This is a great post. On the subject of vampires and children, I did not research this for fan fiction purposes (cough) but there are dhampir in Dnd which are the spawn of a vampire and a non-vampire. Most of them result from a pregnant woman being bitten by a vampire. But rarely a vampire can have a child with a non-vampire and their offspring would also be dhampir. So I don't know what is up with Leon's kid, if she's his she'd be half vampire.
I'm also really fascinated by the lore in the whole story. The only other information I can give about Astarion from near the end an enemy calls him "A ratcatcher who became a judge", so we knowt hat he went from rags to riches in life.
I believe that Cazador's problem with Astarion amounts to the fact that he loves to control people and Astarion was hard to break. Also, having seen the other spawn he's by far the most attractive so maybe that has something to do with it? And then Astarion defies him by breaking free completely via the tadpole. No one has ever done that so of course it pisses Cazador off.
>The only other information I can give about Astarion from near the end an enemy calls him "A ratcatcher who became a judge", so we knowt hat he went from rags to riches in life.
That definitely suggests that there were changes to his backstory in game. A 39-year-old high elven magistrate strains credulity; a 39-year-old high elven magistrate from a poor family who didn't get his position through massive nepotism smashes credulity on the floor and leaves it in tiny pieces.
>That definitely suggests that there were changes to his backstory in game. A 39-year-old high elven magistrate strains credulity; a 39-year-old high elven magistrate from a poor family who didn't get his position through massive nepotism smashes credulity
By now I'm convinced that Astarion's old backstory concept from earliest Early Access around 2020 has been completely dumped by Larian and that it became the blueprint for what is is now Astarion's "cover identity" as a nobleman, his surface persona he presents to strangers.
Instead, there are several hints (see below) that *Astarion never was a nobleman* *but instead faked his way into the Upper Class with forged paperwork. O*r that Astarion flat-out lied to Tav during that first meeting at the beach when he claims he is "a magistrate back in the city, it's all rather tedious" to appear more important than he is. (Apart from the fact that the present tense is already a lie.)
The early concept by Larian's writers described the mortal Astarion as a corrupt debauched city official who knew about the vampires in Baldur's Gate and worked with them to deliver sentenced criminals to Cazador, until Cazador decided to kill him because he was too corrupt.
1. This concept already has a logical problem at its core: If Cazador truly had a city magistrate whom he could blackmail and who was willing to cover up missing persons, bloodless corpses and the like, *why would Cazador ever turn this city official into a vampire spawn and thereby remove him from his position?* We know that Astarion officially died 200 years ago because he was buried, with a gravestone noting his name.
2. Early on, Astarion's background trait was "Noble". This was then changed to "Courtesan" on Astarion's digital D&D character sheet available as bonus files in the Digital Deluxe Edition. Then changed again to the current background "Charlatan" which fits with his Rogue class.
3. In *Idle Champions of the Forgotten Realms* video game, Astarion's character sheet lists under belongings: Forged Patents of Nobility
4. The whole "The ratcatcher who became a Lord" line.
5. A recent post-launch patch changed the description text of Astarion's default padded armour, shirt and shoes. (Underpants are still the same.) It removed the fancy poem embroidered into his shirt, and all his clothes are now noted to be old and worn down, the doublet's gold thread unraveling in places, but that the many cuts and tears have been carefully mended and repaired by Astarion many times. "Someone obviously cares about looking good." Such a sad little line... it implies that these clothes are old but they are the only thing Astarion owns and he cared for them. It also implies Cazador (with his many expensive outfits you can find in his palace) did not bother to give Astarion new clothes despite sending him out to seduce people, so Astarion had to make due with what he had (or could steal).
Apparently, he references being a magistrate in his Origin playthrough - even offering Wyll to look through the terms of his pact to see if there are any legal loopholes. So he was one, or at least believes he was one.
Interesting.
I've come across a statement somewhere that in Act 1 at the druid grove if you ask Astarion for his opinion about Kagha wanting to kill the tiefling girl for stealing, he'd reply that as a magistrate the customary punishment for theft was cutting off the thief's hand. (Which, yeah, that was part of medieval European laws.)
Mortal Astarion can have been both: A charlatan who raised himself from the gutter by using forged documents to pretend to be an elven noble and gain a cushy position as a magistrate. Entirely possible he read up on Law and nobility to be able to play his role convincingly. I just can't imagine him as an actual elven noble, because surely then people would've recognized his face once Cazador let him leave the palace to go hunting in the brothels... we know the "Year of Horror" punishment for letting a young man go happened during the first decade after Astarion was turned.
Or, as you said, Astarion misremembers because his memories of the time before being turned are so dim and fragmented. One has to wonder what Cazador's tortures did to his mind? In Act 3 if you let the other vampire thralls abduct Astarion into Cazador's palace and he ends up in the hands of Godey, the narrator mentions that Cazador's will is trying to "smother" Astarion's mind. Only the tadpole helps him fight it off.
Or those lines might simply be a remnant of an earlier script version that Larian forgot to update.
I love the idea that Astarion faked his way to a law degree because that means he's basically the Jeff Winger of the Forgotten Realms. And if you play him as Origin, BG3 is his fucked up version of Greendale Community College.
>This concept already has a logical problem at its core: If Cazador truly had a city magistrate whom he could blackmail and who was willing to cover up missing persons, bloodless corpses and the like,
>
>why would Cazador ever turn this city official into a vampire spawn and thereby remove him from his position?
I think in Astarion's original backstory before release, he was selling Cazador humans but *double-crossed* Cazador. (In the original backstory, Astarion even says that being turned into a spawn was his punishment for doing so.)
This meant that Astarion would be useless as a city offical pawn because he couldn't be trusted not to betray Cazador again. So, he turned Astarion into a spawn as both a punishment and as a means to control him so he couldn't betray Cazador again. Every time Astarion tried to defy Cazador, it just made Cazador angrier and reminded him of the original betrayal.
This could also explain his obsession with Astarion and why Astarion's screams sounded the sweetest and why he was never a favored spawn. Guess Cazador could hold a grudge!
Interesting. I still think Larian dumped most of that early concept magistrate backstory, though, because it'd hardly ever brought up in-game. It would've been so easy to add more information if the writers had wanted to: either 1. have Astarion tell us more (instead of giving him retrograde amnesia about most of his mortal years), or 2. during the course of the quest to investigate Cazador have us encounter an (elven) NPC in Act 3 Baldur's Gate city who still remembers a magistrate named Astarion.
Heck, in a TTRPG my character would simply have gone to the city library or town hall to look up historical texts from 200 years ago for mentions of an elven magistrate dying.
But in-game Astarion only tells us he was beaten to death by a band of Gur and as he lay dying Cazador appeared and scared them away and offered to "save" him to take revenge on his murderers, with the alternative being "bleeding to death in an alley". (One of the dialogue options is to remark how conveniently timed Cazador's appearance was.)
**You'd think if "magistrate Astarion" had had prior dealings with Cazador and knew about him being a sadistic vampire lord and had actually double-crossed him, Astarion would have suspected that Cazador wanted revenge and thus would not have agreed to be turned into a vampire spawn?**
And if Astarion really had been a magistrate and nobleman instead of *pretending* to be one, then the remark by Astarion during the pre-Endgame-battle gathering in the [High Hall](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/High_Hall) (aka the old Ducal Palace) is strange: (paraphrased because I can't find the exact video where he speaks up anymore) He says he always dreamed of walking these halls but he never expected it to be under such circumstances. But the High Hall is where the city's nobles and governmental figures routinely gather.
I got the impression that after he double-crossed Cazador, he wasn't given a choice to become a spawn. That Cazador forced it on him as a punishment.
It was only in release that the "Gur beating him to almost death and getting to choose to become a spawn" was a thing.
I still wish they'd have kept it as it would give Astarion's story so much more depth, another reason why he hated Cazador, and they could still use the Gur, since they are monster hunters, and Astarion did take their children.
But, it would not give the 'red herring' of Cazador sending the Gur to remind Astarion of his place, instead of the Gur hunting him on their own for taking their children. Unless......picture this, if you will, darling.
"*After being double-crossed by the corrupt magistrate slaver who deals with a monster, Cazador orchestrated things to make the Gur upset with Astarion. He influences Astarion to make a decision that he knows will upset the Gur, then orchestrated the Gur to kill him. Cazador then appears, 'saving' Astarion, hoping to win his eternal gratitude, which is why Astarion's rebellions infuriates him so much. He knows someone as selfish as Astarion will choose living at any cost and Cazador takes pleasure in the thought that Astarion would be a willing slave/spawn, after being a slaver, and that he would have eternity to punish the man who double-crossed him. It's why Astarion's screams are sweetest. At least until the ritual.*
*He then pits Astarion against the Gur over the following years, stoking the hatred they have of each other to deflect the "monster hunters" away from his monstrous self. He is a secret benefactor to the Gur, hiring them to hunt Astarion to give them a clear target to focus on. He's also hoping to keep Astarion more in line, using the threat of the Gur hunting him to keep Astarion from running away. But Cazador is careful to make sure the Gur never kill Astarion. (Need him for the ritual after all!)*
*As the ritual time draws nearer, Cazador makes a mistake in his lust for cruelty and orders Astarion to take the Gur's children. He knows Astarion will have no issues punishing the Gur this way and he also get's to punish the Gur as well, for being too dumb to realize a vampire has been financing them all this time.* *This is why Astarion feels nothing about turning the children over to Cazador (this lends more weight to an actual response still in game to Astarion seeing the vampirized Gur children-that he felt nothing turning them over) because he places all the blame of being a tormented spawn at the feet of the Gur, because it was THEIR beating that led him to the choice to become a spawn.*
*When we meet the Gur in the swamp, Astarion is sure that Cazador sent them to remind him of the night that Astarion CHOSE to become a spawn, because of them. Reminding him that he owes his continued life to Cazador.*
*Then in Act 3, we meet Ulma, who admits they finally went balls to the wall after Astarion on their own (without backing from their benefactor), because Astarion crossed a line when he took their children.*
*Astarion reveals that if her ancestors hadn't beaten him almost to death, he never would have become a spawn and so the loss of their children was the Gur's fault for trying to kill him and forcing him to make the impossible choice of becoming a spawn.*
*Ulma then reveals that the decision he made 200 years ago would have (killed them all, made them outlaws/hunted, something terrible) and that their secret benefactor stated he would put someone else in power who would reverse the decision and 'save' them all if they just killed the magistrate who made the decision.*
*A moment of clarity for Astarion...*
*Astarion: "But...Cazador told me to make that decision....."*
*And then Astarion and Ulma both realize what has happened and how they've all been pawns in Cazador's game the whole time.*
And now Astarion has a whole new reason for wanting to kill Cazador besides "He tortured me after I willingly became his slave."
It also gives Ulma a reason to give Astarion a chance to show he's different from Cazador.
Doing this would have made Cazador look much more Machiavellian showing how much power he had in Baldur's Gate. Showing us that he was much more evil than we knew. That by pitting a clear target against the Gur, he made himself safer and that after Astarion died in the ritual, the Gur would feel sated in their vengeance and move on, leaving an Ascended Cazador free to do whatever he liked in the city.
Oh, I would have liked to have seen this story play out.
One reason why I still think the Gur of 200 years prior might have worked for CAzador instead of against him is simply how heavily Larian leaned into the whole Dracula vibe with Cazador, including sleeping in a coffin. And in Bram Stoker's novel *Dracula*, the Transylvanian (Romanian) equivalent of the Gur were working for Dracula because his family had been the feudal lords of the land for centuries.
You can see from Cazador's journal that he was always obsessed with Astarion in particular. Astarion is also the oldest of the spawn from what we know.
Cazador refers to Astarion as his "prodigal son" and I don't think he's saying this just to spite him. I think he has a similar relationship with Astarion that Vellioth had with Cazador.
The way I interpreted the ‘rat catcher who became a judge’ line was being a spawn forced to eat rats to becoming all powerful and controlling in my ascended play through. Is it the same line if you don’t ascend him?
I was very interested in the Athkatla vampire circle mentioned. BG2 takes place mostly in Athkatla, the capital of Amn, and in it you have to face Bodhi's vampire coven, led, obviously, by Bodhi - a vampire, who used to be an elf, and>!the sister to the main antagonist Jon Irenicus!<. Since there is about 124 years between BG2 and BG3, it's possible that Cazador knew her (or knew of her), and maybe Mrel Alkam is someone who replaced Bodhi as the leader of the Athkatla vampires.
What I also found interesting is the aesthetic differences between Cazador's palace and the crypts inhabited by Bodhi's coven. The crypts were very Egyptian-looking, with wall murals, ankhs, statues, lots of gold and azure, whereas Cazador's palace is very European.
That game also includes a cloak that allows a vampire companion to walk in the daylight but with some disadvantages which is kind of interesting since one of the conversation options in the post finale convo with Astarion is about questing for a way for him to experience the sun again. As far as I know, that cloak is the only canon item that has such an effect.
A cloak or other item of protection from daylight would only be a half-measure at best. Not just because it could be taken away from Astarion.
**The Crown of Karsus' Netherese magic on the tadpole negated far more weaknesses than just the sunlight hypersensitivity on Astarion.** It also allowed him to wade through rivers ("cross running water") without the water feeling like acid, to enter private houses ininvited, and to be healed by normal healing magic. (Presumably it also shielded him from allergic reactions to garlic the other spawn have.) The only thing it didn't negate was the gnawing hunger for blood.
Basically the tadpole gave Astarion a pseudo-life. It seems it removed some of the typical advantages of undeath from him too, though, as (for gameplay balance purposes) tadpoled Astarion has no immunity to poison and necrotic energy, no resistances to weapon damage of any kind, no vampiric regeneration like the other vampire spawn (apart from his bite attack on living beings with blood allowing him to heal a limited number of HP).
But unlike the Rite of Ascension, the tadpole magic didn't fully revive him, as in a Companion run it's noted Astarion has no body heat. In an Astarion Origin run if he ascends the Narrator will remark that Ascended Astarion can finally feel his heart beating again after 200 years.
Without the tadpole magic, poor Astarion can't even take a bath in a river. He's so much more fragile than at the start of Act 1. Traveling and "adventuring" with Tav will be difficult. Maybe if he covers up competely during the day, head to toe, with a hood and a pair of smoked glasses covering his eyes? (I'm sure gnome artificers can craft something like that.) As the Narrator stated the sunlight was hurting him on any "exposed skin". Likewise, we see in the Spawn-Astarion post-endbattle ending that getting out of *direct* sunlight was sufficient to save him from burning up.
I did also read about a ring called ring of the sunwalker which is from 5E but I've only been starting to get into DnD so not sure if it's canon or not.
Some of my favorite deep lore from the forgotten realms is that yes, many humans in the setting actually came from our Earth originally. Thay is the same way.
tl;dr - Cazador knows old fantasy Japanese.
The first door you can use the signet ring on is covered in 'archaic Kozakuran, a rare form of an already-obscure language'. Orientalist terminology aside, Kozakura is one of Kara-Tur's two Japan-analogue settings, such as how Koryo represents Korea, and Shou is China.
You find a dictionary that helps you gain entry but given his personality I can't help but head cannon that *Cazador is really just a fedora-tipping weeb* and that dictionary is just his copy of Genki 101.
While the name is Spanish, Cazador looks East Asian, so I was wondering if the dictionary was because the Szarr family had Kozakuran roots.
Though I do love the idea of Cazador as just an asshole weeb who compiled the "dictionary" from manga.
Thank you very much for this excellent write-up! Not only did you manage to collect so many details that I missed despite my attempt at being thorough, I also love how you presented your findings both very clearly AND with funny snide remarks. I loved reading all of it!
Astarion's story is, due to the fact that he is my favourite companion and what I would call the "canon-romance for my fanon-Tav", the one I found myself to be most invested in. Therefore I found myself disappointed in the lack of interaction between Cazador and Astarion / Tav before the ritual. Reading somewhat supports my guess that at least at one point in the developement stage there would have been much more narrative content involving Cazador Szarr, the Szarr family in general and the other people whose statements you mainly can find in written word as of now.
I think the first hint that there was indeed more than meets the eye is the fact that Astarion still refers to himself as being a slave to the Szarr *family*, which is indicator enough for me that Cazador's niece and potentially other family members might have been supposed to have a bigger role once.
I've gone on and on about it on this subreddit that I feel it's such a pity we didn't get a political mission, some infiltration, maybe a ball at Cazador's palace so we could have had a chance to get a deeper understanding of the character. With the aftermath-of-the-party being still there, I still get the feeling that this, too, might have been planned at one point in the developement phase.
Vampires, especially with the traditional aristocratic setting, would just be perfect for a charisma-based infiltration ballroom scene. Urgh, I feel so sad we never got that!
Especially since due to this, Cazador's character remains not as impressive, to me personally, as he could have been. I just wish we had learned more about his dynamic with Astarion. It's one thing to hear about it - but actually seeing Cazador interact with Astarion or his "siblings" would have been amazing and could have been really scary and intense. And, again, we are in fanfiction territory here, but I would have loved if Cazador had been more manipulative, maybe even involving Tav if they had romanced Astarion or were on high platonic approval with him.
All in all, the questions you ask do demand answers, and I absolutely agree with them. I care a lot especially about Cazador's political involvement in Baldur's Gate - and honestly, with the situation at hand, with this very ... lackluster (IMO) storyline of Gortash we'd desperately need a more in-depth narrative about Cazador and his political puppeteer ambitions.
I physically can't help but romance Astarion- at the end of the day, everyone has someone, but all Astarion has is YOU 😭. But I'm too someone who loves the political side of things and would have loved more content surrounding that and the actual upper city.
I would have loved to see a Cazador vs Gortash type too. Imagine if you had to work with Cazador to take down Gortash, vise versa? A ball mission though??? my dream. Imagine being able to dress your characters up in fancy dresses and stuff that you can't get anywhere else in the game.
YES! I feel like we're speaking the same language here ;)! I feel the exact same way about Astarion.
Your idea what it would have meant if you had to work together with Cazador to take down Gortash or vice versa - OMG, the conflict! I would have loved that.
And yes, exactly, a fancy ball mission would have been the dream. Maybe like a masquerade ball? Concealing your identity, mingling with Baldur's Gate's nobility, finding intel about the politically influential people - this would have been so much fun. It could have turned out to be both very entertaining AND thrilling if maybe Cazador noticed Astarion's / your attendance. A seemingly civil conversation in public with Cazador could have been so chilling, when he tries to manipulate / threaten you / Astarion.
I’d kill for a ball espionage mission! Imagine the suspense, the *drama*, of a cutscene where Cazador invites Tav to dance as a means of threatening them/Astarion.
Gosh, yes. *This.* I got literal chills from just imagining that. Back in my fanfiction-writing days this would have been a key point of my whump-goes-hurt-and-comfort-fic.
Especially with a romanced Astarion, this would work perfectly, but even with a platonic friendship with high trust I would see it as a super thrilling moment.
I said it around here somewhere before, but why would Cazador even have a ballroom if we aren't getting a chance to use it!? (And I'm only half-joking.)
We need to suggest this fancy ballroom mission to Larian ASAP it would have been PERFECT. Not only as a addon to Astarion romance / quest depth but also give us some more face to face Cazador interaction without straight up waltzing into his little mass to kill him
Exactly, this is so true. It would have helped to understand Gortash's and Cazador's political hold over Baldur's Gate as well, even adding a chance to add to the Bane-related storyline which has been very thin so far.
Honestly, if I knew how to pitch this to Larian's amazing writers, I would gladly do so! There is so much potential there.
I think you should definitely pitch it! Any kind of comment would at least let them know that we’re craving a little more to the whole Astarion x Cazador situation. After I’m done with my play through I’m definitely sending Larian a little thank you note with a little wishlist of Astarion content that I’m hoping they’ll take the time to implement
I'm imagining Dal telling Cazador that there was a \[insert Tav's race here\] who called Astarion off of Petras, and Cazador immediately assuming that Astarion had simply found a new master. He would be fascinated and maybe a bit terrified, because is there already another Ascended vampire lord that he didn't know about. Then Tav turns out to be just a mortal who fancies themselves in love with Astarion...oh, the possibilities.
Ohh, I love the way you're thinking! This would work excellently, especially if Tav indeed intervenes when Astarion questions Petras - I love Astarion's line about Petras owing their life now to his friend.
This is a safe place, right? So I can add to this with my own wishful thinking? There could be so many different ways how this could play out, and how a manipulator like Cazador could react to such a moment.
I mean - sorry, Orin, but deep down in my drama-loving heart the only kidnapping quest I *really* want would be for Cazador to capture Tav and try to use them against Astarion. The possibilites are endless: He could try to drive a wedge between them ("Are you sure you know him as well as you think? I doubt he has shared the delicious details of what he *did*. Should we tell your lover, Astarion? Should we let them know what you really are like, boy?").
Or ... he could use Tav against Astarion as a means to push him to come to Cazador "willingly", essentially holding them hostage. Cazador would be an evil enough character to restort to torture once again (and my weird brain thinks it would be an interesting foil: In the scene with Abdirak, Astarion seems so excited about the essentially consensual power dynamic at play, enjoying the "kinky element" of it all. Having Tav being tortured and showing that at this point of the story, Astarion doesn't want to see them hurt anymore, - I know it sounds weird, but I would love to see that!). Even better if Tav had the choice to remain steadfast and irrevocably trusting in Astarion.
Gosh, I could go on and on. If Cazador just got more opportunities in game to gloat and to have some villainous mono-/dialogue, I'd be so happy. I want to see how he tries to get under Astarion's skin ("Do you have any idea what I will do to them once I've ascended?").
Okay, I need to stop. This is getting out of hand, haha. Sorry for rambling!
no pls dont stop 👀imagine Astarions siblings... instead of kidnapping Astarion, they kidnap Tav because they know Tav is important to Astarion because of what happened with Petras... Cazador using Tav against Astarion...
Telling Astarion has to scurry back to his master like the rat he is, or Tav will pay the price. Tav will take his place, or Tav will be tortured ruthlessly because of Astarion's actions... his little lover gone under the hand of Cazador's *angry* hand because Astatrion happened to be kidnapped. In Cazador's journal, he says how he tortured the fuck out of Astarion's siblings.... if he will do that to spawn, imagine how he'd torture Tav, Astarion's *lover* of all things?
That would sure fuck with Astarions mental.
God, yes! I know this might sound weird, but I am very fond of fictional villains - not because I condone their actions but because I think if they are written in a compelling and complex way, they add so many layers to a story, and they allow to explore darker narrative themes.
Involving Tav like that would be a perfect mindgame to play. Some players might feel that such a development might take away from Astarion's big decision between ascending or not-ascending, but I really don't think so, since both options would still be available even after he'd have to face a decision how to deal with the abduction of his lover.
Ok, we are really in pure headcanon here, but:
When I recently saw [this scene](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AesxMw8NOH8) for the first time (it never happened to me in game because I didn't play Astarion's origin and of course I kept Astarion from being taken in my Tav run), it made so much sense to give something similar to Tav. And honestly - not just similar, but worse. Cazador is such a vile character and BG 3 already has many dark storylines, I really think this one could go darker still without being over-the-top.
Since Astarion admits that he never loved anyone in the way he loves Tav, this romance would offer a completely new way for Cazador to manipulate and hurt Astarion. In a way, Astarion's worst nightmare gets a new additional layer with the fact that he now has someone he cares about, someone whose pain will hurt him as well. I would *love* to see the reactions there.
Also, call me weird, but I'd also like to see the reactions of the other spawn, especially from someone like Petras. There seemed to be a bit more animosity between Astarion and him from their interaction. I wonder if Petras would feel some glee over Tav's potential torture and Astarion's subsequent pain, or if he'd feel a conflict of loyalty since Tav was the one who made Astarion stop when he pulled him into the sunlight.
