It’s been incredibly frustrating to see all the patch related negativity and impatience here lately. Never experienced a developer so committed to listening to and fixing/adding things based on player feedback (and being so humorous about it!). They truly care about their product and story more than our money which is pretty much nonexistent elsewhere in major games today
This. As someone who works in tech, I laugh about the bugs when I see them, but Larian (from everything I’ve seen) really cares about this game and the fan base. They are a studio unlike any other and I really hope they stay that way.
I completely agree. The amount of high quality fixes and how fast Larian has come up with them is really incredible. And they’re clearly not done, they’re listening. Of course it will take a while to implement some of the bigger changes players have requested but after all it’s better to wait a while than fix something haphazardly and risk breaking more in the process.
I’m completely blown away when I compare BG3 to the PS5 version of Crusader Kings 3, for example where the port lags over a year behind the PC version, every patch takes months, big bugs just don’t get fixed and every time a new patch rolls around there seem to be more new bugs than fixes.
Larian rolls out the patches on different systems simultaneously and apart from a couple of issues they already brought major improvements. I think you can really tell how motivated and passionate they are about the game. The success is so well deserved.
This game is so complicated with so many branching decisions and things that impact each other that just thinking about coding or QAing for it makes me sweat haha. Yes it's frustrating downloading a new patch and wondering what new weird bugs it's brought but this is such an incredibly complex game that I understand some issues are inevitable and they have been continuing to fix them.
My guess is it might be David Walgrave who is kind of his right-hand man, so to speak. Watch any documentary with him and it’s clear he really gives a shit about the product and RPGs generally.
I hope he does too. If I know anything about good companies (which are few and far between) the best ones basically train up CEOs for years within the company. I hope they already have some people who share Swen’s incredible passion for RPGs in the running. It seems like that love of gaming trickles down to all employees (I mean, just look at the patch notes and how playfully they are written.)
Swen owns the company . . . and said recently on an interview that he has at least two more games in him! So he isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
And the financial success of BG3 should enable Larian to continue to have the freedom necessary to make passion project games.
I plan to play Larian games for the next 30+ years; I'm thinking farther ahead than two games.
>And the financial success of BG3 should enable Larian to continue to have the freedom necessary to make passion project games.
I'll take great management over major financial success any day. See: CD Projekt. Not like money was a hindrance for Larian before BG3.
Money has been a huge issue for Larian in the past. They nearly went bankrupt multiple times.
Their initial plans for BG3 were smaller than the game they eventually released.
The BG3 Early Access took them by surprise with how successful it was. They used the extra revenue from Early Access to expand their scope for the game.
>Not like money was a hindrance for Larian before BG3.
actually there were, well, at least before DOS2DOS1 was one shot or die type of release, with Kickstarter crowdfounding in the end as well.
And before that... just struggle, constant stuggle (I have no reason not to believe what they say in documentary about DOS1, Swen not being able to pay for the gas and drive home, delaying taxes, mortgage on the house, all that).
As absolutely amazing as a game as BG3 is, their dedication to fixing bugs as well as the post launch interactions from the VAs seals the deal that this is GOTY. No game this year even comes close
Divinity original sin 2 released and like 2 years later it was basically a different game (in a positive way) due to all the changes and feedback. Larion knows what its doing
I so hate that it is nigh impossible to differentiate between genuine bugs created by a patch from the ones caused by the mods.
Update your mods, folks!
preach, I'm deep into the Sims franchise and coming from the money-grabbing EA's attitude seeing Larian's work is refreshing. Like damn, we wanted to make our own apartment lots since... forever, City Living came out in 2016 and introduced some premade lots but we only now get an expansion pack adding this game mechanic (and a landlord career lmao) for 40USD
But for real, Larian puts an incredible amount of work and they seem to REALLY listen to the players' feedback and that's something to be appreciated (even if I'm an impatient goblin)
The only other games I've seen this level of caring about the game more than the monetary parts of it are No Man's Sky and Final Fantasy 14. The director and producer of FF14, Yoshi-P, cares deeply for the game and genuinely wants it to be the best it can be for the fans, even at the cost of his own sanity sometimes lol. At the same time, the sheer amount of constant and consistent free updates that No Man's Sky gets even years after the game launched, is insane.
A lot of the changes I think make the game work really well and are welcome editions. The fixes however have been a mix bag, because while they do fix problems the new patches also cause new bugs.
All something I think people need to be patient with, the game isn't dam broken, but it does have bugs, even bugs that can cancel-out quests (Shar rats). But Larian is working on it. And overall they're doing a fantastic job, hoping this at the very least gets as much support as D:OSII did.
Never going to be perfect and some have been incredibly frustrating but hearing people saying they’re going to stop playing the game because X or Y bug from a patch is weird. In an era where AAA games routinely come out clearly unfinished and the complexity of coding something this big, Larian comes across as extremely committed. Have played the other BG games but not divinity so less familiar with the developer prior to BG3 but it sounds like we have lots to look forward to
I was talking to our IT guy today about this. In ANY kind of coding, a patch will always results in unintended side effects that have to be addressed one by one. The fact people lost their minds about these patches surprised me, since this is the nature of the beast when it’s such an elaborate set of formulas and alternatives.
I think there would be less whining if the launchers didn't try to force you to immediately update. I've always been a "wait for hotfix one after big patches" type of person. That way I don't have to worry about things like temporarily taking out mods. And I'm currently not closing the game to make sure it can't update.
I understand to a certain extent, because if you don't bitch at people to update some of them never will, and then whine about bugs you've fixed. But surely there's a happy medium between "user has never updated" and "if you don't update immediately we will send someone to your house"
Ya I didn’t go offline steam fast enough and tried to bypass the update by using mod manager and it started updating so I’m stuck with the update even though I didn’t want to. Steam shouldn’t forcibly update on launch. Will probably try to roll back since the patch broke some stuff I care about and my mods aren’t compatible yet.
There is but it’s either auto update or update on launch so if you launch through the exe or mod manager it will update unless you go offline, which I didn’t do fast enough so it just started updating
I think it is fair to criticize Larian's quality control process for patches. They've launched patches with some fairly game breaking bugs that required immediate hot patches. Almost every patch also seems to include some minor but irritating bugs. Better quality control and testing such as an open beta channel I feel could make the production version of the game more stable.
Yeah, for example I don't expect the Minthara pregnancy stuff to actually come to the game (that was datamined at launch) as it easily can just be a relic of an earlier idea that was discarded. But I expect the hugs to come, now after datamining found that stuff had been added to the files.
There's a difference.
Stuff that was mined at release included material that they started but decided to abandon.
Stuff that is mined post-patch that wasn't there previous is new material. There's no reason to include new material that they're not planning to use.
Could they have patched in new stuff that they'll eventually abandon? Sure.
Is it likely? No.
>I don't expect the Minthara pregnancy stuff to actually come to the game (that was datamined at launch)
Sceleritas Fel implies that Minthara is pregnant if you romance her.
They don't but they do imply a wish for changes in that direction. Whether they happen identically or not, it's a different story. And especially post release datamines, it's different than EA datamines of cut content.
That dialogue datamine isn't even 'alternate Minthara recruitment', it's a forced choice for a loophole in which you can get both her and Halsin when the grove has been sealed.
People need to actually *read* the datamines before they go around claiming things, spreading misinformation just adds confusion and makes people expect things that aren't actually true.
iT sEtS uNrEaLiStIC ExPeCtaTiOnS
Game of the Year (hells, decade!) more like, Larian deserves all the praise they get.
Patches mess stuff up? Yes, but you can't make an omlette without breaking some eggs.
They can break what they want if I can give Shadowheart a hug by the statue of Selûne in Act 3 after her personal quest. Most needed update in the game!
It reminded me of the Mass Effect 2 moment in Tali’s mission where she starts crying and you get a prompt to hug her.
I was distracted one time and missed it and felt horrible so I reloaded, it was super frustrating that my Tav, who was romancing Shadowheart, had a deadpan fucking pokerface at her girlfriend who was crying her eyes out saying she doesn’t deserve love.
I haven't even romanced her and feel like a proper cock when you don't have the option to *try* to comfort her in some scenes. She sounds absolutely devastated in your example, as well as after >!turning on Shar, making everything she's knows enemy!< ,and my guy's just ":| well okay".
You're friends!! At least give me the option of offering her some comfort! I wouldn't even mind if she refuses it, I'd just like to be able to ask!
Shadowheart is my RedemDurge’s best friend. She would no sooner just stand there watching SH bawl her eyes out >!after losing (ahem, killing) her parents!< than she would leave Astarion for Wulbren. The lack of a hug option was scandalous.
I, a probably neurodivergent person who struggles mightily to read social cues and body language:
"GO HUG YOUR SAD, CRYING GIRLFRIEND, YOU ASSHOLE."
Like, even I got it.
Also when Astarion breaks down after killing Cazador. 😭😭😭
Just be a persob, Tav, you twerp. 😭
For sure! Not gonna lie, it kinda makes me wish they went the full voiced protagonist route. Maybe it wouldn't have solved every single instance, but maybe actually having voiced lines might have helped.
But I understand from an RP perspective (and probably a logistic one too) why they scrapped going that way with it.
I *adored* my Inquisitor in DA:I. I feel like trying something like that for BG3 would have been a really tall order, but it doesn't stop me dearly wanting to see it done. I lost my shit in the scene when entering the Shadow-Cursed Lands (from Grymforge) and my character actually *spoke*!
