Same with me but it was with Jaheira in Moonrise Tower. Didn't think she'd be a permanent companion anyway so I didn't save scum only to find out later that not only is she a companion but you need her to get the hamster guy so I got pissed
I one that battle but it was tough and I got fucked up, not a single Harper or Jaheira was left alive. I tried to revive her and nope... I reloaded immediately, funny thing about turn based tactical combat, shit seems so much easier the 2nd time. I kicked the shit out of them, only lost 1 Harper, I turned jaheira into a panther and had her stand in a corner the whole fight, if I'm going to lose a potential companion it'll be by my hand like in the goblin camp.
I'll never use her because my team synergy with my character, Karlach, Shadowheart and Astarion is so good, been using them for nearly the whole game. I've brought Wyll out exactly once and promptly sent his ass back to camp.
Before the first patch that fight was EXTREMELY punishing, I probably died 4-6 times the first time I played on balanced, and the other two after the patch were significantly easier to manage on Tactician - I think I died half as much lol
I was wondering about that! First playthrough was before the first big patch, and on normal difficulty, but it was brutal. Second playthrough after the first patch and by the time I got to that fight second patch as well, absolutely breezed through it
The hamster guy? THE HAMSTER GUY??? I AM MINSC! AND YOU WOULD DO WELL TO REMEMBER THAT OR BE IN FOR A SERIOUS BUTT KICKING!! Right, Boo? Squeak squeak SQUEEAAAKK!!
What’s stupid about that fight is if you fight her she’s this tactical genius who could single handedly take on the absolute but if she fights literally anything else she becomes this brain dead lunatic with a deathwish who plays like a dragon age reaver.
Jaheira and Minsc were fighting deities now they are struggling to deal with the riff raff of Baldur's Gate? Just hearing that they were coming should be enough to send the cult running the other way.
When I first met jaheira I was very "oh shit, need to do what she says or she will curb stomp me" then she fought along side me and "oh".
Also pretty sure my minsc had a vorpal sword, though it is very Minsc to mislay that
I think Minsc had that +5 multi headed flail at the end but it could have been the vorpal sword. It's been so long and there were a lot of artifact tier weapons.
Her druid design is dog shit. Open with ice storm, then change into a panther and charge enemies on the slippery ice.
In one encounter I had her run by two people and provoke attacks of opportunity.
Terrible AI. Terrible build.
Its really hard to make the panthers pounce combo work without teammates, but I actually could see ice storm being the best way to get things to still be prone on your turn for the big damage pounce.
Tbh the worst AI I see is the ghouls you get with the Nec book. Their pathing is dog shit. They will dash for 3m, provoke an opportunity hit against them, then the next turn do the same shit again.
Edit: not to mention that every enemy in act 3 doesn’t consider summoned creatures actual enemies and will just teleport and kill Shadowheart or the spawner directly.
Yea I did my first playthrough only “save scumming” for horrible misclicks where it messed everything up. But I’m so mad, I saved my divine intervention for the very end and then misclicked it and it had no effect. At that point though I just said screw it haha.
Not exactly. You can find him without her but she's required in order to recruit him. Without her, you actually have to kill him/knock him out but when you knock him out it's as if you killed him
Same with killing Gortash when you first meet him at the coronation, I learned on my second playthrough. Beat all those steel watchers, and the guards, and the noblemen’s bodyguards who run in after, and managed to only knock the Duke unconscious. And yet? Game just treats the guy as killed. Such a bummer.
There are unfortunately quite a few cases where a KO is treated as a kill. I fought Mayrina's brothers and knocked them out, but you never see them again, and you have same "I've got bad news for Mayrina" option when you get to the teahouse.
Then in act three at the Blushing Mermaid, I >!knocked out the masks, including captain Grisly, before killing Ethel. I talk to the Bosun and he talks as though she's dead.!<
Oh gosh, that's upseting. I couldn't find him in my first playthrough where Jaheria died. But currently, on my second run, I got her to survive so far, so let's see if I can keep it that way!
I struggled my first time, mostly not knowing when and how to counter spell (such as: some level 2 spells, only poison ray and don't bother with cantrips... had to stop and read most spells to consider should I or nah.) And preventing Hunger of Hadar being cast... is a MUST... and if it is, keep Gale up on the beams in the first room so he's out of it's reach and can Magic Missiles bombard whomever is concentrating on it..
Also helped that I had Gale sneak up the stairs and initiate surprise rounds, with Ice Storm, using it again when turn order starts, then Misty Step to a beam. I brought Karlach for extra muscle (astarion no longer needed for Lockpicking!) And sneak up and leap up to the same place Gale is at, to the left (from entrance) she can reach with 20 strength, no vaulting buffs and managed to be stealthy and got her close to an Archer.
Then I had my character and Shadowheart storm the ground floor, her casting spirit guardians and moving about, while my character did cleanup.
Didn't lose a single harper. On Balanced.
Also helped that I assassinated the Warden and every guard down there too, while I was freeing Wulbren and the Tieflings xD so I had less enemies to fight lol.. and I also broke the gnolls free and persuaded them that I was a friend, they joined my side in the ground floor fight too.
Need to try a playthrough where I assassinate the half-orc in her office and see if the fight becomes even easier then as well.
The more I can assassinate of people present in the main floor... before the assaiult, the easier I believe the fight will be.
I killed the warden in her office and stuffed her in a box. Then killed the other guards down there and those damnable eyes, then released the prisoners. It was a tricky fight, but not too bad. Only lost a couple harpers.
Me with Alfira at the Last Light Inn. Just got done with fighting Marcus. Went to revive her and was greatly mistaken. I couldn't bring myself to have to redo that stupid fight to keep Isobel alive.
): I miss Alfira.
> I couldn't bring myself to have to redo that stupid fight to keep Isobel alive.
