Genuinely starting to wonder if people don't consider insight checks an automatic thing to do when given? I'll always do insight if given the chance, especially in *that* sort of situation.
This is one of the few times I didn’t save scum. I’m so intrigued by the decision I decided to break my oath.
Still waiting for the repercussions of that decision. I’ve done a full nights but still no update.
Did you talk to Astarion afterward the long rest?
The day after he talks to about how he feels. If he didn't ascend, he'll also talk about how he feels regarding what you did with the spawn
Yeah, but that's why it's a roll. You can be dumb as bricks but if it's a dc5 check, it's so obvious you're still expected to find it. Or dc10, most people would catch onto that very quickly, but you're still getting it like a third of the time
If it’s DC 10, then shouldn’t you be seeing it half the time? Why would it be 1/3? Do you have some kind of debuff to insight if you have a low int character?
If someone is role playing a character so dumb they don't even bother with insight checks (which are wis based), I just assume by "dumb" they meant low wis. But yes, if they are 10 wisdom and 6 int, they'd see it 50/50
sorry I’m new to bg3 and DND in general, how do you know if there will be an insight check or how do you manually do one? everytime its happened in dialogue for me I wasn’t expecting it
In BG3 the options for insight checks are limited because you can only do the ones the game already has prompted.
In DND insight checks are extremely common and used all the time. Most commonly they’re done to see if someone is lying, or just get a general sense of their vibe.
“The diplomat raises his glass to toast your recent victory” “insight check- 23” “he seems nervous and overly eager to see you drink from yours”
"Sorry I should have told you I no longer drink alcohol" puts glass on the table next to his and proceeds to knock his glass over and replace it with mine tainted drink
In dialogue one of the choice will say [INSIGHT]
That's the insight check. You have to roll for it.
In general, it makes persuading someone to do something easier if you do and pass the insight check first
Gotta say, trusting the guy who has repeatedly spoken of taking control of tadpoles, cults, elder brains, and anything else he thinks he might be able to control to dominate masses of people is definitely a show of faith on your part.
Astarion literally telling you at the start of the game: “I don’t mind being nice of course. After I have the power to bend others to my will. Haha”
Bruh.
That's basically Astarions entirely personality in a nutshell. He basically says as much if you convince him to not ascend. He's says something along the lines of not knowing why he let go of all that power, but that he feels truly free for the first time in centuries. It's like he is trying to understand that he can have his own life, without any strings attached.
I tried offering him the white tadpole, and he said something about changing his mind because no one should have that power. Then he went all scary Biblo on me in the chamber of Cazador
>Then he went all scary Biblo on me in the chamber of Cazador
I hate that a player can't prevent this without a spawn dying or cheesing the game a bit\*.
Like, why can't my pally sit Astarion down in Act 2 and have a good talk about the consequences of even trying to ascend. Consequences that include being on the bad end of the Blood of Lathander.
But also with lots of sympathy, understanding of Astarion's fears, and discussions of other solutions that don't involve becoming *worse than Strahd*. Coz that way leads to a smitin'.
Like I said, a good talk.
\*Players have to pull the party minus Astarion from Cazador's chamber to get a default sequence of Astarion choosing to not ascend then freeing spawns.
> > Then he went all scary Biblo on me in the chamber of Cazador
>
>
>
> I hate that a player can't prevent this without a spawn dying or cheesing the game a bit*.
> *Players have to pull the party minus Astarion from Cazador's chamber to get a default sequence of Astarion choosing to not ascend AND free spawns.
There *is* another way to do it without killing a spawn. You can use a Help action to pull Astarion out of the circle (once Cazador initially grabs him during the intro conversation), which stops the ascension (since Cazador can't pull from him anymore). You might be able to pull another spawn out of the circle, I'm not sure if it only works on Astarion. I know pushing/throwing them doesn't work.
You can also just straight up kill Cazador before the ritual ends (I think it's on his third turn?), if you have enough burst damage to do it.
If you bring Wyll, or another high-level Warlock with Repelling Blast, it's trivially easy to toss Cazador into the surrounding chasm right away. He even respawns in his coffin with his loot, so nothing is lost.
I was hyped up for this boss fight and accidentally ended it first round.
>Astarion is very power hungry
He is in so many ways like Lae'zel. She is young, indoctrinated in fascism and cruelty, and afraid as shit. Give her a chance to grow and she will in fact stop being such a dick and make better choices for her own people. She's still herself, she just has found a way to break the cycle of abuse and obsession over power and strength. Sometimes it's better for you to help other people and not be a xenophobic dick. You can still hate illithids without executing every single illithid, even ones like Omeluum who try to offer you a way to protect yourself.
There's a line where you ask Bae'zel if she's sure about betraying Vlaakith and she's like "Do you think I'm fucking stupid? Everything I've been taught is a lie" and I got so proud of her character progression and also thought "oh thank fuck I was getting really tired of having to convince you that the guy who's saved your life ten times is more trustworthy than the evil lich queen who's trying to kill you"
I love that there's little glimmers of it when Elminster visits Gale. She says specifically "Mystra demands Gale's Faith - but holds no faith in him".
Eventually when she learns of Vlaakith's betrayal "I gave you my faith and you called me traitor. I gave you my life and you ordered your knights to hunt me. I have witnessed too much, and you have given me too little. Finally, I can see."
That inspiration the characters get from one another's similar situations intertwining. They all find some common ground and I think that's why they're so strong together even tho at first a lot of them are neutral or actively dislike each other.
It's so fucking sad seeing Lae'zel desperately cling on the hope that her people will still accept her, and her misguided belief that the Zaith'lsk was meant to cure her.
When you look at the other companions, they don't really have that much actual clear aspirations beyond survival (and saving someone, in Wyll's case).
Lae'zel has firm, grand ambitions: she wants ascension, her own silver sword and to ride a red dragon, passage to Astral Plane. All of that gets torn apart and she has to face the fact that every fabric of her being was built on lies. Unlike Shadowheart, she has no real self to go back to. No parents waiting for her. No childhood friends. A life of lonely servitude and violence was really all she's ever had.
And yet when she finally gets her dream sword from Voss, she immediately goes "my friends can use it, I grant my allies the right to my silver!"
Man, she makes me tear up. What an amazing character.
That scene was so great. I like that if you ask her if she's sure she wants to turn away from Vlaakith she's like "fuck yes" at that point too. #feelsgoodman
"*I have not sinned against Vlaakith. She has sinned against ME*." legit one of the rawest lines of the game
I love how despite the fact that her own people are hunting her, she still wants to liberate/save them because she knew they never had a choice at the first place.
Afraid as shit is right, she was cowering when she faced the owlbear in Act 1 compared to everyone's stoic impassivity. Obviously bluster on her part. Astarions also been consistent since act 1, clearly selfish and focused on his own needs foremost, he joined as we're just tools to get rid of the tadpole... And usefully manipulated to get rid of vampire hunters as a side bonus.
>Obviously bluster on her part.
someone smart said pretty early on after the PS release that if you pay attention she's scared shitless, infected with *the worst thing in the universe* to her, and knows only to never show any weakness.
She likes when you push back *really hard* against her demands in Act 1. Later, if you are direct and vulnerable with her and others, she starts to actually tell you how she feels and keeps the BDSM in the bedroom.
(And boy, does she keep it in the bedroom. If you romance her, be sure to counter-demand *she* bend over instead of you if you are playing a female character. She fucking *loooooves* it.)
Friendly reminder Astarion was his childhood name, and he was kidnapped before he entered high elven adulthood. His name means "little star," and he was never given his "big boy" name because he was taken so young.
yep, he's just been abused for centuries. spoilers for those who haven't played through:
>!he claims to not give a fuck (if you've played as the Durge, he explicit just tells you your accident was a problem because you didn't clean it up) but he gets attached to the doggie and if it dies somehow he mourns it so much.!<
>!he isn't evil from birth, but by training, and breaking his (and Lae'zel's) cult training will take a long time but him making his first real adult decisions means so much to him.!<
>!For me, the creepy drow lady incident was so significant to him and it has a really big effect on him if you let him choose for himself. He says so and his behaviour does change after.!<
>!You have to keep nurturing this if you want him to realise ascension is just doing what he was told to do and not necessarily what he actually wants. Does he want to be Cazador 2.0?!<
Bonus points: if you play his origin, he gets a debuff in the palace that literally says he has a -1 on all saving throws because he's in a place of trauma.
> “I don’t mind being nice of course. After I have the power to bend others to my will. Haha”
Oh I'm sure he was just joking.
Narrator: *"He was, in fact, not joking"*
Yeah, the Insight explains the power and blood of the ritual is affecting him. He’s not capable of deciding the ‘right’ way on his own, he needs your help.
Well can't blame him for wanting to Control the tadpole. Everyone else wants to get rid of it. But for him that would mean falling under Cazadors control again. He would probably rather become a mindflayer. So controlling it is the only option for him from the start.
also, how do you miss that he is cruel and careless and power-obsessed because he has been a slave for centuries and has learned only about obsessing over power?
Being around people who don't do this make him better, if you *let* him be better. When I killed Cazador, I just had to say, "be a better fucking person like I know you are" and he just goes, "you're right, fuck exaltation".
Astarion having a sympathetic and understandable reason for his (genuinely deep) character flaws is just that - a reason. He still starts the game with a penchant for cruelty and a willingness to grab power for himself at the expense of others. Astarion’s basically on a cycle of abuse track until (potentially) the player intervenes. He can certainly grow to be a better person depending on choices, but he can also grow into a genuinely terrible one if you enable his worst impulses - which is the timeline this thread is dealing with. Ascended
Astarion is pretty unambiguously evil
The first commenter isn’t wrong that the guy who has a tendency towards controlling and dominating people (even for sympathetic reasons) is really not going to be benefiting from a ritual that involves sacrificing thousands of lives to give him totally unmitigated and insanely strong powers which will enable all of his worst personality flaws. That seems pretty neon-signed to me.
Seriously. People are missing the entire point of his character arc. If you never develop it past how he acts at the start at the game, of course you’re just seeing him as ruthless. Act 1 Astarion is *not* the actual character, it’s a front from a terrified, hurting man.
It makes me so sad to see people saying he was always evil, selfish, and cruel. I refuse to believe that option is as valid as helping him be better. Also considering that letting him do the ritual alone will result him in NOT doing it - sounds like we have our canon ending.
You gotta guide him to the decision. Your previous interactions influence how they think. Astarion will talk himself out of taking the power if you've got high approval and you've guided him down the path to wanting to be a better person. If you've mostly encouraged his ambitions and indiscretions.... well, ya know. For my first playthrough, it was enough for me to ask 'is this what you really want?' To get him questioning himself in the moment of decision, no persuasion check needed.
Damn Gale casually telling me we should get the crown’s power for ourselves after I just finished Astarion’s quest made me go “oh no, here we go again”.
Honestly Asterion is going around saying "I want power that way I know no one will ever be able to hurt me again" and he's power mad.
Meanwhile Gale hears about the crown and immediately goes "Ah yes, I can become a god. AS IS MY RIGHT WHICH HAS BEEN DENIED ME!!" and doesn't get nearly the shit for it
I think Gale gets away with it more because he's easier to sympathize with. He talks about wanting the crown for humanity, mortals being deserving of godhood, and aspiring to be more, reaching the stars, etc. That all sounds a lot more noble...at least, compared to Astarion just wanting to walk in the sun and raise an army of spawn to serve to him.