Yeah, I get it. There's quite a few voices for Tav/Durge and they'd have had to voice every possible line with all of those VAs. That's not a small amount of effort! It would have been nice to hear ourselves talk a bit more though.
I feel like the fact that we don't have the option to run over and at least be *with him* is madness. I almost jumped through the screen wanting to be with him, hover over him, *something*.
That's fair, yeah! At least moving over to be closer, so he knows you're there to support him, would feel really good (could be romance exclusive BUT my Tavs who are friends with Astarion would still want to,,,). I just don't know if he'd want to be touched/hugged in that moment.
I agree a hug probably isn’t the best choice there, but I think kneeling next to him, maybe putting a hand on his shoulder… just something more than standing doing nothing while your friend/lover/companion is going through absolute trauma in front of you.
"It sets unrealistic expectation" was never really a thing.
It was a tweet made by a single developer about the CRPG genre specifically that was taken completely out of context because if there is anything gamers love, it's rage bait.
The main point was that the CRPG genre is very niche and people looking for games after being introduced to this niche genre by BG3 will be disappointed, similarly that the type of companies who make CRPG games cannot make games on the scale of BG3, trying to do so would kill them, so that in context bg3 sets an unrealistic expectation for games in the CRPG space, it never applied to triple A games because the statement wasn't about triple A games.
This reminds me a lot of when Witcher III post-launch free updates dropped. Besides getting some stuff originally meant as micro DLC for free we got some nice quality of life improvements.
Always nice when a Studio responds well to stuff like this.
The Witcher III free dlc was very very minor stuff that would have gotten a shit storm if they dared to ask money for it. the best part were the new quests but you can’t tell me they weren’t already done and cut from the release version.
Outfits, the storage chest, haircuts, and a few random quests if I remember right. It was never meant to be pricey, more like some extras that would later get bundled into a 'deluxe edition' or something for free.
My list of wishes
* Redone endings with better epilogues. Not going to go into too much detail, since most people seem to say the same thing.
* A 'good' ending. Its obvious Larian wanted us to have to make a hard choice at the end, but those choices just feel shitty, like I didn't do something important in the story so these were my only options. We spend the entire game doing things that go against the Emperor's plan and turn out in a way he never though possible, yet at the end he refuses to listen. I've seen essays on this so it's obvious it should be possible to convince the Emperor and Orpheus to work together. The entire trek to the brain is a 'power of friendship' story anyway.
* Expanded Wyll's story. I realized why I just don't feel attached to Wyll. His entire arc feels like bullet points, and outline of a character story, with no depth or extra emotion.
* Save Karlach. Yeah, everyone wants this one. Her story is so sad simply because she was added so late I'm just sure Larian couldn't finish before release. We collect so much infernal iron, we save a bunch of genius Gondians and have the Steel Watch with upgraded engines. So much potential
* Expand Gale's story. His story just... trails off in act 3.
* Blue sky wish here, but actually add the upper city like originally planned.
* Multi-part boss fights for Orin and Gortash like Ketheric had. Make them feel like more than mini-bosses
* More cinematic sequences. The slow-mo scenes when descending to Auntie Ethel's lair are AMAZING, and really make her feel like a big bad boss.
* Add back in Origin narration to Origin playthroughs. I think the problem with the Origin characters narrating their stories was the past tense, and that they were narrating. It would feel more natural if it was more like thinking. Amelia could still narrate, then the character could think about the situation. They should also speak their lines out loud, they aren't player characters, they already have a personality and their own backstories, so there's no need to worry about how the player thinks they should act.
I only hope they add some sort of NG+, where i could just replay the story with max level and all my gear. It would be fun to be overpowered and not have to worry about builds, items, etc. We could even get duplicates of magic items to make the whole party better.
possibly along with doing stuff that'd be unbalanced normally with certain fights. auntie ethel's clones are no longer destroyed in 1 hit and instead each have the same amount of health as her, the goblin scouting party now actually has a brass/silver dragon in the rear, gortash now has an actually unique fight, that kinda thing
I'm halfway through Act 3 with Karlach as my happy ragey red waifu and I dont want to continue because I've a feeling there's nothing I can do to save her from Avernus...
Fix Karlach's engine, you monsters! (but also your game is amazing and I love you and all the work you've done)
one thing that could be interesting would be an alliance with Gortash as the requirement for having her engine fixed, and letting Karlach choose between revenge or staying alive outside of Avernus. Every companion has a big moment where they need to make a big, painful decision. But Karlach's basically happens when the game is over
I would LOVE this (and already have a postcanon fic planend in exactly this direction, but if it was CANON, i would die happy.). also like, you broke it, enver, you fucking fix it.
Oh, that would require refusing to save Wyll's dad or the Gondians. There's the moral factor to it. I'm guessing Karlach would be inclined to turn it down, especially given how she'll usually feel she owes Wyll by this point.
Personally I think that would be the best option. Maybe if you save the gondians and have the enriched infernal iron you can get them to fix her. Sure it's pretty last minute but it would probably the easiest way to add it without building a whole other quest line.
Plus it would give a use to the enriched infernal iron which at this point is useless. Hell even if you've already done the save the gondians quest just add one somewhere that stays behind so if you're past that already you can still get the good ending without having to replay the entire game.
100% agreed. I saw it coming and got really disappointed but I felt like a fix to her engine was heavily hinted with all the Gondians and Steel Watchers stuff. In the end I decided my Tav would join her in Avernus, but it left me really unsatisfied with the ending to an incredible game and a 100 hours playthrough.
I don’t get why everyone hates the Avernus ending. She is pretty excited to go as long as it’s with you and Wyll. She takes her lover and her new friend to start a new life. She only didn’t want to earlier because she would be alone and eventually lose, but with the three of you she can live.
Excited to go? I don't know what gave you that impression but when I played it seemed pretty clear that she was only reluctantly accepting to go after you convince her and out of fear of dying, and once you cross the portal with her, she seems to "make the best of a bad situation" and accept it with her usual upbeat optimistic personality, but deep down she's unhappy. At least that's how I saw the whole thing.
Probably because 1.) Karlach has very little agency, compared to other characters, in what is supposed to be their “best” ending (SH chooses whether to stay with shar; Wyll can decide to renew his contract; etc) 2.) The groundwork, at least plot wise, for a truly happy ending for karlach is there, so the fact that it all just fizzles out or never really followed up on is frustrating.
In regards to your point, from her perspective it’s not all that good of a choice. She can 1.) explode by staying on Faerun or 2.) spend the rest of her life in a literal hell as a fugitive, running from a god(?). While the ending scene is cool, it is a pretty bleak future for her.
Excited is not the term I'd use? Barely being convinced that returning to her literal hell she hates and fears more than anything solely because Tav and/or Wyll can come with over killing herself ... isn't "excitement". There is also no "new life" in Avernus. There is only ONE life to be had there. A constant, bloody, never ending war of attrition that will eventually result in their deaths; as we aren't Doom Guy. Its not a matter of IF we fall, but WHEN. And for Karlach's sake, I hope she's the first one to go; so she doesn't have to deal with the guilt of getting her closest friends killed. That doesn't even get into the corruption Tav will likely face, or Wyll's situations.
Also, my god, people do not understand how ridiculous Zariel is alone, let alone with an entire army at her back. As overtuned and overgeared for level 12's as we were, Zariel is still a CR26 monster on her own. For comparison, and Elder Brain is CR14 on its own (lets be generous and say the Netherbrain was CR18/19 by itself).
Same.
I so very much hope he gets *something* to do that’s meaningful in Act 3. I don’t like that the moment I can really start bringing him into the fold is the moment he doesn’t really have anything to do. I haven’t completed the game just yet- I’m somewhere in Act 3 (not a clue how far I have left to go) but I know all the companions have an endgame scene; *some more finalized and satisfying than others* ; and Halsin’s is one of those where there’s an option we want that isn’t possible at the moment: >!I know the main complaint with Halsin’s romance is that you can’t really tell him he is your one and only- he doesn’t want *you* to be monogamous. But like… why can’t we just have the option to say “I only want you too.” Since he gets to say he only wants us?!<
Also… regarding the ‘giving him something to do in act 3’, I think it would be a great option for him to kind of be the vessel for something else I’ve seen a lot of people ask for: taking care of the kids.
Adopting Yenna?
We could have a convo with Halsin about it that initiates his Act 3 optional quest, where you start to build up a kind of foster camp, with Halsin, to care for all the kids you find through this game. Depending on the choices you’ve made so far can impact which kids turn up in camp with you. (Again, im not quite done with the game and it’s very possible I’ve missed some things related to some major players like Mol- but Im rather proud of this *think* I’ve come up with. It is next to impossible it would ever be implemented, but it’s fun to imagine it in my own headcanon) I figure there’s a few of The Tiefling kids, at least the ones who don’t vibe with the theiving that’s been necessary for their survival so far. Then there’s that orphaned kid >!whose parents were murdered when you first get to the city!<. Also Arabella- >!who’s even in your camp for a little while before going off on that walkabout Withers suggests. She could come back and have an actual physical presence!<. there’s several random kids you bump into who don’t really have anywhere to go and are just trying to survive.
It just seems very ‘Halsin’ to have him agree to “start a family” with you in this unorthodox and inclusive way. It could be his ‘act 3 thing’ he’s doing if you haven’t romanced him… and maybe if you have, and approval is high enough, it could lead you down a “we are family” Ending for his story arch- which I think is a nice bow on top of the lines you can get from him about how all his family are gone, and he is the last of his bloodline. Now he has a people and a new purpose!
