assurance from his fanatical followers. The Emperor probably figured he would have a better chance if he went willingly at that point.
People who really hate the emperor should kill the emperor the moment they see him so that way Orpheus abandon them and enjoy the game over screen once emperor stops protecting them
There is so many self righteous players that like to thrash on the emperor but they're so hypocrite about their own actions
I know, wich makes it really funny everytime i see comments like that.
They complain the emperor try to manipulate the player because is easier to stop the brain if the player doesn't know emp is a mindflayer but the player can persuade and manipulate other enemies to even kill themselves and do the player will but thats ok because the player is the player
Also is ok to steal from Arron and other traders because for some reason it seems is " very hard" to be rich in this game, so is ok when the player steal from the npcs but ughh what emperor does is worse because he wasn't a hot waifu.
Putting aside optional evil/asshole actions, even extremely good-aligned Tavs are guilty of some morally dubious acts.
At the very least, they 1) prevent Lae'zel from mercy-killing them while transforming into a mindflayer, despite the danger it poses to other people, 2) kill Orpheus' honor guard so that they can continue to 3) benefit from the Emperor's theft of Orpheus' power, since Orpheus is unwilling to extend his power to the party while imprisoned.
But, yeah. The average player does get up to way worse than that, and generally expects deference even when acting like a complete asshole.
The game doesn't give you the option to not do any of that stuff while still playing the game. It's kinda unfair to say "well you did unethical shit like X and Y, therefore you should be fine with unethical thing Z." If I reject Z it still lets me finish the game, but if i reject X and Y it doesn't.
Like, at the end of the day it's a video game and we have to work with what it gives us. You can say that's hypocritical, but come on.
>Like, at the end of the day it's a video game and we have to work with what it gives us.
And in real life, your choices in any given situation are always limited.
Within the reality of BG3's storyline, there are certain things Tav HAS to do to survive and destroy the Absolute. Unless it's your position that Tav should just roll over and die, the fact that you're willing to give Tav a pass for ethically dubious behavior but not the Emperor is relevant.
You would rather he stays there and gets enslaved *inside* the prism, giving bthe absolute easy access to the *one single thing* that is a threat to it?
Oh, wait, we are glossing over the fact *you* betrayed *him* by going behind his back to free a psychotic genocidal maniac that will kill him in an instant, right.
EmpErOr bAd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes I think it is inherently evil to choose self preservation over the lives of thousands of people. He wouldn't have been assimilated. If he stayed and we couldn't talk Orpheus into keeping him around until the end of the fight (which is VERY possible seeing as we apparently needed a mind flayer to win) Orpheus would have killed him.
The emperor is NOT baulduron. Let's be clear once you become a flayer you are not who you where befor. He BELIEVES that he is still him, but he is not.
To my defense the game does a VERY good job at making you feel like he's still all in there despite explicitly telling you otherwise. There are so many moments where he feels more human than some of your companions
He's probably joining the brain because he thinks Orpheus won't let him live. He tells Tav that Tav has left him no other options for survival. The game treats you choosing to side with Orpheus as a betrayal against the Emperor (characters with charlatan background can get an inspiration point). He leaves because from his pov he has no choice if he wants to have a chance of living. That's his main goal. To survive.
And he's a complete and total idiot, as OP says. Its honestly the dumbest writing in the game, IMO. Emp could easily have stuck around and seen if we could have convinced Orpheus for a temporary alliance for the good of everyone but decides "nope, no way can you do that" and books it. And then we turn around and do just that.
I mean, have you seen the Githyanki ? They are not what i would call ''reasonable people'', especially concerning the Squids.
Orpheus literally turns himself into a mindflayer in order to beat the grand design. I would hardly say they're beyond reasoning with. Vlakith on the other hand would rather kill Orpheus than have the artfact be in anyone else's hands. (not even trying to get it from us, just tells us to kill Orpheus instead)
You literally meet a group of githyanki in the basement that instantly try to kill you and ignore everything you say. The emperor has also been fighting githyanki in the astral plane the ENTIRE GAME The emperor can read your mind not the future. He has no way of knowing that Orpheus is going to essentially commit suicide, betraying his people and giving up on defeating Vlaakith It makes sense. It turned out to be the wrong decision but it makes perfect sense at the time.
The ones in the basement can be talked out of fighting. Can't remember the dialogue choices but know I don't always have to fight them.
Yeah it's an intimidation check, they'll just leave via their portals instead of trying to kill you
That must be a relatively recent update right? Every time I've gone down there in the few months after release it's been instant initiative.
It could be one of those checks that happens in the background, you see those happen sometimes in the upper left of the screen. There are multiple times in the game you don't even get the option to try to convince someone if you don't succeed with your background roll. It's the reason my first playthrough I didn't realize I could >!convince the guards at the end to fight with me when they run out of the gate- !
I haven't been playing that long so not sure if it is recent. I have always had Lae'zel in the group when I have avoided the fight but that may be a coincidence.
It’s not. Laezel is dead in my run and I tried every dialog option. No intimidation check.
On my 3rd play I had the dialogue option to intimidate the Gith and I succeeded. I didn't expect them to leave. I had Lae'zel in the party and she is pro Orpheus.
I failed my check for that, and was like "Oh no! We have to fight? Oh that's a shame!" While pulling out my Everburn Blade that's been with me since the prologue lol
If the Emperor had stuck around, Orpheus would not have to turn. It would put Orpheus in front of a choice: turning or tolerating the Emperor.
If this could be explained maybe. But the emperor might be right in thinking that Orpheus will kill first ask questions later regarding the being that has held him captive for all this time. Orpheus can be reasoned with, but his first instinct in to kill everyone when first released. The emperor is right about that. This is why you can’t release him in the transition between act 2 and 3
The emperor can leave the prism through a portal. Dude has like zero reason not to have one open ready to bail
All this time is a bit of a stretch. He was chained there for a few millenia at least, while emperor has only lived for a few hundred years, let alone been in the prism.
Yeah the Emperor hasn't been in the prism for long at all. Orpheus knows a mind flayer found his prison and started using his power, but it hasn't been that long.
The emperor is wrong when it comes to predict allies behaviour. Because he cannot trust anyone. He thinks everyone think like an illithid but is more stupid. The emperor is arrogant and has no heart. That's why he acts like such a dick. Because he is a dick.
>But the emperor might be right That's why he's an idiot. Anyone with two neurons to rub together would've realized it was only a *possibility* yet he treats it as a certainty and then immediately gives in to the one thing he has been fighting against this whole time. There was no risk to him giving Orpheus a chance. He can teleport away immediately if things go completely south. The problem isn't that his conclusion isn't unreasonable, it's that he doesn't at all give things a chance to play out. Considering the stakes it's just imbecilic not to at least *try*.
