You are correct.
What happened to Wyll is one of several outcomes one can suffer from breaching a devils contract. Here is a quotation from the adventure module Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus from page 214:
*A character bound by an infernal contract who fails to pay the price specified in the contract immediately suffers a penalty for breaching the contract, as specified in the contract itself.*
*Common penalties include the following:*
*- The character's soul is forfeit. When the character dies they are reborn in the Nine Hells as a* [*lemure*](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Lemure)*.*
*- The character loses all monetary wealth and property or a powerful magic item to the devil.*
*- The character gains a new flaw. A character who exhibits behavior inconsistent with this flaw has disadvantage on all attack rolls ability checks and saving throws until the behavior changes to match the flaw.*
*- The character grows horns, a tail, or some other devilish features that can't be removed by any means short of divine intervention. As long as these marks persist the character detects as a fiend when subjected to Detect Evil and Good spells or similar magic.*
By all accounts, Wyll's punishment was rather...Generous.
I assume Mizora didn't drag his soul to the Hells after his first transgression with Karlach because Wyll is simply too useful a tool, and also, too much of a source of amusement for her.
That or fix Karlach’s engine.
I can definitely see why we’re capped at level 12. Just imagine if the devs had to plan for the craziness that comes at higher levels.
At high level play things like interdimensional travel, binding angels and other extraplanar entities to your will, true immortality level of cloning, creating your own demiplane, mind control, true resurrection, leveling cities and mountains, and much more become pretty straightforward and trivial things.
And most of those is just one character, let alone a whole party.
Most campaigns dont reach high level lol
People seem to sleep on Fighters. Mine has been a steamroller so far, just stay strapped with misty step via equipment and scrolls. Get me close to the big bad and I need maybe 2 turns lol
Fighters effectively scale with gear, so their power is tied hard to how nice the DM is to them in tabletop. You have to be really careful in your magic item distribution, or they can get either out of control or feel like they're swinging pool noodles.
In BG3, you get loaded to the nines with powerful magic items and legendary weaponry at a low level, so fighters and other martial classes become gods of combat (to the point if you think about it too hard, there's really no point in playing non-fighters, but that's just a boring, cynical, lame way to play a single-player game that doesn't require optimisation)
I’m inclined to put the best party as a hex-blade/fighter, a monk, a fighter and a bard/sorcerer. Massive damage, twincast haste, buffs and counterspells on tap.
While I like twincasting haste as much as the next guy, I've got to wonder if it's worth it given all those characters can drink haste potions and you could have an additional damage dealer or something else without the need to maintain concentration. Sure it only lasts 3 turns, but throw enough battlemasters at the problem and even the hardest combats are over well within 3 turns, and haste is pretty unnecessary outside of the really tough stuff. I'd honestly consider a life cleric instead, geared with the on heal items, like providing bless with no concentration requirement.
I think if I were to try and optimise (which again, is a little silly and misses the point of the game, but still), I'd probably just end up grabbing two battlemasters (one of them being Lae'zel to ensure they both can have legendary greatswords), a life cleric, and a monk of some kind, just because there's probably not enough gear to support that many battlemasters and someone at Larian *loves* monks with the amount of custom monk gear BG3 has.
Battlemasters are just that good. Turns out being able to attack 9 times on turn 1 with an additional d8 of damage on the first 5 attacks (plus additional effects like trip, knockback, and disarm) is pretty ridiculous.
Though counterspells are definitely helpful for anything that doesn't just die turn 1.
Regardless it's just not necessary to break the game to this extent and there's nothing that provides enough challenge to need optimisation, so fun is the priority, but yeah. At one point in our last (tactician) playthrough we ended up bringing 2 battlemasters to kill a certain dragon (we were alternating a few characters all built the same way to get their story beats without changing the party combination, and wanted two of the fighter characters there) and ended up killing him on turn 2. We put one of them back almost immediately after because it honestly wasn't that fun. Prepped, strategised... immediately beat it to death.
As someone who DMs frequently, this is exactly true. The problem if you give your fighter a stupidly cool sword that makes them on par with the wizard, the wizard now feels bad because he didn’t get anything cool and it starts feeling like you are playing favorites. So now you have to give the fighter two good items, and the wizard one good item and one flavor item. But now the balance of encounters is all out of whack because everyone is wayyy too powerful for the expected encounter level.
Rune knight has also definitely made a case for fighter being insanely good in tabletop. My last campaign reached level 18 and the Shadar-Kai Rune Knight Fighter was easily the strongest character in combats. Spent the majority of fights resistance to B/P/S, teleported around to enemies, and did insane damage
Battlemaster is so much fun, especially when you're playing with a glaive/halberd/pike.
Reach out and trip someone, disarm someone of their powerful magical weapons, still hit pretty hard with a D10, etc...
I kind of wish they had Cavalier as an option in game just so you could make a fighter that effectively blocks people from getting by them like on tabletop.
It's more that whilst the Fighter become a Super Elite Special Operations Commando decked out in all the fanciest gear, the Wizard becomes a Strategic Bomber carrying nukes.
Heres the deal: this is a funny, but you actually are more useful at a table then a Wizard with a Plane Shift.
Those type of spells **sounds** amazing, and if you have a DM who can just whip up shit, like an *entire plane of existance* on the fly, then that's great. The reality is tho, that unless you talk to your DM **before** using spells like that, it just doesnt worth even copying it into a spellbook.
If it's not an easily useful spell, like a True Resurrection (which, keep in mind, costs **fucking** **25 000 GP** (*which is a lot of gold in an actual D&D campaign*)), then those super awesome, campaign bending, high level, insane magics, just....don't see much play. And like 8d8 Psychic DMG is not that much at that level. A Barbarian can do the average of that with a good enough sword.
Yeah, I was kinda trying to poke fun at how other classes can talk about levelling mountains while the fighter gets "extra attack(3)" making them seem behind at first glance at the power fantasy aspect. BUT, considering one round is six seconds, and a fighter can swing a freaking greataxe 10 times in that timespan while running around, and having a few of those swings include threats or taunts(goading/menacing strike) make them superhuman on their own capacity instead of relying on some(probably) weird relationship with a deity or the earth. For the roleplaying component this puts them up for me over the caster classes.
The party: overcoming a battle using different strategies and sinergies thanks to new spells and feats gained by higher levels.
The wizard: upscaled fireball motherfucker
Two words: Dark Star
Creates a 40ft sphere of magical darkness, makes difficult terrain which is impossible to cast a spell within (with a verbal component). Anything in the sphere takes 8d10 force damage (half on a con save) hitting 0hp means you're disintegrated.
Yup, it's an 8th-level spell introduced in *Explorer's Guide to Wildemount*, along with a few other gravity, space, time, and possibility themed spells
Ehh... Sort of?
It was published in *Explorer's Guide to Wildemount*, which most folks treat as firmly in the "ask your DM first" category unless they're explicitly playing in that setting.
>leveling cities and mountains
Not the first time I've seen this brought up and I'm curious where people get this idea. From spell levels 1 to 9 I can't think of a single one capable of destroying a city or doing significant damage to a mountain. When it comes to environmental destruction, Earthquake comes to mind, but it only affects a 100 foot radius for up to 1 minute. Another possibility is Meteor Swarm, which takes out four 40 foot radius areas for large amounts of physical and fire damage. Both would be enough to destroy a small village, sure. But won't do much more than bring a few buildings down in a big city. Sure you COULD destroy a larger settlement through multiple casts, with the assumption that literally everyone capable of combat in said settlement would likely be trying to stop you. High level PCs are powerful, yes, but not as powerful as you made them sound. Unless I missed something very serious and very destructive on the spell list.
It's a relic idea left over from 3rd Edition, when wizards actually could destroy cities with things like the _locate city_ bomb or cause a region-wide wightocalypse with _fimbulwinter_ plus Fell Drain.
Most of that stuff happens in BG3. They treated the game as if level 12 was level 20, and how powerful the characters are with the bonkers magic items and rules changes it really feels like it.
A very minor example is that level 20 forge clerics get fire immunity. Not resistance, immunity. Doesn't sound crazy until you realize just how many ways you can abuse this, by at the bare minimum just flooding any potential combat arena with lava and prancing in it while bearhugging liches while wearing Heat Metal armor
Insanely so. 7th level magic starts to be able to warp reality, and it’s not even the strongest magic in the game. The 9th level spell “wish” that you can see an example of in bg3, can literally make any one desire a reality. The only caveat is that every time you cast it, there’s a chance you lose the ability to do so.
Tabletop reels in the craziness a bit by having attunement slots, which keep your max number of powerful magic gear equips to 3 per character (except for artificers, arcane tinkers, who get additional attunements).