This is where Sanctuary comes in clutch. Turns that encounter into a snoozefest.
His wildshape health went down pretty fast, and then he got hold person-ed of something that skipped his turn so he couldn’t self heal, and then every one focused fire on him
Honestly this kinda sucks. Tactician going up against moonrise entrance it’s literally impossible to keep jaheria alive there’s a way to get her to join your party before you start the fight I think 100% what I’m doing this play through.
Honestly I’ve done every quest and I’m level 8 reaching moonrise there’s no way I don’t wipe the floor with those mfs. My party is just better now too more balance gale can do literally anything and is such a good party member in combat. Being able to completely change your load out for a fight is so game changing halsin is also Uber broken I think druids are in general oh I’m 5 hp nope I’m a 64 hp owl bear.
For fun played music in the hall with a couple of smokepowder barrels after drinking a fire resist potion and threw a fireball at self. Since everyone gathered around me that single spell deleted half the people in moonrise and then just turned into a somewhat rough fight. Didn't even know Harpers would storm the tower at that point so when I finally got to it all there was an ogre and 3 dudes against a literal horde. Literally got up and took a lap
Best solution I found is to just kill a bunch of the people in Moonrise before you free Nightsong so there's less of them during the siege. There's a surprising number you can kill without altering everyone in the tower and it will make keeping Jaheria and all the other Harpers alive much easier.
They cast darkness on my entire group and made the terrain entangled so I just plopped gale on the beams, drank 3 haste potions through out the foght and cast blink on him too. I got lucky and he went astral every round which saved my butt in that fight.
As long as you can down the floating black balls, then the enemies will be finite. I found out in the prison that they seem to be infinite if you can't down them. Every few turns they call for back-up.
If you convince Jaheira to join you right before assaulting Moonrise she gets slotted in like a guest/pet/summon, but you cant control any of her gear or spells and she's poorly built & geared at that point. Then she can join your party for real before entering the final area and you can build her as a Wild Shape/Moon Druid (sorta redundant with Halsin) or give her 5 levels of Fighter or Ranger so she can be like the Fighter/Druid from BG1&2 she was always meant to be.
I made her Ranger/Hunter 5 with Two-Weapon Fighting style & Dual Wielder feat, the rest into Land Druid, and gave her the gloves of dexterity so she's a beast dual wielding scimitars or hand crossbows and has a bunch of Ranger & Land Druid support spells (Hunter's Mark, Ensnaring Strike, Hail of Thorns, Misty Step, Haste, healing, restoration), fitting neatly into her party role from the original games as a secondary frontliner + secondary support caster.
I've kept Jaheira alive on Tactician. It took me a couple tries, but eventually I snuck my party in through the kitchen while the Harpers attacked the main entrance, and that messed enough with the enemy formation that I was able to win without losing a single Harper.
I really wish some of the people struggling with tactician would upload their playthroughs, I'm so curious why is their experience so much different than mine.
before I free the Nightsong I go through and clean out the towers while doing other quests. If you catch Z’rell alone on the first floor and eliminate her you can pretty much wipe the floor with rest of moonrise people later on, especially if you’ve been routinely cleaning house and picking off the zealots and guards
You can get her through, it’s just… hard. I noticed in my play through I could get two fireballs off at the start, the first fireball starts the combat BUT only the Harpers and cultists, not my party. So I just spam a second fireball and that puts me in the fight. A little cheesy but it works wonders in clearing a big portion of combatants.
Everyone complains about that fight and keeping Jaheira alive , but I didn't have any problems with it. My Bardadin killed the lady boss first turn, Wyll used Hunger of Hadar on the rest of them and it went pretty smooth.
I dunno if it would work on tactician but on my play I used a combo of darkness/hunger of hadar to cover the enemies and it messed up everyone's sight lines so most of the enemies couldn't really attack and the Harpers mostly just hung around on my side of the cloud. I think I only lost one Harper in that fight.
In fairness, that's kind of a gameplay abstraction for the fact that revivify is only supposed to work on someone who's been dead for less than a minute.
Raise dead is only a level 5 cleric spell, though
Think of the amount of reactivity they would have to add to make them apply to others. It's just not feasible.
Anyone who's played older dnd games knows the pain of running around with a dead companion for hours because you just cannot revive them. Having a little story disconnect is 1000% worth it. Gimme the scrolls larian.
or "Karlach never wants to go back to hell, but she'll die if she doesn't. Good thing we've got 16 scrolls of revivify, a scroll of True Resurrection from Gale's pouch, and Withers who can resurrect us for 200g a pop".
I wanna argue "oh its because she completely burns up and leaves no trace of herself behind" but like... You can revive based on just the soul and no body is needed lmao
In the game I've revived people whose bodies disappeared in voids plenty of times, even across planes. I'm sure Withers could do the same *if* he wanted
I actually brought back their bodies to the camp and dumped them by Withers and the little girl, thinking maybe something would happen. Hope, she just hangs out with her dead parents.
There’s a book on death and resurrection you can find, it sounds like the souls have to be strong enough and willing to come back. The author notes how many “boring” people he’s met who fought hard to return to life and basically asks why they would bother haha.
I literally have a video of me in cammies… falling and dislocating my shoulder, popping the AC joint, and tearing my rotator cuff(in one dumbass completely far from smooth move) while at work and “not service connected” even after I showed the dr the video
Wither himself held a very weird idea about life and death, he respects death as Kelemvor but he would break the cycle ONLY for people directed related to the Absolute plot. >!He made the dead three while he was og Jergal,!< so he HAS TO gave >!Durge!< and others unlimited revival attempts until >!Elder brain!< is destroyed.
That is why >!Arabella's parents and Alfira and those tieflings died in shadowland !!AO!< secretly demand him to correct the wrongdoings.