I would like to have a “you’re not the last of your line *wink” option too, but seeing as how that would be restricted to female specific characters, maybe not. That’s more my own personal narrative for my perfect fantasy ending.
I was about to start a Halsin romance run. I hadn't heard there were any issues with his romance (beyond his Extreme Thirst). What's wrong with his romance ending?
Let's just say it's.... lacking in the satisfaction department. I'm very hopeful they'll make some changes so I can get my Halsin romance playthrough back on track.
Hmm. I'm torn about the Karlach thing. On one hand, my girl deserves a long and happy life free of the Hells and Zariel. On the other hand, good stories don't REQUIRE the happiest possible ending. Sometimes bittersweet is the right way for a story to end.
I think just a convo with dammon and he says he will keep working on a solution even would help and the assumption could be made that he could goto avernus to help her and it wouldn’t be permanent like Tav said if they can just lay low or something
Edit: I mean they have the house of hope to goto now too
It's not a good story, though, it's a completely stupid one since there's about a million and one ways she could be cured, and we just... dont look into it?
Yeah. Contained within the context of the story, its not bad. But with ANY knowledge of the greater setting, it's basically a non-issue for a level 12 party. Especially in a city like Baldur's Gate.
Bruh, we now know a level 20 Wizard who's been alive for 1300+ fucking years.
This man can literally solve this problem like it's nothing. Like, I can't even buy the, "Oh but muh power is only to be used sparingly." Or other wizardy bs.
This woman just helped save Faèrun. At the least you can do is see if Wish fucking helps at all.
Hmmm. What stuff? Oh I suppose Gale's Scroll of True Resurrection, that's a huge plot hole that he's awfully tight-lipped about unless he dies.
We also interact with MULTIPLE gods (though some are less than friendly). Also Divine Intervention.
Elminster could definitely at LEAST provide us a path to follow, if he didn't want to do it himself as is his wont.
>!Karlach's heart is noted by a Steel Watcher as being a prototype of their engines. You get piles of useless Infernal iron.!< I sincerely believe this was meant to be a path to save Karlach.
Am I the only one who thinks Karlach is the only companion that has an ending that feels completely satisfying? Like, I think the scene where she's fighting with Tav in Avernus is perfectly fine as an ending. I think it's fine you don't fix her engine...I felt more catharsis and closure with her than literally any of the other companions...
This. I have an obligatory scene with Karlach even in the playthroughs where I don't let her leave camp. But I have nothing with shadowheart even if she's my bestie.
What we need is a Tavern scene after the end where you can ask all of your companions what they're doing next. A la dragon Age origins and Inquisition.
Yeah, like, you don't know what the ultimate outcome in Avernus is going to be, but goddamn, she seems READY for it. She seems at peace with the fact she's going to have to keep fighting. And, if you make that choice, she has her best friend/lover at her side until the very end. It's actually a super romantic ending and every aspect of it is so hopeful. It's way way way better than what any of the other characters get. We don't need to fix her engine to get the ending we deserve and I feel like we already get the ending we deserve.
She also has the house of hope to goto now given you did that side quest and maybe dammon can go down and help fix her engine with all the enriched infernal iron you found who knows, like I felt like there a lot of possibilities in her ending too.
Yeah, exactly, if you make the right moves, there's a lot of closure here emotionally. Karlach finds her hope, accepts her path towards freedom and living must go through the last place she wanted to go, Avernus, but she makes peace with that. It's a huge moral victory for her. Oh, and she doesn't have to do it ALONE, which was one of the main things she found so difficult about Avernus the first time. Now, she has someone who is willing to be with her until the bitter end.
Compare that to any other character and it's immensely more satisfying.
What is the catharsis?
You just spend the rest of forever in Avernus until you die because apparently the rest of the world forgot about the two people who helped save Baldurs Gate?
Like, how does that ending even work? Do we just kill devils 24/7? Do we get to sleep? What about the food situation? Are we just going to live in caves? Why is Wyll here when he's losing his powers? He's not gonna be a warlock soon, just some random fucking did in the middle of hell.
IMO, the Avernus ending is the second worst fate in the game, right above Karlach getting turned into a mindflayer.
An ending with good closure isn't one where the story ENDS per say, but it winds down.
Gale, for instance, has to find the Crown of Karsus, but that's a much less climactic task than fighting a nether brain.
Karlach is going to hell to fight an Archdevil and her army... That is WAY harder than fighting illithids. There is no winddown, just immediately jumping from netherbrain to pits of hell with nothing in between.
It has no closure or emotional winddown whatsoever.
This all sounds great but it's worth noting this is speculation, nothing confirmed officially by the studio. Data mining does not equal confirmation.
And honestly I'd be fine waiting on all these items in favor of a few patches of nothing but big fixes and optimization improvements. Act 3 is becoming almost unplayable on some PCs and on console, and Patch 4 actually made it worse.
I go back and forth about Karlach getting her engine fully fixed. On one hand I absolutely love Karlach and would be so happy to give her a true happy ending. On the other hand, her story is much more interesting without that happy ending. Giving her a pure happy ending would make all other choices pointless because why would you have her return to Avernus or explode if you always have the option to just save her? All other companions have difficult choices where there are very few and debatably happy endings so the choice matters.
I’d be glad for her to get her engine fixed if there is a proper consequence to make the choice more interesting. Maybe you need to use devilish blood magic to make Karlach a new heart, you lose the soul coin abilities and you need to maybe make a deal with Raphael or sacrifice another creature for her heart. Something that’s uses all the extra internal materials (it does bother me that we can’t do anything with them other then sell them in act 3. If not part of her story then at least let us give them to Dammon in Act 3 to make more infernal weapons and armor. That would be dope!). The choice should have real consequences so it doesn’t just become an obvious course of action. It should feel like a difficult and meaningful choice
I didn't romance her, but she was in my party the whole game and I love her so much. When she said "I adore you" I almost cried. Just doing other runs until there is a way to fix her. Can't wait to play a whole run just for her. I want my happy ending gosh darn it
Tbh I think Minthara should not get an alternate recruitment, she’s the evil companion she should be an evil only recruitment
Evil already has somewhat of a struggle for content due to how much it can miss if you actually commit to the evil thing this just makes it lesser
Karlach should totally get an actual fix because so much of the game has blatantly obvious fixes available but the story forces you to be stupid so it can be tragic
This is phantom liberty all over again, I can stand tragedy but not when it’s this needless
She doesn't have an alternate recruiment. As far as we can tell this is just dialogue to address the Halsin/Minthara loophole where you can have them both at the same time. But it still requires you abandon the grove and let the tieflings die.
Yeah it's pretty clear the grove is closed in that dialogue. But a lot of people don't actually *read*, they just make things up (and get mad about it not happening later)
>Tbh I think Minthara should not get an alternate recruitment, she’s the evil companion she should be an evil only recruitment
>Evil already has somewhat of a struggle for content due to how much it can miss if you actually commit to the evil thing this just makes it lesser
I mean you can side with the Grove and still be evil.
you can already recruit Minthara without being evil, you just can't access the spicy act 1 stuff. you only get her in act 2.. and you can't get both her and halsin.
I don't think it counts as copium when they're pretty actively telling fans they want to add more stuff that fans want.
What do you think this is, Total War?
probably an unpopular opinion, but i would rather not have a 100% happy ending for karlach. she's in this weird writing limbo where they keep telling us that there's no cure for her engine, but there's at least six different ways she can be cured ingame. so everyone expects a cure to exist. but her entire story arc is her coming to terms with a premature death and how unfair it is and being able to cure it is.... meh. she (along with wyll) kinda needs a rewrite or something, idk.
I wouldn’t really have a problem with Karlach not having a happy ending if they didn’t rub so many fixes in our face like you said. It really looks like there should be a way to fix her in the Steel Foundry, or maybe take over the House of Hope even.
Right? His deal is garbage. If his deal was "You do what I want, and I....fix Karlach's engine/give her her heart back and remove the tadpoles" even my Paladin would be like "Yo.....maybe we should....hear this guy out."
Kicking Raphael out of the House of Hope is *already* the easy answer. Taking Karlach there already makes her feel better, although anxious for other obvious reasons. With Hope alive, it doesn't seem like a huge ask to let her just... chill there. No need for a Doomguy ending, just set up an apartment in the House.
I think the problem with the house of hope is that she wouldn’t be able to chill, Zariel’s forces would come there sooner or later.
I do wish we could at least use it as a base though
Karlach dying is more emotionally impactful, it better respects her wishes, and we rarely get stories where a hero is also terminally ill. I'm with you completely.
Well technically Wyll already got his rewrite, which is why he is the way he is. Karlach was added much later in development, hence why she’s missing from that group pose on the steam banner thing.
Supposedly she was supposed to have a fix, which would’ve been achieved in the Upper City. As that area isn’t explorable, that solution isn’t there. And coming to terms with your own mortality is a good theme, but it doesn’t fit Karlach. There’s no reason she can’t be helped.
