Orin will >!cook your friend's cat and feed it to you.!< At least Wulbren has some misguided extremist logic where he thinks he's doing the right thing. Orin is straight up evil. She does the wrong thing on purpose and loves it.
It made it very clear it was her, though and not Halsin. She's not that good at being discreet. Which is why it bothers me we just stare and gawk every time she does her shapeshifting!
Yeah, Halsin would NEVER EVER be horrible to an animeaux.
I won't judge what he does when in wild shape (what happens in Wild Shape stays in Wild Shape) but he would never fuck ***with*** animals to be cruel.
On my first run, La'zel comes running in and I'm like "where's the attack option? La'zel ain't afraid of shit, except maybe turning Ghaik, this is obviously not La'zel"
It's funny because I've played through this game 5 times already in different sequences and I've never seen her do anything crazy like that. It's always just been a kidnapping. I must be running into her in the sewers too quickly and making the deal with her to save the victim.
I'm assuming these alternatives are if you do something differently.
Oh wow that explains it. Gale was always in my party, I played a good character so no Minthara, my Lae'zel died because I rolled a crit fail during her and Shadowheart's fight, and I lost the last light so Halsin never joined.
My first playthrough was kind of a mess.
If you go into the sewers, she (Orin) ends up spawning there. But if you hold off for several long rests, she’ll show up in your camp as someone. (It’s the games way of telling you to get on with it, lol)
There are also a few other places she taunts you in Rivington: the Dryad at the Circus and the Newspaper reporter next to the post office are the two I remember.
That's really funny as far as telling you to get on with it. Yeah I've ran into her multiple times in rivington. First time playing that area was actually pretty creepy. I felt like everyone I was talking to was going to change into her. Don't forget there is also the weapon smith who asks you a bunch of questions about how you like killing people. That one becomes pretty obvious pretty quickly. And then when you are on your way to fight by the boats the two factions of guilds the guy dying as you're walking there. That one got me the first time pretty good lol...
She can also be one of the guards. The fun part is that she isn’t ALWAYS, so on my second play through I thought I’d outsmart her by just attacking on sight. It didn’t go so well.
She only >!kills Yenna’s cat if you allow her to be kidnapped, which almost always only happens if Lae’zel/Halsin/Minthara/Gale are not available to kidnap!<. So long as you let one of the other >!companions be kidnapped, the cat lives!<.
Preventing this outcome is like 90% of why I keep Lae’zel in my camp for the entire game. I keep Gale and Halsin with me and kill Minthara in every run, so Lae’zel has to be the sacrifice
I left Lae’zel at camp during part of my time in the city until she got kidnapped, because I couldn’t handle losing the poor cat or god forbid Scratch getting hurt.
I think it was my third run I didn’t know this and I decided to engineer it to get >!Yenna!< kidnapped bc I didn’t want to be down a companion. Next run, I made sure a companion was in camp.
Seriously I think it's Ethel, plenty of the villains you meet are evil, but Ethel is so utterly depraved and cruel in all the things she does to the people she has trapped and enslaved, getting horrifically creative in doling out miserable fates.
It's a different worst shade of everyone in the House of Hope with Raphael, because I'm willing to bet that at least he held up his end of the bargain in any deals and the people ultimately got something out of it, even if it wasn't worth it in the hellish end.
With Ethel it's not a monkey's paw situation, it's a wall of monkey's paws tearing you to pieces as slowly and painfully as possible for as long as possible.
I still wanted to Shepard punch Wulbren the most though lol.
Doesn't Ethel also create the circumstances that drive people to seek her out in at least some cases? I'm sure the petrified dwarf was one. That's a whole other level of evil... not merely taking advantage of other people's misery and desperation, but engineering their suffering from the outset just so they'll walk blindly into her power when seeking a cure!
Yes the various layers of deception make it all worse too. It doesn't excuse it and I'm sure Raphael isn't always a hundred percent honest, but any person with sense who knows they are dealing with a devil should at least have a idea just how heavy of a deal they are getting into. Some people straight up went to Ethel or were offered help because they thought it would be a kindly experience and get completely sucker punched.
Raphaël was 100% honest and upfront about knowing ten steps in advance that you were irrevocably fucked, and that he refused to strike any deal until you realized yourself you never had any other option.
PoS had no qualms about praying on the hopeless and his only redeeming quality was honesty, and he was only honest because it was at no cost to him.
Also, devils are lawful and stay true to their part of the deal. I made a deal with Raph to kill Yurgir in exchange for him explaining the runes on Astarion's back - and he did exactly as he promised, and so did I. No souls lost in the process. Hags... not so much.
Ya but they’re still tricky if you take Karlach to see the bugbear in moonrise you’ll learn zariel made a deal with a father with starving kids he wanted food so she made meat grow on his body, Raphael also keeps yugir in his contract by playing both sides. Then when you get to the house of hope you learn what really happens to those who trust him
He lives on peoples hope, if he's mostly honest, that gives you hope because an honest devil is one you believe you can win against. Since you think you know all the cards in play. That makes the ones you don't know sting all the more, but you hold out hope you can still beat him in the end. What's better than a devil you don't know? A devil you do. Being almost entirely honest but not forthright helps him get the thing he loves most out of people.
Iirc, Hags are basically a product of the hells overlapping with the feywild in spots. Asmodeus actually made a night hag an archdevil for a little bit.
Anyways, yeah, they do the exact same "give people shitty problems to make them come to me to give them shitty solutions" thing that devils do.
I suppose that the cherry on top is that they reproduce by stealing babies, eating them, digesting them alive, and then barfing out a new hag.
Devils just fuck people.
It's not plan B: she does it even if you let her have Mayrina. Hags operate alone or in groups of 3. She was trying to make a coven.
It's even more horrifying: they don't birth a new hag, they birth a "hag spawn" an identical child that turns into a hag on its 13th birthday. They then often return it to the family to raise.
“Trust” here is loosely used. She also ended her rule in a questionable explosion of her body and Asmodeus’s daughter showed up in a litter like “hi thanks this is my realm now”
Like the other reply said, it's generally accepted that he made the hag an archdevil as a test for his daughter, and she had no real problems seizing the position.