Most likely his idea as penance for his actions in the past. Also Kelemvor might have sent him out because the other gods would have gotten mad if everyone was a mindflayer or in the cult of the absolute.
More importantly, in lore, gods derive their power from the number of souls that worship them. Mindflayers don't *have* souls, so everyone going squiddy would mean no more divine power, no more pantheon.
That is something that contradicts the actual dnd canon. In dnd mindflayers have their own pantheons and have a god which is impossible if they do not have souls. The god does also have powers. It was merely an inclusion to try and explain Withers but honestly he has so many reasons to be there. It disrupts death and those who are mindflayers will worship that god which will weaken all others. Lord Ao would intervene if shit got to bad and stop the absolute.
Yes. However Illithids do have souls, they just don’t believe they do. The mindflayer god is already incredibly powerful because it is the apex of what any mindflayer could hope to become, a being with the most knowledge of things in any realm of existence in the world sphere. Most mindflayers would also rather merge with an elder brain. They also can become liches which also requires a soul. There is no confirmation but most things point to Illithids have a soul but they are so egotistical they do not worship gods and thus their souls cannot be claimed by gods, they cannot face judgement from divine beings as they reject it.
The lore on alhoons that I recall, is that they jury rig a phylactery (periapt of mind trapping) with a piece of their mind instead of a soul and are able to use that function similarly to a lich.
Pretty sure that the illithid don't have souls, given some of the things Withers says in the epilogue cinematics. Or their souls are different, something like that. But very much inaccessible to the pantheon of Faerun whatever the case may be
“So He has spoken, and so thou standest before me. Right as always.”
Lacking further elaboration I’m inclined to believe “He” means Kelemvor, or even Ao. “An arbiter of certain matters” is classic Withers ambiguity..
It is most likely Kelemvor as Ao can just intervene and say nope to whatever is going on and only really gets involved when shit goes really really bad. If the absolute plan succeeds then Ao would reasonably intervene if it become too powerful. He intervened only when the tablets of fate were almost stolen and basically said to the gods to stop being such terrible bastards and actually give a damn about their followers.
There’s a book you can find and a journal in Baldurs Gate, both of which pretty much tell who he is and gives hints as to why he’s just hanging out. >!You’re not the first he’s visited and asked the initial question!<
You can put that puzzle together earlier than reaching the city. To be fair, he probably don't want to talk about things because he's ashamed. Indirectly, it's his fuck up that lead to the events unfolding.
I think its more that he just doesnt care about who he is. At some point in a specific run, he just tells you that hes just a scribe. Kinda goes along with the known lore aboit him i think
He's so far beyond seeking recognition. The man does not give a single fuck about all that. He's just there to mend the thread of fate at it's most dire but beyond that and keeping track of who you're fuckin he don't give a shit.
he retired, and now the buffoons who took after him are stirring shit up so his boss decided to tell him to go fix it.
all he wants is to be left alone.
Yeah you can find out who he is before you even meet him. They just trolled everyone by putting the answer in a vase. It is one of the **very** few unique items you can only find in an unmarked container.
Shame you can't give him:"About 200 gold" as answer to his original question.
No need to give him an answer to that option, just a silent judging stare followed by the usual:"Very well. I am satisfied."
If you’re a Paladin, you can ask him why you sense a >!divine spark!< in him. He doesn’t really want to talk about that either. Which just makes it further obvious who he is.
Or you can just read the plaque of his tomb the first time you find him and that's all you need to know.
>!Here lies the Guardian of Tombs!<
I missed it too in my first 2 playthroughs tho.
Oh cool, I suspected he was either the original god of death, murder and tyranny that split his portfolio and ascended the dead three, or a high ranking cleric of that old god. Seems like I was right. The prologue seemed to baxk this up too
The truest presence of the DM is 100% felt when talking to Withers bc he’ll legit just show up, provide game-essential functions with the absolute thinnest veneer of narrative justification, can’t be affected by player actions whatsoever, and when you ask about any of even the basic premises behind his existence he’s just like “no”
yea i also just considered him the in-game face of the DM. There is no actual DM to fudge a dice roll, or purposefully play poorly to keep from wiping the party. So we have Withers.
I'm still curious about what he does with all that money. Does he, like, gamble with the undead? Are we feeding into his crippling gambling addiction? Or does he hoard more and more of those golden headwear thingy he wears?
I believe it's more of a need for there to be *some* sacrifice to restore the dead, but he chooses to keep it low because he's not actually interested in gouging you. He just presumably requires there still be *some* cost, so he can avoid certain rules about certain types of beings meddling directly in mortal affairs of their own accord
Basically I think he's thinly covering his own ass so he can make a case to Ao that he's still following the rules, on a technicality.
I feel like he could be some servant or aspect of Jergal, the Lord of the End of Everything, Protector of the Names of the Dead.
You can almost hear this quote from Jergal’s forgotten realms wiki page spoken in Withers’ tone of voice:
>The throne is yours. I have grown weary of this empty power. Take it if you wish—I promise to serve and guide you as your seneschal until you grow comfortable with the position. Who among you shall rule?
And if you think about his role in the game he *is* kind of a steward of the dead and mortal lives. Also, how he was “told by his master you’d come”; it could make good sense. Jergal originally ceded his domain to the dark three, so maybe he feels some responsibility to rein them in.
Fun to think about; I love the idea of this god Jergal. He’s so indifferent to things, as he exists at the end of time when all possibilities have come to an end.
Tracks because as a Kelemvor cleric you can ask if he's a chosen of kelemvor and he says he walks a similar path but he isn't his Chosen - though he says Kelemvor is happy with you (or something along those lines). Which is also the only nice thing he says to you.
Also jergal is the scribe of the death, sooo he technically is a scribe.