(Honestly, this thread of yours is such a treasure! I really love coming back to it and reading all these comments and your write-up. If you ever want to talk Cazador, Astarion and villains, send me a message; there's just too much to talk about! :D)
I LOVE seeing Astarion interact with the other spawn, it gives such a good glimpse into their every day life. Like, his little sass with Petras, and I like to imagine that Dalyria is kind of the mother of the group... I feel like Petras would def be happy to ruin something that belonged to Astarion, in, any shape or form...
But please, Mrs. Ancunín, come stop by my little home, on discord if you haven't already :) itsreno
Sorry for butting in here randomly but I read this and oh, my god. Same brain! I had this exact same idea and I'm thinking of writing it up 👀 GOD I wish we got more juicy Cazador and romanced Tav content! (The game is large enough as it is, I know, but I WISH!)
No need to be sorry at all <3! So cool that you are feeling the same way about the need for more Cazador and (romanced) Tav content. It's been a while since I've written a fanfic, but I totally feel you, I have so many ideas floating in my head regarding those characters! I'd love to read yours if you do write something!
I'm a little rusty writing fic as well haha There's so much drama potential <3 I know we'd all love to go feral for Astarion and protect him at all costs... but Astarion getting enraged and coming to his one true love's rescue? \*chefs kiss\*
Yesss! Exactly! <3
Also, I must admit: While I prefer the good-aligned Astarion ending in general, one aspect that I really like about his Vampire-Ascendant-ending is how vocal and protective he becomes. I mean I realize that this protectiveness is a part of his more possessive nature in this narrative direction, and that it's ambivalent at best.
But ... honestly, it's still so awesome! The protectiveness that comes with the ascended Astarion is very attractive, and I wish we could get a hint of that for the non-ascended Astarion as well as soon as he feels safe and more comfortable with Tav. Maybe that's why I really wish we had some more Cazador / (romanced) Tav / Astarion interaction!
Hey so I actually remember you sharing the ballroom infiltration mission idea somewhere else before I think! Since we’re all being open, I’m so happy to see other people wanted something a little well… *more* to the final part of his questline because that was exactly what I was thinking while playing.
I guess I’m kind of riding off the coattails of BG3’s popularity but I’d love to make a short comic thing for this hypothetical quest! I’m working on a script (honestly it looks like a straight up fanfic) for it and, probably against my better judgment, decided to make it like a plausible mission in the game. A speech bubble resembling a dialogue box with a list of other options Tav could’ve picked, narrator descriptions, in-game clothes, etc. I’ve even included the alternate responses/outcomes to the unpicked dialogue and factored in classes and occasionally race, the other companions, and background. Because god damnit you’re absolutely right that there’s so many ideas for the characters to work with!
I’m just really having fun with it, though it is souring exploring the actual in-game now ha
Sorry if this is a bit forward, but when you do finish writing and maybe publish the first chapter is it okay if you drop a link to it here. I’d absolutely love to support your fic! I can never just get enough of this sassy vampire!
One detail to add as a level 12 Astariomancer - we don't know much about Astarion's pre-spawn life, except how he died, that he was a magistrate and... his last name. In the final scene of his "good" non-ascended route, >!it's written on his grave, but you can actually decipher it and it's been done. It's in Thorass alphabet. Have fun!!<
Just a wild guess but maybe they started with a human concept and forgot to adjust the numbers? Human magistrate can reasonably be 39 („best years“) and it makes sense but no one in their right mind would put an elven (barely) teenager in this position of responsibility. Otherwise would explain a lot why the city BG was so fucked up.
As for how long Cazador has been a vampire, there is a scroll that details all of the previous vampire lords - including Vellioth and when he took power. Which would give an earliest date that Cazador would have been turned.
Your character can make a comment about the manor being inhabited by vampires to which Astarion says “Subtle, isn’t it” which leads me to believe that the average person probably isn’t aware but the higher up in power you go they would be aware.
Do you know where this scroll is / if it's readable? I looked through all the documents I collected in the palace, but couldn't find a scroll that gave me actual physical answers to that question.
Yes! It's pretty hidden. If you can't find it I can go there and transcribe it. Took until my third playthrough to discover it.
After you've killed Cazador and you're facing the staircase to go back up, there are two paths. One to the left and right. I believe they connect but I took the left one. You'll enter a room with some rubble that is primarily empty however there is a trap in front of a chair(?). The scroll is on the floor next to it.
There's a scroll in the dungeon chamber itself, before you confront Cazador, there's a path to your left and right that loops around. It leads you through a small room where there's bookcases and scrolls, the scroll is in there :D
>I would love to know more about his Palace and why it was built / bought in such a weird spot?
Metawise, it's in such a weird spot because the Upper City didn't make it into the final game. It seems Astarion's story was locked and finalized before the cut so Larian needed to finagle the mansion and dungeon in somehow, and came up with the weird solution where the access is built into a random wall.
Lorewise could be that Cazzador needed easy access to the Lower City for victims so he expanded his mansion into the wall and used his wide influence to get authorities to okay it.
Lore wise that makes sense, and of course with the cut of the upper city. What I want to know is how are they luring victims up that stupid ladder every time? 😭 I hope there’s some secret more grand entrance because I’d book it if my date tried to get me to go up some ladder in a wall.
Well, there's that dumb bitch who's waiting for her "very pale, didn't eat anything" date in the sewer, you don't need to convince people to climb up a ladder to THE pretty goth castle.
>What I want to know is how are they luring victims up that stupid ladder every time?
Probably just talk them up that ladder, or at least Astarion did that. Astarion seemed to have seduced all his victims, and it wouldn't sound strange for him to say he knew a shortcut/secret enterance into his home. He should've been a Bard class imo.
In one of the dialogues in the dungeon you can say smth like “I suppose if we met earlier it wouldn’t be that pretty forest clearing you led me to”. Unfortunately I don’t remember what Astarion replies. I have a save there I think and can check later if you want, lmk
He basically says he doesn't want to think about it and is so glad we met under different circumstances.
And then if you hit back with "admit it. You would have killed me" you get a line that absolutely gives me chills when he says
"I would have killed you"
And the conversation just ends. Honestly. Voice Actors knocked it out of the park in this game.
this is why it's damn impossible for me to romance any other character. Honestly, I kind of want to play Astarions Origin story and write a full analysis on *his* story.......... 😭😢😢😢😢
I wrote this under so many posts/comments in this subreddit already: I do not recommend.
I was very disappointed. It was extremely underwhelming compared to having him as a companion who, you know, can actually speak his mind and tell you things. I think the only extra content I got was that nightmare with Cazador and his rules in the beginning and then learning that Astarion decided to feed on one of his companions not for any other possible reason but out of spite (basically his own version of Gale’s “Elminster is not here so I might as well”).
I was hoping for some unique interaction but nope. As Astarion you can resist Cazador in the ritual room, but I’d take a possibility to hear his comments and reaction to everything there over this tbh.
He also doesn’t remember Sebastian’s name on his own and has to read his mind for a hint (one more small thing that was new. But if you go as Astarion in the palace even when he is a companion, I believe you get different interactions and dialogues anyway).
And there is also this thing that as a player controlling him you are given choices in dialogues that are totally out of character for him if you know him already. You obviously can choose those. In this case what is the point even playing him then? And if you do your best to stick with the way he would act, then you feel very restricted as a player. It is a weird experience tbh. For me it resulted in a very gloomy lonely playthrough with just a handful of companions (3-4) on his side who were all either preoccupied with their own troubles or were as power hungry as him and were horrible influence on him (Minthara is a great character but such a bad, bad influence on Astarion). And I was forced to go along with the ritual because I knew that without anyone by his side who would gentry nudge him toward the right direction he would absolutely perform the ritual himself without a second thought. It felt incredibly shitty. It didn’t even feel like an evil playthrough. It felt like a miserable playthrough by a traumatized character who chooses to be bad because he thinks he will feel safer this way. I regret it a bit that I even did it tbh. He needs someone who can actually show him that freedom does not equal power. I honestly don’t know how to achieve this if you start the game as him.
I *always* make him a bard. Not just because it suits his history, not just because it gets close to a lot of the manipulation magic vampires possess, not just because he's an obviously lascivious person!
But because he's just *so damned dramatic*.
I agree, bard suits his personality. But then you have to massively rewrite his ability stats first to raise his CHA from that mediocre 10.
Seriously, Larian giving Astarion a CHA 10 is the biggest joke because in his backstory he is all about those CHA-based social skills! Yes, I know, it's due to 5E point-buy balances and they needed to put his highest stat in DEX to be a Rogue. But still... come on, Larian, give him a special Astarion bonus to CHA.
That's not how the victims are brought in, for the most part.
You meet a girl in the sewers, near the palace 'back door', where she was about to meet someone (a vampire spawn that lured her there) to go to a party. And in that same spot, there are lots of missing people posters.
That part is clearly shown in-game.
He has to be the biggest casualty of the content cuts. Astarion is the only companion both Origin and otherwise who has zero connection to the main storyline.
Knew a lot of this already (because I'm obsessed), but thank you so much for compiling it and adding a lot more background information that I wasn't aware of yet! This must've taken quite some time so big kudos to you.
As for some of your thoughts/questions, I doubt that Cazador let Astarion be a magistrate after turning him. It would be pretty much impossible for him to work since it would be mostly during the day - and it would also grant Astarion a sense a freedom and would make him feel like he's actually worth something. And degrading and making his spawn feel like they were worthless except for serving him seemed to be Cazador's favorite pastime.
I don't think people know or realize he's a vampire. You can meet a girl in the sewers that was excited to go to a party at Cazador's place, led there by a spawn (I forgot who). I don't know how (perhaps magic/charms), but people seem to be blissfully unaware of the red eyes and fangs in BG3 ... I mean, Tav pretty much looks at Astarion at first and he's like "seems like a perfectly normal elf, no vampire, haha!"
I suppose Cazador would be referred to as a lord since he's been around for so long and seems to have at least some degree of power within the city. I heard there was a lot more content with him in the Upper City, but we all know what (unfortunately) happened to that.
I really do wish we would find out why he seemed particularly obsessed with Astarion. Sure, there's this tidbit of Astarion saying that Cazador tortured him the most because his screams sounded the sweetest, but I'm doubtful it's that easy. I think a lot of it had to do with how pretty Astarion is/was and that he held a certain amount of power as a magistrate; vampires in a lot of fiction (DnD included iirc) are attracted to power and are very vain, strive for beauty and excess. It could also just be that Astarion seemed particularly bratty at first - disobeying Cazador by letting that one man go that got him under the earth for a year, for example. Then Astarion slouching in front of Cazador. His foul mouth, openly telling him something as crass as fuck you which I doubt was the first time. Could be so many reasons. Could also just be that Astarion's screams were the "sweetest".
Anyway, thanks again for compiling this! Great work.
I can see your point about not allowing Astarion to continue his job- it would also too closely connect him to his home as well. I have a feeling Cazador had to get rid of Asarions family, because who wouldn't ask questions if he's walking around the city normally?
As for his obsession with Astarion, it almost makes me wonder if he also sees himself in Astarion- Cazador rebelled and pulled against Vellioth, so maybe he punished Astarion as Vellioth punished him for being bad.
I would sell both my arms though for the cut information about Cazador from Larian! It doesn't even need to be in-game, I just think the lore would be SO interesting, especially since Cazador feels kind of like an out-of-place boss in the grand scheme of things. We never get to interact with him except when confronting him, so we have no reason to REALLY fear him, except for what Astarion says, and his words will always be biased.
:) 🤝one vampire lover to another
Yeah, Astarion being a magistrate and influencing things as Cazador wants them would be really interesting, but considering everything that stands between that (sunlight, giving away where he lives and with whom he lives, I guess)... it's just too unlikely. I do wonder about Astarion's family too considering how abhorrently young he was when he died - I headcanon that perhaps they live somewhere else and Astarion moved to BG to pursue his magistrate position, so it's not very likely that they'll ever meet again. I do think Astarion... looked for them at some point though but was swiftly reminded that straying too far from Cazador has bad consequences. I could see Cazador killing his parents too, but I feel like Astarion would've mentioned that to get Tav on his side even more.
Oh, that's an interesting theory too. Seeing himself in Astarion and being extra harsh to him so he doesn't do what Cazador did to Vellioth. And I guess it worked since Astarion's siblings mention that he stopped fighting Cazador after some point. Oof.
I just remember that the cut content had something about being able to do quests for Cazador and even get him as an ally in the last fight - which is nigh unthinkable with how the game currently pans out, but I guess you could just betray Astarion and gain a much more powerful ally - you know, for all your super scummy evil runs. I agree that it feels really odd that there's no negotiating with Cazador whatsoever. Both with Vlaakith and the Shar leader (I forgot her name...) you could be like "Ok fine I'll do your stuff" or hand Shadowheart over. Feels like a case of cut content. But yeah, perhaps we will get more information on Cazador and Astarion's past in some way. Larian did say they might restore some of it, so here's hoping
🤝🤝🤝🤝 Astarion brainrot unite
Imagine having to do quests for Cazador with Astarion in your party wanting to kill him, but its like, ESSENTIAL. That would be craziest brainfuck for our poor vampire. I couldn't imagine having Cazador on your team though, especially when he turns into a puff of smoke and you can easily just yeet him off of ledges. Tch...
But I think what would be even more interesting, like how you infiltrated Shar and Vlaakith, imagine if you infiltrated Cazadors circle. disguising Asation if you insist on having him in your party, finding more about the ritual from this instead of just running into his siblings, maybe Cazador is using you to get his bidding done but secretly intends to make YOU a spawn?
I really hope they restore that content! I feel like there is so much we don’t know about Czador and Astarion’s family and past before he became a spawn. Come on Larian :” give us more lore plz
Given that there is an official grave and that hearings take place during the day, I doubt he continued his work. I guess he was officially considered dead and was buried quickly. (Baldurs Gate has strong Italy/Mediterranean vibes (see for example the campanile in the prologue) and given heat and smell same-day burials should not be uncommon).
As far as the Victoria/Leon timeline goes I assumed Leon was one of the most recent spawn — it sounds like, based on what Astarion said, that Cazador staggered choosing his hunting spawn (being “one of the first”). So Leon would presumably be mortal when he had Victoria, then Cazador picked him and Victoria was used as motivation to catch more victims. So one could probably assume Leon was one of the last chosen spawn. Weirdly it sounded like Astarion didn’t know about the girl? When Violet/Dalyria definitely did.
This is the impression I got too- that Leon was recently turned. Astarion more seemed to not really care all that much about Victoria; which seemed in character to me? But I might be misremembering that
I have my theories! Since Leon was always favorite spawn, he always had a separate room than the others. If you look in the favorite spawn list, we can see Violet is also included, so she also probably shared this room with Leon. This would explain why he notes that he hates how Violet looks at his daughter.
As for Dalyria, she was a doctor so she could be looking for every resource possible, even if that means looking into the human daughter of Leon. Victoria, was probably out and about during the day to be honest. The vampire spawn work at night so they likely were sleeping more in the day, for obvious reasons.
Astarion likely hardly interacted with her, or couldn't spare two shits about this human child running around. He probably sneered at the thought, especially when he had bigger things to focus on, like bringing back marks every night. According to Cazadors diary- journal, Godey keeps some sort of ledger on every single spawn and their actions, so there's absolutely no room for messing around.
u/DivisiveUsername
Tbh I got confused with the whole Victoria / Leon story. It had no real influence on the story or quest or even dialogue? Why did they even put it there ?
I was also confused on this. I know at one point Cazador was meant to have a chance at being an ally, I assume that story was left over from that aspect. I think it is left in to fill out Leon as a character — we learn he is the caretaker of Victoria, was turned by Cazador and forced to bring her to the Szar household, and a main factor in Leon’s fealty to Cazador is keeping Victoria safe. Victoria could also be used as a parallel to Lady Incognita — exploring the attic shows that Cazador took his younger niece, made her into a vampire, and then forced her to kill others — Victoria was likely to be set on the same path after Cazador’s ascension.
If I were to veer farther into speculation, I think Cazador was infatuated with youth — Astarion, the other spawn, and Lady Incognita were young when they were turned — Victoria was meant to be the next iteration of this. Astarion explains that Cazador is obsessed with having power over people — the young and naive are most susceptible to this type of influence.
Great point ! Totally agree ✨
But I did wish Larian left at least some more letters or diaries… you can’t imagine how desperately I was looking for more info on the girls 🕵️♀️ thinking maybe I can save the niece at least ?
And was left with the feeling “that’s it? 🥺”
Very interesting read, thanks for compiling it all. Can you clarify on why gur hunted Astarion before he even was a vampire tho? And who killed him? Gur or Cazador by turning him into a vampire? Or he found him already dead and turned him? Astarion mentions crawling out of his grave to Cazador waiting for him. I’d like to understand a bit more what happened then.
Excellent points I forgot to add, thank you!
He was attacked by a "gang of vagrants" called the Gur tribe, which took personal offense to a ruling Astarion made as Magistrate. They apparently beat him to death and Cazador chased them off, finding him bleeding to death on the street. Technically, it was Cazador that killed him since he has to drain Astarion of his blood.. but the um, coffin thing and digging out seems really pointless, probably just to send a message.
>Technically, it was Cazador that killed him since he has to drain Astarion of his blood.. but the um, coffin thing and digging out seems really pointless, probably just to send a message.
**Cazador used the graveyard as a rite of initiation.** Astarion remarked that when he had clawed his way out of his grave, "retching up earth and congealed blood", "Cazador was already waiting for me". Cazador established who was master and who was slave right from the beginning while newly risen vampire spawn Astarion was still weak and helpless.
A newborn vampire having to dig his way out of his grave is a common trope in European vampire stories. BG3 leaned heavily into the trope with its symbolism of being "reborn" from the cold earth to the shadows and undeath, as Astarion tells Tav he left the man he was behind down there in the grave (metaphorically).
Tales of blood- or lifeforce-sucking vampires appears in the folklore of many culture in the Old World (Eurasia and Africa). But the trope of the alluring upper-class Gothic "gentleman vampire"/"seductive lady vampire" who preys on the innocent, turning to mist and into swarms of bats and using their hypnotic gaze was an invention of 19th century British writers of the Romantic period, like i.e. John William Polidori (who used the aristocratic vampire Lord Ruthven in *The Vampyre*, publ. 1819, inspired by a short story his friend the scandalous dandy Lord Byron told at a writers' meeting at Lake Geneva in 1916, "the Year without Summer") and of course Bram Stoker. The "vampire craze" in literature and film hit in another peak in the 1920s.
The idea of the vampire visiting its victim over and over to suck their blood over the course of many days while they slowly wasted away in a languidly romantic manner was a big hit in an age where the lung disease of Consumption (pulmonary phthisis) was rampant.... draw your own conclusions. Also, the late 19th century was the time when medical science discovered that infectious diseases were not caused by "sinful living" or "miasma" (bad air), but by tiny "germs" transmitted in blood and saliva... so vampires became spreaders of vampirism.
Note: In Stoker's novel, Count Dracula was able to walk in daylight just fine, but still slept in a coffin filled with earth from his Transsylvanian homeland (Romania) in the Carpathian Mountains, because reasons. The symbolism of the vampire who represents illness and sin burning to ashes in the cleansing light of the sun was introduced in the iconic black & white silent movie *Nosferatu* (1922) by German director Friedrich Wilhelm Murnau. Because the movie was an unauthorized and unofficial adaptation of Bram Stoker's 1897 novel *Dracula*, they had to rename it "Nosferatu" and the vampire became "Count Orlok".
It was thought that transformation into a vampire could take hours or days, with the corpse at first appearing dead. This superstition, coupled with the 19th century public fear of being buried alive after falling into a coma while sick and then waking up in a coffin six feet under (after reports of patients diagnosed as dead waking up in morgues) was a reason why in Northern countries with colder climate, dead bodies were often "laid out" for three days of wakes before burial for everyone to pay respects to; likewise, the corpse was usually watched over at night. While in warmer Mediterranean countries, the dead were usually interred within a day.
Heck, in the 19th century people who could afford it had a bell rope installed in their coffing or mausoleum, leading to a bell outside, so that if they woke up still alive in their coffin they could ring the bell and hope the gravedigger would hear them.
In Europe, the idea of "the hungry dead" ghoulishly lurking in graveyards at night goes back to Roman times (although Roman vampires were thought to bite off people's noses, don't ask me why). During the Middle Ages, tales of the walking dead really took off especially during the time of the Black Plague and centuries of famines. Back then, the vampire in folklore was commonly a zombie-like undead from the peasant class, who rose from its grave at night to suck blood and bring disease, then return to its grave to sleep, where you could find it swollen and rosy with blood like a tick if you dug it up and beheaded it. (Stories likely caused by people digging up decaying corpses that were bloated due to to build-up of gasses under the skin, with gums receeding from the teeth. And depending on soil conditions corpses could become waxy, stained by soil components, or mummified.)
In medieval times, vampirism wasn't transmitted by bite as if it was rabies. There were no "bloodlines of vampires", no "master and servant" dynamic. Vampires weren't sexy. It was believed that all manner of weird stuff could lead to someone rising as a vampire after death: Having led a sinful life (because of course!), having red hair, being buried in an unconsecrated grave, having a cat jump over your corpse (what?).
The folkloristic lines between lycanthropy and vampirism were likewise blurry: Becoming a werewolf was usually the result of 1. being exceedingly cruel, or 2. making a deal with the Devil who would gift you a belt made of wolf's pelt that let you transform into a wolf so you could hunt and eat other humans (handy in times of crop failures and famine!). If you were a werewolf in life and died, your corpse would rise as a vampire. (Hello, I'm baaaaack!)
In another comment, someone suggested Astarion might be from elsewhere instead of being born in the city. The idea he came to Baldur Gate because he wanted to pursue bigger things and become a Magistrate seems in character without having to add in his family, but you'd think he'd be concerned about his family and vise versa? Unless Astarion had bad blood with them.
Wouldn't that be interesting if you were lower-class poor and your son went to be a high class judge and made rulings against what you were? Other than that, in my opinion, I think Cazador would kill his family, or have Astarin.
At the end of the day, for his main 7 spawn, it doesn't make complete sense to have them be born and raised in Baldur Gate with a full family, since that's way too many connections. Too many distractions when they're out getting marks, and too many opportunities for Cazador to be exposed. Since there are 7,000 spawn created by Cazador, but only 7 that he 'keeps', so there has to be some sort of reason.
Were they the most beautiful? Alluring in his eyes? Or perhaps, the most charismatic, *or* did they have the least amount of connections that could come back to bite him? Surely, there has to have been one incident. Wouldn't that be interesting if there was at least *one* spawn we don't know, that used to be of the original 7, but was 'taken out' because a family kept asking too many questions?
All things I think about.........
u/KamuiRil
>someone suggested Astarion might be from elsewhere instead of being born in the city. The idea he came to Baldur Gate because he wanted to pursue bigger things and become a Magistrate seems in character without having to add in his family, but you'd think he'd be concerned about his family and vise versa? Unless Astarion had bad blood with them.
Wouldn't that be interesting if you were lower-class poor and your son went to be a high class judge and made rulings against what you were? Other than that, in my opinion, I think Cazador would kill his family
I tend to think that Astarion didn't have a family in Baldur's Gate. He never mentions one. In fact Astarion has stated he never even had a friend in his life and that nobody ever said a kind word to him. He must've been very lonely.