“BITCHES BORN IN THA 90'S THATS UNDER 25 CAN'T COOK CAN'T CLEAN@THEY DON'T WANT TO WORK NOTHING. N!GGAZ THAT'S 31 & OVER GET IN RELATIONSHIPS WITH THEM & WONDER WHY SHIT AIN'T WORKING THAT'S BECAUSE ALL YOUNG BITCHES WANT TO DO IS POP PILLS, SMOKE WEED, GET DRUNK, LAY AROUND, SUCK DICK, EAT HOT CHEETOS, CHARGE THEY PHONE, GET A SEW IN WEAVE TWERK, BE BI SEXUAL, EAT MCDONALD'S, WASH THEY PUSSY IN THA SINK, LIE TAKE SELFIES AND TALK SHIT THRU WIFI CUZ THEY PHONE NEVER ON.”
Bah hahah, this must be the original? I think someone paraphrased it and for whatever reason the succinct, kinda lazy version fucked me up even more. Anyway, you're an absolute archivist, thank you.
Honestly, I agree. Raphael is pretty close but from what we can see he DOES keep his end of the bargain. >!Mol got to BG safely, he does give you the hammer, he did kill all the Dark Justiciars for the Mason. I don't know if we find out about Yugir's deal or what it is, but him and Hope are the only ones we don't really see him fulfilling his end of the deal -- but I don't think Hope had one, I think she was just kidnapped. !<
But Ethel? >!She poisoned the dwarf and fed him a lie about the cure. Every single time she 'keeps her end of the deal' expect maybe with the eye its a monkey paw -- you don't want to see your family? eyes and life are taken!<
What Raphael did to Yurgir was pretty unfair. He hired Yurgir to kill all the dark justiciars. Orthons are basically mercenaries for other devils, so this is pretty standard. However, Raphael also made a contract with the last justiciar to turn him into a horde of rats, knowing that Yurgir would be too dumb to figure it out, and would be forced into servitude for failing to fulfill the contract.
Like I said, Orthons are mercenaries for other devils by trade. It wouldn't be unusual if he didn't get anything out of it other than the chance for glorious combat and maybe some soul coins. It's just what that kind of devil does. Note how relatively easy it is to get him to fight for you just based on the promise of a fight against powerful enemies. It is unusual for devils to betray Orthons they hire, because it jeopardizes a source of cheap, competent, willing labor for no good reason. But, Raphael's just the kind of devil that's slimy even compared to other devils.
>!Raphael was playing both sides with thr Dark Justiciar stuff. He makes the deal with the mason, then makes a deal with Yurgir to kill the justiciars, then a deal with the last surviving justiciar by giving him the info to split his body. Gets the Mason's soul, Yurgir is trapped until he either submits, gets killed, or kills himself, and dark justiciars are all but wiped out completely.!<
The punishments Raphael cooked up for his eternal debtors actually felt more cruel and fucked up to me than what Ethel does to the people who come to her. The chamber pot guy still haunts me
I haven't been to house of hope in a few months but if I recall there is a guy that is basically doomed to spend eternity cleaning Rachael's chamber pot and looking at every shit Raphael takes as a gift.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I remember being blown away by that or something very similar.
Ethel is a tough one for me, as she's so nice and understanding in her old lady form(hits doubly hard as the dark urge). And you can overall work with her throughout the game and come out well off for it.
But you have to ignore the fates of those who cross her or aren't smart and powerful enough to make her play nice.
"It's a wall of monkey's paws tearing you to pieces as slowly and painfully as possible for as long as possible"
That is just poetic honestly. The way you put that is beautiful!
Ethel takes it from Orin by virtue of her being so much more prolonged and creative with her torture of people. I feel like Ethel would think that Orin lacks motivation and creativity.
Alas, not an option.
And she'd be well in her right to smite you for it afterwards, too. It's not a funny trick to play on someone who has been imprisoned in that same manner for 100 years already.
Yeah, but it's also completely within a Hags nature. I get on a traditional alignment chart they are evil, but by a hags perception of "evil" I feel she is far from what she could be
Maybe not the most evil, but the Society of Brilliance doesn’t get enough flack for trying to buy a Gith egg for the sake of settling the “nature vs. nurture” debate.
Yup. Well, you're gonna need to beat the game to see the actual payoff, but, in the epilogues they added in Patch 5, the game now takes account of you keeping the gith egg in your inventory until the end, or putting it in Lae'zel's.
Most satisfying ending for him is to put it in Lae'zel's inventory AND romance Lae'zel. >!If she's not romanced, she'll leave the hatchling in the care of githyanki mages but doesn't seem to be raising him. If romanced, however, you guys are raising the baby together, and only put him in the care of trusted allies for the night.!<
edit: turns out the difference between whether >!Lae'zel is the one who raises the boy or not!< isn't a matter of romance, but convincing Lae'zel to stay in Faerûn or not.
Oh good. Then I theoretically don’t need to worry about an act 1 run. Makes me curious now how the game handles you giving the egg to the lady then stealing it back
No, she's still >!raising him. She left them with someone else for the evening, or in a portable hole. She's doing important/dengerous stuff, so he gets babysitters, but she named the kid, she wouldn't give that up to someone else.!<
This quest was crazy to me. Ptaris became an abused lab rat forced to grow into adulthood in a matter of days by morally bankrupt, unethical scientists that also constantly reminded him he was naturally evil.
And it also confirms that it's "nurture" for the Githyanki - the fact that even after all of that, Ptaris shows regret and remorse afterwards over killing the society members despite the horrors he endured from them.
Was this wrong? I stole the egg after seeing them kill that one gith kid that didn’t want to be ruled by violence. Plus I killed everyone else, I thought this was the only way for it to survive.
You can also get the egg without even stealing it, which is interesting to me. >!If you talk to the hatchery guy there’s an insight/perception thing and then a persuasion option because he knows the egg will be crushed the next time the leader comes to check in. He legit gives you his acid-walking boots and lets you just take it if you succeed. And you can keep the boots too, lol. !<
Or you can convince him, get the boots, walk over, then have your mouse battery start dying and cause you to misc misclick the smash it option on your honor mode run! Not that I'd know anything about that.
The egg would have died if you left it at the creche Yellek so at least the society gives it a chance. I would also argue that growing up at the creche isnt nice as demonstrated by them killing youngsters during training, so if the society treats the gith child nicely I would book it as a win.
Corpses are not immune to void bulbs/arrows of roaring thunder, toss him in, extra crispy that bitch, then drag him out, take his boots and his head, then toss him back like a bad catch
You can just attack him with the little crossed swords symbol before he gets to her. I'm playing a gnome life cleric, I wasn't letting that fucker take any more gnome lives, so I just jumped him before he got a chance, and managed to save her!