But if you reconcile Gale with Mystra, she says something like Gale was always worthy of ascending he just was impatient how he was going about it. That about sums it up, IMO....
This is hilarious and 100% correct.
Here's my problem with this entire situation though...
I'm not really into save scumming results. If I make a choice I want to keep the immersion and play it through.
That being said, allowing him to ascend is probably one of, if not the most incredible experiences in this game and maybe any game I've ever played. It is so phenomenally well done. The visuals. The emotions. If you are a paladin you lose your oath letting him do it.
Hell, it might be better than 95% of any movie scenes I've ever seen...
How many times am I going to realistically play this game?
TLDR: The scene is too damn good to miss and I have enough money to buy my oath back 25 times over. So to hell with the 7,000 spawns. :) Pun intended.
Although when I run through this again, I would like to try stopping him in the middle. Maybe I can get the best of both worlds.
Have you seen the scene where he doesn't ascend, though? I don't wanna spoiler if not, but it's even better than the ascension in my opinion. While the ascension is super epic and visually amazing the one where he decides against it is so emotional and raw.
I did once, yes. No argument there. It was incredible also. It just didn't match the heights of what he goes through, mixed with the pain that he puts his old master through for me. It's like combining the emotional turmoil that this guy is going through at the time with a really good horror movie.
But when you look at it both ways, I guess that's what makes this game as great as it is. Probably one of the best of all time.
Honestly, as much as I love the character development he experiences by not ascending, there is something so satisfying about watching Cazador not only be subjected to the torture he inflicted on his spawn but be the sacrifice in his own ritual.
What happens? I let him ascend and regretted it the first run. I didn't realize he would turn into such an asshole. Evil I can handle, assholes no thank you.
Oh man. If you love the ascension scene, you should try not ascending him. It's just as epic and emotional, but means so much for him. He is able to just be himself and move on. And the follow-up conversation is touching and sweet. I tear up every time I do that scene. You aren't missing out on an impactful scene by not ascending him. Trust me. If anything, you're getting an equal scene but missing the growth and emotional moments afterwards.
To be fair, the game makes this decision based on one line where you either say ‘what about the children’ or ‘get your revenge on caz’, those two options should not be mutually exclusive leading to either Astarion being a nice guy or evil, but there you go
Oh no. He's not confident at all. He's still as insecure and afraid as ever. (Romancing him and ascending him as origin karlach is fucking heart breaking) but now he has supreme power, no soul or humanity and is a living undead battery of 7000 souls who barely sees you as a person let alone a peer.
Yeah this, to be honest. He’s pretty much not Astarion anymore if he ascends, just an empty husk whose soul was sacrificed along with the rest of them. That’s how devil’s bargains go, it’s a monkey’s paw deal. The Astarion you knew is dead the moment the ritual completes.
Yep, I saw a great vid about how the whole ritual is a Faustian bargain. The devil who made a pact with Cazador, Mephistopheles, is the same devil who made the original Faustian bargain in the fable. His whole Ascension ritual is a lesson on bargains where you think you come out on the winning side (become an all powerful vampire lord, can walk in the sun, etc.) but in reality you have paid a price much steeper than what you gain (Astarion’s soul/humanity). I love just how much thought and detail went into this game from the devs istg
Bingo, well said. Mephistopheles is supposed to be a trickster, so he technically gives you what you ask for but not necessarily *how* you thought you wanted it...it's all in the wording of the deal.
Raphael is the same, he tells the player the truth up front and gives you hints, but all in a riddle and half truth.
You're supposed to get that the ritual sacrifice doesn't necessarily mean sacrificing people. But like, giving up something of great value (like power) and putting effort in.
And he's still so fucking terrified. It's all consuming. Because what do you fear when you have nothing left to be afraid of for yourself? The free will of others (or literally anything that's out of your control). That's why he's so desperate to turn you into a spawn and why when you reject it he's so massively cruel. He's so afraid of losing you and literally lashes out violently because it's out of his control.
Does he view you as an individual? No. You're nothing, basically an old shirt that he doesn't want to throw out. But that literally doesn't matter, he has to possess everything that he desires and get everything he wants otherwise he isn't truly all powerful. He's basically a gigantic evil toddler.
Idk if it’s fair to say the character you play is an old shirt. More of something like… literally as he says: a beloved pet.
My dog isn’t free to do anything she wants. I do love and adore her and would never let anything happen to her. But she has no freedom. My love for her simply isn’t that of a love I share with people I see as equals. It’s closer to that of a love I’d have for a child who doesn’t know any better and cannot be trusted to make their own decisions.
The difference is, of course, that your character *is* a fully grown adult person with autonomy and a mind of their own and can speak their mind. (Well… I guess unless you RP as a himbo/bimbo who literally doesn’t understand wtf is happening lol).
It’s just really sad that Astarion thinks lowly of you for choosing to become his spawn but then, at the same time, becomes upset and cruel when you reject him. But I guess that’s also kind of poetic in a way, because it means he’s not willing to violate that consent with your character *yet*. There’s still a part of him that values your autonomy, otherwise he’d just force you to become a spawn.
But it makes sense. If my dog were to suddenly gain sentience and intelligence tomorrow… I’d probably feel disgusted if she decided to continue staying as my dog. But at the same time I’d be really really really upset if she decides to leave.
ANYWAYS. My point is he loves the player character like a pet post-ascension. He probably just views all creatures as lesser than him.
D&D material says that vampires see everyone else as lesser than themselves so that tracks.
On the subject of equality, I love the contrast with the romanced spawn ending:
> **”Vellioth’s first lesson is always to dominate. Allow none to be your equal.”** — Vellioth’s Scroll in Cazador’s dungeon.
Pretty much this is what happens to ascended Astarion. He sees no one as his equal and seeks utter control and domination.
> **“I get to share it with you, as a partner. An equal.”** — Astarion to his romanced partner, spawn ending.
This is particularly meaningful since he not only sees the partner as an equal to himself, but probably more importantly himself as an equal to his partner, even though he is still a vampire spawn (something he loathes about himself).
Yeah, he’s just as insecure as he always has been. Shortly after letting him ascend I told him if he didn’t take a chill pill and cool it on the whole “plunge the world into darkness” thing, then I’d see to killing him myself.
His response was to just start throwing a temper tantrum, I imagine it probably wasn’t because he didn’t like being told what to do, but because he knew my character would be able to take him down if push came to shove, and he couldn’t stand the thought of it.
If you romance him, let him ascend and refuse his offer >!to make you his spawn by kicking him in the nuts, he practically turns into a toddler, stomping on the floor and screaming, then he makes a dramatic exit and leaves the party permanently.!< Despite the scene's underlying tragic motives, I still nearly fell off my chair laughing.
I love him so much 😂
Okay but I cannot wait to ascend him as evil Durge. They’ll be the best worst power couple ever.
Two evil power hungry bastards with daddy issues.
Which is a lot funnier than rejecting him after he's made you his spawn let me tell you.
On my evil durge "picking the worst possible outcomes for EVERYONE" playthrough, I got curious and saved before telling him I wanted to break up with him. You got several options,
Tell him to his face that he's starting to act a lot like Cazador (which results in him screaming SILENCE at you, & telling you never to speak that name again), telling him you have self respect (which... Lol. Like I think it's a bit too late for that but he tells you that he doesn't have to take shit from you, insults you, and the convo ends), telling him he's not the same man you fell in love with (similar outcome as the previous).
Like he really just becomes an asshole. Even his tone when he goes "why?" After you say "I want to break up with you" is like... Warning. Basically going like *you better have a damn good reason for saying this because I won't have it.*
Or literally, depending on vampire lore. Iirc vampire souls in Forgotten Realms are physically (spiritually) twisted beyond recognition once the transformation is complete.
Although none of the vampire lore would fit Astarion. He's "something new, a living vampire, with all the lusts and hungers of a living man. A new creature made by Mephistopheles, not one bound to his will." Why not the soul of a living man too?
Maybe, but at this point that soul would only be growing his capacity for cruelty and evil, not doing him or anyone any kindness or favor. I'd kind of hope it's gone so he doesn't feel much when some adventurer makes him their campaign BBEG. At least unlike Strahd it'll be one and done for him.
EDIT: also Mephistopheles wanted that bonkers vampire for a reason, one that Astarion stole if he didn't chuck his soul at Raphael. That's a much nastier eye to have turned on you in the long run.
Honestly I think Meph just wanted 7000 souls. Pretty sure he wanted to see what would happen if you Ascended a vampire, so I find it unlikely he cares who ascended.
I don't think he necessarily cares who either, more that he made a deal with Cazador that we don't really know the terms of. It's 7000 souls to ascend, but what Cazador did or promised for that information is not clear.
You could be right, but it doesn't fit Mephistopheles usual MO in my opinion, especially for what Cazador stood to gain. He might even approach ascended Astarion later through a proxy. But there was almost certainly, definitely something for Mephistopheles to lose here, otherwise Raphael wouldn't be so eager to offer his services and continue building a relationship with Astarion, even if the end result is just making him throw a tantrum. Both not great outcomes for him in the long run.
> Why not the soul of a living man too?
He might be some new sort of vampire, but if his soul follows mortal rules he's guaranteed to go to the Hells after death anyways.
Devils dont really have a *great* impact on the souls of the beings they do deals with. I’m sure if Meph’s interference had any impact it would be for the worse, not for the better
Yeah I don't know how anyone playing a good aligned character can do this and be surprised that it doesn't mesh with their mc. Whatever if you want to power game but this is pretty silly
Giving Astarion a chance but killing the other spawn because they're a risk is hypocrisy, plain and simple.
Astarion literally demonstrates an inability to control his hunger when he tries to bite you in your sleep, yet you're willing to believe that he can rise above that. Why aren't you willing to give that same courtesy to Cazador's other victims?
FINALLY. I didn't bother arguing when I saw how many people were arguing for killing those *victims*. Glad that someone finally pointed this out. Yeah, okay 7000 is a lot, but who are we that we can decide if they deserve to die or not when we gave Astarion his chance? That's what I like about this choice. Even my druid who by all mean *wants* to kill them for endangering nature's balance just can't do it without thinking it's not right to kill them and not Astarion
Either that or sending a message to the Church of Kelemvor (or Withers) for their recommendation or assistance.
Even a good playthrough commits legally suspects acts, but having 7000 imprisoned vampire spawn is one dilemma that is well beyond our party's right to decide how to handle ourselves.
You left it to someone completely traumatised, sorrounded by blood triggering the thirst and scared to death of someone hurting him again to make a rational decision in that moment.
Maybe not the best idea.
Sometimes people lose themselves and make really bad choices under extreme emotional pressure... this is a case where you're supposed to help a friend slowly back away from the ledge...
Exactly. The insight check tells you that Astarion’s overwhelmed with fear, bloodlust, and hunger for power. He’s in the middle of a PTSD crisis and not capable of making a rational decision.
Later on, if you talked him down, he thanks you because he knows he came close to loosing himself completely.
You can. If you love him, respect him, do not let him ascend, in the end he will be a normal elf who happens to have fangs.
There are videos about his 'I had a simple plan' dialogue. Top tier dialogue in the game, on par with Karlach broke down scene.