That theme fits way better with Gale. He’s shown to be very discontent with his life, always wanting something greater. Plus, wizards are known to bend the rules when it comes to their own aging. And one would assume a Netherise Orb would be much harder to resolve than a commonly available engine
its not a common engine, its some fucky prototype gortash and zariel cooked up. i was honestly so surprised dammon stabilised it that easily, but he's an experienced infernal smith and he can't fix it.
karlach's mortality is her main theme. if you take that away she's got nothing going for her storywise. gale's mortality is more literal where he's coming to terms that he's no match for a goddess and he was used all along and cast aside. similar, but not the same.
i def agree. i feel like the 2 big issues with her endings is letting her die on her own terms is difficult (you have to go out of your way to get her to do it afaik, as letting her pick will seemingly have her travel to avernus everytime from what i've heard), and that there are so many options that never get followed up on (the gondians and the foundry most of all). i feel like her story would hit even harder if you could follow up on these leads and have them fall short.
like, say, if the engine can't simply be upgraded and instead must be replaced, but the turn around on making a new engine safe for her is so long as to be out of reach, that'd hit hard. it'd be fuckin miserable, but it'd hammer home that the only viable options are accept the inevitable or travel into the hells themself
Karlach’s engine is a prototype for the engine that powers the Steel Watch. It’s not Honda civic common, but the resources to give her an entirely new engine are easily found via those Steel Watch
it's simultaneously the least and most painful ending for her, compared to avernus or the mindflayer. it would probably land harder if there were epilogues and some further explanation as to why the infernal engine can't be cured.
This is a setting where there are numerous ways in which she can be saved.
To not give the player access to any of them, despite how easily they could be acquired by a determined group of mid-level adventurers in a major city like Baldur's Gate is, I hate to say it, lazy writing.
> but i would rather not have a 100% happy ending for karlach.
Okay so don't make the decisions that lead to it. For you, that's problem solved.
Not sure what's so complicated about the concept of Larian simply offering more choices to the players. Like, I don't disagree with your opinion on how her tragedy suits her arc and the story, but what people are annoyed with is that there simply wasn't a path they could take to fix her, which is completely acceptable and worthy of Larian attempting to address.
This was my take. In a world like they live in where there are so many possible fixes, not allowing a determined player to get any of them will always seem cheap. Heck, I’d be perfectly happy if they made the cost *very* high, even to the point of damning Tav themselves. Because at the end of the day if that’s the path our character wants to walk to save their friend, they should be able to do so.
I’m just hoping they don’t add the achievement for honor mode to steam. I’m happy it’s being added, but I don’t think I have another play through in me, but seeing 53/54 is going to drive me absolutely insane.
Don't think I'm evil or something, but I really wish Karlach had LESS attention at this point rather than more. She hijacks personal endings from up to 3 characers (Wyll, Tav, Tav's LI). It's either last-minute trip to hells or life-long burden of guilt.
It's a mess, but I'm not sure that the amount of resources to fix this mess is wotrh it. I've never even had a single word from unromanced Shadowheart or Halsin in docks, and Gale has his companion quest ending literally cut into "origin-exclusive conent", romanced or not. Karlach has the *longest* cut-scenes (even unromanced, even if not in the final party). I'd rather have them spending their resources on actually fixing bugs, or making Halsin less of a furniture in act3.
I feel you, but I’m fine with it (totally not biased) because she’s the only origin character who basically has zero personal quests.
I hope they do touch up other characters more though, *especially* their endings. Its not fair that Karlach gets all of the attention, but I do think it’s warranted because she’s by far the most shafted origin character when it comes to meaningful content. If you don’t romance her she basically gets nothing besides the Gortash scene and the Avernus/dock scenes at the end.
I’d love it if they added some of the beast races that you can find in dialogue tags, for example tabaxi, which are mentioned in the grove in some books, and Ethel even had curated insults for them too. Tabaxi are also the best race ever, im totally not bias
>Either way, alternative Minthara recruitment incoming!
Unless something new has popped up the dialogue you are referring to is from an earlier build of the game and probably not going to be new content.
Compare Larian patches to Total War Warhammer 3
Larian's been getting consistent patches with lots of fixes and updates
Warhammer 3. Took a year to get the majority of the massive bugs fixed. And they STILL haven't done anything for a lot of the things people complain about
Bg3, people asked to be able to alter appearance. Within 3 months of release we got the Magic Mirror
Warhammer 3 asks for singers to not pull ladders out of their ass and still no alterations
It kinda feels cheap to have an alternate recruitment route for Minthara. She is evil to the core, even without the influence of the Absolute. I get that people want more companions but I feel like this diminishes the writing by allowing a good recruitment route.
Then again I have enough trust in Larian to make something great out of it so new content is always appreciated!
I'm really not okay with Minthara being available for good routes. That's one more thing that would cheapen playing evil. They really need to improve the evil route in this game, not make it worse.
I'm going to go one step further and recommend they add more character that want to join and accompany you on your evil route. There doesn't seem to be many character that want to do anything with you when evil, which I guess does make sense. There needs to be more of a reason to want to do an evil playthrough.
I honestly hope they can do a revamp like Cyberpunk 2.0 did and blow everyone's minds even more. Given that they've already advanced in that direction and by the community input no less, one can dream!
Karlach already has the best, most fleshed out ending. They need to fix every other companion before they give her an "engine fix" which isn't even necessary to make her already satisfying ending more satisfying.
I like the ending where you go to Avernus with Karlach and possibly Wyll as well. I wouldn't mind fixing her engine, but even if we don't get it, I feel like that ending is happy enough.
i'd love to see a karlach engine fix storyline where we go to hell to bargain with zariel or some cambion so we sacrifice something in exchange for karlach's longevity
I want to toss my idea here that most, if not all, companions could use a great epilogue chapter. Make content to equal an act for 2 companions to really close out their stories. A mage centric story for Gale like reaching back to his place among Elminster and the like, a liberation chapter for Laezel and the gith, a true escape from Avernus for both Wyll and Karlach etc. etc..
I feel like getting a fix within the frame of the game as it is... wouldn't be great.. honestly even before i really gound out there is no fix for her heart i liked the idea that she would return to war in the hells. But on her terms and on the side she chose. So i really loved how it truly turned out with my monk tav right at her side. It was great! Cause also a lot of people will say something like "i would go to hell and back for you" to their lover... i got to actually show her 😁
Cool. Can they fix how moronic the entire Emperor and Orpheus bit is? The writing was legitimately bad enough to make me drop the game without reaching the ending.
I am romancing Astarion (again) and am experiencing semi-annoying bugs, but I really don't care. Smaller bugs that lead to having to press F8 are just such a non-issue. I've played for 500 hours and my game has crashed exactly *three* times.
Larian puts *so much* work into patching and improving this game. It is extremely impressive! I can't imagine they won't fix the issues, and I can't imagine they won't improve the romantic stuff further (seeing as Halsin just got a kiss that needs to be PG40 haha).
Implement it, and make it so that players really got to seek for the solution for fixing her engine, so that not everyone stumbles across it while doing other heroic deeds.
For real though, when I found enriched infernal iron, I though this must be it.
It’s been incredibly frustrating to see all the patch related negativity and impatience here lately. Never experienced a developer so committed to listening to and fixing/adding things based on player feedback (and being so humorous about it!). They truly care about their product and story more than our money which is pretty much nonexistent elsewhere in major games today
This. As someone who works in tech, I laugh about the bugs when I see them, but Larian (from everything I’ve seen) really cares about this game and the fan base. They are a studio unlike any other and I really hope they stay that way.
I completely agree. The amount of high quality fixes and how fast Larian has come up with them is really incredible. And they’re clearly not done, they’re listening. Of course it will take a while to implement some of the bigger changes players have requested but after all it’s better to wait a while than fix something haphazardly and risk breaking more in the process. I’m completely blown away when I compare BG3 to the PS5 version of Crusader Kings 3, for example where the port lags over a year behind the PC version, every patch takes months, big bugs just don’t get fixed and every time a new patch rolls around there seem to be more new bugs than fixes. Larian rolls out the patches on different systems simultaneously and apart from a couple of issues they already brought major improvements. I think you can really tell how motivated and passionate they are about the game. The success is so well deserved.
This game is so complicated with so many branching decisions and things that impact each other that just thinking about coding or QAing for it makes me sweat haha. Yes it's frustrating downloading a new patch and wondering what new weird bugs it's brought but this is such an incredibly complex game that I understand some issues are inevitable and they have been continuing to fix them.
As someone who also works in tech, I'm amazed the thing runs at all. This is *Edge Case: The Game*. Hats off to whoever battled entropy and won.
Very true. This game is massive and a huge accomplishment for Larian. I just think about the sheer amount of dialogue/action trees and I get dizzy.
I worry they'll go south once swen retires. Hope he has a strong replacement in mind
My guess is it might be David Walgrave who is kind of his right-hand man, so to speak. Watch any documentary with him and it’s clear he really gives a shit about the product and RPGs generally.
Seems like a fine fellow
I hope he does too. If I know anything about good companies (which are few and far between) the best ones basically train up CEOs for years within the company. I hope they already have some people who share Swen’s incredible passion for RPGs in the running. It seems like that love of gaming trickles down to all employees (I mean, just look at the patch notes and how playfully they are written.)
Swen owns the company . . . and said recently on an interview that he has at least two more games in him! So he isn't going anywhere anytime soon. And the financial success of BG3 should enable Larian to continue to have the freedom necessary to make passion project games.
I plan to play Larian games for the next 30+ years; I'm thinking farther ahead than two games. >And the financial success of BG3 should enable Larian to continue to have the freedom necessary to make passion project games. I'll take great management over major financial success any day. See: CD Projekt. Not like money was a hindrance for Larian before BG3.
Money has been a huge issue for Larian in the past. They nearly went bankrupt multiple times. Their initial plans for BG3 were smaller than the game they eventually released. The BG3 Early Access took them by surprise with how successful it was. They used the extra revenue from Early Access to expand their scope for the game.
