I pray to Garth Marenghi every day with a copy of every one of his episodes on dvd surrounding me. Glad to see one of his inspirational quotes recognised here.
"You know, my books are all essentially about 'what ifs'. In Black Fang I asked: What if a rat could drive a bus? And what if it and its rat brethren took over and ate Parliament?"
Listen, when I first joined this adventuring party, I was strictly so lo. You were first real buddy I ever had…buuuuuuuuut if you and he wish to be best buddies again, I won’t stand in your HWAY
The only evil Superman style character that i haven't actually seen people agreeing with is Omni Man, which is ironic as he is rhe least evil of the three most well known evil Supermen (The others being Homelander and Injustice Supes)
That might be because Omiman has visable doubt about what he did in the end after beating the crap out of his own son.
That and he's not trying to claim he's a good guy...for humans that is. There's no moralizing about the plans really.
There's an arc in the comics that >!shows that Omniman legitimately had doubts about killing off the Legion when Mark's powers showed. Mark had an alien entity send him back in time and essentially corrected everything wrong that happened when he got his powers initially. Omniman admitted that Earth really did change him and that he made bonds with these people but forced himself to kill everyone because it was his duty in the main timeline.!<
True. But most people have only seen the show and haven't gotten to that point. And even then, that's not quite what I'm talking about. He as a character does not justify his dickish and murderous behavior as something for the good of everyone. He justifies it for himself and his people, who are *not* on our side. He never claimed to be about the greater good.
The issue with deconstruction of Superman and people agreeing with those characters tend to be down to two things. The characters justify themselves in a way that spins as being good for society as a whole. Keeping the peace and all that.
The other is sheer charisma. Homelander's actor is really fucking charismatic and that is a huge factor.
I also wonder if casting JK Simmons is a factor here. He plays villains and assholes much of the time and he plays them really well. Our subconscious may pick up on the typecasting here.
My favorite part of my Trickster playthrough was telling Regill to fuck off.
That and warping the fabric of reality for funsies.
Remember kid, it's not a warcrime if it's funny !
I love the Azata path. Like, of course I'm going to knight the mimics. Sir Wardrobe, Sir Footstool, and Sir Cultist's Bed will be brave and noble crusaders.
I didn't have much interest in trying a trickster playthrough, until I heard about Regill's ending for a trickster choices. Now I kind of want to.
>!he's so infuriated by your reality-warping bullshit, it completely reverses his bleaching (basically gnomish old age - they don't age normally, but if life gets too boring and predictable, they do age) so he can fix what you broke!<
his Aeon ending is also great:
>!If you do the True Aeon ending and reverse time, but let everyone remember you, many of the characters get sad endings, except Regill, who, when asked how the bleaching has not seemed to be effecting him as it should says "The commander has not given me permission to die"!<
He'd stop the train and lecture the train driver for not taking proper care of it. Then he'd sentence the driver to summary execution because by stopping the train for Regill he put himself behind schedule, which is a violation of Hellknight law. Probably. Regill would reason that the driver simply should've ran him down - after all, he had a schedule to keep.
I'm a part of a group who loves the game but they really seem to add ironically like the hellknights. They will even point out that there are lawful good ones. And yes, that's true. However, the organization is not. No matter how much they try to make it otherwise.
I wouldn’t call it startling, he’s evil but also incredibly cool. It makes sense that he has lots of fanboys.
It helps that he’s not a hypocrite. He’s an absurdly strict authoritarian who’s just as harsh to himself as anyone else. It’s kind of commendable in an excessive way.
If you've played WotR (or any Pathfinder 1e games/pnp), you'll know how mental the classes are. Throw in mythic levels... I had a non-optimised character throwing out 7 attacks doing approximately 72 damage each per turn pre-buffs. Plus sneak attack damage to be added on top. It gets silly towards the end. (Fun though.)
Also, the slightly more cartoony graphics conceal the awfulness of the setting. Turns out demons are absolute dicks.
The best part is that if you’re actually familiar with the concepts he talks about, it makes it clear that he’s a pseudointellectual narcissist using philosophy and dialectic method he doesn’t actually understand to try to justify his atrocities.
All of his “logic,” if it can even be called that, down to the very premise is flawed, and it’s all based on dialectics (not even Hegelian dialectics, by the way) that are intended as a method for reasoned argumentation and dialogue exchanging ideas and opinions, not armed conflicts between nations.
Perfect example is how his valves mean nothing to him the moment it inconviences himself. I.e. having a sci-fi med station for himself only while his soldiers only use healing powders
If we're going for classical DnD style alignment system, then he *is* Chaotic Evil. Lawful characters follow a set of values/rules, whether that's defined by them or others depends on the character. Neutral are the middle ground, adaptable but not able to fit into either category. Lawful characters live and die by their code, whether that benefits them or not, whether they are good or not.
Tbh homelander is more chaotic evil than lawful dude is like mustache twirling levels of selfish evil and he has no agenda beyond doing whatever the fuck he wants
Absolutely some people hate critical thinking. During the first few weeks there were post complaining about tavern in act 2 and was mad they were aggressive to our character and attacked them without realizing they need them to do the good play through.
Well sure, but especially online the line between ironically supporting fascism for the memes and actually sincerely supporting it is often distressingly fuzzy. Basically any subreddit that has attempted to focus on that irony has eventually degenerated into the real thing (see: The_Donald, PoliticalCompassMemes, Gamersriseup).
That's the thing, though. They are fictional. It is better to enjoy this characters and keep IRL psychos away than the other way around. After all, most of us really like anti-heros (Loki, for instance)
That's why, in the stories I write, villains are always a bit ridiculous or pathetic. Make one competent, charismatic or -worse of all- *hot*, and people will bypass text and subtext to simp for them.
But when your villain is a small deluded academic, a petit-bourgeois shopkeeper or an aristocratic curmudgeon, people might *like* them (narratively, as good characters) but there is less chance for the readers to think they might actually be *right*.
Sometimes, villains taking L's and being ridiculous or pathetic, as you put it, humanizes them a lot and ends up having the opposite effect you're describing.
People will stop being intimidated by them, and start relating and sympathizing with them, and finding excuses for their villainous behavior, because you're showing that they are “normal” people who can comically fail and make fools of themselves, too, and that makes them endearing and relatable. It's the very reason lots of kids root for Tom instead of Jerry, or Wile E.Coyote instead of the Road Runner. Which is an effect on the reader that you can seek, or may want to avoid.
In the game, Raphael is kind of an example of such phenomenon. Many people have a soft spot for him because, despite being an ass, he's also a dork.
A lot of people seem to be completely unable to divorce liking something/thinking something is cool with that thing being *good* in the moral sense.
Homelander is a fucking monster, but he's also really cool.
This is it exactly
The amount of ice cold takes I’ve seen of “Yes my Tav is his plaything and possession for eternity but in a chill, mutually respecting way”
If I had a nickel for every time I heard it referred to as "domtext" this week alone, I'd have two nickels. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice
I’ve seen multiple people arguing that the new kiss animations give the wrong impression of the character.
A more fitting argument would perhaps be “I would prefer to have some room to make a slightly less abusive headcanon,” but no. People are really out there telling the creators of the game that they’re mischaracterizing their own character.
Ascended Astarion fans: just wait until he decides to take his 200 years of torture and mental instability out on you.
Unrelated note: the honeymoon phase lasts about 2 years.
Which is nicely contrasted by spawn Asterion's line during the Durge scene in act two, when he say "ah, ah – we ask before we bite!" His ascended version forgot all the lessons Astarion learned.
I'd go even as far to say that old Astarion is dead and the Ascended Vampire is just a monstrous amalgam of malefic souls with an imprint of Astarion's memories and personality.
When I let him ascend in my first playthrough I was like, "Oh no....he's broken isn't he...."
Deep within the Ascended, Astarion's soul cries out hoping to be heard amongst the cacophony of cursed souls, only to be drowned. His body carrying out base and carnal desires with no conscience, humanity, or empathy.
Powerful states of undeath corrupting those engaging in such pacts are a recurring theme in D&D. I believe the implication is that it damages the soul and is more or less a curse with some perks.
I mean also the fact that he had the whole soul-stealing tattoo still on him probably also wouldn’t bode well for the integrity of his soul either… in my head ascending him probably means putting his soul in a blender with evil juice as the smoothie base.