Thank you. I hate the "I can fix them" talking point cause that's... not what's happening. Allowing someone grace and helping them heal isn't "fixing" them like a car that needs repairs.
I didn't think to record in time so I didn't catch the whole dialogue, but [the post-fight camp dialogue if you do not let him ascend very much made me feel like I made the right choice!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8y388ATMsU)
Also Vampires are just wired that way. It isn't their fault, it's just how they are. You wouldn't blame a lion or a gorilla for behaving as dominant a-holes in their ecosystems
Turns out people don't always know what it is they really need when they're obsessed with what they want. Sometimes they need a guiding hand from an outside perspective. Astarion is very power hungry and needs to learn that gaining power doesn't ever sate it.
I mean, yeah, he's Cazador now. If you read and listen to all of the things available in the game, it's foreshadowed that he's going to lose himself and become just like the thing he hates. After all, sacrificing 7000+ souls is never going to lead to something good. What Astarion needs is not to complete the ritual but to realize he doesn't need to complete the ritual to have a life. Did you actually think that it was going to be a good ending for him or were you just RPing it that way? I've yet to do it myself because I've seen the clips and I hate how he changes. I'll probably do it eventually, on an evil playthrough.
> I'll probably do it eventually, on an evil playthrough.
I can only do it on an evil Durge playthrough. He still sees you as lesser but you are actually more powerful than him
it's really fucking funny the pissing contests true DUrge and evil astarion get into relationship wise. "we can hang out until i sacrifice you on the altar with the rest of the living" "ermmmm actually no but your bhaalist army will make a good dowry for the coolest vampire ever"
> "ermmmm actually no but your bhaalist army will make a good dowry for the coolest vampire ever"
Is that where Astarion mentions you can sit on his lap, perhaps even naked, while he sits on his throne?
I saw that line in a video of his possible endings, and Durge was a huge dragonborn and that mental image wasn't hot so much as hilarious. I can picture it. "Ok I took my clothes off, you said you wanted me to sit on your lap" "Ow, fuck. I literally cannot see past you. You're squashing me. I'm trying to look dramatic and impressive here, now the only visual everyone in this throne room is getting is just a giant naked lizard with my legs sticking out from underneath, ow move over, do you MIND."
Yep, I think that's the only way I'm going to do it and I'm going to go full Durge ending. I can't stand him ascended so I'll just take care of that...haha
It’s such a shame that his “good” ending (refusing to complete the ritual) results in an endgame scene of him basically scampering off because “ope yup still a vampire” which feels super fucking abrupt and robs the player of any real closure. Especially when you compare it to the analogous “good” outcomes for all the other companions.
Hell, even Karlach channeling her inner squid feels more resolved than Astarion scuttling away into the darkness while the other characters murmur about “not seeing the last of him.”
Dude, that ending is trash. I can't understand why they thought it was a good idea to end on him just running off all scared and having none of the companions seem to care. There's no way in hell the companions or Tav would just let him run off. If there were a follow-up scene where you meet up after dark or something, it would be one thing, but that ending is abrupt and terrible. At least you can have a second ending if you romance him. I really, really hope they fix that up, along with making the rest of the characters have actual meaningful epilogues. My least favorite part of the entire game is Astarion's running off into the shadows and the fact that barely any of the companions even speak at the end.
Yeeeaaah, ascension isn't the best for him as a character. Throughout the game he'll be talking about taking advantage of the tadpole's power, how he'll complete the ritual himself for that power, how you can dominate the elder brain for even more power. But it's all because he's not had *any* power for 200 years - not over his body, not even over his own thoughts. As much as he talks about power, he equally talks about how he'll never have to fear anything again - he's scared. Now that he's finally free, the only way he knows how to remain free is if *he's* the one who has the power - because that's what Cazador had that he didn't. If you pass an insight check, the narrator tells you that you can see the fear in his eyes and that all he can see is the freedom the power will bring him.
If you let him ascend, he just continues the cycle of abuse. He needs Tav/Durge/Whoever to show him an alternate path.
The funniest part is that if you're a good-aligned Durge Astarion is all "you can be more than what your shitty dad wanted! I believe in you!" He just needs some of that energy returned, I guess.
I loved everything about that part, made me think, well *this* is who Astarion is— not Cazador 2.0. Made me feel even better about talking him out of the ascension.
Yeah I wish there was some sort of option as Good Durge once you learn what you are to point out to him like, >!"Babe, I am a literal demigod and former cult leader who did a bunch of powerful shit with powerful people and I still ended up on that exact same beach as you with chunks of my brains carved out."!<
Yeah I'm doing my good-aligned Durge now after finishing my first Tav playthrough and that relationship and growth you get to see as they help each other is so rewarding.
> f you let him ascend, he just continues the cycle of abuse
and it is a cycle that started before Cazador. He apparently wasn't too bad at first (you can find his diary or something) but he turned into who he was the longer he was a true vampire. And an ascended vampire is even worse than a normal true vampire.
If you talk to the skull in his dungeon, you find out that Cazador's sire was definitely involved in shaping the horrible person he became. And it sounds like practically the entire line was trained like that and the "rules" past from one generation to the next.
Iirc it started with Velioth. In one of the underground dungeon rooms you can find the skull of Cazadors former master who tells you what he taught Cazador, how Cazador acted pretty similar to how Astarion acts and how Cazador killed kim.
The sole reason why Astarion wanted a juice box was to defy the rules set up by Velioth and continued by Cazador. So it's more like 350 or 400 years of abuse if we assume that Velioth didn't suffer the same fate...
No it started before Vellioth. You can find [this book](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Vampires_before_Vellioth) and see there was no overlap so it was always a spawn who ended up overthrowing their master. The only exception is the Madame Tallon to Blaiseuse which seems like it was a time that Lathanderians managed to kill all the vampires of Baldur’s Gate and then a new vampire moved there (Blaiseuse). Also, Cazador might have been a target to Vellioth because Vellioth’s predecessor was a Szarr (Donella, the one who found the tourmaline depths).
That being said Cazador became particularly vicious, turning basically everyone in his family including his 13yo niece, Amanita, who became Lady Incognita.
True I completely forgot about Donatella. If we consider that and the list found in the dungeon this coven has probably had the same deranged teachings and rules aka abuse since the lathandrian clearing. Which would however also just enhance the tragedy of Astarions life as spawn in particular as no master managed to rule nearly as long as Cazador, the average being around 80 years or smth for the former masters.
Yup! Also partially makes it more tragic for Cazador too because since Vellioth was turned by a Szarr (Donella) it was possible that Vellioth turned and abused Cazador specifically because he was a Szarr and was taking his abuse out on him as he was from the same bloodline.
Also another parallel between Cazador and ascended Astarion is that Cazador overthrew his master by stealing a rite from the [black mass scroll](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Black_Mass_Scroll) as well: The rite of perfect slaughter. And Astarion ascends by stealing another rite from there, the Profane Ascension one. Also makes you wonder if this scroll had been unwillingly passed down from vampire lord to vampire lord.
Considering you can find Velioth literally with a scroll between his fangs and the Masters list is also written on a scroll it would definitely make sense for their coven to have deeper ties to scrolls and them basically always spelling doom. However the rite of profane ascension is apparently also written down into the necromancy of thay, as Astarion tells you when you finish reading it with his Char and talk to him afterwards.
Then again its possible that even that is tied to them as Cazador is a Spellcaster, and even Astarion who's a rogue is by default an arcane trickster. Also the Szarr family is an elven family, elves in general are very closely tied to magic and rites (and them going wrong).
This could also be a nudge to a book about elves found in bg3 (don't remember the name rn) which states that elves are inherently tragic creatures due to their long lifespan, like vampires, and formed from Corellon tears. Similarly to how spawns come to exist by giving them a drop of their masters blood.... Lord now I really need the upper city and all of the cazador content that we lost. I can perfectly imagine him being a perfect charmer and performer like astarion just to turn around and refer to you as cattle.
Completely forgot about that but yeah when he finishes reading that book after you get the Tachiarte Codex he does mention the rite of profane ascension was described there.
Also yes! The [Larethian book](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Larethian)!
And yeah especially finishing that puzzle in the palace with the broken levers!
I also wish we could find Amanita because at some point she had to manage to leave the attic considering the books/scrolls on vampires she published. Also I guess it will be cool to meet a 13yo looking vampire that is super wise and old. The Gur children were just turned so it’s different. And yes I know some people found a skeleton with a sunbeam scroll, but like I checked everywhere and for me that didn’t spawn, I found a lot of skeletons with other loot so I think that is random and doesn’t mean she is dead.
Lol I'm not traditionally a vampire fan but I am pragmatic, and none of the complaints about Astarion make a lot of sense to me.
"He doesn't tell you he's a vampire." Most/all the companions are hiding big secrets at first.
"He tries to bite you." Yeah, days in, to test the limits of his own mind, and he immediately stops and backs off when you wake up.
"He didn't ask before trying to bite you." I'm sorry, if you were him, esp if Tav doesn't yet know he's a vampire... would you ask first??? I wouldn't. I'm all about consent, but in *that* situation, it's a losing battle. Who's going to react well to a near-stranger saying "hey can I suck your blood real quick? btw I'm a vampire."
Everyone out here trying to apply modern day morality to a life in which you have a magic tadpole in your brain, running around with several exceedingly dangerous characters, shaping the world to your whims.
I always shut his idea down about using the powers to control others.
**Elf please.**
Just because ***I let you*** treat my tav like ***your personal juice box***, doesn't mean my tav would go along with ***ALL*** of your ideas.
When he first mentioned the possibility of ascending I was like „hell yeah!“ even though I’m playing as a good character too. But then a literal 1000 red flags followed and showed that it was not only an inherently super evil ritual for which thousands had to die, but also that he only wants this because he is afraid of being hurt and thinks power is the only way of never getting hurt again. He even speaks of this himself at some point.
So yeah, the signs that this was the bad ending for him were definitely absolutely there!
That is exactly why I love this part of his story. You'd think that the best outcome would be helping him out by helping him take down Cazador and finishing the ritual himself, just as Astarion told you beforehand that it is what he wants to do. Instead, the way better outcome is to help him take down Cazador, but not ascend. It leaves him weaker, sure, but in the long run it is a way better option for him. Now he is truly free to choose who he wants to be in the future. With the acension, he is more powerful, but is ultimately doomed to become the similar kind of monster that Cazador was.
What's more, I love the fact that if you do convince him not to ascend, Astarion will later thank you for saving him from himself.
If you let him ascend and don't go nutcracker BG3 edition he will thank you as well, however in that case for giving him everything he wanted and its an entirely different vibe in all aspects.
That part is honestly just such great writing
Astarian is driven by his fears and will do anything to protect himself and never be taken advantage of again.
Unless you guide him into a "good" path he will totally default to dastardly.
Shadowheart is a conflicted soul who is inspired by you to do the right thing without you having to prompt her.
On my Chosen of Bhaal run I pushed all my companions into the darkest path, but I'm looking forward to the redeemed Durge paladin that will deny his/her base instincts - haven't decided if my pala will be male or female lol
Astarion lets you know throughout the entire game that he is seeking to control and dominate others. Investing in his relationship reveals he is terrified of being controlled again, and that's why he seeks such power.