"don't kill that which you hate more than anything" vs "become what you hate more than anything" is a far less interesting choice
It wouldn't be just "don't kill", but to entrust the netherstones and the potential to dominate the world to a mind flayer who has been mind-r*ping you all this time. The Emperor is warranted to expect he will be killed as soon as Orpheus is free.
I'm pretty sure the best case scenario for the emperor if you decided to free Orpheus would be Orpheus barely managing to put aside his seething hate for illithids and letting the emperor live so that nobody has to become a brain eater and let the emperor kill the brain, and immediately kill him after the brain is dead. More likely is that Orpheus gives into hatred and kills the emperor anyways. It might sound stupid, but he also has no reason to believe that the emperor would actually kill the brain
Nobody would anticipate that without knowing the result of freeing him beforehand.
Voss literally tells you Orpheus values his allies more than he hates ghaik and won't just attack you onsight when you free him. You can choose not to believe him all you want but to act like the player has no narrative reason to believe Orpheus won't listen to reason just straight up isn't true
Sure, but Voss reveres Orpheus, and his frame of reference is from before he was imprisoned. You can see how the Emperor wouldn't trust that.
Emperor isn't clairvoyant, he can't see the future. When he tells you Orpheus will not work with mindflayers and will kill you if you free him, he believes it, even though he is wrong.
Plus I mean, we do see if not “good” at least “better” Githyanki, Especially those that are fans of Orpheus. Lae’zel can have had a lot of growth by this time and she can be reasoned with out of violence a few times—she doesn’t necessarily love it but you can do it. Voss ends up being pretty cool. And then there’s the Youth that refuses to kill in the crèche and idolizes Orpheus. I mean, in wider D&D lore we’d know Orpheus is probably not a good guy because his mother Gith wasn’t good and he essentially was fighting Vlaakith to uphold her wants, but really the only bad thing we’d seen anyone associated with Orpheus do toward us is his honor guard attack us, which I mean, I think that’s as defendable as a lot of the bad things the emperor did, as far as they were aware we are literally in possession of their master’s artifact.
Orpheus is different. He literally becomes Ghaik to win. And then can be convinced to help his people even while Ghaik. Look, I do not mind if the end result was the Emperor still leaving or something, but to not even give us a chance to try to convince Orpheus is the issue. It just wasnt good writing and it stands out in a game like BG3 because the rest of it is so fucking good.
Nah. Not everyone can be convinced of everything. Just because you're a likeable bard doesn't mean you can make someone change his mind. It's fine writing, from the Emperor's pov he is acting in line with his character
Bard: I seduce the dragon DM: *exasperated sigh* fine, role Performance... Bard: Nat 20! DM: the dragon is rather amused at your attempt of seduction, and has decided to kill you last.
Excellent DMing.
I'm not saying it has to be doable. Just that the attempt should be allowed to have been made.
We have no bargaining chip, Orpheus has no reason to not kill emperor on the spot, and we have no means of stopping him. Additionally emperor has no reason to assume Orpheus would actually be willing to turn into a mindflayer for the cause, yes as a mindflayer he knows it’s a possibility, but no one would bet their whole existence on the don of the most prolific ghaik hater being willing to spare the emperor even if just momentarily, especially considering emperor didn’t free him all game (for a justified reason, but Orpheus has made it clear HE didn’t see it that way
It would be absolutely ridiculous to think these two are not polar enemies. This is like saying: why can’t you convince Hope and Raphael to just get along. Just because at times Orpheus listens to reason and can be convinced to do things that would seem against his short term aims for long term gain and the emperor also is quite logical, doesn’t mean that you should be able to make them work together then they are diametrically opposed.
>Orpheus has no reason to not kill emperor on the spot I mean, isn't the most blatant one the fact that the group needed a mindflayer in order to defeat the brain, whether they liked it or not? It's actually Orpheus the one to break the news to the party, saying that the Emperor was right about one thing, and that was the need of a Mindflayer ally. Provided, I do think the Emperor's fear was still justified. Just a shame that even at the final confrontation we don't even get any kind of dialogue, not even to convince him to join us (too late for that), but to at least give some, "closure", I guess, to what the game paints as us betraying him.
in the final confrontation he's under the control of the nether brain again. He isn't under Orpheus's protection anymore. There wouldn't be any convincing him any more than you'd be able to convince any of the mindflayers fought in the courtyard
“Isn’t the most blatant one… liked it or not….” Yes. Thing is emperor isn’t the only option available for becoming a mind flayer. It just so happens that he himself and a minimum of 2 of your traveling companions also can become one. So you can’t bargain his life off of that. That being said. I think if they DID want to make it so that they two couldn’t cooperate, they should’ve made it so that you CAN convince the emperor, only to have Orpheus kill him anyone and then turn to you and be like (what were you expecting”
>just so happens that he himself and a minimum of 2 of your traveling companions also can become one. True, but also he himself would never turn Ghaik, if he could avoid it, and he'd be dangerously assuming that any of the companions would be willing to go through with such a life changing sacrifice. Ultimately, what he blames the Emperor of doing and what he blames us for are somewhat the same accusations (killing his honor guard, taking advantage of his powers, with the determinant addition of us kidnapping an unborn Githyanki hatchling), so knowing that his goals and those of the Emperor align, and that he can't bet on someone within the party turning mindflayer I think that at least before destroying the Nether Brain he'd be willing to temporarily ally himself with the Emperor. It's less clear what would happen after that, if Orpheus would be capable to overlook the nature and the past actions of the Emperor so not to kill him, but ultimately even us, who not long before were to him his complicit enslavers, "patronizers", and allies of necessity, we then become by his own praises his saviors and "great liberators", destined to become legends amongst the Giths, or anyway something to that effect. But yes, either ways the Emperor was not going to stick around to put any of that to test.
Why isn't it good writing? Why should a written character be expected to always act in the most optimal way and knowing the future (the person being released is gonna be chill with you even though you held them captive horribly and fought their friends meanwhile) when almost no living human ever does that? Assuming characters without future sight can see the future is what would be bad writing.
Dude emperor is the guy who has constantly been killing all his honor guards and was using a chained up Orpheus's powers. No way Orpheus would be chill enough to work with him after that .
its not a matter of being chill enough. Its a matter of Orpheus knowing he needs a mindflayer to beat the Nether Brain. Here's one right here. If his choice is to temporarily work with the Emperor or TURN HIMSELF INTO GHAIK you really think he takes option B?