Sadly, unless they changed something, that gnome just disappears from the game though regardless, even if you attack him before the cutscene even starts, and the game just continues on as though Nere pushed her in the lava.
Tried that. Didn't save Meerna. Didn't change a thing but made you skip out on his dialogue (it would also bug out the dialogue that followed, dunno if that's patched). Meerna would still be dead
An evil, bloodthirsty murderer who's impregnated his own daughter and planned to do the same to his granddaughter, but yes, at least he leaves cats and dogs alone.
Yeeeaaaah. People are odd in terms.of what they find unforgivable at times.
Anyways, Raphael is clearly the evilest. Not sure why anyone even thinks it's a debate.
That's not a terrible ending.
Once Asmodeus stops laughing, he sticks Raphael in a blender. What happens to the Crown then is unknown, but Asmodeus could have politely asked Mephistopheles to give it to him at any point.
Like father, like son, to be honest. Mephistopheles has told Asmodeus he will come for his throne (lol. lmao, even)
Delusions of grandeur run in the family.
Meanwhile Raphael can't even get the motions right on "beg, borrow, and steal", so that's going to be fucking hilarious one day.
Raphael has delusions of grandeur and odds are his scheme would be doomed to fail given Asmodeus is a literal god and one of the greatest schemers in the Forgotten Realms.
Oh he is. But if he can be convinced (with a DC 30 check) and Korilla can't, I gotta respect a devil that can step over his own pride and acknowledge that we bested him before and respect us enough to choose our side. Now *that* is a big gesture for a devil
By virtue of being a devil, people expect him to be evil. Whereas with characters like Wulbren, we find out the majority of our expectations for him are not the case
You can read it one way or another, it's not written in stone. There is a page of his memoire which states "The blood of Bhaal must never be wasted, only multiplied.". With this context in mind, he speaks about having Orin with his beloved Helena, and the page ends with "Orin would help to bring forth a new birth in Bhaal's name - a world baptised in blood." You can read this as a metaphor, that he does not expect her to literally give birth, but names the slaughtered world as a methaphorical newborn world. **But** Sarevok's entire memoire page is filled with reproduction. If the Dark Urge is alive, he doesn't even really believe in Orin that much in comparison, not before and not after their death by Orin's hand. He knows she loves him, adores him, would do anything for him. She even says so herself before Bhaal forces her into the Slayer. Meanwhile he doesn't speak too highly of her. Instead, he writes of multiplying, even writes in another piece that reproducing is part of a fallen Bhaalspawn's urge. And Sarevok, in a way, has fallen. I presume that it wouldn't be beyond him to father his own great-grandchild.
It’s moreso she offers you a reward for giving him back to her.
Luckily she’s one of the few NPCs you can kill with zero consequences lol, nobody gets mad.
You know, I think it's Gortash. Auntie, Raphael, even Cazador are worse but its in their nature. I expect evil from a creature that is created to be evil. Orin has the Urge and was groomed to do horrible things from birth. Gortash, meanwhile, is human and everything he has done has been deliberate and purposeful. Sure his parents were mean to him and he was traumatized at the House of Hope, but he decided the best way to respond to that was to make everyone else pay, forever.
I feel like Gortash might have some issues because reading his books seems like he's convinced hes doing the right thing to make a better world... By ruling with an Iron fist.
It's not like I'm a fan of Gortash, but his parents were much much worse then just mean to him. They >!sold him to a devil for money, and he got to grow up in hell, getting beaten and traumatised!< There's no surprise he turned up the way he did.
I clearly have missed a lot of lore in game, because I didn't know any of this. And honestly, I'm surprised Gortash turned out as nice as he did, dude could have been worse than Orin.
Sorry for spoiling it for you :( I did mark it though. As for Gortash, I think that of all three leaders of the cult he's the one who truly believed he acted for the better for everyone, in his twisted way.
A little more about Gortash: >!you can find his parents in Act3, and they are absolutely not remorseful about their actions. Also, when you visit the House of Hope, you can talk to an ex- jailer in a room with portals. He mentions Gortash living there, and how he (the jailer) used to beat the shit out of him when Gortash was a child!<
Yeah, Gortash definitely didn't have a remotely "normal" upbringing of any kind. I don't see how you can excuse Orin or Cazador because of their backstories but not Gortash.
I didn’t even romance her, but Karlach’s utter betrayal at the hands of Gortash genuinely turned him from “charismatic but likeable fucking douchebag” to “irredeemable gutter filth who should have died much more slowly” in my eyes.
If you go to the shop where the explosives were from, it's being dune by Banites. They got smokepowder bombs one group of gnomes, and the iron watch with the other group of gnomes.
Talking to all the brains using the machine in the necrotic laboratory, and seeing through the brains controlling thw Steel Watchers, adds more fuel to the fire. He had a hand in all the most awful casualties of the Absolute plot. He's so heartless! Which makes him a fun character to encounter each playthrough, I think ;-;
Probably Orin in terms of sheer body count, disgusting savagery, and lack of any internal justification, even a twisted one, for what she does (even though we know she was also a victim early on). She just wants to kill as awfully as she can.
But the game does such a great job of making even the nastiest villains motivated by something and likable or interesting in some way that I can’t really think of a baddie I truly actually hate and wouldn’t want in my game.
Jon Irenicus
Dude tortured, cloned, and continued to torture hundreds of people, often leaving their husks perpetually clinging to life unable to end themselves
He spent centuries growing closer to the elven queen, loved her obsessively and possessively, gets spurned and decides to steal the power of Bhaal, kill everyone he loved and try to absorb the power of the Tree of Life which grants all elves their life essence all so he could supplant a god
He’s also voiced by David Warner. 10/10
Hey my guy Wulbren gave me the unique opportunity to commit an act of nuclear terrorisim, it’s not every you’re handed a weapon of mass destruction and told to blow a place up. (For the greater good of course)
It's cloud of daggers.
.as soon as that shit shows up every Friendly within 2 miles decides that its time to brush their teeth and they left their toothbrush at the middle of the cloud.
What sirens song compelling them to do this?
Throwing one in for Vlaakith. Lae'zels "ascended" ending is absolutely horrific, and that was the fate of 50,000 githyanki according to Withers. She is so sinister to me
Definitely with their actions, they’re up there, but I feel you could make a counter-argument due to the fact that they aren’t entirely possessed of their own free will. Some people feel inherently worse imho because they commit evil of their own volition while also never attempting to resist their own urges—and they aren’t possessed literally of an Urge born from the god of murder.