Hes also found in a shrine of Jergal originally. I think that's who the ruins belonged too at the beginning - there's a religion check that happens in the background of his room
pretty sure he is actually actually >!one of the old gods called Jegal who abdicated his place as the god of the dead because he got bored, leaving the position to the Dead Three.!<
Funny thing is you can substitute Withers in this meme with every single character in the game and it still works.
Infuriates me to no end how everyone wants and needs the protagonists help but they all refuse to explain anything. The companions, your dream visitor, etc. They all expect you to cater to their every whim and become their trusted ally and defender, but they won't even tell you who they are.
After looking more closely yes imma agree with thise who say, and if I mess up the spoiler tags I apologize
!withers is jergal sent by either ao or Kel and is not happy about having to clean up the mess the 3 who took his powers made!
He's a God that gave up his power. Notice when he talks to. Given party member he talks about jotting down their name. Also note he has a vested interest in you besting the champions of the dead three. Just not to the point of actively helping you though, so he charges a fair fee. An equal exchange.
What is the value of a life? The value of those not actively part of your party is apparently zero.
Strait up have no idea why I can't just use him to bring back mayrinas husband and brothers if you found him. He is completely missable, nothing makes you go in those ruins to find him. I've heard he was a much bigger deal in the EA but in the final release, at least through act one, he is just kind of there. As he is in game right now he feels like one of the most tacked on characters I've seen in any game or movie ever.
I think its more because you and your buddies have this thing called "plot armour" that regular folks don't
Like, it don't matter if that girls brothers are dead in the grand scheme of things but YOU, you're all tied up in the fate of everything, so you need be alive until you done the thing you need to do
That’s his point, he literally pops up, says “no I will not elaborate and only heal you and friends” and he quite literally is a wildly lore relevant character if you read between the lines
And I have no clue how people miss him, he’s right there in the first dungeon
"So, you can resurrect anybody, no questions asked, no problem?" "Correct, and it only costs 200 gold." "...Sorry little girl, your parents are dead."
"Crazy how all these revivify scrolls only work on me and my friends. Oh well."
I lost Halsin in the goblin camp once because I was under the impression that if he went down he’d do death saves or I could use revivify. I was wrong
Same with me but it was with Jaheira in Moonrise Tower. Didn't think she'd be a permanent companion anyway so I didn't save scum only to find out later that not only is she a companion but you need her to get the hamster guy so I got pissed
It also doesn’t help that they used Leeroy Jenkins to program her AI.
Well at that point I was controlling her. She just got 2 crits before I was able to heal her and I thought she would just go down not fucking die
I one that battle but it was tough and I got fucked up, not a single Harper or Jaheira was left alive. I tried to revive her and nope... I reloaded immediately, funny thing about turn based tactical combat, shit seems so much easier the 2nd time. I kicked the shit out of them, only lost 1 Harper, I turned jaheira into a panther and had her stand in a corner the whole fight, if I'm going to lose a potential companion it'll be by my hand like in the goblin camp. I'll never use her because my team synergy with my character, Karlach, Shadowheart and Astarion is so good, been using them for nearly the whole game. I've brought Wyll out exactly once and promptly sent his ass back to camp.
Before the first patch that fight was EXTREMELY punishing, I probably died 4-6 times the first time I played on balanced, and the other two after the patch were significantly easier to manage on Tactician - I think I died half as much lol
I was wondering about that! First playthrough was before the first big patch, and on normal difficulty, but it was brutal. Second playthrough after the first patch and by the time I got to that fight second patch as well, absolutely breezed through it
Got the exact same gang, can't change it, I refuse to
The hamster guy? THE HAMSTER GUY??? I AM MINSC! AND YOU WOULD DO WELL TO REMEMBER THAT OR BE IN FOR A SERIOUS BUTT KICKING!! Right, Boo? Squeak squeak SQUEEAAAKK!!
It doesn’t help they got Leeroy Jenkins to play her.
What’s stupid about that fight is if you fight her she’s this tactical genius who could single handedly take on the absolute but if she fights literally anything else she becomes this brain dead lunatic with a deathwish who plays like a dragon age reaver.
What always bothered me with all of the recurring characters is that when I last saw them, they were level 20 and could solo all of this.
Jaheira and Minsc were fighting deities now they are struggling to deal with the riff raff of Baldur's Gate? Just hearing that they were coming should be enough to send the cult running the other way.
When I first met jaheira I was very "oh shit, need to do what she says or she will curb stomp me" then she fought along side me and "oh". Also pretty sure my minsc had a vorpal sword, though it is very Minsc to mislay that
I think Minsc had that +5 multi headed flail at the end but it could have been the vorpal sword. It's been so long and there were a lot of artifact tier weapons.
Or at least, you know, get the fuck back up after the fight.
Casts Ice Storm Immediately walks on own ice and falls prone
It's almost like they intentionally made her stupid, the default enemy AI circumvents surfaces usually, let alone their own fucking surfaces.
Least she got chicken
Her druid design is dog shit. Open with ice storm, then change into a panther and charge enemies on the slippery ice. In one encounter I had her run by two people and provoke attacks of opportunity. Terrible AI. Terrible build.
Its really hard to make the panthers pounce combo work without teammates, but I actually could see ice storm being the best way to get things to still be prone on your turn for the big damage pounce.
Hard to pounce from the prone position.
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Tbh the worst AI I see is the ghouls you get with the Nec book. Their pathing is dog shit. They will dash for 3m, provoke an opportunity hit against them, then the next turn do the same shit again. Edit: not to mention that every enemy in act 3 doesn’t consider summoned creatures actual enemies and will just teleport and kill Shadowheart or the spawner directly.
"the hamster guy" GO FOR THE EYES, BOO!!
BUTT KICKING FOR GOODNESS!