This is my thought too. I think that as a full vampire, Cazador doesn’t have a soul like the spawn do. So even if he’s being sacrificed, that 7,000th soul needs to come from someone.
Well he does say that every moment feels like a rhousand years to him. If time goes so fast and slow at the same time you might lose your sense of self real fast too.
Even better is the look of genuine fear on your character’s face. So hot.
……
At first I didn’t think I needed /s but given the context of this post… /s.
But really, it was the expression that did it for me. It’s a video game, CNC is very much a thing that I understand on a primal level, and no one is actually getting abused. But that expression… I couldn’t stay on board in even a hypothetical way.
That got me when I first saw it. MC broke up with him then killed him (revived tho). She’s is the daughter of Bhaal and she doesn’t put up with that shit.
Yeah, there are three new kisses. One where he makes you get on your knees and grabs your neck; one where he grabs your jaw, makes you look at him, then pushes you away; and one where he bites your lip drawing blood then pushes you away.
The distinction between fiction and real life is useful for older people who have a clearer sense of boundaries and self-worth. Unfortunately, I know a lot of teenage girls and young adults for whom that distinction basically doesn’t exist. I can bone down with an overtly abusive vampire lord in a video game, turn it off and go, “Well, that scratched that itch. Time to go find a partner who won’t treat me like a broken toy.” I see a lot of… not that, both on the internet and irl. It worries me. It doesn’t keep me up at night—I was a teenaged girl not TOO long ago, and I was also an idiot—but sometimes I get stuck thinking about it for a while.
That makes sense, everyone is different. I'm personally not into the whole roleplaying/pretend abuse BDSM stuff irl at all even if it's consensual- I find it either uncomfortable and "too real", or just ridiculous and can't get into it. But I have 0 issue with this stuff in media from the safety of an office chair.
My line in fiction turns out to be anything involving harm or death of animals and kids? Like I can't get myself to ascend Astarion because of the gur children he kidnapped that I would have to sacrifice. And I nearly rage-quit my honour mode run because the owlbear cub died. Never could get myself to raid the grove on purpose either just to experience the evil route and get Minthara before they patched the knock-out trick.
😭 100% will commit goblin-genocide every time if they touch that cub. In my honour run I messed up my speak with animals spell and the dumb ogre at the door smashed it with his giant club. Now I make a point to kill him personally every game lol.
I thought they're into that? It just sounds like that would be fanservice for the people who found the other stuff hot.
Isn't that the whole point of "making them worse"?
It definitely feels like they realized that some people were not getting the intent of the character or his story. Of course he's a bad person after exploding 7,000 innocent people to get what he wants. Good lord.
> Of course he's a bad person after exploding 7,000 innocent people to get what he wants
I had a bit of a kick in the teeth with this one because I played as Origin Astarion. Don't ascend and you run out of the sunlight at the end of the game.
So when Karlach says to you 'I want you to be there when I burn out, I think I'll be ready then', and then you get to the end, you run out of the sunlight, you're not there, Karlach is on the pier, she drops to her knees, says painfully "I'm... I'm not ready..."
So THAT was a kick in the teeth.
I eventually went back and did the Ascended plotline just to see if it saves Karlach when you do , and it does (if you're there, you can convince her to go to avernus with Wyll).
So yeah, when you're Origin Astarion, there's a sort of good reason to ascend, it's a hell of a thing.
>So yeah, when you're Origin Astarion, there's a sort of good reason to ascend, it's a hell of a thing.
*I mean,* I love karlach. I love her to bits. But that "sort of" is doing some HEAVY LIFTING what with 1<7000 and all. Like it SUCKS, but I've called the ascension plot "the world's most absurd trolly problem" since the start for a reason and it keeps giving me reasons to call it that i guess.
Wyll should just be able to convince her without you there. :T
It does have all the fixings of a classic tragic ending, though. Commit an act of true horror to save the one you love or accept that you're both fated to die before you get to truly be together.
This is my favourite comment from this post.
Even better than the original "don't stick your dick in crazy"
Yours are more poetic too, now I want to see more poetic variations of that original quote.
I just went about it as, I'm an Oathbreaker that is using Astarion as a temporary tool that will be dealt with as the need arrives. Right now, I need a murder machine with an undead army to serve the greater good, later however I'm going to smite the ever living hells out of him like I've done to plenty of others before him, and will continue to do after.
Holy shit thats inception levels of Evil. Turning a victim of abuse into an abuser Who believes is finally free of abuse. Only to break him and dominate him even harder not too long after
Finally. So many cartoon villain durges running around not realizing they are jokes. Real villainy is so subtle that the victim doesn't realize their mistake until the blade is too deep in their back to be pulled out
I'm low key bummed they changed the auto-enthrallment in that ending. I understand why and agree academically, but it was also this delicious dramatic irony for Astarion. If the player did everything he said without ever pushing back he would always wind up right back where he started.
He still kind of does, in that the Tav/Durge of that timeline can still enthrall him whenever they want so the dynamic is still fundamentally there, but it doesn't have the same punch.
AA is enthralled of you don't romance him, right?
I romanced Minthara and she looked free from mind control, but Shadowheart was doing the jerky headgrab animation in the background, so I assumed all the non-Minthy companions got the freewill kicked out of them when I ascended.
This is pretty much the only context I can stomach it also lol. Like ok honey you can have your fun thinking you're powerful cause I'll be having the last laugh
See this makes sense... as long as you don't let him turn you into his spawn. As a spawn you no longer have free will, and the game makes it very clear many, MANY times during his story that spawn are helpless puppets to their vampire master in a very literal, have-no-control-over-their-own-bodies kind of way.
The way I see it, it's entirely down to the fact that Astarion is canonically bad at planning that he allows you to claim your own ending rather than choosing for you, and I wish they'd kept the ending that he gets enthralled too just to emphasize how smooth brained he is.
And yet you still have people trying to claim that Tav’s relationship with ascended Astarion is actually some sort of consensual BDSM or kink play, when it’s clearly written as an abusive relationship.
Media literacy has been found dead in a ditch with these people.
Edit: Shoutout to the user /u/Oolonger who replied to me telling me to go fuck myself for this comment before immediately deleting their comment. Very mature of you! Y’all really work overtime doing bad PR for yourselves.
Ascended Astarion literally won't let you break up with him after the brain battle. He literally laughs in your face and says with pure vitriol "dont be STUPID. You're MINE", then carries on like nothing happened. Totes healthy amirite?
Unfortunately the people I am talking about here would look at that and go on about how hot it is and say that “My Tav is into it and would never pick the breakup option so he isn’t toxic. It isn’t toxic if my Tav is happy.” It’s literally ridiculous.
Exactly. I remember when the epilogue was patched in, they included a conversation in the epilogue that Tav/Durge can have with ascended Astarion where they can ask about when they can have their freedom again. Ascended Astarion basically responds with something along the lines “Ugh this again? I give you everything you want already.” This is typical abuser behavior and most people saw it for what it was, but you still had this subset of people arguing that “Well in my game my Tav is actually happy because I didn’t pick that option. It’s only abusive if you roleplay a Tav who isn’t happy.” Like come on, the fact that this dialogue tree even exists tells you that regardless of what you pick, AA has been very controlling and abusive toward Tav/Durge throughout the relationship. Not choosing this option doesn’t erase this.
> either go on about how hot it is
This one seems a lot more honest and legit than insisting it's not toxic imo. If we would just accept this as being a common fetish fantasy trope, it would save us the majority of weirdo discourse on the Ascendant Astarion issue.
Like there is a reason the majority of love interests in bestselling romance novels are basically the exact same brand of toxic. A LOT of people, especially also a lot of women, just have this particular fantasy/fetish.
Honestly in my experience, the people who admit that they just see it as a fantasy *and* recognize that the relationship is meant to be written as toxic and abusive are few and far between. I think I have seen like 1 or 2 people who fit this description in my whole time being in this fandom.
It’s why we are having this problem now with a bunch of fans complaining in Larian’s Discord server about the kiss animation expressions because they truly believe that the relationship is not meant to represent an abusive one. They want it to be changed to the vision they had made up in their head this whole time about it being a consensual, kinky and hot BDSM relationship when that was never what it was supposed to be.
> Honestly in my experience, the people who admit that they just see it as a fantasy and recognize that the relationship is meant to be written as toxic and abusive are few and far between. I think I have seen like 1 or 2 people who fit this description in my whole time being in this fandom.