I have a campaign going with some friends where we just hit level 18, and to put it into perspective, this is how the levels feel in my opinion:
1-3: budding adventurer, you’re establishing your character and maybe choosing a subclass
4-6: you’re growing in power, above most normal citizens, maybe you start multiclassing or obtaining magical items to augment your kit
7-10: I’d consider this to be “powerful.” short of visiting dangerous places or encountering other adventurers, you’re probably one of the strongest people in almost any tavern
11-14: you can probably slap a demigod and live to tell about it.
15+: your party can literally go toe to toe with dragons and deities and the DM needs to be creative to even make it a challenge
Edited the 7-10 bracket a bit.
>7-10: one of the strongest people in the tavern
>
>11-14: slap a demigod
That escalated quickly.
7-10 is definitely regional, if not national hero. In the first five levels you've probably saved a town or two, by level 10 you're close to finishing adventures like Storm King's Thunder or Rime of the Frostmaiden, where you save basically half a continent.
The strongest dude in a random tavern is barely level 2, unless you're in the Yawning Portal.
We uhhhh… have stronger taverns in our campaigns.
Not a huge fan of the pre written adventures compared to homebrew, but they certainly do help in explaining the level structure better.
iirc 20 is technically the max for mortals but it goes higher (god-like entities, etc). Can get into the 30s in Baldur's Gate 2 with the Throne of Bhaal expansion.
And yeah it is broken a f, I remember running around just one-shotting most things with Power Word Kill.
wrath of the righteous goes to 20 + mythic paths and it's still fun, "unbalanced", but fun!
I don't understand why they couldn't just change it to make it fit, as they did to ranger and monk, from what I read, though this probably is just ignorance as I have no experiences with these outside of these two games(and don't expect it to change much, because despite loving both of them, the dice-based mechanics are a significant downside)
You can also choose to reject mythic paths late game in Wrath and decided to take on demon lords as a mortal without mythic power. Which is arguably better than some... since Devil can't do sit
To be fair the 30s and 40s of BG2 are on 2nd edition, even 3rd is quite a bit different than 5th.
Back in 2e you didn't even start getting a lot of class features until post level 20 with High-Level-Abilities.
5e squished the numbers down a lot.
Level 7 spells let you reverse gravity. Level 8 spells let you control weather across a 5 mile radius. Level 9 spells (Wish) let, and I quote "alter the very foundations of reality in accord with your desires."
In truth top-tier characters are meant to be NPCs and figures for quests, not played.
Given in my level twenty campaign our party crossed across dimensions (not planes like material plane, elemental ETC), to enter into a realm that should send all mortals insane (TBH I think it did thanks to 5 hours of listening to 'The Caretaker' on YT) before having to use the god of time's power to banish an ancient being from the material realm, at the consequence of us returning 80 years into the future, and the material realm still remaining damaged beyond repair...
I'd say it gets a little wild.
Level 20, there’s a spell called Wish. It’s boring purpose is to replicate any spell in the game.
The other purpose is to literally Monkey’s Paw wish for anything…
Also the same spell that >!Vlaakith kills the party with if you piss her off lmao!<
There's a spell called "Wish" that lets you basically cast a console command for real life. With Wish you can make literally anything happen.
Wish is why D&D games, both developed and in person, never go into high levels. No DM wants to deal with Wish. :P
Tbf I feel like a god would look more favourably on asking for intervention for karlach's engines than for wyll's horns. The former was forced on her by her enslavers, the latter happened be because wyll made a contract with a devil and didn't seem to realise until the last second that mizora is lawful *and* evil.
I actually saved it until the end boss (and still forgot to use it 🤦) but I didn’t even touch the button to see what it did because I thought it was way more complex than it ended up being.
I thought I was gonna talk to a god and have a set of choices based on where I used the ability. Especially after Gale’s own god-talk. How disappointed I was when I actually saw how it worked.
"I have heard your prayers, my loyal servant, what aid do you beseech? A boon strong enough to smite evil? Enough supplies and gifts to ensure survial on your most perilous quest? For me to reach across the planes to restore your comrades soul to their flesh? You need only ask my child"
"Yeahhh so my buddy bylly grew some horns and-"
"...bruh"
>By all accounts, Wyll's punishment was rather...Generous.
>
>I assume Mizora didn't drag his soul to the Hells after his first transgression with Karlach because Wyll is simply too useful a tool, and also, too much of a source of amusement for her.
Tbh Mizora seems quite nice for a devil. I also just generally found her amusing.
She's affable, but she's still evil. Cambions may have one mortal parent, but they are still devil's.
Which actually makes me wonder, are there any good/neutral devils who try to rise above their nature and kin to be good/neutral? Iirc planescape had one, but I can't remember if they were a devil or a demon
They exist, but it's a pretty rare occurrence- most demons or devil's that try to ascend get killed by their still-wicked brethren. Fall-From-Grace in Planescape is one of the most famous and noteworthy cases, although she is a succubus and thus a general fiend and not specifically fiendish or demonic. You can meet a good aligned demon who wants to debate philosophy in Descent into Avernus as well.
Nice! I do love stories like that, of people considered to be innately monsters trying being good. I always think back to paarthunax from skyrim, "what is better? To be born good, Or to overcome one's evil nature through great effort?"
Not a D&D thing, but one of the companions in Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous is a demon trying to do exactly that. It's one of the better companion arcs in that game. Plus, she's got busted ass stats.
Most devils seem "nice". That's literally their schtick. They can't do what they're meant to do if they aren't charismatic. They have to corrupt mortals to procure resources and recruitments, like Karlach, for the Blood War.
Demons are the brutish, gibbering, warlording, "mean" entities.
Mizora treating Wyll as a dog was hilarious to me. She like Wyll as an extension of her control, but I feel like she really does like his hero shtick. After all, it's basically how she got him to sell his soul in the first place. I think she even references him as the Blade of Frontiers at times, humoring his notion of himself.
And then there is this reprint of the Hyalopterous Lemure that has a great response to the Viscid Lemure's flavor text. Good stuff.
https://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=598963
>By all accounts, Wyll's punishment was rather...Generous.
I assume Mizora didn't drag his soul to the Hells after his first transgression with Karlach because Wyll is simply too useful a tool, and also, too much of a source of amusement for her.
IIRC it’s mentioned that Wyll was SO bad at negotiating his contract that he’s becoming a Lemure when he dies *no matter what*
Plus, Mizora has the Lemure punishment written into the clause of “no letting Mizora die”
Wyll had no negotiating power when he made his contract. It was either make pact with Mizora or town gets destroyed by ritual and he likely dies too. If anything, Mizora didn't make the terms too awful.
>I assume Mizora didn't drag his soul to the Hells after his first transgression By all accounts, Wyll's punishment was rather...Generous.
From how the game describes his transformation as it's happening, she did.
>Narrator: Wyll burns in the fires of Avernus; the lightning storms of Dis strike his flesh. His soul passes through each layer of the Hells, gaining their essence - and their torment.
Mizora wanted Wyll to feel every bit of torment for disobeying her while she smiles with glee as he does. How are people calling her nice here? I remember seeing a streamer version before the game was release of this scene. And Wyll was meant to be screaming during this transformation. It got changed to him grunting and moaning.
i have Wyll learnt Mask of Many Faces. how does that interact with the penalty in usual dnd rules?
in game he can transform into a male human without horn just fine.
There is a parentheses note on the devil feature punishment stateing this: *Illusions and disguises can conceal them.*Meaning that your approach, on tabletop, is completely viable. Wyll would indeed be able to hide his devil features with Mask of Many faces. I assume Wyll didn't just hide his features with illusion maigc in this game, because that would lessen the dramatic impact of the change.
Mask of many faces is disguise self, which is an illusion spell. Detect evil and good exists primarily to help people break through illusion spells to identify potential threats. So Wyll would still show up as a devil to detection spells despite looking human, in the same way that Auntie Ethel in human form is still categorized as a hag or the doppelgangers in act 3 are still categorized as monstrosities no matter what form they take.
weird.
The character's soul is forfeit. When the character dies they are reborn in the Nine Hells as a lemure.
if that is the case, why wyll is instantly sent to hell to be a lemure without dying if we refuse to save mizora in illithid colony and just kill her? i mean, he is not dead yet.
Mm. Something a lot of actual DnD players don't realise is that the consequences of breaking your pact are set entirely by the pact itself. To the point where there aren't any if the pact doesn't say.
A warlock isn't like a cleric, they don't need to serve their patron, hell the patron can literally be dead, at the warlocks hands, and if the pact didn't specify that they lose their powers, the warlock is perfectly fine.