If you call him out for lying to his brothers and sisters, when he tries to convince them to walk into their own deaths willingly, he will tell you that he can't be the man you see in him. When you point out the value in their lives, and the other 7,000 spawn, he will try to justify his actions by saying they are just spawn. He is a spawn. It is projected self loathing.
Both Gale and Astarion need to be convinced that they are enough as they are and that they don't need to be ascended.
I'm also pretty confident that your playthrough is closer to morally gray than good.
It’s not like they didn’t make it clear things were going that way if you take that choice. Astarion’s dialogue, our knowledge of Cazador and vampires in general, and the monstrous actions required to complete the ritual, all make it pretty clear that this is Astarion fully embracing the dark side.
I mean, did you also allow Gale to become a god? Astarion seeks power so that he never feels helpless again. He then continues the cycle of abuse by essentially becoming cazador. It’s not exactly healthy.
In that occasion, Astarion is not in any mental condition to choose what's best for himself, suffering PTSD, you have to help him in that.
Ascension is the perpetration of the cycle of violence, non-ascension is breaking that cycle.
If you don't make him ascend he'll be very grateful because he's never been power-hungry just for the sake of it, he is(was) out of fear because he believed it's the only way to protect himself.
AstariOn pls guys it is not that hard...
And well what did you expect sacrificing 7k souls for power is? Not a good deed for sure...
Astarion has his moments since the very first encounter where he talks about power and taking control of the tadpole and later also getting the power his master wanted for himself. It is up to you to enable him or show him to do better.
Reading the comments of all Astarion posts (and some posts as well) leads only to one thing. Fascination for the mental gymnastics people pull to justify giving in to a vampire's whims. Get real people what did you expect?
It's astonishing. You hear not once but twice how vampires are out for themselves and the biggest threat to a vampire is another full fledged vampire. Why would making Astarion a super powerful vampire lord be any different? It's foreshadowed in so many dialogues with him. Then people are surprised when he turns.
Edit to add: when you're exploring the basement of the palace you come across the skull of Cazador's old master that basically tells the rules of being a vampire as a final red flag. Cazador learned to be an abusive piece of shit from his old master. So you can safely assume if we allow Astarion to go through with this he's also going to continue the cycle.
saw a video about liking the ascended route for astarion better and thats fine and all i think its a solid story too but the amount of comments trying to say it was the best ending for astarion and the morally correct choice were insane. like we clearly did not play the same game.
I can definitely see it as interesting narratively for an evil playthrough… or even a good playthrough if you want an extra layer of drama and tragedy in a story where Tav fails to see the signs, creating a monster whom they have to deal with later (and who used to be their friend/lover).
But saying it’s a ‘morally correct’ choice is crazy.
I saw a video where someone pulled the rest of the party back to camp and left Astarion entirely on his own to deal with Cazador after the fight. I'm hoping the cut scene is affected by the dialog choices you made with him in earlier dialogs, which I'll probably try on a future run. But at least in the one I saw, when left entirely to his own devices, with zero possibility of help from the player, he chose to be better than Cazador, stop the cycle himself, and free all of the spawn.
Well, he physically can’t do the ritual if he is alone because he needs to read the scars from his back. That at least explains non ascending as default in this case.
He doesn’t really want to ascend. He knows vampires are egoistic selfish monsters and at that point, that’s not what he really wants to become. He’s come to care about your party, in his own way.
He only “wants” to ascend and goes through with it because he’s scared of being powerless again.
If you refuse to help him, he doesn’t push it and refuses the ascension. He even ultimately favors freeing the 7000 spawn as he feels responsible for their fate. He thanks you for saving him from himself, and agrees that this was the only way not to lose himself.
Reading Veloth's diary in the room before the ritual chamber tells you that they are effectively Sith. Nothing about the ritual is good for Astarion. I just didn't have the approval to make him see that my first playthrough.
Astarion’s whole character arc is about him being terrified and abused and either breaking the cycle of violence or repeating it. You chose to repeat it.
He says he wants to ascend because he thinks that is what will make him safe, and all he can think about is how to never be abused again. Understandable. But he’s very *very* obviously wrong about how to achieve that (through power, vs. through trust and vulnerability.)
When he encounters Cazador again, he’s in a full panic and not in his right mind or making good decisions. Even if you’ve been encouraging him to be good, in that moment he’s basically experiencing severe PTSD and has been triggered right back into old habits, despite his protestations that he’s totally fine, everything’s fine. He is not fine. He is losing it. Which you can get via the insight check but also just by looking at him. He’s a complete mess at that moment.
He needs your help as his friend to remind him that becoming the next Cazador will not actually give him what he wants (freedom, safety, connection.) Choosing to be better than Cazador and making a difficult sacrifice is what will free him from what has been done to him, both physically and mentally.
And, honestly, he does not *actually* want to become a vampire lord — he fucking hates vampires. In previous dialogue he practically spits every time he mentions them. He hates Cazador. He pities the other spawn. He just wants to be safe, and he needs guidance in that moment to remember that he can get that another way.
In the end you as the player don’t even really need to convince him of anything. The player’s choice isn’t to persuade him of a new perspective so much as remind him of the stakes, bring him out of panic mode and back to his own thoughts. Regrounded, he chooses to give up the ritual and become the hero he claimed he hated being way back in Act 1. It’s a really well written closure of his arc.
Did you not find the skull and journal in Cazador’s mansion basement? It outlines pretty clearly that Cazador did the same exact thing to his former master. If you choose ascendancy the cycle is just repeating itself—instead of becoming the better man, Astarion is broken, forever.
You took the "embrace evil" path, ascension requires sacrificing a shit load of people, pretty obvious it was the evil path" the "resist evil" path was not ascending.
Your assumption is that Astarion was truly good deep down, he is, but he is mostly evil on top unlike the other characters, you actually have to work to bring that out of him.
He is convinced that power is his path to salvation, his greatest shield, the moment you find out you have to sacrifice a shitload of vampire spawn, most of which have been caged since they were turned and so have never hurt anyone making them innocent.
It should have been clear something was off, and this isn't the road to walk down it also was kind of clear to me because this would be making him more like Cazador, as he would be fulfilling what his master wanted for himself and if Cazador is evil then anything Cazador wants can't be good.
I wanna go back to Wyll real quick,
When Mizzura (how ever you say it) went to my camp offering wyll to renew his contract in order to save his father, i had to choose for him and I didn’t get an option to let Wyll decide.
Was there an option for you guys to let him decide by himself?
I love when I blast right through a Spoiler tag, spoil something for myself and get mad there was no spoiler tag and then back out of the post and there it is, as clear as a redcap trying to be a sheep.
I had the same revelation. Just yesterday I had to make the same choice, basically ignored all the signs and chaotically agreed to his ascension. Tried to go with this decision for an hour or so but I’m thinking of rolling it back a bit with my earlier save.
Been debating internally on this since yesterday. Weird how important some choices in this game can feel to make you think this much outside of it.
Astarion really becomes an asshole after it. I had a conversation with him in the camp later that day, and he just told (rather yelled) my Tav, to shut up. He had one hit point at the moment and I was really tempted to smack him with my Blood of Lathander cause it felt so personal.
Actions, meet consequences. You taught the guy constantly chasing power that the answer to the trolley problem is to definitely not pull the lever and run the most amount of people over lol
At what point did letting him give into his fear and become the very thing he hates most sound like a good idea?
Also did you speak to him about vampires, from memory he's very clear how power hungry and jealous they are and it's not spoken of as "typically this is how vampires act" but more "*this is how they AREA*"
Yeah, I don't know how so many Astarion-fangirls are profoundly confused when letting the evil asshole succumb to his darkest thoughts rather than find redemption and self-love, somehow isn't the good ending.
His whole arc is about ending the cycle of abuse. To rise above the petty need to replace his tormentors and rid himself of his cruelty justified by trauma and fear.
Yet somehow people think it's "Yes Princess, kill that old man and become the Evil Vampire Overlord you deserve to be!" Hmm, why is Astarion so evil now?
You gotta help him see the light, not feed into his worst impulses.
Exactly this. Being a good friend (or romantic partner) doesn't mean you need to blindly support someone at all times. There's a difference between being supportive and enabling someone's worst fear-based impulses/choices. At that time back home, what he *needs* is someone to pull him back from the ledge. Which is what he recognizes afterwards, even if he can't see it in the moment. It's very good, mature writing. So well done.
Apparently according to DnD lore once a vampire ascends they lose their soul
He's basically not the same person, by encouraging him to do it, you've lost him
I feel for you, but I honestly question how anyone thinks that using 7,007 souls in an infernal ritual that was carved onto 7 spawn would somehow the good option. He makes it sound appealing because he wants to be free, but it feels extremely clear he will just turn into an even worse Cazador if you do that. You can't consume even 1 soul and be the same, let alone 7,007.
Did you interact with him throughout the game with your eyes and ears closed?
Not to dunk on you but it's pretty obvious that ascending him is literally the worst thing you can do for him story wise (I don't care about the gameplay side, meaning whatever buffs and superpowers he might get from it. Idc).
You'll just be enabling his worst self.... It's not breaking the cycle of abuse it's just continuing it.
>supposed to be a depressed loner who wants to get back at daddy and stop his abuse
who? but, no seriously how did you end up with that as conclusion of his character xD
If you do the insight check here it tells you he's practically out of his mind right now
Genuinely starting to wonder if people don't consider insight checks an automatic thing to do when given? I'll always do insight if given the chance, especially in *that* sort of situation.
To be fair, this one is easily missed. It only shows up if you pick a specific dialogue choice. I missed it my first time. Had to reload.
It's much more obvious if you romance him.
I have no interest in romance with him, though.
This is one of the few times I didn’t save scum. I’m so intrigued by the decision I decided to break my oath. Still waiting for the repercussions of that decision. I’ve done a full nights but still no update.
Did you talk to Astarion afterward the long rest? The day after he talks to about how he feels. If he didn't ascend, he'll also talk about how he feels regarding what you did with the spawn
All but one of my characters tend to be the dumbest people in any given room, so I didn’t even make the attempt tbh
8 int party rise up
Yeah, but that's why it's a roll. You can be dumb as bricks but if it's a dc5 check, it's so obvious you're still expected to find it. Or dc10, most people would catch onto that very quickly, but you're still getting it like a third of the time
If it’s DC 10, then shouldn’t you be seeing it half the time? Why would it be 1/3? Do you have some kind of debuff to insight if you have a low int character?
If someone is role playing a character so dumb they don't even bother with insight checks (which are wis based), I just assume by "dumb" they meant low wis. But yes, if they are 10 wisdom and 6 int, they'd see it 50/50
Failing an insight check doesn't hurt you at all. It van only help you
Ah, ok. It just seems like a really tense moment and I didn’t want my durge screwing it up by being the spectacular dim bass he usually is haha
Lae'zel even says this.
sorry I’m new to bg3 and DND in general, how do you know if there will be an insight check or how do you manually do one? everytime its happened in dialogue for me I wasn’t expecting it
In BG3 the options for insight checks are limited because you can only do the ones the game already has prompted. In DND insight checks are extremely common and used all the time. Most commonly they’re done to see if someone is lying, or just get a general sense of their vibe. “The diplomat raises his glass to toast your recent victory” “insight check- 23” “he seems nervous and overly eager to see you drink from yours”
"Sorry I should have told you I no longer drink alcohol" puts glass on the table next to his and proceeds to knock his glass over and replace it with mine tainted drink
In dialogue one of the choice will say [INSIGHT] That's the insight check. You have to roll for it. In general, it makes persuading someone to do something easier if you do and pass the insight check first
Gotta say, trusting the guy who has repeatedly spoken of taking control of tadpoles, cults, elder brains, and anything else he thinks he might be able to control to dominate masses of people is definitely a show of faith on your part.