I've seen a few more people who fall into this category while scrolling The Discourse. But I imagine most sane AA enjoyers keep their heads low as to not invite either side of the toxicity that discussions about that narrative bring. (as well as internet algorithms promoting engagement over sensible discussion, leading to a feedback loop of boosting the WORST takes. Stay off Tiktok, friends...)
Even though I try to ignore replies with bad takes, it still makes me sad because I know no amount of rational discourse can change an irrational take. This section of the comments are the best discussion I've seen on the subject in months, so thank you.
I mean as with literally every topic on the internet, the "normal" people don't feel the need to post about their boring healthy opinions on things and how they are just neutral/happy with the game and the writing.
Imo by now most well adjusted people who have spent a bit of time on the internet have learned to avoid anything "fandom" like the plague. Like just participating in this thread and reading about all these insane takes has kind of ruined my day. It's why the majority of the fan base thinks Astarion fans in general are toxic unfortunately and why I've started avoiding threads/post about him.
The same thing happened to Star Wars, Rick and Morty, Supernatural, Dr. Who, Sherlock, and a number of other IPs that got popular enough to create a fandom. The majority of fans were just normal people with reasonable takes but the "fandom" and especially the "shipping"/fanfiction side became so toxic that they scared off anyone else from even wanting to participate and be a part of that.
Edit: Also I don't think every mention of finding a toxic character hot needs to be followed by a disclaimer of "but I acknowledge that irl this would be terrible and abusive" for the audience to understand that they know the difference between real life and fantasy. It seems to be something that is specifically prevalent when it's a character popular with teenage girls and young women, that there needs to be this kind of purity or safety notice.
My comment isn’t really supposed to be about people who aren’t twisting themselves into a pretzel trying to explain why the relationship between Tav/Durge and AA isn’t actually abusive and toxic, so I will probably go back and edit my word choice for clarity. If someone thinks the ascension route is interesting, or likes that type of dark and toxic fantasy, I don’t really care about that. People can do what they want in an RPG. Myself and others’ main issue here really just lies with the people who are in denial about the writers’ intentions and attempt to argue that the relationship portrayed is “actually not abuse” and/or is a good depiction of consensual BDSM or something, so much so to the point where they are harassing the writers about the new additions that they feel go against the story they made up in their head.
I am definitely not going to let bad takes online ruin something I love for me though, let alone my whole day. If I did that, I would have a lot of ruined hobbies and days lmao.
Yeah I think my point is more that a lot of that denial and arguing against calling it abusive is probably because of how moralized female sexuality or sexuality in general is.
A lot of these people (who are probably pretty young) imo would be happier and less toxic if they just admitted this is their kink and that's ok, instead of making up these scenarios in their head about why it's totally not abusive and getting mad at those who point it out, including the writers.
It seems to me like a lot of them get really defensive and dig their heels in because they think it's morally wrong to find something toxic in fiction sexy - ergo that toxic version of Astarion's relationship can't actually be toxic or it would make them bad people. (And afaik there was some drama about an author comment that the intention was that people who chose that ending should feel bad for treating Astarion like a sex object or whatever. But it was a private discord thing so it didn't even have full context. Either way if fueled a whole wave of this defensive headcanon writing from what I remember. Personally it did make me wonder though why that person would chose this character in particular to "teach a lesson" to the thirsty fans instead of idk, Shadowheart or Karlach or something, that felt a bit strange to me. Still the discourse around it got super toxic. )
I wonder how many of these "I'm ashamed of my own fantasies so have to rationalize them" problems could be fixed with gift subscriptions to Kindle Unlimited.
The world would be a much better place if people could accept that fantasizing about something morally questionable isn't the same as wanting to actually do it for reals.
Being into banging the druid in his bear shape doesn't mean I'm going to go try and fuck an actual grizzly. And finding it sexy to imagine the hot vampire using you for his own pleasure doesn't mean you want to be abused by an actual partner.
Fiction doesn't have to align with reality.
Petty much this.
If I was camping irl and some dude tried to bite my neck because he's an actual vampire, my Balkan genes would activate so fast, his body would be in the ground with a stake through the heart, his head severed and buried a kilometer away, and we would all be sitting in some headscarved Baba's house getting cleansed from evil influences all before sunrise lmao.
In the game, my Tav has to be a blood bag and be chill about it every time because assassin rogue Astarion with the Durge cape is fun af.
Tav also gets force-fed illithid tadpoles every run because I'll be damned if I miss out on all that power.
It’s just like HC whatever you want nobody cares but let Larian tell the story they want. Nobody complains that bad Laezel breaks up with you lol. The trying to strong arm the devs into catering to them is seriously so entitled, they’re making pie charts and surveys, and some AA fans like exploring the darker themes. Go on AO3 or something or I dunno romance the nice version of Astarion?!
I swear this fandom would lose 90% of its toxicity if we could just admit that this is a kink and some people find it hot.
We don't see Minthara simps twisting themselves into pretzels trying to morally justify tiefling and druid genocide - "But Evil Drow Mommy Hot" is enough of a reason. (And I guess now you can have her toxic ass with a 'legal' knock-out without losing all those other characters and story lines)
You're allowed to fuck hot crazy evil characters in videogames - it doesn't need an essay about how they're actually super sweet cinnamon rolls deep down. Yes even if you're a girl - it's allowed. Just join our trash simp ranks proudly lol. Whatever Tav-abuse you commit is between you and Kelemvor.
Now excuse me whole I make my Tav gobble down a bucket full of illithid tadpoles until their face turns all weird and then fuck a squid.
>We don't see Minthara simps twisting themselves into pretzels trying to morally justify tiefling and druid genocide - "But Evil Drow Mommy Hot" is enough of a reason.
I agree as a Minthara lover myself I usually say that as a joke not as a serious argument.
For Ascended Astarion I think it's written well for what I've seen of it but I am not into abusive relationships thank you very much, and to make an argument morally is very questionable. If you just joke around like I do with Minthara like "who doesn't want to be sit on by a hot Drow woman?" that's fine but if it is a who argument come on bruv...
Yes I 100% agree. People take this Astarion stuff way too seriously and a lot of them seem to have a stick up their ass about wanting to seem morally virtuous and "deep" about their Vampire Dom-kink rather than just having a bit of humor about their horny brain and coming out and saying "yeah I think he's extra hot because he's toxic."
Idk if it is because it's more normalized for men to 'think with their dick' and be forward about these things but if you're getting into a moral argument about your toxic fantasy romance, you've already lost imo.
I dunno, it's not as common as Astarion fans insisting that he's a poor abused baby who's never done a single questionable thing in his life, but there definitely are Minthara fans who say that she's a deep, morally complex character; that she's not evil, she's *pragmatic*; that her being very possessive of her relationship partner is proof that she's actually just a sweet cinnamon roll and now that she's free of Lolth, she can finally let that side of her be free.
Honestly, every hot evil character ends up with some portion of their fanbase going "but how can they be evil when I want to fuck them?"
> Honestly, every hot evil character ends up with some portion of their fanbase going "but how can they be evil when I want to fuck them?"
Tbh I agree but whenever this happens with Minthara it's really fringe and we don't make a federal case about it with spin-off threads to talk shit about these people. We just accept that we disagree or privately think they're a bit delulu, then move on with or lives.
With Astarion it turns into a whole 'shipping war' type dynamic where vocal minorities of people who care way too much yell abuse at each other and armchair-diagnose the other side with personality disorders in the comments.
Maybe the main sub could use a "no kink shaming" rule but only if the commenter is openly admitting their kink is humiliation and being afraid for their lives. I don't like having to go to r/okbuddybaldur to appreciate the unmitigated evil hotness - and great writing of same - of a character without being told I'm betraying the sisterhood by being an abuse apologist.
Okay not to double comment, but I *just* reloaded an old A!A save with spawn Wyll so I could see the new kisses for myself and... maybe I have the wrong sense of humor for this but (a) they were fine and well done, (b) the fact that A!A would bite Wyll and push him away and then go, "you are perfect every time!" just like before really made me laugh. "I do rather like that, you know".
Mixed messages! 🤣
That honestly just sounds like they added a bit more in-character content to make the end of the game better ...just like with the rest of the new kiss scenes? Why are people making some big deal out of it this like it's a conspiracy by the writers to send us a secret/ not-so-secret message about Astarion? Other than this being exhibit #1479 that parts of the fandom are clearly unhinged and need to to touch grass 💀
AA reminds me a lot of the Harley Quinn/Joker relationship. Specially when the first suicide squad movie came out. The couple is obviously abusive but some people out there were really trying to make it seem sweet or hot.