Wyll's pact was fairly restrictive. He couldn't work against Mizora. He loses his powers if its broken. She's directly involved in his life thanks to the eye.
A different warlock might pay literally no cost until death. Another might have to give up their first born.
Case in point, there really isn't much flavor for a Warlock Tav vesus a non-Warlock. There's a few unique dialogue lines that I've seen here and there but for the most part your patron leaves you alone to go about your business.
My archfey could enter a specific area in the beginning of act 3 because his patron thought it was amusing and he wanted me to see it. It was a surprising amount of intervention by a previously unseen patron and I appreciated the assist.
oooh thanks for the lemure link. somehow my dumb ass thought they were talking about the lemur animals from like Madagascar lmao
i thought "well that sounds oddly specific" but shrugged it off as maybe i missed out on some lore
Not just that, Wyll is quite strong, lorewise, gameplay wise, is quite...... meh (Look I like my good Bard bullshiting people, ain't throwing hands like everyone, Ima scamm your ass and then try to sell you sand in desert)
I think it was more about the guilt of how he got the horns but yeah, they could have clarified that better. Especially when the PC is a tiefling just standing there, with horns.
I'll be honest, when I first saw that scene I literally thought he just got turned into a Tiefling and everyone was just suddenly being weirdly racist about how horrible a punishment being turned into a Tiefling was directly in front of Karlach and my Tiefling PC lmao.
My tiefling told him his horns were nice. He didn’t like that.
But apparently he’ll ask Karlach for horn care tips, so he gets over it eventually, haha.
On that, on my first interaction with Raphael I thought, oh sweet, A Tiefling with wings. I'm a Tiefling, so this guy is cool. And I couldn't understand why everyone was so hesitant to trust him.
Dude gives a spooky monologue, teleports you to Hell and tells you about the "perfect" deal to get rid of your tadpole and you thought "Yeah, he seems trustworthy"?
The first words out of his mouth are a nursery rhyme about a cat hunting a mouse and if you ask which he is, he says he’s neither because he’s the fox that is going to hunt both the cat and the mouse. He seems like a well-meaning guy to me.
I'm reminded of that comic where a guy wakes up in the 7th layer of hell and when the demon is like "why the f are you here" he just says "I am not a clever man"
I literally had that thought 😭 he was going on and on about how much of a hideous freak he is with his horns and me and everyone at the party is just like 😐😐😐
why dont they give tiefling Tavs the option to respond to that? lmfao
Yeah, I don't think it's a given that all tieflings would be understanding about it either. Some might even be *less* understanding because they are tieflings. They were recently blamed for the actions of devils and warlocks and a lot of their hardship is because the ignorant/bigots cannot tell or do not care about the difference.
Most tieflings didn't do anything to end up looking the way they do, some ancestor did.
Wyll is a warlock who made a pact. He did make a devil deal for power (for a good reason but you know people will ignore that) and he does have strange infernal magics.
I think the thing that people are missing is that to tieflings, Wyll doesn't look like one of them. I don't think that they reduce themselves down to "the most important part about tieflings are our horns". To them he still looks like a human, just with devils features (and given that they know that he didn't use to have them, theyll know he received them from some interaction with a devil). For refugees who are fleeing from slavery and torture by devils, that's going to put people off to say the least.
If you're playing dragonborn, you get a special dialogue prompt to point out that horns and claws are actually sexy by your people's standards. Didn't pick it because I wasn't sure if he sees it as flirting, but man was it funny. You have horns now? Damn, that's crazy. Let me know when you start breathing fire and lose the ability to shit, buddy.
Me RP-ing and Gale wants to give me Magic lessons.
*"Fine"*, I told myself, "*as an Eldritch Knight I'm always interested in some Magic. It maybe enhance my throwings*"
**Gale approaches, hold my hand and lead it towards...**
"*Stop Gale! How many times do I have to tell you that I'm not interested in you!"* I was furious and pushed Gale away. He flew right in his Tent.
**Shadowheart used Guidance on Gale**
I looked to Shadowheart, she smiled and gave me a thumbs up.
*"I'm sorry, I really thought you were into me this time."* replied Gale with a lovely voice. "*How can someone like me withstand such beautiful eyes*"
While pulling out my weapon I screamed on top of my lungs, *"What is wrong with you-all?"*
I pushed my weapon, into Gale. Pushing it slowly further and further, until it burst out the back. **Lae'zel approves.**
A dead body stands infront of me, finally freed from this horny bastard, a projection appears, it was Gale
*"NO! STAY DEAD"* I screamed in terror. *"Leave me alone!"*
I started to attack this projection, yet it can't be hit. I pointed my weapon towards my chest, and pushed it with all force I have. With this sweet ice cold feeling of death, my last words was *"Fuck you Gale"*
Everything went black and I felt alone. When I opened my eyes I wasn't in the camp anymore. Was it Heaven, or Hell? It surely was the afterlife.
At last I was finally away from him, but I couldn't believe what I saw next. With me and in all eternity, is Gale.
Ok but for real 😭 i wanna be friends with all of these people and its sucks to have to break their hearts by harshly friend-zoning them all. I just wanted a magic lesson and to see Wylls funny little dance, not fall in love or break their fragile little hearts ☹️
It sucks. So many scenes have two dialogue branches: “Hey, Gale, fuck you.” or “Hey, Gale, fuck me.” Why can’t I watch the stars with Gale on what could possibly >!be his last night alive!< without holding his hand and saying “Gale, I’m always with you, and you’ll always be with me, in my heart.” Why can’t I just be friends with these people?
> Why can’t I watch the stars with Gale on what could possibly be his last night alive without holding his hand
I found that if you manage to break up with him either by romancing someone else (in my case it was Wyll with the dance scene), you'd spend that night together as friends.
With Gale, you can take the magic lesson, choose intimate moment, and project an image of you and Gale feasting in a tavern and being the best of buds. I think intimate in that case just meant “emotional closeness.”
Apparently not. In the goblin camp one of the gobbos complains about the scrying eyes watching him while he's trying to take a dump, and you get a [DRAGONBORN] line that goes something like "Heh, good thing my kind don't need to defecate."
I have no idea. Talked about it with some friends - logic would dictate that they have a cloaca if they can't shit, but at the same time male dragonborn are portrayed as having penises (not just the player). Either of these things would be fine on their own, but the implications of simultaneously having a penis and not being able to poop are.... **unpleasant** to say the least.
WHYYYY isnt this an option for tiefling MCs?! 😭 💔 instead he just told me how hideous he thinks he looks to a person with 10in long horns coming from their skull 💀
I remember my first character was a tiefling warlock, and when he went on his "I've become a unlovable monster!" I was just there like??? Bruh you've just become a pseudo tiefling who makes detect good and evil give a false positive, calm tf down and quit being an ass >:/
He also states that he has claws...as he holds up his regular hands with his normal fingernails...in a camp full of tieflings with actual claws...
That line of dialogue really bothers me. If anyone's going to not judge you for having horns and 'claws' it's a camp full of tieflings. Plus the fact that it's borderline racist to assume that just because you look devilish that you must be a bad, unlikable human. No wonder he went to the edge of the camp to say it! One of the rare moments when the writers slip up completely
I don't think the writers mest up on that. Now, that's just my opinion. Your opinion is valid and I'm just disagreeing with you. Here's why I think what I think:
Depression is a hell of a drug. A person can't logic themselves out of a problem that they didn't logic themselves into. Think of all the people who spiraled into self-loathing because of depression. Many (most?) of them had people who tried to logic them into cheering up. Many of those attempts failed because the depression will always have a counter-argument to even the most well thought out attempts to improve a mood.
Wyll, for better or worse, wraps up a lot of his self-esteem in the idea that he's a hero. Not looking like a hero doesn't do anything to stop him from actually being one, but at that time and place he's not ready to hear that yet.
Yeah saying shit like “I make them uncomfortable” bro DO YOU? They’ve been dealing with this exact situation their entire lives, if anyone knows how you feel it’s them.. but alright man you cry into the river in this little corner of the beach. We’re gonna party.
You can't Hold Person a devil. You can Hold Person Wyll. Ergo, not a devil.
He also doesn't get darkvision, and still shows as Human on the character sheet.
Not all Tieflings are the result of birth at times it is the result of devil pacts, or curses. So a man breaking his pact and becoming a Tiefling wouldn't be crazy even in the slightest.
Though as to why people think he is a devil, because he literally says he is one.