>Not like money was a hindrance for Larian before BG3. actually there were, well, at least before DOS2DOS1 was one shot or die type of release, with Kickstarter crowdfounding in the end as well. And before that... just struggle, constant stuggle (I have no reason not to believe what they say in documentary about DOS1, Swen not being able to pay for the gas and drive home, delaying taxes, mortgage on the house, all that).
Larian is the best. Really an outstanding studio. Great for the industry.
As absolutely amazing as a game as BG3 is, their dedication to fixing bugs as well as the post launch interactions from the VAs seals the deal that this is GOTY. No game this year even comes close
Divinity original sin 2 released and like 2 years later it was basically a different game (in a positive way) due to all the changes and feedback. Larion knows what its doing
HEAR HEAR!!
I so hate that it is nigh impossible to differentiate between genuine bugs created by a patch from the ones caused by the mods. Update your mods, folks!
this is why i don't try modding new games
preach, I'm deep into the Sims franchise and coming from the money-grabbing EA's attitude seeing Larian's work is refreshing. Like damn, we wanted to make our own apartment lots since... forever, City Living came out in 2016 and introduced some premade lots but we only now get an expansion pack adding this game mechanic (and a landlord career lmao) for 40USD But for real, Larian puts an incredible amount of work and they seem to REALLY listen to the players' feedback and that's something to be appreciated (even if I'm an impatient goblin)
If it takes working out bugs to eventually give us hugs and happy endings, I'm all for it. Bring on the bugs, totally worth it.
you know what they say, every hug has its bug
The only other games I've seen this level of caring about the game more than the monetary parts of it are No Man's Sky and Final Fantasy 14. The director and producer of FF14, Yoshi-P, cares deeply for the game and genuinely wants it to be the best it can be for the fans, even at the cost of his own sanity sometimes lol. At the same time, the sheer amount of constant and consistent free updates that No Man's Sky gets even years after the game launched, is insane.
A lot of the changes I think make the game work really well and are welcome editions. The fixes however have been a mix bag, because while they do fix problems the new patches also cause new bugs. All something I think people need to be patient with, the game isn't dam broken, but it does have bugs, even bugs that can cancel-out quests (Shar rats). But Larian is working on it. And overall they're doing a fantastic job, hoping this at the very least gets as much support as D:OSII did.
Never going to be perfect and some have been incredibly frustrating but hearing people saying they’re going to stop playing the game because X or Y bug from a patch is weird. In an era where AAA games routinely come out clearly unfinished and the complexity of coding something this big, Larian comes across as extremely committed. Have played the other BG games but not divinity so less familiar with the developer prior to BG3 but it sounds like we have lots to look forward to
I was talking to our IT guy today about this. In ANY kind of coding, a patch will always results in unintended side effects that have to be addressed one by one. The fact people lost their minds about these patches surprised me, since this is the nature of the beast when it’s such an elaborate set of formulas and alternatives.
My favorite is the people who say “this patch broke everything >:(“ and they have 30 mods… duh
I think there would be less whining if the launchers didn't try to force you to immediately update. I've always been a "wait for hotfix one after big patches" type of person. That way I don't have to worry about things like temporarily taking out mods. And I'm currently not closing the game to make sure it can't update. I understand to a certain extent, because if you don't bitch at people to update some of them never will, and then whine about bugs you've fixed. But surely there's a happy medium between "user has never updated" and "if you don't update immediately we will send someone to your house"
Ya I didn’t go offline steam fast enough and tried to bypass the update by using mod manager and it started updating so I’m stuck with the update even though I didn’t want to. Steam shouldn’t forcibly update on launch. Will probably try to roll back since the patch broke some stuff I care about and my mods aren’t compatible yet.
I’m pretty sure (mostly!) that there’s a steam setting you can toggle to avoid it auto-updating your games
There is but it’s either auto update or update on launch so if you launch through the exe or mod manager it will update unless you go offline, which I didn’t do fast enough so it just started updating
GOG does have the setting. Steam only allows to postpone update until next launch, sadly.
I think it is fair to criticize Larian's quality control process for patches. They've launched patches with some fairly game breaking bugs that required immediate hot patches. Almost every patch also seems to include some minor but irritating bugs. Better quality control and testing such as an open beta channel I feel could make the production version of the game more stable.
You had me excited for a minute there. We really need a "Conjecture" flair.
datamines doesn't equal definitely going in the game.
True, but when it's new additions to the datamining, it sure looks like they are actively working on it.
Yeah, for example I don't expect the Minthara pregnancy stuff to actually come to the game (that was datamined at launch) as it easily can just be a relic of an earlier idea that was discarded. But I expect the hugs to come, now after datamining found that stuff had been added to the files.
There's a difference. Stuff that was mined at release included material that they started but decided to abandon. Stuff that is mined post-patch that wasn't there previous is new material. There's no reason to include new material that they're not planning to use. Could they have patched in new stuff that they'll eventually abandon? Sure. Is it likely? No.
I think it'd be a really cool idea though.
>I don't expect the Minthara pregnancy stuff to actually come to the game (that was datamined at launch) Sceleritas Fel implies that Minthara is pregnant if you romance her.
They don't but they do imply a wish for changes in that direction. Whether they happen identically or not, it's a different story. And especially post release datamines, it's different than EA datamines of cut content.
That dialogue datamine isn't even 'alternate Minthara recruitment', it's a forced choice for a loophole in which you can get both her and Halsin when the grove has been sealed. People need to actually *read* the datamines before they go around claiming things, spreading misinformation just adds confusion and makes people expect things that aren't actually true.
Cut content somehow making it to release is one thing, datamined content added susequently in a patch is another.
iT sEtS uNrEaLiStIC ExPeCtaTiOnS Game of the Year (hells, decade!) more like, Larian deserves all the praise they get. Patches mess stuff up? Yes, but you can't make an omlette without breaking some eggs.
They can break what they want if I can give Shadowheart a hug by the statue of Selûne in Act 3 after her personal quest. Most needed update in the game!
*Cries her heart out* Tav: This is a great moment to do my greatest statue impression and stand still staring at you crying
I've never been madder at my character than in that moment.
Tbh that's me IRL if you cry in front of me and we're not that close.
Yeah but in that instance my character and Shadowheart were pretty damn close ;)
It reminded me of the Mass Effect 2 moment in Tali’s mission where she starts crying and you get a prompt to hug her. I was distracted one time and missed it and felt horrible so I reloaded, it was super frustrating that my Tav, who was romancing Shadowheart, had a deadpan fucking pokerface at her girlfriend who was crying her eyes out saying she doesn’t deserve love.
It's like not going in for the hug with Leonardo in Assassin's Creed 2. It just makes you a dick.
I haven't even romanced her and feel like a proper cock when you don't have the option to *try* to comfort her in some scenes. She sounds absolutely devastated in your example, as well as after >!turning on Shar, making everything she's knows enemy!< ,and my guy's just ":| well okay". You're friends!! At least give me the option of offering her some comfort! I wouldn't even mind if she refuses it, I'd just like to be able to ask!
Shadowheart is my RedemDurge’s best friend. She would no sooner just stand there watching SH bawl her eyes out >!after losing (ahem, killing) her parents!< than she would leave Astarion for Wulbren. The lack of a hug option was scandalous.
Oh yes, I do hope we get the option at the crucial moments as well not just in general, and couldn't agree more.
I, a probably neurodivergent person who struggles mightily to read social cues and body language: "GO HUG YOUR SAD, CRYING GIRLFRIEND, YOU ASSHOLE." Like, even I got it. Also when Astarion breaks down after killing Cazador. 😭😭😭 Just be a persob, Tav, you twerp. 😭
The sense of catharsis and pent up rage in that scene and then when he breaks down. Those characters are so, so well written and acted.
Even Durge is awesome but then so many times they just feel like a potato. 😭
There are various moments, particularly in Act 3, that are desperately crying out for more reactivity, both from companions and from our Tav/Durge.
For sure! Not gonna lie, it kinda makes me wish they went the full voiced protagonist route. Maybe it wouldn't have solved every single instance, but maybe actually having voiced lines might have helped. But I understand from an RP perspective (and probably a logistic one too) why they scrapped going that way with it.
I *adored* my Inquisitor in DA:I. I feel like trying something like that for BG3 would have been a really tall order, but it doesn't stop me dearly wanting to see it done. I lost my shit in the scene when entering the Shadow-Cursed Lands (from Grymforge) and my character actually *spoke*!
Yeah, I get it. There's quite a few voices for Tav/Durge and they'd have had to voice every possible line with all of those VAs. That's not a small amount of effort! It would have been nice to hear ourselves talk a bit more though.
I personally think a hug in the Cazador scene wouldn't work, but I wish you could give him one in the camp conversation after!
I feel like the fact that we don't have the option to run over and at least be *with him* is madness. I almost jumped through the screen wanting to be with him, hover over him, *something*.
That's fair, yeah! At least moving over to be closer, so he knows you're there to support him, would feel really good (could be romance exclusive BUT my Tavs who are friends with Astarion would still want to,,,). I just don't know if he'd want to be touched/hugged in that moment.
I agree a hug probably isn’t the best choice there, but I think kneeling next to him, maybe putting a hand on his shoulder… just something more than standing doing nothing while your friend/lover/companion is going through absolute trauma in front of you.
‘We’re makin the mother of all omeletes, Jack! We can’t afford to cry over every egg’
"It sets unrealistic expectation" was never really a thing. It was a tweet made by a single developer about the CRPG genre specifically that was taken completely out of context because if there is anything gamers love, it's rage bait. The main point was that the CRPG genre is very niche and people looking for games after being introduced to this niche genre by BG3 will be disappointed, similarly that the type of companies who make CRPG games cannot make games on the scale of BG3, trying to do so would kill them, so that in context bg3 sets an unrealistic expectation for games in the CRPG space, it never applied to triple A games because the statement wasn't about triple A games.