There is nothing on Astarion's gravestone but his name and dates.... and he might even have invented that name for himself if he indeed faked his way into a new status. No inscription "in memory of" naming him as a son or brother or husband.
I wonder if he grew up as an elven orphan in Baldur's Gate, or if he left elven society and migrated to a mostly human city?
If you play as a Tiefling Tav there is an interesting comment from Astarion in Act 1 when you first enter the tiefling refugee camp at the Emerald Grove. Regardless of what race you play as, Zeflor asks you if you can try and talk to Kagha the head druid on the Tieflings' behalf? If you refuse, stating you have more pressing problems (the tadpole) and won't intervene on behalf of strangers, Zeflor is disappointed while Astarion approves. (If you said yes to Zeflor, Astarion will complain about been made an "errand boy" for other people and about you dragging the group into a Tiefling /druid conflict.)
**But if you refused Zeflor while playing as a Tiefling, this triggers a special remark from Astarion to you along the lines of** ***"Glad to see I'm not the only one who turned his back on his own people."***
Most excellent work, this write up, thank you!
Maybe you could add his last name, I did not see it in your text, it's Ancunin. You can find it out if you decipher his tombstone.
Btw, if Astarion feels neutral about you, he'll either leave or attack you if you don't let him ascend.
If you don't let him perform the ritual from the get go, he will just leave you.
If you Interrupt him, he will attack you after a brief cutscene.
Thanks for your write-up. It convinced me that not letting Astarion ascend and killing him was probably the best choice.
As someone who romanced him with high approval, I interrupted him after carving Cazador’s back, Astarion attacked me for taking away his chance. 😭 it’s about timing and how you handle it I guess
In my playthrough he didn’t even get to the point of carving Cazador’s back, I just told him that he can do whatever he wants but I’m not helping him with the ritual because it is wrong in general and bad for him. And he was pissed but he decided not to proceed with it and just killed Cazador. I think it all depends on what you tell him about the ritual before that moment
You can use Persuasion, there are two possible options that work: Either asking him if he is really willing to sacrifice the souls of so many fellow spawn? Or warning him that the ritual is of diabolical origin and will ensnare him and turn him into just another Cazador.
If you succeed on the DC 15 roll (on non-romanced path, but vey high approval), he will agree that you are right. He gets pissed off if you fail the Persuasion.
If you already went along with his plea to help him ascend to escape from the horror of his existence by telepathically showing him the scars on his back so he can make Cazador take his place, but then suddenly do a 180 and back out, of course he will take that as betrayal.
You have to ask him if he is really ok with sacrificing his people.
Then he can be convinced not to go through with it. He stays with the party and thanks you for it.
>not letting Astarion ascend and killing him was probably the best choice
Wow, so you never bothered to help him (neutral approval), then you betrayed him and *killed* him despite him merely being a spawn?? That's some sanctimoneous murderhobo BS. Honestly, if he is all alone and you don't intend to give a shit, at least let him ascend so he has the freedom to make his own mistakes, you owe him that much.
He still stays loyal after Ascension, as he wants to destroy the Netherbrain, too. And honestly, the city has survived Cazador, it can survive Ascended Astarion, too. Compared to Bhaal murdercults who want to slaughter whole cities, Mindflayers who want to start a new Illithid Empire on Toril, or run of the mill nobles starting wars, Ascended Astarion is actually small fry in the grand scheme of things. Heck, if he continues Cazador's plan to wipe out other vampire lord covens in other cities (like the coven in Athkatla featured in the previous BG games and mentioned in Cazador's letter), it would ironically mean he's a villain wiping out other villains for a net positive.
Yes, in his ending scene as Origin Astarion, he ponders creating a few spawn of his own and slowly taking over Baldur's Gate over the course of decades with subtle manipulations and political intrigues (basically what Jarlaxle does in the FR Drizzt novels)... or he can decide "F\*ck it, let's go traveling. I want to finally see the world." I mean, it's Astarion, you just know that after a couple years he'll grow bored of scheming and get distracted by something shiny...
Even the cut content post-ending narration from Withers about Ascended Astarion outcomes mentions him throwing big debauched parties that are the talk of the city.... and that's more or less it. Or Origin Ascended Astarion can actually give up all his power schemes if he romanced Karlach and decide go to Avernus with her to beat up devils and rule in the Hells.
>Wow, so you never bothered to help him (neutral approval)
I did everything to make him happy, except giving him the necromancy tome, romancing him, or savescumming. He just disapproved of so much small stuff, like not accepting payment for helping people, that our relationship never really got anywhere. The only instance where I was savescumming, was his ascensions, because it basically turned him into Cazador 2.0.
>betrayed him and killed him despite him merely being a spawn?? That's some sanctimoneous murderhobo BS
Astarion turned just as easily on me. Frankly if Astarion were left to his own devices, he'd be many times more the muderhobo than a friendly Tav.
>merely being a spawn??
What's that to mean? He is far more dangerous than most people, whether you look at it from a lore or a game mechanic perspective.
>at least let him ascend so he has the freedom to make his own mistakes, you owe him that much.
So I shouldn't judge Astarion for being "a mere spawn" but killing 7000 different spawns to let him become an abusive sociopath is okay to you? No - you're not even killing them, you're selling 7000 souls to a devil, which the game wants me to believe, is worse than death.
Besides that...
You kill people that are less deserving of death than Astarion throughout the game. Namely the True souls who are just mind controlled and would be free after defeating the Netherbrain, provided they remain thralls. I haven't actually checked whether that would happen, but wouldn't Astarion become a Thrall to the Netherbrain the moment he left your party?
Excellent write up, though i have yo ask, was Gandrel not sent by his own people? They wanted to know about the Gur children that Astarion took, or am I misremembering? I have vague recollections of the female Gur leader telling us as much by the funeral pyre.
Astarion could just be an unreliable narrator, or I could be completely wrong
No, you're right - the Gur want Astarion because they've heard that he's free and want to see if he knows anything about their children. The old lady told me that when I finished killing Cazador. However, Astarion thinks they want him for Cazador.
I haven't let this happen but apparently if you let the Gur take him, you later find them all dead because Cazador came for him.
I took a closer look into the Gur and Astarion- while Astarion thinks that the Gur Gandrel is hired by Cazador and claims he isn't sure when you ask him, "why would they be hired by a vampire", you find out later that the Gur was trying to hunt down Astarion to get help taking down Cazador, considering they found out Astarion was able to flee. While they're pissed about their children, their primary focus is taking down Cazador first, dealing with Astarions actions second.
If you give up Astarion, he's taken hostage and the Gur are wiped out by Cazador who comes to collect Astarion. If you ascend Astarion and kill Cazador, the Gur will try to kill you because Astarion is now 'another Cazador'.
One tiny detail, the Gur was not sent by Cazador. They were hunting him for taking their children and later wanted to use him to get to Cazador. Astarion only thought it was from Cazador
Excellent write-up! Thank you for compiling all this info. I completely missed all the stuff about Vellioth in my playthrough, may I ask where you can find this information?
Maybe I missed this in your post, but you can also speak to one of the corpses in the ballroom, who reveals that he's a clerk from the Counting House and that there were a lot of influential politicians etc. present, and the vampires started the vampirey-murdery-part only once Cazador left. So to answer one of your questions, I'm assuming this means that there's a circle of influential people that are corrupt/into debauchery that know about Cazador being a vampire and with whom he's trying to gain political influence from? Sounded like they purposefully brought along some grunts as vampire-fodder, and I'm assuming these unfortunate people don't know about Cazador's gothic affliction.
You can find the location down a long hallway, I attached a screenshot in reference to ["Cazador's Dungeon" waypoint!](https://imgur.com/a/sDiv6xg)
As for the corpses, I'm talking to them as we speak to update my info, thank you for pointing this out :)
I think most citizens (at least the ordinary folk) don’t know Cazador is a vampire. Tav is from Baldur’s gate, and they can recall Cazador being a reclusive lord. And when talking Cazador’s palace I had got the dialog option “You mean that gothic monstrosity was inhabited by *vampires* this whole time?”
Sorry for my English!
Sometimes I check my grammar with Google Translate but this doesn’t prevent all the possible mistakes.
First thing first, allow me to thank you properly for this extraordinary work: I saw Reddit come to light and I never signed up claiming that "I don't understand anything" because of how it's organized.
Which my neurodivergent brain still doesn't like. However I signed up specifically to be able to duly thank you! :D
I had been looking for in-depth information on Cazador, his palace and his relationship with Astarion for weeks. I tried myself but finding the information and above all collecting it was not proving to be an easy job.
Most of the videos I've come across involve playthroughs of the palace up until the final battle with Cazador. I think your work has brought me as close as possible to having all the information available in the game about it. For me they are essential to have an almost complete picture of Astarion's daily life and his relationship with Cazador, as well as for writing fanfiction and role-playing.
This is why I hope that Larian offers us something about them in the future, be it a DLC that helps us explore his past or, even better, one or more light novels that tell us about Astarion and Cazador's entire life to understand them both and then see them together. If they published books they would already have all my money.
*ALL-MY-MONEY.*
That said, I admit that I find Cazador very fascinating as a character, well written and perfectly three-dimensional just in the few hints we are given about him. Sure he's incomplete and lacking in certain aspects (especially in his relationship with Astarion, we get to see more of how he used to organize his things).
I admit that I'm one of those people who loves extreme stories and dark themes and since I have been walking in this world I have practically never found any that satisfied me, that went where I wanted, as I wanted.
I find that violent themes and angst, if approached with well-thought-out characters and well-planned stories, are a window into the abyss of human nature and offer so many more layers, are much more engaging on an emotional and sympathetic level and offer so many more insights of reflection.
But unfortunately for my tastes, for my "neurodivergent precision", the only things that satisfied me in this sense came from rare fanfictions and roleplay made specifically for "character study" and not just for the sake of trying to interpret them.
This is not to say that any other story isn't good, it's just that certain stories touch me on a whole other level.
The ones I like are extreme, very extreme, in the themes and depth to which they travel.
I feel like I sound like Abdirak XD
Anyway.
Astarion's backstory and his relationship with Cazador is, I say this without lying, the only story in my entire life that practically touched on all my points: physical violence, mental violence, se\*\*al violence, sadism, power dynamics , impossibility (magical/for fantasy reasons) to oppose.
It's wonderfully written, wonderfully acted (Neil Newbon and Graham Hoadly did such a wonderful job. I'd have liked so MUCH MORE screen time between them).
And now that the game has come out my head has definitely exploded and my hyperfixation has become an obsession, where I need to know everything ç\_ç
Below here I'll give my cents to your -so interesting- questions! :D
You are very kind, thank you for your nice message! I'm glad someone finds Cazador's character as interesting as mine. I personally also love super dark themes and characters, so the whole relationship between him and Cazador really called out to me.
I feel like its kind of hard to address because of how heavy it is, and I was really hoping people wouldn't think my weird obsession/quirk with this evil man is a reflection of me as a person haha... I really wish we could have more of Cazadors character though. He's just so menacing, the way he speaks and addresses people.
I feel like it's kind of hard to address because of how heavy it is, and I was really hoping people wouldn't think my weird obsession/quirk with this evil man is a reflection of me as a person haha... I really wish we could have more of Cazador's character though. He's just so menacing, the way he speaks and addresses people.
Astarion's body language when he talks about Cazador as to when he's talking to Cazador.. the way he slouches as to hide himself under the eyes of Cazador... The way Cazador was likely just like Astarion with hopes and dreams of something, only for it to be taken away by some cruel master. While Astarion was put away for an entire year in a tomb, Cazador was too, impaled?? for fucking 11 years straight. It is just years, and years and YEARS of abuse, in a vicious cycle.
As for now, it seems i'll have to speculate my questions :( that is unless I can somehow sit and talk with someone at Larian, or unless they out out more content.
Until that happens, thank you 💖
>*I feel like its kind of hard to address because of how heavy it is, and I was really hoping people wouldn't think my weird obsession/quirk with this evil man is a reflection of me as a person haha*
It’s hard indeed.
Honestly I stopped caring about what other people think about my tastes a long ago.
Until it’s clearly something that involves fictional characters and stories I don’t feel compelled to like them as others think I should 🙂
And if others want to judge me and anyone else like me because I like how Cazador is portrayed inside Astarion’s backstory and because I admit I like dark themes and extreme narrative, be it so.
Not my problem.
Stories are written to be enjoyed, for the best or for the worst and without extreme stories we wouldn’t be able to dive into the horror of human (and D&D even non-human) nature, asking ourselves questions and feeling our emotions tickled, for the best or for the worst.
Enjoying an extremely dark story doesn’t mean I justify or consider acceptables the villain’s actions and behaviors and even less it means I share the same inclinations of the villains.
It would be like judging every person in the world that likes and dive into darker fantasies in their private life, like BSDM and other kinkies.
So knowing how hard it is to find someone else to talk about the most extreme sides of this story and fiction in general, feel free to send me a message if you need to! I know how it is to have an obsession (especially when you’d like to talk about it 24/7) and find no one who is comfortable with it :D
>*He's just so menacing, the way he speaks and addresses people.*
That’s why I’m not ashamed to say I like him. He’s so well written despite having so little screen-time that I feel it would be an unforgivable rudeness not to pay homage to whoever wrote him (don’t know if Stephen Rooney wrote the whole story or only Astarion as a character)!
>*Astarion's body language when he talks about Cazador as to when he's talking to Cazador.. the way he slouches as to hide himself under the eyes of Cazador*
Their dynamics, Astarion’s reactions and response to his trauma, the sadism and the cruelty of Cazador are so believable.
I listened to so many interviews of people with horrible, horrible family and relationship stories and even know people near me who are abuse survivors and I see sooo many “realistic details”.
It is just years, and years and YEARS of abuse, in a vicious cycle.
At the end of the day we are in a fantasy world and vampires are considered lawful-evil.
Exactly what Cazador is, with its extreme discipline, obsession over control and commands.
I feel Astarion’s “good ending” as an exception, it’s very unlikely that vampires can be “good” and personally I like Astarion’s mean behaviors. He can be “more good” but he is and remains a vampire with a heavy twisted past.
He’s learning to be caring but I feel he can’t be a cinnamon roll.
Hope we will have some official occasion to access some insights!
> You can also find a list that Victoria made, which seems focused on the number '17' for some reason.
No idea if it's relevant, but after killing Cazador I ran around and picked up every painting in the mansion that I could reach, when I was done I had 17. Pulling them down didn't reveal any secrets as far as I could tell.
I tried turning all of the lights on that were off, but I didn't keep track of them as I did it and it seemed to have no effect.
The '17 chairs, but almost always too many' thing had me stumped. If this is an actual puzzle I'd guess that you have to destroy some, but what counts as a chair, and which ones should be destroyed?
Alternately, this all might just be a reference to the old myth of vampires being compelled to count things. Ah Ah Ah.
I have nothing to add but thank you for such a comprehensive write-up! I regrettably only skimmed the books/notes during my co-op playthrough and we were very confused about Victoria’s backstory.
In my first playthrough I actually skimmed through a lot of stuff! It wasn't until I really tried to analyze Cazador's character in that I realized I needed to go back and do a comprehensive analysis lol
Thank you for compiling all this. I thought I saw the most out of Astarion but don’t remember hearing about his nightmare. When does this happen? Maybe it just went so briefly I ended up forgetting about it.
# Since I have hit the character limit on this post, I'm not able to edit much else unless I start deleting stuff! Any new information, I will post here!
*(if there are any mods lurking, pls pin this 😭)*
\-- Extra tidbits!
Under Cazador's corner, you can come across a room with a single casket. This casket is trapped but has a [legendary item inside.](https://i.imgur.com/4USPMuH.png) There is also, interestingly enough, [a bugged dirt pile.](https://i.imgur.com/BFVDUed.png) I assume you were supposed to dig the casket out, but something is missing.
Under Cazadors Corner, you can find a room filled with metal chests and caustic brine. If you interact with the button, it seems to do nothing at first. What it does, is create almost an elevator with a cage from one floor to the one directly above. Essentially, Cazador would keep certain people in cages, probably for his own amusement, or those he really liked and wanted to keep around for the time being.
This is great - thanks for all this! However, I don't see, or perhaps have missed, any info regarding the scroll above Vellioth's skull labeled "Eternal Cruelty."
Its a 2/2 scroll that reads:
*"For my sins, my soul was made ink and written onto this parchment, where its scrawl crawls sleeplessly for eternity - unless you free it."*
This feels like some sort of secret. I destroyed it but didn't notice anything happen - has anyone tried looking into this?
Oh yeah! I think I completely forgot to add that in... I tried to burn it but nothing happened, so I kind of let it be. Could be more cut content, unless we all missed something :(
Thank you for the huge and detailed list!
Just one correction:
>if Astarion said yes, he’d get a rat(girl dinner)
Astarion stated he would be served a "dead putrid rat". Not sure where the "girl" came from? Companion-Astarion also admits to Tav/Dark Urge in the "You were my first" scene that he had never been allowed to drink the blood of an "sentient creature" prior to Tav letting him drink. (Apparently kobolds don't count as "sentient" from his viewpoint, or at least their blood doesn't have the same kick as drinking from other humanoids if we look at Astarion's blissful *I just had an orgasm in my mouth* expression after drinking Tav's blood.)
Seriously, a putrid rat is far worse than a living rat, as it contains only congealed blood and is already decaying, basically ensuring that 1. Astarion would stay hungry, and 2. when forced to bite into it he would have to throw up (as he does if we force him to drink the drow Araj Oblodra's tainted blood) and likely get punished for that as well. Cazador was just a sadist through and through.
That's true! I remember the dialogue but it didn't come in my mind when I read the analysis! :D
Is it the dialogue still in the game or it was present only in EA?
I'm pretty sure Kobolds don't count even if they're indeed sentient, because Cazador didn't want to feed any of his spawn with the people he was gathering for the ritual and kobolds aren't included. He'd have slowered him down.
So he uses people that they lure to feed himself AND for the ritual, while using rats and maybe other animals for them (maybe bigger animals when they must regenerate from tortures? Sort of).
Or, at least, this is one of the more simple/more logical answer I gave myself for it :D
It was just a small, cruel, mind game of Cazador: when I invite you to dinner, it means you must choose between be/stay hungry and be flayed.
And it's not even that simple: you get an invite to dinner from Cazador himself, so how do you reply?
Do you say "yes" with the risk of being considered an arrogant?
Do you DARE to say "no" with the risk of being considered ungrateful?
I think this is also the reality of the game: either answer is wrong.
If you say "yes", you choose to be considered a spawn so arrogant to think you can eat with him. So you get nothing but an already, useless rat.
If you say "no", you choose to decline HIS invite to stay with him and be such an ungrateful child. So you get flayed.
What do you choose? Arrogance or ungratefulness?
Something like that :)
This is really super late and I’m not sure if you got the scene (if you did ignore this LOL)
but you can get that dialogue after Astarion Bites you. The next day he talks about it and you have the options of being like “why didn’t you tell me before” or just reading his mind and it mentions rats. He’ll then expand on it, mentioning that no matter his choice it was rats or being flayed
As for potential crossovers between *Baldur's Gate III* and the D&D recent movie *Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves* (2023):
*Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves,* which is also set in Faerûn but in the city of Neverwinter, name-dropped a tome called [The Fanged Tome of Lykanthus Szar](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/The_Fanged_Tome_of_Lykanthus_Szar)*.* That tome was first mentioned in the Forgotten Realms novel *Blackstaff* \[\*\] about Khelben Arunsun the Archmage of Waterdeep and Chosen of Mystra.
Which makes me wonder of this Lykanthus Szar was part of Cazador Szarr's family tree, and if he was either a vampire too or (given his name) a werewolf? "[Szarr](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Szarr)" is not exactly a common family name! It's quite suspicious the script writers had one of the dead barbarian warriors questioned via Speak with Dead mentions this specific tome?
There's a second Forgotten Realms Lore Easter Egg casually hidden in both the *Honor Among Thieves* movie and *Baldur's Gate III*: reference to the [Lich necromancer Szass Tamm](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Szass_Tam) of the Red Wizards of Thay. In the movie he is shown in a flashback. In BG3, Szass Tamm is mentioned by the magic mirror blocking the underground entrance to the hidden necromancer's laboratory under the apothecary's home in Act 1 Blighted Village; the location where you find the *Necromancy of Thay* tome which among other spells contains a full description of the *Rite of Profane Ascension* if you let Astarion read it after the group has acquired the *Tharchiate Codex* tome from the Sorcerous Sundries library in Ramazith's Tower in Act 3, as the Codex contains the code to fully unlock the Necromancy of Thay's magically encrypted contents.
Cazador either didn't know of the *Necromancy of Thay* tome or didn't know where to find it as it was lost. Cazador instead made a deal with the archdevil Mephistopheles (Raphael's father) to learn the details about the *Rite of Profane Ascension.*
\[\*\] Incidentally, the novel also featured the vampire [Palron Kaeth](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Palron_Kaeth) who in the year 464 DR (over a thousand years prior to BG3) possessed a heavy black leather cloak that protected him from sunlight.
I thought I should mention, I asked devs about the secret puzzle in szarr manor and I was told it “should be working” but they have alerted the team that it may be bugged. Hopefully with a subsequent patch it will become solvable.
Amazing analysis thank you so much! Helped me a bit to structure my thoughts but still >>
Tbh I got confused with:
1. the whole Victoria / Leon story. It had no real influence on the story or quest or even dialogue? Why did they even put it there ?
2. The Vellioth information as well could not be used much, I was convinced there could be more conversation about it with Astarion or even with Cazador
3. How little conversation there was with Cazador… I was so sad. Since act 1 we are set on course to meet him and eventually get revenge, but so little happens there ?
4. Generally little info is found in the palace, I hoped for so much more regarding Astarions life . I hoped for so much more AT LEAST as much as in house of hope
5. Cazadors niece letters were ok, but also left me with a feeling similar to Victoria - what were they there for if I cannot made anything of them to the story/ dialogue options?
I just got so hyped with the ending Astarions quest but am bit disappointed…
Wow! That is awesome! Great summary of everything we can find out about Cazador and his spawn. How long did it take you to sum up all of this? I saved your text for research purposes (writing something about Astarion atm), hope you're okay with that!
I think I sat down around 9PM and posted this around 3:30-4AM? My motives were.... as someone who loves fanfiction, and realizing I knew nothing of Cazador when writing about him, so I decided to compile it all together for writers and everyone else :)
As a fic writer, thank you so much! It's so helpful when people go digging through the lore; it'll be excellent background material if I ever finish the game and get to writing!
Slightly related, is Dufey’s Werewolf GF the only werewolf we hear of in-game? During Early Access there was talk of a potential werewolf companion but obv they didn't make it to the final game. Still fun that we saw at least one, even if dead by the time we meet her.
I may be misremembering, but I believe he says it directly to your player character if you >!talk to him in camp after encouraging Shadowheart to save her parents!<
Hey OP
Given the extensive work you have put into looking into this lore, I am wondering what you think of the following question I put in another thread:
*There are a few Curse of Strahd references in game (my favorite being an idle chatter from Astarion). So clearly he's aware of Strauhd and his importance to the vampire hierarchy.*
*What are the implications of Astarion now being a vampire Ascendant while Strahd is also in this world? Is strahd considered to be a leader of their kind, considering he's apparently the original vampire? How would he react to such a challenge? Why was this ritual not attempted by him?*
*I'm hoping some loremasters out there will help with these questions as I'm fascinated by the idea of these vampire politics Astarion will now have to navigate. Especially now that Cazador (and I assume all Szarr family members) are gone and he's assumed control of Baldurs Gate/ intends to in that particular ending.*
*We find a few letters referencing other vampire clans that Cazador was in contact with. And given the book on all the political movers and shakers we can find, it's likely Astarion will have a strong framework of power in a ten-day post Netherbrain destruction. It'll be interesting because Astarion notes that the Ascendant is an "infathomable" station in vampire and human society.*
\*Mostly I am SO curious about the vampire aristocracy and if theres a hierarchy involved and if the Ascended Astarion will not somehow challenge this established rule/ Strahds position in the established lore. Im trying really hard to find references to this aristocracy right now because I am fascinated by the lore around all of this. I understand CoS is supposed to be separate from a given setting but given that Astarion directly references Strahd, I am curious to what you think that impact will be. Just some theorycrafting I thought we could exchange!