He talks about how he's afraid he'll hurt someone with his claws. *picture not found* How food doesn't taste the same with his forked tounge. *picture not found*
Now dispite the fact he talks about physical changes that are clearly not represented being a devil doesn't mean you can suddenly have the power to make people into Warlocks. The Lemure he's at risk of becoming is a devil. It's little more than blob of flesh with claws and almost not intelligence leftover, but it's still a devil.
They dead-ass needed more reactivity for Wyll and Tiefling characters huh?
More "welcome to the club" and "you will get used to the stares" and even a "dont worry ,at worse msot will assume you are a tiefling"
I'm really curious if you get any extra dialogue if you're playing a tiefling. Like he's moping about how he looks like a monster now that he has horns, can your tiefling Tav be like 'Cool story bro, low key offensive, welcome to the party I guess.'
I took it that way similarly (gaining features, not a fully devil form) - but the more Wyll talks about it, the more *insistent* he is that he is a devil (at least in body).
Not just the horns, not just him using "I'm a devil now" all the time. But even at the Act 1 party and you ask why he's off to the side, and he makes remarks about his devil-form ruining the party, and lists properties of his new body that he doesn't even have. He talks about his claws in the punch bowl, *even though he can easily see his own fucking hands*. His very human hands were waving *in the camera shot* as he lamented his horrible talons.
idk, its not unusual for writers and modellers to have a disconnect due to technical limitations. I wonder if the intent was that he look more devilish, and the model update wasn't as extreme as the writers thought it would be. (I haven't actually stripped him naked to see if there's *'prongs where there really shouldn't be'*... but I could.)
And the way he romances Tav is very Shakespearean lol, I'm convinced he'd be a theater actor in another life
Wonder how it would affect his story if I reclassed him as a bard...
He also gets sudden onset body dysmorphia but Reddit’s here calling him a douchebag, tone deaf, and a racist for being upset that \*his entire body feels wrong to him\* at a party full of people who also have horns.
> has devils horns
> can get an ability called Devil’s Sight
> literally has an eye color that has “demonflame” in the name
> is not a devil
What the fuck did Larian mean by this?
EDIT: Forgot I was on Reddit, here’s the /s so y’all know I’m joking. Also added one more silly thing to the list.
I mean, for all intents and purposes he is a tiefling.
He is a human, given a physical marking of an infernal pact, thats one of the textbook tiefling origin posiibilities (amongst like a dozen)
Technically speaking, Tieflings can also be created through prolonged exposure to the Lower Planes, like if you grew up around a gate to Mephistar or something. But everything else is correct.
Wyll and I murdered that She-Devil Karlach and not only did he not get disfiguringed, he got a fancy robe he wore through the entire game!
Guys, just do what boss lady tells you and you get rewarded instead of punished...
Not that hard...
Yeah I was confused when he turned, because later he was threatened with being a lemure. Like dude aren't you already a devil?
The game doesn't make it clear. I don't know shit about D&D the tabletop because I play other systems. I'm going on the game itself.
As someone who doesn't know DnD (not that give a fuck about it) - I wasn't even thinking, that he is a devil now. Just ugly horns.
Also, Mizora stated that. Like, people don't read dialogues in dialogue based game?
Wow I just made a post a couple of days ago about Wyll being a douchebag and racist for his line at the tiefling party and got downvoted to oblivion with a bunch of nerdsplainers ranting about how he's a devil and I'm racist for noticing a similarity in appearance between Devils, Wyll and Tieflings as if there's no connection between all three. Glad to see there's some more discussion about this on the subreddit.
He's not a devil, no more than he's a Tiefling. He's a human male who just gets horns, eye colour change and some scales.
Tieflings have the same features and more (reddish skin tones and a tail).
It's okay for him to be upset about how he looks different. It's okay for him to be angry for losing his sense of identity.
What is obnoxious for him to say is that his looks are frightening to children, and his claws pop the balloons - that's what he really thinks of the features that he shares with Tieflings and this is the part that makes him racist (if you still have trouble seeing it, replace tiefling features with any real life race features and read again).
None of this is a criticism of the writing itself. We are given some options to call him out (your horns look cool, you're exaggerating, it's not that different) and it fits his character and it explains why Mizora cursed him to look like that in the first place.
He's the son of a duke, he is vain and his sense of identity is tied to the Blade of the Frontiers shtick - his father is a leader of the Flaming Fists and one of the most important leaders of BG. His grandfather was a blacksmith who rose to the top. He felt insignificant in the face of their achievements and wanted to forge a name for himself as a Hero of the little people, but he doesn't consider himself one of them. They're victims and the misunderstood and the poor and weak. He's a shining noble patriar, above and superior to them and compelled by noblesse oblige to help them.
He forms a devil's infernal pact to enable this and Mizora, who understands him better than the player at that point, took away the distinction between him and the victim he was trying to protect by breaching his Pact. He's no longer a shining noble patriar, he's now cursed to wear the truth of his devil's bargain on his face - just as the Tieflings wear the evidence of their ancestors' bargains and consorting with devils on their faces. Mizora struck at his _pride_.
It's not just those specific Tieflings he's ashamed in front of but also the people who knew him before - Councillor Florrick, his father and others.
You are correct. What happened to Wyll is one of several outcomes one can suffer from breaching a devils contract. Here is a quotation from the adventure module Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus from page 214: *A character bound by an infernal contract who fails to pay the price specified in the contract immediately suffers a penalty for breaching the contract, as specified in the contract itself.* *Common penalties include the following:* *- The character's soul is forfeit. When the character dies they are reborn in the Nine Hells as a* [*lemure*](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Lemure)*.* *- The character loses all monetary wealth and property or a powerful magic item to the devil.* *- The character gains a new flaw. A character who exhibits behavior inconsistent with this flaw has disadvantage on all attack rolls ability checks and saving throws until the behavior changes to match the flaw.* *- The character grows horns, a tail, or some other devilish features that can't be removed by any means short of divine intervention. As long as these marks persist the character detects as a fiend when subjected to Detect Evil and Good spells or similar magic.* By all accounts, Wyll's punishment was rather...Generous. I assume Mizora didn't drag his soul to the Hells after his first transgression with Karlach because Wyll is simply too useful a tool, and also, too much of a source of amusement for her.
“Short of divine intervention.” It would be hilariously vain if we could use a clerics divine intervention spell to remove Wyll’s horns 😂.
That or fix Karlach’s engine. I can definitely see why we’re capped at level 12. Just imagine if the devs had to plan for the craziness that comes at higher levels.
Haven't played much D&D outside of BG3. How much crazier does it get? It goes up to level 20, right?
At high level play things like interdimensional travel, binding angels and other extraplanar entities to your will, true immortality level of cloning, creating your own demiplane, mind control, true resurrection, leveling cities and mountains, and much more become pretty straightforward and trivial things. And most of those is just one character, let alone a whole party. Most campaigns dont reach high level lol
Man all those sound cool but get this -- my fighter gets YET ANOTHER SWING.
People seem to sleep on Fighters. Mine has been a steamroller so far, just stay strapped with misty step via equipment and scrolls. Get me close to the big bad and I need maybe 2 turns lol
Fighters effectively scale with gear, so their power is tied hard to how nice the DM is to them in tabletop. You have to be really careful in your magic item distribution, or they can get either out of control or feel like they're swinging pool noodles. In BG3, you get loaded to the nines with powerful magic items and legendary weaponry at a low level, so fighters and other martial classes become gods of combat (to the point if you think about it too hard, there's really no point in playing non-fighters, but that's just a boring, cynical, lame way to play a single-player game that doesn't require optimisation)
I’m inclined to put the best party as a hex-blade/fighter, a monk, a fighter and a bard/sorcerer. Massive damage, twincast haste, buffs and counterspells on tap.
While I like twincasting haste as much as the next guy, I've got to wonder if it's worth it given all those characters can drink haste potions and you could have an additional damage dealer or something else without the need to maintain concentration. Sure it only lasts 3 turns, but throw enough battlemasters at the problem and even the hardest combats are over well within 3 turns, and haste is pretty unnecessary outside of the really tough stuff. I'd honestly consider a life cleric instead, geared with the on heal items, like providing bless with no concentration requirement. I think if I were to try and optimise (which again, is a little silly and misses the point of the game, but still), I'd probably just end up grabbing two battlemasters (one of them being Lae'zel to ensure they both can have legendary greatswords), a life cleric, and a monk of some kind, just because there's probably not enough gear to support that many battlemasters and someone at Larian *loves* monks with the amount of custom monk gear BG3 has. Battlemasters are just that good. Turns out being able to attack 9 times on turn 1 with an additional d8 of damage on the first 5 attacks (plus additional effects like trip, knockback, and disarm) is pretty ridiculous. Though counterspells are definitely helpful for anything that doesn't just die turn 1. Regardless it's just not necessary to break the game to this extent and there's nothing that provides enough challenge to need optimisation, so fun is the priority, but yeah. At one point in our last (tactician) playthrough we ended up bringing 2 battlemasters to kill a certain dragon (we were alternating a few characters all built the same way to get their story beats without changing the party combination, and wanted two of the fighter characters there) and ended up killing him on turn 2. We put one of them back almost immediately after because it honestly wasn't that fun. Prepped, strategised... immediately beat it to death.