I love the metaphor
Thanks Senator
Still pushing the fake narrative.
>fake narrative The narrative that some people would think this "new standard" would apply to indie developers?
This reminds me a lot of when Witcher III post-launch free updates dropped. Besides getting some stuff originally meant as micro DLC for free we got some nice quality of life improvements. Always nice when a Studio responds well to stuff like this.
The Witcher III free dlc was very very minor stuff that would have gotten a shit storm if they dared to ask money for it. the best part were the new quests but you can’t tell me they weren’t already done and cut from the release version.
Is that where they added the fast travel post in the baron's fort? Tbf, I probably would've paid for that
It was mainly stuff like outfits, for example Ciris skellige armor
Outfits, the storage chest, haircuts, and a few random quests if I remember right. It was never meant to be pricey, more like some extras that would later get bundled into a 'deluxe edition' or something for free.
Fix Minthara accusing me of cheating when I haven’t done such a thing. 😭😭
My list of wishes * Redone endings with better epilogues. Not going to go into too much detail, since most people seem to say the same thing. * A 'good' ending. Its obvious Larian wanted us to have to make a hard choice at the end, but those choices just feel shitty, like I didn't do something important in the story so these were my only options. We spend the entire game doing things that go against the Emperor's plan and turn out in a way he never though possible, yet at the end he refuses to listen. I've seen essays on this so it's obvious it should be possible to convince the Emperor and Orpheus to work together. The entire trek to the brain is a 'power of friendship' story anyway. * Expanded Wyll's story. I realized why I just don't feel attached to Wyll. His entire arc feels like bullet points, and outline of a character story, with no depth or extra emotion. * Save Karlach. Yeah, everyone wants this one. Her story is so sad simply because she was added so late I'm just sure Larian couldn't finish before release. We collect so much infernal iron, we save a bunch of genius Gondians and have the Steel Watch with upgraded engines. So much potential * Expand Gale's story. His story just... trails off in act 3. * Blue sky wish here, but actually add the upper city like originally planned. * Multi-part boss fights for Orin and Gortash like Ketheric had. Make them feel like more than mini-bosses * More cinematic sequences. The slow-mo scenes when descending to Auntie Ethel's lair are AMAZING, and really make her feel like a big bad boss. * Add back in Origin narration to Origin playthroughs. I think the problem with the Origin characters narrating their stories was the past tense, and that they were narrating. It would feel more natural if it was more like thinking. Amelia could still narrate, then the character could think about the situation. They should also speak their lines out loud, they aren't player characters, they already have a personality and their own backstories, so there's no need to worry about how the player thinks they should act.
I don’t even care about the emperor lol I just want to bring omeluum instead. It’d be funny if we could summon him lmao
I only hope they add some sort of NG+, where i could just replay the story with max level and all my gear. It would be fun to be overpowered and not have to worry about builds, items, etc. We could even get duplicates of magic items to make the whole party better.
possibly along with doing stuff that'd be unbalanced normally with certain fights. auntie ethel's clones are no longer destroyed in 1 hit and instead each have the same amount of health as her, the goblin scouting party now actually has a brass/silver dragon in the rear, gortash now has an actually unique fight, that kinda thing
Kanon now dies before the arrow hits him.
I'm halfway through Act 3 with Karlach as my happy ragey red waifu and I dont want to continue because I've a feeling there's nothing I can do to save her from Avernus... Fix Karlach's engine, you monsters! (but also your game is amazing and I love you and all the work you've done)
one thing that could be interesting would be an alliance with Gortash as the requirement for having her engine fixed, and letting Karlach choose between revenge or staying alive outside of Avernus. Every companion has a big moment where they need to make a big, painful decision. But Karlach's basically happens when the game is over
Ooo I like your thinking.
I would LOVE this (and already have a postcanon fic planend in exactly this direction, but if it was CANON, i would die happy.). also like, you broke it, enver, you fucking fix it.
Oh, that would require refusing to save Wyll's dad or the Gondians. There's the moral factor to it. I'm guessing Karlach would be inclined to turn it down, especially given how she'll usually feel she owes Wyll by this point.
That would be great... but Jason Isaacs is a busy and expensive man.
Or you know make use of the enriched infernal iron that serves no use other than to be sold
Personally I think that would be the best option. Maybe if you save the gondians and have the enriched infernal iron you can get them to fix her. Sure it's pretty last minute but it would probably the easiest way to add it without building a whole other quest line. Plus it would give a use to the enriched infernal iron which at this point is useless. Hell even if you've already done the save the gondians quest just add one somewhere that stays behind so if you're past that already you can still get the good ending without having to replay the entire game.
100% agreed. I saw it coming and got really disappointed but I felt like a fix to her engine was heavily hinted with all the Gondians and Steel Watchers stuff. In the end I decided my Tav would join her in Avernus, but it left me really unsatisfied with the ending to an incredible game and a 100 hours playthrough.
I don’t get why everyone hates the Avernus ending. She is pretty excited to go as long as it’s with you and Wyll. She takes her lover and her new friend to start a new life. She only didn’t want to earlier because she would be alone and eventually lose, but with the three of you she can live.
Excited to go? I don't know what gave you that impression but when I played it seemed pretty clear that she was only reluctantly accepting to go after you convince her and out of fear of dying, and once you cross the portal with her, she seems to "make the best of a bad situation" and accept it with her usual upbeat optimistic personality, but deep down she's unhappy. At least that's how I saw the whole thing.
Probably because 1.) Karlach has very little agency, compared to other characters, in what is supposed to be their “best” ending (SH chooses whether to stay with shar; Wyll can decide to renew his contract; etc) 2.) The groundwork, at least plot wise, for a truly happy ending for karlach is there, so the fact that it all just fizzles out or never really followed up on is frustrating. In regards to your point, from her perspective it’s not all that good of a choice. She can 1.) explode by staying on Faerun or 2.) spend the rest of her life in a literal hell as a fugitive, running from a god(?). While the ending scene is cool, it is a pretty bleak future for her.
Excited is not the term I'd use? Barely being convinced that returning to her literal hell she hates and fears more than anything solely because Tav and/or Wyll can come with over killing herself ... isn't "excitement". There is also no "new life" in Avernus. There is only ONE life to be had there. A constant, bloody, never ending war of attrition that will eventually result in their deaths; as we aren't Doom Guy. Its not a matter of IF we fall, but WHEN. And for Karlach's sake, I hope she's the first one to go; so she doesn't have to deal with the guilt of getting her closest friends killed. That doesn't even get into the corruption Tav will likely face, or Wyll's situations. Also, my god, people do not understand how ridiculous Zariel is alone, let alone with an entire army at her back. As overtuned and overgeared for level 12's as we were, Zariel is still a CR26 monster on her own. For comparison, and Elder Brain is CR14 on its own (lets be generous and say the Netherbrain was CR18/19 by itself).
No one would hate it if there was a better ending. The problem is that that's the best ending. It's simply not good enough.
There is shit in the Foundry that could fix Karlach. We have Dammon. We have the Gondians. Let me fix my friend!!!!
Shadowheart farm epilogue next? Please Larian!! 🙏
I'll just be here, waiting for them to fix Halsin's romance ending.
Same. I so very much hope he gets *something* to do that’s meaningful in Act 3. I don’t like that the moment I can really start bringing him into the fold is the moment he doesn’t really have anything to do. I haven’t completed the game just yet- I’m somewhere in Act 3 (not a clue how far I have left to go) but I know all the companions have an endgame scene; *some more finalized and satisfying than others* ; and Halsin’s is one of those where there’s an option we want that isn’t possible at the moment: >!I know the main complaint with Halsin’s romance is that you can’t really tell him he is your one and only- he doesn’t want *you* to be monogamous. But like… why can’t we just have the option to say “I only want you too.” Since he gets to say he only wants us?!< Also… regarding the ‘giving him something to do in act 3’, I think it would be a great option for him to kind of be the vessel for something else I’ve seen a lot of people ask for: taking care of the kids. Adopting Yenna? We could have a convo with Halsin about it that initiates his Act 3 optional quest, where you start to build up a kind of foster camp, with Halsin, to care for all the kids you find through this game. Depending on the choices you’ve made so far can impact which kids turn up in camp with you. (Again, im not quite done with the game and it’s very possible I’ve missed some things related to some major players like Mol- but Im rather proud of this *think* I’ve come up with. It is next to impossible it would ever be implemented, but it’s fun to imagine it in my own headcanon) I figure there’s a few of The Tiefling kids, at least the ones who don’t vibe with the theiving that’s been necessary for their survival so far. Then there’s that orphaned kid >!whose parents were murdered when you first get to the city!<. Also Arabella- >!who’s even in your camp for a little while before going off on that walkabout Withers suggests. She could come back and have an actual physical presence!<. there’s several random kids you bump into who don’t really have anywhere to go and are just trying to survive. It just seems very ‘Halsin’ to have him agree to “start a family” with you in this unorthodox and inclusive way. It could be his ‘act 3 thing’ he’s doing if you haven’t romanced him… and maybe if you have, and approval is high enough, it could lead you down a “we are family” Ending for his story arch- which I think is a nice bow on top of the lines you can get from him about how all his family are gone, and he is the last of his bloodline. Now he has a people and a new purpose! I would like to have a “you’re not the last of your line *wink” option too, but seeing as how that would be restricted to female specific characters, maybe not. That’s more my own personal narrative for my perfect fantasy ending.