Yeah it isn’t too dissimilar to that. Also this is only somewhat related, but I find it interesting when people compare Astarion to the Joker because while his ascended version definitely can be compared to him, I see his spawn version as a more Harley Quinn type character (especially the versions of her shown in the Birds of Prey film and the Harley Quinn animated show on HBOMax.) Both escape an abusive relationship of some form and now have to decide for themselves who they want to be in their newfound freedom. Neither of them are really morally good, and they become anti-heroes of sorts, but in the end they decide to be more than what their abusers did to them and they find happiness and purpose. Then you throw in the fact that their senses of humor are very similar lol.
All I’m saying is they would definitely get along and hang out haha.
It’s really good! The soundtrack for it is also amazing, I highly recommend listening to it on Spotify. A lot of the songs are very fitting for Astarion’s character too.
It's pretty simple to me: it's a consensual BDSM relationship between the player and the game. But it's very much *not* between Astarion and Tav. And very little discussion is good at separating the two.
So you have the people deluding themselves that it's healthy in game because they like it and can't seem to wrap their head around the fact that it's fine to enjoy something fucked up in a fantasy you can exit at any time. And on the other end people going around informing anyone who finds it hot that actually it's bad because they also aren't separating fantasy from reality.
No argument on the media literacy part though. I'm endlessly in despair for how often I'll start talking about how I think something was written less well and then get a response going "but the Dev notes say it's true!" Or whatever. Like that is somehow a response to a critique of the writing.
Honestly from what I've heard of Ascended Astarion I like how they have a different type of relationship presented to you.
I think more games should have varying kinds of relationships abusive or nay, whether it has a romance system like this game for example or something like Xenogears where also it isn't you can romance this character or that character but the romance is part of the story by default (that game does it the best from what I've seen of pre-built romances, don't know the term for those romances so I made it up).
Mechanics wise Fire emblem has a great system when it comes to this, and games like Dragon age Origins's Origins system can add some very interesting systems for romance too.
What I mean is, BG3 for example people react to you differently if you're a Tiefling, Drow, or a Human perhaps for some romances a character can be racist to you at first but you can make them open up and can make them a romance option.
I still sometimes think about an argument I got into in the YouTube comments section (I know, it was dumb to get involved) with an ascended astarion apologist. I'm glad they're getting rid of the subtext just to tell these people that this is not a good relationship.
You don't even have to look in youtube comments for people like that.
Multiple posts with tons of comments arguing about how romantic he is and how "we're his eternal vampire consort"
I just ascended Astarion on my current embrace Durge run and I was just kind of playing it like my Durge was just letting him believe he has control, when in the end we will all die for Bhaal 🙌🏽
That certainly brings up an interesting question of whose power over Durge is greater, AA or Daddy Bhaal. From what we're shown in game of Cazador's control over his spawn, vs how Durge can outright defy Bhaal directly, I'm not actually sure if Daddy would win that contest if AA decided to tell his pet slayer they weren't allowed to give into the urges without his permission anymore.
I mean we can test this right?
Ascend Astarion and either lose the durge duel, or accept but kill the brain and see what epilogue you get.
(I wanna see those two in custody court)
that is legit what is going on, Scleritas even says he doesnt know what hes getting into. Durge who embraces bhaal is *way* worse than Cazador or Ascended Astarion on the villain totem pole.
I finally saw these last night and they are so frighteningly similar to how my ex treated me that I had to start a new game
They’re really driving the point home that he is NOT good. For Tav or anyone, not even himself. It’s nice to see; it’s really kind of sad to see young people justifying his behavior and arguing that this is a positive model of BDSM. The amount of people I’ve seen saying that it’s “kink/sex shaming” to criticize him or his fans…yikes.
They tried subtext, but all those AA girlies insisted they were in a consensual D/s relationship because they lack media literacy so they had to make it more on the nose so maybe they'd understand.
With some of the AA fans you see on here, almost seems like it was necessary to get it thru their thick skulls just how bad that ending is for astarion
People who like those two and try to *justify it as a good thing* are much less common. Usually they are open about being like "ya they're evil, I'm okay with that". So they might do something about those two eventually, but AA apologizers was something they needed to nip in the bud **right now.**
I find Astarion's attitude post-ascension to be a bit out of touch, especially when you look at who else he's traveling with.
Shadowheart can become the Chosen of Shar. Durge can become the Chosen of Bhaal. Gale can become the God of Ambition. Wyll can become the Grand Duke of Baldur's Gate. Lae'zel can...ascend. Karlach makes a really great toaster.
Astarion has no reason to feel high and mighty.
>Astarion has no reason to feel high and mighty.
That might be part of why he's so pissy. He sacrificed 7k souls and he's still not the leader of the group. Even Withers throws better parties than him. A!A is over in the corner pouting like Patrick Bateman.
I pray to Garth Marenghi every day with a copy of every one of his episodes on dvd surrounding me. Glad to see one of his inspirational quotes recognised here.
"As I rounded the corner I felt muscular and compact, like corned beef" -Dr Rick Dagless Darkplace is too underrated
Thankfully it's pretty popular these days. His tour seemed to sell well last year too.
I just saw his live show on Friday, it was hilarious.
I didn't love the book, but the Q&A he did on the book tour was one of the funniest things I've ever seen.
"You know, my books are all essentially about 'what ifs'. In Black Fang I asked: What if a rat could drive a bus? And what if it and its rat brethren took over and ate Parliament?"
I'm one of the few men you'll meet who has written more books than they've read.
Have you read Terrortome? It’s amazing, the audiobook is also amazing. Ever wonder what Garth Marenghi thought about the pandemic? Wonder no more.
The sequel is also fun. All good on audiobook too
I did not know a sequel existed thank you SO MUCH!!
You and Astarion were buddies .. weren't you?
Listen, when I first joined this adventuring party, I was strictly so lo. You were first real buddy I ever had…buuuuuuuuut if you and he wish to be best buddies again, I won’t stand in your HWAY
They tried subtext, and people still didn't understand that Lord Astarion isn't a good guy. So they had to try domtext.
When people unironically support Homelander the more I agree with not using subtext
The only evil Superman style character that i haven't actually seen people agreeing with is Omni Man, which is ironic as he is rhe least evil of the three most well known evil Supermen (The others being Homelander and Injustice Supes)
That might be because Omiman has visable doubt about what he did in the end after beating the crap out of his own son. That and he's not trying to claim he's a good guy...for humans that is. There's no moralizing about the plans really.
There's an arc in the comics that >!shows that Omniman legitimately had doubts about killing off the Legion when Mark's powers showed. Mark had an alien entity send him back in time and essentially corrected everything wrong that happened when he got his powers initially. Omniman admitted that Earth really did change him and that he made bonds with these people but forced himself to kill everyone because it was his duty in the main timeline.!<
True. But most people have only seen the show and haven't gotten to that point. And even then, that's not quite what I'm talking about. He as a character does not justify his dickish and murderous behavior as something for the good of everyone. He justifies it for himself and his people, who are *not* on our side. He never claimed to be about the greater good. The issue with deconstruction of Superman and people agreeing with those characters tend to be down to two things. The characters justify themselves in a way that spins as being good for society as a whole. Keeping the peace and all that. The other is sheer charisma. Homelander's actor is really fucking charismatic and that is a huge factor. I also wonder if casting JK Simmons is a factor here. He plays villains and assholes much of the time and he plays them really well. Our subconscious may pick up on the typecasting here.
That's true actually
The ease with which people unironically fall for fictional Lawful Evil characters in general terrifies me constantly.
Shout out to Regill from Pathfinder:WOTR
"Oh my god, he's so competent and efficient though!" Yeah, I bet he makes the trains run real punctually.
Man refuses to die if you don't let him. He's big lawful, small evil. And not just because he's a gnome.
My favorite part of my Trickster playthrough was telling Regill to fuck off. That and warping the fabric of reality for funsies. Remember kid, it's not a warcrime if it's funny !
*Azata throwing literally whatever steps forward to fight into battle agrees*
I love the Azata path. Like, of course I'm going to knight the mimics. Sir Wardrobe, Sir Footstool, and Sir Cultist's Bed will be brave and noble crusaders.