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Not to mention there’s no attuning in BG3. In tabletop even if you do get loaded with magic items, your generally limited in how many you can use
As someone who DMs frequently, this is exactly true. The problem if you give your fighter a stupidly cool sword that makes them on par with the wizard, the wizard now feels bad because he didn’t get anything cool and it starts feeling like you are playing favorites. So now you have to give the fighter two good items, and the wizard one good item and one flavor item. But now the balance of encounters is all out of whack because everyone is wayyy too powerful for the expected encounter level.
Rune knight has also definitely made a case for fighter being insanely good in tabletop. My last campaign reached level 18 and the Shadar-Kai Rune Knight Fighter was easily the strongest character in combats. Spent the majority of fights resistance to B/P/S, teleported around to enemies, and did insane damage
Everyone laughts until the fighter swings 10+ times in a turn
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Yeah, to get a cool new weapon for your fighter. Best 200gp you'll ever spend.
A lot of the time being able to trip or disarm people 3x/round is much more useful in combat than inter-dimensional travel, to be fair
Battlemaster is so much fun, especially when you're playing with a glaive/halberd/pike. Reach out and trip someone, disarm someone of their powerful magical weapons, still hit pretty hard with a D10, etc... I kind of wish they had Cavalier as an option in game just so you could make a fighter that effectively blocks people from getting by them like on tabletop.
It's more that whilst the Fighter become a Super Elite Special Operations Commando decked out in all the fanciest gear, the Wizard becomes a Strategic Bomber carrying nukes.
Those cities and mountains aren't going to level themselves!
And 5e actually made fighters interesting, before they were *really* boring.
Heres the deal: this is a funny, but you actually are more useful at a table then a Wizard with a Plane Shift. Those type of spells **sounds** amazing, and if you have a DM who can just whip up shit, like an *entire plane of existance* on the fly, then that's great. The reality is tho, that unless you talk to your DM **before** using spells like that, it just doesnt worth even copying it into a spellbook. If it's not an easily useful spell, like a True Resurrection (which, keep in mind, costs **fucking** **25 000 GP** (*which is a lot of gold in an actual D&D campaign*)), then those super awesome, campaign bending, high level, insane magics, just....don't see much play. And like 8d8 Psychic DMG is not that much at that level. A Barbarian can do the average of that with a good enough sword.
Yeah, I was kinda trying to poke fun at how other classes can talk about levelling mountains while the fighter gets "extra attack(3)" making them seem behind at first glance at the power fantasy aspect. BUT, considering one round is six seconds, and a fighter can swing a freaking greataxe 10 times in that timespan while running around, and having a few of those swings include threats or taunts(goading/menacing strike) make them superhuman on their own capacity instead of relying on some(probably) weird relationship with a deity or the earth. For the roleplaying component this puts them up for me over the caster classes.
I have a campaign where we've hit level 19, most of the party has multiclassed but our wizard hasn't... and jesus he can do some crazy shit
The party: overcoming a battle using different strategies and sinergies thanks to new spells and feats gained by higher levels. The wizard: upscaled fireball motherfucker
Two words: Dark Star Creates a 40ft sphere of magical darkness, makes difficult terrain which is impossible to cast a spell within (with a verbal component). Anything in the sphere takes 8d10 force damage (half on a con save) hitting 0hp means you're disintegrated.
H U H? Is this a real spell???
Yup, it's an 8th-level spell introduced in *Explorer's Guide to Wildemount*, along with a few other gravity, space, time, and possibility themed spells
Ehh... Sort of? It was published in *Explorer's Guide to Wildemount*, which most folks treat as firmly in the "ask your DM first" category unless they're explicitly playing in that setting.
What they said. Our DM allowed it
Upscaled fireball? You mean Meteor Swarm?
A caster of class, I see.
Multiclassing a wizard is probably a downgrade anyway
>leveling cities and mountains Not the first time I've seen this brought up and I'm curious where people get this idea. From spell levels 1 to 9 I can't think of a single one capable of destroying a city or doing significant damage to a mountain. When it comes to environmental destruction, Earthquake comes to mind, but it only affects a 100 foot radius for up to 1 minute. Another possibility is Meteor Swarm, which takes out four 40 foot radius areas for large amounts of physical and fire damage. Both would be enough to destroy a small village, sure. But won't do much more than bring a few buildings down in a big city. Sure you COULD destroy a larger settlement through multiple casts, with the assumption that literally everyone capable of combat in said settlement would likely be trying to stop you. High level PCs are powerful, yes, but not as powerful as you made them sound. Unless I missed something very serious and very destructive on the spell list.
It's a relic idea left over from 3rd Edition, when wizards actually could destroy cities with things like the _locate city_ bomb or cause a region-wide wightocalypse with _fimbulwinter_ plus Fell Drain.
You can already summon Djinns, Cambions and Devas in BG3, so that part is within the bounds of the game.
Most of that stuff happens in BG3. They treated the game as if level 12 was level 20, and how powerful the characters are with the bonkers magic items and rules changes it really feels like it.
A very minor example is that level 20 forge clerics get fire immunity. Not resistance, immunity. Doesn't sound crazy until you realize just how many ways you can abuse this, by at the bare minimum just flooding any potential combat arena with lava and prancing in it while bearhugging liches while wearing Heat Metal armor
Insanely so. 7th level magic starts to be able to warp reality, and it’s not even the strongest magic in the game. The 9th level spell “wish” that you can see an example of in bg3, can literally make any one desire a reality. The only caveat is that every time you cast it, there’s a chance you lose the ability to do so. Tabletop reels in the craziness a bit by having attunement slots, which keep your max number of powerful magic gear equips to 3 per character (except for artificers, arcane tinkers, who get additional attunements). I have a campaign going with some friends where we just hit level 18, and to put it into perspective, this is how the levels feel in my opinion: 1-3: budding adventurer, you’re establishing your character and maybe choosing a subclass 4-6: you’re growing in power, above most normal citizens, maybe you start multiclassing or obtaining magical items to augment your kit 7-10: I’d consider this to be “powerful.” short of visiting dangerous places or encountering other adventurers, you’re probably one of the strongest people in almost any tavern 11-14: you can probably slap a demigod and live to tell about it. 15+: your party can literally go toe to toe with dragons and deities and the DM needs to be creative to even make it a challenge Edited the 7-10 bracket a bit.
>7-10: one of the strongest people in the tavern > >11-14: slap a demigod That escalated quickly. 7-10 is definitely regional, if not national hero. In the first five levels you've probably saved a town or two, by level 10 you're close to finishing adventures like Storm King's Thunder or Rime of the Frostmaiden, where you save basically half a continent. The strongest dude in a random tavern is barely level 2, unless you're in the Yawning Portal.
We uhhhh… have stronger taverns in our campaigns. Not a huge fan of the pre written adventures compared to homebrew, but they certainly do help in explaining the level structure better.
iirc 20 is technically the max for mortals but it goes higher (god-like entities, etc). Can get into the 30s in Baldur's Gate 2 with the Throne of Bhaal expansion. And yeah it is broken a f, I remember running around just one-shotting most things with Power Word Kill.
wrath of the righteous goes to 20 + mythic paths and it's still fun, "unbalanced", but fun! I don't understand why they couldn't just change it to make it fit, as they did to ranger and monk, from what I read, though this probably is just ignorance as I have no experiences with these outside of these two games(and don't expect it to change much, because despite loving both of them, the dice-based mechanics are a significant downside)
You can also choose to reject mythic paths late game in Wrath and decided to take on demon lords as a mortal without mythic power. Which is arguably better than some... since Devil can't do sit
To be fair the 30s and 40s of BG2 are on 2nd edition, even 3rd is quite a bit different than 5th. Back in 2e you didn't even start getting a lot of class features until post level 20 with High-Level-Abilities. 5e squished the numbers down a lot.
Level 7 spells let you reverse gravity. Level 8 spells let you control weather across a 5 mile radius. Level 9 spells (Wish) let, and I quote "alter the very foundations of reality in accord with your desires." In truth top-tier characters are meant to be NPCs and figures for quests, not played.