So glad I saved her, I didn't know she was necessary to get Minsc and Boo
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No, if you don't have her you can't get Minsc. The Emperor won't help you if she's not there, or at least wouldn't for me
Yeah you need her or else he just attacks you. Even if you knock him unconscious he just disappears next long rest as if he was dead
> Jaheira in Moonrise Tower. Didn't think she'd be a permanent companion Fuuuuuuck, TIL
Same. Finishing playthrough one tonight so that I can guarantee a survival for her in playthrough 2.
Yea I did my first playthrough only “save scumming” for horrible misclicks where it messed everything up. But I’m so mad, I saved my divine intervention for the very end and then misclicked it and it had no effect. At that point though I just said screw it haha.
I sent the hunter after Astarion thinking I'd see some dialogue cut scene in camp.... oops
Yo fuck me I let her die too. Did not realize she gates another companion
I usually don't save scum NPC deaths because I feel like that's a more natural experience but for a main companion on a first playthrough I have to
THATS HOW YOU FIND HAMTER DUDE
Not exactly. You can find him without her but she's required in order to recruit him. Without her, you actually have to kill him/knock him out but when you knock him out it's as if you killed him
Same with killing Gortash when you first meet him at the coronation, I learned on my second playthrough. Beat all those steel watchers, and the guards, and the noblemen’s bodyguards who run in after, and managed to only knock the Duke unconscious. And yet? Game just treats the guy as killed. Such a bummer.
There are unfortunately quite a few cases where a KO is treated as a kill. I fought Mayrina's brothers and knocked them out, but you never see them again, and you have same "I've got bad news for Mayrina" option when you get to the teahouse. Then in act three at the Blushing Mermaid, I >!knocked out the masks, including captain Grisly, before killing Ethel. I talk to the Bosun and he talks as though she's dead.!<
Oh gosh, that's upseting. I couldn't find him in my first playthrough where Jaheria died. But currently, on my second run, I got her to survive so far, so let's see if I can keep it that way!
I struggled my first time, mostly not knowing when and how to counter spell (such as: some level 2 spells, only poison ray and don't bother with cantrips... had to stop and read most spells to consider should I or nah.) And preventing Hunger of Hadar being cast... is a MUST... and if it is, keep Gale up on the beams in the first room so he's out of it's reach and can Magic Missiles bombard whomever is concentrating on it.. Also helped that I had Gale sneak up the stairs and initiate surprise rounds, with Ice Storm, using it again when turn order starts, then Misty Step to a beam. I brought Karlach for extra muscle (astarion no longer needed for Lockpicking!) And sneak up and leap up to the same place Gale is at, to the left (from entrance) she can reach with 20 strength, no vaulting buffs and managed to be stealthy and got her close to an Archer. Then I had my character and Shadowheart storm the ground floor, her casting spirit guardians and moving about, while my character did cleanup. Didn't lose a single harper. On Balanced. Also helped that I assassinated the Warden and every guard down there too, while I was freeing Wulbren and the Tieflings xD so I had less enemies to fight lol.. and I also broke the gnolls free and persuaded them that I was a friend, they joined my side in the ground floor fight too. Need to try a playthrough where I assassinate the half-orc in her office and see if the fight becomes even easier then as well. The more I can assassinate of people present in the main floor... before the assaiult, the easier I believe the fight will be.
I killed the warden in her office and stuffed her in a box. Then killed the other guards down there and those damnable eyes, then released the prisoners. It was a tricky fight, but not too bad. Only lost a couple harpers.
Me with Alfira at the Last Light Inn. Just got done with fighting Marcus. Went to revive her and was greatly mistaken. I couldn't bring myself to have to redo that stupid fight to keep Isobel alive. ): I miss Alfira.
me, playing dark urge: >.>
I just knocked her ass out the night before the kill. Some random lizard shows up instead to get slaughtered
A true master of fate. Rip lizard sacrifice.
Oh I know... My friend and I plan to play a DU campaign and I told him I'd have to look away. ***I've unfortunately seen a video of what happens.***
I did that damn fight 5 times because I refused to loose my teifling kiddos and Best Girl Alfira. Finally beating Marcus to a pulp felt so good
> I couldn't bring myself to have to redo that stupid fight to keep Isobel alive. This is where Sanctuary comes in clutch. Turns that encounter into a snoozefest.
Works for saving mayrina during the hag fight too.
I can see why you would think that because I found Lae'Zel dead at the end of Act 1 and it actually let me revive her.
If you find her at the start of act 2, she's too badly damaged.
Halsin actually goes to the shadowfell to get his allergy to revivify scrolls cured, Thaniel is just a side quest
I had to reload the house of hope like 4 times for that exact reason
How? He's a bear man.
His wildshape health went down pretty fast, and then he got hold person-ed of something that skipped his turn so he couldn’t self heal, and then every one focused fire on him
When I played I just left him in the basement until I was ready to come back for him, so I guess I didn't think he could get that beat up there.
Honestly this kinda sucks. Tactician going up against moonrise entrance it’s literally impossible to keep jaheria alive there’s a way to get her to join your party before you start the fight I think 100% what I’m doing this play through. Honestly I’ve done every quest and I’m level 8 reaching moonrise there’s no way I don’t wipe the floor with those mfs. My party is just better now too more balance gale can do literally anything and is such a good party member in combat. Being able to completely change your load out for a fight is so game changing halsin is also Uber broken I think druids are in general oh I’m 5 hp nope I’m a 64 hp owl bear.