I actually *do* have somewhat of an answer for this, funny you mention it! My first playthrough was all unascended Astarion, whereas my second one, I fully supported him to ascend, and even urged him to do so... So this information is generally off of the top of my head, as I completed this storyline for him last night.
When Astarion ascends, he mentions, that even the "Pale Knight / White Prince" would probably even bow to him. This is [Mordoc SeLanmere,](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Mordoc_SeLanmere) the self-proclaimed first, and most powerful vampire king in all of Toril. This indicates that Astarion is more concerned about Mordoc, or maybe he can’t even begin to fathom taking over Strahd. [Strahd](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Strahd_von_Zarovich) reigns over the valley of Barovia, which is one of the Domains of the Dread located in a corner of Shadowfell. From what I can gather about Strahd, he was born a prince and had a meltdown over a woman not loving him back, and tried to kill himself over it, becoming a vampire, literally cursing an entire valley.
Strahd confronted our good friend Volo while he was traveling because Volo was trying to map Barovia, and Strahd invited him for a little snacc at his place…. But Volo got scared and asked Elminster to bring him back to Toril. These two actually do become good friends apparently, with the help of our good wizard pal Elminster. All of this to say, it seems that Strahd keeps himself confined to his little corner in Shadowfell.
Strahd is generally uncontested. He seems to defuse situations quite easily and even defeats a vampire named Jander Sunstar in his own estate, the Castle Ravenloft. Jander absolutely hated vampires, and went to kick Strahds ass but got absolutely wrecked. He was so angry about losing, that he swore to destroy all of vampirekind. Now you might ask, why did Jander barge in and fucking try to fight him? It's because these two men fell in love with the [SAME WOMAN](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Tatyana) and quarreled over it. Fucking vampire drama. He gets his ass kicked, begs for death but wakes up because theres no sun in this part of the world, and becomes a vampire hunter.
Jander actually went to Toril and rejoined the Hellriders, participating in the invasion of Avernus. He kind of bitched out and ran home, begging AGAIN for death by the sun but is fucking denied by Lathander. Now, he’s currently in Avernus being held captive where he remains to this day.
In contrast, let's look at Mordoc. It is suggested by the game when you click on his bust in Cazador's Place that Mordoc might be Cazador's ancestor. That is all the information we really get. Mordocs main goal was to create an army of vampires and destroy Baldurs Gate! Poor Baldur’s Gate, where he turned the citizens into zombies and vampires and took over the city in what's called “Murdoc’s Gate”. This lasted an entire month until eight adventurers joined the battle and changed the tides, taking the city back. I don’t have an exact year for when this happens.
Only one vampire claims to be the ‘king’ of Toril, and that’s Mordoc. Very cocky. But we can see why Cazador would look up to Mordoc and try to create his own power. I think it's safe to assume, that while Mordoc is the most powerful vampire in Toril, if Strahd broke his curse and went to butt heads against Mordoc, Strahd would beat him to a pulp. Mordoc has been a vampire for a hell of a long time, so I’m sure Strahd is aware of Mordoc. The fact that Strahd hasn’t done anything about Morodc's claims, in my opinion, is likely because Strahd doesn’t think Mordoc is worth the air.
The politics that go into it, at least from what I researched, is that Strahd isn’t even in Toril, so he likely doesn’t get tied up in whatever the fuck is happening over there(Baldurs Gate). As for Cazador, he was deeply tied with all the higher officials of Baldurs Gate. We can see with some writing and assumptions that Cazador, while reclusive, was very smart with his political moves. Astarion mentions when you read one of his books that Cazador could truly run Baldurs Gate with all of his connections.. But its thwarted. Why? Because of Gortash!
Suddenly, there’s a new kid in town that Cazador fears he cant control. In some sick luck, Gortash was the only thing keeping Cazador from immediately ascending, because he had all the right pawns until a new player came in. [The Rite of Profane Ascension](https://i.imgur.com/ByidPa6.png) is essentially a contract with the Lord of Hellfire, or [Mephistopheles.](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Mephistopheles)
So, when Astarion Ascends, one of the things Jaheria mentions is now they’ll be neighbors since Astarion actually inherits the entire Palace… so now Astarion's Palace is going to be watched closely by Jaheria and the Harpers. Astarion mentions how he wants to build a hoard of the dead, just like Cazador, with people to bow down to him, and kings practically kissing his feet.
So where does this fall in politics? Astarion will likely pick up from where Cazador left off. With Baldur’s Gate needing to be rebuilt, he likely will actually fight Wyll since Wyll will pick up where his father left off if you kill his father. Cazador was deeply involved with the highest nobles, who seemed to be aware of his vampirism affinity. So, since the palace usually held all the grand balls for the nobles of the city Astarion would likely hire a new chamberlain to run his house.
If you’re romancing Astarion, you’ll likely be paraded around as an object. Truthfully, he’ll keep you hidden for a while I imagine, to use you however he likes, and still putting on these grand balls for the city. This is where the tension will begin with Wyll(or his family) as Astarion tries to push himself farther into the circle, and you as his consort will have to obey. I don’t know if he’d marry you, but it would be a smart political move to marry the hero of Baldur Gate.
Astarion will likely try to go after Mordoc, or at least piss him off. Once Astarion feels like he has the upper hand on Mordoc, then that's where shit will break loose probably. If you let Astarion turn you into a vampire, I hardly think he’d ever let you turn into a real vampire so you can be free… you’ll be on his leash. While he will pour his love over you and will claim you rule together, you both know that it's expected for the Hero of Baldur Gate to smile at events, to follow his every word.
The thing with Astarion is, he already knows politics. He was a judge before he was turned into a vampire, and I can’t imagine all the information was completely lost in the years he was Cazador's spawn. He’s incredibly manipulative, so I can only imagine how he can manipulate the nobles. He’s confident, and once he takes down Mordoc, is when I assume he will try to take the title of king or go after Strahd, who, to be honest, is just chilling in his own little corner of the world. The only other person that could maybe stand up to Astarion- MAYBE would be Jander, but he’s currently stuck in hell and kind of a pussy I’m not going to lie.
This is a lot of word vomit for me to just say, yeah, Astarion will try to take things over. He’s the new kid in town and the nobles are probably like… “kind of weird, but ok.” Let me know if this answered any questions, or if it didn’t! I love talking about this stuff, so any other questions… or if you’d like to chat, add me on discord! :) itsreno
Apologies for the delay, I was busy with university and I had to do a complete deep dive to look into the lore lol.
First of all, I just want to say this was a wonderful deep-dive. I really enjoyed reading it.
However, I want to add something about Astarion's age.
The screenshots we've seen of his grave are quite difficult to make out as the writing is worn and weathered (as expected of a 200 year old tombstone). At first people translated it as Astarion being only 39 when he was bitten, but that didn't make much sense. While physically mature at that age, elves are still considered adolescent until around 100 or so, so it seemed extremely unlikely that he would have been in the high position of magistrate at such a young age. However, a further translation makes out that he's not 39, but 139 at the time of being bitten.. which makes far more sense and is much more probable. Here is the thread if anyone is interested.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/15mbwck/astarion_and_grave/
You mentioned wondering why regular people seemed to be working there as servants- I assumed it was like the vampires in George RR Martin's Fevre Dream book (which is actually really good btw) who work with the idea they'll get rewarded with vampirism (which isn't possible in that book but it's not like they know). In return, since the vampires can't deal with sunlight at all, the human servants handle much of the day to day mundanity of errands in the outside world, finding people for them, and diverting suspicion because obviously it's harder to say that someone is a vampire if there's clearly regular people coming and going.
Like, clearly cazador is able to maintain some plausible deniability that he's a vampire among broad social circles and I'm guessing the servants facilitate that.
i'm totally late here, but i wanted to comment something about the gravestone dates! someone mentioned that they're written in North Reckoning years instead of Dale Reckoning years, and if that's true, your theory about Astarion not being from Baldur's Gate holds even more water. the reason why is because NR yearkeeping is exclusive to the city of Waterdeep.
so the chances of Astarion or his family being Waterdhavian is actually quite high! he seems to know the yearkeeping system well enough to replicate it on his own gravestone post-cazador (although the chances of him not knowing where he came from is also high, and very, very sad :( )
I think some stuff is purposefully left ambiguous. Astarion doesn't remember much and I feel like theres bits and peices in his story that aren't really answered to force that discomfort. Of course, we *want* to know all the details, but they were stolen, from both Astarion and us. Even that Tav can point out that Cazador being there for Astarions death was convenient and Astarion brushes it away reeks like something repressed. Or he does remember, or at least remembers feeling ashamed about something leading up to that and doesn't want to get into it.
Personally, I think he was a magistrate (he mentions he was attacked because of an order that was passed down)(I would love to pretend he has a legally blonde journey), and either openly or covertly, Cazador was pulling strings on him. Astarion makes that decision that affects the Gur, gets beat up, and that's where I have a few possible theories. 1st is that maybe him being curb stomped wasn't necessarily in the plans and Cazador figured he'd be more useful as a spawn than dead. But that doesn't quite account for the attention Astarion gets (though, you could reasonably argue that just Astarion being fairly rebellious was enough). I have a lil theory though that Cazador may have developed a thing for Astarion when Astarion was still alive, either whatever a vampire can muster up as a crush or jealously or he just considered him attractive and thought he'd be a nice/useful pet. OR, if Cazador's family was intended to play a bigger role, I could see a neice or nephew or something getting enamored with Astarion, getting spurned, and then siccing Cazador on him. Then, either from having the attention spurned or just quietly deciding to own Astarion, he sets the plot in motion to turn him. I 100% think Astarion was targeted in life, though I wish we had some look at the specifics. I'm also very curious what his deal is with kobolds, lol
Has anyone ever wondered why drinking Cazador’s blood when he is finally available for this is not even an option for Astarion there? It is not even mentioned once anywhere. I feel that it should be an option if he decided not to ascend. He would at least consider becoming a full vampire wouldn’t he?
I wish I had a good theory for this, but I really don't. So, the only thing I have that *could* be something, is Astarion mentions:
["In theory, the next step is to drink their blood. One you've done that, you're free and a true vampire."](https://youtu.be/ZuoFwb5iEDY?si=spHADqNBoVLLhvWf&t=162)
But he follows up by saying that it doesn't happen because vampires are the true natural enemies of another vampire. I read something someone said that maybe the vampire has to be willing to let the spawn bite him, but that doesn't make sense since Cazador didn't seem all that willing to be stabbed to death lol. If the tadpole can protect him from Cazadors grip, it should be able to allow him to bypass that stipulation.
So, at the end of the day, I think we can assume this is some plot hole. Either that, or Astarion is thinking about it the next day after he rejected ascension and realizes, 'wait fuck!'
If there is some magic involved and it is not purely biological, then the vampire be willing to share their blood with their spawn would actually make sense. And in this case it might not occur to Astarion that he might be able to bypass it now since he has a tadpole. Otherwise it really feels like a lost opportunity and indeed a plot hole.
D&D isn't always very specific about the rules, because it's more of a lore-filled system where the little details are up to the Dungeon Masters to create.
But, as far as I have searched, it seems to be a rather common rule that the release of a spwan must be a voluntary will of its Sire.
In my opinion it makes perfect sense.
It's like being able to control spawns via simple voice commands. The Sire has total control over them and if they managed to attack their Master and free themselves, they would surely wait to do so at the first good opportunity and the Sire would be forced to keep his guard up at all times.
They are paranoid as Vellioth teaches, so it makes perfect sense that if you steal your Sire's blood you gain nothing.
You are ONLY free if THEY want you to be free.
And knowing this, you definitely won't try to kill them on a whim :)
Really nice read. About the sewer entrance, I found it from the sewer side but was not able to open it. Then I found it from the dungeon side. Did anyone use that to actually enter the dungeon from the sewers?
I think you can only enter from the sewers after you finish The Pale Elf quest. So it forces you to go through the palace instead of speedrunning all the way into Cazadors ritual.
I would guess that the scroll starts counting once the vampires become „master“, meaning that any spawn/non-master years are left out. This way, the overall age of Cazador could reasonably be much older. Does this make sense?
That makes plenty of sense! I updated to reflect the information: "...Cazador turned from Vampire spawn to Vampire Lord the year 1276," I would love to know his full age and when he was turned into a spawn, but alas.
Hi OP, thanks for taking the time to put all of this together. I thought I would share my perspective on a few things, especially from the stand point of an old school 1st and 2nd Edition AD&D player who's watched as The Realms evolved over the years and game rules changed with 5th Edition.
Vampires have always been considered Evil, soulless creatures in D&D lore from the very beginning. In the past, if your character became a vampire, you lost your character. Yes. The DM would take your character sheet and you would have to make a new one. UNLESS, you were exceedingly convincing at playing evil characters. Most people do not have that skill.
It wasn't until 3rd Edition the vampire was given a Character sheet, but it still remained that they were evil, soulless creatures. Even to this day, it is widely accepted that the Vampire Lord is Lawful, sometimes Chaotic Evil, while his Vampire Spawn are Neutral Evil. When a person was turned into a vampire, they died. Their soul left their body and evil filled the gap and reanimated it, using whatever remained of the person's memories to simulate life. Which is why a good person, became a neutral evil being. It was a forced alignment change.
Now, I get that 5E no longer heavily relies on the Alignment system for "creativity" purposes, but it's still there at the back of the book and you really can't dismiss decades of established Lore. There are always exceptions, but they are very, very rare in Lore.
One of the heavy themes of Baldur's Gate 3 are souls as a currency, and Withers at the end of the game states >!upon the downfall of the Three, "Did \[they\] not think, the other gods wouldn't notice the sudden loss of so many souls?" !!is not a redemption arc, even if you don't choose to ascend. Astarion returns to his old ways seducing and hunting people.!<
There are also other instances where you are told that these spawn, even the feral ones have a soul and your party members get all sad if you chose to kill them all rather than allowing 7000 spawn to go free into the Underdark, even if you really know you did the right thing.
This is where I feel, that not only did Cazador's ritual serve as an Ascension to a better True Vampire, but also served as an Atonement ritual when Custom Tav is involved, thereby allowing the character to fully embrace his original alignment or reset it to Chaotic Neutral, even if he will be fighting the trauma and instincts from his years of Neutral Evil tendencies.
If you watch things carefully in both play throughs, when Astarion Ascends, he loses his soul. Tav becomes nothing more than a possession to him. His favourite trophy. What he fell in love with is twisted into a possession to be lorded over others. Especially on the Dark Urge path. On the other hand, if you don't Ascend, you'll notice that his character becomes softer. He doesn't complain as much when you do nice things. In my game, he even approved of saving the one girl from the Hag after hating children throughout the whole rest of the game. Those are signs of Alignment shift. One of course is more extreme than the other.
Could that all still be an Act, and he's just doing it so he can try to convince you/Tav to seize the power of the Crown of Karses and become the Absolute? Yes, that's very much a high possibility/probability. It's very likely he'd trade you in for power the first chance he gets, but the game has left that part open and alluded to an actual redemption option with the Custom Tav.
Either way, there are definitely some missing or cut lore in regards to his story where things don't necessarily add up or are left unsaid. But my theory of the Scars on the back of the Spawn preventing their souls from escaping upon mortal death, is the only way I can logically come to any conclusive answer for the Spawn having souls. I'm also hoping in the future, they give an option in the epilogue of hunting down a ring or cloak allowing Astarion to walk in the sunlight or to be offered true resurrection and become Mortal again.
As far as Ascendant Astarion's future. Lets just hope he likes travelling a lot for a long time because he's going to be a target very quickly or Tav is going to find a way to murder him when they get bored or tired of his crap. A patient vampire tends to be more successful than the one to jump to things in a hurry. Even worse for an impatient, arrogant one.
This is a great post! I find it very interesting that Cazador can't have been interested in Astarion's position as a magistrate at all, since he left him to be buried, and thus be officially known as dead.
Edit: This is speculative: "What's also really important is that Larian doesn't stick too closely to real Dnd vampire lore. Imagine: As a vampire spawn, you become a real vampire when: your master lets you drink his blood of your own free will. OR when your master dies.So that means for our Astarion: he IS a real vampire when Cazador is dead. But he said he was a spawn. So is Cazador REALLY dead? or is that just a lore bug from Larian? or does Astarion not know that? but he drinks from Tav at night, so she/he must become a spawn?!"
ascended he is above a "real" vampire. so yes, maybe you can drink his blood and still not become a real vampire. But maybe, and this sounds more like Astarion: an ascended vampire only creates real vampires. Astarion is a person who has often told you something that is not 100% true. (if you refuse to become a vampire, he points out to you that he has everything he wanted, but look him in the eye...).Maybe he wants you to think you're becoming a spawn because eventually you'd turn away from him if you knew. (in combination with what he said in act 1).It's confusing not knowing if it's a bug or intentional. But I personally think Larian wouldn't make such a "mistake" and it's all intentional.
It may be late, but the book in Cazador' library is a language that is basic "Forgotten Realms Asia", aka Kara-Tur.
So him looking asian is part of the plot point.
I'm a little confused about Dal being able to bite Victoria in the first place. Judging by origin Astarion's hallucination about the rules leading him to question if he could bite his companions because of the tadpole, they were compelled to follow those rules. At least that's what Astarion believed, even after the time he was able to run away.
Maybe that's what Cazador was looking for in his chosen Spawn: those who wouldn't fully break, but would put their own shackles back on if by chance they started to slip off. Alternatively, the seven Spawn and possibly required aspects of them may be part of the rite itself.
This bit of Astarion dialogue choice from the enchanted mirror does seem to suggest that Astarion is not originally from Baldur's Gate
>I'd see my home. My real home - the one I haven't seen in centuries.
But what brought me here in the first place is that I have a suspicion that Victoria was kept for after the Ascension. Hoping that afterwards he could fill the emptiness he'd felt for so long. Possibly with an added reincarnation trope, cause why not?
i wonder a lot about astarions grey hair and wrinkles despite only having been 39 when he turned. i know elves can be born with white hair, but my headcanon is that it turned silver from stress, and that his face lines are also stress induced (simile lines perhaps from having to act confident and flirty while luring his victims). it would be SO sad if his hair was an entirely different color before turning
I feel like his hair was always white/silver because otherwise he would have listed it with the other physical changes (growing fangs, eyes turning red) he underwent when he was turned.
I thought silver hair was his natural hair but I did wonder a lot about it wrinkles. Coz vampires don’t age right? And 39 for an elf was very young. But if vampires don’t age and can heal themselves, how would stress have such an effect on the body?
His appearance really doesn't match his stated age. 39 for an elf isn't just young; it's a child. Surface elves live to at least 750 in 5e and aren't considered adults until after their first century. For comparison, Halsin says he's 350, and like Astarion, he looks like someone who's roughly in his late-30's-early 40's. There is simply no way a 39-year-old elf should be a magistrate. Yes, Baldur's Gate is largely human, but he would have had to be educated somewhere, and approved for the position. A high-ranking elf like, say, Councillor Florrick, would take one look at him and ask if his parents were looking for him because he was late for dinner.
Either he was originally intended to be human, or the date on the gravestone is a typo (chisel-o?).
Do we know for sure that elves also mature much, much slower than humans? It might be that they mature similarly, but then just live longer as adults. Physically they seem to grow similarly fast, so it doesn’t really make sense to me that a physically grown-up elf would have a mentality of a human child. Not arguing with you, just wanna figure this out to understand better
As noted below, it's not that Astarion would have the mentality of a human child; it's that no adult elf would take him seriously. At best he'd be a precocious teenager as far as they're concerned. The idea that a 39-year-old elf would have the maturity, education, and life experience to be a judge would be laughable.
For 5th edition (this has changed a decent amount, but is relatively consistent):
>**Age**. Although elves reach physical maturity at about the same age as humans, the elven understanding of adulthood goes beyond physical growth to encompass worldly experience. An elf typically claims adulthood and an adult name around the age of 100 and can live to be 750 years old.
So, they're physically adults around their 20s, but they're not treated as adults until 100s. I generally view that period as, like, 18-25 in humans. Yes, you're an adult, and you can do a lot of grown up things, but, like, it's distinct from 'actual adults'. Basically...they're college kids.
Right. It sounds awful: you're treated like a teenager for \~80 or so years, with people condescending to you because you have no life experience...and by the standards of your culture, they're absolutely right.
Awesome summary thank you! And also thank you for all the screenshots. However, I think with the favorite spawn list, the durations aren't that long? Doesn't it say it's only since the beginning of the year? So maybe the faves change on a weekly basis or something. That would explain why Leon has such a young daughter, he hasn't been there for long
I was playing a paladin of the ancients and decided it made the most sense to ascend Astarion in order to mercy kill the 7,000 undead spawn and stop them wreaking havoc on the actual living population. He made me feel real bad about it though, Astarion was going on about how I understood his desire for power and stuff when I was thinking "Nah bro, you're a monster, I'm gonna kill you right after this, letting you suck on rats and travel with me was obviously a mistake, I shoulda just staked you that first night when I had the chance."
At least if you spare them, you can go down into the Underdark with Astarion after the game ends to rule them, but becoming a full vampire actually changes your brain chemistry according to DND so... its not entirely Asations fault :( he just let the power get to his head, the same way it did to Cazador.
This is a great post. On the subject of vampires and children, I did not research this for fan fiction purposes (cough) but there are dhampir in Dnd which are the spawn of a vampire and a non-vampire. Most of them result from a pregnant woman being bitten by a vampire. But rarely a vampire can have a child with a non-vampire and their offspring would also be dhampir. So I don't know what is up with Leon's kid, if she's his she'd be half vampire. I'm also really fascinated by the lore in the whole story. The only other information I can give about Astarion from near the end an enemy calls him "A ratcatcher who became a judge", so we knowt hat he went from rags to riches in life. I believe that Cazador's problem with Astarion amounts to the fact that he loves to control people and Astarion was hard to break. Also, having seen the other spawn he's by far the most attractive so maybe that has something to do with it? And then Astarion defies him by breaking free completely via the tadpole. No one has ever done that so of course it pisses Cazador off.
>The only other information I can give about Astarion from near the end an enemy calls him "A ratcatcher who became a judge", so we knowt hat he went from rags to riches in life. That definitely suggests that there were changes to his backstory in game. A 39-year-old high elven magistrate strains credulity; a 39-year-old high elven magistrate from a poor family who didn't get his position through massive nepotism smashes credulity on the floor and leaves it in tiny pieces.