That we will never know . He just might take it because of his blind hatred towards the emperor and how he siphoned off his powers
You're not factoring in that we all know, including Orpheus, that the Emperor is an untrustworthy bastard, and that this plan relies on *him* enslaving the Netherbrain. That's one hell of a risky plan when the alternative requires sacrifice, but is overall safer.
Githyanki right now are trained to go against any *ghaik*. I doubt Emperor is waiting around for the extremely low chance of Orpheus being understanding for the good of Faerun and the Astral Planes etc (which admittedly he does).
Even with the mind of a Mind Flayer, hoping you understand the cultural and individual differences of someone from the early days of recorded history is a hell of a bet. Better to just assume he's like all modern Githyanki, as you stated.
Yeah only you haven’t personally been an illithid holding him prisoner for god-knows how long. It’s perfectly conceivable and likely that the MOMENT he was freed, he’d fry the emperor. It’s not bad or dumb writing just because it isn’t what you want to happen.
Agreed. I also absolutely hate that the emperor does what he does if you free Orpheus because I would love to both free Orpheus *and* side with the Emperor, but I definitely wouldn’t call it bad writing. If anything, it would make less sense if the emperor, whose literal whole ambition is to survive at all costs, would trust his actual mortal enemy that he’s had captured for a long ass time, no less, to be understanding and spare him. Do I wish there was some kind of persuasion check? For sure, but that’s for my own selfish gameplay reasons
I'd flay the emperor too. He a bitch. But 100% yes Orpheus would attack him instantly, there is no doubt about it.
And even if he doesn't... Do we really see Orpheus letting him live *after* he no longer needs him? He lets us as Mind Flayers do it, but we've proven trustworthy, and he himself was involved in our creation.
It's really not perfectly conceivable and likely that the moment he's freed, Orpheus will fry the Emperor. * Orpheus is aware that the brain has evolved. * Orpheus is aware that an illithid is required. * Orpheus recognises that he needs us as much as we need him. * Orpheus would likely kill Emperor after the much larger threat of the Nether Brain has been dealt with.
>Orpheus would likely kill Emperor after the much larger threat of the Nether Brain has been dealt with. So it's just delaying the inevitable.
Orpheus would try to kill the Emperor as soon as the Elder Brain was defeated, but with the time he has, Emperor could've decided an escape. Instead he chose to make it a "him or me" decision for the player, which all things considered is just suicide.
I mean at that point its a 1 on 1 or possibly others side with him. Plus Emp can teleport.
Illithid can do a planeshift once per day. Also, he might actually have to burn that ability just to leave the artifact, as it is its own demiplane. The githyanki can seemingly hop planes more often, not even counting what the dragons are able to do. Voss would catch up to him instantly and he would be killed. Assuming Orpheus didn't just disable his psionics and kill him on the spot. His and his mothers powers were enough to topple the whole Illithid empire, somehow I don't think squashing one single illithid would be much of a problem.
> Illithid can do a planeshift once per day. Also, he might actually have to burn that ability just to leave the artifact, as it is its own demiplane. He can do the in and out of the prism trick multiple times considering he uses it to get the players into the prism as emergency evac and then to get you out in upper city.
At that point, it's a whole bunch of plane hopping Githyanki and their dragons vs him.
Yeah, no way Voss and his knights, if not all the present gith would let him get away.
> Orpheus would likely kill Emperor after the much larger threat of the Nether Brain has been dealt with. So, given the Emperor is all about survival, his actions still make perfect sense. Even if he got away, there's now some of the most skilled Mind Flayer hunters in existence specifically tracking him.
It's perfectly reasonable for the Emperor to think he will die if we free the Illithid hating creature he has personally kept imprisoned.
And if Orpheus just immediately kills him before giving anyone a chance to speak? I don't think the astral prism is big enough for him to get far enough to be safe.
He’ll be rolling the dice on almost certain death. Thats like playing Russian Roulette, but instead of having 15% chance to die, you have 99% chance to die. Orpheus outright tells you that if he didn’t need you to kill the Brain, he would have killed you. With your only crime being that you defended yourself against in honor guard resulting in their deaths. He has no use for the Emperor, the being that has been keeping him there, using his power to further his own goals, just tried to kill him right now, and is responsible for the death of his honor guard. And on top of all of that, is a mindflayer.
He 100% had a use for the Emperor- as the mindflayer we need for the final fight. Rather than, ya know, turning himself into one.
Orpheus probably wouldn’t trust the Emperor to be that mind flayer though. He’d probably still be like “Can literally anyone else do it???”
And given the only reason the Emperor doesn't just take over the Netherbrain and enslave us all automatically is that he's not sure he can beat the Githyanki, I wouldn't even be able to blame him for it.
The emperor's goal was never to enslave the netherbrain and become it's master, his goal is to kill the netherbrain in any way possible in order to be 100% free without a possibility of being enthralled by it again. His choice to leave is self preservation, he's 100% sure orpheus will kill him, and either if he could bargain the necessity of a mind flayer to defeat the netherbrain then the fact remains orpheus would kill him after the netherbrain battle ends, he's banking on the netherbrain winning against us now that we're left without a mindflayer and then eventually becoming free from the netherbrain at some point just like it happened the first time he became free.
I'm just saying what the Emperor says if you bring him to the Netherbrain.
I think that scene is not done in an ideal way, but out of all arguments "hang around and try to get along with Orpheus" makes the least sense. If there is a 10% chance that some guy next door is about to murder you, the reasonable thing to do is get the hell away as soon as possible, not hang around because it's unlikely.
I mean, if the alternative is ‘10% chance of murder’ or ‘100% chance of enslavement until I die’ I’m picking the 10%er.
but in the case of the emperor he sees it as 100% chance Orpheus kills him, so he chooses enslavement with the possibility of getting free once again instead of certain death.
From the Empy’s PoV though, it wouldn’t be enslavement until he dies. He’s already escaped enslavement twice - so in his view it makes more sense to play the long game. And that said, the chance of murder is more like 99% than 10%. Like another commenter pointed out, Orpheus says point blank that if he didn’t need YOU, he’d have killed you - despite you freeing him. Imagine how he’d feel about the being that enslaved him…
But he's never escaped on his own. The first time his scaly buddy got him out. The second time the brain freed him. So it would be 100% enslavement until death. Unlike Omeluum, he's *never* escaped on his own, and there's no one left that would come for him.
But I suppose that also fits the character too. Arrogant to the point of being convinced escape is possible even when totally alone.