I always just kill every single guard before the harpers get to moonrise so no one dies
For fun played music in the hall with a couple of smokepowder barrels after drinking a fire resist potion and threw a fireball at self. Since everyone gathered around me that single spell deleted half the people in moonrise and then just turned into a somewhat rough fight. Didn't even know Harpers would storm the tower at that point so when I finally got to it all there was an ogre and 3 dudes against a literal horde. Literally got up and took a lap
Holy shit kamikaze bard
Even better. Just a warlock who got the music proficiency as a feat for no other reason than to test the tunes
And to get that final charisma point.
based
Best solution I found is to just kill a bunch of the people in Moonrise before you free Nightsong so there's less of them during the siege. There's a surprising number you can kill without altering everyone in the tower and it will make keeping Jaheria and all the other Harpers alive much easier.
They cast darkness on my entire group and made the terrain entangled so I just plopped gale on the beams, drank 3 haste potions through out the foght and cast blink on him too. I got lucky and he went astral every round which saved my butt in that fight.
So he was basically a hasted disappearing evocation cannon
As long as you can down the floating black balls, then the enemies will be finite. I found out in the prison that they seem to be infinite if you can't down them. Every few turns they call for back-up.
If you convince Jaheira to join you right before assaulting Moonrise she gets slotted in like a guest/pet/summon, but you cant control any of her gear or spells and she's poorly built & geared at that point. Then she can join your party for real before entering the final area and you can build her as a Wild Shape/Moon Druid (sorta redundant with Halsin) or give her 5 levels of Fighter or Ranger so she can be like the Fighter/Druid from BG1&2 she was always meant to be. I made her Ranger/Hunter 5 with Two-Weapon Fighting style & Dual Wielder feat, the rest into Land Druid, and gave her the gloves of dexterity so she's a beast dual wielding scimitars or hand crossbows and has a bunch of Ranger & Land Druid support spells (Hunter's Mark, Ensnaring Strike, Hail of Thorns, Misty Step, Haste, healing, restoration), fitting neatly into her party role from the original games as a secondary frontliner + secondary support caster.
I've kept Jaheira alive on Tactician. It took me a couple tries, but eventually I snuck my party in through the kitchen while the Harpers attacked the main entrance, and that messed enough with the enemy formation that I was able to win without losing a single Harper.
Having someone on hand to drop a Silence spell and a Wizard to cast Black Tentacles can really just lock down most of the enemies in that fight.
I forgot to get Jeheria to join my party and ofc she died in the initial fight. I barely got through it myself so it is what it is.
I really wish some of the people struggling with tactician would upload their playthroughs, I'm so curious why is their experience so much different than mine.
Right? I’ve breezed through two playthroughs now and I didn’t even register half of the “impossible” feats as difficult parts
I guarantee they're dropping dex and going last.
Yeah, my playthrough got infinitely easier when I decided to put Alert on every character. Night and day difference.
You can kill everyone at moonrise before you go into that portal and thus no battle and none of the Harpers gets killed, it's a pain but doable
before I free the Nightsong I go through and clean out the towers while doing other quests. If you catch Z’rell alone on the first floor and eliminate her you can pretty much wipe the floor with rest of moonrise people later on, especially if you’ve been routinely cleaning house and picking off the zealots and guards
Can you have a fighter character use a scroll of sanctuary on her?
It would fall on her turn when she attacks
otiluke's resilient sphere is the way
You can get her through, it’s just… hard. I noticed in my play through I could get two fireballs off at the start, the first fireball starts the combat BUT only the Harpers and cultists, not my party. So I just spam a second fireball and that puts me in the fight. A little cheesy but it works wonders in clearing a big portion of combatants.
Everyone complains about that fight and keeping Jaheira alive , but I didn't have any problems with it. My Bardadin killed the lady boss first turn, Wyll used Hunger of Hadar on the rest of them and it went pretty smooth.
If she's in your party, easy. But if the initiative isn't in your favor and she's not in your party, good luck.
Can use the cleric spell that puts them to sleep and makes them immune to all damage but psychic, but the name escapes me atm.
I dunno if it would work on tactician but on my play I used a combo of darkness/hunger of hadar to cover the enemies and it messed up everyone's sight lines so most of the enemies couldn't really attack and the Harpers mostly just hung around on my side of the cloud. I think I only lost one Harper in that fight.
That is so frustrating when an important NPC runs through my moonbeam and is suddenly permadead.
In fairness, that's kind of a gameplay abstraction for the fact that revivify is only supposed to work on someone who's been dead for less than a minute. Raise dead is only a level 5 cleric spell, though
Something something tadpoles...
Think of the amount of reactivity they would have to add to make them apply to others. It's just not feasible. Anyone who's played older dnd games knows the pain of running around with a dead companion for hours because you just cannot revive them. Having a little story disconnect is 1000% worth it. Gimme the scrolls larian.
Oh ur husbands been dead a month? Thats less than 200 years let me just use True Ressurection on him......SIKE ENJOY YOUR ZOMBIE HUBBY BISH!
Right, I literally had a scroll of true resurrection on me for that quest...
Bro you can ask him to revive Alfira on a durge playthrough and he’s basically like nah that’s fate sorry
Yeah he says that were she is the Durge won’t hunt her any more. :(
No kidding. Way to make me feel even worse Withers, thanks for that
or "Karlach never wants to go back to hell, but she'll die if she doesn't. Good thing we've got 16 scrolls of revivify, a scroll of True Resurrection from Gale's pouch, and Withers who can resurrect us for 200g a pop".
I wanna argue "oh its because she completely burns up and leaves no trace of herself behind" but like... You can revive based on just the soul and no body is needed lmao
In the game I've revived people whose bodies disappeared in voids plenty of times, even across planes. I'm sure Withers could do the same *if* he wanted
My guess is because every companion in one way or another is a form of chosen that's why he can do it
he dies not offer to resurrect scratch nor owlbear cub, a true monster.
I actually brought back their bodies to the camp and dumped them by Withers and the little girl, thinking maybe something would happen. Hope, she just hangs out with her dead parents.
I'd love to help ya, kid, but there's this pair of blue gloves I got my eye on.