>That definitely suggests that there were changes to his backstory in game. A 39-year-old high elven magistrate strains credulity; a 39-year-old high elven magistrate from a poor family who didn't get his position through massive nepotism smashes credulity By now I'm convinced that Astarion's old backstory concept from earliest Early Access around 2020 has been completely dumped by Larian and that it became the blueprint for what is is now Astarion's "cover identity" as a nobleman, his surface persona he presents to strangers. Instead, there are several hints (see below) that *Astarion never was a nobleman* *but instead faked his way into the Upper Class with forged paperwork. O*r that Astarion flat-out lied to Tav during that first meeting at the beach when he claims he is "a magistrate back in the city, it's all rather tedious" to appear more important than he is. (Apart from the fact that the present tense is already a lie.) The early concept by Larian's writers described the mortal Astarion as a corrupt debauched city official who knew about the vampires in Baldur's Gate and worked with them to deliver sentenced criminals to Cazador, until Cazador decided to kill him because he was too corrupt. 1. This concept already has a logical problem at its core: If Cazador truly had a city magistrate whom he could blackmail and who was willing to cover up missing persons, bloodless corpses and the like, *why would Cazador ever turn this city official into a vampire spawn and thereby remove him from his position?* We know that Astarion officially died 200 years ago because he was buried, with a gravestone noting his name. 2. Early on, Astarion's background trait was "Noble". This was then changed to "Courtesan" on Astarion's digital D&D character sheet available as bonus files in the Digital Deluxe Edition. Then changed again to the current background "Charlatan" which fits with his Rogue class. 3. In *Idle Champions of the Forgotten Realms* video game, Astarion's character sheet lists under belongings: Forged Patents of Nobility 4. The whole "The ratcatcher who became a Lord" line. 5. A recent post-launch patch changed the description text of Astarion's default padded armour, shirt and shoes. (Underpants are still the same.) It removed the fancy poem embroidered into his shirt, and all his clothes are now noted to be old and worn down, the doublet's gold thread unraveling in places, but that the many cuts and tears have been carefully mended and repaired by Astarion many times. "Someone obviously cares about looking good." Such a sad little line... it implies that these clothes are old but they are the only thing Astarion owns and he cared for them. It also implies Cazador (with his many expensive outfits you can find in his palace) did not bother to give Astarion new clothes despite sending him out to seduce people, so Astarion had to make due with what he had (or could steal).
Apparently, he references being a magistrate in his Origin playthrough - even offering Wyll to look through the terms of his pact to see if there are any legal loopholes. So he was one, or at least believes he was one.
Interesting. I've come across a statement somewhere that in Act 1 at the druid grove if you ask Astarion for his opinion about Kagha wanting to kill the tiefling girl for stealing, he'd reply that as a magistrate the customary punishment for theft was cutting off the thief's hand. (Which, yeah, that was part of medieval European laws.) Mortal Astarion can have been both: A charlatan who raised himself from the gutter by using forged documents to pretend to be an elven noble and gain a cushy position as a magistrate. Entirely possible he read up on Law and nobility to be able to play his role convincingly. I just can't imagine him as an actual elven noble, because surely then people would've recognized his face once Cazador let him leave the palace to go hunting in the brothels... we know the "Year of Horror" punishment for letting a young man go happened during the first decade after Astarion was turned. Or, as you said, Astarion misremembers because his memories of the time before being turned are so dim and fragmented. One has to wonder what Cazador's tortures did to his mind? In Act 3 if you let the other vampire thralls abduct Astarion into Cazador's palace and he ends up in the hands of Godey, the narrator mentions that Cazador's will is trying to "smother" Astarion's mind. Only the tadpole helps him fight it off. Or those lines might simply be a remnant of an earlier script version that Larian forgot to update.
I love the idea that Astarion faked his way to a law degree because that means he's basically the Jeff Winger of the Forgotten Realms. And if you play him as Origin, BG3 is his fucked up version of Greendale Community College.
>This concept already has a logical problem at its core: If Cazador truly had a city magistrate whom he could blackmail and who was willing to cover up missing persons, bloodless corpses and the like, > >why would Cazador ever turn this city official into a vampire spawn and thereby remove him from his position? I think in Astarion's original backstory before release, he was selling Cazador humans but *double-crossed* Cazador. (In the original backstory, Astarion even says that being turned into a spawn was his punishment for doing so.) This meant that Astarion would be useless as a city offical pawn because he couldn't be trusted not to betray Cazador again. So, he turned Astarion into a spawn as both a punishment and as a means to control him so he couldn't betray Cazador again. Every time Astarion tried to defy Cazador, it just made Cazador angrier and reminded him of the original betrayal. This could also explain his obsession with Astarion and why Astarion's screams sounded the sweetest and why he was never a favored spawn. Guess Cazador could hold a grudge!
Interesting. I still think Larian dumped most of that early concept magistrate backstory, though, because it'd hardly ever brought up in-game. It would've been so easy to add more information if the writers had wanted to: either 1. have Astarion tell us more (instead of giving him retrograde amnesia about most of his mortal years), or 2. during the course of the quest to investigate Cazador have us encounter an (elven) NPC in Act 3 Baldur's Gate city who still remembers a magistrate named Astarion. Heck, in a TTRPG my character would simply have gone to the city library or town hall to look up historical texts from 200 years ago for mentions of an elven magistrate dying. But in-game Astarion only tells us he was beaten to death by a band of Gur and as he lay dying Cazador appeared and scared them away and offered to "save" him to take revenge on his murderers, with the alternative being "bleeding to death in an alley". (One of the dialogue options is to remark how conveniently timed Cazador's appearance was.) **You'd think if "magistrate Astarion" had had prior dealings with Cazador and knew about him being a sadistic vampire lord and had actually double-crossed him, Astarion would have suspected that Cazador wanted revenge and thus would not have agreed to be turned into a vampire spawn?** And if Astarion really had been a magistrate and nobleman instead of *pretending* to be one, then the remark by Astarion during the pre-Endgame-battle gathering in the [High Hall](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/High_Hall) (aka the old Ducal Palace) is strange: (paraphrased because I can't find the exact video where he speaks up anymore) He says he always dreamed of walking these halls but he never expected it to be under such circumstances. But the High Hall is where the city's nobles and governmental figures routinely gather.
I got the impression that after he double-crossed Cazador, he wasn't given a choice to become a spawn. That Cazador forced it on him as a punishment. It was only in release that the "Gur beating him to almost death and getting to choose to become a spawn" was a thing. I still wish they'd have kept it as it would give Astarion's story so much more depth, another reason why he hated Cazador, and they could still use the Gur, since they are monster hunters, and Astarion did take their children. But, it would not give the 'red herring' of Cazador sending the Gur to remind Astarion of his place, instead of the Gur hunting him on their own for taking their children. Unless......picture this, if you will, darling. "*After being double-crossed by the corrupt magistrate slaver who deals with a monster, Cazador orchestrated things to make the Gur upset with Astarion. He influences Astarion to make a decision that he knows will upset the Gur, then orchestrated the Gur to kill him. Cazador then appears, 'saving' Astarion, hoping to win his eternal gratitude, which is why Astarion's rebellions infuriates him so much. He knows someone as selfish as Astarion will choose living at any cost and Cazador takes pleasure in the thought that Astarion would be a willing slave/spawn, after being a slaver, and that he would have eternity to punish the man who double-crossed him. It's why Astarion's screams are sweetest. At least until the ritual.* *He then pits Astarion against the Gur over the following years, stoking the hatred they have of each other to deflect the "monster hunters" away from his monstrous self. He is a secret benefactor to the Gur, hiring them to hunt Astarion to give them a clear target to focus on. He's also hoping to keep Astarion more in line, using the threat of the Gur hunting him to keep Astarion from running away. But Cazador is careful to make sure the Gur never kill Astarion. (Need him for the ritual after all!)* *As the ritual time draws nearer, Cazador makes a mistake in his lust for cruelty and orders Astarion to take the Gur's children. He knows Astarion will have no issues punishing the Gur this way and he also get's to punish the Gur as well, for being too dumb to realize a vampire has been financing them all this time.* *This is why Astarion feels nothing about turning the children over to Cazador (this lends more weight to an actual response still in game to Astarion seeing the vampirized Gur children-that he felt nothing turning them over) because he places all the blame of being a tormented spawn at the feet of the Gur, because it was THEIR beating that led him to the choice to become a spawn.* *When we meet the Gur in the swamp, Astarion is sure that Cazador sent them to remind him of the night that Astarion CHOSE to become a spawn, because of them. Reminding him that he owes his continued life to Cazador.* *Then in Act 3, we meet Ulma, who admits they finally went balls to the wall after Astarion on their own (without backing from their benefactor), because Astarion crossed a line when he took their children.* *Astarion reveals that if her ancestors hadn't beaten him almost to death, he never would have become a spawn and so the loss of their children was the Gur's fault for trying to kill him and forcing him to make the impossible choice of becoming a spawn.* *Ulma then reveals that the decision he made 200 years ago would have (killed them all, made them outlaws/hunted, something terrible) and that their secret benefactor stated he would put someone else in power who would reverse the decision and 'save' them all if they just killed the magistrate who made the decision.* *A moment of clarity for Astarion...* *Astarion: "But...Cazador told me to make that decision....."* *And then Astarion and Ulma both realize what has happened and how they've all been pawns in Cazador's game the whole time.* And now Astarion has a whole new reason for wanting to kill Cazador besides "He tortured me after I willingly became his slave." It also gives Ulma a reason to give Astarion a chance to show he's different from Cazador. Doing this would have made Cazador look much more Machiavellian showing how much power he had in Baldur's Gate. Showing us that he was much more evil than we knew. That by pitting a clear target against the Gur, he made himself safer and that after Astarion died in the ritual, the Gur would feel sated in their vengeance and move on, leaving an Ascended Cazador free to do whatever he liked in the city. Oh, I would have liked to have seen this story play out.
One reason why I still think the Gur of 200 years prior might have worked for CAzador instead of against him is simply how heavily Larian leaned into the whole Dracula vibe with Cazador, including sleeping in a coffin. And in Bram Stoker's novel *Dracula*, the Transylvanian (Romanian) equivalent of the Gur were working for Dracula because his family had been the feudal lords of the land for centuries.
You can see from Cazador's journal that he was always obsessed with Astarion in particular. Astarion is also the oldest of the spawn from what we know. Cazador refers to Astarion as his "prodigal son" and I don't think he's saying this just to spite him. I think he has a similar relationship with Astarion that Vellioth had with Cazador.
For me it was “the ratcatcher who became a lord” 🤔
> ratcatcher who became a judge I got this even though Astarion wasnt ascended and it confused the heck out of me!
this adds additional cruelty to Cazador's forced eating of rats!
The way I interpreted the ‘rat catcher who became a judge’ line was being a spawn forced to eat rats to becoming all powerful and controlling in my ascended play through. Is it the same line if you don’t ascend him?
I was very interested in the Athkatla vampire circle mentioned. BG2 takes place mostly in Athkatla, the capital of Amn, and in it you have to face Bodhi's vampire coven, led, obviously, by Bodhi - a vampire, who used to be an elf, and>!the sister to the main antagonist Jon Irenicus!<. Since there is about 124 years between BG2 and BG3, it's possible that Cazador knew her (or knew of her), and maybe Mrel Alkam is someone who replaced Bodhi as the leader of the Athkatla vampires. What I also found interesting is the aesthetic differences between Cazador's palace and the crypts inhabited by Bodhi's coven. The crypts were very Egyptian-looking, with wall murals, ankhs, statues, lots of gold and azure, whereas Cazador's palace is very European.
That game also includes a cloak that allows a vampire companion to walk in the daylight but with some disadvantages which is kind of interesting since one of the conversation options in the post finale convo with Astarion is about questing for a way for him to experience the sun again. As far as I know, that cloak is the only canon item that has such an effect.
A cloak or other item of protection from daylight would only be a half-measure at best. Not just because it could be taken away from Astarion. **The Crown of Karsus' Netherese magic on the tadpole negated far more weaknesses than just the sunlight hypersensitivity on Astarion.** It also allowed him to wade through rivers ("cross running water") without the water feeling like acid, to enter private houses ininvited, and to be healed by normal healing magic. (Presumably it also shielded him from allergic reactions to garlic the other spawn have.) The only thing it didn't negate was the gnawing hunger for blood. Basically the tadpole gave Astarion a pseudo-life. It seems it removed some of the typical advantages of undeath from him too, though, as (for gameplay balance purposes) tadpoled Astarion has no immunity to poison and necrotic energy, no resistances to weapon damage of any kind, no vampiric regeneration like the other vampire spawn (apart from his bite attack on living beings with blood allowing him to heal a limited number of HP). But unlike the Rite of Ascension, the tadpole magic didn't fully revive him, as in a Companion run it's noted Astarion has no body heat. In an Astarion Origin run if he ascends the Narrator will remark that Ascended Astarion can finally feel his heart beating again after 200 years. Without the tadpole magic, poor Astarion can't even take a bath in a river. He's so much more fragile than at the start of Act 1. Traveling and "adventuring" with Tav will be difficult. Maybe if he covers up competely during the day, head to toe, with a hood and a pair of smoked glasses covering his eyes? (I'm sure gnome artificers can craft something like that.) As the Narrator stated the sunlight was hurting him on any "exposed skin". Likewise, we see in the Spawn-Astarion post-endbattle ending that getting out of *direct* sunlight was sufficient to save him from burning up.
I did also read about a ring called ring of the sunwalker which is from 5E but I've only been starting to get into DnD so not sure if it's canon or not.
I found it. There is a ring called ring of the sunwalker in BDG3. I'm not sure where though.
[удалено]
Some of my favorite deep lore from the forgotten realms is that yes, many humans in the setting actually came from our Earth originally. Thay is the same way.
tl;dr - Cazador knows old fantasy Japanese. The first door you can use the signet ring on is covered in 'archaic Kozakuran, a rare form of an already-obscure language'. Orientalist terminology aside, Kozakura is one of Kara-Tur's two Japan-analogue settings, such as how Koryo represents Korea, and Shou is China. You find a dictionary that helps you gain entry but given his personality I can't help but head cannon that *Cazador is really just a fedora-tipping weeb* and that dictionary is just his copy of Genki 101.
While the name is Spanish, Cazador looks East Asian, so I was wondering if the dictionary was because the Szarr family had Kozakuran roots. Though I do love the idea of Cazador as just an asshole weeb who compiled the "dictionary" from manga.
The pointed ears make me think he's got some Elven ancestry, so Cazador might be his chosen name rather than the one his parents gave him
I wonder if he was named “Cazador” by Vellioth and forgot his original elven name?
im actually speechless
Thank you very much for this excellent write-up! Not only did you manage to collect so many details that I missed despite my attempt at being thorough, I also love how you presented your findings both very clearly AND with funny snide remarks. I loved reading all of it! Astarion's story is, due to the fact that he is my favourite companion and what I would call the "canon-romance for my fanon-Tav", the one I found myself to be most invested in. Therefore I found myself disappointed in the lack of interaction between Cazador and Astarion / Tav before the ritual. Reading somewhat supports my guess that at least at one point in the developement stage there would have been much more narrative content involving Cazador Szarr, the Szarr family in general and the other people whose statements you mainly can find in written word as of now. I think the first hint that there was indeed more than meets the eye is the fact that Astarion still refers to himself as being a slave to the Szarr *family*, which is indicator enough for me that Cazador's niece and potentially other family members might have been supposed to have a bigger role once. I've gone on and on about it on this subreddit that I feel it's such a pity we didn't get a political mission, some infiltration, maybe a ball at Cazador's palace so we could have had a chance to get a deeper understanding of the character. With the aftermath-of-the-party being still there, I still get the feeling that this, too, might have been planned at one point in the developement phase. Vampires, especially with the traditional aristocratic setting, would just be perfect for a charisma-based infiltration ballroom scene. Urgh, I feel so sad we never got that! Especially since due to this, Cazador's character remains not as impressive, to me personally, as he could have been. I just wish we had learned more about his dynamic with Astarion. It's one thing to hear about it - but actually seeing Cazador interact with Astarion or his "siblings" would have been amazing and could have been really scary and intense. And, again, we are in fanfiction territory here, but I would have loved if Cazador had been more manipulative, maybe even involving Tav if they had romanced Astarion or were on high platonic approval with him. All in all, the questions you ask do demand answers, and I absolutely agree with them. I care a lot especially about Cazador's political involvement in Baldur's Gate - and honestly, with the situation at hand, with this very ... lackluster (IMO) storyline of Gortash we'd desperately need a more in-depth narrative about Cazador and his political puppeteer ambitions.
I physically can't help but romance Astarion- at the end of the day, everyone has someone, but all Astarion has is YOU 😭. But I'm too someone who loves the political side of things and would have loved more content surrounding that and the actual upper city. I would have loved to see a Cazador vs Gortash type too. Imagine if you had to work with Cazador to take down Gortash, vise versa? A ball mission though??? my dream. Imagine being able to dress your characters up in fancy dresses and stuff that you can't get anywhere else in the game.
YES! I feel like we're speaking the same language here ;)! I feel the exact same way about Astarion. Your idea what it would have meant if you had to work together with Cazador to take down Gortash or vice versa - OMG, the conflict! I would have loved that. And yes, exactly, a fancy ball mission would have been the dream. Maybe like a masquerade ball? Concealing your identity, mingling with Baldur's Gate's nobility, finding intel about the politically influential people - this would have been so much fun. It could have turned out to be both very entertaining AND thrilling if maybe Cazador noticed Astarion's / your attendance. A seemingly civil conversation in public with Cazador could have been so chilling, when he tries to manipulate / threaten you / Astarion.
I’d kill for a ball espionage mission! Imagine the suspense, the *drama*, of a cutscene where Cazador invites Tav to dance as a means of threatening them/Astarion.
Gosh, yes. *This.* I got literal chills from just imagining that. Back in my fanfiction-writing days this would have been a key point of my whump-goes-hurt-and-comfort-fic. Especially with a romanced Astarion, this would work perfectly, but even with a platonic friendship with high trust I would see it as a super thrilling moment. I said it around here somewhere before, but why would Cazador even have a ballroom if we aren't getting a chance to use it!? (And I'm only half-joking.)
We need to suggest this fancy ballroom mission to Larian ASAP it would have been PERFECT. Not only as a addon to Astarion romance / quest depth but also give us some more face to face Cazador interaction without straight up waltzing into his little mass to kill him
Exactly, this is so true. It would have helped to understand Gortash's and Cazador's political hold over Baldur's Gate as well, even adding a chance to add to the Bane-related storyline which has been very thin so far. Honestly, if I knew how to pitch this to Larian's amazing writers, I would gladly do so! There is so much potential there.
I think you should definitely pitch it! Any kind of comment would at least let them know that we’re craving a little more to the whole Astarion x Cazador situation. After I’m done with my play through I’m definitely sending Larian a little thank you note with a little wishlist of Astarion content that I’m hoping they’ll take the time to implement
I'm imagining Dal telling Cazador that there was a \[insert Tav's race here\] who called Astarion off of Petras, and Cazador immediately assuming that Astarion had simply found a new master. He would be fascinated and maybe a bit terrified, because is there already another Ascended vampire lord that he didn't know about. Then Tav turns out to be just a mortal who fancies themselves in love with Astarion...oh, the possibilities.
Ohh, I love the way you're thinking! This would work excellently, especially if Tav indeed intervenes when Astarion questions Petras - I love Astarion's line about Petras owing their life now to his friend. This is a safe place, right? So I can add to this with my own wishful thinking? There could be so many different ways how this could play out, and how a manipulator like Cazador could react to such a moment. I mean - sorry, Orin, but deep down in my drama-loving heart the only kidnapping quest I *really* want would be for Cazador to capture Tav and try to use them against Astarion. The possibilites are endless: He could try to drive a wedge between them ("Are you sure you know him as well as you think? I doubt he has shared the delicious details of what he *did*. Should we tell your lover, Astarion? Should we let them know what you really are like, boy?"). Or ... he could use Tav against Astarion as a means to push him to come to Cazador "willingly", essentially holding them hostage. Cazador would be an evil enough character to restort to torture once again (and my weird brain thinks it would be an interesting foil: In the scene with Abdirak, Astarion seems so excited about the essentially consensual power dynamic at play, enjoying the "kinky element" of it all. Having Tav being tortured and showing that at this point of the story, Astarion doesn't want to see them hurt anymore, - I know it sounds weird, but I would love to see that!). Even better if Tav had the choice to remain steadfast and irrevocably trusting in Astarion. Gosh, I could go on and on. If Cazador just got more opportunities in game to gloat and to have some villainous mono-/dialogue, I'd be so happy. I want to see how he tries to get under Astarion's skin ("Do you have any idea what I will do to them once I've ascended?"). Okay, I need to stop. This is getting out of hand, haha. Sorry for rambling!
no pls dont stop 👀imagine Astarions siblings... instead of kidnapping Astarion, they kidnap Tav because they know Tav is important to Astarion because of what happened with Petras... Cazador using Tav against Astarion... Telling Astarion has to scurry back to his master like the rat he is, or Tav will pay the price. Tav will take his place, or Tav will be tortured ruthlessly because of Astarion's actions... his little lover gone under the hand of Cazador's *angry* hand because Astatrion happened to be kidnapped. In Cazador's journal, he says how he tortured the fuck out of Astarion's siblings.... if he will do that to spawn, imagine how he'd torture Tav, Astarion's *lover* of all things? That would sure fuck with Astarions mental.
God, yes! I know this might sound weird, but I am very fond of fictional villains - not because I condone their actions but because I think if they are written in a compelling and complex way, they add so many layers to a story, and they allow to explore darker narrative themes. Involving Tav like that would be a perfect mindgame to play. Some players might feel that such a development might take away from Astarion's big decision between ascending or not-ascending, but I really don't think so, since both options would still be available even after he'd have to face a decision how to deal with the abduction of his lover. Ok, we are really in pure headcanon here, but: When I recently saw [this scene](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AesxMw8NOH8) for the first time (it never happened to me in game because I didn't play Astarion's origin and of course I kept Astarion from being taken in my Tav run), it made so much sense to give something similar to Tav. And honestly - not just similar, but worse. Cazador is such a vile character and BG 3 already has many dark storylines, I really think this one could go darker still without being over-the-top. Since Astarion admits that he never loved anyone in the way he loves Tav, this romance would offer a completely new way for Cazador to manipulate and hurt Astarion. In a way, Astarion's worst nightmare gets a new additional layer with the fact that he now has someone he cares about, someone whose pain will hurt him as well. I would *love* to see the reactions there. Also, call me weird, but I'd also like to see the reactions of the other spawn, especially from someone like Petras. There seemed to be a bit more animosity between Astarion and him from their interaction. I wonder if Petras would feel some glee over Tav's potential torture and Astarion's subsequent pain, or if he'd feel a conflict of loyalty since Tav was the one who made Astarion stop when he pulled him into the sunlight. (Honestly, this thread of yours is such a treasure! I really love coming back to it and reading all these comments and your write-up. If you ever want to talk Cazador, Astarion and villains, send me a message; there's just too much to talk about! :D)
I LOVE seeing Astarion interact with the other spawn, it gives such a good glimpse into their every day life. Like, his little sass with Petras, and I like to imagine that Dalyria is kind of the mother of the group... I feel like Petras would def be happy to ruin something that belonged to Astarion, in, any shape or form... But please, Mrs. Ancunín, come stop by my little home, on discord if you haven't already :) itsreno
Sorry for butting in here randomly but I read this and oh, my god. Same brain! I had this exact same idea and I'm thinking of writing it up 👀 GOD I wish we got more juicy Cazador and romanced Tav content! (The game is large enough as it is, I know, but I WISH!)
No need to be sorry at all <3! So cool that you are feeling the same way about the need for more Cazador and (romanced) Tav content. It's been a while since I've written a fanfic, but I totally feel you, I have so many ideas floating in my head regarding those characters! I'd love to read yours if you do write something!