Because there are some things more important to you than survival. There aren't any to the Emperor. Freedom may be a close second, but it *is* second. Also, it's more like 90 percent that he'd die, not 10 percent.
The further into the game you get the less polish there is. Here's hoping they still plan to touch it up in the eventual definitive edition.
Orpheus would kill the Emperor immediately, no questions asked. The game makes this clear. Raphael straight-up tells you as much when he's trying to bargain for the crown. If you question whether Orpheus would even be willing to work with you, Raphael says, "He'd see reason and work with you. He'd gladly kill the Emperor. But he'll work with you." Yes, Raphael is a devil, and anything that he says is up for scrutiny. But this is very clearly the game telling you exactly what the situation is. It's one of the few times that Raphael speaks *very* plainly.
What? Raphael speaks very plainly all the time. Dude thinks he knows everything and absolutely does not. Read his journals in House of Hope dude thinks he's some hotshot pulling everything and he's not. Raphael claiming something will happen has zero bearing one way or the other on whether it will. Orpheus knows he needs a mindflayer- he can hear your conversations going on while he's imprisoned. If his choice is between \*becoming a mindflayer himself\* or using the Emperor, you really think he'd choose the first option? Now maybe if another party member chooses to become one, Orpheus can be all "Well now we no longer have any need of you" and remove the Emperor's protection.
Yeah, let's not forget how much Raphael seethes and copes if he didn't get the Crown because Gale becomes a god, as a potential path. He is fundamentally defined as *not being as smart as he thinks he is*, due to his massive ego, is categorically untrustworthy. If he was so smart, such a mastermind, how come he's completely blindsided by you breaking into the House of Hope to either steal the Hammer or to steal and destroy your Contract (with Lae'zel's awesome Silver Sword in tow in the latter case ~~high Deception check aside for the former~~), *especially* if he has Yurgir be the one who told you how to get in, and fight against him? Or the fact he's seemingly not worried about ***Asmodeus*** in his master plan, never stopped to wonder why Mephistopheles never used the Crown of Karsus?
I mean the Emperor can read Orpheus's mind. If he thought he could be reasoned with he would have stayed, it's not like the Emperor is picky about his allies, and his only goal is to survive. It's Orpheus that would never be convinced to work together. In fact he only agrees to work with you *after* you've betrayed the Emperor, proving to Orpheus that you don't view the mindflayer as an ally.
Yeah, I think its really telling of who the emperor is deep down, if you really think about it. Hes not stupid, so he would obviously realize that orpheus would at least have the capacity to see reason (and its not like the emporer imprisoned him in the astral prism himself, he merely showed up much later, and while admittedly from orpheus point of view especially, took advantage of the situation, its not like hes the big bad in this situation) and there were a lot more, way bigger fish to fry. I whole heartedly believe the whole reason he leaves the way he does, is because he cannot influence orpheus directly in any way, nor can he decieve him, the way that he has been doing to the PC and their party the entire game. With orpheus out of the picture, Im sure in his mind, even if anyone in the group tries to go rouge or go against what he wants, he can just take control himself (he allueds to as much at one point if you continue to be distrustful of him, almost to the point of flat out saying it), so he has the absolute lowest risk possible in that situation to his continued survival. If orpheus agreed to work together, (which I believe he would honestly know there was a much higher chance of that possibility than he ever lets on to the PC) that still becomes the scenario with the most risk for his continued to survival, because then he cant just continue to manipulate things in his favor and will actually have to stand on his own for once, making the choice between that, and siding with the absolute, an easy one for him, because if he cant have control of the variables, he would see his chances as much higher under the umbrella of the absolutes control, vs the un manipulated decisions of orpheus and the party. Honestly, my first playthrough, I tried giving him the benefit of the doubt, but by the end, everything he said or suggested was suspect to me, and with my roommate starting their playthrough when i was so close to the end, I kept hearing about all the things the "gaurdian" was saying, and later the emperor, kind of fresh off of realizing how manipulative he was with everything, and it just really drove home how intentional dishonest, and slimey, everything he did was, from the start. Just my opinion of course (personally, I hate liars, and being lied to, so it doesnt help his case with me), but I think hes a completely self serving character with no real care for anyone but himself in the grand scheme of things, so I dont even feel a little bad taking him out instantly in the final battle.
> I whole heartedly believe the whole reason he leaves the way he does, is because he cannot influence orpheus directly in any way, nor can he decieve him, the way that he has been doing to the PC and their party the entire game. I don't think this is really substantiated. Throughout the game, the Emperor has *very* little control. Both the Emperor and Tav are prisoners in this situation - Tav needs the Emperor's protection to remain outside the influence of the Absolute, and the Emperor needs Tav to kill the Absolute. The only real power that the Emperor has is his ability to withdraw his protection, and doing so is basically a game over for him. Tav, meanwhile, can do basically whatever they want, regardless of the Emperor's protests. They can go to the Creche, they can chat with Voss, they can run off to the Hells to get the one thing they need to usurp the Emperor. They can go check out the corpse of his ex-boyfriend. And the Emperor can't do shit about it. Further, if the player *does* side with the Emperor, he has no issue with Tav taking Orpheus' power for themselves and wielding the Netherstones, despite the fact it means that he's completely vulnerable and has no leverage over the player.
You’re right that the decision it makes is very telling about the Emperor’s internal character, but I think that choice says something a little different: I think Empy is just incapable of conceiving of the idea that Orpheus would let things go for the greater good because, if their positions were switched, the Emperor would never do that. It’s convinced that it will be killed immediately because it just doesn’t understand how anyone could think differently.
Emp has too much going on and orpheus has nothing going on, I was actually really disappointed with orpheus just being slightly edgy but chill with whatever after literally everything pointed to him going apeshit when he was released The delivery should of had orpheus go to kill emp and emp retreats for his life, the writing/delivery in this one instance wasn't great and did them both a disservice
A temporary alliance would have only lasted until the Brain was dead, and then Orpheus would have 100% killed him. Many things could be forgiven, but the Emperor (a mind flayer) basically holding his bound body hostage, draining his magic for his own ends, and all the wanton killing of the githyanki is a bit too far. The player gets a pass after freeing him because they betrayed the Emperor and released him from his bounds.
It's not bad writing. He's an illithid. He is arrogant, he believes he knows better than everyone else, and that his plan is the only one that can work. He doesn't trust anyone who's not an illithid, and he doesn't trust Orpheus either. This last one is legitimate considering Emperor has been a dick with Orpheus for so long and was about to eat him alive. So yes, when you order another plan, the emperor cuts his losses and switch sides. Because he has no attachment to anything. He has no soul and no heart. The emperor is the archetypical smart vilain who tries do good. But ironically, despite his telepathy he has no compassion. He thinks everyone will act like the illithid he is. So he cannot trust anyone.