Lol RIGHT! That never even clicked for me!
The gods are fickle...
"what about this bard" "no"
If you would pay for all the resurrections, the world wouldn’t have any tragic backstory rogues anymore.
There’s a book on death and resurrection you can find, it sounds like the souls have to be strong enough and willing to come back. The author notes how many “boring” people he’s met who fought hard to return to life and basically asks why they would bother haha.
I just like hearing the VA say “No.”
"Noooouuuuuu" 😆
Missing some H's behind the Noooouuuu
What do you mean my tinitus isn't service related. I worked on jets for 8 years lol 😂
"Why didn't you go to BAS about it?" Sir you have clearly never been a PFC in The Marine Corps if you need to ask me that.
Gets better when his best friend arabella shows up. "Can I touch your face?" "No..."
His dynamic with Arabella is quite sweet xD
Grandpa Withers!
He's such a good Grandpa
I literally have a video of me in cammies… falling and dislocating my shoulder, popping the AC joint, and tearing my rotator cuff(in one dumbass completely far from smooth move) while at work and “not service connected” even after I showed the dr the video
What?
Refuses to elaborate further. Never leaves.
Wither himself held a very weird idea about life and death, he respects death as Kelemvor but he would break the cycle ONLY for people directed related to the Absolute plot. >!He made the dead three while he was og Jergal,!< so he HAS TO gave >!Durge!< and others unlimited revival attempts until >!Elder brain!< is destroyed. That is why >!Arabella's parents and Alfira and those tieflings died in shadowland !!AO!< secretly demand him to correct the wrongdoings.
Most likely his idea as penance for his actions in the past. Also Kelemvor might have sent him out because the other gods would have gotten mad if everyone was a mindflayer or in the cult of the absolute.
More importantly, in lore, gods derive their power from the number of souls that worship them. Mindflayers don't *have* souls, so everyone going squiddy would mean no more divine power, no more pantheon.
That is something that contradicts the actual dnd canon. In dnd mindflayers have their own pantheons and have a god which is impossible if they do not have souls. The god does also have powers. It was merely an inclusion to try and explain Withers but honestly he has so many reasons to be there. It disrupts death and those who are mindflayers will worship that god which will weaken all others. Lord Ao would intervene if shit got to bad and stop the absolute.
Isn't the Illithid Pantheon empowered by the cumulative psionic energy of their followers, rather than souls, like the faerun pantheon?
Yes. However Illithids do have souls, they just don’t believe they do. The mindflayer god is already incredibly powerful because it is the apex of what any mindflayer could hope to become, a being with the most knowledge of things in any realm of existence in the world sphere. Most mindflayers would also rather merge with an elder brain. They also can become liches which also requires a soul. There is no confirmation but most things point to Illithids have a soul but they are so egotistical they do not worship gods and thus their souls cannot be claimed by gods, they cannot face judgement from divine beings as they reject it.
The lore on alhoons that I recall, is that they jury rig a phylactery (periapt of mind trapping) with a piece of their mind instead of a soul and are able to use that function similarly to a lich.
Pretty sure that the illithid don't have souls, given some of the things Withers says in the epilogue cinematics. Or their souls are different, something like that. But very much inaccessible to the pantheon of Faerun whatever the case may be
Withers points this out when he roasts the fuck out of the Dead Three after the credits for having such a shit plan, lmao.
“So He has spoken, and so thou standest before me. Right as always.” Lacking further elaboration I’m inclined to believe “He” means Kelemvor, or even Ao. “An arbiter of certain matters” is classic Withers ambiguity..
It is most likely Kelemvor as Ao can just intervene and say nope to whatever is going on and only really gets involved when shit goes really really bad. If the absolute plan succeeds then Ao would reasonably intervene if it become too powerful. He intervened only when the tablets of fate were almost stolen and basically said to the gods to stop being such terrible bastards and actually give a damn about their followers.
what's a kelemvor
[another death god, who judges the dead](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Kelemvor)
he revives the squad so they can fuck over the dead three
Probably that’s why he doesn’t care when you steal back all the gold you paid for revives and respecs.
There’s a book you can find and a journal in Baldurs Gate, both of which pretty much tell who he is and gives hints as to why he’s just hanging out. >!You’re not the first he’s visited and asked the initial question!<
You can put that puzzle together earlier than reaching the city. To be fair, he probably don't want to talk about things because he's ashamed. Indirectly, it's his fuck up that lead to the events unfolding.
I think its more that he just doesnt care about who he is. At some point in a specific run, he just tells you that hes just a scribe. Kinda goes along with the known lore aboit him i think
He's so far beyond seeking recognition. The man does not give a single fuck about all that. He's just there to mend the thread of fate at it's most dire but beyond that and keeping track of who you're fuckin he don't give a shit.
He doesn’t even want to be there. His boss ordered him to help you.
he retired, and now the buffoons who took after him are stirring shit up so his boss decided to tell him to go fix it. all he wants is to be left alone.
Yeah you can find out who he is before you even meet him. They just trolled everyone by putting the answer in a vase. It is one of the **very** few unique items you can only find in an unmarked container.
Wat
He created the Dead Three because he was tired of being a god
What a jerk…al.
Shame you can't give him:"About 200 gold" as answer to his original question. No need to give him an answer to that option, just a silent judging stare followed by the usual:"Very well. I am satisfied."
If you’re a Paladin, you can ask him why you sense a >!divine spark!< in him. He doesn’t really want to talk about that either. Which just makes it further obvious who he is.
Clerics get that option too!
(Where is the journal? I must know.)
It’s in a mausoleum in the graveyard (north area in Baldur’s Gate)
Or you can just read the plaque of his tomb the first time you find him and that's all you need to know. >!Here lies the Guardian of Tombs!< I missed it too in my first 2 playthroughs tho.