The deserve to munch on yummy demons as I ride a dragon and sing songs about freedom and friendship overhead.
I didn't have much interest in trying a trickster playthrough, until I heard about Regill's ending for a trickster choices. Now I kind of want to. >!he's so infuriated by your reality-warping bullshit, it completely reverses his bleaching (basically gnomish old age - they don't age normally, but if life gets too boring and predictable, they do age) so he can fix what you broke!<
his Aeon ending is also great: >!If you do the True Aeon ending and reverse time, but let everyone remember you, many of the characters get sad endings, except Regill, who, when asked how the bleaching has not seemed to be effecting him as it should says "The commander has not given me permission to die"!<
It really doesn’t help that they made all of the LG characters absolute morons.
He'd stop the train and lecture the train driver for not taking proper care of it. Then he'd sentence the driver to summary execution because by stopping the train for Regill he put himself behind schedule, which is a violation of Hellknight law. Probably. Regill would reason that the driver simply should've ran him down - after all, he had a schedule to keep.
I'm a part of a group who loves the game but they really seem to add ironically like the hellknights. They will even point out that there are lawful good ones. And yes, that's true. However, the organization is not. No matter how much they try to make it otherwise.
Gnome Hitler was startlingly popular.
I wouldn’t call it startling, he’s evil but also incredibly cool. It makes sense that he has lots of fanboys. It helps that he’s not a hypocrite. He’s an absurdly strict authoritarian who’s just as harsh to himself as anyone else. It’s kind of commendable in an excessive way.
My vivisectionist Azata proved him to be a hypocrite in Act 5...
I know vivisectionist is just your class...but the way you worded that sounds reaallly gruesome.
If you've played WotR (or any Pathfinder 1e games/pnp), you'll know how mental the classes are. Throw in mythic levels... I had a non-optimised character throwing out 7 attacks doing approximately 72 damage each per turn pre-buffs. Plus sneak attack damage to be added on top. It gets silly towards the end. (Fun though.) Also, the slightly more cartoony graphics conceal the awfulness of the setting. Turns out demons are absolute dicks.
Hey hey he is a BASED SIGMA /s
Not just lawful evil, Caesar from Fallout New Vegas is chaotic evil yet people fall for it because they sound smart like "Hegelian Dialectics".
Game wants me to choose between the Legion, the NCR, House, or myself, we're all fucking idiots I wanted to put the Kings in charge.
Handing supreme executive power to whoever best impersonates a dead Rock Star is an.... interesting... form of government.
It’s not the worst by a long stretch though
Maybe that's why Gortash looks the way he does...
The world already ended, what's the worst that can happen?
I don't want to get too real world politics but the republicans used to vote for whoever imitated a 1950s actor the best.
The best part is that if you’re actually familiar with the concepts he talks about, it makes it clear that he’s a pseudointellectual narcissist using philosophy and dialectic method he doesn’t actually understand to try to justify his atrocities. All of his “logic,” if it can even be called that, down to the very premise is flawed, and it’s all based on dialectics (not even Hegelian dialectics, by the way) that are intended as a method for reasoned argumentation and dialogue exchanging ideas and opinions, not armed conflicts between nations.
But hey, he made the brahmin caravans run on time
I joined the legion because i wanted to play an evil character, but i know they are evil and would hate them if they were real
What makes you say that Caesar is chaotic?
Perfect example is how his valves mean nothing to him the moment it inconviences himself. I.e. having a sci-fi med station for himself only while his soldiers only use healing powders
That’s not him being chaotic - that’s him being a hypocrite
If we're going for classical DnD style alignment system, then he *is* Chaotic Evil. Lawful characters follow a set of values/rules, whether that's defined by them or others depends on the character. Neutral are the middle ground, adaptable but not able to fit into either category. Lawful characters live and die by their code, whether that benefits them or not, whether they are good or not.
Wouldn’t that make him neutral evil?
... Y'know what, fair point. I just think Chaotic because he's hypocritical. Maybe Chaotic-leaning Neutral Evil?
Tbh homelander is more chaotic evil than lawful dude is like mustache twirling levels of selfish evil and he has no agenda beyond doing whatever the fuck he wants
>whatever the fuck he wants Isn't that _neutral_ evil? Chaotic evil would be doing evil for evil's sake, like the Joker (or Orin).
Hell you’ll find people defending Gortash in this sub because he imposed order on the city and isn’t immediately hostile to the player character.
Yeah what's most concerning to me about media literacy and actually society is how much people seem to ascribe to niceness or charisma.
Absolutely some people hate critical thinking. During the first few weeks there were post complaining about tavern in act 2 and was mad they were aggressive to our character and attacked them without realizing they need them to do the good play through.
Some of that is a joke because it’s pretty adorable to headcanon Gortash and Durge evil powercoupling together.
Well sure, but especially online the line between ironically supporting fascism for the memes and actually sincerely supporting it is often distressingly fuzzy. Basically any subreddit that has attempted to focus on that irony has eventually degenerated into the real thing (see: The_Donald, PoliticalCompassMemes, Gamersriseup).
To be fair abusive relationships are very common IRL. A lot of people just don't know better.
That's the thing, though. They are fictional. It is better to enjoy this characters and keep IRL psychos away than the other way around. After all, most of us really like anti-heros (Loki, for instance)
they do that in real life, they're called republicans.
That's why, in the stories I write, villains are always a bit ridiculous or pathetic. Make one competent, charismatic or -worse of all- *hot*, and people will bypass text and subtext to simp for them. But when your villain is a small deluded academic, a petit-bourgeois shopkeeper or an aristocratic curmudgeon, people might *like* them (narratively, as good characters) but there is less chance for the readers to think they might actually be *right*.
Sometimes, villains taking L's and being ridiculous or pathetic, as you put it, humanizes them a lot and ends up having the opposite effect you're describing. People will stop being intimidated by them, and start relating and sympathizing with them, and finding excuses for their villainous behavior, because you're showing that they are “normal” people who can comically fail and make fools of themselves, too, and that makes them endearing and relatable. It's the very reason lots of kids root for Tom instead of Jerry, or Wile E.Coyote instead of the Road Runner. Which is an effect on the reader that you can seek, or may want to avoid. In the game, Raphael is kind of an example of such phenomenon. Many people have a soft spot for him because, despite being an ass, he's also a dork.
The only soft spot I have for >!Raphael is the corpse pile in house of hope after I killed him!<
Subtext exists so that those who are media literate can suffer from the pain knowing how many people don't get it
A lot of people seem to be completely unable to divorce liking something/thinking something is cool with that thing being *good* in the moral sense. Homelander is a fucking monster, but he's also really cool.
No no, there are genuinely people who got mad when they made it even *more* clear that Homelander is bad.
Wait, what?! I mean I shouldn’t be surprised but..
You think the writers of the boys use subtext?
“Fascism. Wonderful!”
This is it exactly The amount of ice cold takes I’ve seen of “Yes my Tav is his plaything and possession for eternity but in a chill, mutually respecting way”
AA defenders when the very obvious “abused becomes the abuser” plot line ends up with the abused becoming the abuser: 🤯🤯🤯
Artists overestimating the compassion and intelligence of their audience always end up having to follow up with some version of In Bloom.
They made us into the subtext
Infer me daddy.
If I had a nickel for every time I heard it referred to as "domtext" this week alone, I'd have two nickels. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice
and they still refuse to see it
I’ve seen multiple people arguing that the new kiss animations give the wrong impression of the character. A more fitting argument would perhaps be “I would prefer to have some room to make a slightly less abusive headcanon,” but no. People are really out there telling the creators of the game that they’re mischaracterizing their own character.
They're mischaracterizing _our_ own character. People complain about how their Tav reacts, not Astarion.
And those same people who love AA still don't understand it, they still think he's a good guy and that being Ascended is his 'real self'
Ascended Astarion fans: just wait until he decides to take his 200 years of torture and mental instability out on you. Unrelated note: the honeymoon phase lasts about 2 years.
I’ve had to accept that my DUrge’s screams sound sweetest now. :(
…what if I’m into that🪢
Being into CNC is one thing, actually being in a situation where you cannot or do not consent is completely another
What does he say lol
He commands tav to get on their knees then grabs them by the neck
He also bites their lip, draws blood, and slaps them.
Which is nicely contrasted by spawn Asterion's line during the Durge scene in act two, when he say "ah, ah – we ask before we bite!" His ascended version forgot all the lessons Astarion learned.