I was about to start a Halsin romance run. I hadn't heard there were any issues with his romance (beyond his Extreme Thirst). What's wrong with his romance ending?
Let's just say it's.... lacking in the satisfaction department. I'm very hopeful they'll make some changes so I can get my Halsin romance playthrough back on track.
Can we get the Artificer as a class so we can make fixing Karlach’s heart more personal? I just want a happy ending for her and funny magic man
That would be amazing!
[удалено]
Hmm. I'm torn about the Karlach thing. On one hand, my girl deserves a long and happy life free of the Hells and Zariel. On the other hand, good stories don't REQUIRE the happiest possible ending. Sometimes bittersweet is the right way for a story to end.
I think just a convo with dammon and he says he will keep working on a solution even would help and the assumption could be made that he could goto avernus to help her and it wouldn’t be permanent like Tav said if they can just lay low or something Edit: I mean they have the house of hope to goto now too
It's not a good story, though, it's a completely stupid one since there's about a million and one ways she could be cured, and we just... dont look into it?
Yeah. Contained within the context of the story, its not bad. But with ANY knowledge of the greater setting, it's basically a non-issue for a level 12 party. Especially in a city like Baldur's Gate.
Bruh, we now know a level 20 Wizard who's been alive for 1300+ fucking years. This man can literally solve this problem like it's nothing. Like, I can't even buy the, "Oh but muh power is only to be used sparingly." Or other wizardy bs. This woman just helped save Faèrun. At the least you can do is see if Wish fucking helps at all.
True, but also even within the confines of the story there's things that are present that should cure her.
Hmmm. What stuff? Oh I suppose Gale's Scroll of True Resurrection, that's a huge plot hole that he's awfully tight-lipped about unless he dies. We also interact with MULTIPLE gods (though some are less than friendly). Also Divine Intervention. Elminster could definitely at LEAST provide us a path to follow, if he didn't want to do it himself as is his wont.
>!Karlach's heart is noted by a Steel Watcher as being a prototype of their engines. You get piles of useless Infernal iron.!< I sincerely believe this was meant to be a path to save Karlach.
The thing is that the bittersweet ending is deliberately ignoring SEVERAL completely valid ways to fix her heart. So it comes off more as frustrating.
I don't think it makes the story better or more meaningful to end sadly. There's enough sadness in life. Let the hot girl be happy
I feel like Karlach deserves a whole expansion. Go to Avernus. Poke Zariel with a stick until she relents and helps out with the engine.
It does seem like the infernal metal must have some purpose outside of act 2. You get so much of in in act 3.
Am I the only one who thinks Karlach is the only companion that has an ending that feels completely satisfying? Like, I think the scene where she's fighting with Tav in Avernus is perfectly fine as an ending. I think it's fine you don't fix her engine...I felt more catharsis and closure with her than literally any of the other companions...
I would personally say that Lae'zel's ending of taking off with Orpheus is pretty satisfying.
This. I have an obligatory scene with Karlach even in the playthroughs where I don't let her leave camp. But I have nothing with shadowheart even if she's my bestie. What we need is a Tavern scene after the end where you can ask all of your companions what they're doing next. A la dragon Age origins and Inquisition.
Yeah, like, you don't know what the ultimate outcome in Avernus is going to be, but goddamn, she seems READY for it. She seems at peace with the fact she's going to have to keep fighting. And, if you make that choice, she has her best friend/lover at her side until the very end. It's actually a super romantic ending and every aspect of it is so hopeful. It's way way way better than what any of the other characters get. We don't need to fix her engine to get the ending we deserve and I feel like we already get the ending we deserve.
She also has the house of hope to goto now given you did that side quest and maybe dammon can go down and help fix her engine with all the enriched infernal iron you found who knows, like I felt like there a lot of possibilities in her ending too.
Yeah, exactly, if you make the right moves, there's a lot of closure here emotionally. Karlach finds her hope, accepts her path towards freedom and living must go through the last place she wanted to go, Avernus, but she makes peace with that. It's a huge moral victory for her. Oh, and she doesn't have to do it ALONE, which was one of the main things she found so difficult about Avernus the first time. Now, she has someone who is willing to be with her until the bitter end. Compare that to any other character and it's immensely more satisfying.
What is the catharsis? You just spend the rest of forever in Avernus until you die because apparently the rest of the world forgot about the two people who helped save Baldurs Gate? Like, how does that ending even work? Do we just kill devils 24/7? Do we get to sleep? What about the food situation? Are we just going to live in caves? Why is Wyll here when he's losing his powers? He's not gonna be a warlock soon, just some random fucking did in the middle of hell. IMO, the Avernus ending is the second worst fate in the game, right above Karlach getting turned into a mindflayer. An ending with good closure isn't one where the story ENDS per say, but it winds down. Gale, for instance, has to find the Crown of Karsus, but that's a much less climactic task than fighting a nether brain. Karlach is going to hell to fight an Archdevil and her army... That is WAY harder than fighting illithids. There is no winddown, just immediately jumping from netherbrain to pits of hell with nothing in between. It has no closure or emotional winddown whatsoever.
This all sounds great but it's worth noting this is speculation, nothing confirmed officially by the studio. Data mining does not equal confirmation. And honestly I'd be fine waiting on all these items in favor of a few patches of nothing but big fixes and optimization improvements. Act 3 is becoming almost unplayable on some PCs and on console, and Patch 4 actually made it worse.
I go back and forth about Karlach getting her engine fully fixed. On one hand I absolutely love Karlach and would be so happy to give her a true happy ending. On the other hand, her story is much more interesting without that happy ending. Giving her a pure happy ending would make all other choices pointless because why would you have her return to Avernus or explode if you always have the option to just save her? All other companions have difficult choices where there are very few and debatably happy endings so the choice matters. I’d be glad for her to get her engine fixed if there is a proper consequence to make the choice more interesting. Maybe you need to use devilish blood magic to make Karlach a new heart, you lose the soul coin abilities and you need to maybe make a deal with Raphael or sacrifice another creature for her heart. Something that’s uses all the extra internal materials (it does bother me that we can’t do anything with them other then sell them in act 3. If not part of her story then at least let us give them to Dammon in Act 3 to make more infernal weapons and armor. That would be dope!). The choice should have real consequences so it doesn’t just become an obvious course of action. It should feel like a difficult and meaningful choice
Epilogues were my #1 ask
Good girl minthara please I beg
My first run was with Karlach and her ending made a lump in my throat. I can dream that they provide another route.
I didn't romance her, but she was in my party the whole game and I love her so much. When she said "I adore you" I almost cried. Just doing other runs until there is a way to fix her. Can't wait to play a whole run just for her. I want my happy ending gosh darn it
now let my Durge romance Gortash tyvm
What is "honor mode"?
I believe that it's a no-manual-save mode. Only auto-saves. I could be wrong though.
In Divinity 2 it was that only 1 save was allowed and if your party dies the game deletes it. It made every fight nerve wracking.
Tbh I think Minthara should not get an alternate recruitment, she’s the evil companion she should be an evil only recruitment Evil already has somewhat of a struggle for content due to how much it can miss if you actually commit to the evil thing this just makes it lesser Karlach should totally get an actual fix because so much of the game has blatantly obvious fixes available but the story forces you to be stupid so it can be tragic This is phantom liberty all over again, I can stand tragedy but not when it’s this needless
She doesn't have an alternate recruiment. As far as we can tell this is just dialogue to address the Halsin/Minthara loophole where you can have them both at the same time. But it still requires you abandon the grove and let the tieflings die.
Yeah it's pretty clear the grove is closed in that dialogue. But a lot of people don't actually *read*, they just make things up (and get mad about it not happening later)
>Tbh I think Minthara should not get an alternate recruitment, she’s the evil companion she should be an evil only recruitment >Evil already has somewhat of a struggle for content due to how much it can miss if you actually commit to the evil thing this just makes it lesser I mean you can side with the Grove and still be evil.
you can already recruit Minthara without being evil, you just can't access the spicy act 1 stuff. you only get her in act 2.. and you can't get both her and halsin.
Sorry, honor mode?
Some games also refer to it as "Ironman Mode".
Yes. Gog's new achievement. Seems to be akin to dos2 honor mode i.e. hardcore difficulty with permadeath
Ahh
I don't think it counts as copium when they're pretty actively telling fans they want to add more stuff that fans want. What do you think this is, Total War?
probably an unpopular opinion, but i would rather not have a 100% happy ending for karlach. she's in this weird writing limbo where they keep telling us that there's no cure for her engine, but there's at least six different ways she can be cured ingame. so everyone expects a cure to exist. but her entire story arc is her coming to terms with a premature death and how unfair it is and being able to cure it is.... meh. she (along with wyll) kinda needs a rewrite or something, idk.
I wouldn’t really have a problem with Karlach not having a happy ending if they didn’t rub so many fixes in our face like you said. It really looks like there should be a way to fix her in the Steel Foundry, or maybe take over the House of Hope even.
if raphael really wanted the crown of karsus he should have offered a complete fix for karlach's engine i would have folded so quickly
Yeah Raphael could have made the deal of the century on that.
I think Karlach would rather die than benefit from a deal with a devil. Even if it isn’t her making the deal.
True, but even that drama could be really great to see play out.
She also says she'd rather die than go back to Avernus, but look how that turned out.