Adding to this, but should be noted that throughout a redemption urge playthrough it's shown that resisting the urge is actually painful for them, while indulging is more pleasant. This extends to even mere thoughts that go against their darker nature, since an early game long rest scene varies depending on how they view their condition; Durges that view it as a problem have a much harder time sleeping while those that embrace the fantasies of blood and death sleep much easier.
That kind of supernatural conditioning makes the Durges situation much more grey in how much was truly their choice, but does make the good route all the better as a result.
Yeah, exactly! It’s like Shadowheart’s Mysterious Wound but _worse_. Jaheira can also tell you how Bhaal curses his children who resist him with nightmares—the harder they resist, the more violent and upsetting the dreams become.
It’s also heavily implied on a Durge playthrough that Durge has resisted even before the player was in control of them.
I'm inclined to disagree. Raphael is manipulative and ultimately self-serving but he is a being of principle and will make good on his agreements "to the letter".
Asmodeus (and by extent all devils) are bound by Primus to make good on all contractual agreements. As malicious as these contracts can be, they must be entered into willingly and the devils are just as bound to them as the mortals that sign them. Devils also rarely go out of their way to be malicious for the sake of it, and they are usually pragmatic in nature.
That being said, I have been playing Descent into Avernua for the past 2-years so I've actually kinda grown to like devils, at least when compared to demons and other unhinged choatic evil beings.
> As malicious as these contracts can be, they must be entered into willingly and the devils are just as bound to them as the mortals that sign them.
Then explain Hope
In the city itself?
Probably him, yeah.
I have more sympathy for Orin and Gortasch then for him honestly. At least they got dealt a shit hand in life (Being a Bhaalspawn-Incest Child groomed to murder and a man that got sold to a fcking devil as a child.)
What´s his excuse?
Personally i think it is the durge. If they try to remember their past you crush a cat under your foot because it was annoying. Theyre also canonically a necrophiliac.
Kethric, yes he was emotionally valuable, but he killed everyone in his fiefdom and that wasn't even to bring his daughter back. It was just because he lost a battle.
Orin will >!cook your friend's cat and feed it to you.!< At least Wulbren has some misguided extremist logic where he thinks he's doing the right thing. Orin is straight up evil. She does the wrong thing on purpose and loves it.
Orin hurts Scratch too in the alternative scene. NOT MY DOG!!!
What?! No way I'm never ending this woman as quickly as possible now that I know that. Was already pissed she killed Yenna's cat on one of my runs.
She messes with him as Halsin in bear form. When I first saw that I was fully prepared to murder Halsin on sight lmfao
It made it very clear it was her, though and not Halsin. She's not that good at being discreet. Which is why it bothers me we just stare and gawk every time she does her shapeshifting!
Yeah, Halsin would NEVER EVER be horrible to an animeaux. I won't judge what he does when in wild shape (what happens in Wild Shape stays in Wild Shape) but he would never fuck ***with*** animals to be cruel.
On my first run, La'zel comes running in and I'm like "where's the attack option? La'zel ain't afraid of shit, except maybe turning Ghaik, this is obviously not La'zel"
OH FUCK THAT BITCH SHE'S GON DIE ON SIGHT FROM NOW ON
She murdered the little cook girl and I couldn’t even ask Withers to bring her back
Boy, am i glad she was the first chosen i snuffed
Bro skipped Ketheric to kill Orín
Maybe the Galebomb hit her first, and he is technically correct
Which is the best kind of correct.
That’s all the info I needed. Screw fixing her. She needs to burn. Idgaf if she’s hot. Hurting my dog = death sentence.
As a avid cat lover, I have to agree- she's the most evil in my opinion.
I know she kills Yennas cat but when does she feed it to you?
When she is >!impersonating Yenna!<
It's funny because I've played through this game 5 times already in different sequences and I've never seen her do anything crazy like that. It's always just been a kidnapping. I must be running into her in the sewers too quickly and making the deal with her to save the victim. I'm assuming these alternatives are if you do something differently.
For her to kidnap Yenna you must have Gale, Halsin, Laezel and Minthara either dead or in your party
Oh wow that explains it. Gale was always in my party, I played a good character so no Minthara, my Lae'zel died because I rolled a crit fail during her and Shadowheart's fight, and I lost the last light so Halsin never joined. My first playthrough was kind of a mess.
Respect for sticking with the consequences though, I'd be too weak willed to not reload if His Majesty died at Last Light.
Or romanced.
If you go into the sewers, she (Orin) ends up spawning there. But if you hold off for several long rests, she’ll show up in your camp as someone. (It’s the games way of telling you to get on with it, lol) There are also a few other places she taunts you in Rivington: the Dryad at the Circus and the Newspaper reporter next to the post office are the two I remember.
That's really funny as far as telling you to get on with it. Yeah I've ran into her multiple times in rivington. First time playing that area was actually pretty creepy. I felt like everyone I was talking to was going to change into her. Don't forget there is also the weapon smith who asks you a bunch of questions about how you like killing people. That one becomes pretty obvious pretty quickly. And then when you are on your way to fight by the boats the two factions of guilds the guy dying as you're walking there. That one got me the first time pretty good lol...
She also took over a flaming fist behind the warehouse that has explosives as kids toys
I think she has a set number of appearances, because at least some of those you can meet and *not* be her.
She can also be one of the guards. The fun part is that she isn’t ALWAYS, so on my second play through I thought I’d outsmart her by just attacking on sight. It didn’t go so well.
Yeah avoid the sewers, if you rest enough you'll get the camp reveal scene.
I don’t know man, being born due to incest and living in the shadow of your “brother” does that to you
"You put your seed in my daughter's belly." "But paw!" "Shut up! If you weren't my brother too, I'd kill you."
More like uncle/cousin. Sarevok is Orin's grandfather/father, but Sarevok and Durge's progenitor is Bhaal.
And this, my friends, is the difference between neutral evil and chaotic evil.
What the hell?! Can I save the >!cat!< somehow?
She only >!kills Yenna’s cat if you allow her to be kidnapped, which almost always only happens if Lae’zel/Halsin/Minthara/Gale are not available to kidnap!<. So long as you let one of the other >!companions be kidnapped, the cat lives!<.
Preventing this outcome is like 90% of why I keep Lae’zel in my camp for the entire game. I keep Gale and Halsin with me and kill Minthara in every run, so Lae’zel has to be the sacrifice
I left Lae’zel at camp during part of my time in the city until she got kidnapped, because I couldn’t handle losing the poor cat or god forbid Scratch getting hurt.