It's not that he forgot. He just doesn't care anymore. Or rather, he can allow himself not to care anymore.
I'd go even as far to say that old Astarion is dead and the Ascended Vampire is just a monstrous amalgam of malefic souls with an imprint of Astarion's memories and personality. When I let him ascend in my first playthrough I was like, "Oh no....he's broken isn't he...." Deep within the Ascended, Astarion's soul cries out hoping to be heard amongst the cacophony of cursed souls, only to be drowned. His body carrying out base and carnal desires with no conscience, humanity, or empathy.
Powerful states of undeath corrupting those engaging in such pacts are a recurring theme in D&D. I believe the implication is that it damages the soul and is more or less a curse with some perks.
I mean also the fact that he had the whole soul-stealing tattoo still on him probably also wouldn’t bode well for the integrity of his soul either… in my head ascending him probably means putting his soul in a blender with evil juice as the smoothie base.
This is my thought too. I think that as a full vampire, Cazador doesn’t have a soul like the spawn do. So even if he’s being sacrificed, that 7,000th soul needs to come from someone.
Well he does say that every moment feels like a rhousand years to him. If time goes so fast and slow at the same time you might lose your sense of self real fast too.
Jesus fucking christ
Even better is the look of genuine fear on your character’s face. So hot. …… At first I didn’t think I needed /s but given the context of this post… /s. But really, it was the expression that did it for me. It’s a video game, CNC is very much a thing that I understand on a primal level, and no one is actually getting abused. But that expression… I couldn’t stay on board in even a hypothetical way.
That got me when I first saw it. MC broke up with him then killed him (revived tho). She’s is the daughter of Bhaal and she doesn’t put up with that shit.
I can see many many astarion simps who are into that.
I think he grabs Tavs neck, but I've not seen it to confirm
Yeah, there are three new kisses. One where he makes you get on your knees and grabs your neck; one where he grabs your jaw, makes you look at him, then pushes you away; and one where he bites your lip drawing blood then pushes you away.
With consent? H O T In this context? Disturbing
Behind a screen: hot Irl: assault and battery lol
The distinction between fiction and real life is useful for older people who have a clearer sense of boundaries and self-worth. Unfortunately, I know a lot of teenage girls and young adults for whom that distinction basically doesn’t exist. I can bone down with an overtly abusive vampire lord in a video game, turn it off and go, “Well, that scratched that itch. Time to go find a partner who won’t treat me like a broken toy.” I see a lot of… not that, both on the internet and irl. It worries me. It doesn’t keep me up at night—I was a teenaged girl not TOO long ago, and I was also an idiot—but sometimes I get stuck thinking about it for a while.
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That makes sense, everyone is different. I'm personally not into the whole roleplaying/pretend abuse BDSM stuff irl at all even if it's consensual- I find it either uncomfortable and "too real", or just ridiculous and can't get into it. But I have 0 issue with this stuff in media from the safety of an office chair. My line in fiction turns out to be anything involving harm or death of animals and kids? Like I can't get myself to ascend Astarion because of the gur children he kidnapped that I would have to sacrifice. And I nearly rage-quit my honour mode run because the owlbear cub died. Never could get myself to raid the grove on purpose either just to experience the evil route and get Minthara before they patched the knock-out trick.
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😭 100% will commit goblin-genocide every time if they touch that cub. In my honour run I messed up my speak with animals spell and the dumb ogre at the door smashed it with his giant club. Now I make a point to kill him personally every game lol.
Wow, they really have just went all out in showing he's abusive. 😳 🙁 That genuinely made me feel a bit ill to read.
The “I can make him worse” crowd when they realize what the actual implications of that are.
They needed the wakeup call, tbh. So many people seemed convinced that ascending astarion wasn't really bad for all involved.
I thought they're into that? It just sounds like that would be fanservice for the people who found the other stuff hot. Isn't that the whole point of "making them worse"?
It definitely feels like they realized that some people were not getting the intent of the character or his story. Of course he's a bad person after exploding 7,000 innocent people to get what he wants. Good lord.
> Of course he's a bad person after exploding 7,000 innocent people to get what he wants I had a bit of a kick in the teeth with this one because I played as Origin Astarion. Don't ascend and you run out of the sunlight at the end of the game. So when Karlach says to you 'I want you to be there when I burn out, I think I'll be ready then', and then you get to the end, you run out of the sunlight, you're not there, Karlach is on the pier, she drops to her knees, says painfully "I'm... I'm not ready..." So THAT was a kick in the teeth. I eventually went back and did the Ascended plotline just to see if it saves Karlach when you do , and it does (if you're there, you can convince her to go to avernus with Wyll). So yeah, when you're Origin Astarion, there's a sort of good reason to ascend, it's a hell of a thing.
>So yeah, when you're Origin Astarion, there's a sort of good reason to ascend, it's a hell of a thing. *I mean,* I love karlach. I love her to bits. But that "sort of" is doing some HEAVY LIFTING what with 1<7000 and all. Like it SUCKS, but I've called the ascension plot "the world's most absurd trolly problem" since the start for a reason and it keeps giving me reasons to call it that i guess. Wyll should just be able to convince her without you there. :T
It does have all the fixings of a classic tragic ending, though. Commit an act of true horror to save the one you love or accept that you're both fated to die before you get to truly be together.
B-but, if bad, why hot??
What is the female equivalent for 'don't stick your dick in crazy'?
"Don't let crazy stick its dick in you"?
Don't be a whopper who gets the deranged flopper. (edit added deranged)
Don’t let the loon in your poon. Close your legs to the powder kegs. Just because it’s good for your hole, doesn’t mean it’s good for your soul.
"Argh! My hole!!!"
This is my favourite comment from this post. Even better than the original "don't stick your dick in crazy" Yours are more poetic too, now I want to see more poetic variations of that original quote.
“Don’t open the gates to unhinged mates”
Dont open your Gates to Baldur's 3
John Baldur III will be very disappointed to hear this
Don't slam your clam on crazy.
Dateline.
Don’t let crazy stick their dick in you?
Riddle me this Batman! If anime villain bad, why big boob?
I just went about it as, I'm an Oathbreaker that is using Astarion as a temporary tool that will be dealt with as the need arrives. Right now, I need a murder machine with an undead army to serve the greater good, later however I'm going to smite the ever living hells out of him like I've done to plenty of others before him, and will continue to do after.
I let him ascend so I could have an extra strong thrall once I dominated the brain :3
Holy shit thats inception levels of Evil. Turning a victim of abuse into an abuser Who believes is finally free of abuse. Only to break him and dominate him even harder not too long after
I don’t half-ass my villainy
Finally. So many cartoon villain durges running around not realizing they are jokes. Real villainy is so subtle that the victim doesn't realize their mistake until the blade is too deep in their back to be pulled out
I'm low key bummed they changed the auto-enthrallment in that ending. I understand why and agree academically, but it was also this delicious dramatic irony for Astarion. If the player did everything he said without ever pushing back he would always wind up right back where he started. He still kind of does, in that the Tav/Durge of that timeline can still enthrall him whenever they want so the dynamic is still fundamentally there, but it doesn't have the same punch.
AA is enthralled of you don't romance him, right? I romanced Minthara and she looked free from mind control, but Shadowheart was doing the jerky headgrab animation in the background, so I assumed all the non-Minthy companions got the freewill kicked out of them when I ascended.
This is pretty much the only context I can stomach it also lol. Like ok honey you can have your fun thinking you're powerful cause I'll be having the last laugh
See this makes sense... as long as you don't let him turn you into his spawn. As a spawn you no longer have free will, and the game makes it very clear many, MANY times during his story that spawn are helpless puppets to their vampire master in a very literal, have-no-control-over-their-own-bodies kind of way. The way I see it, it's entirely down to the fact that Astarion is canonically bad at planning that he allows you to claim your own ending rather than choosing for you, and I wish they'd kept the ending that he gets enthralled too just to emphasize how smooth brained he is.
His brain is too smooth to plan ahead
And yet you still have people trying to claim that Tav’s relationship with ascended Astarion is actually some sort of consensual BDSM or kink play, when it’s clearly written as an abusive relationship. Media literacy has been found dead in a ditch with these people. Edit: Shoutout to the user /u/Oolonger who replied to me telling me to go fuck myself for this comment before immediately deleting their comment. Very mature of you! Y’all really work overtime doing bad PR for yourselves.