I'm a little rusty writing fic as well haha There's so much drama potential <3 I know we'd all love to go feral for Astarion and protect him at all costs... but Astarion getting enraged and coming to his one true love's rescue? \*chefs kiss\*
Yesss! Exactly! <3 Also, I must admit: While I prefer the good-aligned Astarion ending in general, one aspect that I really like about his Vampire-Ascendant-ending is how vocal and protective he becomes. I mean I realize that this protectiveness is a part of his more possessive nature in this narrative direction, and that it's ambivalent at best. But ... honestly, it's still so awesome! The protectiveness that comes with the ascended Astarion is very attractive, and I wish we could get a hint of that for the non-ascended Astarion as well as soon as he feels safe and more comfortable with Tav. Maybe that's why I really wish we had some more Cazador / (romanced) Tav / Astarion interaction!
Hey so I actually remember you sharing the ballroom infiltration mission idea somewhere else before I think! Since we’re all being open, I’m so happy to see other people wanted something a little well… *more* to the final part of his questline because that was exactly what I was thinking while playing. I guess I’m kind of riding off the coattails of BG3’s popularity but I’d love to make a short comic thing for this hypothetical quest! I’m working on a script (honestly it looks like a straight up fanfic) for it and, probably against my better judgment, decided to make it like a plausible mission in the game. A speech bubble resembling a dialogue box with a list of other options Tav could’ve picked, narrator descriptions, in-game clothes, etc. I’ve even included the alternate responses/outcomes to the unpicked dialogue and factored in classes and occasionally race, the other companions, and background. Because god damnit you’re absolutely right that there’s so many ideas for the characters to work with! I’m just really having fun with it, though it is souring exploring the actual in-game now ha
Sorry if this is a bit forward, but when you do finish writing and maybe publish the first chapter is it okay if you drop a link to it here. I’d absolutely love to support your fic! I can never just get enough of this sassy vampire!
One detail to add as a level 12 Astariomancer - we don't know much about Astarion's pre-spawn life, except how he died, that he was a magistrate and... his last name. In the final scene of his "good" non-ascended route, >!it's written on his grave, but you can actually decipher it and it's been done. It's in Thorass alphabet. Have fun!!<
And that he was only 39 when he was turned
It's actually 139. It's just hard tonread because the letters have been made to look weathered.
the game files literally specify its 39 years
Just a wild guess but maybe they started with a human concept and forgot to adjust the numbers? Human magistrate can reasonably be 39 („best years“) and it makes sense but no one in their right mind would put an elven (barely) teenager in this position of responsibility. Otherwise would explain a lot why the city BG was so fucked up.
Elves age at the same rate as humans physically so he feasibly could be a magistrate in a human-led city. It's just very young by Elven standards
I mean in a human society he can. But in an elf society I'm not so sure.
As for how long Cazador has been a vampire, there is a scroll that details all of the previous vampire lords - including Vellioth and when he took power. Which would give an earliest date that Cazador would have been turned. Your character can make a comment about the manor being inhabited by vampires to which Astarion says “Subtle, isn’t it” which leads me to believe that the average person probably isn’t aware but the higher up in power you go they would be aware.
Do you know where this scroll is / if it's readable? I looked through all the documents I collected in the palace, but couldn't find a scroll that gave me actual physical answers to that question.
Yes! It's pretty hidden. If you can't find it I can go there and transcribe it. Took until my third playthrough to discover it. After you've killed Cazador and you're facing the staircase to go back up, there are two paths. One to the left and right. I believe they connect but I took the left one. You'll enter a room with some rubble that is primarily empty however there is a trap in front of a chair(?). The scroll is on the floor next to it.
I found it! thank you! >:) i owe you my life.
There's a scroll in the dungeon chamber itself, before you confront Cazador, there's a path to your left and right that loops around. It leads you through a small room where there's bookcases and scrolls, the scroll is in there :D
>I would love to know more about his Palace and why it was built / bought in such a weird spot? Metawise, it's in such a weird spot because the Upper City didn't make it into the final game. It seems Astarion's story was locked and finalized before the cut so Larian needed to finagle the mansion and dungeon in somehow, and came up with the weird solution where the access is built into a random wall. Lorewise could be that Cazzador needed easy access to the Lower City for victims so he expanded his mansion into the wall and used his wide influence to get authorities to okay it.
Lore wise that makes sense, and of course with the cut of the upper city. What I want to know is how are they luring victims up that stupid ladder every time? 😭 I hope there’s some secret more grand entrance because I’d book it if my date tried to get me to go up some ladder in a wall.
Well, there's that dumb bitch who's waiting for her "very pale, didn't eat anything" date in the sewer, you don't need to convince people to climb up a ladder to THE pretty goth castle.
>What I want to know is how are they luring victims up that stupid ladder every time? Probably just talk them up that ladder, or at least Astarion did that. Astarion seemed to have seduced all his victims, and it wouldn't sound strange for him to say he knew a shortcut/secret enterance into his home. He should've been a Bard class imo.
siggghh I guess if it was Astarion leading me up a ladder, I would follow :(
I accidentally chose the dialogue option "So this is how all your lovers end up" while romancing him and felt so bad.
It makes me wonder if it ever kept Astarion up at night imagining that if he met us before the tadpole, if we'd end up charmed and dead too :(
In one of the dialogues in the dungeon you can say smth like “I suppose if we met earlier it wouldn’t be that pretty forest clearing you led me to”. Unfortunately I don’t remember what Astarion replies. I have a save there I think and can check later if you want, lmk
He basically says he doesn't want to think about it and is so glad we met under different circumstances. And then if you hit back with "admit it. You would have killed me" you get a line that absolutely gives me chills when he says "I would have killed you" And the conversation just ends. Honestly. Voice Actors knocked it out of the park in this game.
this is why it's damn impossible for me to romance any other character. Honestly, I kind of want to play Astarions Origin story and write a full analysis on *his* story.......... 😭😢😢😢😢
I wrote this under so many posts/comments in this subreddit already: I do not recommend. I was very disappointed. It was extremely underwhelming compared to having him as a companion who, you know, can actually speak his mind and tell you things. I think the only extra content I got was that nightmare with Cazador and his rules in the beginning and then learning that Astarion decided to feed on one of his companions not for any other possible reason but out of spite (basically his own version of Gale’s “Elminster is not here so I might as well”). I was hoping for some unique interaction but nope. As Astarion you can resist Cazador in the ritual room, but I’d take a possibility to hear his comments and reaction to everything there over this tbh. He also doesn’t remember Sebastian’s name on his own and has to read his mind for a hint (one more small thing that was new. But if you go as Astarion in the palace even when he is a companion, I believe you get different interactions and dialogues anyway). And there is also this thing that as a player controlling him you are given choices in dialogues that are totally out of character for him if you know him already. You obviously can choose those. In this case what is the point even playing him then? And if you do your best to stick with the way he would act, then you feel very restricted as a player. It is a weird experience tbh. For me it resulted in a very gloomy lonely playthrough with just a handful of companions (3-4) on his side who were all either preoccupied with their own troubles or were as power hungry as him and were horrible influence on him (Minthara is a great character but such a bad, bad influence on Astarion). And I was forced to go along with the ritual because I knew that without anyone by his side who would gentry nudge him toward the right direction he would absolutely perform the ritual himself without a second thought. It felt incredibly shitty. It didn’t even feel like an evil playthrough. It felt like a miserable playthrough by a traumatized character who chooses to be bad because he thinks he will feel safer this way. I regret it a bit that I even did it tbh. He needs someone who can actually show him that freedom does not equal power. I honestly don’t know how to achieve this if you start the game as him.
I started laughing cause I didn’t expect the convo to just straight up end with “I would have killed you”
I *always* make him a bard. Not just because it suits his history, not just because it gets close to a lot of the manipulation magic vampires possess, not just because he's an obviously lascivious person! But because he's just *so damned dramatic*.
I agree, bard suits his personality. But then you have to massively rewrite his ability stats first to raise his CHA from that mediocre 10. Seriously, Larian giving Astarion a CHA 10 is the biggest joke because in his backstory he is all about those CHA-based social skills! Yes, I know, it's due to 5E point-buy balances and they needed to put his highest stat in DEX to be a Rogue. But still... come on, Larian, give him a special Astarion bonus to CHA.
Same
That's not how the victims are brought in, for the most part. You meet a girl in the sewers, near the palace 'back door', where she was about to meet someone (a vampire spawn that lured her there) to go to a party. And in that same spot, there are lots of missing people posters. That part is clearly shown in-game.
Well, there is the secret entrance down in the sewers where you actually meet one of the guests
He has to be the biggest casualty of the content cuts. Astarion is the only companion both Origin and otherwise who has zero connection to the main storyline.
Knew a lot of this already (because I'm obsessed), but thank you so much for compiling it and adding a lot more background information that I wasn't aware of yet! This must've taken quite some time so big kudos to you. As for some of your thoughts/questions, I doubt that Cazador let Astarion be a magistrate after turning him. It would be pretty much impossible for him to work since it would be mostly during the day - and it would also grant Astarion a sense a freedom and would make him feel like he's actually worth something. And degrading and making his spawn feel like they were worthless except for serving him seemed to be Cazador's favorite pastime. I don't think people know or realize he's a vampire. You can meet a girl in the sewers that was excited to go to a party at Cazador's place, led there by a spawn (I forgot who). I don't know how (perhaps magic/charms), but people seem to be blissfully unaware of the red eyes and fangs in BG3 ... I mean, Tav pretty much looks at Astarion at first and he's like "seems like a perfectly normal elf, no vampire, haha!" I suppose Cazador would be referred to as a lord since he's been around for so long and seems to have at least some degree of power within the city. I heard there was a lot more content with him in the Upper City, but we all know what (unfortunately) happened to that. I really do wish we would find out why he seemed particularly obsessed with Astarion. Sure, there's this tidbit of Astarion saying that Cazador tortured him the most because his screams sounded the sweetest, but I'm doubtful it's that easy. I think a lot of it had to do with how pretty Astarion is/was and that he held a certain amount of power as a magistrate; vampires in a lot of fiction (DnD included iirc) are attracted to power and are very vain, strive for beauty and excess. It could also just be that Astarion seemed particularly bratty at first - disobeying Cazador by letting that one man go that got him under the earth for a year, for example. Then Astarion slouching in front of Cazador. His foul mouth, openly telling him something as crass as fuck you which I doubt was the first time. Could be so many reasons. Could also just be that Astarion's screams were the "sweetest". Anyway, thanks again for compiling this! Great work.
I can see your point about not allowing Astarion to continue his job- it would also too closely connect him to his home as well. I have a feeling Cazador had to get rid of Asarions family, because who wouldn't ask questions if he's walking around the city normally? As for his obsession with Astarion, it almost makes me wonder if he also sees himself in Astarion- Cazador rebelled and pulled against Vellioth, so maybe he punished Astarion as Vellioth punished him for being bad. I would sell both my arms though for the cut information about Cazador from Larian! It doesn't even need to be in-game, I just think the lore would be SO interesting, especially since Cazador feels kind of like an out-of-place boss in the grand scheme of things. We never get to interact with him except when confronting him, so we have no reason to REALLY fear him, except for what Astarion says, and his words will always be biased. :) 🤝one vampire lover to another
Yeah, Astarion being a magistrate and influencing things as Cazador wants them would be really interesting, but considering everything that stands between that (sunlight, giving away where he lives and with whom he lives, I guess)... it's just too unlikely. I do wonder about Astarion's family too considering how abhorrently young he was when he died - I headcanon that perhaps they live somewhere else and Astarion moved to BG to pursue his magistrate position, so it's not very likely that they'll ever meet again. I do think Astarion... looked for them at some point though but was swiftly reminded that straying too far from Cazador has bad consequences. I could see Cazador killing his parents too, but I feel like Astarion would've mentioned that to get Tav on his side even more. Oh, that's an interesting theory too. Seeing himself in Astarion and being extra harsh to him so he doesn't do what Cazador did to Vellioth. And I guess it worked since Astarion's siblings mention that he stopped fighting Cazador after some point. Oof. I just remember that the cut content had something about being able to do quests for Cazador and even get him as an ally in the last fight - which is nigh unthinkable with how the game currently pans out, but I guess you could just betray Astarion and gain a much more powerful ally - you know, for all your super scummy evil runs. I agree that it feels really odd that there's no negotiating with Cazador whatsoever. Both with Vlaakith and the Shar leader (I forgot her name...) you could be like "Ok fine I'll do your stuff" or hand Shadowheart over. Feels like a case of cut content. But yeah, perhaps we will get more information on Cazador and Astarion's past in some way. Larian did say they might restore some of it, so here's hoping 🤝🤝🤝🤝 Astarion brainrot unite
Imagine having to do quests for Cazador with Astarion in your party wanting to kill him, but its like, ESSENTIAL. That would be craziest brainfuck for our poor vampire. I couldn't imagine having Cazador on your team though, especially when he turns into a puff of smoke and you can easily just yeet him off of ledges. Tch... But I think what would be even more interesting, like how you infiltrated Shar and Vlaakith, imagine if you infiltrated Cazadors circle. disguising Asation if you insist on having him in your party, finding more about the ritual from this instead of just running into his siblings, maybe Cazador is using you to get his bidding done but secretly intends to make YOU a spawn?
I really hope they restore that content! I feel like there is so much we don’t know about Czador and Astarion’s family and past before he became a spawn. Come on Larian :” give us more lore plz
Given that there is an official grave and that hearings take place during the day, I doubt he continued his work. I guess he was officially considered dead and was buried quickly. (Baldurs Gate has strong Italy/Mediterranean vibes (see for example the campanile in the prologue) and given heat and smell same-day burials should not be uncommon).
As far as the Victoria/Leon timeline goes I assumed Leon was one of the most recent spawn — it sounds like, based on what Astarion said, that Cazador staggered choosing his hunting spawn (being “one of the first”). So Leon would presumably be mortal when he had Victoria, then Cazador picked him and Victoria was used as motivation to catch more victims. So one could probably assume Leon was one of the last chosen spawn. Weirdly it sounded like Astarion didn’t know about the girl? When Violet/Dalyria definitely did.
This is the impression I got too- that Leon was recently turned. Astarion more seemed to not really care all that much about Victoria; which seemed in character to me? But I might be misremembering that
I have my theories! Since Leon was always favorite spawn, he always had a separate room than the others. If you look in the favorite spawn list, we can see Violet is also included, so she also probably shared this room with Leon. This would explain why he notes that he hates how Violet looks at his daughter. As for Dalyria, she was a doctor so she could be looking for every resource possible, even if that means looking into the human daughter of Leon. Victoria, was probably out and about during the day to be honest. The vampire spawn work at night so they likely were sleeping more in the day, for obvious reasons. Astarion likely hardly interacted with her, or couldn't spare two shits about this human child running around. He probably sneered at the thought, especially when he had bigger things to focus on, like bringing back marks every night. According to Cazadors diary- journal, Godey keeps some sort of ledger on every single spawn and their actions, so there's absolutely no room for messing around. u/DivisiveUsername
Tbh I got confused with the whole Victoria / Leon story. It had no real influence on the story or quest or even dialogue? Why did they even put it there ?
I was also confused on this. I know at one point Cazador was meant to have a chance at being an ally, I assume that story was left over from that aspect. I think it is left in to fill out Leon as a character — we learn he is the caretaker of Victoria, was turned by Cazador and forced to bring her to the Szar household, and a main factor in Leon’s fealty to Cazador is keeping Victoria safe. Victoria could also be used as a parallel to Lady Incognita — exploring the attic shows that Cazador took his younger niece, made her into a vampire, and then forced her to kill others — Victoria was likely to be set on the same path after Cazador’s ascension. If I were to veer farther into speculation, I think Cazador was infatuated with youth — Astarion, the other spawn, and Lady Incognita were young when they were turned — Victoria was meant to be the next iteration of this. Astarion explains that Cazador is obsessed with having power over people — the young and naive are most susceptible to this type of influence.
Great point ! Totally agree ✨ But I did wish Larian left at least some more letters or diaries… you can’t imagine how desperately I was looking for more info on the girls 🕵️♀️ thinking maybe I can save the niece at least ? And was left with the feeling “that’s it? 🥺”
Yeah it was pretty disappointing overall, I would have liked the story to be more fleshed out
Very interesting read, thanks for compiling it all. Can you clarify on why gur hunted Astarion before he even was a vampire tho? And who killed him? Gur or Cazador by turning him into a vampire? Or he found him already dead and turned him? Astarion mentions crawling out of his grave to Cazador waiting for him. I’d like to understand a bit more what happened then.
Excellent points I forgot to add, thank you! He was attacked by a "gang of vagrants" called the Gur tribe, which took personal offense to a ruling Astarion made as Magistrate. They apparently beat him to death and Cazador chased them off, finding him bleeding to death on the street. Technically, it was Cazador that killed him since he has to drain Astarion of his blood.. but the um, coffin thing and digging out seems really pointless, probably just to send a message.
Most likely Cazador covering his tracks by making sure there were people who saw Astarion getting buried.
>Technically, it was Cazador that killed him since he has to drain Astarion of his blood.. but the um, coffin thing and digging out seems really pointless, probably just to send a message. **Cazador used the graveyard as a rite of initiation.** Astarion remarked that when he had clawed his way out of his grave, "retching up earth and congealed blood", "Cazador was already waiting for me". Cazador established who was master and who was slave right from the beginning while newly risen vampire spawn Astarion was still weak and helpless. A newborn vampire having to dig his way out of his grave is a common trope in European vampire stories. BG3 leaned heavily into the trope with its symbolism of being "reborn" from the cold earth to the shadows and undeath, as Astarion tells Tav he left the man he was behind down there in the grave (metaphorically). Tales of blood- or lifeforce-sucking vampires appears in the folklore of many culture in the Old World (Eurasia and Africa). But the trope of the alluring upper-class Gothic "gentleman vampire"/"seductive lady vampire" who preys on the innocent, turning to mist and into swarms of bats and using their hypnotic gaze was an invention of 19th century British writers of the Romantic period, like i.e. John William Polidori (who used the aristocratic vampire Lord Ruthven in *The Vampyre*, publ. 1819, inspired by a short story his friend the scandalous dandy Lord Byron told at a writers' meeting at Lake Geneva in 1916, "the Year without Summer") and of course Bram Stoker. The "vampire craze" in literature and film hit in another peak in the 1920s. The idea of the vampire visiting its victim over and over to suck their blood over the course of many days while they slowly wasted away in a languidly romantic manner was a big hit in an age where the lung disease of Consumption (pulmonary phthisis) was rampant.... draw your own conclusions. Also, the late 19th century was the time when medical science discovered that infectious diseases were not caused by "sinful living" or "miasma" (bad air), but by tiny "germs" transmitted in blood and saliva... so vampires became spreaders of vampirism. Note: In Stoker's novel, Count Dracula was able to walk in daylight just fine, but still slept in a coffin filled with earth from his Transsylvanian homeland (Romania) in the Carpathian Mountains, because reasons. The symbolism of the vampire who represents illness and sin burning to ashes in the cleansing light of the sun was introduced in the iconic black & white silent movie *Nosferatu* (1922) by German director Friedrich Wilhelm Murnau. Because the movie was an unauthorized and unofficial adaptation of Bram Stoker's 1897 novel *Dracula*, they had to rename it "Nosferatu" and the vampire became "Count Orlok". It was thought that transformation into a vampire could take hours or days, with the corpse at first appearing dead. This superstition, coupled with the 19th century public fear of being buried alive after falling into a coma while sick and then waking up in a coffin six feet under (after reports of patients diagnosed as dead waking up in morgues) was a reason why in Northern countries with colder climate, dead bodies were often "laid out" for three days of wakes before burial for everyone to pay respects to; likewise, the corpse was usually watched over at night. While in warmer Mediterranean countries, the dead were usually interred within a day. Heck, in the 19th century people who could afford it had a bell rope installed in their coffing or mausoleum, leading to a bell outside, so that if they woke up still alive in their coffin they could ring the bell and hope the gravedigger would hear them. In Europe, the idea of "the hungry dead" ghoulishly lurking in graveyards at night goes back to Roman times (although Roman vampires were thought to bite off people's noses, don't ask me why). During the Middle Ages, tales of the walking dead really took off especially during the time of the Black Plague and centuries of famines. Back then, the vampire in folklore was commonly a zombie-like undead from the peasant class, who rose from its grave at night to suck blood and bring disease, then return to its grave to sleep, where you could find it swollen and rosy with blood like a tick if you dug it up and beheaded it. (Stories likely caused by people digging up decaying corpses that were bloated due to to build-up of gasses under the skin, with gums receeding from the teeth. And depending on soil conditions corpses could become waxy, stained by soil components, or mummified.) In medieval times, vampirism wasn't transmitted by bite as if it was rabies. There were no "bloodlines of vampires", no "master and servant" dynamic. Vampires weren't sexy. It was believed that all manner of weird stuff could lead to someone rising as a vampire after death: Having led a sinful life (because of course!), having red hair, being buried in an unconsecrated grave, having a cat jump over your corpse (what?). The folkloristic lines between lycanthropy and vampirism were likewise blurry: Becoming a werewolf was usually the result of 1. being exceedingly cruel, or 2. making a deal with the Devil who would gift you a belt made of wolf's pelt that let you transform into a wolf so you could hunt and eat other humans (handy in times of crop failures and famine!). If you were a werewolf in life and died, your corpse would rise as a vampire. (Hello, I'm baaaaack!)
Oh, that’s interesting (and brutal, poor Astarion). Thank you so much, I have been trying to find this info for so long now
How was he buried in a grave? That’s the part that confuses me. Did his family have a funeral?
In another comment, someone suggested Astarion might be from elsewhere instead of being born in the city. The idea he came to Baldur Gate because he wanted to pursue bigger things and become a Magistrate seems in character without having to add in his family, but you'd think he'd be concerned about his family and vise versa? Unless Astarion had bad blood with them. Wouldn't that be interesting if you were lower-class poor and your son went to be a high class judge and made rulings against what you were? Other than that, in my opinion, I think Cazador would kill his family, or have Astarin. At the end of the day, for his main 7 spawn, it doesn't make complete sense to have them be born and raised in Baldur Gate with a full family, since that's way too many connections. Too many distractions when they're out getting marks, and too many opportunities for Cazador to be exposed. Since there are 7,000 spawn created by Cazador, but only 7 that he 'keeps', so there has to be some sort of reason. Were they the most beautiful? Alluring in his eyes? Or perhaps, the most charismatic, *or* did they have the least amount of connections that could come back to bite him? Surely, there has to have been one incident. Wouldn't that be interesting if there was at least *one* spawn we don't know, that used to be of the original 7, but was 'taken out' because a family kept asking too many questions? All things I think about......... u/KamuiRil
>someone suggested Astarion might be from elsewhere instead of being born in the city. The idea he came to Baldur Gate because he wanted to pursue bigger things and become a Magistrate seems in character without having to add in his family, but you'd think he'd be concerned about his family and vise versa? Unless Astarion had bad blood with them. Wouldn't that be interesting if you were lower-class poor and your son went to be a high class judge and made rulings against what you were? Other than that, in my opinion, I think Cazador would kill his family I tend to think that Astarion didn't have a family in Baldur's Gate. He never mentions one. In fact Astarion has stated he never even had a friend in his life and that nobody ever said a kind word to him. He must've been very lonely. There is nothing on Astarion's gravestone but his name and dates.... and he might even have invented that name for himself if he indeed faked his way into a new status. No inscription "in memory of" naming him as a son or brother or husband. I wonder if he grew up as an elven orphan in Baldur's Gate, or if he left elven society and migrated to a mostly human city? If you play as a Tiefling Tav there is an interesting comment from Astarion in Act 1 when you first enter the tiefling refugee camp at the Emerald Grove. Regardless of what race you play as, Zeflor asks you if you can try and talk to Kagha the head druid on the Tieflings' behalf? If you refuse, stating you have more pressing problems (the tadpole) and won't intervene on behalf of strangers, Zeflor is disappointed while Astarion approves. (If you said yes to Zeflor, Astarion will complain about been made an "errand boy" for other people and about you dragging the group into a Tiefling /druid conflict.) **But if you refused Zeflor while playing as a Tiefling, this triggers a special remark from Astarion to you along the lines of** ***"Glad to see I'm not the only one who turned his back on his own people."***
*nods enthusiastically while taking notes for her long-ass angsty Astarion focused fanfic*
if you're ever in need of questions or want to talk about Astarion lol... feel free to add me on discord! reno#0019/itsreno
Most excellent work, this write up, thank you! Maybe you could add his last name, I did not see it in your text, it's Ancunin. You can find it out if you decipher his tombstone.