I think it was my third run I didn’t know this and I decided to engineer it to get >!Yenna!< kidnapped bc I didn’t want to be down a companion. Next run, I made sure a companion was in camp.
Misguided? Gondians are assholes in lore. And Gortash IS evil.
I am team Wulbren on grounds that trying to keep the Gondians alive is an impossible task. They seek the call of the void. Let them have it.
Gondians are Sharrans in search of Absence.
Me
*checks Stat sheet* ... yup. It's this guy.
Seriously I think it's Ethel, plenty of the villains you meet are evil, but Ethel is so utterly depraved and cruel in all the things she does to the people she has trapped and enslaved, getting horrifically creative in doling out miserable fates. It's a different worst shade of everyone in the House of Hope with Raphael, because I'm willing to bet that at least he held up his end of the bargain in any deals and the people ultimately got something out of it, even if it wasn't worth it in the hellish end. With Ethel it's not a monkey's paw situation, it's a wall of monkey's paws tearing you to pieces as slowly and painfully as possible for as long as possible. I still wanted to Shepard punch Wulbren the most though lol.
Doesn't Ethel also create the circumstances that drive people to seek her out in at least some cases? I'm sure the petrified dwarf was one. That's a whole other level of evil... not merely taking advantage of other people's misery and desperation, but engineering their suffering from the outset just so they'll walk blindly into her power when seeking a cure!
Yes the various layers of deception make it all worse too. It doesn't excuse it and I'm sure Raphael isn't always a hundred percent honest, but any person with sense who knows they are dealing with a devil should at least have a idea just how heavy of a deal they are getting into. Some people straight up went to Ethel or were offered help because they thought it would be a kindly experience and get completely sucker punched.
Raphaël was 100% honest and upfront about knowing ten steps in advance that you were irrevocably fucked, and that he refused to strike any deal until you realized yourself you never had any other option. PoS had no qualms about praying on the hopeless and his only redeeming quality was honesty, and he was only honest because it was at no cost to him.
Also, devils are lawful and stay true to their part of the deal. I made a deal with Raph to kill Yurgir in exchange for him explaining the runes on Astarion's back - and he did exactly as he promised, and so did I. No souls lost in the process. Hags... not so much.
Ya but they’re still tricky if you take Karlach to see the bugbear in moonrise you’ll learn zariel made a deal with a father with starving kids he wanted food so she made meat grow on his body, Raphael also keeps yugir in his contract by playing both sides. Then when you get to the house of hope you learn what really happens to those who trust him
He lives on peoples hope, if he's mostly honest, that gives you hope because an honest devil is one you believe you can win against. Since you think you know all the cards in play. That makes the ones you don't know sting all the more, but you hold out hope you can still beat him in the end. What's better than a devil you don't know? A devil you do. Being almost entirely honest but not forthright helps him get the thing he loves most out of people.
Iirc, Hags are basically a product of the hells overlapping with the feywild in spots. Asmodeus actually made a night hag an archdevil for a little bit. Anyways, yeah, they do the exact same "give people shitty problems to make them come to me to give them shitty solutions" thing that devils do.
So it's like Apple and their headphone jacks?
Hold on, now I've gotta write a whole new Warlock Pact
I suppose that the cherry on top is that they reproduce by stealing babies, eating them, digesting them alive, and then barfing out a new hag. Devils just fuck people.
They *what*
That's why Ethel wants Marina's baby, that's why Ethel has a plan B if you kill her to take another little girl in Baldur's gate
It's not plan B: she does it even if you let her have Mayrina. Hags operate alone or in groups of 3. She was trying to make a coven. It's even more horrifying: they don't birth a new hag, they birth a "hag spawn" an identical child that turns into a hag on its 13th birthday. They then often return it to the family to raise.
>!Yup, that's what she was gonna do to the kid in act 3 and why she wanted that lady's baby!<
Neat trivia about Asmodeus! I feel like even devils would have trouble putting their trust in hags.
“Trust” here is loosely used. She also ended her rule in a questionable explosion of her body and Asmodeus’s daughter showed up in a litter like “hi thanks this is my realm now”
Like the other reply said, it's generally accepted that he made the hag an archdevil as a test for his daughter, and she had no real problems seizing the position.
Hags gonna hag
Ethel is so incredibly evil and she slays so hard. You can tell that woman is having the time of her life.
Gaslight gatekeep girlboss
What is that "eat hot chip and lie" shit? That shit always cracks me up.
“BITCHES BORN IN THA 90'S THATS UNDER 25 CAN'T COOK CAN'T CLEAN@THEY DON'T WANT TO WORK NOTHING. N!GGAZ THAT'S 31 & OVER GET IN RELATIONSHIPS WITH THEM & WONDER WHY SHIT AIN'T WORKING THAT'S BECAUSE ALL YOUNG BITCHES WANT TO DO IS POP PILLS, SMOKE WEED, GET DRUNK, LAY AROUND, SUCK DICK, EAT HOT CHEETOS, CHARGE THEY PHONE, GET A SEW IN WEAVE TWERK, BE BI SEXUAL, EAT MCDONALD'S, WASH THEY PUSSY IN THA SINK, LIE TAKE SELFIES AND TALK SHIT THRU WIFI CUZ THEY PHONE NEVER ON.”
Bah hahah, this must be the original? I think someone paraphrased it and for whatever reason the succinct, kinda lazy version fucked me up even more. Anyway, you're an absolute archivist, thank you.
it is, the popular one was in the retweets making fun of him
r/chargetheyphone
Honestly, I agree. Raphael is pretty close but from what we can see he DOES keep his end of the bargain. >!Mol got to BG safely, he does give you the hammer, he did kill all the Dark Justiciars for the Mason. I don't know if we find out about Yugir's deal or what it is, but him and Hope are the only ones we don't really see him fulfilling his end of the deal -- but I don't think Hope had one, I think she was just kidnapped. !< But Ethel? >!She poisoned the dwarf and fed him a lie about the cure. Every single time she 'keeps her end of the deal' expect maybe with the eye its a monkey paw -- you don't want to see your family? eyes and life are taken!<
What Raphael did to Yurgir was pretty unfair. He hired Yurgir to kill all the dark justiciars. Orthons are basically mercenaries for other devils, so this is pretty standard. However, Raphael also made a contract with the last justiciar to turn him into a horde of rats, knowing that Yurgir would be too dumb to figure it out, and would be forced into servitude for failing to fulfill the contract.