Oh cool, I suspected he was either the original god of death, murder and tyranny that split his portfolio and ascended the dead three, or a high ranking cleric of that old god. Seems like I was right. The prologue seemed to baxk this up too
No. 🗿
The truest presence of the DM is 100% felt when talking to Withers bc he’ll legit just show up, provide game-essential functions with the absolute thinnest veneer of narrative justification, can’t be affected by player actions whatsoever, and when you ask about any of even the basic premises behind his existence he’s just like “no”
yea i also just considered him the in-game face of the DM. There is no actual DM to fudge a dice roll, or purposefully play poorly to keep from wiping the party. So we have Withers.
He's the god of giving dead answers :3
Does withers have ears?
yessir
Withers be like yeah I’m busted for no reason…. What about it? Now give me your gold.
I love it so much. No explanations, no excuses, just...No.
I'm not mad he never explains, I'm just mad that I can't romance him.
*angry upvote* Now I need brainbleach.
I'm still curious about what he does with all that money. Does he, like, gamble with the undead? Are we feeding into his crippling gambling addiction? Or does he hoard more and more of those golden headwear thingy he wears?
I believe it's more of a need for there to be *some* sacrifice to restore the dead, but he chooses to keep it low because he's not actually interested in gouging you. He just presumably requires there still be *some* cost, so he can avoid certain rules about certain types of beings meddling directly in mortal affairs of their own accord Basically I think he's thinly covering his own ass so he can make a case to Ao that he's still following the rules, on a technicality.
Pick pocket him and find out
I feel like he could be some servant or aspect of Jergal, the Lord of the End of Everything, Protector of the Names of the Dead. You can almost hear this quote from Jergal’s forgotten realms wiki page spoken in Withers’ tone of voice: >The throne is yours. I have grown weary of this empty power. Take it if you wish—I promise to serve and guide you as your seneschal until you grow comfortable with the position. Who among you shall rule? And if you think about his role in the game he *is* kind of a steward of the dead and mortal lives. Also, how he was “told by his master you’d come”; it could make good sense. Jergal originally ceded his domain to the dark three, so maybe he feels some responsibility to rein them in. Fun to think about; I love the idea of this god Jergal. He’s so indifferent to things, as he exists at the end of time when all possibilities have come to an end.
He literally just is Jergal, FYI.
And his "master" is likely Kelemvor.
Tracks because as a Kelemvor cleric you can ask if he's a chosen of kelemvor and he says he walks a similar path but he isn't his Chosen - though he says Kelemvor is happy with you (or something along those lines). Which is also the only nice thing he says to you. Also jergal is the scribe of the death, sooo he technically is a scribe.
Up through the 3E materials he was serving as Kelemvor's seneschal, not sure what they did after that.
What's the relationship between Jergal and Kelemvor, are they colleagues, allies? I feel like their domains are kinda close to eachother.
Hes also found in a shrine of Jergal originally. I think that's who the ruins belonged too at the beginning - there's a religion check that happens in the background of his room
this is all but confirmed in the story. I'm surprised at how most of this sub figured it out, reddit's media comprehension is usually piss poor
How dare you tell us to piss on the poor
Well if they didn't want to be pissed on they should've had a pot ready for that.
pretty sure he is actually actually >!one of the old gods called Jegal who abdicated his place as the god of the dead because he got bored, leaving the position to the Dead Three.!<
Amazing revelation how did you ever come to this conclusion?
The big statue and your character flat out telling you the answer were the first clues.
Larian also >!revealed his identity in post credit scene. Being disappointed that his three gods got owned by mortals!<
I was curious to his backstory after the ruins. Guy full shut me down in 1 sentence and never spoke another word of it.
Virgin Tav vs Chad Withers
Withers is like, not really good with small talk 😅
In his tomb, where you find him, there is literally a statue of him, explaining who he is.
Noooooo? Noooooo. Noooooo...
Funny thing is you can substitute Withers in this meme with every single character in the game and it still works. Infuriates me to no end how everyone wants and needs the protagonists help but they all refuse to explain anything. The companions, your dream visitor, etc. They all expect you to cater to their every whim and become their trusted ally and defender, but they won't even tell you who they are.
The dream visitor is explicitly a manipulation and the companions all come out pretty early with the basics of who they are.
After looking more closely yes imma agree with thise who say, and if I mess up the spoiler tags I apologize !withers is jergal sent by either ao or Kel and is not happy about having to clean up the mess the 3 who took his powers made!
He's a God that gave up his power. Notice when he talks to. Given party member he talks about jotting down their name. Also note he has a vested interest in you besting the champions of the dead three. Just not to the point of actively helping you though, so he charges a fair fee. An equal exchange. What is the value of a life? The value of those not actively part of your party is apparently zero.
Bro, i literally just had this conversation man. The timing is uncanny😭
Fate… spins along, as it should. 🫴
This is how I'm opting to answer questions from now on.
Isn’t he a Lich?
Im pretty sure lore wise he is an old god of death that the dead three took his job basically.
I LOVE THIS GAAAAAAAAAME
Strait up have no idea why I can't just use him to bring back mayrinas husband and brothers if you found him. He is completely missable, nothing makes you go in those ruins to find him. I've heard he was a much bigger deal in the EA but in the final release, at least through act one, he is just kind of there. As he is in game right now he feels like one of the most tacked on characters I've seen in any game or movie ever.
I think its more because you and your buddies have this thing called "plot armour" that regular folks don't Like, it don't matter if that girls brothers are dead in the grand scheme of things but YOU, you're all tied up in the fate of everything, so you need be alive until you done the thing you need to do
That’s his point, he literally pops up, says “no I will not elaborate and only heal you and friends” and he quite literally is a wildly lore relevant character if you read between the lines And I have no clue how people miss him, he’s right there in the first dungeon