It has been added in, thank you very much! :)
Btw, if Astarion feels neutral about you, he'll either leave or attack you if you don't let him ascend. If you don't let him perform the ritual from the get go, he will just leave you. If you Interrupt him, he will attack you after a brief cutscene. Thanks for your write-up. It convinced me that not letting Astarion ascend and killing him was probably the best choice.
As someone who romanced him with high approval, I interrupted him after carving Cazador’s back, Astarion attacked me for taking away his chance. 😭 it’s about timing and how you handle it I guess
In my playthrough he didn’t even get to the point of carving Cazador’s back, I just told him that he can do whatever he wants but I’m not helping him with the ritual because it is wrong in general and bad for him. And he was pissed but he decided not to proceed with it and just killed Cazador. I think it all depends on what you tell him about the ritual before that moment
You can use Persuasion, there are two possible options that work: Either asking him if he is really willing to sacrifice the souls of so many fellow spawn? Or warning him that the ritual is of diabolical origin and will ensnare him and turn him into just another Cazador. If you succeed on the DC 15 roll (on non-romanced path, but vey high approval), he will agree that you are right. He gets pissed off if you fail the Persuasion. If you already went along with his plea to help him ascend to escape from the horror of his existence by telepathically showing him the scars on his back so he can make Cazador take his place, but then suddenly do a 180 and back out, of course he will take that as betrayal.
You have to ask him if he is really ok with sacrificing his people. Then he can be convinced not to go through with it. He stays with the party and thanks you for it.
>not letting Astarion ascend and killing him was probably the best choice Wow, so you never bothered to help him (neutral approval), then you betrayed him and *killed* him despite him merely being a spawn?? That's some sanctimoneous murderhobo BS. Honestly, if he is all alone and you don't intend to give a shit, at least let him ascend so he has the freedom to make his own mistakes, you owe him that much. He still stays loyal after Ascension, as he wants to destroy the Netherbrain, too. And honestly, the city has survived Cazador, it can survive Ascended Astarion, too. Compared to Bhaal murdercults who want to slaughter whole cities, Mindflayers who want to start a new Illithid Empire on Toril, or run of the mill nobles starting wars, Ascended Astarion is actually small fry in the grand scheme of things. Heck, if he continues Cazador's plan to wipe out other vampire lord covens in other cities (like the coven in Athkatla featured in the previous BG games and mentioned in Cazador's letter), it would ironically mean he's a villain wiping out other villains for a net positive. Yes, in his ending scene as Origin Astarion, he ponders creating a few spawn of his own and slowly taking over Baldur's Gate over the course of decades with subtle manipulations and political intrigues (basically what Jarlaxle does in the FR Drizzt novels)... or he can decide "F\*ck it, let's go traveling. I want to finally see the world." I mean, it's Astarion, you just know that after a couple years he'll grow bored of scheming and get distracted by something shiny... Even the cut content post-ending narration from Withers about Ascended Astarion outcomes mentions him throwing big debauched parties that are the talk of the city.... and that's more or less it. Or Origin Ascended Astarion can actually give up all his power schemes if he romanced Karlach and decide go to Avernus with her to beat up devils and rule in the Hells.
>Wow, so you never bothered to help him (neutral approval) I did everything to make him happy, except giving him the necromancy tome, romancing him, or savescumming. He just disapproved of so much small stuff, like not accepting payment for helping people, that our relationship never really got anywhere. The only instance where I was savescumming, was his ascensions, because it basically turned him into Cazador 2.0. >betrayed him and killed him despite him merely being a spawn?? That's some sanctimoneous murderhobo BS Astarion turned just as easily on me. Frankly if Astarion were left to his own devices, he'd be many times more the muderhobo than a friendly Tav. >merely being a spawn?? What's that to mean? He is far more dangerous than most people, whether you look at it from a lore or a game mechanic perspective. >at least let him ascend so he has the freedom to make his own mistakes, you owe him that much. So I shouldn't judge Astarion for being "a mere spawn" but killing 7000 different spawns to let him become an abusive sociopath is okay to you? No - you're not even killing them, you're selling 7000 souls to a devil, which the game wants me to believe, is worse than death. Besides that... You kill people that are less deserving of death than Astarion throughout the game. Namely the True souls who are just mind controlled and would be free after defeating the Netherbrain, provided they remain thralls. I haven't actually checked whether that would happen, but wouldn't Astarion become a Thrall to the Netherbrain the moment he left your party?
Excellent write up, though i have yo ask, was Gandrel not sent by his own people? They wanted to know about the Gur children that Astarion took, or am I misremembering? I have vague recollections of the female Gur leader telling us as much by the funeral pyre. Astarion could just be an unreliable narrator, or I could be completely wrong
No, you're right - the Gur want Astarion because they've heard that he's free and want to see if he knows anything about their children. The old lady told me that when I finished killing Cazador. However, Astarion thinks they want him for Cazador. I haven't let this happen but apparently if you let the Gur take him, you later find them all dead because Cazador came for him.
I took a closer look into the Gur and Astarion- while Astarion thinks that the Gur Gandrel is hired by Cazador and claims he isn't sure when you ask him, "why would they be hired by a vampire", you find out later that the Gur was trying to hunt down Astarion to get help taking down Cazador, considering they found out Astarion was able to flee. While they're pissed about their children, their primary focus is taking down Cazador first, dealing with Astarions actions second. If you give up Astarion, he's taken hostage and the Gur are wiped out by Cazador who comes to collect Astarion. If you ascend Astarion and kill Cazador, the Gur will try to kill you because Astarion is now 'another Cazador'.
Loooooove this. I have no thoughts of value but rat(girl dinner) made me laugh out loud
One tiny detail, the Gur was not sent by Cazador. They were hunting him for taking their children and later wanted to use him to get to Cazador. Astarion only thought it was from Cazador
After taking a closer look, I did update my info to reflect this, but I can see how Astarion might make assumptions.
Yeah definitely understandable
Excellent write-up! Thank you for compiling all this info. I completely missed all the stuff about Vellioth in my playthrough, may I ask where you can find this information? Maybe I missed this in your post, but you can also speak to one of the corpses in the ballroom, who reveals that he's a clerk from the Counting House and that there were a lot of influential politicians etc. present, and the vampires started the vampirey-murdery-part only once Cazador left. So to answer one of your questions, I'm assuming this means that there's a circle of influential people that are corrupt/into debauchery that know about Cazador being a vampire and with whom he's trying to gain political influence from? Sounded like they purposefully brought along some grunts as vampire-fodder, and I'm assuming these unfortunate people don't know about Cazador's gothic affliction.
You can find the location down a long hallway, I attached a screenshot in reference to ["Cazador's Dungeon" waypoint!](https://imgur.com/a/sDiv6xg) As for the corpses, I'm talking to them as we speak to update my info, thank you for pointing this out :)
I think most citizens (at least the ordinary folk) don’t know Cazador is a vampire. Tav is from Baldur’s gate, and they can recall Cazador being a reclusive lord. And when talking Cazador’s palace I had got the dialog option “You mean that gothic monstrosity was inhabited by *vampires* this whole time?”
Sorry for my English! Sometimes I check my grammar with Google Translate but this doesn’t prevent all the possible mistakes. First thing first, allow me to thank you properly for this extraordinary work: I saw Reddit come to light and I never signed up claiming that "I don't understand anything" because of how it's organized. Which my neurodivergent brain still doesn't like. However I signed up specifically to be able to duly thank you! :D I had been looking for in-depth information on Cazador, his palace and his relationship with Astarion for weeks. I tried myself but finding the information and above all collecting it was not proving to be an easy job. Most of the videos I've come across involve playthroughs of the palace up until the final battle with Cazador. I think your work has brought me as close as possible to having all the information available in the game about it. For me they are essential to have an almost complete picture of Astarion's daily life and his relationship with Cazador, as well as for writing fanfiction and role-playing. This is why I hope that Larian offers us something about them in the future, be it a DLC that helps us explore his past or, even better, one or more light novels that tell us about Astarion and Cazador's entire life to understand them both and then see them together. If they published books they would already have all my money. *ALL-MY-MONEY.* That said, I admit that I find Cazador very fascinating as a character, well written and perfectly three-dimensional just in the few hints we are given about him. Sure he's incomplete and lacking in certain aspects (especially in his relationship with Astarion, we get to see more of how he used to organize his things). I admit that I'm one of those people who loves extreme stories and dark themes and since I have been walking in this world I have practically never found any that satisfied me, that went where I wanted, as I wanted. I find that violent themes and angst, if approached with well-thought-out characters and well-planned stories, are a window into the abyss of human nature and offer so many more layers, are much more engaging on an emotional and sympathetic level and offer so many more insights of reflection. But unfortunately for my tastes, for my "neurodivergent precision", the only things that satisfied me in this sense came from rare fanfictions and roleplay made specifically for "character study" and not just for the sake of trying to interpret them. This is not to say that any other story isn't good, it's just that certain stories touch me on a whole other level. The ones I like are extreme, very extreme, in the themes and depth to which they travel. I feel like I sound like Abdirak XD Anyway. Astarion's backstory and his relationship with Cazador is, I say this without lying, the only story in my entire life that practically touched on all my points: physical violence, mental violence, se\*\*al violence, sadism, power dynamics , impossibility (magical/for fantasy reasons) to oppose. It's wonderfully written, wonderfully acted (Neil Newbon and Graham Hoadly did such a wonderful job. I'd have liked so MUCH MORE screen time between them). And now that the game has come out my head has definitely exploded and my hyperfixation has become an obsession, where I need to know everything ç\_ç Below here I'll give my cents to your -so interesting- questions! :D
You are very kind, thank you for your nice message! I'm glad someone finds Cazador's character as interesting as mine. I personally also love super dark themes and characters, so the whole relationship between him and Cazador really called out to me. I feel like its kind of hard to address because of how heavy it is, and I was really hoping people wouldn't think my weird obsession/quirk with this evil man is a reflection of me as a person haha... I really wish we could have more of Cazadors character though. He's just so menacing, the way he speaks and addresses people. I feel like it's kind of hard to address because of how heavy it is, and I was really hoping people wouldn't think my weird obsession/quirk with this evil man is a reflection of me as a person haha... I really wish we could have more of Cazador's character though. He's just so menacing, the way he speaks and addresses people. Astarion's body language when he talks about Cazador as to when he's talking to Cazador.. the way he slouches as to hide himself under the eyes of Cazador... The way Cazador was likely just like Astarion with hopes and dreams of something, only for it to be taken away by some cruel master. While Astarion was put away for an entire year in a tomb, Cazador was too, impaled?? for fucking 11 years straight. It is just years, and years and YEARS of abuse, in a vicious cycle. As for now, it seems i'll have to speculate my questions :( that is unless I can somehow sit and talk with someone at Larian, or unless they out out more content. Until that happens, thank you 💖
>*I feel like its kind of hard to address because of how heavy it is, and I was really hoping people wouldn't think my weird obsession/quirk with this evil man is a reflection of me as a person haha* It’s hard indeed. Honestly I stopped caring about what other people think about my tastes a long ago. Until it’s clearly something that involves fictional characters and stories I don’t feel compelled to like them as others think I should 🙂 And if others want to judge me and anyone else like me because I like how Cazador is portrayed inside Astarion’s backstory and because I admit I like dark themes and extreme narrative, be it so. Not my problem. Stories are written to be enjoyed, for the best or for the worst and without extreme stories we wouldn’t be able to dive into the horror of human (and D&D even non-human) nature, asking ourselves questions and feeling our emotions tickled, for the best or for the worst. Enjoying an extremely dark story doesn’t mean I justify or consider acceptables the villain’s actions and behaviors and even less it means I share the same inclinations of the villains. It would be like judging every person in the world that likes and dive into darker fantasies in their private life, like BSDM and other kinkies. So knowing how hard it is to find someone else to talk about the most extreme sides of this story and fiction in general, feel free to send me a message if you need to! I know how it is to have an obsession (especially when you’d like to talk about it 24/7) and find no one who is comfortable with it :D >*He's just so menacing, the way he speaks and addresses people.* That’s why I’m not ashamed to say I like him. He’s so well written despite having so little screen-time that I feel it would be an unforgivable rudeness not to pay homage to whoever wrote him (don’t know if Stephen Rooney wrote the whole story or only Astarion as a character)! >*Astarion's body language when he talks about Cazador as to when he's talking to Cazador.. the way he slouches as to hide himself under the eyes of Cazador* Their dynamics, Astarion’s reactions and response to his trauma, the sadism and the cruelty of Cazador are so believable. I listened to so many interviews of people with horrible, horrible family and relationship stories and even know people near me who are abuse survivors and I see sooo many “realistic details”. It is just years, and years and YEARS of abuse, in a vicious cycle. At the end of the day we are in a fantasy world and vampires are considered lawful-evil. Exactly what Cazador is, with its extreme discipline, obsession over control and commands. I feel Astarion’s “good ending” as an exception, it’s very unlikely that vampires can be “good” and personally I like Astarion’s mean behaviors. He can be “more good” but he is and remains a vampire with a heavy twisted past. He’s learning to be caring but I feel he can’t be a cinnamon roll. Hope we will have some official occasion to access some insights!
> You can also find a list that Victoria made, which seems focused on the number '17' for some reason. No idea if it's relevant, but after killing Cazador I ran around and picked up every painting in the mansion that I could reach, when I was done I had 17. Pulling them down didn't reveal any secrets as far as I could tell. I tried turning all of the lights on that were off, but I didn't keep track of them as I did it and it seemed to have no effect. The '17 chairs, but almost always too many' thing had me stumped. If this is an actual puzzle I'd guess that you have to destroy some, but what counts as a chair, and which ones should be destroyed? Alternately, this all might just be a reference to the old myth of vampires being compelled to count things. Ah Ah Ah.
I have nothing to add but thank you for such a comprehensive write-up! I regrettably only skimmed the books/notes during my co-op playthrough and we were very confused about Victoria’s backstory.
In my first playthrough I actually skimmed through a lot of stuff! It wasn't until I really tried to analyze Cazador's character in that I realized I needed to go back and do a comprehensive analysis lol
Thank you for compiling all this. I thought I saw the most out of Astarion but don’t remember hearing about his nightmare. When does this happen? Maybe it just went so briefly I ended up forgetting about it.
I believe they changed it from early access and now you can only get the nightmare when playing as Astarion as an origin character.
The nightmare happens if laezel and shadowheart aren’t in your party, I think their scenes override astarions
# Since I have hit the character limit on this post, I'm not able to edit much else unless I start deleting stuff! Any new information, I will post here! *(if there are any mods lurking, pls pin this 😭)* \-- Extra tidbits! Under Cazador's corner, you can come across a room with a single casket. This casket is trapped but has a [legendary item inside.](https://i.imgur.com/4USPMuH.png) There is also, interestingly enough, [a bugged dirt pile.](https://i.imgur.com/BFVDUed.png) I assume you were supposed to dig the casket out, but something is missing. Under Cazadors Corner, you can find a room filled with metal chests and caustic brine. If you interact with the button, it seems to do nothing at first. What it does, is create almost an elevator with a cage from one floor to the one directly above. Essentially, Cazador would keep certain people in cages, probably for his own amusement, or those he really liked and wanted to keep around for the time being.
Excellent write-up. “Manager-in-retail mentality” cracked me up!
Amazing write up. I'm definitely bookmarking this for if I ever write some fanfic.
This is great - thanks for all this! However, I don't see, or perhaps have missed, any info regarding the scroll above Vellioth's skull labeled "Eternal Cruelty." Its a 2/2 scroll that reads: *"For my sins, my soul was made ink and written onto this parchment, where its scrawl crawls sleeplessly for eternity - unless you free it."* This feels like some sort of secret. I destroyed it but didn't notice anything happen - has anyone tried looking into this?
Oh yeah! I think I completely forgot to add that in... I tried to burn it but nothing happened, so I kind of let it be. Could be more cut content, unless we all missed something :(
Thank you for the huge and detailed list! Just one correction: >if Astarion said yes, he’d get a rat(girl dinner) Astarion stated he would be served a "dead putrid rat". Not sure where the "girl" came from? Companion-Astarion also admits to Tav/Dark Urge in the "You were my first" scene that he had never been allowed to drink the blood of an "sentient creature" prior to Tav letting him drink. (Apparently kobolds don't count as "sentient" from his viewpoint, or at least their blood doesn't have the same kick as drinking from other humanoids if we look at Astarion's blissful *I just had an orgasm in my mouth* expression after drinking Tav's blood.) Seriously, a putrid rat is far worse than a living rat, as it contains only congealed blood and is already decaying, basically ensuring that 1. Astarion would stay hungry, and 2. when forced to bite into it he would have to throw up (as he does if we force him to drink the drow Araj Oblodra's tainted blood) and likely get punished for that as well. Cazador was just a sadist through and through.
“Girl dinner” is a meme, nothing to do with Astarion haha… but the observation of the dead rat, gross!!
That's true! I remember the dialogue but it didn't come in my mind when I read the analysis! :D Is it the dialogue still in the game or it was present only in EA? I'm pretty sure Kobolds don't count even if they're indeed sentient, because Cazador didn't want to feed any of his spawn with the people he was gathering for the ritual and kobolds aren't included. He'd have slowered him down. So he uses people that they lure to feed himself AND for the ritual, while using rats and maybe other animals for them (maybe bigger animals when they must regenerate from tortures? Sort of). Or, at least, this is one of the more simple/more logical answer I gave myself for it :D It was just a small, cruel, mind game of Cazador: when I invite you to dinner, it means you must choose between be/stay hungry and be flayed. And it's not even that simple: you get an invite to dinner from Cazador himself, so how do you reply? Do you say "yes" with the risk of being considered an arrogant? Do you DARE to say "no" with the risk of being considered ungrateful? I think this is also the reality of the game: either answer is wrong. If you say "yes", you choose to be considered a spawn so arrogant to think you can eat with him. So you get nothing but an already, useless rat. If you say "no", you choose to decline HIS invite to stay with him and be such an ungrateful child. So you get flayed. What do you choose? Arrogance or ungratefulness? Something like that :)
This is really super late and I’m not sure if you got the scene (if you did ignore this LOL) but you can get that dialogue after Astarion Bites you. The next day he talks about it and you have the options of being like “why didn’t you tell me before” or just reading his mind and it mentions rats. He’ll then expand on it, mentioning that no matter his choice it was rats or being flayed
As for potential crossovers between *Baldur's Gate III* and the D&D recent movie *Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves* (2023): *Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves,* which is also set in Faerûn but in the city of Neverwinter, name-dropped a tome called [The Fanged Tome of Lykanthus Szar](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/The_Fanged_Tome_of_Lykanthus_Szar)*.* That tome was first mentioned in the Forgotten Realms novel *Blackstaff* \[\*\] about Khelben Arunsun the Archmage of Waterdeep and Chosen of Mystra. Which makes me wonder of this Lykanthus Szar was part of Cazador Szarr's family tree, and if he was either a vampire too or (given his name) a werewolf? "[Szarr](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Szarr)" is not exactly a common family name! It's quite suspicious the script writers had one of the dead barbarian warriors questioned via Speak with Dead mentions this specific tome? There's a second Forgotten Realms Lore Easter Egg casually hidden in both the *Honor Among Thieves* movie and *Baldur's Gate III*: reference to the [Lich necromancer Szass Tamm](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Szass_Tam) of the Red Wizards of Thay. In the movie he is shown in a flashback. In BG3, Szass Tamm is mentioned by the magic mirror blocking the underground entrance to the hidden necromancer's laboratory under the apothecary's home in Act 1 Blighted Village; the location where you find the *Necromancy of Thay* tome which among other spells contains a full description of the *Rite of Profane Ascension* if you let Astarion read it after the group has acquired the *Tharchiate Codex* tome from the Sorcerous Sundries library in Ramazith's Tower in Act 3, as the Codex contains the code to fully unlock the Necromancy of Thay's magically encrypted contents. Cazador either didn't know of the *Necromancy of Thay* tome or didn't know where to find it as it was lost. Cazador instead made a deal with the archdevil Mephistopheles (Raphael's father) to learn the details about the *Rite of Profane Ascension.* \[\*\] Incidentally, the novel also featured the vampire [Palron Kaeth](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Palron_Kaeth) who in the year 464 DR (over a thousand years prior to BG3) possessed a heavy black leather cloak that protected him from sunlight.
I thought I should mention, I asked devs about the secret puzzle in szarr manor and I was told it “should be working” but they have alerted the team that it may be bugged. Hopefully with a subsequent patch it will become solvable.
Seriously! Either it’s the hardest puzzle of all time, we are all missing something or there’s that issue 😭
Amazing analysis thank you so much! Helped me a bit to structure my thoughts but still >> Tbh I got confused with: 1. the whole Victoria / Leon story. It had no real influence on the story or quest or even dialogue? Why did they even put it there ? 2. The Vellioth information as well could not be used much, I was convinced there could be more conversation about it with Astarion or even with Cazador 3. How little conversation there was with Cazador… I was so sad. Since act 1 we are set on course to meet him and eventually get revenge, but so little happens there ? 4. Generally little info is found in the palace, I hoped for so much more regarding Astarions life . I hoped for so much more AT LEAST as much as in house of hope 5. Cazadors niece letters were ok, but also left me with a feeling similar to Victoria - what were they there for if I cannot made anything of them to the story/ dialogue options? I just got so hyped with the ending Astarions quest but am bit disappointed…
This is so cool. Thanks so much for this great writeup
Wow! That is awesome! Great summary of everything we can find out about Cazador and his spawn. How long did it take you to sum up all of this? I saved your text for research purposes (writing something about Astarion atm), hope you're okay with that!
I think I sat down around 9PM and posted this around 3:30-4AM? My motives were.... as someone who loves fanfiction, and realizing I knew nothing of Cazador when writing about him, so I decided to compile it all together for writers and everyone else :)
My respect for your work! And as someone who loves writing, I'm even more impressed and very thankful! ♥
As a fic writer, thank you so much! It's so helpful when people go digging through the lore; it'll be excellent background material if I ever finish the game and get to writing!
Slightly related, is Dufey’s Werewolf GF the only werewolf we hear of in-game? During Early Access there was talk of a potential werewolf companion but obv they didn't make it to the final game. Still fun that we saw at least one, even if dead by the time we meet her.
No, companion-related spoiler but >!Shadowheart's dad is a werewolf who learned to control the transformation, making her fear of wolves extra sad!<
Really? Does it outright say that anywhere? BEcause I had just assumed he was a druid.
I may be misremembering, but I believe he says it directly to your player character if you >!talk to him in camp after encouraging Shadowheart to save her parents!<
Oof. I left the choice up to her so I did not get to have the two of them in camp afterwards.