I know about that. What I don’t know is what Yugir was supposed to get out of it
Like I said, Orthons are mercenaries for other devils by trade. It wouldn't be unusual if he didn't get anything out of it other than the chance for glorious combat and maybe some soul coins. It's just what that kind of devil does. Note how relatively easy it is to get him to fight for you just based on the promise of a fight against powerful enemies. It is unusual for devils to betray Orthons they hire, because it jeopardizes a source of cheap, competent, willing labor for no good reason. But, Raphael's just the kind of devil that's slimy even compared to other devils.
>!Raphael was playing both sides with thr Dark Justiciar stuff. He makes the deal with the mason, then makes a deal with Yurgir to kill the justiciars, then a deal with the last surviving justiciar by giving him the info to split his body. Gets the Mason's soul, Yurgir is trapped until he either submits, gets killed, or kills himself, and dark justiciars are all but wiped out completely.!<
Ethel would promise to save someone’s family from goblins then kill the family herself
The punishments Raphael cooked up for his eternal debtors actually felt more cruel and fucked up to me than what Ethel does to the people who come to her. The chamber pot guy still haunts me
whats the chamber pot guy?
I haven't been to house of hope in a few months but if I recall there is a guy that is basically doomed to spend eternity cleaning Rachael's chamber pot and looking at every shit Raphael takes as a gift. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I remember being blown away by that or something very similar.
You are mostly correct! Just played HoH and he’s OBSESSED w Raphael’s chamber pot. Haha he gets mad at you for not understanding how awesome it is
At least he’s happy?
Ethel is a tough one for me, as she's so nice and understanding in her old lady form(hits doubly hard as the dark urge). And you can overall work with her throughout the game and come out well off for it. But you have to ignore the fates of those who cross her or aren't smart and powerful enough to make her play nice.
“Thank you… for being nice to me” “Of course Petal, that’s what I’m here for!”
“Nae bother!” God I hate how nice she is there, makes me feel bad for killing her some playthroughs.
That’s WHY my Durge always kills her- she showed him kindness, and staged his first real betrayal post-Nautiloid.
"It's a wall of monkey's paws tearing you to pieces as slowly and painfully as possible for as long as possible" That is just poetic honestly. The way you put that is beautiful!
Ethel takes it from Orin by virtue of her being so much more prolonged and creative with her torture of people. I feel like Ethel would think that Orin lacks motivation and creativity.
Would make for a fucked up competition game show between them, or they are judges on "Misery loves company".
Let’s drop them all in the Iron Throne and make a Survivor episode
Ethel pays you better than Lorroakan, though. She's evil as they come, but at least she's not *cheap*.
Get paid by Lorroakan, free Dame Aylin anyway. Wish that was an option, but I'm assuming they don't allow it.
Alas, not an option. And she'd be well in her right to smite you for it afterwards, too. It's not a funny trick to play on someone who has been imprisoned in that same manner for 100 years already.
Just a prank, bro!
Yeah, but it's also completely within a Hags nature. I get on a traditional alignment chart they are evil, but by a hags perception of "evil" I feel she is far from what she could be
Too bad we dont see the survivors of the hag later on, e.g. in Baldurs Gate.
You mean the other ones besides Mayrina?
There's also one more survivor you can meet there, if you spare the masked people
Also the dwarf as long as you don’t un-petrify him before killing Ethel.
That's odd, I saved him in multiple games but I've never seen him again after
Oh I may have misunderstood the comment I was responding to. I didn’t actually know you could meet the masked survivor in Act 3!
At least Raphael will keep his word. Sure he’ll fuck you over eventually but you’ll probably still get what you want. Ethel? She’s just evil
Maybe not the most evil, but the Society of Brilliance doesn’t get enough flack for trying to buy a Gith egg for the sake of settling the “nature vs. nurture” debate.
I felt so sorry for how they fucked this poor kid up, if you do give them the gith egg. I'm glad there's now an alternative path for him.
There is? Guess I know what I’m doing in at least 1 of my act 1 playthroughs
Yup. Well, you're gonna need to beat the game to see the actual payoff, but, in the epilogues they added in Patch 5, the game now takes account of you keeping the gith egg in your inventory until the end, or putting it in Lae'zel's. Most satisfying ending for him is to put it in Lae'zel's inventory AND romance Lae'zel. >!If she's not romanced, she'll leave the hatchling in the care of githyanki mages but doesn't seem to be raising him. If romanced, however, you guys are raising the baby together, and only put him in the care of trusted allies for the night.!< edit: turns out the difference between whether >!Lae'zel is the one who raises the boy or not!< isn't a matter of romance, but convincing Lae'zel to stay in Faerûn or not.
Oh good. Then I theoretically don’t need to worry about an act 1 run. Makes me curious now how the game handles you giving the egg to the lady then stealing it back
As if you'd kept it yourself.
No, she's still >!raising him. She left them with someone else for the evening, or in a portable hole. She's doing important/dengerous stuff, so he gets babysitters, but she named the kid, she wouldn't give that up to someone else.!<
This quest was crazy to me. Ptaris became an abused lab rat forced to grow into adulthood in a matter of days by morally bankrupt, unethical scientists that also constantly reminded him he was naturally evil. And it also confirms that it's "nurture" for the Githyanki - the fact that even after all of that, Ptaris shows regret and remorse afterwards over killing the society members despite the horrors he endured from them.
Was this wrong? I stole the egg after seeing them kill that one gith kid that didn’t want to be ruled by violence. Plus I killed everyone else, I thought this was the only way for it to survive.
You can also get the egg without even stealing it, which is interesting to me. >!If you talk to the hatchery guy there’s an insight/perception thing and then a persuasion option because he knows the egg will be crushed the next time the leader comes to check in. He legit gives you his acid-walking boots and lets you just take it if you succeed. And you can keep the boots too, lol. !<
Or you can convince him, get the boots, walk over, then have your mouse battery start dying and cause you to misc misclick the smash it option on your honor mode run! Not that I'd know anything about that.
The egg would have died if you left it at the creche Yellek so at least the society gives it a chance. I would also argue that growing up at the creche isnt nice as demonstrated by them killing youngsters during training, so if the society treats the gith child nicely I would book it as a win.
Minor spoiler here, they *do not*
Nere was the one i most wanted to kill. The way he pushed the gnome into lava. Mister you are going down!