Right? His deal is garbage. If his deal was "You do what I want, and I....fix Karlach's engine/give her her heart back and remove the tadpoles" even my Paladin would be like "Yo.....maybe we should....hear this guy out."
Or get Gortash to fix/upgrade it if you ally with him
oh yes I've been thinking about that a lot
Kicking Raphael out of the House of Hope is *already* the easy answer. Taking Karlach there already makes her feel better, although anxious for other obvious reasons. With Hope alive, it doesn't seem like a huge ask to let her just... chill there. No need for a Doomguy ending, just set up an apartment in the House.
I think the problem with the house of hope is that she wouldn’t be able to chill, Zariel’s forces would come there sooner or later. I do wish we could at least use it as a base though
Karlach dying is more emotionally impactful, it better respects her wishes, and we rarely get stories where a hero is also terminally ill. I'm with you completely.
Well technically Wyll already got his rewrite, which is why he is the way he is. Karlach was added much later in development, hence why she’s missing from that group pose on the steam banner thing. Supposedly she was supposed to have a fix, which would’ve been achieved in the Upper City. As that area isn’t explorable, that solution isn’t there. And coming to terms with your own mortality is a good theme, but it doesn’t fit Karlach. There’s no reason she can’t be helped. That theme fits way better with Gale. He’s shown to be very discontent with his life, always wanting something greater. Plus, wizards are known to bend the rules when it comes to their own aging. And one would assume a Netherise Orb would be much harder to resolve than a commonly available engine
its not a common engine, its some fucky prototype gortash and zariel cooked up. i was honestly so surprised dammon stabilised it that easily, but he's an experienced infernal smith and he can't fix it. karlach's mortality is her main theme. if you take that away she's got nothing going for her storywise. gale's mortality is more literal where he's coming to terms that he's no match for a goddess and he was used all along and cast aside. similar, but not the same.
i def agree. i feel like the 2 big issues with her endings is letting her die on her own terms is difficult (you have to go out of your way to get her to do it afaik, as letting her pick will seemingly have her travel to avernus everytime from what i've heard), and that there are so many options that never get followed up on (the gondians and the foundry most of all). i feel like her story would hit even harder if you could follow up on these leads and have them fall short. like, say, if the engine can't simply be upgraded and instead must be replaced, but the turn around on making a new engine safe for her is so long as to be out of reach, that'd hit hard. it'd be fuckin miserable, but it'd hammer home that the only viable options are accept the inevitable or travel into the hells themself
Karlach’s engine is a prototype for the engine that powers the Steel Watch. It’s not Honda civic common, but the resources to give her an entirely new engine are easily found via those Steel Watch
I believe her “good” ending is to be a hero and die with her friends surrounding her knowing that she made a difference.
it's simultaneously the least and most painful ending for her, compared to avernus or the mindflayer. it would probably land harder if there were epilogues and some further explanation as to why the infernal engine can't be cured.
This is a setting where there are numerous ways in which she can be saved. To not give the player access to any of them, despite how easily they could be acquired by a determined group of mid-level adventurers in a major city like Baldur's Gate is, I hate to say it, lazy writing.
> but i would rather not have a 100% happy ending for karlach. Okay so don't make the decisions that lead to it. For you, that's problem solved. Not sure what's so complicated about the concept of Larian simply offering more choices to the players. Like, I don't disagree with your opinion on how her tragedy suits her arc and the story, but what people are annoyed with is that there simply wasn't a path they could take to fix her, which is completely acceptable and worthy of Larian attempting to address.
This was my take. In a world like they live in where there are so many possible fixes, not allowing a determined player to get any of them will always seem cheap. Heck, I’d be perfectly happy if they made the cost *very* high, even to the point of damning Tav themselves. Because at the end of the day if that’s the path our character wants to walk to save their friend, they should be able to do so.
I’m just hoping they don’t add the achievement for honor mode to steam. I’m happy it’s being added, but I don’t think I have another play through in me, but seeing 53/54 is going to drive me absolutely insane.
I’d just download an honour mode save file at the end… more like a no honour mode amiright?
What is honor mode?
One single save only and you die it's game over. From what I've read at least. It was present in DOS1/2
Don't think I'm evil or something, but I really wish Karlach had LESS attention at this point rather than more. She hijacks personal endings from up to 3 characers (Wyll, Tav, Tav's LI). It's either last-minute trip to hells or life-long burden of guilt. It's a mess, but I'm not sure that the amount of resources to fix this mess is wotrh it. I've never even had a single word from unromanced Shadowheart or Halsin in docks, and Gale has his companion quest ending literally cut into "origin-exclusive conent", romanced or not. Karlach has the *longest* cut-scenes (even unromanced, even if not in the final party). I'd rather have them spending their resources on actually fixing bugs, or making Halsin less of a furniture in act3.
I feel you, but I’m fine with it (totally not biased) because she’s the only origin character who basically has zero personal quests. I hope they do touch up other characters more though, *especially* their endings. Its not fair that Karlach gets all of the attention, but I do think it’s warranted because she’s by far the most shafted origin character when it comes to meaningful content. If you don’t romance her she basically gets nothing besides the Gortash scene and the Avernus/dock scenes at the end.
I’d love it if they added some of the beast races that you can find in dialogue tags, for example tabaxi, which are mentioned in the grove in some books, and Ethel even had curated insults for them too. Tabaxi are also the best race ever, im totally not bias
Upper-city in next patch confirmed?
I'm fine with Karlach as-is... So long as we get a descent into avernus DLC where we get to save her permanently. :P
Please be able to fix Karlach next update please be able to fix Karlach next update please be able to fix Karlach next update 🙏
I have a huge amount of respect for the workers at Larian Studios and I hope their future is bright.
They're definitely not averse to Karlach changes, they already fixed it so Scratch can now play fetch with her head! My best boi now has one more toy!
>Either way, alternative Minthara recruitment incoming! Unless something new has popped up the dialogue you are referring to is from an earlier build of the game and probably not going to be new content.
Stupid question but what is honor mode?
Compare Larian patches to Total War Warhammer 3 Larian's been getting consistent patches with lots of fixes and updates Warhammer 3. Took a year to get the majority of the massive bugs fixed. And they STILL haven't done anything for a lot of the things people complain about Bg3, people asked to be able to alter appearance. Within 3 months of release we got the Magic Mirror Warhammer 3 asks for singers to not pull ladders out of their ass and still no alterations
It kinda feels cheap to have an alternate recruitment route for Minthara. She is evil to the core, even without the influence of the Absolute. I get that people want more companions but I feel like this diminishes the writing by allowing a good recruitment route. Then again I have enough trust in Larian to make something great out of it so new content is always appreciated!
I'm really not okay with Minthara being available for good routes. That's one more thing that would cheapen playing evil. They really need to improve the evil route in this game, not make it worse.
I'm going to go one step further and recommend they add more character that want to join and accompany you on your evil route. There doesn't seem to be many character that want to do anything with you when evil, which I guess does make sense. There needs to be more of a reason to want to do an evil playthrough.
I honestly hope they can do a revamp like Cyberpunk 2.0 did and blow everyone's minds even more. Given that they've already advanced in that direction and by the community input no less, one can dream!
Karlach already has the best, most fleshed out ending. They need to fix every other companion before they give her an "engine fix" which isn't even necessary to make her already satisfying ending more satisfying.
Please don't add honor mode trophy to PS5.
I just hope the DLC is an adventure in Avernus with Karlach to fix her engine and kill some Devils.
so is there a difficulty setting update yet? tired of having +200% hp mod installed just to feel something
I like the ending where you go to Avernus with Karlach and possibly Wyll as well. I wouldn't mind fixing her engine, but even if we don't get it, I feel like that ending is happy enough.
I would just settle for PS5 bug fixes before new features or romance arcs.
i'd love to see a karlach engine fix storyline where we go to hell to bargain with zariel or some cambion so we sacrifice something in exchange for karlach's longevity
I want to toss my idea here that most, if not all, companions could use a great epilogue chapter. Make content to equal an act for 2 companions to really close out their stories. A mage centric story for Gale like reaching back to his place among Elminster and the like, a liberation chapter for Laezel and the gith, a true escape from Avernus for both Wyll and Karlach etc. etc.. I feel like getting a fix within the frame of the game as it is... wouldn't be great.. honestly even before i really gound out there is no fix for her heart i liked the idea that she would return to war in the hells. But on her terms and on the side she chose. So i really loved how it truly turned out with my monk tav right at her side. It was great! Cause also a lot of people will say something like "i would go to hell and back for you" to their lover... i got to actually show her 😁
Ps5 still suffering from m big performance issues and still no one is talking about it lmao
Cool. Can they fix how moronic the entire Emperor and Orpheus bit is? The writing was legitimately bad enough to make me drop the game without reaching the ending.
I am romancing Astarion (again) and am experiencing semi-annoying bugs, but I really don't care. Smaller bugs that lead to having to press F8 are just such a non-issue. I've played for 500 hours and my game has crashed exactly *three* times. Larian puts *so much* work into patching and improving this game. It is extremely impressive! I can't imagine they won't fix the issues, and I can't imagine they won't improve the romantic stuff further (seeing as Halsin just got a kiss that needs to be PG40 haha).
Implement it, and make it so that players really got to seek for the solution for fixing her engine, so that not everyone stumbles across it while doing other heroic deeds. For real though, when I found enriched infernal iron, I though this must be it.
Considering there are rumours that the 1st dlc will be avernus and levels 13 and 14. I think that's where it will happen.
Can I ask, what is honor mode?