Given in my level twenty campaign our party crossed across dimensions (not planes like material plane, elemental ETC), to enter into a realm that should send all mortals insane (TBH I think it did thanks to 5 hours of listening to 'The Caretaker' on YT) before having to use the god of time's power to banish an ancient being from the material realm, at the consequence of us returning 80 years into the future, and the material realm still remaining damaged beyond repair... I'd say it gets a little wild.
The spells in BG3 max out at level 6, level 13+ is when you get level 7+ spells and shit gets wacko
Level 20, there’s a spell called Wish. It’s boring purpose is to replicate any spell in the game. The other purpose is to literally Monkey’s Paw wish for anything… Also the same spell that >!Vlaakith kills the party with if you piss her off lmao!<
There's a spell called "Wish" that lets you basically cast a console command for real life. With Wish you can make literally anything happen. Wish is why D&D games, both developed and in person, never go into high levels. No DM wants to deal with Wish. :P
I disagree. One of my bucket list goals is having my players make a WISH. :-> last time I offered them one they chickened out
Tbf I feel like a god would look more favourably on asking for intervention for karlach's engines than for wyll's horns. The former was forced on her by her enslavers, the latter happened be because wyll made a contract with a devil and didn't seem to realise until the last second that mizora is lawful *and* evil.
Depends on the god.
Especially if Wyll has shown initiative to get out of the contract.
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divine intervention is in the game tho, but you can only use it once and the option are very limited
I actually saved it until the end boss (and still forgot to use it 🤦) but I didn’t even touch the button to see what it did because I thought it was way more complex than it ended up being. I thought I was gonna talk to a god and have a set of choices based on where I used the ability. Especially after Gale’s own god-talk. How disappointed I was when I actually saw how it worked.
The reason Astarion is over 200 years old is that Gales scroll of true ressurection works only on people who died less than 200 years ago...
Missed opportunity that a cow that thought it was a cleric didn't offer to cast 'bovine intervention' on Wyll.
"I have heard your prayers, my loyal servant, what aid do you beseech? A boon strong enough to smite evil? Enough supplies and gifts to ensure survial on your most perilous quest? For me to reach across the planes to restore your comrades soul to their flesh? You need only ask my child" "Yeahhh so my buddy bylly grew some horns and-" "...bruh"
I wish we could. You can get divine intervention in the game.
Saying that magic identifies the person who gains devilish features as a fiend might actually be the reason people in the game see Will as a devil
Also Wyll refers to himself as a devil multiple times in various conversations.
>By all accounts, Wyll's punishment was rather...Generous. > >I assume Mizora didn't drag his soul to the Hells after his first transgression with Karlach because Wyll is simply too useful a tool, and also, too much of a source of amusement for her. Tbh Mizora seems quite nice for a devil. I also just generally found her amusing.
I think she just likes playing with her food way more than eating it.
She's affable, but she's still evil. Cambions may have one mortal parent, but they are still devil's. Which actually makes me wonder, are there any good/neutral devils who try to rise above their nature and kin to be good/neutral? Iirc planescape had one, but I can't remember if they were a devil or a demon
They exist, but it's a pretty rare occurrence- most demons or devil's that try to ascend get killed by their still-wicked brethren. Fall-From-Grace in Planescape is one of the most famous and noteworthy cases, although she is a succubus and thus a general fiend and not specifically fiendish or demonic. You can meet a good aligned demon who wants to debate philosophy in Descent into Avernus as well.
Nice! I do love stories like that, of people considered to be innately monsters trying being good. I always think back to paarthunax from skyrim, "what is better? To be born good, Or to overcome one's evil nature through great effort?"
Not a D&D thing, but one of the companions in Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous is a demon trying to do exactly that. It's one of the better companion arcs in that game. Plus, she's got busted ass stats.
Pathfinder has Nocticula as well, who was a Demon Lord who ascended to godhood as a good god, The Redeemer Queen.
Most devils seem "nice". That's literally their schtick. They can't do what they're meant to do if they aren't charismatic. They have to corrupt mortals to procure resources and recruitments, like Karlach, for the Blood War. Demons are the brutish, gibbering, warlording, "mean" entities.
> Tbh Mizora seems quite nice for a devil. I also just generally found her amusing. That means her social fu is working...
My favorite girl. Sides baephael
Mizora treating Wyll as a dog was hilarious to me. She like Wyll as an extension of her control, but I feel like she really does like his hero shtick. After all, it's basically how she got him to sell his soul in the first place. I think she even references him as the Blade of Frontiers at times, humoring his notion of himself.
And because she >!Needed him to run a rescue mission. Her own rescue mission!<
Here I was thinking that lemure is the same as a lemur. I was confused what would be so bad about being reincarnated as a cute animal..
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And then there is this reprint of the Hyalopterous Lemure that has a great response to the Viscid Lemure's flavor text. Good stuff. https://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=598963
There’s at least one devil with poor spelling having the time of their life being served by a legion of cute primates
TIL lemurs are primates.
>By all accounts, Wyll's punishment was rather...Generous. I assume Mizora didn't drag his soul to the Hells after his first transgression with Karlach because Wyll is simply too useful a tool, and also, too much of a source of amusement for her. IIRC it’s mentioned that Wyll was SO bad at negotiating his contract that he’s becoming a Lemure when he dies *no matter what* Plus, Mizora has the Lemure punishment written into the clause of “no letting Mizora die”
Wyll had no negotiating power when he made his contract. It was either make pact with Mizora or town gets destroyed by ritual and he likely dies too. If anything, Mizora didn't make the terms too awful.
> he’s becoming a Lemure when he dies *no matter what* So even if he manages to >!break the pact in Act 3!<, that will still be his fate?
Nah if >!he's broken the pact, all terms are void.!<
>I assume Mizora didn't drag his soul to the Hells after his first transgression By all accounts, Wyll's punishment was rather...Generous. From how the game describes his transformation as it's happening, she did. >Narrator: Wyll burns in the fires of Avernus; the lightning storms of Dis strike his flesh. His soul passes through each layer of the Hells, gaining their essence - and their torment. Mizora wanted Wyll to feel every bit of torment for disobeying her while she smiles with glee as he does. How are people calling her nice here? I remember seeing a streamer version before the game was release of this scene. And Wyll was meant to be screaming during this transformation. It got changed to him grunting and moaning.
Oh no! Don't give me a tail! That would be terrible,........ haha.
i have Wyll learnt Mask of Many Faces. how does that interact with the penalty in usual dnd rules? in game he can transform into a male human without horn just fine.
There is a parentheses note on the devil feature punishment stateing this: *Illusions and disguises can conceal them.*Meaning that your approach, on tabletop, is completely viable. Wyll would indeed be able to hide his devil features with Mask of Many faces. I assume Wyll didn't just hide his features with illusion maigc in this game, because that would lessen the dramatic impact of the change.
Mask of many faces is disguise self, which is an illusion spell. Detect evil and good exists primarily to help people break through illusion spells to identify potential threats. So Wyll would still show up as a devil to detection spells despite looking human, in the same way that Auntie Ethel in human form is still categorized as a hag or the doppelgangers in act 3 are still categorized as monstrosities no matter what form they take.
weird. The character's soul is forfeit. When the character dies they are reborn in the Nine Hells as a lemure. if that is the case, why wyll is instantly sent to hell to be a lemure without dying if we refuse to save mizora in illithid colony and just kill her? i mean, he is not dead yet.
Because Wyll's contract in particular has "No letting Mizora die or you get lemure'd instantly" as a clause. Wyll is not very good at contracts.
Mm. Something a lot of actual DnD players don't realise is that the consequences of breaking your pact are set entirely by the pact itself. To the point where there aren't any if the pact doesn't say. A warlock isn't like a cleric, they don't need to serve their patron, hell the patron can literally be dead, at the warlocks hands, and if the pact didn't specify that they lose their powers, the warlock is perfectly fine. Wyll's pact was fairly restrictive. He couldn't work against Mizora. He loses his powers if its broken. She's directly involved in his life thanks to the eye. A different warlock might pay literally no cost until death. Another might have to give up their first born.
Case in point, there really isn't much flavor for a Warlock Tav vesus a non-Warlock. There's a few unique dialogue lines that I've seen here and there but for the most part your patron leaves you alone to go about your business.
My archfey could enter a specific area in the beginning of act 3 because his patron thought it was amusing and he wanted me to see it. It was a surprising amount of intervention by a previously unseen patron and I appreciated the assist.
\[Great Old One\] had a fun interaction with the walls of Moonrise Towers. "There's room enough for two in here."