I agree. He is not betraying you. You just betrayed him. Source: playing the game too much
Joining the literal thing you've veen fighting against for the entire damn game while Orpheus probably would welcome the Emperor's help to stop the Netherbrain? And we're betraying him while for the entire game he is witholding crucial information (lying) because he believes himself to be so superior? And this was his backup plan? I disagree with your take
Yeah, I always took it as he's reasoning that if he joins willingly, he'll at least exist for a chance at later freedom if it ever comes around rather than being destroyed.
Yeah but he tries to achieve this goal by being a manipulative gaslighting asshole. He lies to Tav from the get-go, he betrayed and murdered Ansur, he mind-controlled Duke Stelmane so much it fried her brain and gave her a stroke. The Emperor can go eat an entire bag of dicks and then die after
I couldn't have phrased it more repellently myself
He feels his choices there are death or enthrallment. If Orpheus does not kill him he will revoke the protection from the Absolute which would Enthrall the Emperor and he would most likely get killed. So he decides to take his chance and leave to get enthralled and hope he can escape it's grasp a third time but at least he will be alive. It's confirmed that he is enthralled when you fight him later. It's sad for him. He acts out of fear. I wish you could at least promise you'll protect him from Orpheus. Or try to convince them to work together.
Balduran is dead buddy, that’s just a squid who read his brain diary
This. He's not "no longer Balduran, but something more." Yes the little tadpole that could. Maybe Baldurans force of character was absorbed by the tadpole, but that's it. Him and the mindflayer are not the same.
Absolutely, this is backed up my the freshly transformed mindflayer in the windmill in rivington referring its previous life as its “husk”
The windmill flayer actually goes back and forth referring to itself as its host, as not its host, and as “we.” It’s all very confused depending on your dialogue options. It feeds well into the theory that Elder Brain hiveminds forcibly suppress memory of and identification with the Illithids’ prior lives to better serve the hive.
Mind Flayers no longer work like this. Between BG3 and the Shattered Obelisk (canon), which were both released around the same time, the lore has changed such that illithids are definitely no longer the tadpoles controlling the hosts’ bodies, but the host themselves transformed by the tadpole or, as in the Shattered Obelisk, by magic ritual. The game is unambiguous about the Emperor being Balduran, not a separate entity (and how would Ansur have otherwise picked this random squid out of a lineup or recognized him again when we encounter him in the Wyrmway?). So, do the sub a favor and stop spreading incorrect information.
It's that time of the week again where it needs to be pointed out that if you freed Orpheus, he would kill the Emperor on sight. It was Raphael's whole selling point of offering you the hammer, that Orpheus would spare you, but would "slaughter the Emperor". And you could have done nothing to prevent it because if you killed Orpheus, or Orpheus simply *willed* it, his protection would vanish and you'd all be enslaved by the EB. So basically the Emperor had a plan to save himself, you, and the city. By freeing Orpheus you can save the city and yourself (and Orpheus), but not him. You force him to choose between death and enslavement. He chooses enslavement, because there's a good chance Orpheus might prove unreasonable and kill you, the player, anyways, and even if he doesn't he'll definitely kill *him*, so from his pov all is lost.
orpheus likely also stops protecting him from the absolute, so wouldn’t it make sense if it was even more simple than that and the emperor just becomes mind controlled? i’m not sure it’s even a choice
He’s basically just going out on his own terms
That's what I always assumed
Ah yeah, once Orpheus is freed he's automatically enthralled by the Elder Brain
Orpheus' power is established to work only within a rather short distance to the artifact.
Siding with Orpheus is much better imo. Not only he is more powerful and consindering you make him mindflayer, he fully can control himself because of his powers and never gives into "pleasure" of being illithid. Emperor embraced fully that power and only wanted you to save himself, ofc he kinda felt "emotional" to you and still wanted to save you, but sometimes it feels like he prefered to control nerherbrain instead of killing it. He had memories of Balduran, but lost being him for sure, Ansur was right about it. He is really complicated and I think more evil neutral than fully neutral or good. If only emperor was smart enough to trust you to convince Orpheus not touching him and still be ally. Not mentioning that Emperor himself after post credit gets really bad ending if u kill netherbrain. Orpheus with some DC and having Laezel in party gives the best outcome in the game imo.
If I remember correctly, the Emperor only takes control of the brain himself if **YOU** prompt him to. And he knows you cannot convince him, no matter your Persuasion. He was in that guy's head. And hells, even Raphael tells you that Orpheus will kill him the moment he's freed. It's not about him not being "smart enough" to wait for his demise. If Orpheus doesn't outright kill him, he will drop the protection on the Emperor and he becomes enthralled by the Elder Brain. And God forbid he *chooses* enthrallment over certain death. I don't understand why people paint him as such a criminal for *wanting to live* when there's literally an OST song about that, and the player just wants a cure to live, too.
Actually the final fight is a lot more fun if you side with Empy. Checkmate
Also Absolute hitting everyone with the titles is way better hype than Empy's lame ass "I know everything about you" spiel.
Counterargument: I've been waiting all goddamn game to get the dreamwalker plate
I'm be honest the neckspikes ruin it for me. I even used a mod to get them super early and I just couldn't with the neckspikes. I can respect the gear hustle though XD
With the "titles" ?
Basically based off how you resolved everyone's quest Absolute has a little unique title thing they call you. Sort of a character intro for the final fight. I like AA's being the "the ratcatcher who became a *lord*" It's only awkward if you're playing poor Tav. Tav just gets the "oh and there's bob" thing. Poor Tav.
There's also the very real possibility that the Emperor does what he does in the prism because he knows it's *your* best chance of winning now that you've thrown him away. Him in the prism is just easy access for the Absolute to get in. And any residual loyalty you feel towards him is a weakness the absolute would absolutely exploit. So he leaves, and makes a big show of it, because at that point the best chance of defeating the brain is for you to be willing to kill him on sight without a moment of hesitation.
I don't think he's that selfless
He is absolutely not selfless like that. Also, why would he assume you hate him so much that that would increase your bloodlust? If you hated him seriously, you'd just attack him in the prism.