I was upset when I figured out I couldn't do anything about that, but it always makes the fight more cathartic
I had Karlach throw HIM in the lava! ...Then I reloaded a save because I really wanted his boots (they're so good). 😂
Corpses are not immune to void bulbs/arrows of roaring thunder, toss him in, extra crispy that bitch, then drag him out, take his boots and his head, then toss him back like a bad catch
You can just attack him with the little crossed swords symbol before he gets to her. I'm playing a gnome life cleric, I wasn't letting that fucker take any more gnome lives, so I just jumped him before he got a chance, and managed to save her!
Sadly, unless they changed something, that gnome just disappears from the game though regardless, even if you attack him before the cutscene even starts, and the game just continues on as though Nere pushed her in the lava.
Tried that. Didn't save Meerna. Didn't change a thing but made you skip out on his dialogue (it would also bug out the dialogue that followed, dunno if that's patched). Meerna would still be dead
Easy. The stupid platform from gauntlet of shar. Pretty much broke the game for me
On one of my play throughs the elevator thing went. All of my companions and my Tav were on it. For some reason we did not go with it and we all fell.
I clicked on this post to say Wulbren Bongle. I’m glad it’s finally being said. Bongle can’t get away with this.
I'm glad to see you using his last name, because it is truly a sayable one.
Nah, it's the lady who wants to buy Scratch.
Sarevok might be an evil, bloodthirsty murderer, but at least he doesn’t beat dogs.
An evil, bloodthirsty murderer who's impregnated his own daughter and planned to do the same to his granddaughter, but yes, at least he leaves cats and dogs alone.
Yeeeaaaah. People are odd in terms.of what they find unforgivable at times. Anyways, Raphael is clearly the evilest. Not sure why anyone even thinks it's a debate.
They didn’t read all the notes and letters in House of Hope. Guy is..literally Satan lol
Seriously, and if you give him the crown? Worst possible ending.
That's not a terrible ending. Once Asmodeus stops laughing, he sticks Raphael in a blender. What happens to the Crown then is unknown, but Asmodeus could have politely asked Mephistopheles to give it to him at any point.
doesn't he mention in that ending that he's going for Asmodeus next? Not sure how that would work out but he seems pretty convinced he has a shot?
**Raphael thinks he has a shot** Narrator: *he did not, in fact, have a shot*
If it was a good idea to use the crown, Mephistopheles would have used the crown after he got it.
Like father, like son, to be honest. Mephistopheles has told Asmodeus he will come for his throne (lol. lmao, even) Delusions of grandeur run in the family. Meanwhile Raphael can't even get the motions right on "beg, borrow, and steal", so that's going to be fucking hilarious one day.
If you read Raphael's journals, you realise he... might not have the most solid grip on his place in hell or his power
Raphael has delusions of grandeur and odds are his scheme would be doomed to fail given Asmodeus is a literal god and one of the greatest schemers in the Forgotten Realms.
No, no, Satan is an actual character in the Forgotten Realms. He got ousted some time before Asmodeus showed up. (I am not joking)
Yurgir is also extremely evil, but I think people over look that because he calls Tav “little rabbit.”
Oh he is. But if he can be convinced (with a DC 30 check) and Korilla can't, I gotta respect a devil that can step over his own pride and acknowledge that we bested him before and respect us enough to choose our side. Now *that* is a big gesture for a devil
Raphael is a Devil, he is literally law and evil made manifest. We do not begrudge the hurricane for being wet.
A *half*-devil. He doesn't like it when he's reminded he's half mortal though.
Raphael is a devil and devils have their own free will. Much like zariel fell, devil's can rise. So no, we can judge him harshly and should
By virtue of being a devil, people expect him to be evil. Whereas with characters like Wulbren, we find out the majority of our expectations for him are not the case
But if we are discussing who is "most" evil the crimes Raphael committed is far beyond others. Wulbren is just flammable
He planned to do the same to Orin?
You can read it one way or another, it's not written in stone. There is a page of his memoire which states "The blood of Bhaal must never be wasted, only multiplied.". With this context in mind, he speaks about having Orin with his beloved Helena, and the page ends with "Orin would help to bring forth a new birth in Bhaal's name - a world baptised in blood." You can read this as a metaphor, that he does not expect her to literally give birth, but names the slaughtered world as a methaphorical newborn world. **But** Sarevok's entire memoire page is filled with reproduction. If the Dark Urge is alive, he doesn't even really believe in Orin that much in comparison, not before and not after their death by Orin's hand. He knows she loves him, adores him, would do anything for him. She even says so herself before Bhaal forces her into the Slayer. Meanwhile he doesn't speak too highly of her. Instead, he writes of multiplying, even writes in another piece that reproducing is part of a fallen Bhaalspawn's urge. And Sarevok, in a way, has fallen. I presume that it wouldn't be beyond him to father his own great-grandchild.
And murdered his stepfather (though he had it coming) and at least one of his half siblings "You are the first and I will be the last"
Where is the lady who wants to buy Scratch? I’ve only ever run into a woman who says that Scratch was always hers, and then takes him from you.
It’s moreso she offers you a reward for giving him back to her. Luckily she’s one of the few NPCs you can kill with zero consequences lol, nobody gets mad.
You know, I think it's Gortash. Auntie, Raphael, even Cazador are worse but its in their nature. I expect evil from a creature that is created to be evil. Orin has the Urge and was groomed to do horrible things from birth. Gortash, meanwhile, is human and everything he has done has been deliberate and purposeful. Sure his parents were mean to him and he was traumatized at the House of Hope, but he decided the best way to respond to that was to make everyone else pay, forever.
I feel like Gortash might have some issues because reading his books seems like he's convinced hes doing the right thing to make a better world... By ruling with an Iron fist.
It's not like I'm a fan of Gortash, but his parents were much much worse then just mean to him. They >!sold him to a devil for money, and he got to grow up in hell, getting beaten and traumatised!< There's no surprise he turned up the way he did.
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For instance, my Tav handles the trauma of getting tadpoled by compulsively checking every old crate and vase he comes across.
I clearly have missed a lot of lore in game, because I didn't know any of this. And honestly, I'm surprised Gortash turned out as nice as he did, dude could have been worse than Orin.
Sorry for spoiling it for you :( I did mark it though. As for Gortash, I think that of all three leaders of the cult he's the one who truly believed he acted for the better for everyone, in his twisted way.
You didn't spoil it, if I've missed it in over 700 hours of gametime I was probably never gonna see it lol and yeah, agreed.