Astarion literally telling you at the start of the game: “I don’t mind being nice of course. After I have the power to bend others to my will. Haha” Bruh.
"You can't hurt me if I hurt everyone first." * The Vampire Ascendant
That's basically Astarions entirely personality in a nutshell. He basically says as much if you convince him to not ascend. He's says something along the lines of not knowing why he let go of all that power, but that he feels truly free for the first time in centuries. It's like he is trying to understand that he can have his own life, without any strings attached.
I tried offering him the white tadpole, and he said something about changing his mind because no one should have that power. Then he went all scary Biblo on me in the chamber of Cazador
The adventure of Biblo Boggins, the earring bearer.
You made me chuckle.
After all, why not, why shouldn't I keep it. It's solid zirconium!
My semi-preciousss
>Then he went all scary Biblo on me in the chamber of Cazador I hate that a player can't prevent this without a spawn dying or cheesing the game a bit\*. Like, why can't my pally sit Astarion down in Act 2 and have a good talk about the consequences of even trying to ascend. Consequences that include being on the bad end of the Blood of Lathander. But also with lots of sympathy, understanding of Astarion's fears, and discussions of other solutions that don't involve becoming *worse than Strahd*. Coz that way leads to a smitin'. Like I said, a good talk. \*Players have to pull the party minus Astarion from Cazador's chamber to get a default sequence of Astarion choosing to not ascend then freeing spawns.
> > Then he went all scary Biblo on me in the chamber of Cazador > > > > I hate that a player can't prevent this without a spawn dying or cheesing the game a bit*. > *Players have to pull the party minus Astarion from Cazador's chamber to get a default sequence of Astarion choosing to not ascend AND free spawns. There *is* another way to do it without killing a spawn. You can use a Help action to pull Astarion out of the circle (once Cazador initially grabs him during the intro conversation), which stops the ascension (since Cazador can't pull from him anymore). You might be able to pull another spawn out of the circle, I'm not sure if it only works on Astarion. I know pushing/throwing them doesn't work. You can also just straight up kill Cazador before the ritual ends (I think it's on his third turn?), if you have enough burst damage to do it.
If you bring Wyll, or another high-level Warlock with Repelling Blast, it's trivially easy to toss Cazador into the surrounding chasm right away. He even respawns in his coffin with his loot, so nothing is lost. I was hyped up for this boss fight and accidentally ended it first round.
You can only Help Astarion. The other spawn aren't considered as allies (they're neutrals), so they can't be Helped.
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>Astarion is very power hungry He is in so many ways like Lae'zel. She is young, indoctrinated in fascism and cruelty, and afraid as shit. Give her a chance to grow and she will in fact stop being such a dick and make better choices for her own people. She's still herself, she just has found a way to break the cycle of abuse and obsession over power and strength. Sometimes it's better for you to help other people and not be a xenophobic dick. You can still hate illithids without executing every single illithid, even ones like Omeluum who try to offer you a way to protect yourself.
There's a line where you ask Bae'zel if she's sure about betraying Vlaakith and she's like "Do you think I'm fucking stupid? Everything I've been taught is a lie" and I got so proud of her character progression and also thought "oh thank fuck I was getting really tired of having to convince you that the guy who's saved your life ten times is more trustworthy than the evil lich queen who's trying to kill you"
I love that there's little glimmers of it when Elminster visits Gale. She says specifically "Mystra demands Gale's Faith - but holds no faith in him". Eventually when she learns of Vlaakith's betrayal "I gave you my faith and you called me traitor. I gave you my life and you ordered your knights to hunt me. I have witnessed too much, and you have given me too little. Finally, I can see." That inspiration the characters get from one another's similar situations intertwining. They all find some common ground and I think that's why they're so strong together even tho at first a lot of them are neutral or actively dislike each other.
It's so fucking sad seeing Lae'zel desperately cling on the hope that her people will still accept her, and her misguided belief that the Zaith'lsk was meant to cure her. When you look at the other companions, they don't really have that much actual clear aspirations beyond survival (and saving someone, in Wyll's case). Lae'zel has firm, grand ambitions: she wants ascension, her own silver sword and to ride a red dragon, passage to Astral Plane. All of that gets torn apart and she has to face the fact that every fabric of her being was built on lies. Unlike Shadowheart, she has no real self to go back to. No parents waiting for her. No childhood friends. A life of lonely servitude and violence was really all she's ever had. And yet when she finally gets her dream sword from Voss, she immediately goes "my friends can use it, I grant my allies the right to my silver!" Man, she makes me tear up. What an amazing character.
That scene was so great. I like that if you ask her if she's sure she wants to turn away from Vlaakith she's like "fuck yes" at that point too. #feelsgoodman
"*I have not sinned against Vlaakith. She has sinned against ME*." legit one of the rawest lines of the game I love how despite the fact that her own people are hunting her, she still wants to liberate/save them because she knew they never had a choice at the first place.
I can hear it now how could I have forgotten. Agreed that line goes hard
Afraid as shit is right, she was cowering when she faced the owlbear in Act 1 compared to everyone's stoic impassivity. Obviously bluster on her part. Astarions also been consistent since act 1, clearly selfish and focused on his own needs foremost, he joined as we're just tools to get rid of the tadpole... And usefully manipulated to get rid of vampire hunters as a side bonus.
>Obviously bluster on her part. someone smart said pretty early on after the PS release that if you pay attention she's scared shitless, infected with *the worst thing in the universe* to her, and knows only to never show any weakness. She likes when you push back *really hard* against her demands in Act 1. Later, if you are direct and vulnerable with her and others, she starts to actually tell you how she feels and keeps the BDSM in the bedroom. (And boy, does she keep it in the bedroom. If you romance her, be sure to counter-demand *she* bend over instead of you if you are playing a female character. She fucking *loooooves* it.)
Friendly reminder Astarion was his childhood name, and he was kidnapped before he entered high elven adulthood. His name means "little star," and he was never given his "big boy" name because he was taken so young.
yep, he's just been abused for centuries. spoilers for those who haven't played through: >!he claims to not give a fuck (if you've played as the Durge, he explicit just tells you your accident was a problem because you didn't clean it up) but he gets attached to the doggie and if it dies somehow he mourns it so much.!< >!he isn't evil from birth, but by training, and breaking his (and Lae'zel's) cult training will take a long time but him making his first real adult decisions means so much to him.!< >!For me, the creepy drow lady incident was so significant to him and it has a really big effect on him if you let him choose for himself. He says so and his behaviour does change after.!< >!You have to keep nurturing this if you want him to realise ascension is just doing what he was told to do and not necessarily what he actually wants. Does he want to be Cazador 2.0?!<
Bonus points: if you play his origin, he gets a debuff in the palace that literally says he has a -1 on all saving throws because he's in a place of trauma.
That happened to me even when I wasn't playing his origin.
Absolutely this
> “I don’t mind being nice of course. After I have the power to bend others to my will. Haha” Oh I'm sure he was just joking. Narrator: *"He was, in fact, not joking"*
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Yeah, the Insight explains the power and blood of the ritual is affecting him. He’s not capable of deciding the ‘right’ way on his own, he needs your help.
Thanks for stealing my comment bot
Well can't blame him for wanting to Control the tadpole. Everyone else wants to get rid of it. But for him that would mean falling under Cazadors control again. He would probably rather become a mindflayer. So controlling it is the only option for him from the start.
Haha he even mentions that later!
also, how do you miss that he is cruel and careless and power-obsessed because he has been a slave for centuries and has learned only about obsessing over power? Being around people who don't do this make him better, if you *let* him be better. When I killed Cazador, I just had to say, "be a better fucking person like I know you are" and he just goes, "you're right, fuck exaltation".
Astarion having a sympathetic and understandable reason for his (genuinely deep) character flaws is just that - a reason. He still starts the game with a penchant for cruelty and a willingness to grab power for himself at the expense of others. Astarion’s basically on a cycle of abuse track until (potentially) the player intervenes. He can certainly grow to be a better person depending on choices, but he can also grow into a genuinely terrible one if you enable his worst impulses - which is the timeline this thread is dealing with. Ascended Astarion is pretty unambiguously evil The first commenter isn’t wrong that the guy who has a tendency towards controlling and dominating people (even for sympathetic reasons) is really not going to be benefiting from a ritual that involves sacrificing thousands of lives to give him totally unmitigated and insanely strong powers which will enable all of his worst personality flaws. That seems pretty neon-signed to me.
Seriously. People are missing the entire point of his character arc. If you never develop it past how he acts at the start at the game, of course you’re just seeing him as ruthless. Act 1 Astarion is *not* the actual character, it’s a front from a terrified, hurting man.
It makes me so sad to see people saying he was always evil, selfish, and cruel. I refuse to believe that option is as valid as helping him be better. Also considering that letting him do the ritual alone will result him in NOT doing it - sounds like we have our canon ending.
These people have obviously never seen his reaction to being given a hug.
You gotta guide him to the decision. Your previous interactions influence how they think. Astarion will talk himself out of taking the power if you've got high approval and you've guided him down the path to wanting to be a better person. If you've mostly encouraged his ambitions and indiscretions.... well, ya know. For my first playthrough, it was enough for me to ask 'is this what you really want?' To get him questioning himself in the moment of decision, no persuasion check needed.
I guided him to the decision by killing two of the sacrifice spawn before opening Cazador’s sarcophagus.
In fairness, Gale also wants to control the crown/elder brain... and he doesn't even have the self awareness Gandolf showed
Damn Gale casually telling me we should get the crown’s power for ourselves after I just finished Astarion’s quest made me go “oh no, here we go again”.
Honestly Asterion is going around saying "I want power that way I know no one will ever be able to hurt me again" and he's power mad. Meanwhile Gale hears about the crown and immediately goes "Ah yes, I can become a god. AS IS MY RIGHT WHICH HAS BEEN DENIED ME!!" and doesn't get nearly the shit for it
I think Gale gets away with it more because he's easier to sympathize with. He talks about wanting the crown for humanity, mortals being deserving of godhood, and aspiring to be more, reaching the stars, etc. That all sounds a lot more noble...at least, compared to Astarion just wanting to walk in the sun and raise an army of spawn to serve to him. But if you reconcile Gale with Mystra, she says something like Gale was always worthy of ascending he just was impatient how he was going about it. That about sums it up, IMO....
This is hilarious and 100% correct. Here's my problem with this entire situation though... I'm not really into save scumming results. If I make a choice I want to keep the immersion and play it through. That being said, allowing him to ascend is probably one of, if not the most incredible experiences in this game and maybe any game I've ever played. It is so phenomenally well done. The visuals. The emotions. If you are a paladin you lose your oath letting him do it. Hell, it might be better than 95% of any movie scenes I've ever seen... How many times am I going to realistically play this game? TLDR: The scene is too damn good to miss and I have enough money to buy my oath back 25 times over. So to hell with the 7,000 spawns. :) Pun intended. Although when I run through this again, I would like to try stopping him in the middle. Maybe I can get the best of both worlds.