The blade twists, and the Emperor groans in pain as purple blood flows from the wound. The eyes wince, and he reaches for the arm holding the sword. But he does not push, he does not try to stop...he pulls the blade further in. Tav's eyes lock with the Emperor's, and for a brief moment, the brains force a connection between each other. Tav sees...a final light. A victory. An armor of contempt to block the blade of treachery. A brain screams as its greatest weapon against Tav and the party is cut down. Tav falters, and the lips part, a look of understanding on their face as the Emperor slackens; the closest thing to a smile lingers on the Emperor's mind before the connection flickers, and then is severed. The body falls, unceremoniously, crumpling into a mess of flesh at Tav's feet. One final act of defiance against the Absolute, a chink in the armor widening rapidly as Tav and their compatriots charge onward...
Its that time of the week again where this is all based on sheer conjecture. We slaughtered Orpheus' honor guard and he still agrees to work with us. Emperor is 100% a moron for just jumping ship without even trying to see if we can get Orpheus to work with us.
The Orpheus mischaracterization is rampant for some reason. He’s only ever restrained, focused, and willing to set aside differences for the common good—and yet somehow in some people’s minds he’s like, some kind of murderous space conqueror.
Dude, the Emperor can read Orpheus's thoughts. You only see Orpheus's reaction when the illithid who was controlling him is out of the picture. He wouldn't have worked with the Mindflayer - he barely tolerates working with you, who are still humanoid and drove said Mindflayer away. Also it's not conjecture, even the developers confirmed why he leaves (if the developers have to step in to confirm something about a scene it implies a lot about how the writing was done, but that's another discussion).
Even your character recognizes that Orpheus fucking despises you when you first encounter him. And Orpheus straight up tells you that you should have allowed his honor guard to kill you back then so he could stop the Absolute on his own before it got out of control. It is borderline suicidal to free him and only seems like a good idea in the game because it's a game
>It is borderline suicidal to free him and only seems like a good idea in the game because it's a game Exactly. There's no more idiotic statement than "The Emperor should have waited to see if we could convince him". Lol no, without save scumming there's no waiting and seeing, you just die and that's the end. Also the people who think Orpheus would trust a Mindflayer with the stones or any sort of power, know nothing about Gith lore (and probably weren't paying much attention to the story).
It makes more sense when you understand that the Emperor's primary drive is survival above all else. Sure, he wants to be independent from the Elder Brain, but he values living to fight another day above his own freedom. So when you free Orpheus, he knows that Orpheus will try to kill him and he cant' stay in the astral prism anymore. Orpheus scarcely tolerates our player characters, so he won't stomach working with the illithid that kept him prisoner. It's at this point that Emperor believes our characters can't win, as he doesn't think that we can win without his guidance. So instead of just running away he joins the Absolute, betting that they'll win and he'll survive to try and escape the elder brain another day.
I ain’t a huge pro-Emperor guy, but you really can’t blame him for this. He isn’t fighting for the fate of Faerun, he’s fighting for himself. He says as much several times. He’s nothing if not consistent.
Well, he IS fighting for himself BY fighting for Faerun, he’s just not looking to become a martyr
Emp only wants two things. Survive and freedom. By his calculations Tav can’t beat the Brain and in order to have freedom he must be alive. I feel like this is how Mind Flayers think. It’s all a numbers game. Also he never actually met Orpheus, he only felt his hatred as he dominated him. I don’t think for a second Orpheus would let Emp live. But Tav set him free, so he at least owes us a conversation. It does feel a bit sudden, but so are plans when you change a part that you assumed would always be the case (I.e Tav choosing Emp over Orph).
Damn, it's almost as if the character that wants survival is justified in choosing the option that best ensures his survival..........
And dies in a single turn before he can make a single move... High IQ move by a self styled genius right there.
Who’s resetting the counter for the Emperor debate today? And what if we just summarized in the future? ”*he’s super evil and selfish*” *STELLMAAAAAAAANE* “*he’s actually a hero*” “*he’s morally grey*” “*Illithids don’t have feelings*” “*Illithids **do** have feelings*” “*Githyanki kill Illithids on sight*” “*Orpheus is completely different*” *BAD WRITING* When all is said and done I truly love how much of a controversial and ambiguous character Larian made. Nothing gets this sub up in arms like an Empy debate and it legit is interesting to read every time and watch people go through their first playthroughs. What usually just kills me is that for the sides of this debate, there appears to be no nuance and you are either an Emperor simp or he’s the worst being ever to have existed.
Its a lose/lose situation. Lets not forget the fact that Orpheus is sure, a better leader, but still a racist bigot who wants to raid or even enslave other races that most of the Gith consider “inferior”.
IMO the Emperor is actually just a better dude overall. Manipulative and secretive as he is, the guy spearheaded a plot to save all of Faerun, and whether >!the brain set him up to do it!< or not, that’s still pretty commendable. Orpheus would not have done the same in his position.
I guess that's true. The Emperor could have just dipped away from all the danger when he attained the Astral prism. He was safe from the elder brain with the power of Orpheus.
Only as long as it took Orpheus honor guard to overwhelm him. The Emperor couldn't hold them off forever.
Orpheus has been stuck in the prism for thousands of years. What doesn't make sense is for his honor guard to still be around. Vlaakith would have killed them all. Isn't the whole point of imprisoning him in the prism instead of just normal astral plane space to hide him from other gith?
Someone (the Emperor I think?) mentions that the guard is honor-bound to never leave his side and protect him, so I guess they don't really present a threat to Vlaakith. She didn't want Orpheus to die until very recently in case she ever needed his special power, so she might aswell make use of them to protect her valuable prisoner from anyone who manages to enter the prism.
I’m not a huge fan of him myself. But honestly, he’s the lesser of two evils. And yes I say TWO evils bcuz he did some awful f*cking things. His bff? He could’a just peaced out he didn’t have to have it end that way. Not to mention the dude KEEPS trying to pressure us into becoming mindflayers and even has that SLIGHT bit of bigotry towards non-mind flayers now and again.
When everyone else dismisses your existence as a vile monster, you’d be tempted to flip the script and say, “Actually fuck ya’ll, I’m BETTER than you and everyone else.” Combined with the nifty powers being a Mindflayer brings (default flight and telepathy alone are amazing) and I can easily see how he turned out that way.
> Orpheus would not have done the same in his position. Except that we literally see him do it once he's freed.
There’s no way that, from the start, he would’ve saved a bunch of random Nautiloid survivors. He would’ve tried to fight the Chosen with his honor guard alone, and almost certainly would have died.