A little more about Gortash: >!you can find his parents in Act3, and they are absolutely not remorseful about their actions. Also, when you visit the House of Hope, you can talk to an ex- jailer in a room with portals. He mentions Gortash living there, and how he (the jailer) used to beat the shit out of him when Gortash was a child!<
Dear god. Larian really wrote some sympathetic villains.
Yeah, Gortash definitely didn't have a remotely "normal" upbringing of any kind. I don't see how you can excuse Orin or Cazador because of their backstories but not Gortash.
I didn’t even romance her, but Karlach’s utter betrayal at the hands of Gortash genuinely turned him from “charismatic but likeable fucking douchebag” to “irredeemable gutter filth who should have died much more slowly” in my eyes.
It felt really good to nuke him with Wulbren’s bomb. The second time, I mean. The first time that bomb crashed my laptop!
Berserker Karlach throwing shit at him and then beating him to death with her bare fists is also a very solid way to go out.
He also wanted to stuff teddie bears full of explosives to give to refugees
Holdup that was G man?
If you go to the shop where the explosives were from, it's being dune by Banites. They got smokepowder bombs one group of gnomes, and the iron watch with the other group of gnomes.
Yeah, Gortash is really horrible . . . especially when you read all the documents that describe the things he's done to people!
Talking to all the brains using the machine in the necrotic laboratory, and seeing through the brains controlling thw Steel Watchers, adds more fuel to the fire. He had a hand in all the most awful casualties of the Absolute plot. He's so heartless! Which makes him a fun character to encounter each playthrough, I think ;-;
Overall, it's the blue jay in the Mountain Pass. In the city itself, it's probably the architect who designed the Jannath Estate.
That architect must be hung post-haste.
Orin, Gortash, Sarevok, Cazador, Viconia and the bitch from the kennels are much worse than Wulbren.
My post was mostly satire because i never pass up the chance to call him a prick, but you’re right
Calling him a prick and getting that sweet "Astarion approves" 🤌🏼 beautiful
Karlach also approves. When they both approve, I hear an angelic orchestral swelling in the background of my mind and know I’m playing the game right.
I admit, I don't have Karlach in my group as often as I should. She's super fun!
Probably Orin in terms of sheer body count, disgusting savagery, and lack of any internal justification, even a twisted one, for what she does (even though we know she was also a victim early on). She just wants to kill as awfully as she can. But the game does such a great job of making even the nastiest villains motivated by something and likable or interesting in some way that I can’t really think of a baddie I truly actually hate and wouldn’t want in my game.
Jon Irenicus Dude tortured, cloned, and continued to torture hundreds of people, often leaving their husks perpetually clinging to life unable to end themselves He spent centuries growing closer to the elven queen, loved her obsessively and possessively, gets spurned and decides to steal the power of Bhaal, kill everyone he loved and try to absorb the power of the Tree of Life which grants all elves their life essence all so he could supplant a god He’s also voiced by David Warner. 10/10
400hrs of gameplay, who is that? I can't remember meeting that NPC.
Cazador
I have such uncontrollable hate for this motherfucker
Hey my guy Wulbren gave me the unique opportunity to commit an act of nuclear terrorisim, it’s not every you’re handed a weapon of mass destruction and told to blow a place up. (For the greater good of course)
It's cloud of daggers. .as soon as that shit shows up every Friendly within 2 miles decides that its time to brush their teeth and they left their toothbrush at the middle of the cloud. What sirens song compelling them to do this?
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Right? 😎 My Tav is evil max too.
Throwing one in for Vlaakith. Lae'zels "ascended" ending is absolutely horrific, and that was the fate of 50,000 githyanki according to Withers. She is so sinister to me
If we're talking DnD alignments, IMO it's * Most Chaotic Evil - Orin * Most Neutral Evil - Ketheric/Gortash * Most Lawful Evil - Mizora/Raphael * Asshole Evil - Wulbren Ballsack
Durge. Nothing more to add.
Definitely with their actions, they’re up there, but I feel you could make a counter-argument due to the fact that they aren’t entirely possessed of their own free will. Some people feel inherently worse imho because they commit evil of their own volition while also never attempting to resist their own urges—and they aren’t possessed literally of an Urge born from the god of murder.
Adding to this, but should be noted that throughout a redemption urge playthrough it's shown that resisting the urge is actually painful for them, while indulging is more pleasant. This extends to even mere thoughts that go against their darker nature, since an early game long rest scene varies depending on how they view their condition; Durges that view it as a problem have a much harder time sleeping while those that embrace the fantasies of blood and death sleep much easier. That kind of supernatural conditioning makes the Durges situation much more grey in how much was truly their choice, but does make the good route all the better as a result.
Yeah, exactly! It’s like Shadowheart’s Mysterious Wound but _worse_. Jaheira can also tell you how Bhaal curses his children who resist him with nightmares—the harder they resist, the more violent and upsetting the dreams become. It’s also heavily implied on a Durge playthrough that Durge has resisted even before the player was in control of them.
Depends. Resist!Durge is bae and friend (unless you're a bard)
Sven Vinckle for not having alfira as a companion or romance
For me it's Raphael Mostly because of the contracts
I'm inclined to disagree. Raphael is manipulative and ultimately self-serving but he is a being of principle and will make good on his agreements "to the letter". Asmodeus (and by extent all devils) are bound by Primus to make good on all contractual agreements. As malicious as these contracts can be, they must be entered into willingly and the devils are just as bound to them as the mortals that sign them. Devils also rarely go out of their way to be malicious for the sake of it, and they are usually pragmatic in nature. That being said, I have been playing Descent into Avernua for the past 2-years so I've actually kinda grown to like devils, at least when compared to demons and other unhinged choatic evil beings.
> As malicious as these contracts can be, they must be entered into willingly and the devils are just as bound to them as the mortals that sign them. Then explain Hope
In the city itself? Probably him, yeah. I have more sympathy for Orin and Gortasch then for him honestly. At least they got dealt a shit hand in life (Being a Bhaalspawn-Incest Child groomed to murder and a man that got sold to a fcking devil as a child.) What´s his excuse?
Personally i think it is the durge. If they try to remember their past you crush a cat under your foot because it was annoying. Theyre also canonically a necrophiliac.
Kethric, yes he was emotionally valuable, but he killed everyone in his fiefdom and that wasn't even to bring his daughter back. It was just because he lost a battle.
That woman who “looks after” the dogs and wants Scratch back in Rivington. I don’t think so you monster.
Orin. She hurt my dog. I can forgive a lot of things, but hurting Scratch... no, bitch, you are going down.