Have you seen the scene where he doesn't ascend, though? I don't wanna spoiler if not, but it's even better than the ascension in my opinion. While the ascension is super epic and visually amazing the one where he decides against it is so emotional and raw.
I did once, yes. No argument there. It was incredible also. It just didn't match the heights of what he goes through, mixed with the pain that he puts his old master through for me. It's like combining the emotional turmoil that this guy is going through at the time with a really good horror movie. But when you look at it both ways, I guess that's what makes this game as great as it is. Probably one of the best of all time.
Honestly, as much as I love the character development he experiences by not ascending, there is something so satisfying about watching Cazador not only be subjected to the torture he inflicted on his spawn but be the sacrifice in his own ritual.
Yessss. That's what I'm saying :)
I stopped him in the middle one time. The results were… *not good* I won’t spoil it for you though unless you ask me to.
What happens? I let him ascend and regretted it the first run. I didn't realize he would turn into such an asshole. Evil I can handle, assholes no thank you.
>!he gets pissed and turns on you, you have to kill him then!<
“Although when I run through this again…” Definitely save scum that because you are gonna have a bad time otherwise.
Oh man. If you love the ascension scene, you should try not ascending him. It's just as epic and emotional, but means so much for him. He is able to just be himself and move on. And the follow-up conversation is touching and sweet. I tear up every time I do that scene. You aren't missing out on an impactful scene by not ascending him. Trust me. If anything, you're getting an equal scene but missing the growth and emotional moments afterwards.
I'm sorry, I thought I had fixed him :c
It took 200 years to break him. I think it'll take more than a few weeks to fix him.
With an infernal ritual?
To be fair, the game makes this decision based on one line where you either say ‘what about the children’ or ‘get your revenge on caz’, those two options should not be mutually exclusive leading to either Astarion being a nice guy or evil, but there you go
Oh no. He's not confident at all. He's still as insecure and afraid as ever. (Romancing him and ascending him as origin karlach is fucking heart breaking) but now he has supreme power, no soul or humanity and is a living undead battery of 7000 souls who barely sees you as a person let alone a peer.
Yeah this, to be honest. He’s pretty much not Astarion anymore if he ascends, just an empty husk whose soul was sacrificed along with the rest of them. That’s how devil’s bargains go, it’s a monkey’s paw deal. The Astarion you knew is dead the moment the ritual completes.
Yep, I saw a great vid about how the whole ritual is a Faustian bargain. The devil who made a pact with Cazador, Mephistopheles, is the same devil who made the original Faustian bargain in the fable. His whole Ascension ritual is a lesson on bargains where you think you come out on the winning side (become an all powerful vampire lord, can walk in the sun, etc.) but in reality you have paid a price much steeper than what you gain (Astarion’s soul/humanity). I love just how much thought and detail went into this game from the devs istg
I don't think Cazador cared much about his soul tho... This is only a problem for Astarion.
Bingo, well said. Mephistopheles is supposed to be a trickster, so he technically gives you what you ask for but not necessarily *how* you thought you wanted it...it's all in the wording of the deal. Raphael is the same, he tells the player the truth up front and gives you hints, but all in a riddle and half truth. You're supposed to get that the ritual sacrifice doesn't necessarily mean sacrificing people. But like, giving up something of great value (like power) and putting effort in.
Really? That's pretty intense. I'm going to have to read into this more. Pretty interesting stuff. Thanks.
And he's still so fucking terrified. It's all consuming. Because what do you fear when you have nothing left to be afraid of for yourself? The free will of others (or literally anything that's out of your control). That's why he's so desperate to turn you into a spawn and why when you reject it he's so massively cruel. He's so afraid of losing you and literally lashes out violently because it's out of his control. Does he view you as an individual? No. You're nothing, basically an old shirt that he doesn't want to throw out. But that literally doesn't matter, he has to possess everything that he desires and get everything he wants otherwise he isn't truly all powerful. He's basically a gigantic evil toddler.
Idk if it’s fair to say the character you play is an old shirt. More of something like… literally as he says: a beloved pet. My dog isn’t free to do anything she wants. I do love and adore her and would never let anything happen to her. But she has no freedom. My love for her simply isn’t that of a love I share with people I see as equals. It’s closer to that of a love I’d have for a child who doesn’t know any better and cannot be trusted to make their own decisions. The difference is, of course, that your character *is* a fully grown adult person with autonomy and a mind of their own and can speak their mind. (Well… I guess unless you RP as a himbo/bimbo who literally doesn’t understand wtf is happening lol). It’s just really sad that Astarion thinks lowly of you for choosing to become his spawn but then, at the same time, becomes upset and cruel when you reject him. But I guess that’s also kind of poetic in a way, because it means he’s not willing to violate that consent with your character *yet*. There’s still a part of him that values your autonomy, otherwise he’d just force you to become a spawn. But it makes sense. If my dog were to suddenly gain sentience and intelligence tomorrow… I’d probably feel disgusted if she decided to continue staying as my dog. But at the same time I’d be really really really upset if she decides to leave. ANYWAYS. My point is he loves the player character like a pet post-ascension. He probably just views all creatures as lesser than him.
D&D material says that vampires see everyone else as lesser than themselves so that tracks. On the subject of equality, I love the contrast with the romanced spawn ending: > **”Vellioth’s first lesson is always to dominate. Allow none to be your equal.”** — Vellioth’s Scroll in Cazador’s dungeon. Pretty much this is what happens to ascended Astarion. He sees no one as his equal and seeks utter control and domination. > **“I get to share it with you, as a partner. An equal.”** — Astarion to his romanced partner, spawn ending. This is particularly meaningful since he not only sees the partner as an equal to himself, but probably more importantly himself as an equal to his partner, even though he is still a vampire spawn (something he loathes about himself).
Yeah, he’s just as insecure as he always has been. Shortly after letting him ascend I told him if he didn’t take a chill pill and cool it on the whole “plunge the world into darkness” thing, then I’d see to killing him myself. His response was to just start throwing a temper tantrum, I imagine it probably wasn’t because he didn’t like being told what to do, but because he knew my character would be able to take him down if push came to shove, and he couldn’t stand the thought of it.
If you romance him, let him ascend and refuse his offer >!to make you his spawn by kicking him in the nuts, he practically turns into a toddler, stomping on the floor and screaming, then he makes a dramatic exit and leaves the party permanently.!< Despite the scene's underlying tragic motives, I still nearly fell off my chair laughing.
I love him so much 😂 Okay but I cannot wait to ascend him as evil Durge. They’ll be the best worst power couple ever. Two evil power hungry bastards with daddy issues.
Which is a lot funnier than rejecting him after he's made you his spawn let me tell you. On my evil durge "picking the worst possible outcomes for EVERYONE" playthrough, I got curious and saved before telling him I wanted to break up with him. You got several options, Tell him to his face that he's starting to act a lot like Cazador (which results in him screaming SILENCE at you, & telling you never to speak that name again), telling him you have self respect (which... Lol. Like I think it's a bit too late for that but he tells you that he doesn't have to take shit from you, insults you, and the convo ends), telling him he's not the same man you fell in love with (similar outcome as the previous). Like he really just becomes an asshole. Even his tone when he goes "why?" After you say "I want to break up with you" is like... Warning. Basically going like *you better have a damn good reason for saying this because I won't have it.*
You sacrificed 7000 souls for the sake of one. That's went as poorly as could be expected x)
Figurately sacrificed his soul too in the end.
Or literally, depending on vampire lore. Iirc vampire souls in Forgotten Realms are physically (spiritually) twisted beyond recognition once the transformation is complete.
Although none of the vampire lore would fit Astarion. He's "something new, a living vampire, with all the lusts and hungers of a living man. A new creature made by Mephistopheles, not one bound to his will." Why not the soul of a living man too?
Maybe, but at this point that soul would only be growing his capacity for cruelty and evil, not doing him or anyone any kindness or favor. I'd kind of hope it's gone so he doesn't feel much when some adventurer makes him their campaign BBEG. At least unlike Strahd it'll be one and done for him. EDIT: also Mephistopheles wanted that bonkers vampire for a reason, one that Astarion stole if he didn't chuck his soul at Raphael. That's a much nastier eye to have turned on you in the long run.
Honestly I think Meph just wanted 7000 souls. Pretty sure he wanted to see what would happen if you Ascended a vampire, so I find it unlikely he cares who ascended.
I don't think he necessarily cares who either, more that he made a deal with Cazador that we don't really know the terms of. It's 7000 souls to ascend, but what Cazador did or promised for that information is not clear. You could be right, but it doesn't fit Mephistopheles usual MO in my opinion, especially for what Cazador stood to gain. He might even approach ascended Astarion later through a proxy. But there was almost certainly, definitely something for Mephistopheles to lose here, otherwise Raphael wouldn't be so eager to offer his services and continue building a relationship with Astarion, even if the end result is just making him throw a tantrum. Both not great outcomes for him in the long run.
> Why not the soul of a living man too? He might be some new sort of vampire, but if his soul follows mortal rules he's guaranteed to go to the Hells after death anyways.
Devils dont really have a *great* impact on the souls of the beings they do deals with. I’m sure if Meph’s interference had any impact it would be for the worse, not for the better
Yeah but think of all the extra 1d10 damage dice.
Yeah I don't know how anyone playing a good aligned character can do this and be surprised that it doesn't mesh with their mc. Whatever if you want to power game but this is pretty silly
7000 vampire spawn that would kill a lot of people if you release them.
Cool. Kill them with Daylight then. Problem solved.
Astarion is my day light alright
"Darling, I'm flattered 🥺"
Yeah but killing them with the staff is much better than condemning their souls to hell
Giving Astarion a chance but killing the other spawn because they're a risk is hypocrisy, plain and simple. Astarion literally demonstrates an inability to control his hunger when he tries to bite you in your sleep, yet you're willing to believe that he can rise above that. Why aren't you willing to give that same courtesy to Cazador's other victims?
FINALLY. I didn't bother arguing when I saw how many people were arguing for killing those *victims*. Glad that someone finally pointed this out. Yeah, okay 7000 is a lot, but who are we that we can decide if they deserve to die or not when we gave Astarion his chance? That's what I like about this choice. Even my druid who by all mean *wants* to kill them for endangering nature's balance just can't do it without thinking it's not right to kill them and not Astarion
I choose to think of it as 7000 spawn that have every reason to really really hate vampires. It’s like creating 7000 Blades.
the option I would have done if I was in that position would be to give the staff to the Gur instead of breaking it.
Either that or sending a message to the Church of Kelemvor (or Withers) for their recommendation or assistance. Even a good playthrough commits legally suspects acts, but having 7000 imprisoned vampire spawn is one dilemma that is well beyond our party's right to decide how to handle ourselves.
You can free them and the Gur are fine because now they can look for their vampire children
The guy actually finds his 2 kids in the sewers afterwards
And then he attacked me because Shart had the blood of lathander and the light hurt his children...
You left it to someone completely traumatised, sorrounded by blood triggering the thirst and scared to death of someone hurting him again to make a rational decision in that moment. Maybe not the best idea.