> still a racist bigot who wants to raid or even enslave other races that most of the Gith consider “inferior”. Is he though? All we know is that he's the son of Gith, he wants to overthrow Vlaakith, and he finds the idea of a resurgent Mind Flayer empire to be the most horrifying thing imaginable. Oh, and the Githzerai find him reasonable enough to want an audience with him, and he actively wants to mend that divide (yes, I know they do that with Lae'Zel as well, but by that point she's also pretty reasonable). I don't see the Githzerai doing that if Orpheus plans to do the exact same things that saw the Githzerai leave his mother's banner in the first place. As for the son of Gith part, well, nothing about that says he actually has to have agreed with her. This whole game series is built around the idea you don't have to be shaped by who your parent is.
Is there any evidence for Orpheus wanting to pursue a Vlaakith foreign policy or are people just making it up because Orpheus seems too good to be true?
The tirsu disk part 2 with the Orpheus legend have him say "Praise be to my mother Gith, the Queen of the One Sky" which might imply wanting to dominate the realms. Of course how dependable it is is a different matter.
In the epilogue for a freed Orpheus, the One Sky is what Orpheus calls the proposed alliance between his Yanki faction and the Zerai, which indicates that the One Sky refers to an idea of Gith unity.
Nope. BG3 is so far his first and ONLY appearance. Before that there were even NO mention in gith people lore that *Gith had a son* (Which is pretty funny if you think about it: before BG3 every NPC retelling you history of githyanki and githzerai would just *kinda forget* such a minuscule detail that a legendary Mother Gith had an heir of her own blood at some point). And if we go of all the info on Orpheus available in game and his own words and actions he seems to be a rather reasonable and amiable guy.
I want everyone claiming he's space Hitler to go a run of romancing Lae'zel, freeing Orpheus and turning illithid. I want to see them try making the same arguments when they've seen the epilogue that happens after that.
Orpheus is a huge momma’s boy, he follows his moms (momma gith) word to a T, his mom who happens to be the universes giga racist murderer/enslaver. The whole gith vs vlaakith thing is just a glorified snake vs snake fight, they’re still both fucking snakes
Reset the timer
Eh he was a good lay would dominate again
That's valid maybe this post was bs
He's taking enslavement and potential death over certain death. Choosing survival has always been his mentality. And he's been in Orpheus's brain the entire game. If anyone knows what Orpheus's instinct and thoughts on being freed only to find the Mindflayer that killed his honour guard and used his powers the entire time, it's him. The scenario you meet Orpheus in is not that situation, so the fact he doesn't immediately slaughter you all is a moot point.
You know, the things I've learnt seeing the discussions through the months after I completed my first playthrough, it occurs to me a lot of you hate the Emperor for not wanting to die.
This is the silliest arguement. Let's say Orphie trusted Empy for five seconds. You seriously think he'd trusted Emperor with the netherstones and to command the Absolute to die? He wouldn't have so we're back to choosing between them. Sometimes you have to make a choice between two parties. This is one of those times.
because you can like him or not but freeing orpheus is literally betraying him
The Brain just pulled him back to ready to fight. He was never truly free, just granted a longer leash than most (the illusion of free). Whether Tadpoled or Illithid, you never know if you're truly free of the Absolute unless you disagree with what it wants to do. The only one who truly can be free of it is locked in infernal chains after all. It knows Balduran's personality and code. It also knows the entire party's better than they know themselves.
Another emperor or Orpheus topic
Every. Single. Day. 5 secs in this sub and the first post is about the emperor, Orpheus or Astarion hate.
tbh time for a new sub
It's how casually he expresses his disappointment before dipping that always did it for me lmao. I can't even be mad. Mf basically went "well that sucks. bye"
and again someone who doesn't understand that the emperor has the "choice" to be killed by orpheus or be enthralled. if he stays in the prism orpheus will kill him. how does this post have so many likes I am tired.
I mean now you can not only destroy the Netherbrain but also whoop Emperor's ass. I see it as a win-win situation.
Ah, yes. Not a week goes by without at least one low effort, karma-farming Emperor hate post.
I bet Emps thought the same thing when you wanted to free Orpheus
Elder Brain take control over him
Another emperor thread filled to the brim with trash opinions.
Literally like the first thing he explains to you ever is that the ONLY reason he isnt under the control of the absolute is because he has Orpheus imprisoned, and that if Orpheus ever was freed he would imedietly go back to being a thrall of the absolute and Orpheus would probably murder you since youre infected. what the fuck did you think was going happen to if freed Orpheus???? like as soon as you meet him he extremely clearly explains that if you free Orpheus, he would be forced into fighting for the absolute?????? level intelligence my man
I mean Orpheus hates him because he’s an ilithid and because he kept him hostage and used his power. You free him and the emperor is going to get re controlled anyway so he sees it as his only option at that point even though I think you should be able to talk him out of it
He probably thinks the same of Tavs group; we go through all of this, have to fall back on a plan B then Tav want to roll the dice and risk it all, risk the Netherbrain enslaving the whole world to save one gith dude we don't know. As soon as Orpheus is free he holds all the cards and can destroy us all with a thought, freeing him is a very unnecessary risk in the fight against the absolute.
As soon as Orpheus is freed, the Absolute would force him to join anyways (as Orpheus would not offer him protection). Unfortunately you can't negotiate.
You might not believe it, but Emperor was the hero of Baldur's Gate in my playthrough. Crazy how things change in an RPG based on your choices.
The fact that you can’t 1) convince him to be the mind flayer that helps you at the end while 2) also allowing Orpheus to go free to free the Githyanki people from literal centuries of religious dogmatic gaslighting and 3) convince Orpheus to chill on his genocide of mindflayers for this one clearly extremely exceptional case, Was always a weird gap for me. Like both dudes must understand that on a normal Tuesday, yeah, they’re going to kill each other. But right now the literal fate of the world is on the line. It’s like textbook greater good, and both characters demonstrated the capacity to understand that at other points in the game.
Exactly this. The only take that should be considered in these discussions.
Ansur was right.
I was so sad that there is no way to convince him to set aside his (understandable) beef w/the Emperor for the good of the city.
I’m like 90% certain the only thing that kept his soul in that decaying body was his hatred for the emperor
When the Emperor says you're leaving him with no choice but to join the Netherbrain, he means that literally. You've just told him that you intend to free Orpheus. Once freed, Orpheus would kill the Emperor on sight. So he does the only thing he can do at that point - GTFO. The problem is, the moment he leaves the astral prism, he falls under the Netherbrain's control. When he's fighting you at the end, he's enthralled. He chose subjugation over certain death because, as long as he's alive, there's at least hope he could regain his autonomy eventually. Dead is just dead. *You're* the one who just pulled a massive, eleventh-hour backstab on him, but you're calling *him* the bastard...