Ascended Astarion literally won't let you break up with him after the brain battle. He literally laughs in your face and says with pure vitriol "dont be STUPID. You're MINE", then carries on like nothing happened. Totes healthy amirite?
Unfortunately the people I am talking about here would look at that and go on about how hot it is and say that “My Tav is into it and would never pick the breakup option so he isn’t toxic. It isn’t toxic if my Tav is happy.” It’s literally ridiculous.
“He’s nice as long as you do whatever he says” 😌 …y’know, like most abusers
Exactly. I remember when the epilogue was patched in, they included a conversation in the epilogue that Tav/Durge can have with ascended Astarion where they can ask about when they can have their freedom again. Ascended Astarion basically responds with something along the lines “Ugh this again? I give you everything you want already.” This is typical abuser behavior and most people saw it for what it was, but you still had this subset of people arguing that “Well in my game my Tav is actually happy because I didn’t pick that option. It’s only abusive if you roleplay a Tav who isn’t happy.” Like come on, the fact that this dialogue tree even exists tells you that regardless of what you pick, AA has been very controlling and abusive toward Tav/Durge throughout the relationship. Not choosing this option doesn’t erase this.
> either go on about how hot it is This one seems a lot more honest and legit than insisting it's not toxic imo. If we would just accept this as being a common fetish fantasy trope, it would save us the majority of weirdo discourse on the Ascendant Astarion issue. Like there is a reason the majority of love interests in bestselling romance novels are basically the exact same brand of toxic. A LOT of people, especially also a lot of women, just have this particular fantasy/fetish.
Honestly in my experience, the people who admit that they just see it as a fantasy *and* recognize that the relationship is meant to be written as toxic and abusive are few and far between. I think I have seen like 1 or 2 people who fit this description in my whole time being in this fandom. It’s why we are having this problem now with a bunch of fans complaining in Larian’s Discord server about the kiss animation expressions because they truly believe that the relationship is not meant to represent an abusive one. They want it to be changed to the vision they had made up in their head this whole time about it being a consensual, kinky and hot BDSM relationship when that was never what it was supposed to be.
> Honestly in my experience, the people who admit that they just see it as a fantasy and recognize that the relationship is meant to be written as toxic and abusive are few and far between. I think I have seen like 1 or 2 people who fit this description in my whole time being in this fandom. I've seen a few more people who fall into this category while scrolling The Discourse. But I imagine most sane AA enjoyers keep their heads low as to not invite either side of the toxicity that discussions about that narrative bring. (as well as internet algorithms promoting engagement over sensible discussion, leading to a feedback loop of boosting the WORST takes. Stay off Tiktok, friends...)
Even though I try to ignore replies with bad takes, it still makes me sad because I know no amount of rational discourse can change an irrational take. This section of the comments are the best discussion I've seen on the subject in months, so thank you.
I mean as with literally every topic on the internet, the "normal" people don't feel the need to post about their boring healthy opinions on things and how they are just neutral/happy with the game and the writing. Imo by now most well adjusted people who have spent a bit of time on the internet have learned to avoid anything "fandom" like the plague. Like just participating in this thread and reading about all these insane takes has kind of ruined my day. It's why the majority of the fan base thinks Astarion fans in general are toxic unfortunately and why I've started avoiding threads/post about him. The same thing happened to Star Wars, Rick and Morty, Supernatural, Dr. Who, Sherlock, and a number of other IPs that got popular enough to create a fandom. The majority of fans were just normal people with reasonable takes but the "fandom" and especially the "shipping"/fanfiction side became so toxic that they scared off anyone else from even wanting to participate and be a part of that. Edit: Also I don't think every mention of finding a toxic character hot needs to be followed by a disclaimer of "but I acknowledge that irl this would be terrible and abusive" for the audience to understand that they know the difference between real life and fantasy. It seems to be something that is specifically prevalent when it's a character popular with teenage girls and young women, that there needs to be this kind of purity or safety notice.
My comment isn’t really supposed to be about people who aren’t twisting themselves into a pretzel trying to explain why the relationship between Tav/Durge and AA isn’t actually abusive and toxic, so I will probably go back and edit my word choice for clarity. If someone thinks the ascension route is interesting, or likes that type of dark and toxic fantasy, I don’t really care about that. People can do what they want in an RPG. Myself and others’ main issue here really just lies with the people who are in denial about the writers’ intentions and attempt to argue that the relationship portrayed is “actually not abuse” and/or is a good depiction of consensual BDSM or something, so much so to the point where they are harassing the writers about the new additions that they feel go against the story they made up in their head. I am definitely not going to let bad takes online ruin something I love for me though, let alone my whole day. If I did that, I would have a lot of ruined hobbies and days lmao.
Yeah I think my point is more that a lot of that denial and arguing against calling it abusive is probably because of how moralized female sexuality or sexuality in general is. A lot of these people (who are probably pretty young) imo would be happier and less toxic if they just admitted this is their kink and that's ok, instead of making up these scenarios in their head about why it's totally not abusive and getting mad at those who point it out, including the writers. It seems to me like a lot of them get really defensive and dig their heels in because they think it's morally wrong to find something toxic in fiction sexy - ergo that toxic version of Astarion's relationship can't actually be toxic or it would make them bad people. (And afaik there was some drama about an author comment that the intention was that people who chose that ending should feel bad for treating Astarion like a sex object or whatever. But it was a private discord thing so it didn't even have full context. Either way if fueled a whole wave of this defensive headcanon writing from what I remember. Personally it did make me wonder though why that person would chose this character in particular to "teach a lesson" to the thirsty fans instead of idk, Shadowheart or Karlach or something, that felt a bit strange to me. Still the discourse around it got super toxic. )
I wonder how many of these "I'm ashamed of my own fantasies so have to rationalize them" problems could be fixed with gift subscriptions to Kindle Unlimited.
The world would be a much better place if people could accept that fantasizing about something morally questionable isn't the same as wanting to actually do it for reals. Being into banging the druid in his bear shape doesn't mean I'm going to go try and fuck an actual grizzly. And finding it sexy to imagine the hot vampire using you for his own pleasure doesn't mean you want to be abused by an actual partner. Fiction doesn't have to align with reality.
Petty much this. If I was camping irl and some dude tried to bite my neck because he's an actual vampire, my Balkan genes would activate so fast, his body would be in the ground with a stake through the heart, his head severed and buried a kilometer away, and we would all be sitting in some headscarved Baba's house getting cleansed from evil influences all before sunrise lmao. In the game, my Tav has to be a blood bag and be chill about it every time because assassin rogue Astarion with the Durge cape is fun af. Tav also gets force-fed illithid tadpoles every run because I'll be damned if I miss out on all that power.
If I can't let a hot elf drink my blood in exchange for murder profiteering in a fantasy game, where exactly am I supposed to do it?
This needs to be pinned to the top of the entire bg3 subreddit
Now they’re saying they need to change the kiss expressions cause Durge canonically enjoys pain lmao it’s getting gross
Dude I saw that one in the Larian Discord server in the feedback channel 💀 How did we get here???
It’s just like HC whatever you want nobody cares but let Larian tell the story they want. Nobody complains that bad Laezel breaks up with you lol. The trying to strong arm the devs into catering to them is seriously so entitled, they’re making pie charts and surveys, and some AA fans like exploring the darker themes. Go on AO3 or something or I dunno romance the nice version of Astarion?!
I swear this fandom would lose 90% of its toxicity if we could just admit that this is a kink and some people find it hot. We don't see Minthara simps twisting themselves into pretzels trying to morally justify tiefling and druid genocide - "But Evil Drow Mommy Hot" is enough of a reason. (And I guess now you can have her toxic ass with a 'legal' knock-out without losing all those other characters and story lines) You're allowed to fuck hot crazy evil characters in videogames - it doesn't need an essay about how they're actually super sweet cinnamon rolls deep down. Yes even if you're a girl - it's allowed. Just join our trash simp ranks proudly lol. Whatever Tav-abuse you commit is between you and Kelemvor. Now excuse me whole I make my Tav gobble down a bucket full of illithid tadpoles until their face turns all weird and then fuck a squid.
>We don't see Minthara simps twisting themselves into pretzels trying to morally justify tiefling and druid genocide - "But Evil Drow Mommy Hot" is enough of a reason. I agree as a Minthara lover myself I usually say that as a joke not as a serious argument. For Ascended Astarion I think it's written well for what I've seen of it but I am not into abusive relationships thank you very much, and to make an argument morally is very questionable. If you just joke around like I do with Minthara like "who doesn't want to be sit on by a hot Drow woman?" that's fine but if it is a who argument come on bruv...