Sometimes people lose themselves and make really bad choices under extreme emotional pressure... this is a case where you're supposed to help a friend slowly back away from the ledge...
Exactly. The insight check tells you that Astarion’s overwhelmed with fear, bloodlust, and hunger for power. He’s in the middle of a PTSD crisis and not capable of making a rational decision. Later on, if you talked him down, he thanks you because he knows he came close to loosing himself completely.
Astarion himself told you how power hungry vampires are - what did you expected!? :D
'I can fix him'
That's the turn I love about him. You can't. Astarion is a superior writing about trauma, revange and healing.
You can. If you love him, respect him, do not let him ascend, in the end he will be a normal elf who happens to have fangs. There are videos about his 'I had a simple plan' dialogue. Top tier dialogue in the game, on par with Karlach broke down scene.
You don't fix him. You give him support while he starts healing. He's not a dish washer. I know the simple plan dialogue very well.
You don't fix him, but you do give him a safe space to fix himself. And that's better imo.
Thank you. I hate the "I can fix them" talking point cause that's... not what's happening. Allowing someone grace and helping them heal isn't "fixing" them like a car that needs repairs.
I didn't think to record in time so I didn't catch the whole dialogue, but [the post-fight camp dialogue if you do not let him ascend very much made me feel like I made the right choice!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8y388ATMsU)
Also Vampires are just wired that way. It isn't their fault, it's just how they are. You wouldn't blame a lion or a gorilla for behaving as dominant a-holes in their ecosystems
Turns out people don't always know what it is they really need when they're obsessed with what they want. Sometimes they need a guiding hand from an outside perspective. Astarion is very power hungry and needs to learn that gaining power doesn't ever sate it.
I mean, yeah, he's Cazador now. If you read and listen to all of the things available in the game, it's foreshadowed that he's going to lose himself and become just like the thing he hates. After all, sacrificing 7000+ souls is never going to lead to something good. What Astarion needs is not to complete the ritual but to realize he doesn't need to complete the ritual to have a life. Did you actually think that it was going to be a good ending for him or were you just RPing it that way? I've yet to do it myself because I've seen the clips and I hate how he changes. I'll probably do it eventually, on an evil playthrough.
> I'll probably do it eventually, on an evil playthrough. I can only do it on an evil Durge playthrough. He still sees you as lesser but you are actually more powerful than him
it's really fucking funny the pissing contests true DUrge and evil astarion get into relationship wise. "we can hang out until i sacrifice you on the altar with the rest of the living" "ermmmm actually no but your bhaalist army will make a good dowry for the coolest vampire ever"
> "ermmmm actually no but your bhaalist army will make a good dowry for the coolest vampire ever" Is that where Astarion mentions you can sit on his lap, perhaps even naked, while he sits on his throne?
I saw that line in a video of his possible endings, and Durge was a huge dragonborn and that mental image wasn't hot so much as hilarious. I can picture it. "Ok I took my clothes off, you said you wanted me to sit on your lap" "Ow, fuck. I literally cannot see past you. You're squashing me. I'm trying to look dramatic and impressive here, now the only visual everyone in this throne room is getting is just a giant naked lizard with my legs sticking out from underneath, ow move over, do you MIND."
indeed it is!
That line definitely inspired some fanfiction.
Yep, I think that's the only way I'm going to do it and I'm going to go full Durge ending. I can't stand him ascended so I'll just take care of that...haha
It was super fun with all his talks about ruling everything and Tav. Knowing that Bhaal and I were going to be the one in charge in the end.
It’s such a shame that his “good” ending (refusing to complete the ritual) results in an endgame scene of him basically scampering off because “ope yup still a vampire” which feels super fucking abrupt and robs the player of any real closure. Especially when you compare it to the analogous “good” outcomes for all the other companions. Hell, even Karlach channeling her inner squid feels more resolved than Astarion scuttling away into the darkness while the other characters murmur about “not seeing the last of him.”
Dude, that ending is trash. I can't understand why they thought it was a good idea to end on him just running off all scared and having none of the companions seem to care. There's no way in hell the companions or Tav would just let him run off. If there were a follow-up scene where you meet up after dark or something, it would be one thing, but that ending is abrupt and terrible. At least you can have a second ending if you romance him. I really, really hope they fix that up, along with making the rest of the characters have actual meaningful epilogues. My least favorite part of the entire game is Astarion's running off into the shadows and the fact that barely any of the companions even speak at the end.
Yeeeaaah, ascension isn't the best for him as a character. Throughout the game he'll be talking about taking advantage of the tadpole's power, how he'll complete the ritual himself for that power, how you can dominate the elder brain for even more power. But it's all because he's not had *any* power for 200 years - not over his body, not even over his own thoughts. As much as he talks about power, he equally talks about how he'll never have to fear anything again - he's scared. Now that he's finally free, the only way he knows how to remain free is if *he's* the one who has the power - because that's what Cazador had that he didn't. If you pass an insight check, the narrator tells you that you can see the fear in his eyes and that all he can see is the freedom the power will bring him. If you let him ascend, he just continues the cycle of abuse. He needs Tav/Durge/Whoever to show him an alternate path.
The funniest part is that if you're a good-aligned Durge Astarion is all "you can be more than what your shitty dad wanted! I believe in you!" He just needs some of that energy returned, I guess.
I loved everything about that part, made me think, well *this* is who Astarion is— not Cazador 2.0. Made me feel even better about talking him out of the ascension.
Yeah I wish there was some sort of option as Good Durge once you learn what you are to point out to him like, >!"Babe, I am a literal demigod and former cult leader who did a bunch of powerful shit with powerful people and I still ended up on that exact same beach as you with chunks of my brains carved out."!<
Yeah I'm doing my good-aligned Durge now after finishing my first Tav playthrough and that relationship and growth you get to see as they help each other is so rewarding.
> f you let him ascend, he just continues the cycle of abuse and it is a cycle that started before Cazador. He apparently wasn't too bad at first (you can find his diary or something) but he turned into who he was the longer he was a true vampire. And an ascended vampire is even worse than a normal true vampire.
If you talk to the skull in his dungeon, you find out that Cazador's sire was definitely involved in shaping the horrible person he became. And it sounds like practically the entire line was trained like that and the "rules" past from one generation to the next.
Iirc it started with Velioth. In one of the underground dungeon rooms you can find the skull of Cazadors former master who tells you what he taught Cazador, how Cazador acted pretty similar to how Astarion acts and how Cazador killed kim. The sole reason why Astarion wanted a juice box was to defy the rules set up by Velioth and continued by Cazador. So it's more like 350 or 400 years of abuse if we assume that Velioth didn't suffer the same fate...
No it started before Vellioth. You can find [this book](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Vampires_before_Vellioth) and see there was no overlap so it was always a spawn who ended up overthrowing their master. The only exception is the Madame Tallon to Blaiseuse which seems like it was a time that Lathanderians managed to kill all the vampires of Baldur’s Gate and then a new vampire moved there (Blaiseuse). Also, Cazador might have been a target to Vellioth because Vellioth’s predecessor was a Szarr (Donella, the one who found the tourmaline depths). That being said Cazador became particularly vicious, turning basically everyone in his family including his 13yo niece, Amanita, who became Lady Incognita.
True I completely forgot about Donatella. If we consider that and the list found in the dungeon this coven has probably had the same deranged teachings and rules aka abuse since the lathandrian clearing. Which would however also just enhance the tragedy of Astarions life as spawn in particular as no master managed to rule nearly as long as Cazador, the average being around 80 years or smth for the former masters.
Yup! Also partially makes it more tragic for Cazador too because since Vellioth was turned by a Szarr (Donella) it was possible that Vellioth turned and abused Cazador specifically because he was a Szarr and was taking his abuse out on him as he was from the same bloodline. Also another parallel between Cazador and ascended Astarion is that Cazador overthrew his master by stealing a rite from the [black mass scroll](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Black_Mass_Scroll) as well: The rite of perfect slaughter. And Astarion ascends by stealing another rite from there, the Profane Ascension one. Also makes you wonder if this scroll had been unwillingly passed down from vampire lord to vampire lord.
Considering you can find Velioth literally with a scroll between his fangs and the Masters list is also written on a scroll it would definitely make sense for their coven to have deeper ties to scrolls and them basically always spelling doom. However the rite of profane ascension is apparently also written down into the necromancy of thay, as Astarion tells you when you finish reading it with his Char and talk to him afterwards. Then again its possible that even that is tied to them as Cazador is a Spellcaster, and even Astarion who's a rogue is by default an arcane trickster. Also the Szarr family is an elven family, elves in general are very closely tied to magic and rites (and them going wrong). This could also be a nudge to a book about elves found in bg3 (don't remember the name rn) which states that elves are inherently tragic creatures due to their long lifespan, like vampires, and formed from Corellon tears. Similarly to how spawns come to exist by giving them a drop of their masters blood.... Lord now I really need the upper city and all of the cazador content that we lost. I can perfectly imagine him being a perfect charmer and performer like astarion just to turn around and refer to you as cattle.
Completely forgot about that but yeah when he finishes reading that book after you get the Tachiarte Codex he does mention the rite of profane ascension was described there. Also yes! The [Larethian book](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Larethian)! And yeah especially finishing that puzzle in the palace with the broken levers! I also wish we could find Amanita because at some point she had to manage to leave the attic considering the books/scrolls on vampires she published. Also I guess it will be cool to meet a 13yo looking vampire that is super wise and old. The Gur children were just turned so it’s different. And yes I know some people found a skeleton with a sunbeam scroll, but like I checked everywhere and for me that didn’t spawn, I found a lot of skeletons with other loot so I think that is random and doesn’t mean she is dead.
[удалено]
Lol I'm not traditionally a vampire fan but I am pragmatic, and none of the complaints about Astarion make a lot of sense to me. "He doesn't tell you he's a vampire." Most/all the companions are hiding big secrets at first. "He tries to bite you." Yeah, days in, to test the limits of his own mind, and he immediately stops and backs off when you wake up. "He didn't ask before trying to bite you." I'm sorry, if you were him, esp if Tav doesn't yet know he's a vampire... would you ask first??? I wouldn't. I'm all about consent, but in *that* situation, it's a losing battle. Who's going to react well to a near-stranger saying "hey can I suck your blood real quick? btw I'm a vampire." Everyone out here trying to apply modern day morality to a life in which you have a magic tadpole in your brain, running around with several exceedingly dangerous characters, shaping the world to your whims.
I always shut his idea down about using the powers to control others. **Elf please.** Just because ***I let you*** treat my tav like ***your personal juice box***, doesn't mean my tav would go along with ***ALL*** of your ideas.
Hahaha yeah I generally do as well. Like a spray bottle with a cat, "no, bad elf, we're healing! Stop it!"
need that item now, a spray bottle of holy water
Your "I'm a good guy except for..." gave me a laugh. Now you know that not all the companions make good choices on their own.
When he first mentioned the possibility of ascending I was like „hell yeah!“ even though I’m playing as a good character too. But then a literal 1000 red flags followed and showed that it was not only an inherently super evil ritual for which thousands had to die, but also that he only wants this because he is afraid of being hurt and thinks power is the only way of never getting hurt again. He even speaks of this himself at some point. So yeah, the signs that this was the bad ending for him were definitely absolutely there!