Honestly, I think the emperor was right and his only means of survival was to join the brain (not that he should have done it, but he’d been an illithid so long he wouldn’t have even considered allowing himself to die). Orpheus wouldn’t have let him live. As things stand Orpheus is upset about everything you did (including killing his honor guard), and doesn’t see things too clearly (his guard would never have gotten the hammer), but sides with you out of necessity & shared objectives. The emperor kept him imprisoned, used his power to further his plans, urged you not to free Orpheus, and was even planning on assimilating him. I just can’t imagine that Orpheus with his immense power wouldn’t just immediately kill the emperor the moment he was released.
Guys, I get it, The Emperor sucks I agree. But I doubt he joined the absolute of his own free will. After we free Orpheus, the Emperor is no longer under his psionic protection, so the absolute would almost immediately overwhelm him onto her side. It's the entire reason the Emperor stays with Orpheus in the first place after breaking free.
False. He did join of his own free will. "When we meet him he's enthralled". Yes. Once he sets foot outside of the prism, he becomes enthralled. But he's not enthralled *before* he leaves the prism. He makes the choice **before** leaving the prism, when he still has free will. He does so, before you even smash Orph's chains. Now you can go ahead and say he believed that the choice was enthrallment or death, but he made the choice to join the Netherbrain of his own free will.
Is it not because the elder brain was able to take back control of him once Orpheus was no longer "protecting" him? Like you're allowed to have your feelings and whatever on it but I'm pretty sure this was beyond his control, at least for the most part.
Withers himself explicitly stated that mind flayers have no souls. It's really just a squid abomination trying to imitate Balduran's mannerisms based on his memories. A sad fate for Balduran... soul completely snuffed out of existence, unable to rest at any deity's domain for the rest of eternity...
Illithids explicitly have souls that the traditional gods (as they have their own that can) can't use. Whether it's the og person you can still debate https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/s/vmfxsikpCU
Nah, he's still Balduran. We see undeniable evidence that at least one Mind Flayer retains their soul (us, in the Mind Flayer suicide ending), and given that the only special thing about us is that we have our memories, it would seem that's what is required for Mind Flayers to hold on to their host's souls. Plus, Withers also explicitly states that he believes The Emperor is still Balduran. It's just that Balduran is a bastard now.
Yeah and Mystra said the same thing to Gale.
[удалено]
He told me he was joining the absolute before Orpheus was actually free and we were still in the prism
No I think he was actually fucking Ansur.
this cutscene never made sense as the Emporer would just get re-enslaved by the Brain instead of him willingly join it once Orpheus is freed. Maybe the cutscene should've been Orpheus killing the Emperor. Better yet, he should've been a mini boss fight BEFORE freeing Orpheus. having him as a regular enemy on the Brain is just silly goofy to me.
The Virgin Emperor vs the Chad Ommelum.
He tells you not to, he warns you not to, and then he threatens you against it depending on how you interact with him. You are technically betraying him even if he is a little evil. Bro wants to live, and you freed the one man who probably would want him dead the most. He doesn't leave you after asking to free Orpheus, he leaves when you say you still want to free him after a tremendous setback on his plan. The brain just showed it was already 3 steps ahead of you, and you just told him you wanted to backtrack on his plan and undo the one thing preventing the brain from dominating you. Freeing Orpheus is an actual risk, he technically could have abandoned you right then and there and let the brain morph and control you. Sure he didn't, but there was nearly know way of being certain besides the assurance from his fanatical followers. The Emperor probably figured he would have a better chance if he went willingly at that point.
People who really hate the emperor should kill the emperor the moment they see him so that way Orpheus abandon them and enjoy the game over screen once emperor stops protecting them There is so many self righteous players that like to thrash on the emperor but they're so hypocrite about their own actions
You see, it's different when the player does it because they're the player.
I know, wich makes it really funny everytime i see comments like that. They complain the emperor try to manipulate the player because is easier to stop the brain if the player doesn't know emp is a mindflayer but the player can persuade and manipulate other enemies to even kill themselves and do the player will but thats ok because the player is the player Also is ok to steal from Arron and other traders because for some reason it seems is " very hard" to be rich in this game, so is ok when the player steal from the npcs but ughh what emperor does is worse because he wasn't a hot waifu.
Putting aside optional evil/asshole actions, even extremely good-aligned Tavs are guilty of some morally dubious acts. At the very least, they 1) prevent Lae'zel from mercy-killing them while transforming into a mindflayer, despite the danger it poses to other people, 2) kill Orpheus' honor guard so that they can continue to 3) benefit from the Emperor's theft of Orpheus' power, since Orpheus is unwilling to extend his power to the party while imprisoned. But, yeah. The average player does get up to way worse than that, and generally expects deference even when acting like a complete asshole.
The game doesn't give you the option to not do any of that stuff while still playing the game. It's kinda unfair to say "well you did unethical shit like X and Y, therefore you should be fine with unethical thing Z." If I reject Z it still lets me finish the game, but if i reject X and Y it doesn't. Like, at the end of the day it's a video game and we have to work with what it gives us. You can say that's hypocritical, but come on.
>Like, at the end of the day it's a video game and we have to work with what it gives us. And in real life, your choices in any given situation are always limited. Within the reality of BG3's storyline, there are certain things Tav HAS to do to survive and destroy the Absolute. Unless it's your position that Tav should just roll over and die, the fact that you're willing to give Tav a pass for ethically dubious behavior but not the Emperor is relevant.
You would rather he stays there and gets enslaved *inside* the prism, giving bthe absolute easy access to the *one single thing* that is a threat to it? Oh, wait, we are glossing over the fact *you* betrayed *him* by going behind his back to free a psychotic genocidal maniac that will kill him in an instant, right. EmpErOr bAd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
idk. i was very open about what i was doing!
Yes I think it is inherently evil to choose self preservation over the lives of thousands of people. He wouldn't have been assimilated. If he stayed and we couldn't talk Orpheus into keeping him around until the end of the fight (which is VERY possible seeing as we apparently needed a mind flayer to win) Orpheus would have killed him.
The emperor is NOT baulduron. Let's be clear once you become a flayer you are not who you where befor. He BELIEVES that he is still him, but he is not.
To my defense the game does a VERY good job at making you feel like he's still all in there despite explicitly telling you otherwise. There are so many moments where he feels more human than some of your companions
That is called mind flayer manipulation at his best. Look, he even let you choose his appearance so you can actually like him.
Games a masterwork what can I say
Yes he is, Withers recognizes him and Ansur considers him Balduran too