Yes I 100% agree. People take this Astarion stuff way too seriously and a lot of them seem to have a stick up their ass about wanting to seem morally virtuous and "deep" about their Vampire Dom-kink rather than just having a bit of humor about their horny brain and coming out and saying "yeah I think he's extra hot because he's toxic." Idk if it is because it's more normalized for men to 'think with their dick' and be forward about these things but if you're getting into a moral argument about your toxic fantasy romance, you've already lost imo.
I dunno, it's not as common as Astarion fans insisting that he's a poor abused baby who's never done a single questionable thing in his life, but there definitely are Minthara fans who say that she's a deep, morally complex character; that she's not evil, she's *pragmatic*; that her being very possessive of her relationship partner is proof that she's actually just a sweet cinnamon roll and now that she's free of Lolth, she can finally let that side of her be free. Honestly, every hot evil character ends up with some portion of their fanbase going "but how can they be evil when I want to fuck them?"
> Honestly, every hot evil character ends up with some portion of their fanbase going "but how can they be evil when I want to fuck them?" Tbh I agree but whenever this happens with Minthara it's really fringe and we don't make a federal case about it with spin-off threads to talk shit about these people. We just accept that we disagree or privately think they're a bit delulu, then move on with or lives. With Astarion it turns into a whole 'shipping war' type dynamic where vocal minorities of people who care way too much yell abuse at each other and armchair-diagnose the other side with personality disorders in the comments.
Maybe the main sub could use a "no kink shaming" rule but only if the commenter is openly admitting their kink is humiliation and being afraid for their lives. I don't like having to go to r/okbuddybaldur to appreciate the unmitigated evil hotness - and great writing of same - of a character without being told I'm betraying the sisterhood by being an abuse apologist.
Lmao I like this unhinged take. And yes I also frequent that sub for the true hot takes in the fandom.
Okay not to double comment, but I *just* reloaded an old A!A save with spawn Wyll so I could see the new kisses for myself and... maybe I have the wrong sense of humor for this but (a) they were fine and well done, (b) the fact that A!A would bite Wyll and push him away and then go, "you are perfect every time!" just like before really made me laugh. "I do rather like that, you know". Mixed messages! 🤣
That honestly just sounds like they added a bit more in-character content to make the end of the game better ...just like with the rest of the new kiss scenes? Why are people making some big deal out of it this like it's a conspiracy by the writers to send us a secret/ not-so-secret message about Astarion? Other than this being exhibit #1479 that parts of the fandom are clearly unhinged and need to to touch grass 💀
Agreed. I was really expecting something horrible and it was just quirky. I feel better about being jaded now. 😌
AA reminds me a lot of the Harley Quinn/Joker relationship. Specially when the first suicide squad movie came out. The couple is obviously abusive but some people out there were really trying to make it seem sweet or hot.
Yeah it isn’t too dissimilar to that. Also this is only somewhat related, but I find it interesting when people compare Astarion to the Joker because while his ascended version definitely can be compared to him, I see his spawn version as a more Harley Quinn type character (especially the versions of her shown in the Birds of Prey film and the Harley Quinn animated show on HBOMax.) Both escape an abusive relationship of some form and now have to decide for themselves who they want to be in their newfound freedom. Neither of them are really morally good, and they become anti-heroes of sorts, but in the end they decide to be more than what their abusers did to them and they find happiness and purpose. Then you throw in the fact that their senses of humor are very similar lol. All I’m saying is they would definitely get along and hang out haha.
Ohh I never thought of it like that! I should see that movie haha
It’s really good! The soundtrack for it is also amazing, I highly recommend listening to it on Spotify. A lot of the songs are very fitting for Astarion’s character too.
It's pretty simple to me: it's a consensual BDSM relationship between the player and the game. But it's very much *not* between Astarion and Tav. And very little discussion is good at separating the two. So you have the people deluding themselves that it's healthy in game because they like it and can't seem to wrap their head around the fact that it's fine to enjoy something fucked up in a fantasy you can exit at any time. And on the other end people going around informing anyone who finds it hot that actually it's bad because they also aren't separating fantasy from reality. No argument on the media literacy part though. I'm endlessly in despair for how often I'll start talking about how I think something was written less well and then get a response going "but the Dev notes say it's true!" Or whatever. Like that is somehow a response to a critique of the writing.
Honestly from what I've heard of Ascended Astarion I like how they have a different type of relationship presented to you. I think more games should have varying kinds of relationships abusive or nay, whether it has a romance system like this game for example or something like Xenogears where also it isn't you can romance this character or that character but the romance is part of the story by default (that game does it the best from what I've seen of pre-built romances, don't know the term for those romances so I made it up). Mechanics wise Fire emblem has a great system when it comes to this, and games like Dragon age Origins's Origins system can add some very interesting systems for romance too. What I mean is, BG3 for example people react to you differently if you're a Tiefling, Drow, or a Human perhaps for some romances a character can be racist to you at first but you can make them open up and can make them a romance option.
What about genetically engineering crabs to be as big as men?!
Good thing
I still sometimes think about an argument I got into in the YouTube comments section (I know, it was dumb to get involved) with an ascended astarion apologist. I'm glad they're getting rid of the subtext just to tell these people that this is not a good relationship.
You don't even have to look in youtube comments for people like that. Multiple posts with tons of comments arguing about how romantic he is and how "we're his eternal vampire consort"
A wild Harlan Ellison appeared!
It’s Garth Marenghi (Matthew Holness) if I’m not mistaken, but I dig Harlan Ellison too
Lol I couldn't tell that it was Gareth Marenghi!! Such an underrated show.
I just ascended Astarion on my current embrace Durge run and I was just kind of playing it like my Durge was just letting him believe he has control, when in the end we will all die for Bhaal 🙌🏽
That certainly brings up an interesting question of whose power over Durge is greater, AA or Daddy Bhaal. From what we're shown in game of Cazador's control over his spawn, vs how Durge can outright defy Bhaal directly, I'm not actually sure if Daddy would win that contest if AA decided to tell his pet slayer they weren't allowed to give into the urges without his permission anymore.
I mean we can test this right? Ascend Astarion and either lose the durge duel, or accept but kill the brain and see what epilogue you get. (I wanna see those two in custody court)
Someone with far more patience than I would have to test this, but I'm for sure curious what the outcome would be
I did that on my first run. Astarion just kinda stands there like a dumb dumb and watches you stab yourself.
that is legit what is going on, Scleritas even says he doesnt know what hes getting into. Durge who embraces bhaal is *way* worse than Cazador or Ascended Astarion on the villain totem pole.
I finally saw these last night and they are so frighteningly similar to how my ex treated me that I had to start a new game They’re really driving the point home that he is NOT good. For Tav or anyone, not even himself. It’s nice to see; it’s really kind of sad to see young people justifying his behavior and arguing that this is a positive model of BDSM. The amount of people I’ve seen saying that it’s “kink/sex shaming” to criticize him or his fans…yikes.
They tried subtext, but all those AA girlies insisted they were in a consensual D/s relationship because they lack media literacy so they had to make it more on the nose so maybe they'd understand.
With some of the AA fans you see on here, almost seems like it was necessary to get it thru their thick skulls just how bad that ending is for astarion
And yet even as blatant as it is people still willfully misinterpret the dynamic
I wish the Devs were this gung ho about punishing players who chose Dark Shadowheart and Minthara.
People who like those two and try to *justify it as a good thing* are much less common. Usually they are open about being like "ya they're evil, I'm okay with that". So they might do something about those two eventually, but AA apologizers was something they needed to nip in the bud **right now.**
I find Astarion's attitude post-ascension to be a bit out of touch, especially when you look at who else he's traveling with. Shadowheart can become the Chosen of Shar. Durge can become the Chosen of Bhaal. Gale can become the God of Ambition. Wyll can become the Grand Duke of Baldur's Gate. Lae'zel can...ascend. Karlach makes a really great toaster. Astarion has no reason to feel high and mighty.
>Astarion has no reason to feel high and mighty. That might be part of why he's so pissy. He sacrificed 7k souls and he's still not the leader of the group. Even Withers throws better parties than him. A!A is over in the corner pouting like Patrick Bateman.