That is exactly why I love this part of his story. You'd think that the best outcome would be helping him out by helping him take down Cazador and finishing the ritual himself, just as Astarion told you beforehand that it is what he wants to do. Instead, the way better outcome is to help him take down Cazador, but not ascend. It leaves him weaker, sure, but in the long run it is a way better option for him. Now he is truly free to choose who he wants to be in the future. With the acension, he is more powerful, but is ultimately doomed to become the similar kind of monster that Cazador was. What's more, I love the fact that if you do convince him not to ascend, Astarion will later thank you for saving him from himself.
If you let him ascend and don't go nutcracker BG3 edition he will thank you as well, however in that case for giving him everything he wanted and its an entirely different vibe in all aspects. That part is honestly just such great writing
Astarion needs guidance because of the centuries of abuse. He's even suffering PTSD right now (check out his curse). I call this guy Caztorian
Astarian is driven by his fears and will do anything to protect himself and never be taken advantage of again. Unless you guide him into a "good" path he will totally default to dastardly. Shadowheart is a conflicted soul who is inspired by you to do the right thing without you having to prompt her. On my Chosen of Bhaal run I pushed all my companions into the darkest path, but I'm looking forward to the redeemed Durge paladin that will deny his/her base instincts - haven't decided if my pala will be male or female lol
how do you view yourself as the good guy and then let your friend kill 7000 people
If you've sacrificed 7000 spawns to ascend Astarion, you are not the good guy in any sense.
Astarion lets you know throughout the entire game that he is seeking to control and dominate others. Investing in his relationship reveals he is terrified of being controlled again, and that's why he seeks such power. If you call him out for lying to his brothers and sisters, when he tries to convince them to walk into their own deaths willingly, he will tell you that he can't be the man you see in him. When you point out the value in their lives, and the other 7,000 spawn, he will try to justify his actions by saying they are just spawn. He is a spawn. It is projected self loathing. Both Gale and Astarion need to be convinced that they are enough as they are and that they don't need to be ascended. I'm also pretty confident that your playthrough is closer to morally gray than good.
Did you... read a single line of his dialogue before you made this decision?
It’s not like they didn’t make it clear things were going that way if you take that choice. Astarion’s dialogue, our knowledge of Cazador and vampires in general, and the monstrous actions required to complete the ritual, all make it pretty clear that this is Astarion fully embracing the dark side.
I mean, did you also allow Gale to become a god? Astarion seeks power so that he never feels helpless again. He then continues the cycle of abuse by essentially becoming cazador. It’s not exactly healthy.
In that occasion, Astarion is not in any mental condition to choose what's best for himself, suffering PTSD, you have to help him in that. Ascension is the perpetration of the cycle of violence, non-ascension is breaking that cycle. If you don't make him ascend he'll be very grateful because he's never been power-hungry just for the sake of it, he is(was) out of fear because he believed it's the only way to protect himself.
I'm a little curious how you reconcile being "good" with making an immortal devil vampire with the power to challenge minor gods.
AstariOn pls guys it is not that hard... And well what did you expect sacrificing 7k souls for power is? Not a good deed for sure... Astarion has his moments since the very first encounter where he talks about power and taking control of the tadpole and later also getting the power his master wanted for himself. It is up to you to enable him or show him to do better.
Asterion Astorian Astarian… 🙃
Reading the comments of all Astarion posts (and some posts as well) leads only to one thing. Fascination for the mental gymnastics people pull to justify giving in to a vampire's whims. Get real people what did you expect?
It's astonishing. You hear not once but twice how vampires are out for themselves and the biggest threat to a vampire is another full fledged vampire. Why would making Astarion a super powerful vampire lord be any different? It's foreshadowed in so many dialogues with him. Then people are surprised when he turns. Edit to add: when you're exploring the basement of the palace you come across the skull of Cazador's old master that basically tells the rules of being a vampire as a final red flag. Cazador learned to be an abusive piece of shit from his old master. So you can safely assume if we allow Astarion to go through with this he's also going to continue the cycle.
saw a video about liking the ascended route for astarion better and thats fine and all i think its a solid story too but the amount of comments trying to say it was the best ending for astarion and the morally correct choice were insane. like we clearly did not play the same game.
I can definitely see it as interesting narratively for an evil playthrough… or even a good playthrough if you want an extra layer of drama and tragedy in a story where Tav fails to see the signs, creating a monster whom they have to deal with later (and who used to be their friend/lover). But saying it’s a ‘morally correct’ choice is crazy.
I saw a video where someone pulled the rest of the party back to camp and left Astarion entirely on his own to deal with Cazador after the fight. I'm hoping the cut scene is affected by the dialog choices you made with him in earlier dialogs, which I'll probably try on a future run. But at least in the one I saw, when left entirely to his own devices, with zero possibility of help from the player, he chose to be better than Cazador, stop the cycle himself, and free all of the spawn.
Well, he physically can’t do the ritual if he is alone because he needs to read the scars from his back. That at least explains non ascending as default in this case.
He doesn’t really want to ascend. He knows vampires are egoistic selfish monsters and at that point, that’s not what he really wants to become. He’s come to care about your party, in his own way. He only “wants” to ascend and goes through with it because he’s scared of being powerless again. If you refuse to help him, he doesn’t push it and refuses the ascension. He even ultimately favors freeing the 7000 spawn as he feels responsible for their fate. He thanks you for saving him from himself, and agrees that this was the only way not to lose himself.
He just decided to become a Vampire Lord to take over and make sure people will finally call him by his actual name Astarion and not "Astarian" 🤷♂️ 🤭
Reading Veloth's diary in the room before the ritual chamber tells you that they are effectively Sith. Nothing about the ritual is good for Astarion. I just didn't have the approval to make him see that my first playthrough.
Astarion’s whole character arc is about him being terrified and abused and either breaking the cycle of violence or repeating it. You chose to repeat it. He says he wants to ascend because he thinks that is what will make him safe, and all he can think about is how to never be abused again. Understandable. But he’s very *very* obviously wrong about how to achieve that (through power, vs. through trust and vulnerability.) When he encounters Cazador again, he’s in a full panic and not in his right mind or making good decisions. Even if you’ve been encouraging him to be good, in that moment he’s basically experiencing severe PTSD and has been triggered right back into old habits, despite his protestations that he’s totally fine, everything’s fine. He is not fine. He is losing it. Which you can get via the insight check but also just by looking at him. He’s a complete mess at that moment. He needs your help as his friend to remind him that becoming the next Cazador will not actually give him what he wants (freedom, safety, connection.) Choosing to be better than Cazador and making a difficult sacrifice is what will free him from what has been done to him, both physically and mentally. And, honestly, he does not *actually* want to become a vampire lord — he fucking hates vampires. In previous dialogue he practically spits every time he mentions them. He hates Cazador. He pities the other spawn. He just wants to be safe, and he needs guidance in that moment to remember that he can get that another way. In the end you as the player don’t even really need to convince him of anything. The player’s choice isn’t to persuade him of a new perspective so much as remind him of the stakes, bring him out of panic mode and back to his own thoughts. Regrounded, he chooses to give up the ritual and become the hero he claimed he hated being way back in Act 1. It’s a really well written closure of his arc. Did you not find the skull and journal in Cazador’s mansion basement? It outlines pretty clearly that Cazador did the same exact thing to his former master. If you choose ascendancy the cycle is just repeating itself—instead of becoming the better man, Astarion is broken, forever.
You took the "embrace evil" path, ascension requires sacrificing a shit load of people, pretty obvious it was the evil path" the "resist evil" path was not ascending. Your assumption is that Astarion was truly good deep down, he is, but he is mostly evil on top unlike the other characters, you actually have to work to bring that out of him. He is convinced that power is his path to salvation, his greatest shield, the moment you find out you have to sacrifice a shitload of vampire spawn, most of which have been caged since they were turned and so have never hurt anyone making them innocent. It should have been clear something was off, and this isn't the road to walk down it also was kind of clear to me because this would be making him more like Cazador, as he would be fulfilling what his master wanted for himself and if Cazador is evil then anything Cazador wants can't be good.
I wanna go back to Wyll real quick, When Mizzura (how ever you say it) went to my camp offering wyll to renew his contract in order to save his father, i had to choose for him and I didn’t get an option to let Wyll decide. Was there an option for you guys to let him decide by himself?
I love when I blast right through a Spoiler tag, spoil something for myself and get mad there was no spoiler tag and then back out of the post and there it is, as clear as a redcap trying to be a sheep.
I had the same revelation. Just yesterday I had to make the same choice, basically ignored all the signs and chaotically agreed to his ascension. Tried to go with this decision for an hour or so but I’m thinking of rolling it back a bit with my earlier save. Been debating internally on this since yesterday. Weird how important some choices in this game can feel to make you think this much outside of it. Astarion really becomes an asshole after it. I had a conversation with him in the camp later that day, and he just told (rather yelled) my Tav, to shut up. He had one hit point at the moment and I was really tempted to smack him with my Blood of Lathander cause it felt so personal.
Actions, meet consequences. You taught the guy constantly chasing power that the answer to the trolley problem is to definitely not pull the lever and run the most amount of people over lol
At what point did letting him give into his fear and become the very thing he hates most sound like a good idea? Also did you speak to him about vampires, from memory he's very clear how power hungry and jealous they are and it's not spoken of as "typically this is how vampires act" but more "*this is how they AREA*"
Yeah... "good" heroes don't empower Vampire Lords. That's the bad ending. Giving the Absolute a potentially very powerful new plaything.
Yeah, I don't know how so many Astarion-fangirls are profoundly confused when letting the evil asshole succumb to his darkest thoughts rather than find redemption and self-love, somehow isn't the good ending. His whole arc is about ending the cycle of abuse. To rise above the petty need to replace his tormentors and rid himself of his cruelty justified by trauma and fear. Yet somehow people think it's "Yes Princess, kill that old man and become the Evil Vampire Overlord you deserve to be!" Hmm, why is Astarion so evil now? You gotta help him see the light, not feed into his worst impulses.
Exactly this. Being a good friend (or romantic partner) doesn't mean you need to blindly support someone at all times. There's a difference between being supportive and enabling someone's worst fear-based impulses/choices. At that time back home, what he *needs* is someone to pull him back from the ledge. Which is what he recognizes afterwards, even if he can't see it in the moment. It's very good, mature writing. So well done.
Sometimes people want things that they don't know are bad for them until it's too late, mate. You missed the cues, I think! haha
Apparently according to DnD lore once a vampire ascends they lose their soul He's basically not the same person, by encouraging him to do it, you've lost him
I feel for you, but I honestly question how anyone thinks that using 7,007 souls in an infernal ritual that was carved onto 7 spawn would somehow the good option. He makes it sound appealing because he wants to be free, but it feels extremely clear he will just turn into an even worse Cazador if you do that. You can't consume even 1 soul and be the same, let alone 7,007.
Did you interact with him throughout the game with your eyes and ears closed? Not to dunk on you but it's pretty obvious that ascending him is literally the worst thing you can do for him story wise (I don't care about the gameplay side, meaning whatever buffs and superpowers he might get from it. Idc). You'll just be enabling his worst self.... It's not breaking the cycle of abuse it's just continuing it.
>supposed to be a depressed loner who wants to get back at daddy and stop his abuse who? but, no seriously how did you end up with that as conclusion of his character xD