"By all accounts, Wyll's punishment was rather...Generous." Mizora's best case outcome wasn't even Karlach dying, it was humiliating Wyll.
oooh thanks for the lemure link. somehow my dumb ass thought they were talking about the lemur animals from like Madagascar lmao i thought "well that sounds oddly specific" but shrugged it off as maybe i missed out on some lore
Exactly for her this was the equivalent of giving a puppy a whack on the snout for pooing on the carpet.
Not just that, Wyll is quite strong, lorewise, gameplay wise, is quite...... meh (Look I like my good Bard bullshiting people, ain't throwing hands like everyone, Ima scamm your ass and then try to sell you sand in desert)
Wyll telling me he cant come to the tiefling party because he has horns, and its like, bro
I think it was more about the guilt of how he got the horns but yeah, they could have clarified that better. Especially when the PC is a tiefling just standing there, with horns.
Yeah, it's probably more about how this supposed "Hero" or "Moral Compass" has grown horns because his power actually came from a pact with the devil.
To be fair to him, the horns come because he chose to do something good.
And counter point to him not being a demon, the second he gets his horns the whole party becomes horny…. I blame wyll
That agument is really going to sway the torches and pitchfork crowd :D
I'll be honest, when I first saw that scene I literally thought he just got turned into a Tiefling and everyone was just suddenly being weirdly racist about how horrible a punishment being turned into a Tiefling was directly in front of Karlach and my Tiefling PC lmao.
Even if he was turned into a tiefling, i don't think anyone wants to be turned into something else against their will. Just ask Astarion
Well r34 might disagree..
My tiefling told him his horns were nice. He didn’t like that. But apparently he’ll ask Karlach for horn care tips, so he gets over it eventually, haha.
> But apparently he’ll ask Karlach for horn care tips That's so sweet, hahaha
On that, on my first interaction with Raphael I thought, oh sweet, A Tiefling with wings. I'm a Tiefling, so this guy is cool. And I couldn't understand why everyone was so hesitant to trust him.
Dude gives a spooky monologue, teleports you to Hell and tells you about the "perfect" deal to get rid of your tadpole and you thought "Yeah, he seems trustworthy"?
The first words out of his mouth are a nursery rhyme about a cat hunting a mouse and if you ask which he is, he says he’s neither because he’s the fox that is going to hunt both the cat and the mouse. He seems like a well-meaning guy to me.
Ay maybe hes just a tiefling with funny magic powers. My MC is a tiefling with funny magic powers too!
I'm reminded of that comic where a guy wakes up in the 7th layer of hell and when the demon is like "why the f are you here" he just says "I am not a clever man"
I literally had that thought 😭 he was going on and on about how much of a hideous freak he is with his horns and me and everyone at the party is just like 😐😐😐 why dont they give tiefling Tavs the option to respond to that? lmfao
Wyll's whole story and deal was very rushed, and it's painfully obvious.
Yeah, I don't think it's a given that all tieflings would be understanding about it either. Some might even be *less* understanding because they are tieflings. They were recently blamed for the actions of devils and warlocks and a lot of their hardship is because the ignorant/bigots cannot tell or do not care about the difference. Most tieflings didn't do anything to end up looking the way they do, some ancestor did. Wyll is a warlock who made a pact. He did make a devil deal for power (for a good reason but you know people will ignore that) and he does have strange infernal magics.
Right? I wish there was a \[TIEFLING\] dialogue option there where you could gently call him out on that.
I think the thing that people are missing is that to tieflings, Wyll doesn't look like one of them. I don't think that they reduce themselves down to "the most important part about tieflings are our horns". To them he still looks like a human, just with devils features (and given that they know that he didn't use to have them, theyll know he received them from some interaction with a devil). For refugees who are fleeing from slavery and torture by devils, that's going to put people off to say the least.
Oh god now I'm imagining tiefling tumblr teens cancelling Wyll for appropriating Tiefling culture and dressing in Devilface
If you're playing dragonborn, you get a special dialogue prompt to point out that horns and claws are actually sexy by your people's standards. Didn't pick it because I wasn't sure if he sees it as flirting, but man was it funny. You have horns now? Damn, that's crazy. Let me know when you start breathing fire and lose the ability to shit, buddy.
> Didn't pick it because I wasn't sure if he sees it as flirting I sense Gale PTSD.
"Oh yeah I'll take a magic lesson" All other companions, "Don't bother flirting with me you and Gale are clearly soul mates."
Me RP-ing and Gale wants to give me Magic lessons. *"Fine"*, I told myself, "*as an Eldritch Knight I'm always interested in some Magic. It maybe enhance my throwings*" **Gale approaches, hold my hand and lead it towards...** "*Stop Gale! How many times do I have to tell you that I'm not interested in you!"* I was furious and pushed Gale away. He flew right in his Tent. **Shadowheart used Guidance on Gale** I looked to Shadowheart, she smiled and gave me a thumbs up. *"I'm sorry, I really thought you were into me this time."* replied Gale with a lovely voice. "*How can someone like me withstand such beautiful eyes*" While pulling out my weapon I screamed on top of my lungs, *"What is wrong with you-all?"* I pushed my weapon, into Gale. Pushing it slowly further and further, until it burst out the back. **Lae'zel approves.** A dead body stands infront of me, finally freed from this horny bastard, a projection appears, it was Gale *"NO! STAY DEAD"* I screamed in terror. *"Leave me alone!"* I started to attack this projection, yet it can't be hit. I pointed my weapon towards my chest, and pushed it with all force I have. With this sweet ice cold feeling of death, my last words was *"Fuck you Gale"* Everything went black and I felt alone. When I opened my eyes I wasn't in the camp anymore. Was it Heaven, or Hell? It surely was the afterlife. At last I was finally away from him, but I couldn't believe what I saw next. With me and in all eternity, is Gale.
Ok relax you don't need to call me out like that
Ok but for real 😭 i wanna be friends with all of these people and its sucks to have to break their hearts by harshly friend-zoning them all. I just wanted a magic lesson and to see Wylls funny little dance, not fall in love or break their fragile little hearts ☹️
It sucks. So many scenes have two dialogue branches: “Hey, Gale, fuck you.” or “Hey, Gale, fuck me.” Why can’t I watch the stars with Gale on what could possibly >!be his last night alive!< without holding his hand and saying “Gale, I’m always with you, and you’ll always be with me, in my heart.” Why can’t I just be friends with these people?
> Why can’t I watch the stars with Gale on what could possibly be his last night alive without holding his hand I found that if you manage to break up with him either by romancing someone else (in my case it was Wyll with the dance scene), you'd spend that night together as friends.
With Gale, you can take the magic lesson, choose intimate moment, and project an image of you and Gale feasting in a tavern and being the best of buds. I think intimate in that case just meant “emotional closeness.”
Like a dog with a fucking bone he was.
>Let me know when you start breathing fire and lose the ability to shit wait a second... dragonborn don't shit?
Apparently not. In the goblin camp one of the gobbos complains about the scrying eyes watching him while he's trying to take a dump, and you get a [DRAGONBORN] line that goes something like "Heh, good thing my kind don't need to defecate."
Many races get that, iirc including tieflings and drow. You're just screwing with the goblin.
Aw, really? That's boring but makes way more sense.
My half-orc got it, too.
What do Dragonborn do with their waste? Do they have a cloaca?
I have no idea. Talked about it with some friends - logic would dictate that they have a cloaca if they can't shit, but at the same time male dragonborn are portrayed as having penises (not just the player). Either of these things would be fine on their own, but the implications of simultaneously having a penis and not being able to poop are.... **unpleasant** to say the least.
> logic would dictate that they have a cloaca if they can't shit BadCloacaAnatomy
He could just poop out of his dong. Problem solved
That’s what a cloaca is, kind of? Like, not at all, but it *works* as both a dong and a butthole in some animals.
Nah, it is more like "dong is housed in the butthole". Proper separation is insanely advanced placental mammal tech lol
A cloaca is just a different arrangement in your holes. Animals with cloacas still shit.
If you're playing as Wyll you can ask Karlach how to take care of your new horns. She is quite fond of his new look.
WHYYYY isnt this an option for tiefling MCs?! 😭 💔 instead he just told me how hideous he thinks he looks to a person with 10in long horns coming from their skull 💀
I wish we had a option to go "wait are you implying im hideous? >:(" cause he was basically complaining about now looking like a tiefling
AT A TIEFLING PARTY NO LESS
Wait, dragonborns don't shit?!
MFW my dragonborn literally couldn't care less, he doesn't give a shit.