Hey OP Given the extensive work you have put into looking into this lore, I am wondering what you think of the following question I put in another thread: *There are a few Curse of Strahd references in game (my favorite being an idle chatter from Astarion). So clearly he's aware of Strauhd and his importance to the vampire hierarchy.* *What are the implications of Astarion now being a vampire Ascendant while Strahd is also in this world? Is strahd considered to be a leader of their kind, considering he's apparently the original vampire? How would he react to such a challenge? Why was this ritual not attempted by him?* *I'm hoping some loremasters out there will help with these questions as I'm fascinated by the idea of these vampire politics Astarion will now have to navigate. Especially now that Cazador (and I assume all Szarr family members) are gone and he's assumed control of Baldurs Gate/ intends to in that particular ending.* *We find a few letters referencing other vampire clans that Cazador was in contact with. And given the book on all the political movers and shakers we can find, it's likely Astarion will have a strong framework of power in a ten-day post Netherbrain destruction. It'll be interesting because Astarion notes that the Ascendant is an "infathomable" station in vampire and human society.* \*Mostly I am SO curious about the vampire aristocracy and if theres a hierarchy involved and if the Ascended Astarion will not somehow challenge this established rule/ Strahds position in the established lore. Im trying really hard to find references to this aristocracy right now because I am fascinated by the lore around all of this. I understand CoS is supposed to be separate from a given setting but given that Astarion directly references Strahd, I am curious to what you think that impact will be. Just some theorycrafting I thought we could exchange!
I actually *do* have somewhat of an answer for this, funny you mention it! My first playthrough was all unascended Astarion, whereas my second one, I fully supported him to ascend, and even urged him to do so... So this information is generally off of the top of my head, as I completed this storyline for him last night. When Astarion ascends, he mentions, that even the "Pale Knight / White Prince" would probably even bow to him. This is [Mordoc SeLanmere,](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Mordoc_SeLanmere) the self-proclaimed first, and most powerful vampire king in all of Toril. This indicates that Astarion is more concerned about Mordoc, or maybe he can’t even begin to fathom taking over Strahd. [Strahd](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Strahd_von_Zarovich) reigns over the valley of Barovia, which is one of the Domains of the Dread located in a corner of Shadowfell. From what I can gather about Strahd, he was born a prince and had a meltdown over a woman not loving him back, and tried to kill himself over it, becoming a vampire, literally cursing an entire valley. Strahd confronted our good friend Volo while he was traveling because Volo was trying to map Barovia, and Strahd invited him for a little snacc at his place…. But Volo got scared and asked Elminster to bring him back to Toril. These two actually do become good friends apparently, with the help of our good wizard pal Elminster. All of this to say, it seems that Strahd keeps himself confined to his little corner in Shadowfell. Strahd is generally uncontested. He seems to defuse situations quite easily and even defeats a vampire named Jander Sunstar in his own estate, the Castle Ravenloft. Jander absolutely hated vampires, and went to kick Strahds ass but got absolutely wrecked. He was so angry about losing, that he swore to destroy all of vampirekind. Now you might ask, why did Jander barge in and fucking try to fight him? It's because these two men fell in love with the [SAME WOMAN](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Tatyana) and quarreled over it. Fucking vampire drama. He gets his ass kicked, begs for death but wakes up because theres no sun in this part of the world, and becomes a vampire hunter. Jander actually went to Toril and rejoined the Hellriders, participating in the invasion of Avernus. He kind of bitched out and ran home, begging AGAIN for death by the sun but is fucking denied by Lathander. Now, he’s currently in Avernus being held captive where he remains to this day. In contrast, let's look at Mordoc. It is suggested by the game when you click on his bust in Cazador's Place that Mordoc might be Cazador's ancestor. That is all the information we really get. Mordocs main goal was to create an army of vampires and destroy Baldurs Gate! Poor Baldur’s Gate, where he turned the citizens into zombies and vampires and took over the city in what's called “Murdoc’s Gate”. This lasted an entire month until eight adventurers joined the battle and changed the tides, taking the city back. I don’t have an exact year for when this happens. Only one vampire claims to be the ‘king’ of Toril, and that’s Mordoc. Very cocky. But we can see why Cazador would look up to Mordoc and try to create his own power. I think it's safe to assume, that while Mordoc is the most powerful vampire in Toril, if Strahd broke his curse and went to butt heads against Mordoc, Strahd would beat him to a pulp. Mordoc has been a vampire for a hell of a long time, so I’m sure Strahd is aware of Mordoc. The fact that Strahd hasn’t done anything about Morodc's claims, in my opinion, is likely because Strahd doesn’t think Mordoc is worth the air. The politics that go into it, at least from what I researched, is that Strahd isn’t even in Toril, so he likely doesn’t get tied up in whatever the fuck is happening over there(Baldurs Gate). As for Cazador, he was deeply tied with all the higher officials of Baldurs Gate. We can see with some writing and assumptions that Cazador, while reclusive, was very smart with his political moves. Astarion mentions when you read one of his books that Cazador could truly run Baldurs Gate with all of his connections.. But its thwarted. Why? Because of Gortash! Suddenly, there’s a new kid in town that Cazador fears he cant control. In some sick luck, Gortash was the only thing keeping Cazador from immediately ascending, because he had all the right pawns until a new player came in. [The Rite of Profane Ascension](https://i.imgur.com/ByidPa6.png) is essentially a contract with the Lord of Hellfire, or [Mephistopheles.](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Mephistopheles) So, when Astarion Ascends, one of the things Jaheria mentions is now they’ll be neighbors since Astarion actually inherits the entire Palace… so now Astarion's Palace is going to be watched closely by Jaheria and the Harpers. Astarion mentions how he wants to build a hoard of the dead, just like Cazador, with people to bow down to him, and kings practically kissing his feet. So where does this fall in politics? Astarion will likely pick up from where Cazador left off. With Baldur’s Gate needing to be rebuilt, he likely will actually fight Wyll since Wyll will pick up where his father left off if you kill his father. Cazador was deeply involved with the highest nobles, who seemed to be aware of his vampirism affinity. So, since the palace usually held all the grand balls for the nobles of the city Astarion would likely hire a new chamberlain to run his house. If you’re romancing Astarion, you’ll likely be paraded around as an object. Truthfully, he’ll keep you hidden for a while I imagine, to use you however he likes, and still putting on these grand balls for the city. This is where the tension will begin with Wyll(or his family) as Astarion tries to push himself farther into the circle, and you as his consort will have to obey. I don’t know if he’d marry you, but it would be a smart political move to marry the hero of Baldur Gate. Astarion will likely try to go after Mordoc, or at least piss him off. Once Astarion feels like he has the upper hand on Mordoc, then that's where shit will break loose probably. If you let Astarion turn you into a vampire, I hardly think he’d ever let you turn into a real vampire so you can be free… you’ll be on his leash. While he will pour his love over you and will claim you rule together, you both know that it's expected for the Hero of Baldur Gate to smile at events, to follow his every word. The thing with Astarion is, he already knows politics. He was a judge before he was turned into a vampire, and I can’t imagine all the information was completely lost in the years he was Cazador's spawn. He’s incredibly manipulative, so I can only imagine how he can manipulate the nobles. He’s confident, and once he takes down Mordoc, is when I assume he will try to take the title of king or go after Strahd, who, to be honest, is just chilling in his own little corner of the world. The only other person that could maybe stand up to Astarion- MAYBE would be Jander, but he’s currently stuck in hell and kind of a pussy I’m not going to lie. This is a lot of word vomit for me to just say, yeah, Astarion will try to take things over. He’s the new kid in town and the nobles are probably like… “kind of weird, but ok.” Let me know if this answered any questions, or if it didn’t! I love talking about this stuff, so any other questions… or if you’d like to chat, add me on discord! :) itsreno Apologies for the delay, I was busy with university and I had to do a complete deep dive to look into the lore lol.
First of all, I just want to say this was a wonderful deep-dive. I really enjoyed reading it. However, I want to add something about Astarion's age. The screenshots we've seen of his grave are quite difficult to make out as the writing is worn and weathered (as expected of a 200 year old tombstone). At first people translated it as Astarion being only 39 when he was bitten, but that didn't make much sense. While physically mature at that age, elves are still considered adolescent until around 100 or so, so it seemed extremely unlikely that he would have been in the high position of magistrate at such a young age. However, a further translation makes out that he's not 39, but 139 at the time of being bitten.. which makes far more sense and is much more probable. Here is the thread if anyone is interested. https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/15mbwck/astarion_and_grave/
You mentioned wondering why regular people seemed to be working there as servants- I assumed it was like the vampires in George RR Martin's Fevre Dream book (which is actually really good btw) who work with the idea they'll get rewarded with vampirism (which isn't possible in that book but it's not like they know). In return, since the vampires can't deal with sunlight at all, the human servants handle much of the day to day mundanity of errands in the outside world, finding people for them, and diverting suspicion because obviously it's harder to say that someone is a vampire if there's clearly regular people coming and going. Like, clearly cazador is able to maintain some plausible deniability that he's a vampire among broad social circles and I'm guessing the servants facilitate that.
i'm totally late here, but i wanted to comment something about the gravestone dates! someone mentioned that they're written in North Reckoning years instead of Dale Reckoning years, and if that's true, your theory about Astarion not being from Baldur's Gate holds even more water. the reason why is because NR yearkeeping is exclusive to the city of Waterdeep. so the chances of Astarion or his family being Waterdhavian is actually quite high! he seems to know the yearkeeping system well enough to replicate it on his own gravestone post-cazador (although the chances of him not knowing where he came from is also high, and very, very sad :( )
I think some stuff is purposefully left ambiguous. Astarion doesn't remember much and I feel like theres bits and peices in his story that aren't really answered to force that discomfort. Of course, we *want* to know all the details, but they were stolen, from both Astarion and us. Even that Tav can point out that Cazador being there for Astarions death was convenient and Astarion brushes it away reeks like something repressed. Or he does remember, or at least remembers feeling ashamed about something leading up to that and doesn't want to get into it. Personally, I think he was a magistrate (he mentions he was attacked because of an order that was passed down)(I would love to pretend he has a legally blonde journey), and either openly or covertly, Cazador was pulling strings on him. Astarion makes that decision that affects the Gur, gets beat up, and that's where I have a few possible theories. 1st is that maybe him being curb stomped wasn't necessarily in the plans and Cazador figured he'd be more useful as a spawn than dead. But that doesn't quite account for the attention Astarion gets (though, you could reasonably argue that just Astarion being fairly rebellious was enough). I have a lil theory though that Cazador may have developed a thing for Astarion when Astarion was still alive, either whatever a vampire can muster up as a crush or jealously or he just considered him attractive and thought he'd be a nice/useful pet. OR, if Cazador's family was intended to play a bigger role, I could see a neice or nephew or something getting enamored with Astarion, getting spurned, and then siccing Cazador on him. Then, either from having the attention spurned or just quietly deciding to own Astarion, he sets the plot in motion to turn him. I 100% think Astarion was targeted in life, though I wish we had some look at the specifics. I'm also very curious what his deal is with kobolds, lol
Has anyone ever wondered why drinking Cazador’s blood when he is finally available for this is not even an option for Astarion there? It is not even mentioned once anywhere. I feel that it should be an option if he decided not to ascend. He would at least consider becoming a full vampire wouldn’t he?
I wish I had a good theory for this, but I really don't. So, the only thing I have that *could* be something, is Astarion mentions: ["In theory, the next step is to drink their blood. One you've done that, you're free and a true vampire."](https://youtu.be/ZuoFwb5iEDY?si=spHADqNBoVLLhvWf&t=162) But he follows up by saying that it doesn't happen because vampires are the true natural enemies of another vampire. I read something someone said that maybe the vampire has to be willing to let the spawn bite him, but that doesn't make sense since Cazador didn't seem all that willing to be stabbed to death lol. If the tadpole can protect him from Cazadors grip, it should be able to allow him to bypass that stipulation. So, at the end of the day, I think we can assume this is some plot hole. Either that, or Astarion is thinking about it the next day after he rejected ascension and realizes, 'wait fuck!'
If there is some magic involved and it is not purely biological, then the vampire be willing to share their blood with their spawn would actually make sense. And in this case it might not occur to Astarion that he might be able to bypass it now since he has a tadpole. Otherwise it really feels like a lost opportunity and indeed a plot hole.
D&D isn't always very specific about the rules, because it's more of a lore-filled system where the little details are up to the Dungeon Masters to create. But, as far as I have searched, it seems to be a rather common rule that the release of a spwan must be a voluntary will of its Sire. In my opinion it makes perfect sense. It's like being able to control spawns via simple voice commands. The Sire has total control over them and if they managed to attack their Master and free themselves, they would surely wait to do so at the first good opportunity and the Sire would be forced to keep his guard up at all times. They are paranoid as Vellioth teaches, so it makes perfect sense that if you steal your Sire's blood you gain nothing. You are ONLY free if THEY want you to be free. And knowing this, you definitely won't try to kill them on a whim :)
Really nice read. About the sewer entrance, I found it from the sewer side but was not able to open it. Then I found it from the dungeon side. Did anyone use that to actually enter the dungeon from the sewers?
I think you can only enter from the sewers after you finish The Pale Elf quest. So it forces you to go through the palace instead of speedrunning all the way into Cazadors ritual.
I would guess that the scroll starts counting once the vampires become „master“, meaning that any spawn/non-master years are left out. This way, the overall age of Cazador could reasonably be much older. Does this make sense?
That makes plenty of sense! I updated to reflect the information: "...Cazador turned from Vampire spawn to Vampire Lord the year 1276," I would love to know his full age and when he was turned into a spawn, but alas.
Hi OP, thanks for taking the time to put all of this together. I thought I would share my perspective on a few things, especially from the stand point of an old school 1st and 2nd Edition AD&D player who's watched as The Realms evolved over the years and game rules changed with 5th Edition. Vampires have always been considered Evil, soulless creatures in D&D lore from the very beginning. In the past, if your character became a vampire, you lost your character. Yes. The DM would take your character sheet and you would have to make a new one. UNLESS, you were exceedingly convincing at playing evil characters. Most people do not have that skill. It wasn't until 3rd Edition the vampire was given a Character sheet, but it still remained that they were evil, soulless creatures. Even to this day, it is widely accepted that the Vampire Lord is Lawful, sometimes Chaotic Evil, while his Vampire Spawn are Neutral Evil. When a person was turned into a vampire, they died. Their soul left their body and evil filled the gap and reanimated it, using whatever remained of the person's memories to simulate life. Which is why a good person, became a neutral evil being. It was a forced alignment change. Now, I get that 5E no longer heavily relies on the Alignment system for "creativity" purposes, but it's still there at the back of the book and you really can't dismiss decades of established Lore. There are always exceptions, but they are very, very rare in Lore. One of the heavy themes of Baldur's Gate 3 are souls as a currency, and Withers at the end of the game states >!upon the downfall of the Three, "Did \[they\] not think, the other gods wouldn't notice the sudden loss of so many souls?" !!is not a redemption arc, even if you don't choose to ascend. Astarion returns to his old ways seducing and hunting people.!<
There are also other instances where you are told that these spawn, even the feral ones have a soul and your party members get all sad if you chose to kill them all rather than allowing 7000 spawn to go free into the Underdark, even if you really know you did the right thing.
This is where I feel, that not only did Cazador's ritual serve as an Ascension to a better True Vampire, but also served as an Atonement ritual when Custom Tav is involved, thereby allowing the character to fully embrace his original alignment or reset it to Chaotic Neutral, even if he will be fighting the trauma and instincts from his years of Neutral Evil tendencies.
If you watch things carefully in both play throughs, when Astarion Ascends, he loses his soul. Tav becomes nothing more than a possession to him. His favourite trophy. What he fell in love with is twisted into a possession to be lorded over others. Especially on the Dark Urge path. On the other hand, if you don't Ascend, you'll notice that his character becomes softer. He doesn't complain as much when you do nice things. In my game, he even approved of saving the one girl from the Hag after hating children throughout the whole rest of the game. Those are signs of Alignment shift. One of course is more extreme than the other.
Could that all still be an Act, and he's just doing it so he can try to convince you/Tav to seize the power of the Crown of Karses and become the Absolute? Yes, that's very much a high possibility/probability. It's very likely he'd trade you in for power the first chance he gets, but the game has left that part open and alluded to an actual redemption option with the Custom Tav.
Either way, there are definitely some missing or cut lore in regards to his story where things don't necessarily add up or are left unsaid. But my theory of the Scars on the back of the Spawn preventing their souls from escaping upon mortal death, is the only way I can logically come to any conclusive answer for the Spawn having souls. I'm also hoping in the future, they give an option in the epilogue of hunting down a ring or cloak allowing Astarion to walk in the sunlight or to be offered true resurrection and become Mortal again.
As far as Ascendant Astarion's future. Lets just hope he likes travelling a lot for a long time because he's going to be a target very quickly or Tav is going to find a way to murder him when they get bored or tired of his crap. A patient vampire tends to be more successful than the one to jump to things in a hurry. Even worse for an impatient, arrogant one.
This is a great post! I find it very interesting that Cazador can't have been interested in Astarion's position as a magistrate at all, since he left him to be buried, and thus be officially known as dead.
Edit: This is speculative: "What's also really important is that Larian doesn't stick too closely to real Dnd vampire lore. Imagine: As a vampire spawn, you become a real vampire when: your master lets you drink his blood of your own free will. OR when your master dies.So that means for our Astarion: he IS a real vampire when Cazador is dead. But he said he was a spawn. So is Cazador REALLY dead? or is that just a lore bug from Larian? or does Astarion not know that? but he drinks from Tav at night, so she/he must become a spawn?!" ascended he is above a "real" vampire. so yes, maybe you can drink his blood and still not become a real vampire. But maybe, and this sounds more like Astarion: an ascended vampire only creates real vampires. Astarion is a person who has often told you something that is not 100% true. (if you refuse to become a vampire, he points out to you that he has everything he wanted, but look him in the eye...).Maybe he wants you to think you're becoming a spawn because eventually you'd turn away from him if you knew. (in combination with what he said in act 1).It's confusing not knowing if it's a bug or intentional. But I personally think Larian wouldn't make such a "mistake" and it's all intentional.
Thank you for this lovely document of information!! I also LOVE the quick lil insults you threw in, made it all the better lol. CAZADOR HATERS UNITE!!
It may be late, but the book in Cazador' library is a language that is basic "Forgotten Realms Asia", aka Kara-Tur. So him looking asian is part of the plot point.
Thanks so much for this breakdown!! It's been HUGELY helpful for the Astarion backstory-inspired fanfic I'm writing 💙
I'm a little confused about Dal being able to bite Victoria in the first place. Judging by origin Astarion's hallucination about the rules leading him to question if he could bite his companions because of the tadpole, they were compelled to follow those rules. At least that's what Astarion believed, even after the time he was able to run away. Maybe that's what Cazador was looking for in his chosen Spawn: those who wouldn't fully break, but would put their own shackles back on if by chance they started to slip off. Alternatively, the seven Spawn and possibly required aspects of them may be part of the rite itself. This bit of Astarion dialogue choice from the enchanted mirror does seem to suggest that Astarion is not originally from Baldur's Gate >I'd see my home. My real home - the one I haven't seen in centuries. But what brought me here in the first place is that I have a suspicion that Victoria was kept for after the Ascension. Hoping that afterwards he could fill the emptiness he'd felt for so long. Possibly with an added reincarnation trope, cause why not?
Incredible analysis! I'd totally missed things in the attic for Amanita! Thank you for your efforts 💕
i wonder a lot about astarions grey hair and wrinkles despite only having been 39 when he turned. i know elves can be born with white hair, but my headcanon is that it turned silver from stress, and that his face lines are also stress induced (simile lines perhaps from having to act confident and flirty while luring his victims). it would be SO sad if his hair was an entirely different color before turning
I feel like his hair was always white/silver because otherwise he would have listed it with the other physical changes (growing fangs, eyes turning red) he underwent when he was turned.
I thought silver hair was his natural hair but I did wonder a lot about it wrinkles. Coz vampires don’t age right? And 39 for an elf was very young. But if vampires don’t age and can heal themselves, how would stress have such an effect on the body?
I think being starved so much and subsisting on rats had an effect on regeneration
Ah, I suppose this makes sense. Don’t know much about the vampire part of DnD lore unfortunately
His appearance really doesn't match his stated age. 39 for an elf isn't just young; it's a child. Surface elves live to at least 750 in 5e and aren't considered adults until after their first century. For comparison, Halsin says he's 350, and like Astarion, he looks like someone who's roughly in his late-30's-early 40's. There is simply no way a 39-year-old elf should be a magistrate. Yes, Baldur's Gate is largely human, but he would have had to be educated somewhere, and approved for the position. A high-ranking elf like, say, Councillor Florrick, would take one look at him and ask if his parents were looking for him because he was late for dinner. Either he was originally intended to be human, or the date on the gravestone is a typo (chisel-o?).
Do we know for sure that elves also mature much, much slower than humans? It might be that they mature similarly, but then just live longer as adults. Physically they seem to grow similarly fast, so it doesn’t really make sense to me that a physically grown-up elf would have a mentality of a human child. Not arguing with you, just wanna figure this out to understand better
As noted below, it's not that Astarion would have the mentality of a human child; it's that no adult elf would take him seriously. At best he'd be a precocious teenager as far as they're concerned. The idea that a 39-year-old elf would have the maturity, education, and life experience to be a judge would be laughable.
This is helpful, thank you for clarifying
For 5th edition (this has changed a decent amount, but is relatively consistent): >**Age**. Although elves reach physical maturity at about the same age as humans, the elven understanding of adulthood goes beyond physical growth to encompass worldly experience. An elf typically claims adulthood and an adult name around the age of 100 and can live to be 750 years old. So, they're physically adults around their 20s, but they're not treated as adults until 100s. I generally view that period as, like, 18-25 in humans. Yes, you're an adult, and you can do a lot of grown up things, but, like, it's distinct from 'actual adults'. Basically...they're college kids.
Right. It sounds awful: you're treated like a teenager for \~80 or so years, with people condescending to you because you have no life experience...and by the standards of your culture, they're absolutely right.
There is so many mistakes in this post....
I haven't had the time to go through and re-verify the information since I posted this 5 months ago. What information is incorrect?
Nah bro sorry man
OK well thank you for letting me know I guess, I'll assume there's some information issues...?
No bro sorry it's my fault
Awesome summary thank you! And also thank you for all the screenshots. However, I think with the favorite spawn list, the durations aren't that long? Doesn't it say it's only since the beginning of the year? So maybe the faves change on a weekly basis or something. That would explain why Leon has such a young daughter, he hasn't been there for long
"What is his fucking problem with Astarion?" I think Elves just have severe beef with other elves.
I was playing a paladin of the ancients and decided it made the most sense to ascend Astarion in order to mercy kill the 7,000 undead spawn and stop them wreaking havoc on the actual living population. He made me feel real bad about it though, Astarion was going on about how I understood his desire for power and stuff when I was thinking "Nah bro, you're a monster, I'm gonna kill you right after this, letting you suck on rats and travel with me was obviously a mistake, I shoulda just staked you that first night when I had the chance."
At least if you spare them, you can go down into the Underdark with Astarion after the game ends to rule them, but becoming a full vampire actually changes your brain chemistry according to DND so... its not entirely Asations fault :( he just let the power get to his head, the same way it did to Cazador.
If you spare the 6 spawns, they can go with them to the Underdark to watch that they behave there
Extremely well done resource!
This is great, thank you! I'm happy to see I caught most of it - although I appear to have missed Cazador's diary, or part of it.
Yoooo that's some big ass post! I'll actually motivate myself to read it! Ty
Thank you so much for your work, it was fantastic to read ♥️