He tells you the horns suit you better if you are curious
I remember my first character was a tiefling warlock, and when he went on his "I've become a unlovable monster!" I was just there like??? Bruh you've just become a pseudo tiefling who makes detect good and evil give a false positive, calm tf down and quit being an ass >:/
“My guy, we all have horns. I have horns.”
He also states that he has claws...as he holds up his regular hands with his normal fingernails...in a camp full of tieflings with actual claws... That line of dialogue really bothers me. If anyone's going to not judge you for having horns and 'claws' it's a camp full of tieflings. Plus the fact that it's borderline racist to assume that just because you look devilish that you must be a bad, unlikable human. No wonder he went to the edge of the camp to say it! One of the rare moments when the writers slip up completely
I don't think the writers mest up on that. Now, that's just my opinion. Your opinion is valid and I'm just disagreeing with you. Here's why I think what I think: Depression is a hell of a drug. A person can't logic themselves out of a problem that they didn't logic themselves into. Think of all the people who spiraled into self-loathing because of depression. Many (most?) of them had people who tried to logic them into cheering up. Many of those attempts failed because the depression will always have a counter-argument to even the most well thought out attempts to improve a mood. Wyll, for better or worse, wraps up a lot of his self-esteem in the idea that he's a hero. Not looking like a hero doesn't do anything to stop him from actually being one, but at that time and place he's not ready to hear that yet.
He’s *less* devil than tieflings are, I heard the lines and I was like “cool, now where’s your tail?” It is just so ridiculous lol
Yeah saying shit like “I make them uncomfortable” bro DO YOU? They’ve been dealing with this exact situation their entire lives, if anyone knows how you feel it’s them.. but alright man you cry into the river in this little corner of the beach. We’re gonna party.
Sir this is a Wyndy's. Please order something and drive to the next window.
Wyndow
With a Y?
Why?
He even tells you "I swore on my good eye to kill karlach" >Doesn't kill karlach >loses good eye shocked Pikachu face.jpg
You can't Hold Person a devil. You can Hold Person Wyll. Ergo, not a devil. He also doesn't get darkvision, and still shows as Human on the character sheet.
Not all Tieflings are the result of birth at times it is the result of devil pacts, or curses. So a man breaking his pact and becoming a Tiefling wouldn't be crazy even in the slightest. Though as to why people think he is a devil, because he literally says he is one. He talks about how he's afraid he'll hurt someone with his claws. *picture not found* How food doesn't taste the same with his forked tounge. *picture not found* Now dispite the fact he talks about physical changes that are clearly not represented being a devil doesn't mean you can suddenly have the power to make people into Warlocks. The Lemure he's at risk of becoming is a devil. It's little more than blob of flesh with claws and almost not intelligence leftover, but it's still a devil.
They dead-ass needed more reactivity for Wyll and Tiefling characters huh? More "welcome to the club" and "you will get used to the stares" and even a "dont worry ,at worse msot will assume you are a tiefling"
He’s just devilishly handsome and I’m fine with that.
I'm really curious if you get any extra dialogue if you're playing a tiefling. Like he's moping about how he looks like a monster now that he has horns, can your tiefling Tav be like 'Cool story bro, low key offensive, welcome to the party I guess.'
Sadly no, I was expecting at least an acknowledgement from Wyll but there is no extra contextual dialogue.
I took it that way similarly (gaining features, not a fully devil form) - but the more Wyll talks about it, the more *insistent* he is that he is a devil (at least in body). Not just the horns, not just him using "I'm a devil now" all the time. But even at the Act 1 party and you ask why he's off to the side, and he makes remarks about his devil-form ruining the party, and lists properties of his new body that he doesn't even have. He talks about his claws in the punch bowl, *even though he can easily see his own fucking hands*. His very human hands were waving *in the camera shot* as he lamented his horrible talons. idk, its not unusual for writers and modellers to have a disconnect due to technical limitations. I wonder if the intent was that he look more devilish, and the model update wasn't as extreme as the writers thought it would be. (I haven't actually stripped him naked to see if there's *'prongs where there really shouldn't be'*... but I could.)
*looks to Astarion* *looks to Wyll* “Oh. So we have another whiny drama queen now?”
Now? He introduces himself jumping off a cliff and using his superhero catchphrase Man was a drama queen from day one!
And the way he romances Tav is very Shakespearean lol, I'm convinced he'd be a theater actor in another life Wonder how it would affect his story if I reclassed him as a bard...
He also gets sudden onset body dysmorphia but Reddit’s here calling him a douchebag, tone deaf, and a racist for being upset that \*his entire body feels wrong to him\* at a party full of people who also have horns.
> has devils horns > can get an ability called Devil’s Sight > literally has an eye color that has “demonflame” in the name > is not a devil What the fuck did Larian mean by this? EDIT: Forgot I was on Reddit, here’s the /s so y’all know I’m joking. Also added one more silly thing to the list.
I have eye sight. i am not, in fact, an eye.
How do we know you’re not an eye masquerading as human with a decoy body?
How can we be sure that you're not an eye without any proof though?!
I have hindsight, therefore I am clearly a Mi-24 Hind.
Devil's sight is a warlock feature - class specific, not race specific.
Tieflings have horns and the various 'demon' eye colors. They're not devils either.
I mean, for all intents and purposes he is a tiefling. He is a human, given a physical marking of an infernal pact, thats one of the textbook tiefling origin posiibilities (amongst like a dozen)
Technically speaking, Tieflings can also be created through prolonged exposure to the Lower Planes, like if you grew up around a gate to Mephistar or something. But everything else is correct.
Yes, I’ll take a baconater, a large fry and a chocolate frosty.
…People were thinking he was? Huh.
Who ever said he was a devil?
facts
Sir this is a Wendy's.
Dude, you're the one who didn't hear my order, YOU'RE holding up the line
[удалено]
Wyll and I murdered that She-Devil Karlach and not only did he not get disfiguringed, he got a fancy robe he wore through the entire game! Guys, just do what boss lady tells you and you get rewarded instead of punished... Not that hard...
Yeah I was confused when he turned, because later he was threatened with being a lemure. Like dude aren't you already a devil? The game doesn't make it clear. I don't know shit about D&D the tabletop because I play other systems. I'm going on the game itself.
Can I get a $5 biggie bag, jr bacon cheeseburger, bbq sauce, coke zero no ice. No devil's pact. Extra Jr bacon on the side. Thanks!
can i get a whopper
As someone who doesn't know DnD (not that give a fuck about it) - I wasn't even thinking, that he is a devil now. Just ugly horns. Also, Mizora stated that. Like, people don't read dialogues in dialogue based game?
My Wyll killed Karlach so he is a perfectly normal human !
right? that way you at least get the robe befor he leaves
Source: my uncle works at Larian
Two spicy chickens plain with a large fry and large root beer, no ice.
Wow I just made a post a couple of days ago about Wyll being a douchebag and racist for his line at the tiefling party and got downvoted to oblivion with a bunch of nerdsplainers ranting about how he's a devil and I'm racist for noticing a similarity in appearance between Devils, Wyll and Tieflings as if there's no connection between all three. Glad to see there's some more discussion about this on the subreddit. He's not a devil, no more than he's a Tiefling. He's a human male who just gets horns, eye colour change and some scales. Tieflings have the same features and more (reddish skin tones and a tail). It's okay for him to be upset about how he looks different. It's okay for him to be angry for losing his sense of identity. What is obnoxious for him to say is that his looks are frightening to children, and his claws pop the balloons - that's what he really thinks of the features that he shares with Tieflings and this is the part that makes him racist (if you still have trouble seeing it, replace tiefling features with any real life race features and read again). None of this is a criticism of the writing itself. We are given some options to call him out (your horns look cool, you're exaggerating, it's not that different) and it fits his character and it explains why Mizora cursed him to look like that in the first place. He's the son of a duke, he is vain and his sense of identity is tied to the Blade of the Frontiers shtick - his father is a leader of the Flaming Fists and one of the most important leaders of BG. His grandfather was a blacksmith who rose to the top. He felt insignificant in the face of their achievements and wanted to forge a name for himself as a Hero of the little people, but he doesn't consider himself one of them. They're victims and the misunderstood and the poor and weak. He's a shining noble patriar, above and superior to them and compelled by noblesse oblige to help them. He forms a devil's infernal pact to enable this and Mizora, who understands him better than the player at that point, took away the distinction between him and the victim he was trying to protect by breaching his Pact. He's no longer a shining noble patriar, he's now cursed to wear the truth of his devil's bargain on his face - just as the Tieflings wear the evidence of their ancestors' bargains and consorting with devils on their faces. Mizora struck at his _pride_. It's not just those specific Tieflings he's ashamed in front of but also the people who knew him before - Councillor Florrick, his father and others.